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Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs

01 Dec 04 - 10:05 AM (#1344342)
Subject: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Fay

Hello,

Can anyone tell me songs which include examples of cockney rhyming slang? They don't have to be fantastic songs for me to add to my repertoire, they're to be used as examples for an essay in vernacular linguistic cultures.

Ta xx


01 Dec 04 - 10:20 AM (#1344349)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Borchester Echo

Tottie, as done by Terry Yarnell. Recorded on Sweet Thames Flow Softly (Critics). I have it on tape and could transcribe it for you. However, if Kevin Sheils is about he give give you the lyrics straight away as he was singing it only last week.


01 Dec 04 - 10:40 AM (#1344363)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: DMcG

This is Tottie, as best I remember it:

As she walked along the street,
On her pretty plates of meat,
With the summer sunshine shining
On her golden barnet fair
Bright as angels from the skies
Were her dark blue mutton pies
Through me (?) old Cupid
Shot a shaft and left it there.

She'd a Grecian, I suppose,
And of Hampsted Heath two rows,
In her North and south they glistened,
Like two pretty strings of pearls.
Down upon me bended knees
Did I drop and murmur, "Please
Be me storm and strife, dear Tottie
With your golden barnet fair."

Then a bow-wow, by her side
Which till then had stood and tried
A Jenny Lee to banish,
which was on its Jonah's whale,
Gave a hydro-phobic bark
She cried "What a Noah's ark!
As through me rank and risches
Did me cribbage pegs assail.

Ere her bow-wow I could stop
She had called a ginger pop
Who cried "What the Henry Meville
Do you think you're playing of?"
And I heard as off I slunk
"Why the fellows jumbo's trunk!"
And the Walter Joyce was Tottie's
With the golden barnet fair.


This was composed, I believe, as an entry in a write-a-song-in-Cockney competition.


01 Dec 04 - 10:41 AM (#1344366)
Subject: Lyr Add: TOTTIE
From: Fay

Thats great, found a transcription in another thread. got any history about it? where does it come from, what kinds of places has it been sung and by whom?


TOTTIE

(Transcribed from the singing of Terry Yarnell on Argo SPA 307)

As she walked along the street with her little plates of meat,
And the summer sunshine falling on her golden Barnett Fair,
Bright as angels from the skies were her dark blue mutton pies,
In me East and Westend Cupid shot a shaft and left it there.

She'd a Grecian I suppose, and of Hampstead Heath two rows,
In her sunny South they glistened like two pretty rows of pearls.
Down upon me bread and cheese did I drop and murmur: "Please
Be me storm and strife dear Tottie, Oh you darling Easter girl."

Then a bow wow by her side, which until then had stood and tried
A Jenny Lee to banish which was on his Jonah's whale,
Gave a hydrophobia bark, She cried "What a Noah's Ark",
And right through me rags and riches did me cribbage pegs assail.

Ere her bulldog I could stop, she had called a ginger pop
Who said "What the Henry Meville do you think you're doing there?"
And I heard as off I slunk, "Why, the fellows jumbo's trunk."
And the Walter Joyce was Tottie's with the golden Barnett Fair.


01 Dec 04 - 10:45 AM (#1344371)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Fay

DmcG - thanks very much

any more info about that competition? whenish and instigated by whom?


01 Dec 04 - 10:48 AM (#1344375)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: DMcG

Thanks for the other transcription - it fixes a few of my mistakes. I think the 'darling Easter girl' should be 'darlingest of girls', though, and "North and South" is the standard cockney - in so far as there is such a thing - for mouth, rather than "sunny South".

I can't remember where I got it, but it was definitely not Terry Yarnell.


01 Dec 04 - 10:53 AM (#1344379)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Fay

Is this right for rhyming slang anyway - I thought the point of it was to just use the first of the rhyming pair as substitution - like not putting the words meat and fair in at all...

Am i mistaken? This seems like an ttempt at cockney from someone who odesn't understand it (say's me - someone else who doesn't understand it!)


01 Dec 04 - 11:04 AM (#1344393)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Borchester Echo

Reggie Perrin (1970s UK TV series)has a lot to answer for. Fake rhyming slang such as 'dustbins' for 'kids' (lids) originated from there.

Once I was touring in Europe with a French Canadian (don't ask!) where we used to confuse the hell out of locals by calling things like 'feet' (plates of meat) 'assiettes' or 'Platter'.

But I don't think this helps in helps your essay...


01 Dec 04 - 11:24 AM (#1344413)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Fay

Not much, but it made me giggle which is always helpful. Thanks xx


01 Dec 04 - 11:24 AM (#1344414)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Shambles

I know what you mean but I am not too sure that I really accept the concept of fake rhyming slang. It is very much a living language that - like all of them - simply develops over time.

Most times it is used in everyday speech folk don't are not aware that they are using it. One of my favourites of its conscious use, is Del Boy's use of 'Ruby Murray'........


01 Dec 04 - 11:33 AM (#1344423)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,milk monitor

I agree with Shambles and the whole continually evolving side of it.

I really did hear a man a couple of weeks ago in a London pub, asking his mate to " Get the Britneys in." ( beers.)

I haven't got the stomach for it, but if you googled 'Chas and Dave lyrics'.....they are bound to have thrown a few expressions in their repertoire.

And maybe Ian Dury too....I will try and have a think.


01 Dec 04 - 11:34 AM (#1344425)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

Rhyming slang used to be common in the Black Country too; 'saucepan lid' for 'kid', 'blue brick' for 'nick' (gaol), guzz-gog [goose-gog, i.e. gooseberry] for 'dog'.

Other local references included 'Cannock [Chase] for 'face' (CRS: 'boat race'), and 'Pat Collins [fair]' for 'hair' (CRS: Barnett [fair]). (Pat Collins was a funfair proprietor and a big benefactor to Walsall in the first half of the 20th C.)

As you may know, it originated as a sort of working-class patois, so you could talk in front of customers without being understood.

Steve


01 Dec 04 - 11:58 AM (#1344450)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Fay

I've also just been reading about the transportation of the language (or theory of it) to Austrailia. ANyone know any Aussie songs with Cockney style refferences? That would be really perfect for my essay!


01 Dec 04 - 12:08 PM (#1344458)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST

Surely its "east and west" (breast) rather than "east and westend" ?


01 Dec 04 - 12:51 PM (#1344500)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Jim Ward

Here's a song I heard sung in London pubs in the 'fifties. There are more verses but this is all I remember.

I'm a Cockney born in Bow
An I tell yer what I know
I uses slang wiv every other word
Instead of saying "Up the stairs"
I sez "Up the apples an pears"
An what I say is true
You can take my dicky bird
I've always been contented wiv me 'umble love abode
An I knows where I'm going when I cross the frog an toad

Chorus-
Up the apples an pears
Through the rory o' moore
back - to - the dear old trouble an strife
On the Cane and Able, I - shall - see
A pair o' Jack the rippers and a cup o' Rosie Lee
What could be fairer than this
A little cuddle and kiss
Then you wonder why I never roam
An when all is done and said I tumbles into Uncle Ned
An blows out the old broom 'andle in me 'ome sweet 'ome


01 Dec 04 - 01:00 PM (#1344515)
Subject: Lyr Add: WHAT A BRINGDOWN
From: TheBigPinkLad

Here's a favourite of mine (unlikely source too):

WHAT A BRINGDOWN
Album: Cream Complete
(Ginger Baker)
Cream


Dainties in a jam-jar, parson's colour in the sky.
Water in a fountain doesn't get me very high.
Moby Dick and Albert making out with Captain Bligh.
So you know what you know in your head.
Will you, won't you, do you, don't you know when a head's dead?
What a bringdown!

Winter leader Lou is grownin' 'Ampsteads in the North.
Betty B's been wearin' daisies since the twenty-fourth.
Wears a gunner when there's one more coming forth.
And you know what you know in your head.
Will you, won't you, do you, don't you wanna go to bed?
What a bringdown!

There's a tea-leaf about in the family,
Full of nothin' their fairy tale.
There's a tea-leaf a-floatin' now for Rosalie,
They'll believe in ding-dong bell.

Take a butchers at the dodginesses of old Bill.
Aristotle's orchestra are living on the pill.
One of them gets very very prickly when he's ill.
And you know what you know in your head.
Will you, won't you, do you, don't you wanna make more bread?
What a bringdown!


01 Dec 04 - 02:50 PM (#1344632)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Fay

Thanks very much, interesting Cream song. Any more info on it?


01 Dec 04 - 06:46 PM (#1344844)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Micca

Fay, if you want a flavour of the Australian(almost) Cockney mentioned above try her "The Intro" It was written by CJ Dennis and Australian Poet who wrote several poems in a similar vein.
On the Cockney Rhyming slang front also there is
" What a mouf what a mouf'
what a North and South,
blimey what a mouth hes got"
For more of this Try here


01 Dec 04 - 07:25 PM (#1344890)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Bob Hitchcock

I think the reference to "Devil" in the Tottie lyrics might be Henry Neville, at least that is what is listed in the Rhyming Slang Dictionary.

On a related note, I was on one of my trips back to UK some years ago when I found myself lost looking for a street just off Holborn. I asked a chap selling newspapers if he he knew where it was, and he replied: "Yah china, it's just down the Kermit"

Bob


01 Dec 04 - 09:11 PM (#1344961)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,celtaddict at work, using the term loosely

Not a song, but a personal favorite (which I think I posted years ago somewhere else) from an Aussie musician friend is "Wellie" as in, "How about a Wellie?"
Wellie-->Wellington boot-->root-->term for sexual congress, for reasons I do not even wish to contemplate.


02 Dec 04 - 03:31 AM (#1345198)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: DMcG

According to this site, Tottie was written by "DAGONET" (G. R. SIMS) in _Referee_, 7 Nov. 1887. There are also a few other examples of cockney poems there.


02 Dec 04 - 04:20 AM (#1345226)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

Ah, dear old George Sims! He was actulally quite witty at times, if you get beyond the fluffy style of his "proper" work.

Here's a good palare website (idela for fans of Julian & Sandy!)


02 Dec 04 - 06:23 AM (#1345268)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Having actually been born in Bow, I'm surprised that nobody has mentioned Harry Champion the music hall artist. In his song "Boiled Beef and Carrots" he included 'that's the stuff for your Derby Kell
Derby Kelly = Belly), makes you fat and keeps you well'. And of course his probably most famous song "Any Old Iron" the title of which refers to an 'Iron Hoof' = Poof (or Faggot for your transatlantic readers).

My father used rhyming slang quite a bit in his normal everyday speech, I was often told as a God Forbid (kid) to "hold your box of toys" normally shortened to "Hold yer boxer" if I was making too much noise.

The practice did seem to be dying out and I believe has only re-appeared due to TV soaps where I believe much of it was made up by script writers rather than taken from the tradition. I think for instance that Irish (Irish Jig) for wig makes more sense than Syrup (of Figs). And might I add Beer has always been Pig's Ear.


02 Dec 04 - 07:40 AM (#1345310)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Observer

There has always been two distinct dialects, one from north of the Thames and another from the south. Having been brought up in a family that were north and then moved south it became apparent that there were sometimes two phrases for the same thing or two similar phrases that meant different things.
Jonathon green's Book Cassell's Rhyming Slang (isbn 0 304 35513 5)
might help, I believe it also has references to more modern additions to the langauge. Not to teach granny how to suck eggs but it was developed so that the police (who were drafted in from the home counties, because locals didn't want the job) were unaware of what was being said right in front of them. To shorten it to the first word served to make it even more confusing. As for songs if you search for music hall songs I'm sure you should find some with references. Wotcha me old brown Son metions "come and have a tiddly at the old brown bear. Tiddly wink being drink so you get a bit tiddly.
Hope some of this helps.

Ob


02 Dec 04 - 08:16 AM (#1345324)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

I know it isn't a song but I also remeber as a child we used to listen to the programme "Round Britain Quiz", most of it was over our heads but it was quite amusing one evening to hear a couple of eggheads attempt translating the following into standard english:
"Nip down to the lolly on the Johnny, get me some Harry's and colney's. 'Ere's an oxford and don't forget the kitchen"

Give it a go. Almost impossible I would think for a non-Londoner of a certain vintage but what do I know?

'oot.


02 Dec 04 - 08:24 AM (#1345333)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Borchester Echo

Go to the corner (Johnny Horner) shop (lollipop), get me some *** and (Colney Hatch) matches. Here's a (Oxford) bag and don't forget the (kitchen range) change.

Harry's???


02 Dec 04 - 08:39 AM (#1345352)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Countess, well done me old china.

Harry Wraggs (Fags), Harry was a well known jockey at one time.

Oxford Scholar (Dollar)= five shilling piece or Crown.

I believe the US dollar was 4 to the pound at one time, double today's rate in fact.

I'll leave it at that as it's time for me old Jim Skinner.


02 Dec 04 - 08:51 AM (#1345364)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Shambles

Are you going to have a 'Ruby'?


02 Dec 04 - 10:23 AM (#1345428)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

Hootenanny, a dollar was five bob (25p) in coins of any denomination when I was a lad (when it was a sum worth giving a name to). It was indeed offically four to the quid for very many years (before my time).

Can anyone quote from Ronnie Barker's rhyming slang sermon? BTW, I see RB 'isself is now RS for marker [pen].


02 Dec 04 - 10:37 AM (#1345444)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Fay

I've been amazed at how much of it has crept inot common language. I'm from Yorkshire with few ties to the south, definatly none to Central London, and I use loads of this stuff without even realising it. Tiddly for example, I'm always getting tiddly!

Thanks again for the info, I'm looking into any old iron now. keep 'em comming...


02 Dec 04 - 11:10 AM (#1345477)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,milk monitor

It is still alive and well in Sarf London anyways.......but like you said Fay, alot is probably used widely now.
Here they seem to have even shortened the slang, for the words used alot. And all the following are everyday expressions ...

"'ave you seen the boat on that?"...boat as in boat race for face.

"I spoke to 'im on the dog."...dog as in dog and bone for phone.

"He's got some gregory."...gregory as in gregory peck for neck.

"Lost yer bottle?"...bottle as in bottle and glass for arse.

It is necessary to drop all the t's and a few h's. I love hearing the newer ones used in context, Del Boy does have alot to answer for, but it is humourous.


02 Dec 04 - 11:34 AM (#1345504)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

Arfer Daley has much to answer for, too!


02 Dec 04 - 05:51 PM (#1345755)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Milk Monitor,
Gregory Peck = Neck ?????? Not in Bow.

How do you Sausage a Gregory ?   Answer: You cash a cheque.

As for being shortened it mostly always has been.

Steve Parkes:
A dollar was never 25p but 60d.

But where are the rest of the songs which was the question that started this thread?


02 Dec 04 - 11:21 PM (#1345956)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Seamus Kennedy

I always sausaged my gregorys (gregories?) at the J. Arthur.

J. Arthur Rank - bank.

Seamus


03 Dec 04 - 12:30 AM (#1345990)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,david diamond

In one of Richard Espy's books is a passage in rhyming slang - I can't find it myself, unfortunately, but I remember 'Down the Frog' as a lot of fun - I have no idea of the authenticity of "taking the cherry down the frog for ball o'", but I it was a lot of fun to read. Has anyone got the original text - it's only one paragraph.

I grew up using a lot of words which I had no idea were rhyming slang - I only found out later. In particular, (and you can save this up for the next coronation) 'take a butcher's at that titfer' used two that were routine, as was scarpa (which I used to spell scarper, assuming in my childish way, that it was a perfectly ordinary verb in english...)


03 Dec 04 - 04:03 AM (#1346081)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

Oh, come on, Hootenanny -- I was being kind to the Yanks! Mind you, "five bob" still sounds like enough to have a night at the pub followed by fish and chips and still leave enough for the tram fare home. I'm sure you'll be pleased to know I can still recite my pence table up to 100 pence is 8/4, and I can still do long division in Lsd. You try telling that to today's youngsters...!

Steve


03 Dec 04 - 06:26 AM (#1346163)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Shambles

A song for 'er indoors'.

Me old 'trouble and strife'.

Tried many things and I failed
Patched up the boat and I balled
But all through - my 'trouble and strife'
You were there to share my life.

Well I twisted and I turned
Touched the fire, got my fingers burned
But all through - my 'trouble and strife'
You were there to share my life.

Well I looked but not always found
Been a long way up and a long way down
But all through - my 'trouble and strife'
You were there to share my life.

Felt the pleasure, felt the pain
I fell off of that 'gravy train'
But all through - my 'trouble and strife'
You were there to share my life.

What ever the future brings
In my life, I wouldn't change a thing
For all through - my 'trouble and strife'
You were there to share my life.

Roger Gall 1997.


03 Dec 04 - 08:23 AM (#1346234)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

How could we forget:
There ain't a lady living in the land
As I'd swap for m dear old duch.


Duchess of Fyfe = wife


03 Dec 04 - 11:16 AM (#1346411)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Jim Ward

Seamus Kennedy- I think you will find that a J.Arthur (Rank) was usually applied to something quite different from a bank!


06 Dec 04 - 08:47 AM (#1348747)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

But Kenneth Williams used to call that the Barclay's, Jim!


06 Dec 04 - 09:09 AM (#1348759)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Shambles

oops!

Patched up the boat and I balled. Should have read bailed....


06 Dec 04 - 11:29 AM (#1348877)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Compton

This is a great thread!!...For years I've been plagued by the tune of a song John Kirkpatrick toted around the clubs...dare I say Thirty Years ago...anyone tell me if it was "Totty" he sang??..It fits the tune I have in my head!


07 Dec 04 - 01:24 PM (#1350070)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Florie Rawlinson

Dutch =Dutch Plate, Mate


07 Dec 04 - 03:04 PM (#1350182)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Sorry Florrie,

Never heard anything other than China Plate. Where did you pick this up?


08 Dec 04 - 03:51 AM (#1350718)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

I did post a poem (song) in rhyming slang which Diz Disley performed some years ago here


08 Dec 04 - 06:13 AM (#1350781)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Compton

Surely Dutch is simply short for Duchess ??


08 Dec 04 - 07:43 AM (#1350843)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

Duchess of Fife = Wife - see above

In the thread I blickied above, there is a link to a site devoted to rhyming slang.

Was the Two Ronnies sketch the one about stepping on a "Richard the Third"? This turned out not to be what you expected.

Other songs include 'Green and Yeller' - a ?cockney parody of Lord Randall, which refers to

Where have you been Henry, my son
Where have you been, my currant bun

and

... Henry, my boy
... my Saveloy (a kind of sausage)


08 Dec 04 - 07:48 AM (#1350846)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

Found Green and Yella in the forum - here is a link
Green and Yella


08 Dec 04 - 12:21 PM (#1351039)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

And "Todd" in that Diz Disley song is Tod[d] Sloan = own.


09 Dec 04 - 03:32 AM (#1351725)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

Clarification

'On your Todd (Sloan)' = On your own

As a Londoner, I always knew the phrase, but it was YEARS before I found out WHY it meant that.

One of those that isn't an obvious rhyme, like China, Duchess, Rosie, Butcher's, raspberry, titfer, or dicky (-dirt=shirt), where the second word is often omitted.

How about George? I heard it as George Raft = Draft (e.g. around the doorframe)

As well as J. Arthur and Barclays, I have heard Jodrell - that must be modern.


09 Dec 04 - 05:19 AM (#1351784)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

One that stumped me for a long time was "kettle", meaning "watch" -- the kind you tell the time by. I'd never heard it till Arfur Daley got a load of dodgy ones. Anyone know the rhyme, or care to guess?


09 Dec 04 - 05:36 AM (#1351800)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Borchester Echo

A watched kettle never boils?


09 Dec 04 - 08:28 AM (#1351898)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

Kettle & Hob? Fob (watch)


09 Dec 04 - 09:50 AM (#1351949)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

Nice try, your grace, but pavane takes the cake.


09 Dec 04 - 10:39 AM (#1352001)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

I would be wary of quoting TV programmes as a source, like I have said previously I think that the script writers may have manufactured a few examples over a tiddly at the rub-a-dub and therefore came up with a load of Pony (not to be confused with the pony that you put on a nag at the betting shop). I suspect that Kettle might not be rhyming slang. There were/are other slang words around the East End which have nothing to do with rhyming. Unfortunately I can't think of ANY slang for a watch at present. If anything I believe it would be Hop-Scotch, a game common to kids. If I had to try and translate kettle" I would probably go for = dish, but this is only a guess.


09 Dec 04 - 11:52 AM (#1352059)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: The Shambles

I think it more likely that scriptwriters overhear many of these things in pubs etc. The 'Del Boys' and the 'Arfur Daileys' are not made-up from scratch. They are all based on real people - and there really are many such people in London who really do speak like this..........


09 Dec 04 - 12:11 PM (#1352073)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

"Kettle" is genuine: I had to check with a genuine Londoner (who would be in his 80s if he's still around), so I'm confident. But point taken!

Steve


09 Dec 04 - 01:19 PM (#1352142)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: TheBigPinkLad

Jodrell comes from Jodrell Bank observatory near Manchester.


09 Dec 04 - 03:16 PM (#1352231)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Barrie Roberts

Red kettle = gold watch
White kettle = silver watch
Harris = Aristotle = Bottle = Bottle and glass = arse
Pommy = pommygranite = jimmygranite = immigranite = immigrant
Constant screamer = concertina


09 Dec 04 - 05:25 PM (#1352346)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

Thanks Barrie, but that still doesn't explain how kettle becomes a watch. Pomegranate = immigrant ???? are you kidding ?

Steve, I have to lay claim to be a genuine Londoner too (East End and still there) not eighty years it's true but fifth generation at least and possibly more. I'm still intrigued by this one.


Cheers.


10 Dec 04 - 02:27 AM (#1352654)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

Saw placemats in a shop with drink-related slang.

Common ones were there such as
Brahms
Mother's Ruin (gin)

but I had never heard of Salmon as rhyming slag before!


10 Dec 04 - 04:18 AM (#1352697)
Subject: All you wanted to know about watches (and more)
From: Steve Parkes

Ok, let's see if we can lay this one to rest. Before the development of the wristwatch, a watch was about 2" (5cm) in diameter and was carried in a pocket. Originally, the pocket was in the breeches waistband, and was called a fob pocket; nowadays, it's more likely to be a waistcoat (vest) pocket. The watch was a chain, which stopped it falling out and made it easier to draw the watch from the pocket. "Fob" these days usually refers to an ornament on the chain, but at one time the watch was known as the fob. "Kettle and hob" = "fob", QED.

BTW, "Hob" means a hotplate, from asociation with the Devil and the place with all the flames, in the days when the stove would have a fire inside it.

Steve


10 Dec 04 - 11:01 AM (#1353053)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Nigel Parsons

Mention above of "Arfur Daley", the song (with a partial translation) can be found Here

Nigel


13 Dec 04 - 09:11 AM (#1355531)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

As to whether it is still used - the Togmeister used two on his program only this morning, i.e. dicky for shirt, and berk. This is, of course, short for Berkely Hunt (and he's not even English, let alone London).


13 Dec 04 - 09:55 AM (#1355553)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Moleskin Joe

There is a lot of rhyming slang in Glasgow, much of it ephemeral and much of it local as in London. e.g.
radio rental               highland dancer greengages soapy bubble
liza minelli
callard & bowsers
desmond hacket
hampden roar
corned beef
gregory pecks
melvyn bragg
borassic lint
donald duck
jackanory
picadilly
winners & losers


13 Dec 04 - 11:18 AM (#1355626)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

boracic & lint (skint)
(Spelling Note: boracic. a. pertaining to or derived from borax. boracic acid)

Gregory Peck
are both associated with London, many of the others look modern and somewhat 'impolite'?

Jacob's (crackers, I think) has recently been publicised - how old is it?

Another one I remember being much used at school was 'half-inched'


13 Dec 04 - 01:12 PM (#1355758)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Moleskin Joe

None of the ones I referred to are impolite - the translations are
mental,telly,trousers,jacket,score,deef,trousers(kecks),fag,skint,luck,story,chilly,troosers,chancer,wages,trouble.
There are other more vulgar and non PC ones which I wouldn't think of putting on a family site. And thanks Pavane for the orthographical correction.
Good Luck,
MJ


14 Dec 04 - 04:19 AM (#1356349)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

'Boracic' is always pronounced 'brassic', at least where I come from. (And note the present tense!)

Steve


14 Dec 04 - 04:28 AM (#1356352)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,milk monitor

Here too.....I always thought it was to do with having no brass, never knew the boracic link. Live and learn.


04 Jan 05 - 11:58 PM (#1371690)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: dick greenhaus

Re "Berk"--I've heard that derivation for years, but don't the English
pronounce "Berkeley" as "Barkley"?


05 Jan 05 - 02:48 AM (#1371763)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

Yes - but for how long? The Cockney accent has changed substantially since the days of Dickens, when one of its features was the exchange of V and W (e.g. werry instead of very). There are cockney songs of this style in broadsides of the era - see All around my hat, which starts:

"All around my hat I Vear a green Villow"
and then mentions "Wegitables"


Incidentally, I don't know how old Rhyming Slang actually is, but I have scoured the Bodleian collection without, so far, finding a single example in any song. Does anyone have an earliest recorded date?


05 Jan 05 - 04:22 AM (#1371802)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Steve Parkes

It seems to have started around 1850, as this book indicates.


05 Jan 05 - 05:39 AM (#1371836)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,Hootenanny

In reply to Dick Greenhaus:

In my part of the East End it's not Berkeley Hunt, but Berkshire Hunt.
The English people that pronounce it the way you indicate are what would have been referred to as 'toffs' and would not (generally) have used rhyming slang.
One nit picking correction to a reference above to "Boracic & Lint", there is no "&", it is Boracic Lint, something we war time kids were quite familiar with in both senses.

H.


05 Jan 05 - 05:40 AM (#1371837)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

Interesting. I wonder if it mentions this site, which DOES have a reverse lookup, (English to slang) unlike the book.

dick'n'Arry

(A lot of the entries here look a bit contrived though)

So does anyone have details of the earliest SONG containing rhyming slang?


05 Jan 05 - 06:53 AM (#1371862)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: EagleWing

Pavane says "Yes - but for how long? The Cockney accent has changed substantially since the days of Dickens, when one of its features was the exchange of V and W (e.g. werry instead of very)."

Hence the Parody "Villikins and his Dinah" from the original William and Dinah (The original was so awful, apparently, that the parody lived on after the original was forgotten).

Harking back to "Tottie" -
"In me east and west Dan Cupid shot a dart and left it there" is the version I learnt. Also "sunny south" & "Henry Meville" is what my source has.

Frank L.


05 Jan 05 - 07:14 AM (#1371877)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: pavane

The earliest version (of William and Dinah) I have seen is a broadside entitled 'William and DIANA' dated sometime before 1820, in the Bodleian ballad library.

The awfulness of the original was mentioned in Stephen Sedley's collection (The Seeds of Love, I think it was). Was he the first to make that comment?


05 Jan 05 - 04:50 PM (#1372366)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Fay

This is tied to my other thread asking for pre blackface songs, but as this thread is still current I'll repeat Pavane's question:


"So does anyone have details of the earliest SONG containing rhyming slang?"


06 Jan 05 - 02:37 PM (#1373019)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: ard mhacha

When in London I worked with an old cockney who used lots of film star names as slang, you`re a bit of a Stewart Granger, pass me the Anna Mae Wongs, and one for the real cockneys, Alligators?.


06 Jan 05 - 02:54 PM (#1373043)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Manitas_at_home

Alligators and crocodiles?


06 Jan 05 - 02:57 PM (#1373050)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: EagleWing

"The awfulness of the original was mentioned in Stephen Sedley's collection (The Seeds of Love, I think it was). Was he the first to make that comment?"

It was my immediate source, but I suspect that he was in a fairly long line of commentators.

Frank L.


06 Jan 05 - 03:08 PM (#1373064)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: ard mhacha

Manitas, Alligators were taters, [potatoes], Anna Mae Wongs was the Tongs, used for grappling the hot coke, and of course Stewart Granger = stranger.
Betty Grable =stable, Mae West=vest, George Raft =draft, Clarke Gable =table.
Council houses was trousers. Whistle and flute = suit.


06 Jan 05 - 03:20 PM (#1373077)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Dani

Anyone catch "Ocean's Twelve"? There's a reference one of the characters (with a Cockney accent, near as I can tell) makes reference to the fact that there's going to be "Barney". "What?!" "Barney... Rubble...., Trouble, Mite"!

Dani


07 Jan 05 - 01:27 PM (#1373795)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: TheBigPinkLad

There's also a much older but similar meaning of 'Barney' from "Barn Owl" to "row" as in "They had a barney and fell out."


07 Jan 05 - 02:07 PM (#1373853)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Megan L

moleskin joe you forgot the much lamented auld glasgow ice rink (crossmaloof)


04 Jan 06 - 05:24 AM (#1640980)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,cobra

Ian Dury once did the late night prayer slot on London ITV, back in the seventies. You know, the god slot they used to have before the white dot kicked in at about half eleven, gawdsake! Anyway, he did the "taxi Drivers' Prayer" - (straight) face to camera:-

"Our Father what are in 'Endon, 'Arrow be thy name, they Kingston come thy Wimbledon in Erith as it is in 'Eaven.....

(I forget the rest)..

.......For ever and ever, Crouch End"


04 Jan 06 - 07:41 AM (#1641023)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: GUEST,pavane in Amsterdam

Yes, maybe, but not rhyming slang...


06 Sep 08 - 12:35 PM (#2432670)
Subject: RE: Lyr Req: cockney rhyming slang songs
From: Jim Dixon

I posted a song in 2004 that has lots of slang in it that I don't understand. It might be rhyming slang. I'd appreciate a translation/explanation.

See here: Lyr Add: The Wife, the Lodger, and I