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Music Police After Doctors

25 Sep 03 - 07:47 PM (#1024847)
Subject: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

The Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada, which collects royalties for musicians, is warning dentists, chiropracters, doctors and opticians who play music during working hours that they will need a licence to do so. The Copyright Board of Canada requires business users of copyright material to pay licence fees.
"It is a serious business," said SOCAN chief Andre LeBel. When music is played to augment a business or the atmosphere of that business, the rules kick in.
Businesses that fail to play their music by the rules are subject to penalties under federal law, including punitive damages, that can range up to $50,000.
Officials with both the Retail Council of Canada and the Canadian Federation of Independent Business said their organizations have advised their members to obey the law.

Story in Calgary Herald, byline Geoffrey Scotton, Wednesday, Sept. 24, 2003.

Ahhh, blessed silence in the offices and stores may result.

25 Sep 03 - 07:52 PM (#1024851)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: GUEST,heric

I noticed on a recent trip to Sea World, where I once wondered what they paid Disney in royalties for the background music, that they were now playing tapes filled with songs written by Elton John and sung by someone who sounded just like Elton John, or written by/sounded like Billy Joel, or Johnny Cougar, and so forth.

25 Sep 03 - 07:56 PM (#1024855)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: McGrath of Harlow

Maybe there's an opening for folk musicians here...

In the old days, before anaesthetics came along, I believe dentists used to have people play loud music while they worked. Not so much to calm the patient, I believe, to cover the screams.

25 Sep 03 - 08:03 PM (#1024857)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: Donuel

They could be working in their spare time
or it could be for the recieptionist's personal enjoyment.

Will I need a license to overhear recorded music?

I don't think one could prove that the playing of CCR's 'Bad moon on the rise' is for a patient's therapeutic benefit as they enter the sleep of anesthesia.

25 Sep 03 - 08:18 PM (#1024870)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: GUEST,heric

Don that happened to me!! I was getting nitrous at the oral surgeon's office. The way I can tell whether they've got me mixed just right is if I hear a "reverb" on the muzak. And yes, "there there is there is is a bad is bad bad" was the song playing in the background (don't know if was actually Fogerty singing it)

25 Sep 03 - 08:28 PM (#1024878)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: Donuel

It could have been the parody version you heard that sounds authentic but the lyrics have been changed to "There's a bathroom on the right"

25 Sep 03 - 08:34 PM (#1024881)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: Noreen

I've never been to a dentists, doctors or opticians where they play music during working hours, thank goodness.

25 Sep 03 - 08:46 PM (#1024890)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: Barry Finn

So if it's played from a radio do they double dip & collect royalties twice or if it's played off a CD that the doc just bought (from which the artist is payed for) or from a CD that an artist who covered someone elses material & has to pay royalties on that, does the Society of Composers, Authors and Music Publishers of Canada now get a triple tip? We are fast becoming a cultureless society. I hear that pretty soon they're going after the creative gene in people's DNA & are looking to collect on anything that the artist may or may not create in the future, as long as they can first take possession of that gene. As to how they're going to do that, I don't know but if there's a buck there to be made you can bet 10,000 to 1 that eventually they'll own us all. In which case by then, our hearts, minds & souls will belong to the government & there'll be all kinds of partnerships & different bodies in different beds making hay & pay under the sheets. Hell, they're already in our bedrooms. Soon enough we'll all be on scanner 24/7. How in the world did I get from where I started to where I finished in 2 easy steps?


25 Sep 03 - 10:26 PM (#1024933)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: Joybell

Bring back the barber-shop quartets. We had Dr. Edelman here in Australia for a while. He had grand pianos in his waiting rooms. Had a chain of surgeries too. Only the very wealthy could afford to go to him. Fell foul of the law after a short while - not because of the pianos though.

25 Sep 03 - 10:53 PM (#1024938)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: Bee-dubya-ell

Of course, if your business uses a music subscription service, like Muzak, you don't have to pay any separate royalty fees because they're included in your monthly subscription fees. And increased enforcement means that a number of businesses will probably say, "Screw it! If we're gonna have to write a check every month we might as well just get Muzak and let them worry about it."

Can anyone say "collusion"?

How about "bribery"?

25 Sep 03 - 11:26 PM (#1024954)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: The Fooles Troupe

When I was working for Telstra some years ago, many offices used to have a CD player plugged into the answering machine before the similar fuss hit. So Telstra organised "Official CD's" on which the Royalties for this purpose were organised, and no other CD's were allowed to be played in the machine...

And say, are "Royalties" still collected in the USA? I thought they had a War about that, and tea, and all .... :-)

Yes, Joybell,
the original barbers used to pull teeth too didn't they?

Say McGrath,
Now I know where I can play my Acoustic Four-Guitar Piano-Accordion



26 Sep 03 - 12:25 AM (#1024973)
Subject: RE: BS: Music Police After Doctors
From: Sorcha

My dentist only plays the Christian Radio Network. Thank the Goddess I can't hear it. My Dr. Office has nothing....

26 Sep 03 - 04:09 AM (#1025056)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: MBSLynne

It would be such a relief to go shopping without having "music" thrown at you wherever you go. Not that I mind the music as such, but there is such a wide variety of taste in music that what pleases some must annoy others. I get really irritated when I go swimming at our local pool to have music that I really dislike played at me TOO LOUD.

Perhaps all the dentists, doctors etc should start singing themselves. It may take our mind off what's going on!

26 Sep 03 - 12:30 PM (#1025153)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: GUEST,MMario

I know that according to the regulations that ASCAP and BMI fees are due in the US based on number of speakers, distance of speakers from base unit; etc. if radio is piped to more then a single room for example then ASCAP and BMI can collect fees. These are "performance fees"

Playing of CD's likewise. The fees already payed on the CD's are "mechanical copyright" which is a whole different ballgame.

26 Sep 03 - 12:47 PM (#1025163)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: GUEST,petr

they were also trying to collect fees from scout camps
for singing campfire songs.
music nazis.
the industry ought to die.
lets face the music industry made a killing when everyone upgraded to cds (the price went up then too - even though the production costs came down) so everyone bought their collections all over again
along with re-releases of greatest hits etc.
the success rate of promoters of pop musicians is maybe 1 in 10 and what youre promoting is lowest common denominator stuff anyway.

now my dentist has a tv on the ceiling, I wonder if royalties should be paid on that? what about the magazines in the waiting room
surely the magazine industry should protest.

26 Sep 03 - 02:28 PM (#1025234)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: Mooh

Oh well, at least lawyers will benefit.

I generally wear my discman at work and luckily there's rarely competition from the coworkers. My doctor could doubtless afford to hire one of my combos for live performance during working hours.

Socan blows. Will I have to pay when I play an example for a guuitar student?

Oh brother.


26 Sep 03 - 03:05 PM (#1025253)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)

Hmmm, last month when I brought my son to the oral surgeon for his wisdom teeth, my cd from my last concert was playing!! (His wife is in the chorus). Should I demand big bucks? Naaah.

26 Sep 03 - 03:54 PM (#1025273)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: M.Ted

The thing about the fees is, no matter what CD's are played, the only ones who get paid are the members of SOCAN--incidentally, Society of Composers, Authors and Music Pubishers of Canada would more properly be SCAM PC, not SOCAN--

26 Sep 03 - 04:00 PM (#1025276)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

I did have one singing dentist, at least he hummmmed all through the work. I didn't mind that so much as the garlic sausages he ate, just before my appointments (ok, ok, he wanted to get rid of me).

Price increase from lps to cds not so. I have the price labels on many of my old high quality lps, $7-9; allowing for inflation from that period, the prices of the cds are quite similar. Paperback novels have gone from $0.75-$1.00 to $8-11 in the same period.

26 Sep 03 - 04:10 PM (#1025285)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: jimmyt

I play an oldies R and R station on the radio, and yes I do sing along with the music. Most of the time patients seem to enjoy the overall lighthearted nature of the office. I did have an old gentleman disapprove of me and the office once, told me I sure didn't act nor dress like a dentist( I don't wear those dental coats either) I thanked him very much for the comppliment, as I sure as hell didn't want to look or act like a dentist.   Last I ever saw him.

26 Sep 03 - 07:41 PM (#1025384)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: Don Firth

My dentist has quite a neat lash-up in his office. Somehow he's managed to hook up virtual reality type goggles and earphones with videotape and DVD players, and he has a big library of movies and various programs: everything from Nova to Teletubbies and back again, that people can select and watch while he drills, fills, inlays, and crowns. Or music of your choice (bring your own, if you wish). Or not. Whatever makes you feel the most comfortable. I'm a relatively new patient of his and I haven't made use of it yet, but it seems like a pretty good deal to me.

I think if anyone came around trying to collect royalties, he'd probably floss 'em to death!

Don Firth

26 Sep 03 - 07:50 PM (#1025388)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: GUEST,petr

there certainly was a price increase, I remember buying lps for around
$12 while new cds were around $20
it was also cheaper to manufacture them, as a printer I know the smaller something is the less paper is used and cheaper it is.

26 Sep 03 - 09:51 PM (#1025445)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: The Fooles Troupe

The relative cheapness of manufacturing CD's Vs vinyl LP's had nothing to do with paper, _petr_ , and litle to do with the amount of physical material.

The whole mechanical process of generating the physical item was cheaper, and the digital recording process was relatively cheaper, and there was less paranoia (and less need for expensive technical solutions) about loss of quality with multiple passes from one analogue tape to another during the editing process... but still a reasonable comment.

And I preferred the size of the LP package anyway, I could read them without magnifying glasses... :-)

Supposedly, when reissuing recording on CD's, many artists find out that they get offered a lesser dollars per item rate than even the original one, although the "development costs" have been paid off.

And then there are many stories about artists getting almost nothing, when they find out just what is deducted from their "payment" as "costs"... even end up owing the company...

"I owe my soul to the company store!"

"I load 16 tons..."


27 Sep 03 - 01:48 AM (#1025508)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: Gurney

Here's an opportunity! If all the pro's among us bought a CD recorder, then circulated among dentists doing live gigs of traditional music and letting the dentist record it himself as part of the fee....

OK, but it is at least benign lunacy.

27 Sep 03 - 10:22 AM (#1025610)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex

The OP is obviously specific to Canadian law but English law is similar.

As long as royalties are distributed equitably (that's another story of course) then I see no reason why businesses should expect the benefit of musian's work without paying.

27 Sep 03 - 11:35 AM (#1025636)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: The Fooles Troupe

Peter from Essex
sorry, I was too subtle

"Royalties" are payable to "The Crown"...
an English term originally... :-)


28 Sep 03 - 02:35 AM (#1025703)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: mouldy

Not that I wish to lower the tone and add "too much information", but when the doc was stitching up my nether regions after sprog #1, he was humming "Zip a de do dah!"

My doctors' surgery occasionally has Radio 2 in the waiting room - usually at off-peak times. The dentist has a TV in his upstairs waiting room, which feeds the usual daytime rubbish into you. Must be wanting to save on anaesthetics! I'll have a sneaky look for a PRS sticker next time. The hairdresser has one so that she can play the radio all day.


28 Sep 03 - 02:31 PM (#1025851)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: John P

The doctors who have TVs in their waiting rooms are probably being paid to have it there by some other company who is paying any royalties involved. The doctor is selling you to this other company so they can pump ads into you in a place where you can't get away. Why else would anyone subject their customers to bad TV?

As for businesses playing music for their customers, of course they should pay for it. I, for one, don't like the idea of others using my work without paying for it. The problem is in the way the royalty companies divide up the money, not in the fact that they collect it in the first place.

Going after boy scout camps for songs around the campfire seems like going a bit far. The boy scouts could get around that by either not organizing the singing in any official way or by leading only songs that are in the public domain. On the other hand, given the boy scouts' position on homosexuality, I'd just as soon they went out of business anyway.

The store I work for (an acoustic music store) got hassled by ASCAP several years ago for our music on hold system. My response was to select several CDs by musicians I knew did only original or traditional material and get written mechanical licenses from all of them. Next time ASCAP called I invited them down to review my licenses. They didn't take me up on it.

John Peekstok

28 Sep 03 - 03:15 PM (#1025880)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Malls and some larger stores here (Alberta) had musak or something like it, but that has largely stopped.
Some offices- doctors and the like, with waiting rooms- and some smaller stores and services- have a radio-cd player. It is these that are being targeted.
Some restaurants had music in keeping with their ambience, but this seems to have disappeared.
Some hospital and emergency services waiting rooms have TV.

The end result is an absence of music, as no one is willing to bother with keeping track or the paperwork.

28 Sep 03 - 03:26 PM (#1025888)
Subject: RE: Music Police After Doctors
From: pattyClink

jimmyt, you sound like a cool dentist. I went to a endodontist who had a marvelous operation, except for the country music addict at the reception desk.   Now, some country music is fine, but a great deal of it is not only annoying but so slow and predictable that it cannot possibly take your mind off anything particularly drills in your mouth.

They began a long procedure on me and the music playing was "I'd be better off in a pine box". I made them stop and requested a station change. They were dumbfounded that someone spoke up, but they gladly changed it. Maybe THEY were sick of that station too...