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I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen

25 Jun 02 - 10:50 AM (#736522)
Subject: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Orac

I notice that this song in the DT does have the author's name.... I thought the Mudcat was keen on making sure that a song's writer was given due credit. I notice too that it has "Irish" as a search item. This is nonsense. The German American Thomas Westerndorf who wrote this song did it for his wife who was missing the Black Forest in Germany where she was born.


25 Jun 02 - 10:54 AM (#736525)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: MMario

but it is highly identified in the US as an "irish" song - incorrectly - but still that's how people classify it.

also - in many cases when a song is added to the DT the author/composer is not known - or has not been clearly identified.

Thank you for the information


25 Jun 02 - 10:58 AM (#736528)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: greg stephens

Utter tosh, Orac. It says:
When the fields are fresh and green Pretty convincing proof of Irish and "Celtic" origin, I should have thought.


25 Jun 02 - 10:59 AM (#736529)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy

this has been discussed and correctly attributed to Westerndorf in a couple of threads by now, I'll link to them when I have time. Info in DT SHOULD be corrected, though.


25 Jun 02 - 11:03 AM (#736531)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: MMario

may well have been - remember the DT as posted here on the website is the Octo 1999 version. it only gets updated as a WHOLE - in other words - it is a static copy.


25 Jun 02 - 11:05 AM (#736532)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Malcolm Douglas

The DT file is at I'LL TAKE YOU HOME AGAIN, KATHLEEN

Issues of attribution have already been discussed at some length. See:

Take Kathleen home to where?
Author:I'll Take you home again Kathleen

There appears to be no basis for the assumption that the song was based on any event in the composer's life, but people always seem to want to believe such things.


25 Jun 02 - 11:17 AM (#736538)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: greg stephens

There's a name for that, Malcolm. I think it's called "the personal fallacy" in literary criticism isn't it?


25 Jun 02 - 11:31 AM (#736546)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: masato sakurai

"In 1875 George W. Persley, a successful songwriter, wrote a song entitled "Barney, Take Me Home Again" and dedicated it to his friend Thomas P. Westendorf. The words of "Barney, Take Me Home Again," sung by Barney's (unnamed) wife, tell of her longing to return to her home beyond the sea. Westendorf was taken enough by the song to write a song imagining Barney's response, "I'll Take You Home Again, Kathleen." Westendorf was a beginner as a songwriter, while Persley was an old pro, but it was "Kathleen" which became the successful song. It inspired several answer songs during the period, and is still well known today. (Indeed, if we can trust one episode of Star Trek, it will continue to be sung well into the future.) "Kathleen" launched Westendorf on a career as a successful songwriter, though he never produced another song with the poignancy and melodic charm of his first major song. "Barney, Take Me Home Again" and "I'll Take You Home Again, Kathleen" illustrate a problem with discussing ethnic typing in American songs of the 1870s. There is no specific reference to Ireland in either of these songs, nor is there a trace of Irish accent in the lyrics. Yet "Barney" and "Kathleen" are both names used regularly for Irish characters, and the tradition of Irish singers longing for the homeland was strong. It is hard not to see the two songs as "Irish" songs, but the Irishness is downplayed: the songwriters portray Barney and Kathleen as people, not Irish stereotypes." (From: HERE, with audio version & link to sheet music)

~Masato


25 Jun 02 - 11:41 AM (#736549)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Orac

I'll Take You Home Again, Kathleen' was written in 1875 by Thomas Paine Westendorf, who worked as a teacher in schools for juvenile offenders. It was purchased outright by the John Church Company, and at first printed in their house journal. It made its own great reputation at a time when the marketing of songs was not highly developed, and the company paid Westendorf a mere $50 a month for years. Thomas Edison loved it so much that he requested it be sung at his funeral and sent Westendorf a cheque for $250 in appreciation. Westendorf wrote more songs, but 'Kathleen' was the only one on which the copyright was worth renewing when the time came.....It may be that the story about Westendorf's wife may just be a fancy but since when has Ireland been the only place with green fields? ... There seems to be some outside my window here in Derbyshire... but maybe I'm seeing things


25 Jun 02 - 11:54 AM (#736562)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Orac

And Greg Stephens can I just remind you of another song that must be about Ireland then..."'Til we have built Jerusalem In England's green and pleasant land"


25 Jun 02 - 12:15 PM (#736575)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Mrrzy

Wow - and I just saw this episode again... Poor Kevin Reilly, misguided then, was he?


25 Jun 02 - 12:20 PM (#736579)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: greg stephens

Er, Orac I'm afraid that was a joke.I was alluding to the Irish having successfully acquired exclusive rights to the colour, as wellas to the song. Were you born and bred in Derbyshire, by the way?


25 Jun 02 - 12:33 PM (#736594)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: UB Ed

I'm assuming Edison sent the check before his funeral...


25 Jun 02 - 06:50 PM (#736904)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Bullfrog Jones

Perhaps it was posthumously dated?

BJ


25 Jun 02 - 09:23 PM (#737006)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: McGrath of Harlow

I'm longing for the day Christy Moore records "It's not easy being green" and thus brings that song home to where it clearly belongs.


26 Jun 02 - 12:17 AM (#737093)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Bob Bolton

G'day,

A friend (with an "Irish" band) claims that: All songs are Irish if:

They contain the word "green",
they rhyme with 'green',
they mention alcoholic drinks,
they involve any fighting,
they are to do with migration,
they are to do with hunting,

(or, they are half way popular!).

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton


26 Jun 02 - 12:42 AM (#737105)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Haruo

The green fields of the Black Forest sound a bit incongruous.

Liland


26 Jun 02 - 01:25 AM (#737121)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Stilly River Sage

Joe Rapozo wrote "It's Not Easy Being Green" for Kermit the Frog. Wonderful song, one I always thought could have another (political) life if the Greens want to adopt it.

SRS


26 Jun 02 - 02:10 AM (#737142)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Kaleea

"and when the fields are fresh and green . . ." has no one heard of the "green fields of Amerikay"?

As Lt. O'Reiley put it, "one more time!"

"I'll take . . . "


26 Jun 02 - 03:28 AM (#737176)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Terry K

The best version I heard recently was on "The Royle Family" when the monosyllabic neighbour (Joe?) suddenly burst out into the most captivating performance, completely out of character. Anyone else catch that?

cheers, Terry


26 Jun 02 - 10:40 AM (#737339)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Orac

I'm sorry Greg... didn't see the grin. To answer your question I was born in Staffs but have lived in Derbyshire since 1973. As for your remark about the Irish acquiring rights to everything, I completely agree. I have started threads in the past on this very subject. I'm brassed off with every song or tune that was ever written being claimed as trad Irish. How often have you seen things like "Fiddlers Green" in books of "Irish Folk Songs". Not to mention "Danny Boy" of course which was written in 1911 by an Englishman with Scotland as the location and "40 shades of green" written by an American ex-con. If I was to write a song about America it wouldn't make it an American song... Better go now before I get too irritated.


26 Jun 02 - 11:31 AM (#737389)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Brakn

Did Johnny Cash actually go to prison? I know he recorded in San Quentin but I didn't know anyone believed that he was an ex con.


26 Jun 02 - 11:44 AM (#737406)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Orac

I think you need to check your backgound to Mr Cash. Why do you think he was so popular there with the inmates?


26 Jun 02 - 11:59 AM (#737417)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: Brakn

According to Cash sites he was 7 times overnight in prison as a visitor but was never accused of a felony. Another site says that the worst misdemeanor he was convicted of was setting a forest fire, for which he was fined 85,000.


26 Jun 02 - 02:09 PM (#737541)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: greg stephens

Dont get too ratty Orac, its bad for the blood pressure. I think of "I'll take you home again, Kathleen" as Irish: its only a shorthand way of saying "popular with the Irish, written for the Irish market"....it's a reasonable thing to say. Not strictly accurate maybe, but it all depends what you mean by Irish, context is everything. Now, calling "Any old iron" Irish was another thing altogether!!!


26 Jun 02 - 02:32 PM (#737555)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: GUEST

Interestingly, this song has been mentioned on the Eldred v. Ashcroft bulletin board in a discussion of the usefulness of the public domain. The post is here (login "guest", password "guest"). The note cites to an article, "Getting Kathleen Home Again", by Richard S. Hill, in Notes, Second Series, Volume 5, Number 3, June, 1948, page338. Hill's article, according to the BBS post, states that "Kathleen" went into the public domain in 1932, and that "by 1947 forty arrangements had been registered by twenty-seven publishers". It also provides the following links to the Library of Congress web site:

http://memory.loc.gov/music/sm/sm1876/08500/08555/001.gif
http://memory.loc.gov/music/sm/sm1876/08500/08555/002.gif
http://memory.loc.gov/music/sm/sm1876/08500/08555/003.gif
http://memory.loc.gov/music/sm/sm1876/08500/08555/004.gif


28 Jun 02 - 08:30 PM (#739162)
Subject: RE: I'll take you home again Kathleen
From: GUEST,Argenine

Thanks for the link to that <a href="http://lcweb2.loc.gov/music/sm/smaudio/7603584m.ram">Music To The Nation</a> website, Masato!

Arge


28 Jul 11 - 10:17 AM (#3197272)
Subject: RE: I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen
From: GUEST,James Dublin

Just looked up the song on the web and it was written thomas westendorf who wrote it for his wife he wrote it 1875 when he was a school teatcher so its an american song not irish


28 Jul 11 - 10:28 AM (#3197274)
Subject: RE: I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen
From: MartinRyan

Hi James

so its an american song not irish

...or German, depending on how you look at it! ;>) Lots of background earlier in this thread and in other around here.

Regards


29 Jul 11 - 03:13 AM (#3197719)
Subject: RE: I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen
From: Brakn

Thomas P. Westendorf was born 23 Feb 1848, Port Royal, Virginia. He died 19 Apr 1923, Chicago, Cook, Illinois.

His father was John B. Westendorf, born Oldenberg, Germany and his mother was Margaret Parlean (Author) born White House, Virginia.

I'm sure this has been posted before.


29 Jul 11 - 08:35 AM (#3197854)
Subject: RE: I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen
From: GUEST,Desi C

Well, I have to take issue. There are several 'Irish' Songs that have been adopted as 'Irish' Dirty Old Town for instance a song about Salford is most often referred to in Ireland as Irish, often in the UK to as 'Irish' In that case I'd agree that it should be credited correctly as English. But in my opinion Kathleen is in a bracket I term Irish songs by non Irish Writer. I'm not sure of Westerndorf's background but he is referred to as 'American' and living in the U.S when he wrote it so it's ridiculous to term it a German song! on that point alone. But furthermore Westerndorf wrote it as a reply to the Irish song 'Barney Take Me Home Again' so clearly the intention was to write it as an Irish song, in Irish style. To say it's not is to say a country song written by a non American isn't country, and as many fine Irish songs were written by non Irish writers, well I think I've made my point


29 Jul 11 - 08:55 AM (#3197859)
Subject: RE: I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen
From: GUEST,DonMeixner

What a fun discussion. Kathleen is not an Irish song but Irish people love it. SO do many Italians, Germans, and other Mutts here in Central New York. The nicest version I have heard of it was in Rio Grande as sung by The Sons of the Pioneers.

Immigrant Eyes is the most often requested song on two local radio shows. The Italian Hour and The Irish Radio Show both on WDWN FM 88.9.
The song mentions neither country or where Grandfather came from but it speaks to all immigrants. The Irish seem to think it's theirs but I doubt Guy Clark cares.

Belfast Mill isn't about Belfast and it is actually called Aragon Mill. A mill that isn't in Ireland.    A little poetic license and the song is Irish. I wonder how Si Kahn sorts out the royalties?

Don


29 Jul 11 - 09:01 AM (#3197862)
Subject: RE: I'll Take You Home Again Kathleen
From: goatfell

Thomas P. Westendorf wrote the song for his wife were Germans or of German Decent. It has nothing to do with Ireland but with the black forest in Germany