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Q about No Mans Land

12 Oct 00 - 07:33 AM (#317076)
Subject: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,murray@mpce.mq.edu.au

There is a line from Eric Bogle's "No Man's Land" which is usually written out as "and did the pipes play the flowers of the forest?" When Bogle sings it it doesn't sound like he is saying "flowers". What is he saying?

Another question while I am on the subject. I have heard somewhere that Bogle wrote a trilogy of anti-war songs. I only know of two. The subject of the last paragraph and "And the Band Played Walzing Matilda." What is the third?

Murray


12 Oct 00 - 07:57 AM (#317080)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Wolfgang

Murray, the third Bogle song on the Great War is 'For King and for Country' (only available on a bootleg), lyrics in the Mudcat Forum: here.

I hear Bogle singing 'floo'ers' which I understand as Scottish for 'flowers'.

Wolfgang


12 Oct 00 - 08:55 AM (#317109)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: jeffp

Flowers of the Forest is a Scottish lament for the dead, played on the pipes. I assume it is traditional when a Scottish soldier is laid to rest.

jeffp


12 Oct 00 - 09:21 AM (#317131)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Mikey joe

Murray he is saying flowers, but bear in mind Eric Bogle is Scottish so it sounds like 'flures'. Went to see him lsat night in Dundee Excellent. Apart from the annoying drunken middle aged bat who showed little or no respect for Eric.


12 Oct 00 - 10:41 AM (#317203)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Jeri

MIDI of Flowers of the Forest


12 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM (#317228)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Stewie

Murray, I don't remember the title, but Bogle also had an anti-war song with lines something like 'My youngest son came home today' ... 'Like dead meat on a butcher's tray'.

--Stewie.


12 Oct 00 - 11:40 AM (#317261)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Wolfgang

Stewie,
that's a song about Northern Ireland and not one of the WW1 trilogy. The lyrics are in the Forum: here.

Wolfgang


12 Oct 00 - 03:56 PM (#317453)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Keith A of Hertford

Flowers of The Forest IS always played, usually before the last post is sounded at a military funeral or act of Remembrance where Scots soldiers are involved.


12 Oct 00 - 05:01 PM (#317492)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Irish sergeant

The Clancy Brothers do an excellent version of Bogle's "And the BAnd PLayed Waltzing Matilda". To your original question, The phrase is the Flower of the Forest although, I always thought it was the flower of the fallen. CAn We get some confirmation on that from any mudcatters who might know a bit about Scottish military music? Kindest reguards, Neil


12 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM (#317529)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Liz the Squeak

It is flowers of the forest, although not a particularly well known tune outside of a) Scotland or b) the military. I don't think it is particularly old, only about 100 yrs or so, give or take a decade.... It is regarded as the Scottish 'Last Post' the tune played over every Scottish war grave or act of remembrance where possible. It has its roots in the playing of the forbidden pipes at the wake for a slain Scottish fighter way back in Edward Longshanks' time - although as pointed out on threads here before, the pipes played in Braveheart over the grave of Wallace snr, are not highland pipes, but bellows pipes.....

LTS


12 Oct 00 - 06:26 PM (#317562)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Jeri

The words of the song seem to indicate it's older than that.


12 Oct 00 - 06:53 PM (#317591)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Drumshanty

It is about the battle of Flodden on 9 September 1513. I believe we were battered but otherwise know very little about the history. When I learnt the song as a kid, I was taught that the "floo'ers" were the young men who did not come back from the battle.

Drumshanty


12 Oct 00 - 07:01 PM (#317597)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Cobble

Flowers of the Forest was writen to commemorate the Battle of Flodden (1513) by Jean Elliot of Minto (1727-1805).

An ancestor.


12 Oct 00 - 08:27 PM (#317672)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Bugsy

Wolfgang, that song is called "All the fine young men" and it is on one of his albums, I just can't put my hand to it at the moment.

YOu could also add.
The Gift Of Years, which tells the story of the Diggers returning to Gallipolli after 75 years.

Cheers

Bugsy


12 Oct 00 - 08:36 PM (#317677)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: kendall

Most folks think I did a pretty good job on my tape of The Band etc.


13 Oct 00 - 03:29 AM (#317912)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au

Bugsy. Please do get your hands on it and tell me the name.

Wolfgang. Thanks for the information. It sounds to me like he is saying something like "fools of the forrest;" but I guess I am not good with Scottish accents. (I should say I know I am not good!)

Murray


13 Oct 00 - 03:37 AM (#317915)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Bugsy

Just checked it out and it's on "Singing the Spirit Home" It's called "All the Fine Young Men"

CHeers

Bugsy


13 Oct 00 - 07:36 AM (#317958)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Keith Acheson


13 Oct 00 - 07:43 AM (#317960)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Keith Acheson

Flowers is always played by a lone piper at remembrance and funeral services


13 Oct 00 - 10:36 AM (#318030)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Amergin

I was thinking about asking a question about the Flowers of the Forest myself....and here is a thread about it....I seem to remember reading in a biography about Wallace and in that book it mentioned an occurance at one of the battles of Stirling that was similar to the later flowers of the forest and it intimated (at least to me) that they were a group of soldiers surrounding their lord, protecting him and dying....Does anyone here have any information regarding this?

And on a side note in that same book it made several references to a character called Blind Harry....the name sounds vaguely familiar to me, but I have no idea where from....anyone know about him?

Amergin


14 Oct 00 - 06:56 AM (#318641)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au

Thanks for the info, Bugsy.

Murray


16 Oct 00 - 04:00 AM (#319612)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Wolfgang

The liner notes to 'For King and Country' on 'Down under' written by Eric Bogle:
"The first [second: Band played Waltzing Mathilda, third: No Man's Land] song I ever wrote about the subject that fascinates me most, the first World War. A simple little tune with a simple little message".

Wolfgang


16 Oct 00 - 07:03 AM (#319667)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Max Tone

The playing of the Flowers of the Forest is not just confined to military funerals, but is traditional when putting anybody away. Traditional pipers often refuse to play the tune, unless at a funeral! Rob


16 Oct 00 - 07:38 PM (#320309)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Jill B.

Folk singer Priscilla Herdman does a great recording of this song on her premiere album from 1976, available on CD.

http://www.melodylane.net/priscilla.html

for more info.


17 Oct 00 - 02:10 AM (#320589)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au

Jill, do you mean the song "For King and Country"?

Murray


17 Oct 00 - 11:18 AM (#320864)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Irish sergeant

Thanks all: When my father was buried. they Played Amazing Grace on the pipes but now that I know the proper tune. I may just take a run back to Ontario NY and Have my favorite piper do it right. Reguards to all and a heartfelt thanks.Neil


17 Oct 00 - 04:09 PM (#321102)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Bill D

here is a scan of "Flowers of the Forest" from George Farquhar Graham's Songs of Scotland published in the 1870s, I think. It has some information on the origins. (caution..big file for decent viewing..225,000bytes or so)

Flowers of the Forest


18 Oct 00 - 09:03 AM (#321701)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GeorgeH

Am I right in recalling Flodden as one of those occasions where the English slaughtered the Scots? Ironic, then, that the lament is now used for Military funerals of Scots in the service of the English crown (ok, technically British . . )

Seriously, whatever Max Tone says, it's only in military circles that it's traditional. Bogle fairly accurately outlines a burial "with military honours" - presumably ironic, in this context.

June Tabor has twice recorded "No Man's Land" with "Flowers of the Forrest" appended to it. The "essential" recording of it is the final track on the CD "We Died In Hell - They Called it Passchendaele" (MAP CD 93004). A live recording of the first of the Passchendaele Peace Concerts.

G.


18 Oct 00 - 09:30 AM (#321713)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Irish sergeant

George; It would be ironic except that the Highlanders have traditionally been the shock troops for the British since the Seven Years War (French and Indian War for my fellow Americans). Like the Irish units that serve(d) the crown and carried The Minstrel Boy (A rebellion tune against the English) into battle, The Scots did the same. Kindest reguards, Neil


18 Oct 00 - 12:26 PM (#321848)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Bill D

curious to know if anyone viewed the file I posted. (I can't leave it there indefinately, as I have limited space there...will take it down soon, and can repost it if someone needs it later)


18 Oct 00 - 04:00 PM (#322058)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Max Tone

The many pipers I know here in Scotland think of it as a tune confined ONLY to funerals, but I've never heard them differentiate between civil and military. i may be wrong, so I'll check back with the crowd at Saturaday's session......rob


18 Oct 00 - 04:23 PM (#322078)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: jeffp

Yes, Bill, I checked it out. Thanks for posting it.

jeffp


18 Oct 00 - 04:41 PM (#322096)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Tattie Bogle

Kathryn Tickell does a great version on her Northumbrian pipes of "Flowers of the Forest", but what also makes it is the slide bass guitar (?Ian Carr)


30 Sep 01 - 04:58 PM (#562049)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: weepiper

To Amergin,
Blind Harry wrote "The Actes and Deidis of the Illustre and Vallyeant Campioun Schir William Wallace" in about 1477, first printed in 1508. He was also known as Henry the Minstrel and lived probably between 1440 and 1493. He probably gathered stories about Wallace and made them into verse form. He is known to have performed at the court of James IV. I don't think you could easily get hold of the text for the original, but a publisher in Edinburgh put out an edition of the 1722 translation/version done by William Hamilton of Gilbertfield, which was apparently the most commonly owned book in Scotland after the Bible in the 18th century. The title page of this says :
"A new edition of the life and heroick actions of the renoun'd Sir William Wallace, general and governour of Scotland. Wherein the old obsolete words are rendered more intelligible, and adapted to the understanding of such who have not leisure to study the meaning and import of such phrases without the help of a glossary" The new edition is called "Blind Harry's Wallace" and was published by Luath Press in 1998


30 Sep 01 - 07:26 PM (#562133)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Gareth

For King and Country - Yes Wolfgang your are correct to assumne the Ulster/Irish conection - but it relates to the first day of the Somme (1916)

The volunteer divisions of Ulster, by an accident of history, were amoungst the first to assult the Gemany lines. Very few survived.

Gareth


30 Sep 01 - 08:59 PM (#562177)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: allie kiwi

Bill D, I'd be really interested in seeing that file you posted a link to. Would it be too much trouble for you to put it up again?

Allie whois again in awe of everyone's breadth of knowledge.


01 Oct 01 - 01:40 AM (#562324)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Boab

The pipe tune "Floo'ers o' the Forest " is by no means confined to UK shores. Can somebody else confirm that it was played at the funeral of John F. Kennedy? I believe it is often played on such ceremonial occasions in the USA. By the way, there is a strong similarity between "the Floo'ers" and the tune "Hey Tuttie-tuttie", the tune to which Burns wrote "Scots Wha Hae," and his song "The Land o' the Leal". I would guess that the auld Scots lyrics are almost incomprehensible to non Scots in any case! [My apologies to Eric for straying from a thread originally in reference to Himself!] Boab


01 Oct 01 - 08:05 AM (#562454)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Adolfo

An interesting thread this about music for specific (and only) usage. In the flamenco tradition there are also some elegiac songs most flamenco singers refuse to sing unless they are going to be sung at funerals. What do you think of Mike Oldfield's version in Voyager? And what's the tune that can be heard at the end of No Man's Land in the Green Linnet Collection? It's a girl singing, very nice voice and strong accent. The context would suggest it's FOTF what it's being played but it is not...Have you heard it?


01 Oct 01 - 12:56 PM (#562616)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Anglo

"...the Green Linnet Collection."

Is there only one?


01 Oct 01 - 04:23 PM (#562797)
Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Amergin

Guest, Adolfo, that would be June Tabor that was mentioned above...the tune is Flowers Of The Forest....

Anglo, Gest, Adolfo was meaning the 25 anniversary collection set they put out several years ago....

Weepiper, thank you for your information! I will see if my local bookseller will be able to get ahold of it for me...

another question was not answered....I heard of a story about the Flowers of the Forest...anybody know it?