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BS: A person of color and a colored person

11 Nov 20 - 08:09 AM (#4079166)
Subject: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Tunesmith

The head of UK soccer resigned yesterday because he referred to black players as "coloured". He did explain that he had worked in the States and got confused with the terms " a person of color" and a "colored person".
   Now, am I correct in thinking that - in the States - the term " a person of color" is acceptable, but the term "a colored person" is not?
   If that is correct, it does seem a rather strange is bound to lead to confusion.


11 Nov 20 - 08:19 AM (#4079168)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler

It is all very confusing, things seem to change from month to month and inconsistent.

For example why are you allowed to abbreviate British to "Brits" but not allowed to abbreviate Pakistani?

Robin


11 Nov 20 - 08:52 AM (#4079174)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Yes.. life was so much simpler when we all enjoyed "Love Thy Neighbour" on the telly...


11 Nov 20 - 09:05 AM (#4079175)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler

I never saw the need for "Love thy Neighbour", those were not issues that came to the fore where I lived on the Somerset coast with foreign crew of ships and tourists around all the time.

Now, Londoners, that was a different matter:)

Robin


11 Nov 20 - 09:06 AM (#4079176)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: sciencegeek

because chattel slavery of people from sub-Saharan Africa existed in the western hemisphere for centuries and under several the rule of multiple nations, it is a most tangled history and word usage reflects that...

then there is both the polite and most impolite ways of referring to these people... and the logic is often quite twisted

an offshoot of this is how the term latino/latina is used... as a person who is half Italian it never made any sense that only those of hispanic extraction were meant... after all, where did the term latin come from the in the first place? but the roots of this go back to how the enslaved native peoples of the Americas had interbred with both the Spanish ruling class and African slaves - and their offspring where not considered to be pure enough to qualify as people of worth...

as for what is acceptable... no matter what term is decided upon, the racists out there will turn it into a derogatory one and taint it with their vileness


11 Nov 20 - 09:07 AM (#4079177)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jeri

In both terms one thing is most important.
"A coloured person" - it's "coloured".
"A person of color" - it's "person".

I think it comes down to pigeon-holing a human or describing them.

I also should say that I've been told "Brit" is offensive to some.

When it comes right down to it, it's about whether the people hearing whatever term you use will take whatever else the know, or think they know about you into consideration, and think you're a dick (NOI).


11 Nov 20 - 09:41 AM (#4079179)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Innocent / naïve, non-racist [usually older..] folks
can stumble using words
no longer considered acceptable;
consequently being torn apart on social media for not knowing the currently correct words to say..
At worst they are guilty of ignorance...???

Whilst genuine racists can cynically conceal their evil
behind a façade of the prevailing socially acceptable race terminology..

What a f@cked up world we live in...


Black belt caterpillar wrestler - btw, I'm a west country boy, grew up on an all white council estate
not to many miles from the coast..

Back in the "Love Thy Neighbour" era of mainstream TV comedy,
that kind of language was the acceptable norm..

Fortunately Rock Against Racism and The Anti N@zi League
sprung up at just the right time to enlighten
my generation of provincial 1970s teenagers...


11 Nov 20 - 09:54 AM (#4079181)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Doug Chadwick

In both terms one thing is most important.
"A coloured person" - it's "coloured".
"A person of color" - it's "person".


It is acceptable to talk of "black people" which, according to the rule above, would emphasise their race rather than them being people. African Americans are, first and foremost, Americans. Their African heritage, while important, is secondary.

The use of "a person of colour" in place of "a coloured person" is clumsy. I drive a red car, not a car of redness. I suspect it was developed to demonstrate the speaker's "wokeness" rather than there being a genuine need.

DC


11 Nov 20 - 10:02 AM (#4079182)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw

The problem with "coloured" is that it was used for a long time as a noun, as in "no Irish, no coloureds." "Coloured person" still carries a hint of that pejorative. It's definitely best avoided. The other thing, of course, is that your car is a car, not a human being.


11 Nov 20 - 10:22 AM (#4079185)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos

I would be offended if I was called a Brit - my idea of a 'Brit' is a loud, fat, tattooed package holiday-maker heading to and from somewhere like Benidorm.

In reality, most people are varying shades of brown, beige and pink.

The whole thing is such a minefield. There is a 'black' woman living near me and we exchange friendly smiles and comments on the weather. I would love to know if she was born here or in another country, and if it was here, whether she has relatives somewhere interesting and far away. But I just daren't ask.


11 Nov 20 - 10:43 AM (#4079188)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Senoufou

My (extremely!) black husband always says he doesn't mind one bit being called 'black', 'coloured' 'African' or even 'nigger' (sorry about that). He can tell immediately if someone is being nasty or objects to his race. He's lucky in that he's perfectly secure within himself.
However, I'm sure many non-white people can be a bit sensitive to how they're referred to, and they have every right to that.
The thing is to try very hard not to offend, and to be respectful and kind. To have no innate prejudice and not to generalise. Every human being is after all an individual, whatever their outward appearance, race or origin.


11 Nov 20 - 10:44 AM (#4079190)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

I have a black friend and neighbour who was born in Jamaica 60 odd years ago came to the uk late fifties.,and now lives in Ireland
She was telling me hat things are pretty bad now in Jamaica and even if people born there want to return to live they are not welcomed but are often the target of robbery etc,
all the Caribbean islands are apparantlly very different,so i do not know if this applies to any of the other islands as well , i do not think it is the case with St Lucia


11 Nov 20 - 10:49 AM (#4079192)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw

I'm not that bothered about called a Brit. I think I must've used it about myself a good few times here. I say yanks quite a lot, but if anyone told me I'm being offensive by so doing I'd pack it in. At one time, on a long-defunct forum, I said merkins quite a lot, thinking that it was a Dubya Bushism. Then someone told me it meant a pubic wig. Tread carefully, eh!

Robin mentioned Paki. That has been used for decades as a directly offensive reference to "Pakistani" people (often ones who had never been to Pakistan). "Brit" carries weak or no really racist connotation, whereas "Paki" has done for a long time. They may both be similar shortenings but they carry very different sentiments.


11 Nov 20 - 11:12 AM (#4079196)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: leeneia

I can tell you that a couple of years ago, a guest columnist in my newspaper used the phrase "girl of color", and there were no cries of outrage.


11 Nov 20 - 11:21 AM (#4079200)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman

When I was a child in the late-1940s and 1950s, ‘coloured’ was regarded as the polite word for a black person, and ‘black’, along with ‘n****r’, ‘c**n’, ‘s***e’ etc., was regarded as rude - that was certainly the case in my area. My parents drummed it into me that I must never use the ‘rude’ words to describe black people, but always describe them as ‘coloured’.

I still, very occasionally, have to check myself when I find ‘coloured’ about to slip unwittingly from my lips - habits reinforced during one’s early years can be difficult to break - but I DO check myself. So, although I agree that it was a very bad slip on the part of the FA Chairman, I don’t necessarily regard it as an indication that he’s a vile racist bastard - more evidence would be required to prove that accusation AFAIC - more someone ‘of a certain age’ who publically allowed his guard to drop, and who had the grace to admit he was wrong and to do the honourable thing and resign.


11 Nov 20 - 11:26 AM (#4079201)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Tunesmith

One of the problems with old people, in the UK, is that they simply didn't get the memo telling them that the word "coloured" is considered offensive by black people.


11 Nov 20 - 11:40 AM (#4079204)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman

Tunesmith, if that’s me you’re being judgmental about, I ‘got the memo’ just fine. My problem is a 73-year-old brain that, very occasionally, dredges up a term or phrase from my childhood.

If that’s OK with you?


11 Nov 20 - 11:43 AM (#4079205)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

"Negro" is the other previously 'polite' word which has recently become an unwitting booby trap
for older folks who are not at all racist...


11 Nov 20 - 11:54 AM (#4079207)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

btw.. I'll just add that I understand and accept why sit-coms like "Love Thy Neighbour"
should never again be casually shown on mainstream TV.

But I will not support canceling them entirely by banning manufacture and sales of DVDs,
or banishment from streaming media channels..

They are, despite their problematic content, valid cultural history artifacts.
Which should remain accessible for folks with sensible reasons
for viewing them...


11 Nov 20 - 12:27 PM (#4079210)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

BRIT does carry racist overtones in Ireland,dependent on context as does Sassenach.


11 Nov 20 - 12:28 PM (#4079211)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Tunesmith

Backwoodsman. What I was trying to point out is that lots of older people in the UK don't seem to have got the message about the offensive nature of the word "coloured". But, of course, there was no memo! No message. Somehow the whole population - as if by magic - was supposed to know all this stuff.
    For example, I'm amazed how many older people - I'm old ( unfortunately) - still use the word "coloured", and on the occasions that I've pulled them up, they are often clearly dumbfounded.


11 Nov 20 - 12:52 PM (#4079217)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

The onus should be on the unPC Word Police
to reach down from their ivory towers,
and communicate more effectively
to the mass population,
whenever they dictate the rules have changed on specific words..

.. or whenever they invent new trendier correct words...


11 Nov 20 - 01:13 PM (#4079222)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw

My mum, who died last month aged 91, always referred to "coloured people," though she didn't have a racist bone in her body. She still hadn't forgiven the Germans for WW2, however, and booed when we drove past Lidl :-) It's always been an awkward terminological area in the UK and it's far better to try to glean the sentiment of the person using the "incorrect" term than to go for their jugular. "Person of colour" is a clumsy expression but at least it's a catch-all that seems to have become acceptable lately.


11 Nov 20 - 01:15 PM (#4079223)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: sciencegeek

here in the states we had a sitcom All in the Family that was designed to reveal the ugly side of thoughtless bigotry and use humor to show why it is wrong... if a phrase came out of Archie Bunker's mouth, then you knew it was a no-no ... he was white supremacy personified, but without the viciousness we see in them today


11 Nov 20 - 01:18 PM (#4079224)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw

I seem to recall a spat or two on Fish 'n' Chipple a few years ago about non-Irish people who play Irish music being called "plastic Paddies." It always seemed to me that that expression insulted both the Irish AND the non-Irish! :-)


11 Nov 20 - 01:19 PM (#4079225)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman

Tunesmith, your post came directly after mine, in which I confessed the occasional near-slip of the tongue. It’s perfectly reasonable, therefore, to assume your post was aimed at me.

I’m fully aware of the meaning of the expression ‘got the memo’ and, as I said, you can be assured that I ‘got the memo’ and, despite my advanced years, I fully understand the offensive nature of the word ‘coloured’ when applied to black people (or, if you prefer, people of colour).

Old I certainly am. Stupid I certainly am not.


11 Nov 20 - 01:26 PM (#4079226)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw

sciencegeek, we had a comedy in the 60s called Till Death Us Do Part, which was a vehicle for ridiculing the bigotry of the main man, Alf Garnett. Unfortunately, many of the more po-faced Brit contingent didn't see the sarcasm, and the programme was often vilified... The "Germans" episode of Fawlty Towers was recently pulled because of the perceived anti-German sentiment expressed by the Major and by Basil which was clearly intended to holds both of them to ridicule. Some things are just too subtle for the stuffy professional offence-takers...


11 Nov 20 - 01:29 PM (#4079227)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy

Also in the southern US it is Enslaved Person now, not Slave. Sigh.

I am agin [southron for against] Person of Color as it seems to imply, nay, actually states, that white folks are just folks and everybody else is Other. Fuck that attitude, is my take. I prefer People of Paleness to put sub-Saharan African black as the default, since that is actually true.

But how about just calling people people and never referring to skin color when it is, as it almost always is, irrelevant?


11 Nov 20 - 02:36 PM (#4079242)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos

In the 1960s 'negro' was the correct word, with no extra connotations as far as I was aware. Things change. It used to be a major no-no to use 'queer', but now it seems OK for 'gay' people to talk about being queer (though maybe not for non-gay people).
The same with 'the n-word'. When Jeremy Clarkson started a widely known children's rhyme but stopped before he got to the 'offensive' word, listeners filled in the rest of the rhyme in their minds - and Clarkson lost his job. But black people can use that word about themselves without repercussions.


11 Nov 20 - 03:11 PM (#4079246)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Joe Offer

Here in California, "person of color" (or POC) refers to anyone who is not white - and it is a useful term for a number of circumstances. The term "colored person" or "colored boy" or "colored girl" is no longer acceptable - it referred only to Black people.
And according to the latest style manuals, Black is capitalized, but white isn't.
It is hard to keep up with.


11 Nov 20 - 03:17 PM (#4079247)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos

Greg Clarke wasn't only criticised for using 'coloured'. He also described being gay as 'a lifestyle choice', which shows a considerable lack of understanding.


11 Nov 20 - 03:35 PM (#4079249)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman

Whereas my opinion is that someone of his age could be forgiven the ‘coloured’ mis-speak, I really don’t believe the ‘lifestyle’ comment falls into the same category (if he did, in fact, make that comment - I haven’t heard or seen it reported anywhere other than here).


11 Nov 20 - 03:46 PM (#4079251)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bonzo3legs

I like a good bowl of treacle pudding and custard!!!!!!!!!!


11 Nov 20 - 04:00 PM (#4079256)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself

I haven't heard of the term 'coloured' being considered offensive in North America - just hopelessly old-fashioned, and redolent of the bad old days. I've haven't heard it in years, but wouldn't be surprised if I did from some older person ("Bill, this coloured guy I used to work with, ....").


11 Nov 20 - 04:29 PM (#4079260)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos

Just Google Greg Clarke and you will find plenty of references to what he said. It seems the remarks were made "In comments to the culture and sport select committee in parliament yesterday".
An example:

https://blacklivesmatteruk.com/greg-clarke-racism-shows-british-football-rotting-from-the-head/


11 Nov 20 - 05:01 PM (#4079265)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bill D

You should have been around in the 1960s... as I was.. when black, African-Americans, Negros, colored people... were debating/arguing among themselves about what they wanted to be called!
I sat...quietly... in NAACP meetings and listened to some pretty heated 'discussions'.

Right now "people of color" is a common way to include any darkish skinned people while "black" is generally accepted shorthand way of referring to those with ANY African heritage who wish to identify that way... like Kamala Harris whose families were from India... and from Africa by way of Jamaica. SHE says "black"..so...


11 Nov 20 - 05:31 PM (#4079267)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos

My experience of prejudice in the 1960s was when we went to a department store with a Trinidadian friend to buy some sheepskin gloves for the cold English winter. My friend had large hands and none of the 'women's' gloves fitted, so we asked to try the men's gloves. The sales assistant was very reluctant to allow this - presumably it would have meant she was a transvestite.
I can't remember any discussions about what she should be called, other than Trinidadian.


11 Nov 20 - 06:42 PM (#4079278)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bonzo3legs

We are all Earthlings.


11 Nov 20 - 07:40 PM (#4079284)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bill D

Yeah.. all Earthlings... who have fought with OTHER Earthlings for eons. Some say that evolution requires struggle and conquest, and 'to the winner, the spoils'. Not a very scientific concept, but when there are limits of food, water, living space...etc, it's hard to avoid that thought.

"If all men were brothers, would you let one marry your sister>"


11 Nov 20 - 10:22 PM (#4079290)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Joe Offer

Clinton's Secretary of Labor Robert Reich posted this on Twitter November 7:
    Donald Trump built his real estate empire evicting people of color.
    Today, people of color evicted Donald Trump.


12 Nov 20 - 07:02 AM (#4079342)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Lighter

It's even stranger than the thread suggests.

As Bill D might have mentioned, the civil-rights organization NAACP, founded in 1909, is still going strong.

The full name has always been "National Association for the Advancement of Colored People."

I've never heard of any serious move to change the name.


12 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM (#4079345)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Nigel Parsons

'Brit' has no negative connotations for me. But I do correct people from other countries if they describe me as 'English'.


12 Nov 20 - 08:27 AM (#4079347)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Backwoodsman

Absolutely agree, Nigel. And I correct people similarly.


12 Nov 20 - 09:30 AM (#4079353)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn

Mind it isn't raelly true that he only resigned for saying "coloured" when referring to black players. There was a list of things that he said that showed at best he is out of touch. Women players don't like the ball being kicked at them! There wasn't an issue of black people being under-represented in certain depts because it was simply due to them having different career choices. And that being gay was a lifestyle choice.


12 Nov 20 - 09:37 AM (#4079354)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn

And just a wee note to Tunesmith he wasn't the head of football in the UK. There is no such position. He was Chairman of the Football Association which governs the game in England. Not throughout the UK. ;-)


12 Nov 20 - 10:10 AM (#4079359)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself

I remember my mother mentioning a few times that 'Brit' was said with a bit of a sneer in Canada during the war years, when there were more Brits around than usual. How aware of this the Brits in question were, I don't know.


12 Nov 20 - 10:24 AM (#4079361)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

I've no problems at all with being called a "Brit".

What I do have a problem with is control freak individuals and groups
who wallow in taking excessive offence at the slightest petty trigger words..

They are an increasing blight on humanity...


[btw.. this does not imply any support for FA chief Greg Clarke.
He sounds like a right out of touch old buffoon,
and has done the right thing by resigning...]


13 Nov 20 - 09:33 AM (#4079465)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy

Me: Knock knock!
Mom: Who's there?
Me: Control freak...now you say: Control freak who?
Mom: Control freak who?

True story.


13 Nov 20 - 10:04 AM (#4079468)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: sciencegeek

in book about a woman who taught native Americans back in the 1930's and had negative encounters with overly officious people who wanted to rip these children from their families, she referred to them as disapproving do-gooders

they didn't care about their clients as much as they cared about pushing their own agenda and the power it gave them


13 Nov 20 - 10:20 AM (#4079470)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Early 1980s, I used to live in a shared student house in St Pauls in Bristol.
Not too long after the St Pauls 'race' riots.
St Pauls popularly considered as being a deprived inner city 'ghetto'.

One of my 'house mates' was a very middle class white christian social work student.
His friends on his course were very similar.

They reeked of condescending evangelical missionary paternalism
in their attitude to the poor underclass folks
they would eventually be inflicted upon...


13 Nov 20 - 02:01 PM (#4079507)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Senoufou

I've posted about this before, but it's pertinent now.
I've encountered a few white South Africans who were very unpleasant in their racism. They would use the word 'blex' (ie 'blacks' in their S African accent) In Ghana (Accra) some South African hotel managers were talking in my presence about 'these useless blex' and how 'stupid they are, you can't trust a bleck to do anything properly' etc. I seethed.
And the new pupil who arrived in my classroom from South Africa and announced loudly, "I daon't sit nixt to blex!" when the only free seat was beside an Indian lad.
In these sort of contexts, the word 'black' has inherent disparaging and racist connotations.
But I'm so proud of my BLACK husband and his wonderful family. He isn't 'a person of colour' or a 'coloured person'. He's BLACK!!


13 Nov 20 - 02:22 PM (#4079510)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

I am English not British


13 Nov 20 - 03:13 PM (#4079515)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: robomatic

In the United States referring to people as 'colored' was once upon a time, that time being the first half of the Twentieth century, a supposedly innocuous reference. Persons who I know to be liberal and in no wise bigoted grew up with that terminology and used it throughout their lives. About the fifties and thereafter that term shifted to 'negro'. The book "Black Like Me" came out in 1964. These terms and their usages changed at different times in different social venues, media formats, and timeframes. The term 'people of color' is I think a kind of rounding of the circle on this terminology.

In Britain the language has developed its own terms in its own eras. I remember that the n-word showed up in Gilbert & Sullivan lyrics (The Mikado)* and was when written in the latter part of the nineteenth century not put in as a pejorative. In a similar trans-Atlantic dichotomy, the word 'bloody' was considered unmentionable in English polite society for the longest time, with no similar understanding in the States. Going back to Gilbert & Sullivan, they had a work called "Ruddigore" which was a bit risky because of its similar meaning and rhyme.

I don't know enough of the ramifications of the OPs news brief, but harm can come from using a term one hears on one side of the pond without some cross-checking. Also our language is in a state of ferment and there are people who are:
1) Easily riled
2) Eager to lead the charge of change
3) Not patient enough to investigate the motives of the apparent offender.

There was a case of a student who yelled "water buffalo" at some folks he thought were making a lot of innappropriate racket. I think he escaped just barely getting thrown out of school. He thought he was escaping making a racial epithet. The offended said that the motive was clear precisely because he made that verbal substitution.

There was a case where someone got in trouble in the states for using the word 'niggardly'.

A lot of this stuff sounds foolish. But it highlights the importance of motivation and intention, and the perception of same. If you were referring to 'colored people' in the U.S. in the 1970s it had ramifications on how old you were, how you were using the word, what part of the country you were in, and the expression on your face. And most definitely your audience.

*The Gilbert & Sullivan authors and publishers long ago changed that lyric to get rid of the n-word. Like a hundred years ago.


13 Nov 20 - 03:18 PM (#4079516)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: ripov

well said sandman-and isn't it diffinult to find that on a standardised form? As Folkies we're all very concious of our nations heritage,and aware of how it differs from that of the neighbouring tribes


13 Nov 20 - 03:21 PM (#4079517)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Us Brits could get in awkward trouble in some places
for innocently exclaiming "Knickers" at any trivial annoyance..

Some folks are determined to hear what they want to hear...


13 Nov 20 - 03:28 PM (#4079519)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: robomatic

Alaska is quite interesting in the large indigenous population that has made this part of the world their home for thousands of years. I had a job that took me into what we call "The Bush" but consists of up to sixty towns or villages that can only be reached by aircraft, boat, or sled-team. They are diversified into two main types: "Eskimos" and "Indians". If you are uncertain of whom you are dealing with, you use the term "Native". Alaska has also adopted a term that maybe came from Canada: "First Families". As part of the evolving nature of language and social movements, I detect a move away from the term Eskimo, particularly among the younger generation. It doesn't get used or printed very much.
For years I worked for a company owned by a Native Corporation, which displayed many posters and had many native language messages of cultural pride. This was shared, not imposed, and I went to seminars where Native concepts of family and language were taught. Maybe the most important thing to learn was that we are all subject to change and development regardless of our origina. We are all being in one way or another dragged into the present by the changing nature of the world. the realization that we are all subject to these forces and that we can assist each other in meeting the changes is a constant source of my optimism.


13 Nov 20 - 09:12 PM (#4079549)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy

I remember the niggardly episode. Some folks need to get their heads out of their ignoranuses.


14 Nov 20 - 12:15 AM (#4079557)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: leeneia

A word isn't bad in and of itself. What matters is the sentiment behind it.


14 Nov 20 - 03:11 AM (#4079560)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: BobL

I am English not British
PEDANT ALERT
Well, England is both geographically and politically part of Great Britain, which is part of Europe. Therefore if you are English you are also British, and European.
/ALERT


14 Nov 20 - 11:27 AM (#4079606)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself

Well, it does depend on the context - you might be 'English' by ethnicity without being 'British' in the political sense ... no?


14 Nov 20 - 11:33 AM (#4079607)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Someone could also be a far right English nationalist nutcase
covered head to toe with England flags and pure ethnicity tattoos...

Social media is infested with 'em...


14 Nov 20 - 11:53 AM (#4079610)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

PFR, yeah the nutcases, they often wave the union jack and not the st georges flag.
well i was born in england that makes me english the same as someone born in scotland is scottish, scottish and welsh people sometimes take offence at being called british. that is my privilege too
i was born in england [ beyond my control] but choose to live in ireland


14 Nov 20 - 12:16 PM (#4079611)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm an internationalist and couldn't give a monkeys
about concepts of national identity.
But for practical purposes I'm ok about being British..

My wife enjoys playing the game of being 'proud to be Welsh';
it's a bit of fun for her to join in with..

She doesn't take it too seriously..
.. to the extent of fanatically wanting to kill anyone
for not being Welsh..

.. well maybe during England v Wales in the 6 nations...

She is sad to acknowledge how historically racist her country has been
to black Welsh folks.


14 Nov 20 - 01:35 PM (#4079614)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

i am an internationalist.but i do not see why the extreme right should be allowed to hijack being english.
i am not proud of some of the things british imperialists have done., or aspects of racism that englsh and british people have done, the same as your wife is welsh, so i am English


14 Nov 20 - 01:46 PM (#4079615)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - nowt to disagree with there...

Billy Bragg tried that approach of reappropriating English Identity
for the progressive left.
But folks seemed indifferent, or unreasonably unaccepting of that movement.

Probably because of general dislike for Billy Bragg...???

I try similar tactics when I engage in futile debate
with far right nut jobs on youtube...


14 Nov 20 - 02:36 PM (#4079618)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn

You can't dictate how folk self identify. If someone self identifies as British then that is up to them. If English then just the same. If both then just the same. Up to the individual surely?


14 Nov 20 - 02:39 PM (#4079619)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Allan - tell that to the "if you aint with us, you're against us" fanatical nationalists...


14 Nov 20 - 03:09 PM (#4079623)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn

Well aye certain nuts will rant all they want but in the end each and every one of us will identify as we want. :-)


14 Nov 20 - 03:59 PM (#4079632)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: robomatic

When I first got to university, I moved into a dorm which had been a hispanic themed house. I got into a long discussion with a Mexican-American upper classman about the nature of identity and using terminology to avoid offense or provoke offense. He said he personally kept things simple: "If they use a bad word and they're smiling, I don't take offense. If they're not smiling, it's clobbering time."

My mother had pointed me to a line from the first western, "The Virginian": "When you call me that, smile!" So things had not changed. That was long before the internet.


15 Nov 20 - 04:30 PM (#4079745)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy

"The first Western?"

Cops and robbers still (?) ok to play.

Cowboys and Indians, less so.


15 Nov 20 - 04:34 PM (#4079747)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: McGrath of Harlow

Welsh and Scottish people seem to prefer calling themselves that, rather than British. Though of course geographically the term is correct.

I wonder if when the Scots have seceded, those in English who prefer it will continually to use it?


15 Nov 20 - 08:57 PM (#4079755)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bill D

I am an *American*.. I am also a former Kansan and a current Marylander. I am also a resident of Wheaton... which is merely a convenient designation of one area of Silver Spring.
   It makes little difference unless I am identifying as one level or another for political, sports or legal I.D. purposes. I no longer care to associate myself with some aspects of politics and culture in Kansas, but that is where I spent most of the first part of my life.
   No matter the context, I will always be an American. There are similar levels in almost every country. I mean no disrespect to anyone if I use 'Brit' as convenient short form... as 90% of my remote ancestry is British.


16 Nov 20 - 03:03 AM (#4079779)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn

Re British identity in Scotland you have to take the census results with some caution. It showed 62% of Scots identified as Scottish only. 18% identified as Scottish & British. Only 8% identified as British. I imagine the bulk of folk who identified as British only were probably not Scottish born.

However there are two things to note. The question only gave folk the chance to be either Scottish Only - or Scottish and British. This was like having to give Scottish and British equal billing. Other polls have asked a similar question but give the option to put Scottish first with British second. They tended to show more folk choosing British to some degree - but not giving it equal billing with the Scottish identity. Hence it can be how you ask the question. Though Scottish Only still tended to show about 40% odd or so.

Plus it is secondly what is meant by British identity. If people think they are being asked to define their actual nationality as British then they are less likely to do so - especially for the 50%+ percent or so who favour independence! However many like myself would identify as Scottish by nationality - but I am happy to view myself as British in a geographic, familial sense. Like Swedes and Danes are Scandinavians etc.

As said previously people will identify themselves as they identify themselves.


16 Nov 20 - 03:16 AM (#4079783)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Allan Conn

It will be interesting to see how things change next year as of course the last census was before the 2014 referendum. The question of identity was maybe less politicised in 2011 as it will be in 2021. I'd still expect some degree of British identity as being in the minority but I think there might be a bit more this time round as folk make a choice based more on politics. I know my wife who is a No supporter (the question is best avoided in our house to keep away from arguments) used to call herself Scottish and English as she has one parent from each country and was born and raised in Norfolk. Now she identifies as British Only and refuses to say she is either English or Scottish!!!


16 Nov 20 - 06:04 AM (#4079798)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm more inclined to consider myself European than British..

English get's the Bronze medal...

Being white is the least interesting thing about me...!!!


16 Nov 20 - 11:41 AM (#4079834)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself

It's a curious business, the American use of "color" (apart from the spelling) that has emerged from their troubled history of race relations: it is not unusual to see some public figure referred to as a "Person Of Color" when in fact they would be unnoticeable for their "color" in a random group off the street. I saw a woman interviewed yesterday who was the "first Person Of Color" to be elected as such-and-such: she was Latina, but whiter than I am - I am thoroughly "white", but have one of those light-tan skin-tones, but she was white as snow - but a "Person of Color".

If Kamala Harris had gone to my multi-ethnic high school, I don't think anyone would have regarded her as "Black"; she would have been just another person a little further to one end of the skin-tone spectrum.

Just an observation; not a rant ... !


16 Nov 20 - 11:59 AM (#4079836)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

i consider myself a european but i am still what it says on my birth cert born in england


16 Nov 20 - 12:22 PM (#4079843)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

It's weird that wherever our mother's vaginas were at the time of our births,
is supposed to fix and dictate our legal and national identities
for the rest of our lives...?????


.. crikey.. if my mum hadn't been evacuated during the war
she'd have given birth to Brummies...!!!!!


16 Nov 20 - 12:44 PM (#4079845)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw

That reminds me of that old cowboy joke:

"Howdy! Say, haven't I seen your face somewhere before?"

"Nope, it's always been here between mah two ears..."


"Say, haven't I seen your vagina somewhere before?"

"Nope, it's always been here betw..."


16 Nov 20 - 01:34 PM (#4079850)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Jos

That reminds me of the old story (maybe true) about Oxford dons sunbathing naked on the river bank when some young ladies go past in a punt. Most of the men quickly cover their nether regions but one simply covers his face, saying "I'm usually recognised by my face. I don't know about you."


16 Nov 20 - 03:50 PM (#4079862)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy

"He's not even from our village!"


17 Nov 20 - 06:51 AM (#4079929)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mr Red

I've said it so many times, language is communication.

If the conversation is about football, the word should be inclusive and acknowledge there are female type blokettes who play the bountiful (sic) game.

If there are a group of people of various ethnic origins - how do you define any one of them? In the Arsenal shirt? In the same team? With the big nose? Er, slippery slope there. By name? Not if it is nebulous.

Labels are there to aid communication, fergawdsake green is a label. If you object to labels, accept being ignored.

Time was when dark, without qualification, referred hair colour first. In the UK anyway.

It is typical of PC to trip itself up when a person is trying desperately to demonstrate inclusivity and is hectored by the folks who he is trying to please. Not that I care about one wit football BTW. There is too much of it right up to the top of politics. And both of those are a religion IMNSHO.


17 Nov 20 - 07:52 AM (#4079938)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Senoufou

hen I was a young girl in the fifties, the only 'black' men around were chimney sweeps and the chaps who brought the coal (on their backs, and they shot it into the bunker). But one day, while on the bus with my mum, a real black man got on. I think he was a Jamaican. I shouted out, "Mummy! Look! A chimney sweep has got on the bus!!" My mother nearly died of shame, and apologised profusely. But the bloke laughed like a drain and patted my shoulder. He was so nice, and I was very struck by his handsome face and gorgeously white teeth.
I didn't know that one day I'd be happily married to an extremely black man, who isn't at all bothered by how people refer to him.


17 Nov 20 - 08:04 AM (#4079940)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Bonzo3legs

Lovely story!


17 Nov 20 - 08:28 AM (#4079943)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

It's not really surprising just how many white supremacists
are such unfit, unhealthy, unintelligent, unattractive, specimens of humanity...

Übermensch...??? yeah.. right...


17 Nov 20 - 08:37 AM (#4079944)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Donuel

Speaking of human colors I met a Chinese young lady who was whiter than me and I am practicly albino. I saw the most uniquely golden colored hispanic in a drive thru and remarked how envious I was of his profoundly golden hue. The most rare skin color is Brahman bright blue caused by silver injestion. Its been a long time since I have seen a blue black colored person. Palamino albino people are also beautiful.


17 Nov 20 - 10:26 AM (#4079951)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

i dont know many white supremacists.


17 Nov 20 - 10:34 AM (#4079952)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

errrmmm...???

How many do you want to know...?????


17 Nov 20 - 03:04 PM (#4079977)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Senoufou

This 'naming by colour' business works the other way round too. In all the W African countries I've visited, little children would call out "Eh! Toubabe!" meaning, "Oi! Whitey!" They'd grin and laugh. I found it very endearing. After all, in spite of a bit of a tan, I was very white-skinned compared to them. And I knew full well they meant no harm.
However, at university, I had for a brief time a Scottish boyfriend, from Fife. He took me home to meet his parents, and they were very anti-English (a touch of what I call Braveheart-itis). When they learned that not only was I from England, but born and raised in dreaded LONDON, you'd think I was a mass murderer. Fortunately, my surname is very Scottish, and my ancestors hailed from Caithness way. This exonerated me somewhat and I was offered a cup of tea and some black bun. Then I let out that my mother was Irish. Oh dear. (I didn't see him again!)


17 Nov 20 - 04:51 PM (#4079990)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

what make you think i want to know any, i am saying i do not know many, that does not mean they do not exist, i am sure there are lots ,but i must move in different circles to you, are you a member of a white nationalist group. i thought you were what bonzo called a lefty. i didmnt think you were a racist or white supremacist , please tell me you are not


17 Nov 20 - 05:46 PM (#4080002)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - We never know when or what comical random statements you will post out of the blue in a thread..

"i dont know many white supremacists.".. classic...!!!

It's like on Craggy Island when Father Jack
suddenly wakes from a comatose slumber
yelling the first thing that comes out his mouth...

btw.. Have you forgotten I'm quarter Jew,
which would be a bit of an awkward inner conflict
if the other 3/4 of me were a white supremacist...!!!???

The n@zis would have dictated my racial identity as "Mischling of the second degree"..

That's still enough for me to get my head kicked in, or worse,
by modern day neo fascists...


18 Nov 20 - 12:33 AM (#4080022)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Donuel

Thats more Jewish than me since my step dad was 100% Jewish.
He was a clerk in the US Army in London but saw action in Germany at the end of the war. By clever paper schuffling and clerk magic fairy dust he managed to adopt me from a Liebensborne orphanage in Dusseldorf at the urging from a rabbi that said it would be a mitzvah and atonement for killing nazis. While most GI were bringing home booty, my step dad brought me to America to meet my step mom. My biological parents were probably strangers to each other but its unknown. As a pig in a poke I probably was a disappointment since I was not a scholar or avid reader early on probably due to dyslexia. I did very poorly with languages.
Starting with Hebrew study to be bar mitvahed I was given the choice of religious studies or not. I chose not, but more or less I identified with the culture.
Later on I heard that Ghandi advised a Hindu to adopt a Muslim man's son after a tragic killing and bring up the boy as a Muslim to attone. There were a couple of moral parallels but sort of opposite to my history. One thing is for sure - I'm walking proof that there was no master race.

One interesting irony was that my first girl friend from Guatamala was the child of a German couple who escaped Germany and joined the grandfather who was an archeologist unearthing the Mayan civiliztion.
What does this mean? Mostly that Ancestry.com would be a waste of time for me. :^/


18 Nov 20 - 12:43 AM (#4080023)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Donuel

PS Her name was Priscilla Dieseldorf.


18 Nov 20 - 03:32 AM (#4080027)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

i am sure there are a lot of people who might want to kick you , but i am not one of them,Have a nice day,   stay safe


18 Nov 20 - 04:06 AM (#4080034)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: BobL

Eliza's story (17 Nov 20 - 07:52 AM) reminds me of the photographer's kid calling out "Look Dad - a negative!"


18 Nov 20 - 04:14 AM (#4080036)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - no problems..

We can have our occasional silly little squabbles...

But we remain mudcat music/politics mates
with far more in common that unites us,
than any petty differences that divide us...


20 Nov 20 - 04:41 AM (#4080306)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mr Red

There must be a word for the Goggle ad I see hovering above me as I write this.
It is for amazingly deceptive printing on T-Shirts that for all the world would tempt a someone to buy, yet no doubt in my mind would dissapoint on purchase. They are clearly Photoshopped.

The best I can come up with is mendacious
Or should I suggest Goggle I'd


20 Nov 20 - 04:47 PM (#4080389)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: leeneia

Back to the discussion of"colored person" and "person of color."

There was an article in my newspaper today about the DA of Wyandotte County, Kansas, a black man. The article referred to the NAACP (National Association for the Advancement of Colored People), which is still an important and active group. I would not wish to inform them that their name is politically incorrect.

The DA was quoted, and he used the phrase "person of color," so I believe it's all right.

Funny thing - the paper capitalizes Black as a group but not white. Today I saw references to the Black community and to a missing white woman.


20 Nov 20 - 05:25 PM (#4080391)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

it seems its not a black and white issue but one with shades of grey


20 Nov 20 - 06:00 PM (#4080398)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself

Re: capitalization. Is it in this thread that someone mentioned that one of the prominent style-guides recommends capitalizing 'black' but not 'white'? I'm not sure if that would be based on any kind of logic, or if it is simply indicating common usage. I recall years ago, Azizi pointing out that 'black' as an indicator of race should be capitalized - as, for instance, 'Caucasian' - and clearly it was what she as a Black person preferred, so since then I've made a point of capitalizing 'Black', which I hadn't been in the habit of. To be consistent, I often capitalize 'White' if I'm going to be using both terms - but sometimes you don't know how you're going to end up wording something, and if you end up only using the term 'White', capitalized, it comes off as chauvinistic - but it feels a bit precious to be going through what you wrote in some post on the internet and fussing over whether you capitalized or didn't some word or other. I think I ran into that situation earlier in this thread, and decided that as a w/White person, I couldn't care less if 'white' is capitalized or not, but if it's important to a lot of Black people that that term be capitalized, I only care enough to go ahead and capitalize it - it doesn't take much effort, after all.

I had a similar sort of realization back when we were being hectored about using generic male pronouns, but no one could agree what exactly we were supposed to replace them with (she/he? s/he?, etc.) - it occurred to me that I didn't feel my maleness was under threat, so just started using the feminine pronouns instead.


20 Nov 20 - 11:49 PM (#4080420)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: robomatic

I worked with a guy in Alaska who had a Scottish family name. He looked more South American than Scottish, and in fact, I learned later, was Guatemalen born and adopted into an American family of Scottish derivation. My co-worker totally adopted, in his turn, his family's ethnicity. He would practice bagpiping in the stairwells when we worked late. I learned later he went to Scotland to meet others of the lineage and was treated like one of the clan.


21 Nov 20 - 12:54 AM (#4080427)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy

I don't capitalize much these days. I am also against stressing individual differences rather than commonalities.


21 Nov 20 - 02:51 AM (#4080437)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

and you CAPITALISE [please not original spelling] Grey?


21 Nov 20 - 11:49 AM (#4080477)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself

"CAPITALISE [please not original spelling]"

"The -ize spelling is often incorrectly seen as an Americanism in Britain. It has been in use since the 15th century, predating -ise by over a century." - Wikkpedidia

What do you have against the original spalling?


21 Nov 20 - 12:03 PM (#4080479)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: punkfolkrocker

Spelling pedants may find more of significance in how "coloured" and "colored"
relate to and impact on this issue
either side of the Atlantic...???


["collared" having far more sinister connotations...

.. and how culturally insensitive is the fetish scene "slave collar"...!!!???]


21 Nov 20 - 12:39 PM (#4080486)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Steve Shaw

Use either -ise or -ize in the UK. Use only -ize in the US. meself is quite right. It always amuses me when Brits huff and puff about this.


21 Nov 20 - 01:54 PM (#4080490)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy

Gray, too.


21 Nov 20 - 02:20 PM (#4080495)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: meself

... um ... how about "Wikkpedidia" and "spalling?" Mea cupla! I mean, culpa ... ! I mean, a couple for me .....


21 Nov 20 - 02:32 PM (#4080497)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Senoufou

If we're onto spelling howlers, I have dozens up my sleeve from my teaching days.
I asked my class of 7yr olds to write a lovely presents wish-list for Father Christmas, and decorate it with pictures of angels, holly and so on.
One dear little girl wrote in huge wonky letters "I want a pair of tits". I often wondered if Father Christmas obliged.
Another class was set to write a story about a knight. I suggested they describe his horse (description was everything) and name it with an inspiring name. One boy wrote, "His hores was big and strong and had big feet, It was corld Fluffy."
Finally, another story was set in the Middle Ages, and a child wrote "The men went out to cut the corn. The fields were humming with incest."


21 Nov 20 - 05:32 PM (#4080523)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: The Sandman

There are important aspects of racism that need to be dealt with,Being politically correct or using the latest correct terminology is not paramount in fighting racism, there have been examples quoted in this thread of the confusion and contradiction of different terms meaning different things in different places, what has happened is that the political establishment has got cleverer it wants to give the impression of political equality, we now have in the uk people like priti patel. and a us president obama, they are still the man in the mask, they allow at last different puppets in of different hues to help run their exploitation gee we had two brown puppets, obama and patel, but who pulls the strings.and there is still inequality between races and in societyThe Man in the Mask

Notes: words and music by Malvina Reynolds; copyright 1971 Schroder Music Company, renewed 1999. A portrait of Richard Nixon, and Richard Nixons in general.


Come sit down beside me before the big T.V.
And watch the funny pictures they have there to look at,
Shampoo for your hair and the last polar bear,
And the man on the moon who was walking around
Then left, leaving junk on the once virgin ground.

There's old timey movies with old fashioned dresses,
The kidnap of babies and other such messes,
There's football and baseball and guys selling cars,
And then there's The Man in the Mask.

Chorus:
They say it's his face, but I just can't believe it.
It looks like a mask that I saw in the store.
It talks with deep feeling about ending some war
And stopping inflation, and it's so fantastic,
You'll cry while you're laughing, and roll on the floor.

Every four years he puts a new mask on.
Each one is worse than the one he had before,
But the words are the same and the same earnest manner,
About ending inflation and stopping the war.

The sponsors paid out a million of millions
To get him up there with his magic routine,
But it's really a bargain, 'cause there's such a margin
In war and inflation and the big T.V. screen
That gives us The Man in the Mask.


23 Nov 20 - 04:28 PM (#4080705)
Subject: RE: BS: A person of color and a colored person
From: Mrrzy

I won't do the PC thing if it just stresses differences instead of commonalities.