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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

22 Aug 20 - 02:10 AM (#4069114)
Subject: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

As there has been none of the regular infighting, circular arguments or abuse on the UK Labour party thread for weeks now and I have had no objection from the moderation team about starting new political threads I think it is safe to assume the issues have been resolved.

I have copied DMcG's post to kick this one off. Hope that's OK, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 01:08 PM

Nothing to do with Labour again: another Brexit consequence.

"EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.

When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."

Bit of a shame for those concerned about "all these illegal immigrants", I suspect.


I agree. Brexit is nearly on us and while it is just one of the many failings of the Tory government, it does deserve a thread of its own. I may start another on the other disasters.

Nope. This one can run because it has been quieter lately, but several others intended to cause chaos are being thinned out. Mudcat is a music site and the amount of political fighting in the BS threads from the general direction of the UK and environs is too disruptive to much of the membership who come here for music. ---mudelf


22 Aug 20 - 03:14 AM (#4069122)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

why?other disasters, covid 19?
Iwas cycling along yesterday, and stopped to say hello to a walker who used to play trad music, he got on the subject of covid as soon as he could, quote
the trouble began when they restricted congregations of churches t less than 50, it is the house of god, god is all powerful, you are safe inthe house of god unless you are an atheist or communist.
the alternative round here is to talk to sheep, the conversation is equally perplexing


22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM (#4069124)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all.


22 Aug 20 - 03:36 AM (#4069125)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

Goggle Ads posted "the 10 best Casinos on line" at the top of this thread. Goggle knows everything about us, so what are they telling us this time?

I posit they are whispering Brinkmanship - the kind that doesn't have a contingency plan in case of rare but inevitable far reaching serious interventions.

And that intervention happened like shit does, when you leave things to the last minute.

Did they "beware what you wish for"? we have less than 6 months to find out what they** wished for. The bet is we will get just that. Then we will habituate to the new normal, and we will blame Brexshit and they will blame COVID and everyone will think they are correct.

**we should be obvious but who are they ? Fakebook & St Petersberg come into that equation IMNSHO.


22 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM (#4069129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Mr Red:
You're probably right about 'brinkmanship', but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Dave the Gnome:
Interesting to see that the original quote (whatever its unstated origin) mentions refugees and migrants . It seems someone at least accepts that not all those arriving are actually 'refugees'.

Maybe this time around we will see a discussion based more on facts than on suppositions. We can but hope.


22 Aug 20 - 05:43 AM (#4069131)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

As a partial answer to the usual question of why families are risking crossing the English Channel, this quote:

Though it is hard to grasp at first sight why any family would sleep in a wood rather than apply for asylum in France, the families and the charities who support them say the official accommodation centres are dirty, frightening and inappropriate for vulnerable families.
Armed police try to get families on to buses, tearing up tents. After a certain number of days families must apply to stay in France, and many do not want to do that.
One father told Fallowfield: “If the French would give us even basic support, I would go to the accommodation centre for my children’s sake. But they treat us like animals.”
Like other families here, he sees trying to reach the UK as his only option. “I have destroyed my life for my children to have a better future. I don’t want my kids to grow up where someone can brainwash them and make them kill for a living. Islamic State came to our country and that’s why I have come to this shit place. It’s the hardest job in the world being a parent.”

From The Guardian

So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?


22 Aug 20 - 06:06 AM (#4069133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Firstly, of course I have no objection to copying my post as an introduction to this thread.

I find it a bit of a stretch to imagine many people voting to leave because they were dismayed of what was happening to refugees and migrants in France and thought we should be treating them here and better. So that seems to be rather beside the original issue, which was the loss of the right to send such people who get to the UK back to the EU countries. Even last night on Newsnight one of the Conservative MPs for an area in Kent - I forget which - was stressing the importance of the Dublin Agreement.


22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM (#4069138)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either. I'm not sure how your quote from the Guardian answers anything though. After the end of this year we will have no right to send anyone entering this country illegally back to their country of EU entry. I think DMcG's point about this ruling being against what some leavers voted for is still valid.


22 Aug 20 - 10:11 AM (#4069162)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

So,if we can no longer return failed asylum seekers to France from 1 January, we will need to repatriate them to their homes, which is also an option. BBC: Failed asylum seekers
While this is more difficult than just returning them to France, it does stop them immediately re-joining the camps at Calais and trying again.


22 Aug 20 - 10:27 AM (#4069164)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.

There is no doubt that Europe has something to lose by not securing a deal. But the UK has more to lose. So playing my "life ain't binary" card, I am of the opinion that the brinkmanship is more irresponsible when the loss is the greater.

Change costs money, and this change will cost, and payback is ill-defined. Making deals at the last minute means dependent systems/infrastructure will be formulated in a hurry, and mistakes will be made. Which is why change costs more money. Which is why the UK has more to lose.


22 Aug 20 - 01:28 PM (#4069187)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Absolutely, Mr Red. I have nothing against change. Some of my best results in life have come though drastic change. But change for changes sake or, even worse, change when you have no idea what you are changing to is a nightmare.


22 Aug 20 - 02:07 PM (#4069192)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

we can repatriate failed asylum seekers. Which means after their case has been reviewed. This is unlike the Dublin Agreement under which we could send them to France immediately, I believe. We cannot return a successful asylum seeker who is recognised as a refugee, but again a number would have been returned to France and the decision taken there, leaving France to host the refugee.

So while we can indeed send failed asylum seekers home, the number remaining in the UK is likely to be higher if we do not get agreement in place. Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.


22 Aug 20 - 02:51 PM (#4069193)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.
And which is why, while negotiations are ongoing, we do not know what will be needed.


22 Aug 20 - 02:56 PM (#4069194)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Mr Red:
Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.


At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned. Only those involved in the negotiations, UK & EU, can employ brinkmanship. St Petersburg is a non sequitur


22 Aug 20 - 04:47 PM (#4069206)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator

"So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?"

I need to learn bow to do the italics.....

SO maybe if the racist little ****s in the UK were to make a serious and equal commitment to helping with refugee resettlement, countries that are doing far more than us like France and Germany would be under far less economic pressure.

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?


22 Aug 20 - 05:01 PM (#4069207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?
Any chance we can have that comment in English?


22 Aug 20 - 06:54 PM (#4069218)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator

also it is well documented that English is more widely spoken around (the world than other European languages. I hope you are not too) tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?


23 Aug 20 - 03:16 AM (#4069262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

Why? round and round in circles yet another discussion that gets nowhere, entrenched opinions, what a waste of time, bring back Jim, his style of insult was not as imaginative as MGM, but it provided a relief from the ennui of the fellow with his fishing rod .


23 Aug 20 - 03:23 AM (#4069266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.

You have been prepared in the past to accept their may be short term damage to the UK because of Brexit but that in the long term that is an acceptable cost to get the benefits*. I don't see why you can't say the same here: it is less than we wanted but in the long term we can absorb any disadvantages. Instead you seem to be suggesting it is not significant.

* With no estimate of the likelihood of that 'may' or hint of what 'short term' might be in practice.


23 Aug 20 - 04:57 AM (#4069281)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned

We can all nitpick when we favour parts not the whole. Which, let's face it, is why we have Brexshit.

And external parties pushing propaganda via social media.
Who has the most to gain from a divided Europe?
Who has the effrontery to poison people in other countries?
Manipulating Fakebook barely registers on the poison scale.


23 Aug 20 - 05:57 AM (#4069292)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

St Petersburg is a non sequitur

Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Dick, up to now no one is insulting anyone. Apart from you. It is not necessary, it is counter productive and it gets threads closed. We can now, hopefully, have a serious discussion where people disagree but respect each other's views and have threads without the rancour that has plagued earlier attempts.


23 Aug 20 - 06:40 AM (#4069294)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

Good post, Dave.


23 Aug 20 - 07:05 AM (#4069298)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I agree. I will not push the Dublin Agreement issues furthwr unless something changes. Those who wish have set out their views and that ahiykd be enough.


23 Aug 20 - 10:44 AM (#4069317)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Wow, what was that word supposed to be? 'should', believe it or not.


23 Aug 20 - 04:18 PM (#4069367)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Jos

I'm getting the hang of these typos now - just look at the letters to the right or left on the keyboard. It gets confusing though when the 'words' include some correct letters. You just need to guess which ones.


24 Aug 20 - 02:54 AM (#4069414)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I spotted it, Dave :-)


24 Aug 20 - 03:17 AM (#4069415)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I'd being staying at a Premier Inn after visiting my children. My wife called out out that we need to leave for breakfast now to get to them, so "I'll just finish this post before we dash off"...


I do make far fewer typos when I use my laptop, but the phone is a bit of a disaster for them, I am afraid. And I rarely think my posts have enough merit to justify the sort of attention a thesis, job or application or report would get.


Meanwhile, back to Brexit. This comment from the EU that the negotiations are going backwards seems to have stirred some Brexiteers I read elsewhere into action.   They interpret it as saying what the EU wanted is not being achieved but the UK is holding firm and the EU is gradually realising it. Seems unlikely to me: the 'going backwards' phrase to me would be saying that things that had been agreed were not longer being agreed to. To what extent that is talking about things in the WA that the UK is trying to get out of, as opposed to things agreed in principle at the start of this batch of negotiations but no longer accepted is hard to tell. Certainly, there is plenty of the former.


24 Aug 20 - 06:39 AM (#4069424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Interesting remark in "The New European" from Alistair Campbell - I know, ad hominem away! - but I think it it true. It has been a long time since I heard this myself:


As for Brexit, even its high priests have given up singing its praises. I cannot for the life of me remember the last time I heard anyone saying how great it was going to be for the country. It has taken on the feel of a trip to the dentist, or filling in your tax form.

Just got to be done.


Your experiences may differ, of course.


24 Aug 20 - 07:09 AM (#4069426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG:
It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.
I am not dismissing the issue. But it is not as yet something which is 'set in stone'. Despite the initial post with an uncredited quote:
EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.
When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."


"The EU negotiators have dismissed". Yes, they've also dismissed the UK keeping its own (internationally agreed) fishing rights, and the UK have dismissed EU claims to UK fishing rights. This is all still under negotiation. To choose one particular 'dismissal' by EU as final is a poor starting point for any discussion.

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK of leaving the EU, but there would also be costs in remaining. I still believe the vote on leaving had the correct result.


24 Aug 20 - 07:15 AM (#4069427)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave the Gnome
Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Yes, I saw reports on "Russian involvement in British politics". I did not see that it included (even in the Guardian) involvement in Brexit. In fact there were complaints that involvement in Brexit was excluded from the remit of the reports.
Perhaps you saw different reports.

Guardian:Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did


24 Aug 20 - 07:48 AM (#4069431)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK

Last time we discussed this, Nigel, you objected to a use of 'will' and insisted on a 'may'. Has that changed?


24 Aug 20 - 09:48 AM (#4069437)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

It may be that I was responding to something more specific.


24 Aug 20 - 10:02 AM (#4069441)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)


24 Aug 20 - 11:07 AM (#4069444)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Rain Dog

Well I would think that most people would agree that there will be extra cost involved in the immediate future. Of course we will have to wait and see if the cost of leaving works out cheaper down the line.


24 Aug 20 - 11:29 AM (#4069448)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Yes, Rain Dog, they do now. That doesn't mean they did before.

Of course, as soon as you admit costs, it is reasonable to expect some sort of cost benefit analysis, preferably with more depth than 'perhaps it will work out in the end.'


25 Aug 20 - 05:52 AM (#4069544)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG
I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.
I hate to suggest that you haven't actually quoted me because I didn't insist, as claimed: that costs only 'may' occur. If I've found the same quote as you (27 Jan 2019) it says: "And I don't think I said "There will be some short term hardship". I think I accepted that there 'may' be, but that it was worth it to get out."   The 'possibility' of 'hardships' is different to the 'need' for 'costs'.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)
So much for the numerous arguments, made many times on these threads (by remainers) that such a deal would never be accepted by the US.

My full quote, in context, is here: Here


25 Aug 20 - 06:07 AM (#4069546)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

We are trying to avoid arguments on this generation of the many threads, so I will simply say that if a cost is not a hardship, you are in a very fortunate position.

Let's move on!


25 Aug 20 - 06:15 AM (#4069549)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

A cost is certainly not the same thing as a hardship, and to try to conflate the two in order to get away with a misquote is misleading. Everyone has 'costs' every day, that does not mean that they are suffering from 'hardships'.
However, as you say, Let's move on.


25 Aug 20 - 09:01 AM (#4069565)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either.


25 Aug 20 - 04:53 PM (#4069619)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

A very interesting piece by Brendan Donnelly Here. I wonder how the Leave-Brigade will dress up the impending shit-show to make it appear as a resounding success?


25 Aug 20 - 06:11 PM (#4069633)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.

Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some.of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.


26 Aug 20 - 02:34 AM (#4069665)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Well, not really.


26 Aug 20 - 03:46 AM (#4069670)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.

Howver, something else about the headline you reerence, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it? The right wing press who are owned, in the main, by a dysfunctional Australian billionaire, a tax-exile Lord and a Russian family with close links to the KGB. These people have their own agenda and you can be sure that the welfare of the British people is not on it.


26 Aug 20 - 03:58 AM (#4069673)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I think many of them were, but were dismissed as 'Project Fear'. The main difference this time is that it is the current government considering them, which is of course very much a "Leave" government.

How likely they are will vary. A shortage of some foodstuffs in December seems very likely to me, as we all remember the Great Pasta Shortage at the start of the virus outbreak. I can see that being repeated with a much wider set of foods fairly easily. Power cuts seem less likely to me.

===

I have been thinking a little about the fabled cliff edge, which has not been mentioned for some time. As with so much to do with Brexit, it is remarkably ill defined, so let me tell you how I think of it.

Let's start with the concept of a 'transition'. In the ideal world, we start with a known situation (for example set of rules and regulations) and a destination (with its spelled out set of rules and regulations.) During the transition, firms have, say, two years to implement the IT systems, carry out staff training and whatever so that at the end of the transition period they are ready to go under the new system.   The less time they have to do this - one year rather than two, say - the more difficult it is.   We are currently in the position that with four months to go, very little is known about the final state. Consequently, it is extremely difficult for anyone to have the appropriate IT, training and other preparation.

It turns out that whatever we have called it, we have not had a 'transition period', as few if any firms has had a chance to transition. We have simply had an extended negotiation period and called it a 'transition period'.

This to me is 'the cliff edge': it is not primarily economic. It is the need for firms to adapt to a substantially different way of working with little or no notice. An announcement on 31 December of the new rules that people have to follow from 1st Jan, or even with three months holiday from one side but not the other or whatever, is a cliff edge.

Trying to cope with such changes will almost certainly have significant economic effects, but they are consequences of the regulatory cliff edge.

Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.


26 Aug 20 - 04:33 AM (#4069679)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

”Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.”

And, without doubt, they will disagree - having voted for Christmas, the turkeys are very unlikely to want to face the fact that, in the near future, their silly, easily-led heads will be separated from their Union-Flag-bedecked bodies (metaphorically speaking, of course!).


26 Aug 20 - 04:45 AM (#4069681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

From DMcG:
For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.
Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.


Immediately followed by Dave the Gnome:
I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Possibly because they weren't understood at the time, particularly the risk of a second wave of Coronavirus when we hadn't had a first wave. To what extent may that second wave exacerbate any possible problems at borders, how could that have been foretold?


26 Aug 20 - 04:53 AM (#4069682)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave the Gnome:
Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.
My post was a direct response to your claim that the report had detailed involement in Brexit.
"Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now".
Which you now appear to accept that it didn't.

However, something else about the headline you reference, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it?

No, I am not making that claim, I was just emphasising that the left wing press had already accepted that the report did not include Brexit.


26 Aug 20 - 05:51 AM (#4069690)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.


26 Aug 20 - 03:10 PM (#4069724)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I agree the risks due to the near simultaneous end of transition and the virus could not have been foretold specifically in 2016. There was, of course, a more generalised concern about a pandemic, but obviously at a much lower probability.

On the other hand the presentation is dated June and it was the 13th of July that Gove formally announced the transition would end in January 2021. So this government consciously accepted all the risks that have been outlined. A risk is not a certainty, of course, but the increased risk is a deliberate choice.


26 Aug 20 - 03:42 PM (#4069728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Scrap that, sorry. The document is labelled July, not June. So we cannot be certain whether the government saw the document and then announced the end of transition, or the other way around.   If it is the other way round, though, it would seem rather lackadaisical to make an announcement and then only get a presentation on the consequences sometime over the next two weeks.


26 Aug 20 - 04:33 PM (#4069733)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.

I'm not trying to derail the discussion, your original claim was that Russian involvement in Brexit was in the report. Which you now seem to accept it was not.

Accepting that the statement was in error is a much better way of getting the discussion to move on than trying to justify your original claim.


27 Aug 20 - 02:24 AM (#4069781)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Everyone but you understood my point, Nigel. The Russian involvement in British politics was the point behind the real original post mentioning St Petersberg. Nitpicking at its very best. Well done, Nigel, you win. I shall not take the thread any further off track.


27 Aug 20 - 03:01 AM (#4069787)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

I reckon johnson is preparing to use ill health as an excuse to run away from responsiblities regarding Brexit in JAN FEB 2021.


27 Aug 20 - 03:19 AM (#4069788)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

You may well be right, Sandman, through it is also possible the party 'persuades' Johnson to quit. The more I think abut it, though, the more complications I see and so I am very loathe to make any predictions on the matter.


27 Aug 20 - 03:28 AM (#4069789)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

The whole brexit debacle has been a fiasco from the start and I cannot see it being any different at the end. Not that it will end in December. The effects will be with us forever. The one lesson that we can come away with is that this is what you get by pandering to right wing xenophobes. I only hope that future governments will take heed.


27 Aug 20 - 12:33 PM (#4069865)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

imo johnson is a political opportunist who plays the populist card. Mussolini did this and ended upside down hanging ignominously with his mistress.
for our USA friends. Mussolini [IL DUCE] was an italian fascist Right wing xenophobe


29 Aug 20 - 07:01 AM (#4070047)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I talked above about a 'cliff edge' being less about a direct economic one but much more a consequence of a regulatory cliff edge where what needs to be done is not known until just before it needs to be implemented.

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

I think that is a good indicator that is what we might look forward to at the end of December.


29 Aug 20 - 09:17 AM (#4070053)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Stilly River Sage

The old history stuff is completely understood, Dick. No need to patronize. It's the modern stuff that is an incomprehensible tangle. But then, who are we to criticize until we get the current occupant out of the White House? We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.


29 Aug 20 - 02:04 PM (#4070089)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

And some people claim that the government's instructions are indecipherable.


29 Aug 20 - 02:49 PM (#4070092)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

If anyone else agrees it is indecipherable I will happily rewrite it. I accept the sentence is quite long and elaborate, but it is hardly of the complexity of Ulysses.


01 Sep 20 - 06:43 AM (#4070317)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator

The government's instruction do not provide clear instruction on how to gauatnatee freedom of movement, which only pathetic racists and wannabe neo-****s are against.


01 Sep 20 - 06:53 AM (#4070321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Donuel

cliff edge? More like freefall.


01 Sep 20 - 09:18 AM (#4070341)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Brexit: Boris Johnson signals no-deal increasingly likely and hits out at EU for refusing to compromise

So much for an 'over ready deal'. Or was the deal just assuming the EU would give up and let the UK have whatever it wanted?


01 Sep 20 - 09:25 AM (#4070342)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

If Johnson was a character in Game of Thrones, his name would be ‘Boris the Blame-Shifter’. It’s the only thing he and Rasputin Cummings are any good at. And lying, of course.


02 Sep 20 - 02:54 AM (#4070430)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

and that ahiykd be enough

ahiykd we call that a micro-coffefe ?

and

I am getting a de ja vu moment or is it an analogue? When the resurrectors** of Adderbury Morris spoke to the old boys who had been Morris dancers before WW1, they found that the reason the Morris faded was that their agenda had changed. There were more important things to address. So the relatively slow progress of this thread looks to show how much COVID has trumped the debate.

**as reported in "They Way of the Morris"


02 Sep 20 - 03:52 AM (#4070438)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Yes and no, Mr Red. One important difference is that it is very likely that we will find a vaccine for covid in a year or two at most, if it is possible at all. After that point, it will be of much lower concern, though there will be more awareness of the risks of similar diseases, with a bit of luck.

The consequences of the trade agreements we reach will have effects lasting decades. The Brexit supporting Professor Minford said this included major reductions, or even elimination, of the UK industrial and farming sectors, for example.

So it is completely understandable that the majority of most people's attention is on covid. Mine is as well. But that does not make the trade deals we come up with unimportant.


02 Sep 20 - 12:49 PM (#4070491)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

Brexit, is appearing to be a big mistake.


02 Sep 20 - 12:52 PM (#4070492)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Raggytash

some of us realised that four years ago.


03 Sep 20 - 02:04 AM (#4070562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

yes,raggytash you were not the only one 49 per cent thought so, but with the addition of covid it appears to be an even bigger mistake


03 Sep 20 - 07:28 AM (#4070597)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

Yes and no, Mr Red.

But after a year's testing and trickle feeding out the vaccine to the most deserving in society, assuming the world can produce enough effective vaccine in a year. Do you have any idea of the logistics involved? Do we have enough chickens to make all the eggs? And if we do, less eggs for eating & up goes the price of eggs on the retail market.

Brexshit will be a reality and the price of eggs (et al) will be rising as a result. And which will be the more scary?
1) The UK out on a limb with few deals in place and new systems in place like customs deflating the excitement of foreign travel.
2) Or Travel abroad pretty scary on its own, with uncertainty if getting home un-plannable ahead and how much quarantine necessary on return. Not to mention the long term affects of surviving the virus!

My point was: Brexshit will be a lesser concern by comparison, and it can be endured, and enduring it will be. History tells us. If we listen.


03 Sep 20 - 01:23 PM (#4070633)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

IF IRELAND gains unification an extra cost would be placed on europe and a financial burden would betaken off the uk economy, maybe the uk should rejoin europe?


09 Sep 20 - 02:56 PM (#4071340)
Subject: BS: Breaking International Law
From: SPB-Cooperator

I am reluctant to begin a new thread on UK politics, but I cannot find another thread to post this to. If their is an active thread, maybe the mods can move this post.

In the UK, the Northern Island Secretary stated that it is fine for the government to go against international law and pass legislation that goes against an internationally agreed treaty and therefore international law for the sake of domestic expediency.

What is telling is the following question and answer at the beginning of Prime Minister's question time. (source Hansard)

Munira Wilson
If Ministers think it is acceptable for this Government to not obey the law, how on earth can the Prime Minister expect the public at home to do so?

The Prime Minister
We expect everybody in this country to obey the law.

The hypocrisy of the reply says everything.


09 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM (#4071344)
Subject: RE: BS: Breaking International Law
From: Joe Offer

It does seem that hypocrisy is the Rule of Law these days, doesn't it? I heard a radio program the other day about a wonderful new museum that opened recently near Gdansk. It was intended to tell the story of the history of Poland during World War II. The current government completely repurposed the museum, so that nothing negative is said about the conduct of Poland or the Polish people during the war.

It seems that too many countries have been following this path recently. Honesty is no longer important.

Trump has just cancelled all racial healing classes that were being taught for government employees, saying that is "unAmerican" to teach that there is racism in our country.

-Joe-


10 Sep 20 - 01:57 AM (#4071400)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The latest wheeze of Johnson to try to unilaterally alter an international agreement - i.e. break the international law - is being criticised is the House of Representatives, where several representatives are making clear they have no intention of agreeing a US-UK Trade deal if there is any threat to the Good Friday Agreement.

Heaven knows the USA has bigger issues to deal with at the moment that they need to focus on, but that's the thing about international law: it has international effects.


10 Sep 20 - 02:07 AM (#4071402)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

What’s puzzling me is, whatever happened to the ‘Oven-Ready Deal’ that, during the GE Campaign, Johnson claimed he had negotiated, and which was ready to go?

Could it possibly have been a lie, perhaps dreamed up by Rasputin Cummings for Johnson to spout, in order to confuse feeble-minded people into voting for him?


10 Sep 20 - 04:09 AM (#4071413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

i never realised what differences there were between theresa windrush may's deal and boris f***in lying idiot johnson's deal. except that the latter had the approval of a rabid group of fascists on the tory benches. but apparently with johnson's version he has the right to just dump parts of it he doesn't like and ignore or insult our allies.

those who voted for this crew have no excuses - just saying you were inspired to leave the EU because of your racist feelings is far more creditable than saying it is because you believe that boris arrogant idiot johnson is capable of being a good prime minister and leading a competent government


12 Sep 20 - 03:14 AM (#4071596)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

History will judge Theresa May, and 'King Boris. And Mrs May will be looked on far more kindly by comparison. Yes she was ineffectual, but not because of her intellect, but because she was pushing a leviathan uphill that she didn't believe in for the sake of her tribe's unity.
Whereas Boris Turncoat Johnson just wanted to be Prime Minister.

Compare those if you will with someone who didn't even want to be leader of his party. (Was he actually ever?)

Popular vote eh? What's that worth to a pandemic ravaged principality?

And FWIW even the most optimistic pundits now forecast the financial nuclear winter I have been predicting. It ain't rocket science, change costs money, and there are now two major changes surrounding the UK. All it takes is an inevitable cold winter that must descend one day, and the mild weather we have become habituated to will throw us.
And the cry will be "The government should............."

Tell you what - my supply of non-perishables is constantly topped-up now. Against more severe lockdown &/or snow or even a personal COVID. Siege mentality maybe, but at least it is while panic-buying has faded from public consciousness.


13 Sep 20 - 08:05 PM (#4071771)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone. It was vociferously emphasised by the DUP in the Commons as the reason they had broken their alliance with the Tories, along with others.

There is no possibility that the government was no fully aware of the implications ofwhat they were signing.

But why should anyone be surprised at an English government acting in bad faith when it sees that as convenient? There's an expression "Albion perfide" which was first used as far back as the 13th century?


14 Sep 20 - 05:09 AM (#4071802)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone.

"Under duress" rather than "In bad faith". Despite Article 50 clearly stating that "Nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed" (wording not checked, but the meaning is there). EU negotiators refused to even start discussing trade terms without an agreed payout, and other restrictions. That is what became the "Withdrawal agreement". Now that the EU (or at least Mr. Michel Barnier) are refusing to discuss trade unless we first give way on fisheries and government aid, we can see the same happening again. Article 50 (part of an international agreement) is clearly being ignored by the EU. Fortunately Boris Johnson is willing to fight fire with fire.

From the above it should be clear that I don't believe that the EU can claim the moral high ground when it comes to keeping aligned with international treaties.


14 Sep 20 - 07:38 AM (#4071811)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I love this 'nothing agreed until everything is agreed' line. Some people are interpreting 'everything' to mean absolutely everything, including perhaps whether God exists.

That sentence has a scope: "everything" refers the negotiation of the Withdrawal agreement and an agreed text of the Political Declaration. Which have been agreed.


14 Sep 20 - 09:35 AM (#4071827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow

The EU did indeed insist on necessary guarantees before it was willing to enter into negotiations, true enough. So if the UK was unwilling to give those guarantees the right thing would have been to accept that, and leave without a trade deal.

The problem with that would have been that, while that was fine with the clique in charge under Johnson, they could never have sold it. It would not have been acceptable to Parliament, and in fact would not have lost an awful lot of votes in the subsequent election, and they¡d never have got that stonking majority of yesmen and women.

Signing the agreement with no intention of keeping it was primarily a way of conning the British people rather than the EU. Now it looks very much as if the Johnson Mob has succeeded in enginering the no deal exit that was intended all along.

Very clever bit of management, a classic con-trick. What Baldrick would have called "a cunning plan". And we know how well those always worked out in the end...


15 Sep 20 - 09:04 AM (#4071941)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

after the disgraceful decision (presumably born of jealousy) that the bbc were to stop broadcasting nicola sturgeon's daily information to scots about her government's covid strategy,we now hear that bbc 'stars' are to be stopped commenting on political matters. this is just suppression of free speech, decency and competent government . what has england become? and some people like this stuff? if you enable fascism - what are you?


16 Sep 20 - 03:44 AM (#4072050)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Suppression of free speech
Curfews
Rat on your neighbours

It all sounds frighteningly familiar...


16 Sep 20 - 04:25 AM (#4072052)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

There are other things I would add to that as well, Dave. For example movement of powers from Parliament to ministers is a very disturbing trend. In several bills recently, including the Internal Market, Parliament has voted not to have the authority to review minister's decisions. Obviously in the Internal market that has not yet completed, but those clauses are there.


16 Sep 20 - 07:09 AM (#4072059)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.

SRS - would you have accepted the third Bush? Instead of the one in your hand.


29 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM (#4073626)
Subject: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs

At last someone prepared to speak out against the wimpie wokies!!!!!!!!!


29 Sep 20 - 03:36 PM (#4073629)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker

Oh that has-been actor, and now malleable ventriloquist's dummy for the radical right...


29 Sep 20 - 03:50 PM (#4073632)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs

That's the one!!


29 Sep 20 - 03:57 PM (#4073633)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker

What we wanna know is who is funding his newly born political aspirations,
and how many £££$$$$ they are happy to flush down the bog...???


29 Sep 20 - 08:22 PM (#4073655)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Steve Shaw

He's about as charmless and despicable as Tim "Wetherspoon" Martin, which is saying something.


30 Sep 20 - 03:27 AM (#4073671)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Nick

Lawrence Fox is a man NOT to watch. And as he has becomes more and more unemployable in what he was slightly good at ie acting he will undoubtedly end up disappearing. Hopefully.


30 Sep 20 - 02:22 PM (#4073750)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

The proliferation of UK political topics is a problem. Argue about all of it in one place, please.


30 Sep 20 - 05:42 PM (#4073782)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

For all the fishermen who fell for the lie about protecting them.

Britain offers EU fishing concession as part of Brexit sweetener


30 Sep 20 - 05:46 PM (#4073783)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on. Where do things stand now?


30 Sep 20 - 06:08 PM (#4073790)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Too many of us are resigned to either being in an induced coma in intensive care, or prematurely deceased,
before any progress is made on brexit...


30 Sep 20 - 06:41 PM (#4073796)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

To answer Silly's question about Brexit. We are in a very critical time as far as negotiations are concerned. There will probably be a lot of noise over the next two weeks. The EU gave until today for some clauses to be dropped from UK legislation and they have not. There is an EU meeting on 15th/16th October which Johnson has said is a deadline. The EU has said the end of October is its deadline. Meanwhile the EU has rejected a UK request for special treatment for cars assembled from Japanese parts (etc) to be treated as if those parts originated in the UK; the UK has offered a phased deal for fishing and the Government has warned of up to 7000 vehicle/2 day delays as a "reasonable worst case" lasting for months from 1 January.

Any or all of this could change in the next four weeks.


30 Sep 20 - 06:55 PM (#4073799)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on.

The only good thing about COVID-19 is that it stops us having to talk about Brexit. If only we could find something, other than Brexit, to stop us having to talk about COVID-19.

DC


30 Sep 20 - 06:58 PM (#4073800)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Not good, though, Doug. Coronavirus has indeed sidelined brexit. Which is exactly how this crappy government hopes to bury bad news...


30 Sep 20 - 06:59 PM (#4073801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Doug - We could numb the anguish
by restricting ourselves to only discussing American politics...???????


30 Sep 20 - 07:55 PM (#4073804)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

There'd be more intellectual clout in discussing the latest developments in what my grandson's Year One class were getting up to. Yesterday he won the class prize for being the best tidier-upperer. Last week he was one of only five in his class to reach rainbow status. Dammit, I bathe shamelessly in reflected glory, in the knowledge that he's achieved far more worthwhile things than either yank candidate could achieve in a hundred years...


30 Sep 20 - 08:10 PM (#4073808)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Today my mrs got the most disruptive 5 year old in her class
to go an entire day without telling any teaching staff
to f@ck off...

That's the kind of extreme woke thing those traitorous marxist feminist teachers
are doing to brainwash white working class boys
into turning into transgenders...!!!

[yes.. maybe.. I've been researching too many far right youtube channels again...???]


30 Sep 20 - 08:15 PM (#4073810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Brilliant, pfr. I salute ye (and the missus) Sir!


01 Oct 20 - 11:33 AM (#4073879)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i have never heard of lawrence fox,i have heard of other actors, but
i am not interested in their views on anything other than acting.
for example john cleese a well known actor probably has different views to lawrence fox, so what, why should i listen to fox rather than cleese, just because an accpuntant from croydon tells me too.
who exactly do you think you are, telling people we should listen to some actor called fox,rather than listening to john cleese or glenda jackson, or any other actor


01 Oct 20 - 05:09 PM (#4073921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

It is a matter of personal taste, but compared to Tennant, Sim, Scott and others, I don't rate Lawrence Fox much as an actor. Nor compared to some others in the very extensive Fox acting clan.

I would seek him out for potitical advice, either.


01 Oct 20 - 05:24 PM (#4073923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I much prefer Emilia


01 Oct 20 - 05:25 PM (#4073924)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Not my cup o’tea either, Mac. But hey, it takes all sorts I guess!


01 Oct 20 - 05:54 PM (#4073927)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

The neo fascists must obviously now regard posh luvvie fox
as a more publicly acceptable mainstream recruitment poster boy
than football hooligan robinson ever could be...

Though they are still keeping bitter old shite comedian jim davidson
as a back up...


02 Oct 20 - 03:15 AM (#4073971)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Davidson once slept on my mother-in-law's sofa.


02 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM (#4073974)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Shame she didn’t smother the bugger with a pillow.


03 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM (#4074112)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

On reflection it might have been Freddie Star. But I don't think he ate any hamsters.


05 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM (#4074373)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

From yesterday's "Observer". I have not linked the piece as it only says the same thing in different ways but I found this section hilarious.

In the latest ConservativeHome survey of what activists think of the cabinet, the prime minister comes in 24th out of 25. The education secretary is the only cabinet member with a worse approval rating. That’s the verdict of Tory members on their own prime minister: “not quite as useless as Gavin Williamson”.

:D


08 Oct 20 - 03:16 AM (#4074711)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The usual witty and insightful review, by John Crace in the Guardian, of the Prime Minister’s woeful performance presenting his speech to the virtual Tory Party Conference.

Let’s hope Crace is right, that the former Labour voters who allowed themselves to be conned into voting Tory at the 2019 election have indeed ‘grown up’ and realised what a bunch of twonks they elected, and that they give Johnson a good kick up his fat, bone-idle, clueless arse next time (assuming he lasts that long, and his own party haven’t given him the push before then).


10 Oct 20 - 11:14 AM (#4074999)
Subject: BS: Birthday Honours
From: Bonzo3legs

Wonderful honours list which includes 414 names of NHS and social care staff, fundraisers, shopworkers and drivers, etc. - the unsung heroes of the pandemic.


10 Oct 20 - 12:17 PM (#4075009)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

It would be even more wonderful if they paid them properly. Gongs don’t pay the bills.


12 Oct 20 - 04:05 AM (#4075201)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

With 1.4 million employed by the NHS and 1.6 million in social care, 414 baubles means that 99.99% were ignored.

DC


12 Oct 20 - 05:36 AM (#4075208)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Spot on Doug.


12 Oct 20 - 05:42 AM (#4075209)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Today's main Brexit event is the Agriculture Bill returning to Parliament.

The story so far:

In December 2019, all Conservative ministers stood on a manifesto that included maintain the UK food standards (p 57 for those interested.)

When the bill first came to the House, it included nothing to protect the standards. Amendments to introduce those commitments were proposed, but voted against.

The bill passed to the Lords, who wrote such protective measures into the bill.

It has now returned to the House of Commons to be voted on this afternoon. The Government has declared one of the amendments inapplicable of a technicality and it was reported in either the Times or the Telegraph (I forget which), that Dominic Cummings "instructed ministers" not to accept the amendments.

The last poll of the public suggested 94% want the standards preserved. I know polls are very unreliable, but it is fair to conclude, I think, that the majority want the standards maintained. The RSPCA do. The NFU do. The environmental groups do. Consumer bodies like "Which?" do. Some supermarkets have said they will not stock chlorinated chicken.

But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.


12 Oct 20 - 07:10 AM (#4075221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.”


Those of us with more than half a brain knew exactly what the BrexShit-Bunch’s ‘Take Back Control’ meant.


12 Oct 20 - 10:08 AM (#4075241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

what a mess


12 Oct 20 - 12:22 PM (#4075260)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Of as someone cleverly said the other day, an Eton mess is supposed to be meringue, cream and strawberries. Not what the government do :-D


12 Oct 20 - 02:04 PM (#4075275)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Seems that the areas most likely to vote Tory next time have been left in the lowermost tier.


12 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM (#4075278)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Gawrsh , who’da thunk it?


12 Oct 20 - 02:43 PM (#4075280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I thought the lowermost tier was for those areas showing the lowest rate of virus infection. The areas where, whether by luck or good judgement, people have avoided spreading the virus.


12 Oct 20 - 03:22 PM (#4075283)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Something like that, Nigel. But if it was exactly like there there would be a little table somewhere saying when the cases per thousand was such and such then you would be at level N. Since there isn't - so far - then there is some margin of judgement, and that could be partly political.


12 Oct 20 - 03:23 PM (#4075284)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

The virus is far more prevalent in large conurbations and deprived areas, Nigel. 'Tis true that some constituencies in those areas were stupid enough (or at least contained a lot of stupid enough people) to return a Tory. Once their pubs have been shut (for beer at least) for a few months, their jobs have disappeared and a few more thousand of them have died, the time may well become ripe for the feckless Johnson to look to his laurels...

Unless, of course, the almost equally feckless "Dishy Rishi" has taken over...


13 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM (#4075381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

"meringue, cream and strawberries" ? It’s more likely to be a choice between jam roly poly and custard and apple pie and custard .That’s from what I saw when doing some plumbing in a Whitehall club a long time ago ........... Maybe they were from Harrow though.


13 Oct 20 - 10:12 AM (#4075384)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

sorry for the thread creep, carry on.


13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM (#4075436)
Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless her!


13 Oct 20 - 08:06 PM (#4075442)
Subject: RE: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Steve Shaw

My father-in-law, a mighty Somerset man and a far better person than Thatcher, would also have been 95 today. He died ten years ago. I loved him to bits. He would probably have been ashamed had he known about the coincidence.

Funny how it goes. Mrs Steve's lifelong best friend has her birthday today (we had her round for tea and a chocolate brownie this afternoon, and she's coming round for my lamb stew on Saturday night), as does my first fiancée (she had a lucky escape), as does one of my best mates from school in the sixties. Nothing on the 12th, 14th or any other day anywhere near. Weird!


16 Oct 20 - 01:38 PM (#4075681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Yet again, it seems Boris Johnson is saying yes, we really really will walk away from the trade deal talks, we mean it and this time are so so serious.

But not actually quite doing it.

Looks like it will be no deal at the end of October on the EU timetable at this rate. Unless the PM actually concedes enough to satisfy the EU, with probably them giving him a fig leaf to exalt over.


16 Oct 20 - 03:33 PM (#4075688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Others might say that the EU, having failed to make the UK cave in to their demands, is extending their previous 'definite deadline'.


16 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM (#4075694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

People can say that if they like. But on 2nd September Barnier said the end of October is the deadline, and on the 7th Johnson said it was the 14th.

Whether Barnier said it earlier I haven't checked, but that 2nd September speech is available online.


16 Oct 20 - 04:43 PM (#4075695)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

15th. Sorry, the inevitable typo.


16 Oct 20 - 05:10 PM (#4075698)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all. quote
Brexit is a world wide issue too, it aff4cts the usa china ne zealand australia furthermore the whole world
Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless hr quote.
a matter of opinion, not a fact, other than it was her birthday


17 Oct 20 - 04:43 AM (#4075728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

EU are not making demands, the British lowlife are. All EU are doing is stating what the conditions are for a trade deal outside of the single market. If UK wants to trade with EU the accept EU conditions.

The trouble with people who support leave is that they are so arrogant that they would try to join a folk club and demand the right to change the club rules to their own benefit.

Losing our rights as EU citizens is another matter, and the EU withdrawing our freedom of Movement and benefits of the single market as individuals' is nothing but vindictiveness.


17 Oct 20 - 05:26 AM (#4075730)
Subject: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman

new allegations about Boris and pole vaulter from Peckham.


17 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM (#4075731)
Subject: RE: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman

The Sunday Times reports she went for the job at Tech City in 2012, weeks after Mr Johnson started bidding for City Hall to take control of the same quango.

The allegations adds to mounting questions Mr Johnson faces over his links with the businesswoman - due to appear on Good Morning Britain tomorrow.

He has already been accused of granting public funding to Ms Arcuri, whose flat he's said to have visited "several times".

She reportedly received £10,000 in business cash from an organisation Mr Johnson was responsible for as London Mayor in 2013.

And Ms Arcuri, who was in her 20s at the time, was also allegedly given special treatment to attend jet-set trade missions led by the future PM, according to a Sunday Times investigation.

Mr Johnson has now been referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC), and must provide details of their relationship by Tuesday to a summons from the London Assembly.

If he fails to do so he could face a penalty.


17 Oct 20 - 05:54 AM (#4075736)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Eck, if you’re quoting, why not italicise the piece you’re quoting and put it in inverted commas? Then your posts might make a bit more sense.


17 Oct 20 - 06:20 AM (#4075738)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

That was for The Sandman...


17 Oct 20 - 06:23 AM (#4075739)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Conversely Backwoodsman it might be his own opinion and he is just echoing Bonzo!


17 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM (#4075740)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Never thought of that, Raggy! Hmmmmm..... ;-)


17 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM (#4075743)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Boris want to change the conditions of trading with the EU. It's the EU's fault that talks have stalled.

Boris wants to put Greater Manchester in tier 3. Andy Burnham says that to do that they need more funding. It's Andy Burnham's fault if the contagion increases.

Anyone seeing a pattern here? Not only is Johnson a pathological liar but he also doesn't understand that negotiations are a two way thing. I suppose he was brought up to believe that if you shout, stamp your feet, throw the toys out of the pram and blame everyone but yourself, you get your own way.

I pity his children. However many there are.


17 Oct 20 - 12:53 PM (#4075770)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Any discussion of UK future trading with EU has no correlation with what's happening within the UK. Any attempt to compare the two is a non sequitur.
Similarly, any discussion about Boris Johnson's children (legitimate or otherwise) has F*** A** (very little) to do with the political discussion.


18 Oct 20 - 03:08 AM (#4075811)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest. Boris proves himself to be none of these things every time he opens his mouth. Not being able to say how many children he has sired is a prime example. Blaming the other party when negotiations go wrong is another and, in this case, worse still because it affects the lives of millions.


18 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM (#4075814)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave. What we certainly did expect was that they should be held to account when they were not. The whole rationale for Freedom of Information Acts wherever they exist is to expose the occasions politicians ae not, and to hold them to account when that happens. Ditto the various ways powers are separated.

What we have discovered over the the past few years - and the 2016 referendum is as good a starting point as any - is how weak the UK system is on holding politicians to account. When individuals and governments can be found to be in contempt of Parliament and they basically shrug and say 'So what?' the accountability is failing. T When the question of whether supreme court judges in the UK should be subject to political veto is seriously considered, the separation of powers is failing. When Parliament itself votes to have no say in ministers decisions on trade (for example), the representation of the people is failing.

Personally, I regard these things as ultimately more significant than the economic impact of Brexit.


18 Oct 20 - 04:20 AM (#4075815)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

What we are seeing now is precisely what the people of Germany saw in the 1930s. A government spreading its own propaganda, making itself unaccountable, demonising minorities - ‘the other’ - and actively creating divisions, blaming others for their own actions and inactions, practicing the Goebbels philosophy of repeating lies so frequently that no matter how big are the lies, in the people’s minds they become truth.

And we tell ourselves it could never happen here, yet we have evidence of the success of the government’s brainwashing tactics on this forum and, indeed, in this thread. Well worth remembering that, in 1930s Germany, it didn’t begin with gas-chambers, it began with ruthless politicians determined to pursue their agenda whatever the cost.


18 Oct 20 - 05:17 AM (#4075820)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

We are all aware of the risks bring Hitler into threads like this, but I don't think that oversteps the mark, Backwoodsman. It is genuinely salient to look at what was happening around the time of the Enabling Act.

I have recently been reading a book called "They thought they were free: The Germans 1933-45", first published in 1955. The author is essentially a journalist, not a historian. So far I have only read the first part, which is events as seen through they eyes of ten relatively ordinary people: a local mayor, a policeman, a baker, a teenage schoolchild and so on. I am afraid I do see parallels, though fortunately I also see very substantial differences.


18 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM (#4075821)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I deliberately didn’t mention Hitler, DMcG, for obvious reasons. However, the rise of the Far Right in the UK, as well as the US, is reminiscent of 1930s Germany, and some of the tactics and practices being employed are undoubtedly similar.


18 Oct 20 - 05:33 AM (#4075822)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Quite so, Backwoodsman, quite so.


18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM (#4075824)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

and of course ALL labour polititians are open, ethical and honest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM (#4075825)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

politicians that is!!!


18 Oct 20 - 06:29 AM (#4075826)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Politician - Sons of Cream!!!


18 Oct 20 - 06:39 AM (#4075827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Can you not read Bonzo.

Dave the Gnome posted "Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest"

DMcG posted "I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave."

No mention there of Liberal, Labour, DUP, Scottish Nationalist, Plaid Cymru, Greens or Conservative. **

However we do have a Conservative leader who seems to be a stranger to the truth.









Apologys to those political parties I may have missed.


18 Oct 20 - 11:32 AM (#4075842)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Whataboutism just doesn't wash, Bonzo. For the first time we have a prime minister who seems to see nothing wrong with lying, cheating and plain incompetence. What is more he seems to believe he can get away with it and will continue to do so as long as the very electorate that he is leading up the garden path continue to excuse him. I hope all the turkeys that voted for Christmas are happy with the result.


18 Oct 20 - 12:16 PM (#4075844)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Tough.


18 Oct 20 - 12:23 PM (#4075845)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Don’t. Feed. The. Troll.


18 Oct 20 - 12:42 PM (#4075847)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Always the same when anyone questions the labour shambles, and it is a shambles. Even starmer has lost it now. One consolation perhaps is that abbott is out of the picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


18 Oct 20 - 01:42 PM (#4075855)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

But how many Labour MPs are the current prime minister?


18 Oct 20 - 02:03 PM (#4075858)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

doggerel from the dogs bollocks


18 Oct 20 - 04:30 PM (#4075869)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzo. The Tories have an 80 seat majority. The lying blonde bufoon is prime minister. Labour are powerless to do anything but point out the idiocy. The mess we are in is no one's fault but the Conservative governments. Yet you, Boris, the Conservative party and the Tory apologists will take no responsibility for anything. Preferring instead to blame a Labour party who's hands are tied. I know you don't care but I take great pleasure in seeing you trying to lay the blame elsewhere while everyone else can see where it really lies. Keep it up :-)


18 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM (#4075871)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Dave, he is dogmatic, his dogma is blame everything on the party in opposition


18 Oct 20 - 04:50 PM (#4075872)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzodogmatic? :-)


18 Oct 20 - 06:00 PM (#4075886)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Bonzodogdoodah band were far more amusing. **












My apology for the poetic licence with the name !!


19 Oct 20 - 03:52 AM (#4075923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

These comments by Lord Kerr, and the earlier ones by Lord Neuberger fit into this discussion quite well, as the address the relationship between the judiciary and Parliament.


19 Oct 20 - 04:28 AM (#4075928)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Good articles, Mac. No matter which side of the political divide anyone is on, the absolute necessity for a judiciary, independent of the political parties, with the power to call politicians to account, must be perfectly obvious.


19 Oct 20 - 04:47 AM (#4075929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

As if by magic...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-government-has-moved-to-shift-blame-to-businesses/19/10/

So businesses are to blame for the government's failure to fulfil its promises

We are to blame for their abysmal record with the virus

Labour antisemitism anyone?


19 Oct 20 - 06:58 AM (#4075937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Businesses should not be making any changes at all to the way they operate, and if anyone takes issue, then all they have to say is 'take it up with Johnson'.


19 Oct 20 - 07:24 AM (#4075938)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Stolen from a Facebook friend. Bit long but well worth it

Post this
You really couldn’t make it up! ( sorry, did I say that last time...)
The Week in Tory is back! Fasten your seatbelts...
1. Boris Johnson announced a new 3 Tier lockdown system, with the lowest Tier being
“medium”, like at McDonalds
2. As part of the announcement, the Chief Medical Officer reassuringly said the plan wouldn’t
work
3. The govt said “in all cases, we are following the science”
4. It was revealed the SAGE science committee told the govt to lockdown weeks ago, but that
bit of science wasn’t followed very far 5. SAGE went on to say the govt’s “world-beating” £12bn
Test and Trace system was having only “a marginal impact on transmission rates”
6. Dido Harding, head of Seemingly Everything, said Test and Trace would be “local by default”
and be “highly efficient”
7. She then handed £12bn to Serco, which is highly efficiently charging us £7360 per day for
consultants. To trace Covid infections. Which they aren’t doing
8. Serco’s CEO is the brother of an ex-Tory MP. His partner is a Tory donor. Serco’s ex-head of
PR is now a Tory Health Minister
9. If you feel all this is a bit corrupt, you can complain to the govt’s Anti-Corruption Champion,
John Penrose, who is married to Dido Harding
10. Meanwhile an investigation by the Good Law Project found PPE suppliers owned by Tory
donors or associates were paid 30% more per item than similar businesses globally. I'm talling
you: John Penrose. He’s your fella. He’ll get to the bottom of it, fo shizzle
11. And only 34 days since the announcement of Boris Johnson’s "brainchild", the £100bn
Operation Moonshot, it was quietly scrapped, along with (apparently) Boris Johnson’s brain and
around 28% of his children
12. A Tory MP said Boris Johnson’s “personal skillset this doesn't play to this. He's not a details,
manager type. He's a picture painter”. On the side of wine-boxes, mostly.
13. Another said “I think it's obvious this is a government happier picking fights than governing”
14. Another said Boris Johnson “prefers to get on with dog-walking” and “let’s Dominic do the
work”
15. Chastened by reports local authorities were given only 5 minutes notice of previous
lockdowns, this time the govt gave them ... 7 minutes notice of the meeting to discuss it
16. Except some MPs didn't even get that, and were only invited after the meeting had started
17. And the govt invited the MP for Sunderland, who had to inform them she was only of 3
Sunderland MPs. The govt was “surprised to be informed” of this
18. The dep Chief Medical Officer said the infection rate in the north “never dropped” meaning
the relaxation of lockdown was at the expense of lives oop north
19. Then the govt said they would “devolve more decision-making” and “give more financial aid
to local authorities”
20. But the aid is conditional on the "devolved" local authority doing what the govt wants, which
is quite a novel a definition of "devolved" 21. So, following criticism, the govt briefed the press
that it was going to consult more with regional govts
22. Literally 2 hours later, the govt briefed the press that Manchester was moving into Tier 3
restrictions. The Mayor of Manchester was not consulted (or even informed) about a decision he
must implement, and which affects the largest city-region outside London.
23. A Tory MP, anxious about the lockdown affecting businesses over the party season, asked
the PM “what can you tell us about Christmas”. Boris Johnson replied, “it’s a religious festival
that’s been celebrated 2020 years”, which I’m sure helps us all
24. Matt Hancock insisted we all follow the science and adhere to the 10pm pub curfew that
scientists say makes absolutely no improvement on infection rates
25. Then Matt Hancock broke that curfew, in a House of Commons bar
26. And then Matt Hancock said “The drinks are on me but Public Health England are in charge
of payment methodology so I will not be paying anything”
27. In August, Public Health England was scrapped by [checks notes ] Matt Hancock
28. But prior to that, Tories imposed budget cuts of 5% to 10% on Public Health England for
each of the previous 7 years
29. Unsurprisingly, it was reported that hospitals in the north of England would run out of beds
within 7 days
30. The govt said "Hospital Trusts should consider cancelling all non-urgent treatments"
31. The govt then refused to drop fines it imposes on Hospital Trusts which cancel non-urgent
treatments
32. So Matt Hancock announced the reopening of Nightingale Hospitals, which were closed last
time because nobody could send patients to them, due to them not being staffed
33. They still aren’t staffed: Matt Hancock's' "urgent boost to nursing training" doesn’t start until
2021
34. Fortunately, the govt began a campaign to get ballerinas to retrain, and then scrapped the
campaign 24 hours later
35. In June, Boris Johnson announced an "urgent" £1.57bn Arts Rescue Plan
36. A mere 127 days later, it "urgently" got around to paying out some of that money
37. Except by now the £1.57bn had become £257m, which is 16% of the plan they originally
announced
38. Meanwhile, in news that will surely leave you all stunned and astonished, a month after work
began on HS2 the budget for it has already risen a further £800m
39. Boris Johnson congratulated Marcus Rashford on the MBE he was awarded for his efforts to
overcome the cruel policies of Boris Johnson
40. The Law Society raised concerns about the “dangerous rhetoric” of Home Office Minister
and Mouth of Sauron, Priti Patel
41. The next day, a migration lawyer was victim of a knife attack, and senior lawyers said
“Responsibility and accountability for this attack lies squarely at the feet of Priti Patel”
42. The Home Office announced plans to catch migrants in a big net and OH MY GOD
43. And then Lord West reassuringly said, “we need to deal with migrants in a concentrated
place, a camp or whatever”. He didn’t mention whether Arbeit Macht Frei, but it’s still only
Thursday, and who can tell what the remainder of the week will bring? [Open 2nd bottle now ]
44. Speaking of dates: today is 15th Oct, the absolute, immoveable deadline for trade talks that
mighty, fearsome Boris Johnson laid down to the cowed and quivering EU
45. Talks continue tomorrow. Because obviously, duuur
46. This is the third absolute deadline imposed by the British that has been missed because the
British have temporarily inverted arse and elbow
47. This didn’t stop Cabinet Office minister Lord Agnew from berating haulage businesses for
not being ready for Brexit on 1 Jan
48. The Road Haulage Assoc pointed out we have only 1,668 of the 33,000 EU Haulage
Permits we need on 1 Jan
49. Software to control our borders won’t be ready until 4 months after 1 Jan


19 Oct 20 - 07:25 AM (#4075939)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Conmtinued...

50. And the govt is “still in the planning stage” of the “Kent Passports” we need on 1 Jan
51. And construction of Kent's “world’s largest lorry park” is behind schedule, so probably not
ready on 1 Jan
52. Fortunately the govt is well-prepared, and plans to install 1000s of Portaloos in Kent, the
garden of England, to be used by lorry drivers trapped in 2-day queues
53. And our food standards will still be fine, as Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi tweeted “Our manifesto
was clear. We will not compromise our animal welfare and food standards”
54. He then voted to compromise our animal welfare and food standards, as did the rest of the
Tory Party
55. And then govt used an obscure rule to deny MPs a vote on whether to allow chlorinated
chicken
56. Meanwhile, 20 years after North Sea Cod became so overfished the WWF declared it
“economically extinct”, Tory MPs voted to reduce protections designed to let fish stocks recover
57. So, after Brexit, our current plan is to accept tariffs that will destroy our manufacturing
sector, and border delays that will destroy farming exports and imperil food supplies, and
destroy the farming sector ... all so we can go and catch a fish that doesn’t exist
58. But at least we’ve now "got back control", and therefore we can level up the playing field by
implementing the govt's landmark “digital tax” policy on giants such as Amazon
59. This week it was announced Amazon will be exempt from the digital tax
60. Speaking of tax exemptions, it was revealed Dominic Cummings has had a £30,000 council
tax bill “written off” because he built the house illegally, so it doesn’t count as a real house, or
summat. Sorry, my hurricane-force sarcasm briefly turned me more northern.
61. And on the subject of extreme dodgy dealing, let me direct your attention to Robert Jenrick,
who set up the £3.6bn “Towns Fund” for the 101 most deprived town, and then gave the
maximum grant of £25m to his own constituency, which is the 270th most deprived town
63. His explanation was that he, Jenrick, did not make the decision. It was made by a colleague,
Jake Berry.
64. Jake Berry also got money for his constituency. By a dazzling coincidence, that decision
was made by – you guessed it – Robert Jenrick
65. Finally: at a meeting led by Liam Fox, the TaxPayers Alliance (insanity-pushers to the Tory
Party) advocated cutting pensions immediately because half of old people “won't be around to
vote against you in the next election”, and the other half “will have forgotten by then”


19 Oct 20 - 10:32 AM (#4075964)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

What a long list of stuff happening. How does it shake out for individual members? What are each of you seeing in your immediate world that is impacted by COVID-19-laced negotiations?


19 Oct 20 - 10:34 AM (#4075965)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Mrrzy just posted a Boxer parody about Trump and I think we can do better. I'll make a start

I am just a rich boy and and a smarmy Eton clown
I have squandered our economy
Lined my own mates pockets
And broke promises
I lie and jest
Still I do just what I have to do
And disregard the plebs
When they find out I have screwed them
I just lie
Lie lie lie
Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie...

:D tG


19 Oct 20 - 11:00 AM (#4075975)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

In answer to your question, Stilly, I am pretty lucky. Retired on a reasonable pension. No debts to speak of. No real wish for material wealth. Living in an area of low contagion. So not much effect on me as yet. However, as the economy is bound to plummet as a result of both the virus and Brexit the future is pretty bleak for many, including my family and younger friends.

The other thing is, whether it affects me or not, I do not appreciate being lied to by those who are supposed to be looking after us. I have always been cynical of politicians in any party. I think that anyone who seriously believes they can run people's lives should be debarred from public office on the grounds of megalomania. But the lot we currently have at the helm really do take the piss. I will point out their lies and broken pledges whenever I come across them.


19 Oct 20 - 11:20 AM (#4075978)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Like Dave, I am retired on a reasonable pension and not directly affected by much of this. But plenty around me are. I have a friend who owns a small haulage company and she is in near despair over the situation. Almost every question she has is still unanswered, and the licencing aspect alone has major impact. Eldest son works for an American legal firm in their London office and there is much uncertainty whether they will move everyone to their Brussels office, and if so, when. Second son works for an international fashion goods company (high end shoes, handbags etc) on the web sales side. So far they are in profit this year, having shut all the high street shops but the future is naturally uncertain. Since the growth area is online sales, though, he is probably ok.

Daughter works in recruitment, which is more affected by covid-19 than Brexit, as far as we can separate them.


19 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM (#4076016)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I live on 485 euros a month, so if anyone wants to buy anything from my website , i will be pleased


22 Oct 20 - 09:43 AM (#4076439)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Europe has been good for ireland in a liberalising approach, it has taken a country highly influenced by reactionary religious elements and gradually turned it in to a much more liberal minded and forward looking country


22 Oct 20 - 11:15 AM (#4076449)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Ireland isn’t a part of the UK.


22 Oct 20 - 03:54 PM (#4076470)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

:-)

;-)

:-))


22 Oct 20 - 04:45 PM (#4076474)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Who's the guy with the double chin?


23 Oct 20 - 02:50 AM (#4076508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Is it a double chin or a slit throat? :-)


23 Oct 20 - 03:53 AM (#4076511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

northern ireland is part of the uk , and because of brexit there is a big border problem looming, it is affected by brexit so my comment is relevant


23 Oct 20 - 04:06 AM (#4076512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I have lived in ireland for 30 years so i am aware republic of ire is not part of uk. talk about teaching grand mother to suck eggs.


23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM (#4076516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Disgusting. But, sadly, what we have come to expect

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/21/government-covid-contracts-britain-nhs-corporate-executives-test-and-trace


23 Oct 20 - 09:14 AM (#4076532)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

You didn’t mention Norther Ireland, Dick, you said ‘Ireland’, which is the universally understood term for the Republic of Ireland. The Republic is not part of the UK, neither is NI a part of the Republic.

The title of this thread is ‘Brexit & Other UK political topics. Please stick to the thread topic, and don’t give the mods another excuse to close our one and only UK politics thread.


29 Oct 20 - 08:49 AM (#4077241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The EHRC's key findings as reported in the Guardian

The Labour party could have tackled antisemitism more effectively “if the leadership had chosen to do so”, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) concluded as part of its 130-page investigations

Not that antisemitism is rife in the party, just that they could have handled it better. I'll be honest and admit that I have not read the report and am not likely to do so as I am not one for politikspeak. Any of the better versed or equipped care to comment?


29 Oct 20 - 09:37 AM (#4077247)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

And Jeremy Corbyn denies some of the findings, and has had the whip suspended for doing so.


29 Oct 20 - 09:52 AM (#4077248)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I saw he had been suspended but not for denying the findings. Do you have a source for that, Nigel?


29 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM (#4077250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Another convenient distraction from the truly important issues - the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government, the looming disaster of a Brexit crash-out with no trade-deal with the EU, the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal, the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed...the list goes on and on, need I say more?


29 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM (#4077251)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

BBC news (Radio)


29 Oct 20 - 10:01 AM (#4077252)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

...the list goes on and on, need I say more?
Hopefully not.


29 Oct 20 - 10:14 AM (#4077254)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The truth must be very painful, Nigel. But your denial won’t make it go away.


29 Oct 20 - 11:05 AM (#4077266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I didn't deny it, however:
Another convenient distraction from the truly important issues - the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government, the looming disaster of a Brexit crash-out with no trade-deal with the EU, the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal, the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed

"the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government": Up until the last week the Labour party supported all the actions, and didn't offer alternatives, so not just the "Tory government"
" the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal": As no UK/US trade deal has yet been agreed, this is mere supposition.
"the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed": Specifics? or just random claims?


29 Oct 20 - 11:25 AM (#4077270)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government"

can you even begin to imagine the winkie wankie wokie abortion which a Corbyn (now sacked from the labour party) government would have been guilty of?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


29 Oct 20 - 11:56 AM (#4077272)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzo, how many times must we tell you this. The current Tory government has an 80 seat majority. The cock ups they are guilty of are no one's fault but their own. What any other party of leader may or may not have done is completely irrelevant.

Nigel. Yes, I have seen and read the BBC news. I cannot find where it says Corbyn had been suspended for denying any findings.

Nothing I have get seen from reports of the EHRC findings seems to indicate the the Labour party has a worse antisemitism problem than anyone else. It does say that their reaction and procedures for handling antisemitism left a lot to be desired. Am I missing something?


29 Oct 20 - 12:00 PM (#4077273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel again

Specifics? or just random claims?

I refer you to my list of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM


29 Oct 20 - 12:01 PM (#4077274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

List=post


29 Oct 20 - 12:19 PM (#4077279)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

The grip on Starmer's short 'n' curlies is so over tightened now,
clumps are being pulled out at the roots..

Might as well just relinquish leadership of the party to margaret hodge and be done with it...


29 Oct 20 - 12:20 PM (#4077280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel again
Specifics? or just random claims?
I refer you to my list of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM


A link to a Guardian opinion piece?


29 Oct 20 - 12:21 PM (#4077281)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Or did you mean the two post list taken from someone else's Facebook rant (a few days earlier)?


29 Oct 20 - 12:36 PM (#4077286)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

No, Nigel, I said my post of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM so which do you think I was referring to? It is a link and there is some opinion in it but if you would care to dispute any of the facts quoted by the author to support his opinion, please feel free.


29 Oct 20 - 12:37 PM (#4077287)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, 200!


29 Oct 20 - 12:46 PM (#4077291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The ECHR report into Labour

I have not read it yet, but will do as soon as possible.

As far as I am aware at the moment, Corbyn was not directly named in the report, but was suspended because in his remarks after the report was published he acknowledged anti-Semitism but said it was overstated. This fell foul of Starmer's remarks that those who “deny there is a problem are part of the problem … Those who pretend it is exaggerated or factional are part of the problem.”


29 Oct 20 - 12:58 PM (#4077294)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

That is the way I have seen it too DMcG.


29 Oct 20 - 01:06 PM (#4077296)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So how long before starmer starts suspending Jewish labour members,
who disagree with his unreasonable authoritarian definitions
of 'unacceptable anti-semitic behaviour'...??????


29 Oct 20 - 03:08 PM (#4077318)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Sounds like Starmer is winding up the lefties - I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


29 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM (#4077326)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Nothing sensible to add Bonzo?

Maybe you're just trying to fill the void left by the previous trolls. Be careful though and remember what happened to them.


29 Oct 20 - 04:34 PM (#4077331)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

” the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government": Up until the last week the Labour party supported all the actions, and didn't offer alternatives, so not just the "Tory government"

1) As has been pointed out elsewhere, the Tories have an 80-seat majority, so nothing Labour may have suggested has any relevance.

2) Neither you, nor I, have any information on the detail of discussions which took place between the Tory and Labour leadership regarding the handling of the COVID crisis, so your assertion that Labour offered no alternatives is mere supposition.

" the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal": As no UK/US trade deal has yet been agreed, this is mere supposition.”

There’s a great deal of evidence that these things are already, or are destined to be, part of the negotiations between the US and the UK. It’s been widely reported in the press and media, and commented on by members of the government. Easy to find unless, of course, one chooses to pretend it doesn’t exist.

"the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed": Specifics? or just random claims?

Once again, numerous examples widely reported in the press and the media - easy to find unless, of course, one chooses not to see it.


30 Oct 20 - 03:26 AM (#4077385)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I still haven't found where the BBC, or any other news agency, have reported that "Jeremy Corbyn denies some of the findings" but I did find the following while I was looking

It (the EHRC) found Labour responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act:

Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints

Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints

Harassment, including the use of anti-Semitic tropes and suggesting that complaints of anti-Semitism were fake or smears


So, to me, that suggests that the "Day of Shame" refers to how complaints were handled and harassment of those complaining rather than any institutional racism. Once the report has been fully digested I would be interested to see if it suggests that antisemitism in the Labour party is worse than in any other large organisation.


30 Oct 20 - 04:22 AM (#4077393)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Reading the report is on my to-do list for today, so I won't talk about it directly yet.

Politically, I am sure Boris Johnson and co are heaving a sigh of relief that Covid and Brexit have been driven out of the media. They will be aware how long the papers kept Labour and anti-Semitism in play last time and I am sure they hope they can do so again.

I don't think that will happen. For one thing, the US election will drive Labour off the media in a day or two at most. Then people care more about lockdowns and other things that affect them directly than Labour's troubles.   I am sure come the next PMQ or two Johnson will try to drag this into his answers at every opportunity, but I don't think it has the 'legs' it had before.   A huge lorry queue at Dover, if it happens, is simply more newsworthy.


30 Oct 20 - 04:39 AM (#4077395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks, DMcG. I look forward to your analysis.

Interesting quote from Caroline Waters, Interim Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission

Politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. There have been recent examples of behaviour from politicians of various parties that fall well below the standards we would expect. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. Our recommendations provide a foundation for leaders to make sure that they adhere to equality law and demonstrate their commitment to diversity and inclusion through their words and actions

Can we look forward to an enquiry into the "behaviour from politicians of various parties"?

I doubt it somehow.


30 Oct 20 - 05:34 AM (#4077401)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I have made a start on the document, but highly recommend everyone interested to read the forward and the executive summary. It is very clearly written and in plain English, and will not take very long. A few highlights:

But, more than that, politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. What politicians say and do matters. Their words and actions send a message about what is acceptable and what is not.
In recent times, there have been examples of behaviour that falls well below the standards we would expect, from politicians of various parties. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. The recommendations in this report provide a foundation to assist all politicians and political leaders in adhering to equality law, while still protecting freedom of expression and engaging in the robust and wide-ranging debate that is a core part of living in a democratic society

.. so yes, this is focused on Labour, but no one should interpret the issue as just about Labour. All parties have, at times, fallen short.


The issue of antisemitism within the Labour Party has been the subject of much scrutiny, most formally with three investigations in 2016, conducted by Baroness Chakrabarti, Baroness Royall and the Home Affairs Select Committee (HASC). Since then, the Party has failed to implement the recommendations made in these reports fully, or to take effective measures to stop antisemitic conduct from taking place. It is regrettable that many of the concerns we raise here were first raised in these reports over four years ago

.. some in the past have regarded Baroness Chakrabarti's report as a whitewash. That is not the ECHR view. But they do say its recommendations have not been implemented adequately.

This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw: • A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders. • In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

Although only a few cases are addressed in this report, there is much more. While some of these are definitely antisemtic, because the people concerned are not employed by Labour, Labour has no legal responsibility for them. That does not make the actions excusable: it is simply the Labour Party is not legally responsible.


30 Oct 20 - 05:52 AM (#4077405)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, I got that far DMcG. It is also interesting to note that the commission does not address any actual complaints of antisemitism or uphold them. I would have thought that was its job. I do understand that it also looks at procedures for dealing with equality issues and that the Labour party is guilty of not dealing with the complaints properly. It is interesting to note that hours after the report's publication the CAA have issued a 70-odd page list of complaints, dating back many years, against members of the Labour party. All, it seems, from the left wing. I shall not speculate as to the motives behind this or the timing of it but let people draw their own conclusions.


30 Oct 20 - 06:19 AM (#4077412)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Who would you look to for legal advice?
1. A barrister who advanced far enough to become the Director of Public Prosecutions.
2. A bunch of disorganised hippies who couldn't win an election against a Sesame Street character who hid in a fridge.


30 Oct 20 - 06:27 AM (#4077413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

And that is relevant to the discussion because..?


30 Oct 20 - 06:57 AM (#4077418)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Very relevant - will hippy abbott be next!!!


30 Oct 20 - 07:28 AM (#4077425)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

When can we expect the results of the enquiry into this Unholy alliance?

I'll not hold my breath.


30 Oct 20 - 08:29 AM (#4077433)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

OK, I have eventually got round to finishing the document - it did have to fit in with other things I had to do, you know!

One of the things that I got out of it which doesn't seem to be coming across as much in the media it is rather less about what the level of anti-Semitism in the Labour party is, as the lack of a clear mechanism to decide and then deal with it. The media is very much about how much anti-Semitism there is or is not in the Labour party, the rows between Starmer and Corbyn, Hodge, Abbott and others. On my reading, that is not really what the report is about at all.   It is much more what are the procedures in place to identify anti-Semitism in the first place (including how clear is the definition, and why, for example, no definition is in the Labour Rule book so all members can know it.) Once a possible anti-Semitic case is identified, how well-defined is the process to handle it, and whether this process is truly independent, or is it subject to political interference.

So for example, they point out the training given to people to identify anti-Semitism is 'academic, not practical.' I presume that means there insufficient case studies where the real world complexities can be seen.   Another example that worries the authors are comments from the Leaders office whether they think an act serious enough to investigate which may override the formal process (and there are examples where it expressed a view both against and in favour of proceeding.) Other Leader's Office comments referred to the timing of the investigations.

In the political world, the temptation to interfere in that way will inevitably be huge. The report is quite clear it is always unacceptable - the procedures must be followed rigorously and independently. It is interesting to notice yesterday Starmer has clearly taken this on board. When the press pressured him to say Corbyn must be suspected, he followed the report to not express a view. Later, when Corbyn had been suspended he stressed that it was the formal processes that suspended Corbyn and he supported both their right to make the decision and the decision itself. Their remains some doubt about the exact rules under which Corbyn was suspended, but it is not Starmer's responsibility to say.
Yet another thing they were concerned about was the appointment of Thomas Gardiner from the Labour leader's office into the body responsible for initial investigations. The at the very least ran the risk of political interference and in their words "undermined confidence in the complaint handling process and, in particular, its independence."


In my opinion, it is a well written report and the recommendations it makes are both sensible and can be implemented in practice in a comparatively short time.   Labour has a legal responsibility to state its plans for addressing the points within a few weeks, and I have little doubt that it will confirm its intentions to fully adopt them.

I also have little doubt the Tories will keep poking at this particular hornets nest, as will some of Corbyn's backers.


30 Oct 20 - 12:47 PM (#4077466)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks for a good synopsis DMcG. It does seem to confirm the conclusions I drew from the "front page". Labour did have problems with handling antisemitism complaints but as for antisemitism itself it seems that the commission have either not investigated that or not found anything to worry them.


30 Oct 20 - 01:07 PM (#4077472)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I would not go quite that far, Dave. They did identify a few cases and said this was "the tip of the iceberg" - but most of the other 18(?) cases they looked at in detail were by people that the Labour Party did not have legal responsibility for, or it was unclear what capacity these people were speaking in. Having said that, they also stressed other parties had similar issues.

I put the question mark after the 18 because that figure was mentioned but there are other complaints and I would need to double check the status of these 18.

The cases that they referenced, though, were often to illustrate where the process had fallen short.


30 Oct 20 - 02:00 PM (#4077478)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I find that an official body suggesting it is the tip of the iceberg without going into detail quite alarming. It sounds like a Daily Heil headline.


30 Oct 20 - 02:19 PM (#4077483)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The exact quote is here:
This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw:
• A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders.
• In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

In light of our position as a regulator, we only made findings of unlawful conduct in cases that were sufficiently clear-cut, in Equality Act 2010 and Human Rights Act 1998 terms. We explain this in Chapter 3


So they saw cases, but restricted themselves to ones that were 'clear cut' and for which the party was legally responsible.


30 Oct 20 - 02:36 PM (#4077486)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The problem is that they did concern themselves with the other cases as they went ahead and reported them. They are either significant, in which case they need to detail them, or they are not significant, in which case don't report them.


30 Oct 20 - 07:11 PM (#4077516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Reports are coming in of a strict national lockdown to be announced on Monday, effective from Wednesday.

If so, I think Labour and the ECHR is going to disappear from the front pages even faster than I predicted, and Johnson would be well advised to leave it out of PMQs unless he really wants to look detached from people's concerns.


31 Oct 20 - 03:48 AM (#4077553)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I think you are right DMcG. "Look! Labour antisemitism!" was already wearing thin as a distraction. By the side of Boris's mis-management of the virus it just sounds stupid. Of course some people will still be fooled . As witnessed here.


31 Oct 20 - 05:08 AM (#4077558)
Subject: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: The Sandman

I have resigned membership from the labour party.
My Stepmother was jewish , her parents escaped from nazi germany in 1936. I concur With CORBYN about exagerration


31 Oct 20 - 05:16 AM (#4077559)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4

Just wondering if you are playing into the hands of the right wing here, and is getting left leaning members to resign is all part of the scheme .

It's obviously a very personal decision but I've decided to stay in the party and watch what happens.

My opinion of Starmer btw is that he is just Ed Miliband in a more expensive suit.


31 Oct 20 - 06:12 AM (#4077563)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Steve Shaw

Absolutely with you there, Acorn.


31 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM (#4077566)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Mr Red

I predicted Corbyn would be a latter-day Michael Foot. And apart from his concentration on Arab/Muslim issues at the expense of Jewish ones it was an apt analogue.

Sacking him is putting out a message. Unfortunately, the message is not in Starmer's hands. It is in the minds of Corbynites. Was it ever thus?

Frank Field, at least, showed contrition over his championing of an underdog. Sometimes, they are underdogs for a reason. History has spoken. Twice, resoundingly. And do we listen?

FWIW Frank Field would have made a better figurehead for the party. But he maybe realised his skills lay elsewhere.
On the basis of one TV clip I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good head honcho, purely from his screen presence, but recent events have only confirmed my opinion. Cursory as it is. Maybe he is eyeing the top of the greasy pole.
And they picked the wrong Milliband IMNSHO.


31 Oct 20 - 06:35 AM (#4077568)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Bonzo3legs

I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!


31 Oct 20 - 06:44 AM (#4077571)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Long Firm Freddie

The report (all 130 pages) is online here:

Report

LFF


31 Oct 20 - 06:56 AM (#4077574)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman

It gives me no pleasure to say it, but the LP are fast becoming the ‘Jeremy Kyle Party’ - behaving exactly like the ‘Waynes and Waynettas’ who go on that god-forsaken waste of broadcasting-time to have their spitting, swearing, handbags-at-twenty-paces fights in full view of anyone and everyone who cares to tune in. Just one more factor in ensuring their own un-electability.

When will they take a leaf from the Tories’ book, and understand the importance of The Golden Rule - ‘Have your fights in private, but present a united front to the public’? I have no problem with internal differences in the party being argued and debated, but there’s a time and place for it, and in public in the press and on prime time TV aren’t it.

Very, very sad but absolutely the truth.


31 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM (#4077576)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Dave the Gnome

UK politics, surely.


31 Oct 20 - 07:34 AM (#4077577)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4

I would agree with the above and unfortunately "Left Unity" seems to be an oxymoron.


31 Oct 20 - 07:40 AM (#4077579)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman

”UK politics, surely.”

I’d agree with that, Dave. I was wondering why someone opened a separate thread - perhaps a kind Mod might combine it with the main U.K. Politics thread?


31 Oct 20 - 07:41 AM (#4077580)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman

Similarly the ‘Britain and its fish’ thread (opened by the same person as this one)?


31 Oct 20 - 02:01 PM (#4077628)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Of course to the retired and not working, lockdown will make little difference, but to the retired and still working like myself of course, it will make some difference.


31 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM (#4077630)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.

To those who believed December was the end of the Labour party. How do you rate your lots chances after this?


31 Oct 20 - 03:50 PM (#4077639)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Dave, odds on the Tories will survive because, as I pointed out above, they stick together in public even when they’re in the shit and squabbling like a troop of monkeys in private.

Labour, however, kick each other’s bollocks very publicly. If they split, and I reckon that’s a very strong possibility, we’re bolloxed - Tory governments for ever.


31 Oct 20 - 04:36 PM (#4077647)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.
In case you haven't seen the news yet, the "furlough" scheme has been extended.
And, once again, the government is not causing deaths. That is the virus. The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths in order to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed.


31 Oct 20 - 05:45 PM (#4077653)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths 
I am not sure I would agree there, Nigel, unless you are invoking the truism that we will all die eventually. Every death delayed is potentially a life saved when we eventually get a vaccine. So I would argue that not overwhelming the NHS is not an ambitious enough target. You should be aiming to have the level low enough that most non-covid NHS treatments can continue and the number who die is as low as possible while we await a vaccine.

And actually the 'Whack-a-mole' strategy could have done that if it was not simply used as an amusing quip. It is essentially what New Zealand has done: get the number of cases really low, then put as many resources as you can muster into a serious detect, test, trace and isolate effort. Testing is irrelevant with effective isolation so this concentration on numbers of tests without the rest is pointless.


31 Oct 20 - 05:51 PM (#4077654)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

... irrelevant without a....


31 Oct 20 - 06:02 PM (#4077655)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Nigel Parsons - they have got the hump because their beloved terrorist hugging Corbyn has been suspendered from the labour party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


31 Oct 20 - 06:23 PM (#4077657)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Not me...


31 Oct 20 - 06:24 PM (#4077658)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

‘Suspendered’? Oooohh Matron! :-)


31 Oct 20 - 06:43 PM (#4077662)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

You really are desperate to get people to look the other way aren't you Bonzo. Trouble is it stopped working once Boris got what he wanted. No one is interested now that they know they backed the wrong horse. Boris is digging his own grave. As well as thousands of others, killing the economy and burying the last shreds of respect England had.


01 Nov 20 - 03:41 AM (#4077693)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

before systems can change people have to change, some of the posters should take a good look at themselves


01 Nov 20 - 03:59 AM (#4077698)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

No Dave the Gnome, I like fun!!!!!!!!!!


01 Nov 20 - 04:27 AM (#4077700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Dave, I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year.

But people keep telling me, “Boris is a great bloke and he’s doing a brilliant job!”.


01 Nov 20 - 05:05 AM (#4077705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Well Bonzo, if your idea of fun is posting inane comments on an obscure forum there isn't really much hope for you is there.


01 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM (#4077708)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Bonzo , i admire your love of dogs ,but that is the best that i can say


01 Nov 20 - 05:52 AM (#4077712)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

My oft-repeated belief is that “anyone who loves dogs can’t be all bad”, but I’m prepared to make an exception...


01 Nov 20 - 06:14 AM (#4077714)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

now now do not be dogmatic.


01 Nov 20 - 09:15 AM (#4077726)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year."

I think it's that but much more as well. Who'd have thought a year ago that a government in a democracy could ORDER people to stay at home almost at the drop of a hat, or tell us that we can't have our families to stay over, or force us to wear masks? Once these edicts are enforced it makes it far easier for the government to do things like it again, under who-knows-what circumstances in the future. It isn't just a brexit diversion, it's a power-grab, and it's all the more frightening when you consider who it is who's grabbing the power.


01 Nov 20 - 12:30 PM (#4077754)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’m sure you make a very valid point, Steve. Nothing this bunch of nasty, greedy, lying crooks do surprises me any more.


01 Nov 20 - 02:21 PM (#4077770)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I am still inclined to suspect extremist ideological factions of the tories
are determined to exploit covid as an opportunist covert lethal weapon,
targeting the teaching profession...


05 Nov 20 - 06:44 PM (#4078388)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

Especially in reference to the Corbyn/Foot analogy I have long been saying "History repeats itself, it has to because no one is listening.

And that applies on grander scales - if you don't like horror stories don't read this prediction History repeats itself. That’s bad news for the 2020s - the article is upbeat only in that we can solve the impending problem "if we choose".

But as with the LP - ya can't solve problems while ya shouting at each other over how to solve the problem. The LP's problem being - how to get to be in a position of power.


06 Nov 20 - 02:00 AM (#4078424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

What the ‘Corbyn/Foot Analogy’ demonstrates, for those willing to look, listen, and learn, is that the UK does not have, and never has had, a natural inclination towards being or becoming a Socialist State. At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre, and no amount of stamping their feet, throwing themselves on the floor, and thcweaming and thcweaming until they’re sick by the Corbyn-supporters will change that.

Even Churchill acknowledged that “Jaw-jaw is better than war-war”. Why can’t the LP get their heads around that simple fact too?


06 Nov 20 - 02:26 AM (#4078426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

politicians are puppets their power is limited the real power is with multi national coporations, here is asong by ma reynolds
.Come sit down beside me before the big T.V.
And watch the funny pictures they have there to look at,
Shampoo for your hair and the last polar bear,
And the man on the moon who was walking around
Then left, leaving junk on the once virgin ground.

There's old timey movies with old fashioned dresses,
The kidnap of babies and other such messes,
There's football and baseball and guys selling cars,
And then there's The Man in the Mask.

Chorus:
They say it's his face, but I just can't believe it.
It looks like a mask that I saw in the store.
It talks with deep feeling about ending some war
And stopping inflation, and it's so fantastic,
You'll cry while you're laughing, and roll on the floor.

Every four years he puts a new mask on.
Each one is worse than the one he had before,
But the words are the same and the same earnest manner,
About ending inflation and stopping the war.

The sponsors paid out a million of millions
To get him up there with his magic routine,
But it's really a bargain, 'cause there's such a margin
In war and inflation and the big T.V. screen
That gives us The Man in the Mask.


11 Nov 20 - 04:33 AM (#4079136)
Subject: BS: lord Kilclooney
From: The Sandman

Earlier this week, Lord Kilclooney - a Member of the House of Lords - posted a message on his social media that has been roundly slammed as racist. In a series of messages about US Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, he demanded to know what happens if “the Indian” becomes president.

Despite the outrage his message caused, he has refused to recognise the damage it did. He even defended himself by saying that, as a landlord, he has Indian tenants (!). Harris’ election as Vice-President was a historic victory, but Lord Kilclooney’s comments have made headlines across the world - sending a dangerous and false message of the kind of country we are.

Frustratingly, he’s got form for this. He tweeted something similar about Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar in 2018, and has also been slammed for similarly racist messages about cricketer Moeen Ali.

That’s why Act Now, a campaigning organisation in Northern Ireland, has launched a petition - to show that these are not our values and we won’t tolerate him acting this way in our name.


12 Nov 20 - 03:48 AM (#4079322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Looks like the lovely Tories are at it again - employing the language of the Alt-Right movement in the US, invoking the expression ‘Cultural Marxism’, described as ‘a conspiracy theory with an anti-Semitic twist’, and protesting against the opening-up of the many untold truths lurking in the darker recesses of our cultural history.

I wonder when the Daily Fail, the Scum, and the Ex-Press will begin a barrage of accusations of ‘anti-semitism’ against them?

I won’t hold my breath.


12 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM (#4079325)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

the uk and the irish governments should introduce free school milk and free school dinners, children should not have to go to school hungry. well done rashford.


12 Nov 20 - 04:13 AM (#4079328)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre,

But we waver ever more. Steadfastly refusing to sit the fence - Aren't We?
In cosmic terms (Donuel help me out here) the LibDems are an unstable Lagrange Point - very apt, "near two large bodies circling each other".


12 Nov 20 - 05:18 AM (#4079333)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)


13 Nov 20 - 02:23 AM (#4079427)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

There are rumours of Dominic Cummings leaving by Christmas 2020.

I am fairly sure, though not 100%, that several years ago there was talk of him staying until Brexit was through. If so, disappearing from the scene just before the end of transition would fit precisely with that plan. There have, however, been a long series of 'Cummings is about to go' stories every six months or so since the 2016 vote. He was leaving for health reasons, then only staying to see Boris become PM, then Boris get elected, and so on, so this could well be another of those. On the other hand he is a handy recipient for the Cabinet to blame for any of the decisions over the last year that did not work out as they wanted.

we will see. With luck, if he goes, the disruptive plans he has initiated for pretty much all governmental bodies will go with him.


13 Nov 20 - 03:40 AM (#4079431)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I think he is leaving for a job with Donald Trump :- D


13 Nov 20 - 05:35 AM (#4079440)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)
Surely then they would still be "Going to school hungry" unless they had a breakfast at home first.

As I understood it, school dinners (during term time) were to keep the children going through the afternoon without needing to go home for lunch. This makes the job easier for teachers (by reducing the to and fro, and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day) and allows for 'free school meals' for those who can't afford them. But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not.


13 Nov 20 - 06:18 AM (#4079443)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Touché, Nigel. I consider myself to have been out-nitpicked!

In spite of my socialist inclinations, I think that certain benefits should be available to all, even the richest, means-testing set aside, as that makes us all stakeholders in the state. Even the top billionaire gets free NHS healthcare at the point of access. Everyone gets the same tax-free allowance up to a handsome £100,000 income a year before the means-testing kicks in. Every child is entitled to free state education. I think that free school meals should be universal too. We can all argue about the feckless and undeserving poor, etc., but taxpayers paying for school meals is as chicken feed next to the indulgently-low top tax rates for big earners and the fact that we turn a blind eye to tax avoidance/evasion. A few years ago I seem to remember reading that, via the latter, we let off the mega-rich to the tune of around a hundred billion a year.


13 Nov 20 - 07:18 AM (#4079453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I think more of the feckless and undeserving rich (not those who make their income through their own talents and dedication, but those who grow their wealth through exploiting other peoples' labours. Those who want more than their entitlement (health, education, 'a place a live'), and resent having to continue to pay their share towards universal entitlement. I know a place to live is not included, but I also remember the first time I went to Poland, and having difficultly in explaining the concept of homelessness.


13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM (#4079454)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day"

Yes.. teachers do need a few hours off work to get some sleep at night...

My wife's school day ends when she switches her laptop and mobile phone off
minutes before she goes upstairs to bed...

.. if she can avoid restless nights worrying about the next day's problems at school...

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...


13 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM (#4079456)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I paraphrase this from something I say yesterday.

I breaks the heart of a socialist to know that people are going hungry so that socialist will gladly feed 100 people, even knowing that 5 of them don't deserve it.

It breaks the heart of a capitalist to know that someone is getting something they don't deserve so that capitalist will happily let 100 people starve rather than have 5 get something they are not entitled to.

Yes, Nigel, I know you will point something out but it sums up attitudes nicely.


13 Nov 20 - 08:25 AM (#4079458)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Millions of tory voting furloughed employees now have the luxury
of lots more free time at home,
to get on social media to moan about scroungers on benefits...


13 Nov 20 - 08:47 AM (#4079459)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

PFR :-D


13 Nov 20 - 12:40 PM (#4079484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

"But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not."

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

Just as an aside, my school was a 20 minute journey by bus from my home, longer because I walked. So add two 20 minute journeys (presuming the bus timetable fell just right) that would allow me just 20 minute to prepare and consume a meal, and wash the pots I should add.

The expression "give your head a shake" comes to mind.


13 Nov 20 - 12:44 PM (#4079485)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...


That may be what you think, but it's not what I said.


13 Nov 20 - 12:47 PM (#4079486)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

It's outrageous giving the poor scum children taxpayer funded free food.

The dirty little oiks will only trade it for drugs and knives...


13 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM (#4079487)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

I'm amazed that every child of your acquaintance got free school meals. How would you even know? I remember having to take in 'dinner money' once a week.
And if both your parents were tax-payers I'm surprised that you got free school meals.


13 Nov 20 - 12:55 PM (#4079489)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - you might not have typed those exact words, but...



What a day, eh..

The ripper and cummings.. which will be most missed...???


13 Nov 20 - 01:12 PM (#4079494)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

The mucking out of the stables. quote Much as i dislike cummings your remark comparing him to the ripper is an insult to the yorkshire rippers victims and tasteless.


13 Nov 20 - 01:17 PM (#4079496)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I didn't read the remark as comparing the two.


13 Nov 20 - 01:27 PM (#4079499)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - Yes.. maybe, but the ripper, as evil as he was, payed for his crimes..

Cummings is still free at large, and will ultimately be responsible
for destroying countless more lives than sutcliffe ever could...


[..and Dick, btw.. I'm in a generous mood.
I gave you an easy one to have a go at me about..]


15 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM (#4079707)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The Guardian’s view - absolutely spot-on as always - of the Cummings and goings at 10, Downing Street. It’ll be interesting to see how Dumber gets on without Dom telling him what to do.


16 Nov 20 - 03:08 AM (#4079780)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

how about postponing brexit untilcovid vaccines have been tried and tested and are successful, we now have boris going down with it again.


16 Nov 20 - 03:24 AM (#4079785)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Not an option, Sandman, I am afraid. Legally, Brexit happened in January. We are no longer members of the EU. The transition period end in December and any extension had to be requested by in June or July. In any case, from a UK perspective, the end of transition date is written in primary legislation and so it would need an act of Parliament to alter it.

Here is a clipping of David Davis from the Express in Jan 2019:
Brexiteer Mr Davis told BBC Today that the EU was "testing the mettle of the British Government. The government is running out the timetable, running out the clock but actually, there are now already signs that the EU knows it needs a deal and it will come back."

He continued: "The simple truth is that they will hold fast to their line - this is the traditional approach of the European Commission, the European Union.

"They will hold fast to their line to the last possible minute and then, if we hold fast to our line, then they will actually come back and renegotiate."


As far as I can see, the entire UK strategy has been what Game Theory refers to as 'Chicken'.   The claim is that all we have to do is stick to whatever we want firmly enough and the EU will concede in the last minute. We still seem to be playing the game today in what could be the last week for negotiations.

The problem, of course, is that if neither side gives up, you have an almighty head-on crash as both sides lose out. Which looks as if it is where we are heading. The sensible thing is to change course, obviously, but that is seen as losing, and neither player wants that.

There are a lot of mathematical Games in Game Theory. It is typical we took the highest risk one.


16 Nov 20 - 04:46 AM (#4079793)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

The EU are not subject to UK law, so if the EU were to decide to stop victimising the majority of the UK population, they could easily extend transition indefinitely until the UK rejoins the EU. he only reason for not doing so would be pure spite towards those of us who are pro-EU/European. Of course we don't know what dark money is influencing the other 27 heads of state to make them victimise us.


17 Nov 20 - 07:35 AM (#4079937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I don't get your meaning SPB. Sorry :-(

In what way is the EU "victimising the majority of the UK population"?


17 Nov 20 - 04:18 PM (#4079983)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

After isolating with his dog, Johnson has now tested positive for kennel cough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


17 Nov 20 - 04:55 PM (#4079991)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

bonzo when you are in a hole stop dogging


17 Nov 20 - 06:43 PM (#4080006)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I'm rip-roaring incandescent about what I've just watched on Newsnight. Kirsty Wark interviewed Jenny Manson (Jewish Voice for Labour and a Corbyn supporter) and then, separately, Louise Ellman (ex-Labour MP and ex-party member and implacable Corbyn opponent), following Jeremy Corbyn's reinstatement to the party. Jenny Manson was constantly interrupted and harried by Wark and was scarcely able to get any point across. Then Louise Ellman was treated gently and politely, almost diffidently, and was allowed to speak at length with hardly any interrupting at all. Blatant bias and well below the standard we should expect from BBC presenters.

I've complained to the Beeb...


17 Nov 20 - 06:48 PM (#4080007)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

you should have heard the venomous rant BBC news allowed marie van der zyl...

Her face was a portrait of fanatical hatred...


17 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM (#4080008)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I think I recorded it.
But Sky+ boxes make it impossible to share recorded files...


17 Nov 20 - 07:01 PM (#4080010)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I missed that: was it tonight and approx how far in? I have iPlayer...
.


17 Nov 20 - 07:08 PM (#4080011)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

BBC News channel

20:15 - 20:25

Wiki: van der zyl

"She is a self-described "fighter" and takes as a compliment the comparison that "the only difference between me and a Rottweiler
is that a Rottweiler eventually lets go".[8]

Her visits to her grandparents gave her, she says, "a great passion for Israel"[1]
and she believes that the Board exists "to promote a sympathetic understanding of Israel."[3]
She has pledged to "defend Israel’s legitimacy and its centrality to Jewish identity".[9]
"


17 Nov 20 - 08:20 PM (#4080012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Grr. Beeb won't let me go that far back. Maybe it's somewhere else and I'll keep looking. Though trying to find her saying anything is a form of sado-masochism...


18 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM (#4080029)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The reinstatement of Corbyn has put Starmer into a very difficult position. The main finding of the ECHR report was that the leadership should not be interfering in the investigations and decisions of the formal complaints procedure. So if Starmer does do anything about the reinstatement he is going against the report himself. Yet you can bet that there will be no end of commentary saying 'Starmer should do this, or that'.   So the NEC has brought Labour anti-Semitism back central stage when all our focus should be the virus and Brexit. It is an utter gift to Johnson in the midst of his woes and damaging to the country as a whole because it is a distraction from those critical concerns.


18 Nov 20 - 04:30 AM (#4080038)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

2 what ifs..

What if Starmer had given Corbyn gentle behind the scenes persuasion
to retire with dignity...???

or..

What if Corbyn had been diplomatically booted up to the Lords...???



Nah.. Corbyns vindictive enemies have too tight a grip on Starmer's
short n curlies..

They'll only settle for Corbyn's head on a pike...


18 Nov 20 - 06:36 AM (#4080045)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

This antisemitism thing isn't going away, ever. The pro-Israel "left" (term used advisedly) lobby in this country (which includes, among many others, those arseholes such as Hodge, Berger, Smeeth, Mann and Ellman and a whole cabal of "Labour Friends of Israel" MPs), along with the Board Of Deputies, will not rest until they have turned Starmer into a led-by-the-nose poodle who auto-condemns any and all criticism of the Israeli regime. So far, he has utterly failed to point out to them and the rest of us that antisemitism (as vehemently opposed to anti-Netanyahu-ism) is a curse that RUNS THROUGH THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY, and that the illegitimate obsessive focus on Labour by these bloody control freaks (a) does nothing to solve the wider issues surrounding racism in this country, (b) will simply perpetuate the reign of right-wing, populist and, yes, RACIST Tories, who are far worse than Labour in almost every regard when it comes to racism. Why, in a poll a couple of years ago it was found that 48% of Tory voters actually characterised themselves as racist, fer chrissake. Anyone for flag-waving piccaninnies? Watermelon smiles? Bank robbers? Letterboxes?

Led-by-the-nose is right. He needs to tell the Manns, Ellmans and the rest to mind their own bloody business and look to the deficiencies and dishonesty of their own side. As for the Board Of Deputies, you are unelected. Enjoy your right to free speech but don't be surprised when we bite back to tell you how your stance serves to strengthen a bellicose regime that represses and discriminates against the Palestinian minority and that is a perpetual running sore in the Middle East. Talk about blind in one eye. That's been known to be called bigotry.

Just flashed up as I was typing this that it's been edicted that Jeremy can't sit as a Labour MP. There'll be a lot of gleeful hand-rubbing going on. What a muddle. What a gift.


19 Nov 20 - 04:35 AM (#4080181)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

starmer is a political idiot. Corbyn can stand at the next election as an independent and win the seat one less seat for labour. the man starmer is as thick as two short planks


19 Nov 20 - 05:04 AM (#4080184)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I imagine his judgement is that he will win more seats elsewhere. He may be right or wrong, but it is not an idiotic position in itself.

More serious, in that respect, are the 28 Labour MPs demanding Corbyn's reinstatement. If a substantial number of these resign the whip - or a similar number resign if Starmer does reinstate Corbyn - then you are not talking of gaining one seat to replace Corbyn's, but perhaps ten that need to be replaced. That's a much higher barrier to surmount.


19 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM (#4080185)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

he is politically idiotic ,corbyn will win his own seat no problem at next election, in the meantime he is splitting the labour party further


19 Nov 20 - 07:19 AM (#4080196)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Politically idiotic is strong words, but I think I agree. Read again the words that Corbyn uttered that got him suspended. He did not deny antisemitism, he didn't say that nothing should be done, he expressed his valid view mildly. No hate speech, just free speech from an MP who no longer held a position in the party. I could just about agree that he'd have been tactically better to keep it zipped at that time, but hey ho, at least he's unspun. He was pounced on for that by a "leader" who was looking fearfully over his shoulder at the pro-Israel lobby (NOT the anti-antisemitism lobby in m'humble). So now he's got himself into this utterly predictable tangle. Jeremy Corbyn looks, by streets, to be the most dignified person in the middle of all this at present. I wonder who will be the first to start baying that 28 antisemite MPs have called for Corbyn to be reinstated. Will it be the Mail or the Board Of Deputies? Or let's get Margaret Hodge to say it to Kirsty on Newsnight!


19 Nov 20 - 07:38 AM (#4080202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

It is just my opinion, naturally, but I think the NEC created the split by reinstating Corbyn. At that point Starmer had a choice of exactly what kind of split, but a split- or at least a major row - was unavoidable.

For my money, the best solution would have been to draft the new disciplinary procedure, ideally getting the ECHR to sign it off, and then review Corbyn's position under the new system. Then he either gets fully brought back in, including the whip, or he stays out, rather than this half and half mixture.


19 Nov 20 - 08:13 AM (#4080207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'll still continue futiley voting Labour,
for lack of a better alternative to never voting at all...

"Labour - The Hopeles Party for Hope"...


19 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM (#4080208)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"s"..

.there it is.. found the litle buger..

I mentioned earlier in the wek
that my keyboard has developed a problem
with double leters...


19 Nov 20 - 08:57 AM (#4080213)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I get totally fed up with factional foot stomping. it is pathetic when the factions threaten to inflict tory vermin on us until they get their way. They are not labour, they are not socialist because all they care about is their own faction having power and authority and they don't give a toss about labour and socialist values.

I was not a supporter of the previous Labour leadership, but I still gave up my time and energy to campaign on behalf of the labour party - and locally we have won every election: Council, GLA, London Mayor, local MP, even the local referendum vote as it was a democratic vote.

Now that leadership has changed as a result of another demographic vote, those who call themselves socialist are throwing their toys out of the pram and almost from day one have proved that they have no loyalty to the labour party at all as all they are interested in is personal power and not giving a toss about our society.

If factional in-fighting screws up the 2024 election, the tories MUST not be allowed to retain power.


19 Nov 20 - 09:24 AM (#4080221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well in my view an injustice was done to Jeremy Corbyn when he was suspended. Of course, he provided ammunition when he spoke out so quickly in the terms he used, but I repeat: he did not deny antisemitism, he spoke out against antisemitism, he did not say that nothing should be done and what he said was miles away from hate speech. I'll tell you summat for nowt: all through the seventies I was, for my sins, a hard-left trade union activist in the East End of London at a time when trade unions were perceived, incorrectly of course, as having too much clout, to be feared (cheers, media). What I learned then was that if you put two lefties together in a room, there will soon be a split. What I also learned is that all the disingenuous pleading for unity came from the more right-wing faction, every time. And what they really meant, every time, was "drop the argument and do things our way." It doesn't and shouldn't work. It's unprincipled for a start. The right in the Labour Party, go as far back as you like, not only disrespects the true socialism of the left ("because it's bad tactics") but routinely tries to sideline it. As in any political party, the quest for seniority provides grave danger of seeding careerism. Jeremy was a shining example of a principled man who shunned that. Keir has fallen for it hook, line and sinker. The only way he can see his ambition sustained is by ditching principle and pandering, pathetically, to the attack dogs behind his back whose antennae for mostly fake antisemitism are sharply tuned.


19 Nov 20 - 11:38 AM (#4080245)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Great post SPB-Cooperator, thanks for that. Party before Personalities - the Golden Rule, understood perfectly by the Tories but not, apparently, by a substantial number of members of the Labour Party.

Get ready for permanent Tory rule.


19 Nov 20 - 12:51 PM (#4080257)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way." A party leadership that thinks that way will forever be the leadership of a split party. Realpolitik.


19 Nov 20 - 01:07 PM (#4080259)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Who'l last longer as leader of their parties, boris or starmer...???


19 Nov 20 - 01:22 PM (#4080264)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I left the Labour party in the late 80's. Our branch had selected a candidate to be our prospective MP after a hustings meeting. We were very happy with the way she, above the other candidates, had presented herself.

At our next branch meeting 4 guys arrived from Central office dressed in Crombie's and red scarfs and told us we couldn't have her as our candidate and we should now select another woman who we didn't know, had never met, had never spoken to and who as we found out had never even visited the town she was picked to represent.

We were disgusted at their attitude and several of us resigned on the night, and others resigned later.


19 Nov 20 - 02:47 PM (#4080268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I would have told them to fuck off!!!


19 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM (#4080271)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

bonz - since of late you sem to be drifting further left in some of your posts.
Maybe time for you to aceopt it and join Labour.

There's not enough honest direct resorts to saying "fuck off!!!" in the party.


19 Nov 20 - 03:05 PM (#4080273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way."

First of all, I’m not ‘the Right’ Steve, I’m Centre-Left. And it’s the Left who are wanting it ‘totally their way’ judging by the evidence here. People like me are saying, “Stop fighting each other, find centre-ground, and DO YOUR JOB which, you Corbynistas seem to have forgotten, is to FIGHT THE TORY GOVERNMENT.

Party members don’t elect Governments, the voting public do that and, in 2019, the voting public told Corbyn resoundingly to Fuck Off. Anyone with an ounce of dignity and self-respect who had led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory - a defeat by the weakest Tory party led by the weakest Tory leader in living memory and with nothing to offer but a one-issue manifesto - would need no ‘gentle behind the scenes persuasion to retire’. Rather than hanging around shit-stirring he’d have been compelled by his own sense of shame to do it of his own volition the day after the election.

I repeat, as I’ve repeated many times - the Party is far, far bigger than any individual, including Corbyn, and members should get their intransigent heads around that unarguable fact, unite behind the current leader, who was democratically elected by those same members, stop wasting the votes of those of us who demonstrated our trust in Labour at the GE and who were failed disastrously, and start working to free the nation from this self-serving, shameless, shameful bunch of Tory rogues currently raping the United Kingdom.

Until that begins to happen, the LP exists for no reason other than to stimulate its members’ vulgar public display of political onanism.


19 Nov 20 - 03:24 PM (#4080277)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'd have thought starmer would have suficient inteligence not to make such a political martyr of Corbyn..

.. unles.. he's doing it deliberately as part of a calculated strategy
to incite mas constructive dismisal from the leftiest members...???


19 Nov 20 - 04:07 PM (#4080281)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Corbyn is making a martyr of himself.


19 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM (#4080291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well, John. Starmer, McCluskey, Hodge, Lansman, Ellman and the Board Of Deputies are all making a hell of a lot of noise. One person who isn't making a noise is Jeremy Corbyn. Hardly the martyr style, that, is it? And let me just put this to you. Read the words that Jeremy Corbyn uttered in reaction to the report that basically damned him. Did he deny antisemitism? No he didn't. Did he say that nothing needed to be done? No he didn't. Did he speak intemperately and with hatred? No he didn't. He expressed some disagreement, in measured terms in my opinion, of a report that he regarded had unfairly excoriated him. So was that sufficient to suspend him? If you say no, though he was unwise to open his mouth at that time, your response by any measure is nothing if not fair-minded. If you say yes, you are effectively arguing against free speech, against that treasured concept of Labour being a broad church. You are also conniving in the opportunism that we have seen in the Party on a number of occasions recently aimed at using even the slightest pretext for getting rid of people who you don't like. Not that they've done much wrong, just that you don't like them because they don't fit your agenda. And before you jump down my throat with a litany of "wrong things" that Jeremy has done, just remember that he was suspended, ostensibly, for his form of words as the report was published. Not for anything else, eh? Or was he? And can you honestly say that that's the bandwagon you're not jumping on? It's not Corbyn who's a martyr. Starmer is making a martyr of the party.

As for left and right, my context in these posts has been the Labour Party. Corbyn, the Campaign Group and union representatives such as McCluskey, among others, are on the left of the party. Starmer and most of his cabinet are on the right of the party. There are far harder lefties outside the party than the people I've named and, in the overall scheme of things, Starmer and co are somewhere in the centre of UK politics ("centre-left" is definitely pushing it in my opinion). It's a bit weird really. Most lefties I've known are puffing their chests out with pride when they get called lefties, but, oddly, very few people ever like to be labelled "right." My remarks with regard to Labour are purely in the context of the party. I would have thought that was obvious, but hey ho.


19 Nov 20 - 07:05 PM (#4080292)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

And on a slightly whimsical note, Priti Patel, who abused her position in government by making secret unauthorised liaisons with the Israeli regime, and who has now been found guilty of breaching ministerial rules via bullying, is likely to get no more than a slap on the wrist. Jeremy, chucked off the Labour benches. Priti, a cabinet minister and the most powerful woman in government. Jeremy, just a backbencher. Quite a contrast, eh?


20 Nov 20 - 01:39 AM (#4080300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i agree with Steve


20 Nov 20 - 07:12 AM (#4080319)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Cheers, Dick.

So Priti was adjudged by a lengthy enquiry to have breached the ministerial code and bullied her underlings. but Boris, on his own and overnight, before anyone has had a proper chance to see the report, sez Oh no she didn't, so end of, right? (We'll see...)

Jeremy Corbyn was adjudged by a lengthy enquiry to have not adequately addressed the antisemitism issue. He acknowledged the issue and accepted that more had to be done, but protested, in mild language, that the issue had been exaggerated (and he wasn't exactly in a minority of one in thinking that, was he?). But he was thrown out of the party, and then, when reinstated by a unanimous vote of an NEC committee, was denied the whip.

Compare and contrast. And don't forget to compare and contrast the levels of "media outrage" being generated by each. A budgie might land on Priti's shoulder whilst the hawks will circle over Jeremy's head...


20 Nov 20 - 07:22 AM (#4080321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'd rather a seagull shat on her head...


20 Nov 20 - 07:26 AM (#4080322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

...Or a rather athletic one that could shit horizontally right on to that smirk....


20 Nov 20 - 08:14 AM (#4080330)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

It is a pity pigs don't fly.....Pottymouth Patel seems to be proud of being xenophobic.


20 Nov 20 - 09:02 AM (#4080336)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report. But it is being reported differently in the Telegraph.
According to the front page:
"Priti Patel 'unintentionally' breached the ministerial code. . . However, the inquiry also found she had become 'justifiably frustrated' by obstructive mandarins who failed to tell her about the impact of her behaviour."

That seems to be in line with her previous claim that there had been no complaints for her to respond to.


20 Nov 20 - 09:12 AM (#4080337)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

*Sigh*. Why am I not surprised at that, Nigel?

And now we're hearing that the government sourced PPE from factories in China that were using North Korean slave labour...


20 Nov 20 - 09:27 AM (#4080340)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

And now we're hearing that the government sourced PPE from factories in China that were using North Korean slave labour...

At the start of the pandemic countries around the world were attempting to source whatever supplies of PPE they could get, and the NHS was suffering through a shortage of such equipment.
Under such circumstances the government were justified in buying what equipment they could, from almost any source.
In better times, when demand does not greatly outstrip supply, you can afford the luxury of selecting your suppliers with greater care.
The same supply and demand rules means that we (as a country) are placing orders for vaccines before they have been thoroughly tested, and from multiple suppliers (10 million here, 40 million there).
Some knowledge of 'market forces' helps people to understand what is happening, and why.


20 Nov 20 - 10:10 AM (#4080341)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Ye gods, Nigel, two posts, two efforts to defend the indefensible...


20 Nov 20 - 10:53 AM (#4080343)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Ye gods, Nigel, two posts, two efforts to defend the indefensible...

No, If you would read, and understand, first. "I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report."

1, I wasn't defending Priti Patel, but pointing out that the report has yet to be published. Until it is then different sources will highlight different parts which may be in the original.
2, It may be possible, with the benefit of hindsight, to show the PPE was sourced from China, but made under unsuitable conditions. But I don't doubt that PPE obtained from other countries (or from UK suppliers) might also have a similar origin. At the time of purchase it was important to get PPE supplies from somewhere, and there was a global shortage.
Would you have preferred that the NHS were told they could have no further PPE until after suppliers (and their whole supply chain) had been given full vetting?


20 Nov 20 - 10:58 AM (#4080345)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

What was reported Nigel was:

"Sir Alex Allan’s findings, based on the Cabinet Office investigation, concluded that Patel’s approach “amounted to behaviour that can be described as bullying” – noting instances of shouting and swearing – and decided that she had breached the ministerial code, although he said her actions may have been “unintentional”.

So the man in charge of the report quite clearly states her action WERE bullying and had broken the ministerial code but tempered that by saying her actions MAY have been unintentional.


20 Nov 20 - 12:38 PM (#4080358)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I would just point out that being "unintentional" does not excuse breaches of law, and rarely codes of behaviour of any kind. After all, almost anyone could claim a behaviour was unintentional, if that was all it took. But of course, the claim she was unaware of such behaviour bears little weight when Sir Philip Rutnam resigned after accusing her of being involved in a "vicious and orchestrated campaign". Even if she denies it, it would be reasonable if you were accused of it to wonder why people might think you were.


20 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM (#4080361)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

From today's Daily Mash.

PRITI Patel has confessed she had no idea that Chinese burns, nutsack drawer-slammings and regular wedgies were what the weak considered ‘bullying’.

The home secretary faces allegations of what civil servants call bullying and she calls ‘robust motivational techniques’, including getting your briefcase thrown onto the roof and swirlies.

She said: “So calling a senior civil servant a four-eyed pisswipe who shags his mum is ‘bullying’ now, is it? Well I didn’t know.

“May I remind you that some of these people insist they are ‘politically neutral’ instead of backing Brexit to the absolute hilt? If that’s not provocation I don’t know what is.

“Yes, perhaps I did flush the occasional lunch down the toilets. Perhaps a few pairs of glasses got stamped on. Perhaps copies of the ministerial code left on my desk, with key passages highlighted, were returned smeared with excrement.

But I am a strong, decisive woman who demands a lot of my employees, and I don’t apologise for that. Now come here. Me and my gang are going to throw you in the bins.”

Conservative MP Eleanor Shaw said: “Priti is not a bully and is a kind, wonderful person. When I hear her coming I definitely do not hide in the toilets.”


20 Nov 20 - 12:53 PM (#4080362)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Aha.. "Plausible deniability" rears it's predictable head again
as a flimsy defence for a high ranking tory wrongdoer...


20 Nov 20 - 02:27 PM (#4080375)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 10:58 AM
What was reported Nigel was:
"Sir Alex Allan’s findings, based on the Cabinet Office investigation . . .


"What was reported" where? and by whom?. (It helps to judge the value of any "quoted" comment)
At least Steve's quote is shown to be from a satirical website.


20 Nov 20 - 03:01 PM (#4080381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

From the actual report Nigel. It is in much of the media.

"“My advice is that the Home Secretary has not consistently met the high standards required by the Ministerial Code of treating her civil servants with consideration and respect. Her approach on occasions has amounted to behaviour that can described as bullying in terms of impact felt by individuals.

To that extent her behaviour has been in breach of the Ministerial Code, even if unintentionally."

You can try and spin it all you want but the facts remain the same. I am appalled that you can even try and defend her.


20 Nov 20 - 03:31 PM (#4080384)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

From the Guardian:

However, Sir Philip Rutnam, who resigned as the Home Office’s permanent secretary after accusing Patel of a “vicious and orchestrated briefing campaign” against him, added to the pressure on Patel by challenging a claim in the bullying report that she had been given no feedback about her behaviour by civil servants, and was therefore unaware of the impact.

The Guardian Today newsletter: the headlines, the analysis, the debate – sent direct to you

 

Read more

“This is not correct,” Rutnam said. “As early as August 2019, the month after her appointment, she was advised that she must not shout and swear at staff. I advised her on a number of further occasions between September 2019 and February 2020 about the need to treat staff with respect, and to make changes to protect health, safety and wellbeing.”

In another remarkable admission, he said he was “at no stage asked to contribute evidence to the Cabinet Office investigation”.


20 Nov 20 - 05:42 PM (#4080395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Doesn't that make her a liar and the investigation a whitewash, or what?

By the way, Nigel, satirical or not, many a true sentiment has been expressed in jest....


21 Nov 20 - 02:05 AM (#4080433)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve - that's very true....

There's a despairingly serious subtext
to most of my sarcastic absurdist comments...


They are not just shite jokes...


21 Nov 20 - 02:44 AM (#4080435)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i have a suspicion that boris and cruella were ex bed mates, pigs may not fly but they seem to fornicate,


21 Nov 20 - 09:54 AM (#4080467)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

ex.. or he still thinks he's in with a chance if he continues 'looking after' her...

If he scratches her back, she might.....


21 Nov 20 - 12:34 PM (#4080484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Following Major and Currie, anything is possible.


21 Nov 20 - 02:02 PM (#4080493)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I was looking at the Kyrgystan tourism website and notice that UK currently has a visa free arrangement by virtue of being an EU member. Have the Foreign Office workers sorted out visa free travel for EVERY country for which EU visa free arrangements currently exist from 1 second past midnight on 1st January, or are they quite happy to face personal retribution form the public for their incompetence if they fail to do so (sort of ironic rant).


21 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM (#4080499)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The Patel saga gets murkier by the day.

In today's Guardian:
====
Boris Johnson’s former adviser on ministerial standards was prevented from interviewing a key witness for his formal bullying inquiry into Priti Patel.

Legal and Whitehall sources have revealed that Sir Alex Allan sought to interview the former top Home Office civil servant Sir Philip Rutnam about his dealings with Patel, but was blocked by government officials.

Allan’s bullying inquiry was launched by the prime minister following the resignation of Rutnam over’s Patel’s alleged behaviour and he is suing the government for constructive dismissal. Sources say Allan was informed he could not interview Rutnam for his independent inquiry because of the legal action.

Allan, however, felt that his inquiry was being denied potentially crucial evidence. The inability of the prime minister’s former ethics adviser to question Rutnam also prompted a “spirited row” within the government’s legal department.

Even so, he uncovered sufficient material to conclude that Patel had broken the code governing ministers’ behaviour.
=====

Whatever the truth of this, why Rutnam was not invited to contribute to the enquiry needs explaining.


21 Nov 20 - 03:37 PM (#4080508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

"I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report."

Well Nigel you've had 24 hours to consider this matter. What is your judgement now.


21 Nov 20 - 03:43 PM (#4080509)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Whatever the truth of this, why Rutnam was not invited to contribute to the enquiry needs explaining.

Might it be that as Rutnam is currently suing the government for constructive dismissal, he has an interest in seeing her dismissed which would support his case? As such, his testimony to the tribunal might be biased.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but it does answer the question.


21 Nov 20 - 03:53 PM (#4080511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

But all the Patel apologist tories who are saying that is the case,
are yet again resorting to type
by closing ranks and automatically maliciously blaming the victim...


21 Nov 20 - 03:57 PM (#4080512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Well Nigel you've had 24 hours to consider this matter. What is your judgement now.

My judgement (not that it would have any effect) is that I have still not seen the report. I have seen quotes about the report, from both sides, but (unless you know of an online full copy) I still have not seen the report.

I'm not giving a conclusion one way or the other based on evidence which I haven't seen. Others may not be so scrupulous.


21 Nov 20 - 04:00 PM (#4080513)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The problem with that, Nigel, is that there are others with stronger motivations to be biased.


21 Nov 20 - 04:01 PM (#4080514)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Nigel.


21 Nov 20 - 04:05 PM (#4080515)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 04:01
Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Nigel.


Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, Raggy.
Do you have access to the report that you can provide?

No? I thought not!


21 Nov 20 - 04:14 PM (#4080516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

The problem with that, Nigel, is that there are others with stronger motivations to be biased.
That is another possibility, but a very difficult view to come to without more evidence, which we're not being given.


21 Nov 20 - 04:40 PM (#4080519)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. and whose interests are best served by controlling and suppressing
availability of evidence...???


23 Nov 20 - 02:31 PM (#4080694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Bank of England governor says a "No-Deal" Brexit would cost more than covid

Speaking to MPs on the Commons Treasury committee, he said the fallout from the pandemic and the second national lockdown in England was having a much bigger short-term impact on the economy. However, “the long-term effects, I think, would be larger than the long-term effects of Covid. But … it would be better to have a trade deal, yes, no question about it.”

Nice to know, I suppose.


24 Nov 20 - 03:01 AM (#4080759)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

On this last page alone we have discussed the Labour party divisions, Brexit, government contracts and Priti Patel's bullying behaviour. It really is about time the ridiculous rule about only having one UK politics thread is removed. There has been no acrimony or long running battles in the thread for weeks. The previous problems have been resolved. There are numerous threads about Donald Trump. Come on, Mods. It is about time!


24 Nov 20 - 10:14 AM (#4080796)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

the Now Show Radio 4. The closing song (at approx 25:30 mins) by Flo & Jo a tribute to Dolly Parton part funding a vaccine came up with the immortal line:

Not all blondes are bimbos (except the one in number 10).

A tribute with bite. Yea!


25 Nov 20 - 09:44 AM (#4080919)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjhHhL_15Nw&ab_channel=DoubleDownNews

Definitely worth watching...


25 Nov 20 - 05:42 PM (#4080945)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

thanks for that pdf, the most sensible comment i have seen on the question for ages. i can't understand why keir starmer is so keen to attack it. there surely can't be much to be gained by going along with the far right israeli government line. he is just out to appease the daily mail and cause trouble, obviously - but why?


25 Nov 20 - 06:21 PM (#4080950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Jesus, that was powerful. I watched ur. it with tears in my eyes. I suppose that makes me an antisemite...


25 Nov 20 - 07:12 PM (#4080954)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Delete the ur.


26 Nov 20 - 06:46 AM (#4081012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I have been chatting to PFR about Bluetooth ear phones too so took the opportunity to test something using that clip. Yep. Powerful stuff and I agree with every word she says.


28 Nov 20 - 06:27 AM (#4081186)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well whaddya know? Rishi Sunak's wife is richer than the Queen, and he's failed to declare almost all of this in the official register of ministers' interests, as he should have...
See Guardian.


28 Nov 20 - 07:43 AM (#4081191)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Here's the link

Thing is, it will be ignored by Bozzer. He is of the Trump school of thought that this makes Sunak a very clever chacellor...


28 Nov 20 - 10:30 AM (#4081202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

What gets me about this, apart from Dishi Rishi's dishonesty, is the spin. His wife is one of the hundred richest women in Britain. His wife is richer than the Queen.

But hang on a minute...

Where I come from, when you're MARRIED to someone, and they're rich, and as long as it's a proper marriage an' all that and not some shady arrangement, then if she's very very rich then he's just as very very rich... What's mine is thine an' all that...

For richer for poorer....

What am I missing here?


28 Nov 20 - 01:00 PM (#4081224)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I think you are missing a tenet of the Tory creed, Steve.

What's yours is mine and what's mine is my own.

Presuming the latest Mrs S is of the same political persuasion as her hubby, he has no chance of getting his hands on her cash. He will continue to rob the poor to give to the rich instead.


28 Nov 20 - 02:19 PM (#4081236)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

WARNING WARNING - SHIFTY TW@T ALERT...!!!!!

Nadhim Zahawi appointed as vaccine rollout minister


Well.. that inspires confidence...

Every time I've seen him interviewed on the news,
he's evasive, waffling, repetitive, nervously uncomfortably squirming and sweating;

Looks like you've just caught him red handed rummaging through your underwear drawer..

Yeah.. top choice appointment to such a serious responsibility...


28 Nov 20 - 06:44 PM (#4081263)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Couldn't agree more, pfr. As soon as I heard the news I clasped my hand to my head (which wasn't as aching as usual, as, well, it is Saturday night and well past Prosecc-o'clock...)

Can't wait to hear that we've got the "capacity" to vaccinate twenty million, but, so far, as of late Feb, we've managed a couple of hundred in Surbiton... and that millions of vaccines are "lost in the post" (my old mum's excuse for not sending me a birthday card...) Maybe that bloke down the pub in Mark Hancock's village, you know, the guy who makes paper coffee cups, will manage at least a few hundred glass vials by then... Anyone know a good glass-blower??


29 Nov 20 - 02:29 AM (#4081276)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

what a cock up,i despair, and why a 70 percent vacinr instead of a 95 per cent , is it because its cheaper


29 Nov 20 - 04:01 AM (#4081279)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

You can add to that the proposal that the 'Winter Plan' now looks like it will be coming to end at the start of February rather than end of March, at which point the MPs will be able to vote on something to replace it.

Who cares if we have a pandemic to control? Let's keep promising to end our plans for no better reason than keeping Tory MPs on side. (The bills are likely to pass anyway with Labour support, but that's embarrassing for Johnson.)

If you recall, the only reason the lockdown is ending on 2nd December was because Johnson had to promise it would end then to placate the backbenchers. It was obvious something would have to replace it, but that's a problem for another day: concentrate on getting the lockdown vote through.

This is exactly the same strategy: promise it is ending but don't give a thought to what comes after.


29 Nov 20 - 10:21 AM (#4081306)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

In London Yesterday

Why wasn't everyone involved placed into compulsory supervised quarantine for 14 days and allowed to go home once they have paid for and got a negative test in order to safeguard their communities?

I am looking forward to the government making a legally binding announcement that their will be no further restrictions if, because of their behaviour, their is a spike in the number of infections.


29 Nov 20 - 10:34 AM (#4081309)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

All of those bare-faced protesters are pretty alarming. No attempt to distance, no masks dangling around their necks ready to put on in close situations. Even just people with their noses out of their masks defeat the entire purpose of the mask, they might as well not have one on. It's difficult to shame them into compliance, and I'm sure it is the influence of Trump's bellicose behavior that has emboldened others around the world.


29 Nov 20 - 12:38 PM (#4081318)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

All the worst damaging political shit Britain is enduring has ideological origins,
funding, and string pulling,
from alt right America..

We have too many influential fake British patriots in Govt, mainstream and social media,
deviously selling us out to their USA pay masters...


30 Nov 20 - 05:35 AM (#4081391)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Now it seems that Sunak's hedge-fund missus has been involved in companies that channel investments through Mauritius in order to avoid taxes payable in India. "Well, that's entirely your own business, dear..."


30 Nov 20 - 05:56 AM (#4081392)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Not saying our PM is a poor judge of character..

.. but..

If Jimmy Saville were still breathing,
boris would probably appoint him as special adviser to Hospitals and Schools...


30 Nov 20 - 02:33 PM (#4081441)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Nah, it would be child protection.


01 Dec 20 - 01:43 AM (#4081488)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

This just popped up on my youtube feed...

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgwCoxZ03yLox8xeRit4AaABCQ

"Sky News
11 hours ago
A backlash over a council's plan to spend £100,000 on the unveiling of a Margaret Thatcher statue
has prompted more than 1,000 people to promise they will turn up at an "egg throwing contest" on the same day...
"

https://news.sky.com/story/margaret-thatcher-statue-more-than-1-000-vow-to-attend-egg-throwing-contest-at-unveiling-amid-backlash-12147303

[clicky wont work..]

"Margaret Thatcher statue: More than 1,000 vow to attend 'egg throwing contest' at unveiling amid backlash
The £300,000 bronze statue will be placed on a 10ft-high plinth to prevent vandalism....
"


01 Dec 20 - 02:53 PM (#4081562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

if people want to demonstrate against wearing masks they should be allowed to providing they are social distancing.
Whethet the intention of governments is to control people for the sake of controllling , i do not know, does anyone else know, do yiu know spb co operator, no of course you do not.
but you are developing alarming totalitarian tendencies, however a lot of controlling is occurring, i wear masks in supermarkets ,but none of us know how effective they are, i think social distancing is more important,
i have noticed how this is being used to divide people against another ,people haranguing others for not wearing masks, divide and rule again, some people behaving in over the top aggressive attitudes to others for not wearing masks


01 Dec 20 - 03:44 PM (#4081565)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

It isn't totalitarianism, it is care for myself, the people I love, my friends and my community. it is not so much whether or not people should be forced to look after their own safety, and if they have a death wish, that is their own choice. However, thus was a case where people protesting were not practicing social distancing, and when they go into their workplace the next working day, can their employers guarantee that they have not picked up an infection they are bringing to work, Can the school teachers guarantee the same about the protestors' children?

Nobody enjoys the restrictions, and in my view the government have twice waited until the horse have bolted before closing the stable door.


01 Dec 20 - 03:47 PM (#4081567)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Now I may be wrong but if people are demonstrating about wearing masks I don't think they are going to be too bothered about social distancing.

Just my tuppence worth.


02 Dec 20 - 01:40 AM (#4081598)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

STEVE how effective are masks,just answer the question/
QUOTE SPB
Why wasn't everyone involved placed into compulsory supervised quarantine for 14 days. THAT IS THE ATTITUDE OF A TOTALITARIAN
you are making an assumption that they have covid 19.
RAGGY TASH,you are making a sweeping statemrent that all those protestors are the same and have exactly the same opinions, that is as wide of the mark as suggesting that all people who wear masks feel the same way about it.
however i have witnessed people who choose not to wear masks being verbally abused in supermarkets , that is out of order. and is an example of governments getting people to turn on each other divide and rule, i have also seen people wearing masks not giving social distance to others
one person wearing a mask had the audacity to brush me while trying to get to the hand sanitiser. some people wear a mask and seem to forget about social distancing


02 Dec 20 - 02:54 AM (#4081600)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The science is dead simple and summarised by round about the only good three word catchphrase this government had come up with. Hands. Face. Space. A combination of all three will help to reduce the spread and everyone should comply. Apart from anyone with genuine medical issues, those purposely flouting those rules are simply knobheads. Those abusing people for not wearing masks are not much better but at least they are not dangerous.


02 Dec 20 - 03:09 AM (#4081601)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

but at least they are not dangerous. quote
but what if they fart, can they still spread the virus whilst wearing a mask? i was in a supermarket and someone did a really smelly one, and nobody knew who it was.


02 Dec 20 - 03:22 AM (#4081605)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i am not extracting the urine , but there appears to be medical disagreement on tthe dangers of passing wind and the virus in public


02 Dec 20 - 03:28 AM (#4081606)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

but, dave, that pillock that brushed up against me wearing a mask to get at the hand sanitiser was possibly dangerous, he touched me unnecsssarily, not just a pillock but a knobhead


02 Dec 20 - 03:34 AM (#4081608)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yep, absolutely, Dick. Hands. Face>. Space.
02 Dec 20 - 03:36 AM (#4081609)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Just a thought on those who spout freedom of choice.

Wonder if they would be happy if I chose to walk round with no pants and shit on the pavement?


02 Dec 20 - 04:09 AM (#4081612)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

they spout freedom of choice not to wear a mask they are not asking to shit on the pavement,
now i do not mind them not wearing a mask if they keep their distance, but people who wear a mask but come close and touch me imo are more dangerous., particularly ironic as he was trying to get to the hand sanitiser
as for you mooning ,
you dont have the figure for it and as for shitting on the pavement it is against the law.
this is the situation in ireland
When must I wear a face covering?
Public transport

You must wear a face covering while using public transport.

If you have a reasonable excuse to not wear a face covering, you should tell the driver or inspector. Read ‘Exceptions’ below for information on reasonable excuses.

Drivers of a public transport vehicle do not have to wear a face covering if they are:

    Alone in a compartment
    Separated from passengers by a screen
    In the vehicle but there are no passengers getting on or off
the people who were demonstrating against wearing a mask were outside.
that is not breaking the law however if they were demonstrating but not social distancing that is different,
but spb insisting that they should be told to self isolate is behaving in a totalitarian manner
he knows nothing about them but assumes they are working and have children.
meanwhile schools remain open in the uk and it is not compulsory to wear masks
Schools and colleges will have the discretion to require face coverings in indoor communal areas where social distancing cannot be safely managed if they believe that it is right in their particular circumstances
why are schools open ,
bloody stupid, they could catch up with their education with a extra months ion the summer , which would mean that by then vaccination would have been rolled out. meanwhile schoolteachers are being put at risk


02 Dec 20 - 04:33 AM (#4081613)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yea, ok, shitting on the pavement may be a bit extreme but it they are spouting freedom to not wear masks, what about my freedom to not wear pants?:-)


02 Dec 20 - 04:37 AM (#4081614)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

well that is against the law too, its called indecent exposure, i am guessing you mean naked, when you say not wearing pants , not wearing trousers and not underpants.


02 Dec 20 - 04:41 AM (#4081615)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

and you are free to got to a nudist camp and dingle your dongle as long as you dont dingle your dongles and get too close, but there are probably no nudist camps open, or m,aybe y0u can wear a mask over your john thomas, try doing that in your local supermarket thats proibably ok if you have amask over your face and a willy warmer over your tresticles and bjollocks , try it out and let me know


02 Dec 20 - 05:09 AM (#4081616)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Telling me I must wear pants is totalitarian!


02 Dec 20 - 05:20 AM (#4081621)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

no, its the law, you can be fined for indecent exposure ,it is not breaking the law to make outdoor protests provide you socially distance , it is totalitarian for steve to insist that they all isolate when he does not know anything about them.or whether they are covid free
it interests me to spot potential controllers.


02 Dec 20 - 06:24 AM (#4081625)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Looks like the UK will get the vaccine before the USA


02 Dec 20 - 06:46 AM (#4081627)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Not so Dick, I didn't make any assumptions I responded to your statement:

"if people want to demonstrate against wearing masks they should be allowed to providing they are social distancing."

If anyone was making an assumption it was you.


02 Dec 20 - 06:47 AM (#4081628)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Viruses are carried in moisture droplet, not methane emissions. Underwear and trousers serve the purpose of **** coverings as masks do as face coverings.

The idea of mass interment is of course ironic, but taking into account the almost certain evidence that the crowds at the football match in Liverpool and the horse races at Cheltenham made the first wave worse than it could have been, gathering in crowds to protest and not wearing face coverings or socially distancing while doing so is irresponsible and has a potential public health risk. The real issues is that the more people someone who is infected comes in contact with, the greater the rate of reinfection. That isn't politics, it is mathematics.

I don't have problems if people want to put themselves at risk, as long as they don't expect help when things go pear-shaped for them - talk to anyone who does mountain rescue as a volunteer or for a living, or RNLI/Coastguard who have to rescue holidaymakers from inflatable toy dinghies. I am concern about people who are cavalier about putting other people at risk.

Restrictions are horrible, but they won't go away while mobs of people flout them just because they don't like being told to take responsibility. Also, if we had a government that faced up to its public health responsivities in a timely manner, then this discussion probably wouldn't even be happening.


02 Dec 20 - 06:55 AM (#4081629)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

You're a lucky man if you have both tresticles and bjollocks, Dick. Good luck finding a willy warmer man enough to do the job...

I was in the pub and a bloke sidled up to me at the bar, saying, Hey mate, between you and me we have five bollocks. Why, said I, have you only got the one?

I'm not a mask dissenter or an anti-mask campaigner, and I wear them where required at all times, but, loud and proud, I say that masks are probably more bad than good when I see the misuse they are routinely put to. Wot a lot of people don't realise, when they feel all safe behind their masks and forget all about social distancing, is that not all viruses are inside big sneezy drops that get trapped in the fabric, that virus particles are virtually non-filterable, and that mask wearers who constantly fiddle with the damn things, which is an awful lot of them, probably have a lot more virus on their hands than people who don't wear masks. Yet mask wearing is compulsory whereas hand-washing isn't. You couldn't make it up. Let's stick to the law this time but determine NEVER to let a government control us in this way ever again. Saw a good tweet yesterday which said that I'm not allowed to go to my mum's for tea in her house yet I can have my minge waxed by a total stranger...


02 Dec 20 - 07:41 AM (#4081632)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Using hand sanitisers whenever I pass one helps with that problem - even if it does dry the skin on my hands. My better half has a bigger problem because of eczema from skin allergies. (does anyone know why we say exma and not exzeema - decades of lazy speaking?). Surely the answer in favour of masks is that if we cough on someone, the droplets have a much higher viral load than if we breath on someone. I still find it ridiculous when people still spout on about masks being impervious to oxygen and carbon dioxide. Maybe they are using polythene masks???


02 Dec 20 - 07:59 AM (#4081635)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

then dont cough on anyone use your hand, its easy.


02 Dec 20 - 08:12 AM (#4081636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

That's fine if you don't touch things that other people will touch after.


02 Dec 20 - 08:33 AM (#4081640)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i wont be touching you


02 Dec 20 - 12:41 PM (#4081683)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

..a year of covid is tending to bring out the inner conspiracy theorist rebel nutter
in even the previously most sensible folks...

However, all the pre-covid nutters are now completely nucking futs...!!!


02 Dec 20 - 12:55 PM (#4081686)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Maybe this bloke got it right.

And Dick, maybe you should stop telling people to use their hand. People may think you're an expert at it...


02 Dec 20 - 01:20 PM (#4081688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I've never tried nuckin' a fut, but when I was younger I did enjoy muffin' the mule...


02 Dec 20 - 02:03 PM (#4081692)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

We were in The Sportsman at Hayfield and saw they had duck muffin on the menu. You can imagine the conversation.

They did have the classic three plaster ducks on the wall and we wondered if they had already been muffed...


02 Dec 20 - 02:04 PM (#4081693)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and 400!


07 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM (#4082298)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Looks like crashing out is inevitable. Why am I not surprised.

An economist interviewed on the news said food will likely to be more expensive and not as readily available. Got to look at the bright side I suppose though. Dishwashers will be cheaper.

I hope all those who were fooled by Boris's Bus and Farage's Frauds will be happy washing all those dishes that have not had any food on them :-(


07 Dec 20 - 06:06 PM (#4082307)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Possibly, Dave, but I am prepared to wait a few more days to see how things turn out. If a deal is proposed, there is then the UK Parliament and the EU gauntlets to run. So things don't look good, but we will see soon enough.


07 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM (#4082315)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

There are bound to be a few problems as it will take a while to settle down. It will be a few years before we are able to tell if we are better off or not.i don't think we will be but time will tell.


07 Dec 20 - 07:17 PM (#4082324)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK...!!!????? [Wtff for more sensitive folks...]

Not seen this reported on any BBC news...

Labour Suspends Prominent Jewish Activist For Defending Jeremy Corbyn


If this hadn't just turned up on my random youtube feed,
I'd be none the wiser...


07 Dec 20 - 10:38 PM (#4082358)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

Watching an American Public Broadcasting television article about Brexit using the term "Hard Brexit" multiple times.

Some good comments from a British economist including the following cautions regarding Hard Brexit long term fallout:

a smaller England with essentially constricted borders
the Good Friday agreement threatened
diplomatic ill feelings between Europe and the U.K., uncertainty with U.S. relations.

A point that was new to me but probably not to many of you was that the Europeans have a need to not let the U.K. look like it got a great deal, because then further exits become more attractive. And I suppose that U.K. has an interest in keeping Scotland aboard while all this is happening as well.

And I believe many of you feel that Boris favors a Hard Brexit anyway.

Canada and Quebec take notice!


08 Dec 20 - 03:02 AM (#4082375)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Unfortunately, Robomatic, many favoured a hard Brexit. Trouble is that they believe this means that the UK will keep all the benefits of being in Europe, be able to keep out Johnny Foreigner and, once again, rule the waves. Boris convinced them that he could achieve this. They believed him. Boris may be the worst prime minister we have ever had but, as a con man, he has no equal.


08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM (#4082378)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.

Or to put it less dramatically, all of the costs due to disruption during the few years Rain Dog mentions have to be recovered before you can even think of being better off. If, for example, during that time a long term contract comes up and because of the disruption it goes to another country as supplier, it may be decades before it comes up again so the business concerned (and hence to some extent the UK) is disadvantaged for all that period.

I thought Zoe Williams described it quite well in a recent article

So there emerged two discrete, parallel contexts for the discussion: one completely abstract, in which democracy must be upheld and sovereignty restored; the other completely concrete: who do you sell herring to if you don’t want to eat it, and where on earth do you have an Irish border? Never able to knit those two spheres back together, we had instead this jarring dualism, where we’d talk grace notes in Westminster (take control of our money, borders and laws!), and car plant closures outside Westminster, and those discussions never progressed since they were never informed by one another.

Whether the country thrives or not depends on the concrete: the herrings, the cars, the sheep exports, the services provided and so on. Sovereignty is only really relevant (in trade) to the extent it affects those.


08 Dec 20 - 03:44 AM (#4082380)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

yes PFR thankyou for that video clip.
mean while Hillary Benn is very quiet is he watching which way the wind is blowing, IS HE waiting for Starmer to destroy himself


08 Dec 20 - 05:08 AM (#4082389)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i am sure that not everybody who voted leave, voted for a hard brexit some [i think ] were under the impression that there were options like norway or canada or switzerland , there should be another clearer referendum, this is an important issue and people should know exactly what they are voting for


08 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM (#4082392)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

It'll not be too surprising if a significant number of the 60,000 and rising covid fatalities,
voted yes for brexit...

..that'd take a chunk out of the miniscule majority
looking forward so enthusiastically to leaving the EU..


My sense of humour is too dark sometimes...


08 Dec 20 - 06:25 AM (#4082396)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.


Good argument which could be applied to those in Calais looking to make a risky crossing of the channel.
For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.


08 Dec 20 - 06:43 AM (#4082398)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Definitely, Nigel. There are those who prepared to let the country take the risks or bear the costs. I would say, though, I see a significant reluctance on their part to elaborate how severe those risks or costs are. Even what they mean by 'short term' is very hard to pin down when they use it phrases like like 'disruption in the short term'.


08 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM (#4082401)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.


08 Dec 20 - 08:17 AM (#4082406)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

..great metaphor..

..a lot of 'em are already dropping dead from disease,
before they even crawl into the punctured leaky rubber dinghies
attempting to cross the treacherous river brexit...


08 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM (#4082425)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

Brexit River will turn out to be a creek for most people.Nigel Farage , Boris and a few others will be able paddle their way out of it.


09 Dec 20 - 04:17 AM (#4082556)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Nigel,

I am thinking of taking up archery as a hobby, and I require you to put an apple on your head so I can have a go at sharpshooting. As I have no practice - I last did archery at school in 1978 - I am aware of the risks if I am an inch or two out with my aim. But you need to fully accept those risks.

No ifs, no butts (pun intended).


09 Dec 20 - 08:25 AM (#4082585)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.

As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum. They were not accepted by the majority of voters then, and I doubt if they would be now.


09 Dec 20 - 09:03 AM (#4082590)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Stop trying to delude yourself - and us. Control is shared by the 28 states, and the bigger your state the more say you have. As one of the biggest states we had plenty of say, including the possibility of vetos over many major proposals. There is no European army because we said no, for example. That doesn't amount to "little or no control" in my book. The fact is, Nigel, that the UK willingly joined the consensus over changes to regulations and EU law almost all the time - because you can't get bad laws past all 28 states. The EU is about consensus, not control. Which is not to say that grievous mistakes, over Greece for example, can't be made...

"As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum."

But it's OK for you to trot out the lies that fooled millions into voting brexit...


09 Dec 20 - 10:12 AM (#4082601)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel, had we have remained in the EU and our standard of living had taken a dive due to that, I would have happily joined you in castigating the EU.

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out. It has been pointed out that there will be tough times ahead and even the most ardent Brexiteer has now accepted that.

Until such a time as the losses we will suffer are recovered and we have surpassed our current standard of living I will continue to lay the blame at your door. If it ever happens that we make up for economic, social and cultural losses and then surpass our existing standards you are welcome to say "I told you so". I shall not be holding my breath.


09 Dec 20 - 10:58 AM (#4082615)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out

Oh, I am sure no blame will be put on that if there is any remote chance of blaming covid-19 instead.

Yes, covid-19 will hit hard. That does not mean Brexit is not a factor if we have problems.


09 Dec 20 - 11:48 AM (#4082619)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave. In fact, had it not been for the time and energy wasted on the farcical handling of Brexit I am convinced that we would have been better equipped to handle the virus. So that is also Nigel's fault ;-)


09 Dec 20 - 12:25 PM (#4082623)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave

Indeed, but surprisingly recently in some respects. It was still possible in 2009 for an MP to be shamed for buying a Mars Bar on expenses.


09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM (#4082625)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

much as i agree, there looks like a massive cock up , it is uncalled for to say that it is nigels fault. Please can we try and be civil when we disagree about politics


09 Dec 20 - 01:14 PM (#4082628)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

As much as we enjoy friendly bickering banter with our mudcat mate Nigel,
we do know it wasn't only him wot dunnit..

Obviously he has far too many guilty accomplices for us to include them all by name individually..

That just wouldn't be practical..

So we'll just have to settle for acknowledging Nigel,
who is friendly enough to talk to us,
and the known named leaders of the anti political he is an active member of...


09 Dec 20 - 01:29 PM (#4082629)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

oops.. that last sentence somehow got scrambled between proof reading and submitting...


"and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."


09 Dec 20 - 01:35 PM (#4082631)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

So, Dick, who is going to take responsibility for Brexit? Choices are all well and good, as was the power given in the referendum. But with the power to make choices for the entire population comes great responsibilty. Someone needs to accept that responsibility and as Nigel is the only one on Mudcat espousing the benefits of Brexit we can only assume he accepts that responsibility.


09 Dec 20 - 02:29 PM (#4082638)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."

There seems to be a few members of that group.


10 Dec 20 - 03:00 AM (#4082697)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Cameron should take responsibilty, he took the political gamble.,, then to a lesser extent Farage and Johnson
being rude to another mudcat member who supports brexit does not help political discussion or solve anything,


10 Dec 20 - 03:30 AM (#4082699)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

If Nigel thinks anyone here is being rude to him,
presumably he's tough enough to tell us himself...???

It's a bit like when Ake popped up today [before his post was deleted]
to lecture us on what Nick Dow [or Mr Dow, as Ake smarmily referred to him] was really trying to say..

My polite reply to him was:

"Since you appear to have developed mind reading powers since we last met,
that could come in very handy...

Though I'm sure Mr Dow is more tha capable of talking for himself,
rather than have you voice his inner thoughts on his behalf...???
"...

Anyway..

Brexit last minute drama deadline negotiations..

what a pathetic farce...!!!


10 Dec 20 - 03:50 AM (#4082700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Dick, I'm not being rude to Nigel. I am saying that because he voted for Brexit it is his fault we are leaving the EU. Ok, I know there were many more who voted the same but as he choses to be their voice on here he is accepting the responsibility. As to helping political discussion or solving anything. Really? Do you think that an obscure minority music forum has ever helped to solve any of the world's political issues?


10 Dec 20 - 03:56 AM (#4082702)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I agree. Nigel is quite capable of defending himself if he wishes. Equally, he is quite entitled not to get into an argument if that is his preference.

Blame and responsibility are subtly different. We all have to take responsibility for our decisions and actions, and should not object to being asked to account for them (though we are entitled to ignore the request.) So it is fair to expect people to take responsibility for how they voted. If they agreed that some disruption might occur, for example, then if it does they should be willing to say they accepted and still accept that as part of the necessary price.

Blame, though, is harder. I anticipate hearing quite a few Brexiteers saying over the next year that the problem was all in how it was implemented: A no-deal Brexit, for example, could have been decided at the start of the transition, giving every business a year or more to adapt to address any disadvantages and ready themselves to take advantage of any benefits. It would have given time to recruit border staff, implement and test IT systems and all the rest. This is an argument familiar from the previous decade about whether communism was 'never properly tried'. While I think no-deal a dreadful outcome, I can see some merit in that argument. If you were going to end up in no-deal, there were better paths to get there, and those choices were made by governments, not voters.

Equally if you are aiming for a deal, you had many alternatives. Using some of the conventional game theory labels, you could have played the stag hunt, rather than chicken.   We opted for chicken, which typically has the most extreme outcomes - you tend to win big or lose big. Guess where we look as if we are heading?


10 Dec 20 - 04:08 AM (#4082704)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

previous decade
I meant 'previous century'. How time flies!


10 Dec 20 - 04:22 AM (#4082705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

There are of course 2 sides involved in these negotiations. The EU were not happy with the decision for us to leave but once the decision was made they let us get on with it.BUT they are.mindful of the fact that they will not want to make it look to other members, that leaving the EU "might" appear not to involve too many negatives.Some other EU members may well be waiting to see how we get on once things settle down. We are living in uncertain times.


10 Dec 20 - 05:53 AM (#4082712)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

ridiculous, Cameron is the person who is responsible he gave the refendum, why not blame jeremy corbyn or trump


10 Dec 20 - 05:55 AM (#4082713)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

how about blaming denis skinner? he was anti europe, however he was not in a posituion to grant a referendum, nor was corbyn nor was trump nor was nigel


10 Dec 20 - 07:30 AM (#4082718)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I doubt if any of them have even heard of Mudcat, Dick. I do blame Cameron for caving in to the right wing populists but he is not here. Anyone who voted leave has joint responsibility for causing this chaos and at least one of them is here to read my complaints.


10 Dec 20 - 07:56 AM (#4082719)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

And at least that blame (if it is right) can be spread a long way. More than half the voting public voted to leave the EU. That will spread that blame extremely thinly.
Also there is the matter of Barnier originally saying that he would only offer the UK the same terms as Canada, but then, apparently, withdrawing that option. Where does the blame for that lie? I would suggest that some of it lies with the BBC and the remain camp. They seem to have convinced the EU that, if the EU held its nerve, and didn't offer a good deal, then the referendum would be overturned. While we still had Theresa May that might have come true. But now it is the EU that is playing chicken and they haven't realised that the game has changed.
If we leave on WTO terms (called 'no deal' by some) then we are out, and negotiations can re-start in earnest, with the EU negotiating from a totally different position.
France look as if they want to scupper any deal, and insist that the EU must not give in on fisheries, hence the attempt to get an 80/20 split. If we leave on WTO terms then the UK regains full cotrol of our coastal waters, and France will be looking to increase from zero%. A totally different position.
I would like to see UK get a good deal, but still feel that " 'No deal' is better than a bad deal".
We will know within three weeks.


10 Dec 20 - 08:11 AM (#4082721)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half." I can, of course, process your meaning, but the way you put was very spun brexit-populist-Tory...


10 Dec 20 - 08:41 AM (#4082722)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

And here we are with 3 weeks to go.
Get ready for Brexit the government tells us. Well it would be helpful if someone told us what the regulations will be on the 1st of Jan.
Get ready for Brexit the EU tells their member states. Well it would be helpful if someone told EU companies if they will have to pay tariffs on their imports from the Uk or if their exports to the UK will be liable to tariffs.
Some negotiations huh? Some negotiators.


10 Dec 20 - 09:00 AM (#4082725)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

"Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half."

Neither is 43.35% but then it was a long time ago.


10 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM (#4082728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

But now it is the EU that is playing chicken and they haven't realised that the game has changed.

Can you elaborate on that Nigel? As far as I can see, both sides are still playing chicken and nothing has changed in that respect. Being prepared to pay the cost of losing is part of the game. There is a list of the standard 'game theory' games here, and to mind 'Chicken' is still the best fit. Which do you think is better?

Personally, I think the game was initiated when David Davis was saying all the UK needed to do was stick to its demands and the EU would give in at the last minute, which is as textbook an example of 'chicken' as you could hope for.


10 Dec 20 - 09:59 AM (#4082733)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Where does the blame for that lie?

It lies with those that supported Brexit, Nigel. Had you and the others not voted that way the situation would never have arisen.


10 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM (#4082744)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

"From: Steve Shaw -
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:11 AM
Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half." I can, of course, process your meaning, but the way you put was very spun brexit-populist-Tory..."

Steve, when will you understand that "the voting public" means the public who vote. Recreating the figures to include people who were entitled to vote but didn't, or (as you have tried in the past) to show the number who voted leave as a percentage of the total population, is to misquote the figures.

(roughly) of those who voted 52% voted leave, and 48% remain.
If you must reduce the 52% to 38% by choosing a different 'whole' then the number voting remain must also be reduced (to 48%*38/52). The relationship between the two figures will still remain 58/42.


10 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM (#4082746)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

It lies with those that supported Brexit, Nigel. Had you and the others not voted that way the situation would never have arisen.
And had you, and others, not voted remain the decision to leave would have been unanimous, and the attempts to thwart Brexit would never have arisen.
Alternate history lies in the precinct of Science Fiction. It does not necessarily make for a good discussion.


10 Dec 20 - 10:52 AM (#4082752)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The "attempts to thwart Brexit" would never have arisen if the vote had been remain. There are situations that are more likely than others and remaining in the EU would have been far more predictable than the leap into the dark we are currently engaged in. Don't be silly Nigel, it doesn't become you.


10 Dec 20 - 01:33 PM (#4082772)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

As I said Nigel, I am fully capable of processing your meaning. But the way you put it was typical Tory spin. It's perfectly possible to interpret "voting public" as "electorate," and you know it. You could have said "of those who voted," but then, of course, you'd have been forced to give us that more honest but rather thin-looking statistic (38%, right?). Had you said "electorate" you'd have been obliged to qualify your "more than half" claim too, and, incidentally, reported the result more honestly. You chose a way of putting it that avoided the need to admit that only 38% of the electorate (and I too could just as easily have said the more vague "voting public" there too...) are taking us out of the EU.


10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM (#4082778)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Poor old covid going to get the blame for post brexit hardships...


10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM (#4082779)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

And that doesn't take into account the 20+% of under 18s who will be most seriously impacted and had no say whatsoever.


10 Dec 20 - 02:11 PM (#4082782)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Nice of the Independent to remind us of this:

Now seems as good a time as any to crack out this report from June 2019 when the then Tory leadership frontrunner, one Boris Johnson, claimed the odds of a no-deal Brexit were “a million-to-one against”.

At the time, he said:

It is absolutely vital that we prepare for a no-deal Brexit if we are going to get a deal. But I don’t think that is where we are going to end up – I think it is a million-to-one against – but it is vital that we prepare.



One in a million, eh?   Wonder how we got here, then.


10 Dec 20 - 02:17 PM (#4082784)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Are you suggesting that we lower the voting age then Dave?

Unfortunately it is the younger generation who will be paying the cost incurred due to covid. We will have to wait and see what costs/changes they will have to deal with due to Brexit.


10 Dec 20 - 02:18 PM (#4082785)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Yeah.. and how many of the slender majority of brexiteers
will have snuffed it by the time the divorce is finalised...???

Hands up who's still alive and wanting to leave...


10 Dec 20 - 02:42 PM (#4082788)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Exactly pfr. I always ask those who are 63 and over"how did you vote in 1975? See what it has led to?"


10 Dec 20 - 02:51 PM (#4082791)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Not at all Rain Dog. But someone should have looked after the best interests of our children and grandchildren. Plunging into the unknown is not in their best interests and those who voted to do so were quite simply selfish.


10 Dec 20 - 03:00 PM (#4082793)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Do you honestly believe that Dave? Every single person who voted for Brexit was selfish?


10 Dec 20 - 03:05 PM (#4082794)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

We're all selfish.. it's a necessity for survival..

Just that some folks are massively far more selfish than others...


10 Dec 20 - 03:10 PM (#4082795)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Yes pfr and it is always the 'others' who are more selfish than 'us'


10 Dec 20 - 03:52 PM (#4082798)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. not necessarily..

There may be objective psychological measurements of levels of selfishness,
but even if not;
most of us have keen judgment of character
earned from decades of experience
coping with extremely selfish bastards...


10 Dec 20 - 04:12 PM (#4082801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I dont believe they all were Rain Dog. I do believe that enough people were selfish enough to tip the balance though. The trouble is that their self interests were fuelled by the lies told about the influx of "foreigners ruining our country".


10 Dec 20 - 06:32 PM (#4082822)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I thought I'd posted this already. People voted brexit because they were ignorant, deluded and very easily taken in. If you could have said in 2016 that you wouldn't get health care any more on your trip to Benidorm/Palma/Ibiza, that you will have to queue for hours at passport control, that your food is going to cost more in 2021, that your pound will scarcely buy a Euro even if the EU lets us go there at all, even if your cheap holiday company hasn't collapsed...that our economy will shrink so much that you can forget pay rises to cover these extra costs...we wouldn't even be sniffing brexit at all, would we? But you believed a pack of lies... in a few months' time I could be indulging in schadefreude - except that I'll be in the same shite that you've dropped yourself in...


10 Dec 20 - 06:33 PM (#4082823)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

SchadeNfreude


10 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM (#4082826)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

If who could have said? I have said before that there was no debate before the vote
No one had details of what terms we would be leaving on. They didn't know then and they still don't know now.


10 Dec 20 - 07:11 PM (#4082827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

This made me laugh when I read it in our local paper today.

From our MP

"Our area is no stranger to traffic congestion from time to time. The operational plans will continue to adapt over the coming weeks and months, as they have in the past, so that the right balance between the needs of the port and residents can be struck.

I am committed to the economic success of our area. The continuing success of the port will create further jobs, new businesses and investment.

Recently negotiated new trade deals with countries such as Egypt and Morocco have opened new trade routes that could see goods go straight to and out of Dover and bypass Europe altogether."


10 Dec 20 - 07:31 PM (#4082828)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

The only people guaranteed to benefit from brexit
are [mainly] foreigners with vested interests in destabilizing Britain and the rest of Europe...

Farage knows that all too well..

He'll be amply rewarded for his treachery..

[though, perhaps not quite as much as he'd hoped for if trump had won a second term...]


10 Dec 20 - 08:05 PM (#4082835)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"If who could have said?" I was speaking hypothetically, mate...


10 Dec 20 - 11:28 PM (#4082853)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Loser remoaners will believe any lefty fake news bullshite lies..

Billionaire Brexiteer Moves Car Production To EU


What he is doing is so clearly for the benefit of Britain,
but it's far too complicated for tiny remoaner brains to understand.
So just shut, up and put up with a little short term risk.
Boris is in control and will deliver the best deal for Britain...!!!


11 Dec 20 - 01:56 AM (#4082854)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

It makes me sick that the EU are putting the interests of scum like Johnson, fsgarse and mogg before that of 68 million people by failing to guarantee that we retain 100% of the rights and benefits of EU membership. Of course Barnier isn't going to risk losing his massive payouts from billionaire oligarchs to do everything he can to undermine European cohesion, is he.


11 Dec 20 - 02:31 AM (#4082858)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i have heard somwe bullshit in my time ,i find it hilarious that boris is talking about australian type rules for trade he makes it sound like a sporting game , well its feckin not and furthermore australia have been trying to improve their "australian rules" trading terms for the last couple of years. boris reminds me of an overweight bertie wooster


11 Dec 20 - 02:54 AM (#4082862)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Recently negotiated new trade deals with countries such as Egypt and Morocco have opened new trade routes that could see goods go straight to and out of Dover and bypass Europe altogether." quote
hilarious are they going to be bringing in cannabis from morrocco


11 Dec 20 - 05:05 AM (#4082875)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve:
I know that you have problems comprehending honest English, but:
As I said Nigel, I am fully capable of processing your meaning. But the way you put it was typical Tory spin. It's perfectly possible to interpret "voting public" as "electorate," and you know it. You could have said "of those who voted," but then, of course, you'd have been forced to give us that more honest but rather thin-looking statistic (38%, right?).
If I had said "Of those who voted" and I would still have said 52%.
It is your attempt to spin the figures which is disingenuous.


11 Dec 20 - 06:07 AM (#4082884)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Well, this is nice:

The former Australian prime minister Malcolm Turnbull says his country’s trade deal with the EU is ‘not one Britain would want, frankly.


Fairly obviously, given they have been trying to negotiate a closer agreement for years. But I imagine No-Dealers will just close their ears.


11 Dec 20 - 06:13 AM (#4082886)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Ah yes, and by doing so you would inevitably have prompted the rest of us here to remind you that your "52%" = the far more honest 38% when the whole story is told. You Tory brexiteer-spinners will go to any length to avoid saying that 62% of the electorate/ "voting public" did NOT vote to leave the EU. And if we mention that embarrassing statistic, all you can do is bleat that it was the democratic will of the people (or something like), sidestepping the fact that the referendum was the single most undemocratic thing that has happened in this country for many a decade, superseded only now by the same blond buffoon who can't even count his own children telling us that we can't, under pain of legal sanction, go to our mums' houses for a cup of tea or sit with them in their care homes...

Incidentally, had I jumped in first with "voting public" (to mean "electorate"), I'd have been beyond reproach. "More than half of those who voted" = honest. "More than half of the voting public" = bare-faced Tory brexiteer spin...

I don't suppose "more than half of the having-voted public" would be elegant enough for you. And I won't even mention the quasi-populist inclusion of "the public" in all this brexiteer-speak...


11 Dec 20 - 07:51 AM (#4082895)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

No need fannying about with boring stats and numbers.. it's the will of the british people, remember...

= all of us..

That's far easier for tunnel-visioned brexiteers to push ahead on...


11 Dec 20 - 09:51 AM (#4082916)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Unwilling to admit that you got it wrong again Steve? Never mind.

Ah yes, and by doing so you would inevitably have prompted the rest of us here to remind you that your "52%" = the far more honest 38% when the whole story is told. You Tory brexiteer-spinners will go to any length to avoid saying that 62% of the electorate/ "voting public" did NOT vote to leave the EU.
I'm quite happy to accept that "62% of the electorate did Not vote to leave the EU"
Of course, the converse is that 65% of the electorate did NOT vote to remain part of the EU!


11 Dec 20 - 09:56 AM (#4082918)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Johnson is now saying a No-Deal is very very likely.

It is mildly amusing that in The Avengers films one of the characters examine 14,000,065 paths only one of which let to success, whereas Johnson thought there were a million paths only one of which led to failure as he defined it (ie not getting a deal).

Naturally, Johnson found the one he defined as failure.

Somehow, I don't think The Avengers will be be inviting him to join the team.


11 Dec 20 - 11:54 AM (#4082939)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

His secret identity is boris,
but as an inept super hero, he valiantly fights truth and justice as "Cock-up Man"...


11 Dec 20 - 12:23 PM (#4082943)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Out of those who did not vote:

(1) People are more likely to take the trouble to vote on a populist outcome than to vote for the status quo. Many people mistakenly assumed that remain would win (even faridge made that assumption when the polls closed) and felt that that did not need to come out on what was foul weather.

(2) Of those who were disenfranchised, the majority (EU nationals living in UK and people who are now under 24) fell within the demographic that overwhelmingly voted remain.

(3) The leave campaign failed to PROMISE ending the right of UK nationals to live/work/study/retire in UK. Faridge lied when he suggested that UK could follow the Norway (EEA/EFTA) model when he knew that the tory party had no intention whatsoever of doing so.

(4) The remain campaign was conducted appallingly by the party leaderships. Labour failed to effectively campaign on a national level, but where Labour campaigned effectively locally, this resulted in 71% vote (in the constituency where I live) to remain. Because Labour were quiet on a national level many associated remain with Cameron and Osbourne who in industrial areas were blamed for austerity.   

(5) The fact based campaign which focussed on the (now proven) impact of leaving was dismissed as project fear, but not a single promise for the leave campaign has come to fruition. Where are all the Turkish people we have been promised????

(6) Substantial leave campaigning focus upon pandering to racists who saw the referendum as a vote for legitimacy of their vile views. eg fariges 'Breaking Point' billboard.


11 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM (#4082948)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Boris's last minute deadline deal negotiations..

.. and we all thought pantomimes had been cancelled this xmas...


The EU top negotiators thought they were meeting Boris to negotiate a deal..

Boris thought he'd been invited on a hot overnight dinner date with a saucy foreign totty...

We're the only ones who'll end up f@cked...


11 Dec 20 - 01:04 PM (#4082949)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Apparently the latest wheeze is to allocate 4 naval ships to protect the fishing waters around the UK in the event of a no-deal.

A quick Google search suggests there are 7,300 EU fishing vessels, so I suspect 4 will have a hard time controlling that lot. Then how will they control them? A seizure or sinking will be a massive escalation, and I don't think the EU would just sit quietly by. Much less, and in the context of 7300 is is just a minor irritation. If the EU were to impose any kind of sanction in retaliation for a stronger action, we should remember - since it seems to be so easily forgotten - that the Republic of Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland is not, so that would affect the GFA border. And what would Biden think of that?

Silly grandstanding. I hope there are still some wiser heads around to council against such escalation.


11 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM (#4082962)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

The nonsense continues.

DMcG are you seriously suggesting that the EU should fish in UK waters illegally in the event of a no deal Brexit?


11 Dec 20 - 02:20 PM (#4082967)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I am saying threatening sending warships for a trade dispute is not very smart.


11 Dec 20 - 02:22 PM (#4082969)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

... especially as your opening gambit.


11 Dec 20 - 02:25 PM (#4082971)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Most of us landlubbers with any sense don't care about fishing disputes..

There are far more important concerns in life to be coping with..


I'd also expect most fish don't give a shit which nation catches them to near extinction...


11 Dec 20 - 05:09 PM (#4082999)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Add together the fishing sector and the agricultural sector and they add up to less than 1% of our GDP. The denizens of both sectors cheerfully voted overwhelmingly for brexit. Both sectors have been environmental disasters. Vandalistic wouldn't be too strong a word. My sympathies lie solidly elsewhere.


11 Dec 20 - 05:11 PM (#4083000)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Rain Dog. Just because little s***s like Johnson whine that something is illegal, doesn't make it illegal. And if Johnson wants to waste money on Naval patrol, then it must be 100% paid for through a poll tax levied on fishing communities.


11 Dec 20 - 05:23 PM (#4083001)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I live in a town that used to boast, 50 years ago, a fishing fleet.

It Then employed a very small minority of the people.

Today that fishing fleet has, to all intents and purposes, gone.

Nationally the fishing industry creates 1 tenth of 1 percent of the Gross National Product.

Now I understand for that 1 tenth of 1 percent of the people the industry is VERY important,

However in the great schemes of things, to most people, it barely registers apart from the jingoism that surrounds it.


11 Dec 20 - 06:21 PM (#4083012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Meanwhile back in the real world.

Countries the world over have their territorial waters. That is nothing new. It is only a small part in the scheme of things but trade agreements are built on small things.

We might well be heading for a no deal exit but no doubt some deals will be made at a later date,at least I hope so.


11 Dec 20 - 06:53 PM (#4083019)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I hope so too. But can you see the trade deals being as good as the ones we had? And it's not just good trade deals we are swapping for pie in the sky "sovereignty" . We are giving up years of cultural, scientific and policing cooperation. For what? To build closer ties with a now deposed madman on the other side of the Atlantic?


11 Dec 20 - 07:32 PM (#4083025)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Humouring the insane is a dangerous game.
The rules of organized chaos are full of sound and fury signifying
a falsely placed obediance.
As long as you choose law in the short run, remember this,
crazy laws have a life time too and eventually die. Some from old age and some by murder.


11 Dec 20 - 08:28 PM (#4083028)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

When we are restricted to just one thread, it's bloody annoying to have a yank who spouts utter shite getting his oar in. Frankly, Donuel, and as ever, you have nothing useful to say. So you know what I might suggest you do. It involves your bottom...


12 Dec 20 - 04:58 AM (#4083046)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I came across this when I was looking up something entirely unconnected on wiki:

Sam Mendes is an opponent of Brexit. In 2017, he stated: "I’m afraid that the winds that were blowing before the First World War are blowing again. There was this generation of men fighting then for a free and unified Europe, which we would do well to remember."

Yep.


12 Dec 20 - 05:13 AM (#4083049)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Sam Mendes is an opponent of Brexit. In 2017, he stated: "I’m afraid that the winds that were blowing before the First World War are blowing again. There was this generation of men fighting then for a free and unified Europe, which we would do well to remember."

Maybe I've misread history. I thought Britain (and allies) were fighting for a 'free' Europe, and Germany were fighting for a 'unified' Europe.
Doubtless an oversimplification, but so was Mendes' comment.


12 Dec 20 - 05:16 AM (#4083051)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Countries the world over have their territorial waters. That is nothing new.

Certainly they do. And there are few disputes because most of them have been in place for many decades or even centuries. The two sides have reached an accommodation that - more or less - works.

Before we joined the the EU (and its predecessor) we had such an accommodation with France and the other countries that fished in the Channel and North Sea. It was not just a case of "its the UK's and no-one else gets a look in."


12 Dec 20 - 05:19 AM (#4083052)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

What you misread, or misinterpreted, was the sentiment in Mendes' comment. There is no conflict therein.


12 Dec 20 - 05:22 AM (#4083054)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

There is no conflict therein.
So who was fighting for a "free and unified Europe"?


12 Dec 20 - 05:25 AM (#4083055)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

An interesting fact apropos of fishing: over half of our fishing quota is now in the hands of the Netherlands, Spain and Iceland, sold off to them by our fishing industry...


12 Dec 20 - 05:42 AM (#4083059)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

So, what will happen when one of the four warships confronts a Dutch, Spanish or Icelandic fishing boat?


12 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM (#4083060)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Your difficulty, Nigel, is that you think "unified" means "one big country." It doesn't. Since well before the referendum I've been arguing for a unified Europe, but one in which I desperately want to have 28 sovereign nations all keeping their distinctive national attributes, operating their own laws and their own form of democracy but with the same ground rules of human rights and the rule of law. 28 nations cooperating for the greater good of all, and among which war is next to impossible. Unified that way, and I'm certain that that is the sentiment in Sir Sam's remark. Naturally, as you are in vehement opposition to his point of view, you will do what Nigel does, try to pick holes. Nice try but no cigar. Not even a fag end, I'd say.


12 Dec 20 - 05:45 AM (#4083061)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Play safe and just torpedo the Russian ones instead, Jos. :-)


12 Dec 20 - 05:54 AM (#4083064)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The Russian ones are not trawling for fish though :-)

Someone else can grab 500


12 Dec 20 - 06:09 AM (#4083069)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

'll grab the 500, but it is very selfish of me because I don't have any emotional attachment to round numbers - it is just another number in the integer set...

Reminds me of daughter-of-mine at the millennium sounding off that is was just a completely arbitrary boundary of no inherent significance whatsoever.


12 Dec 20 - 06:13 AM (#4083072)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It was so arbitrary that there was no general agreement as to when it actually was!


12 Dec 20 - 07:25 AM (#4083086)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

DMcG's daughter sounds smarter than some of you codgers, at least in polynomial time. Having an answer is not intelligence as much as having the wisdom to know which questions to ask. IQ is second to EQ or QQ in my book. Be that as it may, Steve, eat some Bran. You seem too full of yourself, as usual. :^}

I have steadfast hope that your UK politics are more sensible than American politics. As criminal conspiracies go I think America is #1.


12 Dec 20 - 07:28 AM (#4083087)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Did Johnson's Poor Behaviour Cost Brexit Breakthrough?


12 Dec 20 - 11:08 AM (#4083100)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Almost certainly, the man is an embarrassment.


12 Dec 20 - 11:12 AM (#4083103)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I'm surprised at you Bonzo, I am sure I am not alone in thinking that you voted for his party and thus allowed him to become PM.


12 Dec 20 - 11:29 AM (#4083106)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Give bonz some credit..
he might be a tory, but he's always slagged off dickhead boris...


12 Dec 20 - 11:54 AM (#4083110)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

That doesn’t absolve him, it damns him even further. Who in their right mind would vote for a dickhead?


12 Dec 20 - 12:08 PM (#4083116)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

BWM - errmmm.. we might have our own dilemma with that,
if starmer is still Labour leader by the next elections...


12 Dec 20 - 12:48 PM (#4083129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Johnson or Starmer....hmmmmm, that’s a difficult one, innit? Not.


12 Dec 20 - 12:50 PM (#4083130)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Yeah.. but it's a bit like asking which colour of shit
do you want topping your ice cream cornet...???


12 Dec 20 - 12:52 PM (#4083132)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

But knowing our luck, Margaret Hodge may even have seized leadership by then...


12 Dec 20 - 01:13 PM (#4083137)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Just as long as the previous leader doesn’t get back in - y’know, the bloke who led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory. I’m still hoping to live long enough to see a Labour government once more - I’m grown-up enough to realise it may not happen with Starmer in charge, but there’ll be SFA chance if the Party’s lumbered with Corbyn again.

Although, in contradiction of my criticism of Bonzo’s voting choice, I did vote Labour at the GE, even though I had absolutely no faith in the Leader. It’s called ‘Party-Loyalty’ or, put another way, ‘Putting Party Before Personality’.


12 Dec 20 - 01:27 PM (#4083138)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Just as long as the previous leader doesn’t get back in - y’know, the bloke who led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory, how about james callaghan
quote living memory, what utter bolocks.. how about 1983? backwoodsman youare a master of bullshit1979 general election – 5.3% swing from Labour to Conservative
2010 general election – 5.1% swing from Labour to Conservativ
Boris Johnson delivered the biggest electoral win to the Conservatives since Margaret Thatcher in 1987,


12 Dec 20 - 01:36 PM (#4083139)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I wasn't a Corbynite..

I've never been keen on 'cult of personality'..

I recognized his integrity and principles,
but thought a younger leader with less negative baggage
would have been a better long term choice..

I could never join the Labour party,
but will continue defending and voting for them..
as futile as that may be...???


12 Dec 20 - 01:58 PM (#4083141)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

“I recognized his integrity and principles,
but thought a younger leader with less negative baggage
would have been a better long term choice..

I could never join the Labour party,
but will continue defending and voting for them..
as futile as that may be...???”


Ha, sorry pfr, it’s Saturday night, FA on Telly, idling my time away on my iPad, bored shitless, I allowed myself the luxury of a bit of chain-yanking! Mea Culpa!

Those are my thoughts exactly. Although, like you, I’m not sure that Starmer’s the right man for the job, but I’m sure that he’s far more acceptable to the voters.


12 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM (#4083143)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

the person who is dividing the labour party now is Starmer, politically naive and incompetent,the easy way to have got rid of corbyn was make him a peer.Starmer is an idiot


12 Dec 20 - 02:21 PM (#4083144)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I still can't help suspecting an organised influx of tories
paid the minimal fee to vote Corbyn in as Labour leader...???


12 Dec 20 - 06:12 PM (#4083169)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And I can’t help thinking you could be right, pfr.


13 Dec 20 - 02:49 AM (#4083198)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I joined the labour party again when Corbyn became leader as did many other left wing minded people, i personally know many folk enthusiasts and performers who did so, none of us are tories,
i have subsequently left the labour party because of starmers political idiocy, PFR you talk uninformed twaddle


13 Dec 20 - 03:27 AM (#4083201)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM

...Please can we try and be civil when we disagree about politics




Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 02:49 AM

...PFR you talk uninformed twaddle


What's this, Dick? Do as I say, not as I do? Or does it just depend who is being uncivil?


13 Dec 20 - 04:25 AM (#4083202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

no it is uniformed twaddler , that is not a personal attack it is a fact ,he has no stats to back his statement up


13 Dec 20 - 04:59 AM (#4083203)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I have proven your hypocrisy, Dick. No need for me to go any further as others can now see what you are doing.


13 Dec 20 - 05:14 AM (#4083204)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I did NOT vote for johnson, I voted for our excellent MP Chris Philp. The other 2 labour MPs for Croydon Central and North are useless.


13 Dec 20 - 05:33 AM (#4083205)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it.


13 Dec 20 - 05:35 AM (#4083206)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

hypocrisy? Cameron was responsible for brexit, without a referndum there would have been no vote
When i refer to PFR STATEMENT I am being polite, if i wanted to be rude i would call him a flamer or a troll, but i am being polite.
so i wont call him that, if i had been the silver tongued late departed MGM
i would have called him a vacuous booby, but i try to be a good boy and be polite, like teachers pet, so i restrain myself and say it is uniformed twaddle


13 Dec 20 - 05:40 AM (#4083207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

you see a personal attack or being rude relates to insulting the person not confirming that what they said was uninformed, and therfore twaddle : silly idle talk : drivel. b : something insignificant or worthless according to the dictionary


13 Dec 20 - 06:06 AM (#4083210)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

I would have thought that saying someone is talking uninformed twaddle counted as 'genteel conversation' in the middle a political thread.

Why not take PFR's idea and run with it. Even with the drop in membership since Starmer took over from Corbyn, the Labour party has more members than the Conservatives, SNP and Lib Dems combined. It could afford to send a few over to swamp the Tories and get a Prime Minister more acceptable to them, albeit* the wrong political colour.


DC

*that bit was for Steve ;-)


13 Dec 20 - 06:08 AM (#4083212)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

here is some evidence that conservative remainers are wait for it, quote
Observer Opinium politics polls
Labour
Keir Starmer winning Tory Leave voters for Labour – poll

As the party leader decides whether to back any Brexit deal, a survey of 7,000 electors shows he has closed the gap with the Conservatives since the election last year
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month.
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/UK parliament/AFP/Getty Images
Michael Savage
Sat 12 Dec 2020 12.53 GMT

Last modified on Sat 12 Dec 2020 22.10 GMT

372

More Leave voters than Remainers have swung from the Tories to Labour since the last election, according to a major polling project that suggests Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has made some early progress in bridging the Brexit divide.

A large 7,000-strong poll, designed to examine the political changes that have taken place since Labour’s disastrous result, found that the party was showing signs of winning over some of those who backed the Tories last year.

The Tories won support from 70% of those who voted Leave and 20% of Remain voters at the 2019 election. Labour won 16% of Leave voters and 49% of Remain voters. The latest polling found that the Tories now have the support of 63% of those who voted Leave and 21% of Remain voters. Labour is backed by 20% of Leave voters and 53% of Remain voters.

It represents a swing to Labour from the Tories among Leave voters of 5.5 points. The swing among Remainers was just 1.5 points. The pollsters said that a significant part of the swing was down to Leave voters turning against the Tories, now saying they did not now know who they would vote for. Some 18% of Conservative Leave voters now say they do not know how they will vote.

Meanwhile, the net movement of Conservative voters to Labour since the election is roughly the same as the net movement of Green and Lib Dem voters to Labour – about 500,000 voters in each group. It challenges suggestions that Starmer has largely boosted Labour’s vote share by winning Lib Dem and Green voters.

The study, launched as part of a new Opinium ebook on the last election, comes with Labour poised to back any Brexit deal that is agreed with the EU. The move is causing unease at all levels of the party. Starmer has suggested he will order his MPs to back a deal in the “national interest”, making clear it is preferable to a no-deal outcome.

Chris Curtis, the senior research manager at Opinium, said: “This data will be particularly important for Labour to consider when deciding how to vote on a potential Brexit deal. The data shows that there are lots of Leave voters who are going off the Conservative party, but haven’t yet been won over by Labour. The party will want to avoid alienating them with the decision it makes.”

Several figures in the shadow cabinet, the unions and prominent backbenchers want the party to abstain in a Brexit deal vote, concerned that backing a deal will prevent Labour from criticising it in the future – while abstaining will not stop its passage.

However, Starmer’s team has been holding meetings with party figures for weeks in an attempt to prepare the ground for voting in favour of a deal. There is also a feeling among Starmer’s team that Remain voters are not as focused on Brexit as they once were, following the last election.

The Opinium study found that Starmer is doing better among Leave voters than the Labour party as a whole, suggesting that he may have the ability to reach some more Tory voters who are increasingly becoming dissatisfied with the party, but have yet to make the jump to Labour. Starmer’s approval rating among Leave voters was -5, with 27% approving of him and 32% disapproving.

A huge lead for the Tories among older voters at the last election is also showing evidence of closing. The Conservatives had a 38-point lead among those aged 65 and over. It remains high, but has closed to 26 points.

Labour has a marginal lead among working-class voters, following suggestions it was behind among that group at the election. It is now backed by 40% of so-called “C2DE” voters, compared with 38% for the Tories. Meanwhile, the Tories lead among the more affluent voters. It leads 42% to 38% among “ABC1” voters. The gender gap that emerged at the last election persists. The Tories lead 43% to 35% among men, while Labour leads 41% to 38% among women.

Curtis said: “Labour’s vote share has increased under the leadership of Keir Starmer, with the party now just two points behind the Conservatives. But what is more interesting are the trends underlying the swing back to the party. Labour is seeing greater swings towards them among older voters and Leave voters, the key groups they have struggled with in recent years. This indicates that some of the major divides that have haunted our politics for the past few years might be starting to fade.

“A key element seems to be the handling of the pandemic, with many Leave voters who backed the Tories last year thinking the government has done a bad job. The party is therefore only holding on to 70% of the Leave voters who backed them, as opposed to 78% of their Remain voters.”

Opinium polled about 7,000 people online between 27 November and 8 December."
some statistical evidence thatConservative remasiners are now joing keir starmer, why is it becuase he is really a tory?
.


13 Dec 20 - 06:10 AM (#4083213)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Have you nothing better to do Sandman???????????????????


13 Dec 20 - 06:12 AM (#4083214)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It did not go unnoticed, Doug, though I was initially more interested in the posts prior to yours. Things like that happen to me on a daily basis...However, at this moment in time I have to plan my trip to Morrison's as I have cooking to do, going forward. If you will...


13 Dec 20 - 06:14 AM (#4083215)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Billy Connelly is Infinitely more entertaining!!!


13 Dec 20 - 08:04 AM (#4083222)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Whatevet, Dick. Same reply to your PM.


13 Dec 20 - 08:16 AM (#4083225)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Bonzo, Billy Connolly, note spelling. plus was, the poor guy has dementure.


13 Dec 20 - 09:15 AM (#4083230)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Dementure, Dick? Are you saying that he has crazy false teeth? ;-)


13 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM (#4083232)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Spelling is irrelevant, he's bloody funny!!!


13 Dec 20 - 09:21 AM (#4083233)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Bonzo, Billy Connolly, note spelling. plus was, the poor guy has dementure.
If you're going to correct spelling, Connolly has dementia (Parkinson's disease)


13 Dec 20 - 09:47 AM (#4083235)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

He's just being his usual dreadful finger in the ear self!!!


13 Dec 20 - 09:58 AM (#4083237)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I can't be arsed reading Dick's petty grudge nonsenses yet..

maybe later...

However in the meantime consider this..

tory party has fewer members, but it has international backers with far more financial clout..

Labour membership vote fee was how much per person,
and how carefully vetted was each new voter...???

Corbyn's proposal for candidate, was a surprise gift for the left..

and an even bigger spoiler opportunity for the well funded tory right...


13 Dec 20 - 10:20 AM (#4083241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

punk folk rocker, a closed mind .
well if you read them you would see that there are stats to back up the fact conservative voters are switching to keir starmer, you have a closed mind.
bad news for bonzoObserver Opinium politics polls
Labour
Keir Starmer winning Tory Leave voters for Labour – poll

As the party leader decides whether to back any Brexit deal, a survey of 7,000 electors shows he has closed the gap with the Conservatives since the election last year
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month.
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/UK parliament/AFP/Getty Images
Michael Savage
Sat 12 Dec 2020 12.53 GMT

Last modified on Sat 12 Dec 2020 22.10 GMT

372

More Leave voters than Remainers have swung from the Tories to Labour since the last election, according to a major polling project that suggests Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has made some early progress in bridging the Brexit divide.

A large 7,000-strong poll, designed to examine the political changes that have taken place since Labour’s disastrous result, found that the party was showing signs of winning over some of those who backed the Tories last year.

The Tories won support from 70% of those who voted Leave and 20% of Remain voters at the 2019 election. Labour won 16% of Leave voters and 49% of Remain voters. The latest polling found that the Tories now have the support of 63% of those who voted Leave and 21% of Remain voters. Labour is backed by 20% of Leave voters and 53% of Remain voters.

It represents a swing to Labour from the Tories among Leave voters of 5.5 points. The swing among Remainers was just 1.5 points. The pollsters said that a significant part of the swing was down to Leave voters turning against the Tories, now saying they did not now know who they would vote for. Some 18% of Conservative Leave voters now say they do not know how they will vote.

Meanwhile, the net movement of Conservative voters to Labour since the election is roughly the same as the net movement of Green and Lib Dem voters to Labour – about 500,000 voters in each group. It challenges suggestions that Starmer has largely boosted Labour’s vote share by winning Lib Dem and Green voters.

The study, launched as part of a new Opinium ebook on the last election, comes with Labour poised to back any Brexit deal that is agreed with the EU. The move is causing unease at all levels of the party. Starmer has suggested he will order his MPs to back a deal in the “national interest”, making clear it is preferable to a no-deal outcome.

Chris Curtis, the senior research manager at Opinium, said: “This data will be particularly important for Labour to consider when deciding how to vote on a potential Brexit deal. The data shows that there are lots of Leave voters who are going off the Conservative party, but haven’t yet been won over by Labour. The party will want to avoid alienating them with the decision it makes.”

Several figures in the shadow cabinet, the unions and prominent backbenchers want the party to abstain in a Brexit deal vote, concerned that backing a deal will prevent Labour from criticising it in the future – while abstaining will not stop its passage.

However, Starmer’s team has been holding meetings with party figures for weeks in an attempt to prepare the ground for voting in favour of a deal. There is also a feeling among Starmer’s team that Remain voters are not as focused on Brexit as they once were, following the last election.

The Opinium study found that Starmer is doing better among Leave voters than the Labour party as a whole, suggesting that he may have the ability to reach some more Tory voters who are increasingly becoming dissatisfied with the party, but have yet to make the jump to Labour. Starmer’s approval rating among Leave voters was -5, with 27% approving of him and 32% disapproving.

A huge lead for the Tories among older voters at the last election is also showing evidence of closing. The Conservatives had a 38-point lead among those aged 65 and over. It remains high, but has closed to 26 points.

Labour has a marginal lead among working-class voters, following suggestions it was behind among that group at the election. It is now backed by 40% of so-called “C2DE” voters, compared with 38% for the Tories. Meanwhile, the Tories lead among the more affluent voters. It leads 42% to 38% among “ABC1” voters. The gender gap that emerged at the last election persists. The Tories lead 43% to 35% among men, while Labour leads 41% to 38% among women.

Curtis said: “Labour’s vote share has increased under the leadership of Keir Starmer, with the party now just two points behind the Conservatives. But what is more interesting are the trends underlying the swing back to the party. Labour is seeing greater swings towards them among older voters and Leave voters, the key groups they have struggled with in recent years. This indicates that some of the major divides that have haunted our politics for the past few years might be starting to fade.

“A key element seems to be the handling of the pandemic, with many Leave voters who backed the Tories last year thinking the government has done a bad job. The party is therefore only holding on to 70% of the Leave voters who backed them, as opposed to 78% of their Remain voters.”

Opinium polled about 7,000 people online between 27 November and 8 December."
some statistical evidence that Conservative remasiners are now joing keir starmer, why is it becuase he is really a tory?
.


13 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM (#4083243)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

They will have been the same thousands that travelled all over the country singing Corbyns name.were they conservative infiltrators? what ridiculous twaddle from punk folk rocker


13 Dec 20 - 10:31 AM (#4083244)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

“so good, he posted it twice...” :-)

Party members don’t elect their party to government. Voters in General Elections do that.


13 Dec 20 - 10:39 AM (#4083245)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Bonzo take note and answer Bckwoodsmans, you elected boris johnson
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:33 AM

Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it.


13 Dec 20 - 10:42 AM (#4083246)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

yes posted twice.
so that when Punk, opens his eyes he will see the irony of his ridiculous assertion that conservative infiltrators joined the labour party to elect corbyn.
what utter twaddle and unsubstantiated twaddle to boot


13 Dec 20 - 10:49 AM (#4083248)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

it would appear that the conservatives won the last election because there was an electoral pact between farage and the conservatives, furthermore, backwoodsman
you made a statement that you cannot substantiate that corbyn lost the election by the biggest majority in living memory, more unsubstantiated twaddle, both you and punk talk twaddle, check your facts


13 Dec 20 - 11:06 AM (#4083250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"If you're going to correct spelling, Connolly has dementia (Parkinson's disease)"

Dementia is not Parkinson's disease, actually. Billy has the latter but I can find no reference to his having dementia.


13 Dec 20 - 11:20 AM (#4083251)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Take more water with it, Dick, or better still lay off it altogether - it’s making you very nasty.


13 Dec 20 - 11:21 AM (#4083253)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick's off on one of his obsessive episodes today..

No amount of rational persuasion will deter him from
willfully misconstruing my actual intended meaning..

His blinkers are yet again set to narrowest tunnel vision...

This was bound to happen when he carries grudges over from earlier in the week...

I should have joined the Labour party as an active member decades ago,
but he is a prime example of what I'd get too frustrated and annoyed dealing with..

I have low patience threshold for needy self indulgent petty egos..

My old mates in the local party are far more tolerant of the dysfunctional 'care in the community'
element of their fellow membership...


13 Dec 20 - 11:27 AM (#4083254)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - Anyone who cares about what you are best at - music,
would wish you'd spend more of your spare time and energy
updating your youtube channel...


13 Dec 20 - 11:33 AM (#4083255)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”Dementia is not Parkinson's disease, actually. Billy has the latter but I can find no reference to his having dementia.”

I thought that’s the condition he has too, Steve. We saw Billy at Sheffield City Hall a few years ago, just before his illness was made public, he was hilarious as usual, but we both commented that he seemed to ‘have summat up’, there were moments when he was clearly having difficulty recalling ‘the next bit’ in his routine. We commented that we thought it might be the last time we see him touring, and so it proved to be.

His swearing might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it doesn’t bother us - we hear far worse in our local market place and shopping mall - but his observations of human behaviour, and his ability to find the humour in human frailty, are brilliant AFAWAC. Others’ may have a different view, and that’s OK.


13 Dec 20 - 11:47 AM (#4083258)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

You can have both, and Parkinson's in its latter stages can lead to dementia. But they are distinctive conditions.


13 Dec 20 - 12:10 PM (#4083260)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

My mum has dementia, but not even all dementias are the same.
My mum's is a specific type..
..but I can't remember what it's called..

It's all very complex to diagnose..

Here amongst mudcat's aging membership,
we have to stay aware and sympathetic.;
no matter how odd or annoying other mudcatters may become..

A healthy sense of humour is paramount...


13 Dec 20 - 12:21 PM (#4083262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it. "

What???????????????????????? I voted Conservative and am very very proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


13 Dec 20 - 12:45 PM (#4083265)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

So you voted for the Party and, by virtue of voting for the Party of which he’s leader, you voted for Johnson. Thus my original point, and also the one you quote above, still stand.

BTW, appending multiple exclamation marks to a statement is not only very bad from the point of view of the use of punctuation, but it adds no weight whatever to the point you’re attempting to make.


13 Dec 20 - 01:25 PM (#4083267)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

where are your stats backwoodsman and punk to back up your twaddle.


13 Dec 20 - 01:29 PM (#4083268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick...


13 Dec 20 - 01:30 PM (#4083269)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Quite so, pfr...


13 Dec 20 - 01:36 PM (#4083270)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - where is your imagination to comprehend hypothetical ideas

beyond your restricted over-literal limits of understanding...???


13 Dec 20 - 01:48 PM (#4083271)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Pfr, let him bleat and flap around. This is a discussion forum, not a court. It’s perfectly legitimate to state an opinion, and there is no compunction on anyone to ‘prove’ their opinion. They are what they are - opinions - nothing else.

The sensible majority understand that.


13 Dec 20 - 01:59 PM (#4083274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

BWM - absolutely, he constantly makes himself look a right pompous buffoon,

every time he demands imperiously that other mudcatters must prove things to him...


13 Dec 20 - 02:07 PM (#4083275)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

However, just to set the record straight...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50765773?app=news.election.2019.story.50765773.page

From the above link...

”Labour, which has lost seats across the North, Midlands and Wales in places which backed Brexit in 2016, is facing its worst defeat since 1935.

I wasn’t born in 1935 so ‘in living memory’ works for me.


13 Dec 20 - 03:07 PM (#4083288)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I'm losing track of this...

I'm still a member of the union I joined almost 50 years ago. In the earlier times I got in trouble with the Gen Sec (Fred Jarvis) for trying to organise unofficial strikes. I got two very threatening letters from him in the mid-70s. My best union mate was Blair Peach, but his murder in 1979 knocked the stuffing out of me and I just stayed active but not an activist. He was a member of the SWP in the days when they were a real revolution party, but I didn't hold with that and I didn't join. He was the nicest, kindest and gentlest man you could wish to meet, but he was the very divil in union meetings and he never let go of his socialist principles, living his life as you'd fully expect a true socialist to live. He was also a superb teacher of children with special needs. I've always been far to the left of the union establishment but I'll die a member. I had to bite my lip when it came to my fellow teachers joining more docile and right-wing unions, but I could scarcely tolerate working with people who refused to join a union at all, and they knew it. The union movement allowed Thatcher to demolish what I saw as real trade unionism, and my view has always been that the working class in this country has been treated much the worse in consequence. We've ended up with what weasel Tories call "the flexible labour market": temporary, part-time, seasonal, sack-you-at-will, zero-hours, fake apprenticeships, rock-bottom pay, gangmasters...

I joined Labour when Corbyn was elected. He is of the left, he is unspun and he is a man of principle. After the 2017 election, in which he did incredibly well, he was perceived by the Tory populist right as a threat. So, for the next couple of years, he was unscrupulously targeted big-time, both from within his own party (all those disaffected Blairites and Brownites, not to speak of that disreputable bunch of sour-faced, lying antisemitism-accusers) and without, the Board Of Deputies (who no-one ever voted for) and the scumbags of the tabloids. Why, the actual Tory Party hardly had to do a thing. You guys who keep bleating on that Jeremy was "unelectable" always fail to qualify that by admitting that even the Angel bloody Gabriel would have been "unelectable" in the face of that onslaught. The campaign against him was unscrupulous and concerted, positively conspiratorial, and predicated on lies. I'm staying in the party, though I'm rock-solid certain that Starmer is a born follower, a born caver-in and a born loser. That's just me. Thanks for reading.


13 Dec 20 - 03:22 PM (#4083291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve - no.. thank you.. that was a bloody good read...


13 Dec 20 - 03:29 PM (#4083293)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"BTW, appending multiple exclamation marks to a statement is not only very bad from the point of view of the use of punctuation, but it adds no weight whatever to the point you’re attempting to make."

It is of no consequence to me!!


13 Dec 20 - 03:54 PM (#4083294)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve I ought to clarify..

When I was taking the piss out of the 'care in the community' element of my local Labour party members,

..it's not referring to politics [ie, left or right of the party], but personalities..

Bloody awkward time and energy draining self important people with psychological 'issues'..

Labour, being a compassionate inclusive fraternity, seems to attract a lot of 'em..

Then mix that with cider and waccy baccy.. it's a nightmare putting up with them..

I've never had sufficient patience.

Maybe, it's just worse in the south west towns I grew up in...???


13 Dec 20 - 05:10 PM (#4083297)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well I've seen similar things down yer in Bude, where the local Labour Party is currently tearing itself to bits (and it isn't exactly over-populated...). Once it becomes ashes maybe I'll supply the phoenix, but at the moment I really can't be arsed with it. Folk music seems at times to be the same sort of magnet... But my mum and dad, rest 'em now, were both Labour Party people and even as an early teen I was out there taking numbers for the canvassers at the polling station and having tea and butties at the party HQ (a terraced house in Wolseley Street). My dad and his mate were Labour councillors in our home town. It was unthinkable to not be in a trade union. Labour may not be in a good place but at least I'm in the tent pissing out and not outside pissing in. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to...

Just remembered...Phoenix....That was the name of the special school (as we called 'em then) at Mile End where Blair Peach worked. The kids there all loved Blair to bits, and they came to his funeral, along with 22000 others... we all sang the Internationale...


13 Dec 20 - 05:19 PM (#4083300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

pfr Please stop telling me what to do.
i have spent the last five hours working on a festival completion grant form. i had to this in 2019 and now have to do it all over again.
do you organise anything, probably not, you have no idea of the work that goes in to providing music and gigs for people
well kindly do not tell me what to do, and kindly stop calling me names


13 Dec 20 - 05:32 PM (#4083303)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Ye gods...


13 Dec 20 - 06:03 PM (#4083306)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve - as I was saying...


13 Dec 20 - 06:04 PM (#4083307)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

It's at times like this I can appreciate the logic of limiting these threads.


13 Dec 20 - 08:16 PM (#4083317)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Do that, Dave, and you might not hear the rest of me life story...Bejaysus, this Mozzers five-quid Nero d'Avola ain't half bad... Did I tell you that I've actually been to Avola... and that me mum for ten years ran the best chippy in Radcliffe...and that I bashed the spuds for her (well underage) for seven and a tanner a week...


14 Dec 20 - 01:24 AM (#4083332)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

The BBC can predict what they like before the election ..they were wrong it was not the worst defeat since 1935, check your facts you still have not provided any proof or stats to back up your comment. a bbc prediction before an election is not proof.
punk there is no evidence whatsoever that the labour party was infiltrated by conservatives to elect jeremy corbyn


14 Dec 20 - 03:32 AM (#4083342)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I may be going into yer actual mozzers later this week, Steve. They have cocked up big time on staff discount for retired employees and it seems my discount card can only be used in store currently. If it's not sorted out soon expect to see a news story about mozzers forcing pensioners to risk going in store ;-)


14 Dec 20 - 03:57 AM (#4083344)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Sand - if and when you fall off your high horse,
you'll have been up there so long,
you'll land neck deep in a mound of horse shit...

You are behaving even more erratic and unstable than usual..

I'm laughing my bollocks off that you are still so crankily triggered
by a tongue in cheek suggestion of tory vote rigging to select Corbyn..

Calm down, before you do yourself a mischief..

[btw.. as conspiracy theories go,
there is actually more plausibility thousands of tories paid the affordable fee to vote for jezza..]


14 Dec 20 - 04:17 AM (#4083346)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

This isn’t a court, pfr. Nobody has to ‘prove’ anything here, except in the mind of a lonely trouble-maker and troll. Ignore him and let him continue making a fool of himself - he’ll eventually get tired of it and start working on some other victim.


14 Dec 20 - 06:15 AM (#4083357)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

tongue in cheek, perhaps you should have made that clear, uniformed twaddle and the same from back woodsman.
the tronblemakers are the people who put up provocative statements punk does it all the time then we have you talking garbage about election defeats , check your facts. you call me lonely
you know nothing about me.
I am far from lonely.
throughout the pandemic i have been be making live music with friends.
doing zoom gigs etc
doing outside gigs. regular music with friends
you really talk uninformed twaddle . ever heard the phrase empty vessels make most sound,
I am also lucky to live in ireland where trad music is appreciated every night i can hear two to 3 hours of good music on radio


14 Dec 20 - 06:57 AM (#4083362)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

And this is Brexit & other UK political topics because?

Just continuing the previous hypocrisy as far as I can see.


14 Dec 20 - 08:05 AM (#4083367)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”ever heard the phrase empty vessels make most sound,”

Oh, the delicious irony! Hilarious!


14 Dec 20 - 08:13 AM (#4083368)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I suggest a course of Billy Joe Shaver!!!


14 Dec 20 - 08:19 AM (#4083369)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

So the EU now sees a deal as possible. It says the UK has made a key concession:

Barnier said Downing Street now accepted the principle that as either side develops their environmental, social and labour standards over time there should be a way to ensure that trade flows are not distorted by the failure of the other to reciprocate. He described the solution as “unilateral measures”, or tariffs, which would probably be applied after a period of arbitration.


I think that is key to any deal. Boris can claim a success because the UK is not automatically bound to EU changes. Equeally the EU ican claim a success in saying it can impose tariffs. Both sides being able to claim a success is very useful in negotiations.

Now the EU does not like this idea on fishing:


The UK has now suggested that pelagic fish are removed from any deal with Brussels and that shares are instead negotiated through the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Commission, of which Iceland and Norway are members. Pelagic fish refers to species that swim closer to the surface and accounts for approximately 80% of the value of fish caught by EU fleet.


However, even the the EU is unhappy, that hides an important UK concession: the UK would not be the sole arbiter of who can catch what fish. So this "UK waters are for the UK" has grown more subtle.


14 Dec 20 - 11:10 AM (#4083392)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"you should have made that clear"

Dick - no.. you should read other members posts calmly, in good humour,
and when necessary with imagination,
without filtering every word through your own resentments..

Most vital though, you need to show some reasonable self control,
and respect for mudcat community.

You are just only one of a diverse membership of equals.
You may be a good folk artist and festival organiser,
but that does not grant you any special privileges.

How dare you keep on vaingloriously demanding that other mudcatters must account themselves to your higher authority..

You are by no means pretty or famous enough to get away with such persistent outrageous diva behaviour..

It is you who creates a trail of disruptive rancour
in just about every thread you inflict yourself upon...

So ffs lighten up...


15 Dec 20 - 02:07 AM (#4083508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Sandman - I have deleted your PM without opening it . DO NOT PM ME. I have no interest in any of your childish idiocy.


15 Dec 20 - 03:08 AM (#4083515)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzo, I know I'm going to regret asking but what's a course of Billy Joe Shaver?


15 Dec 20 - 03:27 AM (#4083517)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’d be interested to know too, Dave! I know BJS is/was a Country singer, but his relevance here is completely lost on me...


15 Dec 20 - 04:03 AM (#4083519)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Backwoodsman punkfolk rocker
Tha còmhradh y0ur a ’cur mo chuimhne orwells newspeak CÉARD IOMLÁN NA mBALLAÍ


15 Dec 20 - 04:14 AM (#4083522)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Illegitimes non carborundum, chaps.


15 Dec 20 - 04:37 AM (#4083524)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Barking dogs seldom bite.
Defintion of Backwoodsman, According to dictionary ,pleas note not mt opinion
North American
an inhabitant of backwoods, especially one regarded as uncouth or backward.


15 Dec 20 - 05:30 AM (#4083530)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Bonzo, I know I'm going to regret asking but what's a course of Billy Joe Shaver?

A course of Billy Joe Shaver (RIP) songs!!


15 Dec 20 - 06:23 AM (#4083533)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

OK. :-S


15 Dec 20 - 07:26 AM (#4083538)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - ok so you are bi-lingual in complete bollox - so what..

I am going to ignore you in this thread until/unless you get back on topic,
and post relevant sensible contributions to the debate.

We are after all more or less on the same side against the tories.

I trust we can resume fairly good humoured amicable tolerant interaction as mudcat mates,
sooner rather than later..

That's up to you...


15 Dec 20 - 07:48 AM (#4083543)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

so saying Corbyn was voted elected as leader of the labour party by conservatives is reasonable sensible debate? or was it a joke? you cannot have it both ways. if iy was a joke then its ok for you to make childish idiotic jokes, but everyone else has to make sensible debate
to quote yourself
How dare you keep on vaingloriously demanding that other mudcatters must account themselves to your higher authority..
so its ok for you to vaingloroiusly insist that others account for themselves and debate sensibly, but not yourself. you are a booby who talks twaddle


15 Dec 20 - 08:36 AM (#4083555)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick -


15 Dec 20 - 12:52 PM (#4083591)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

?????? ???? ??? ??

kutta bhonk raha hai


15 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM (#4083592)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Don't know what Kutta BHONK raha rai means but in Hindi Kutta BHOK raha rai means I am afraid according to my good lady who speaks the language.

Perhaps he meant kutta bhag raha rai which translates (Iam told) as I am being bored.


15 Dec 20 - 01:07 PM (#4083594)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

You are just arguing and for arguments sake and purposely being obstreperous, Dick. You know you are on thin ice here anyway. Why risk plunging into the cold?


15 Dec 20 - 01:08 PM (#4083595)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Raggy - whatever he is, he has similar disruptive attention-seeking behaviour issues
as the most problematic 5-year olds my wife teaches...


15 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM (#4083598)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

Dick, if they aren't playing the way you want to play then go find a different thread to participate in. Don't start a new one, that won't fly. Just find something else to do. And the rest of you could pull up your socks and just ignore Dick.


15 Dec 20 - 02:17 PM (#4083601)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Hey, include me out of that admonishment, Maggie! :-)


16 Dec 20 - 05:20 AM (#4083686)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I am intending to get vaccinated as soon as possible,while i have a good immune system, i feel it would be unfair on the vulnerable in the community to pass on a virus which could possibly result in another persons death, undoubtedly there are people out there who muight regard this as idiotic, i am assuming vaccination prevents the passing on of covid 19.
i am not an expert on the subject , but i am sure there are experts who regularly contribute to this thread, who know about the dangers and the safety of the vaccines


16 Dec 20 - 05:30 AM (#4083688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Would have been better in the coronavirus thread, Dick. Incidentally, as things stand that isn't a safe assumption. The vaccine preventing illness is one thing. Killing off the virus if it gets in your body, so that you can't spread it, is an entirely other.


16 Dec 20 - 05:30 AM (#4083689)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

There is no certainty that getting vaccinated will prevent you catching the disease or passing it to others.
If you get vaccinated it should prevent you ending up in hospital, which will mean the health service can treat more cancer patients and replace more hips and knees.


16 Dec 20 - 06:35 AM (#4083695)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

jos, well that is a good reason for getting vaccinated i would have thought. . i wanted to hear from the people who contribute to this thread


16 Dec 20 - 06:57 AM (#4083700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”There is no certainty that getting vaccinated will prevent you catching the disease or passing it to others.
If you get vaccinated it should prevent you ending up in hospital, which will mean the health service can treat more cancer patients and replace more hips and knees.”


Jos, that’s pretty much my layman’s understanding of vaccination, and seems a good reason to get it when it becomes available for my age-group/health situation.


16 Dec 20 - 07:27 AM (#4083705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Vaccines work by promoting antibody reaction in the body, just as catching the disease does. Whilst we are still in the short-term, the fact that there have been extremely few documented cases of catching it more than once (and you don't necessarily have to believe every single one, as some people just love to be special), it seems that immunity lasts at least for a good few months, if not longer. Another thing is that the vaccines appear to promote a stronger immune response than catching the disease. The issue of what exactly the vaccine does or doesn't do is something that applies to many, if not most or all, vaccines. We can't carry on living life in that worrying way. Have the vaccine when it's your turn then relax just somewhat.


16 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM (#4083708)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”Have the vaccine when it's your turn then relax just somewhat”

That’s my policy. Thanks Steve.


16 Dec 20 - 08:40 AM (#4083717)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

”Have the vaccine when it's your turn then relax just somewhat”

Mine is to have the vaccine, but not really to relax somewhat. That will only come when the level of vaccinated people is above perhaps 50% or we find the vaccine does significantly reduce the likelihood you are a carrier. (Which my best guess it that it will, but let's await evidence.)


16 Dec 20 - 10:18 AM (#4083733)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm between 60 and 65..

A kinda no mans land waiting room...

It's going to be a very anxious over cautious long time in the queue for my vaccine,
while the tories are forcing my 'over 50s' wife
to teach potentially increasingly infectious school kids every working day...


16 Dec 20 - 10:46 AM (#4083734)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

You need more like 70% vaccinated to create the kind of "herd immunity" that has been established for measles and other diseases. That discussion is making the rounds now in the US - how many vaccinated before the social distancing requirements and such can expire.


16 Dec 20 - 11:12 AM (#4083742)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

It seems sensible to me to keep social-distancing, hand-washing, and mask-wearing (sorry Steve, I’m a belt, braces and pieces of string below the knees kinda guy!) even after vaccination. I’m 73 and diabetic, and I’m taking no chances.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


16 Dec 20 - 11:21 AM (#4083745)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

You need more like 70% vaccinated to create the kind of "herd immunity" ....

I agree, Silly, and it may be more of a problem in the US than the UK (but it could be bad enough here): What do you do if you can get to 50-60% vaccination and then cannot really increase the level further because of anti-vaxxers and the like? Also, it is important to remember that there is probably 5-10% who can't take the vaccine even if they want to, like those with immune system problems.

I would certainly prefer us to get to maybe 70% before relaxing at all, but if the resistance to people taking the vaccine is high enough, I might have to relax before that.


16 Dec 20 - 12:20 PM (#4083756)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Both you and Maggie haven't quite got this right. Herd immunity for measles requires at least 92 in every hundred people to be immune. We've had outbreaks in the UK when the number has dropped into the 80s. Fortunately, immunity is long-lived. The threshold for flu is much lower. For certain childhood diseases, such as whooping cough, the overall population threshold isn't a great way of looking at it: it's far more important that children and young parents have the highest percentages, as they overwhelmingly are the children's most frequent contacts. Another factor is that herd immunity can diminish over a short time if (as we might suspect for coronavirus, though we don't yet know) immunity is short-lived or lost as people age with a consequent weakening of their immune system. I wouldn't be hanging your hopes on that 70% number if I were you. That's about the median figure of the estimates, but that figure may well be confounded by interventions such as lockdowns and shielding, both of which, for very good reasons, artificially keep the transmission rate down, thereby extending the time it will take for herd immunity to kick in.


16 Dec 20 - 12:39 PM (#4083761)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I am not relying on the 70% figure, Steve. Back in March, according the oracle that is "The Daily Mail" Sir Patrick Vallance said around 60 per cent of the population will need to catch the virus to build up a national tolerance strong enough to stop the virus circulating. I am sure I could find similar reporting from other papers. but that is the one that came up first. It may be 60%. It may be 70%, it may be 93%, or 43%: we really have very little way of knowing yet. Until we have at least one substantial community with widespread infection or vaccination you are essentially trying to estimate where a curve 'flattens off' while you are still on a piece with a high gradient.

But I was really trying to make a different point. It was if you need to have a certain level to achieve herd immunity, what do you do when, for whatever reason, you cannot get to that percentage? That will require a judgement call at some time.


16 Dec 20 - 01:34 PM (#4083777)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Unfortunately, we can't rely on flattening or plummeting curves to predict herd immunity: we had both in the summer, remember. Assuming that immunity lasts at least a few months once you've had the virus (unsafe, but hey), and that the vaccine stalls transmission as well as preventing illness (unsafe, but hey), and that restrictions help to keep the reinfection rate low (more likely than not but not settled science), we could see a sharp tailing-off of cases in the next few months. I'm up for hanging on to that one...


17 Dec 20 - 03:03 AM (#4083847)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

That's a somewhat different thing, Steve. It is a bit like the difference between sin(x) and sin-1(x). We would not trying to work out what the herd immunity threshold (HIT) is from the R, as we have to at the moment, where

HIT= 1 - 1/R0

That is really difficult because R0 has to be estimated from all the local R values which vary across the country and are affected by policies like tiers and lockdowns. That reciprocal also means quite a small change in the R value can have a large change in the HIT, which is why we cannot be very certain what the range of the percentage for herd immunity is.

Rather, we are working from the opposite end: given we have a certain level of immunity (via infections and vaccines), what effect is that having on R?

It is admittedly a little over 40 years since I worked on this sort of stuff, but as far as I can tell the fundamental modelling hasn't changed that much.   In those days we had to model essentially a population and now the modelling is more based on large numbers of interacting populations, so that adds a lot of variation and sophistication I haven't worked with at all, but the heart of modelling does seem to be similar.


17 Dec 20 - 03:34 AM (#4083849)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

You just need to ensure that you mingle with the right herd.


17 Dec 20 - 09:28 AM (#4083868)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

We are still dealing with a mass of uncertainties here. Other factors, of which we know not a lot, are the longevity of the virus in the environment, and how "catching" it is (to be a bit less technical than you). We need mass vaccination and we need to be bloody tough on vaccine refusers. The herd immunity calculations can come later.


17 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM (#4083874)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

however not avoiding paying tax ensures that the government cannot afford to pay nurses more money, there is a shortage of nurses right now paying more money to nurses might ensure less people die,   Croydon DOG WITH 3 LEGS think he is giving helpful advice, but his tax advice is entirely for selfish people, typical of the present conservative administration.
why is NHS underfunded, not enough tax payers money, undoubtedly i will be called a childish idiot by the usual suspects,but what i am advocating is patriotic in the best sense of the word


18 Dec 20 - 02:52 AM (#4083959)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

then there is the owner of the daily mail, viscount harmsworth, a tax exile, he is responsible indirectly along with people who show how to avoid tax, for the underfunding of the nhs and the lack of nurses.it is like long distance manslaughter


18 Dec 20 - 09:21 PM (#4084097)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

Brexit: The Teabag Analogy


18 Dec 20 - 10:38 PM (#4084109)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

thats very good robomatic


20 Dec 20 - 12:56 PM (#4084321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Did anyone else hear Bozzer on the box yesterday saying this government had always followed medical advice? Maybe I imagined it. Surely not even he could lie so blatantly.


21 Dec 20 - 02:27 AM (#4084397)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

now the squit has really hit the fan , anyone know much about the new variant of covid in the uk


21 Dec 20 - 03:04 AM (#4084400)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

dave i dont think boris know the differnce between lies and truth, is it possible he is a psychopath


21 Dec 20 - 04:59 AM (#4084411)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

anyone know much about the new variant of covid in the uk

I don't think anyone in the general public does yet, Sandman. All we know is that it is easier to catch (which means its R value is much higher, which means it will double in much less time.) But beyond that, there is little information.

I feel unhappily confident that a national lockdown will be needed by the end of January at the latest. Although France and other countries are saying the halt of lorries etc is for 48 hours I very much doubt it. The 48 hours is merely to work out what to do and will be followed by a longer blockade either in total or for less essential goods. So we might find foodstuffs, for example, much less readily available than we are used to.

Moreover, I expect such blockades to spread. Other countries do not want the new strain, and I think many will take similar actions on passenger flights, for example. Goods are rather less of an issue simply because fewer people are moving into and out of the UK.

The essential difference between New Zealand, Asia and much of the rest of the southern hemisphere when compared to the UK and the rest of Europe, is that they took it very seriously on day 1 and we did not. I get the impression Europe is attempting to learn that lesson with the new strain. Whether they can do so effectively while the old strain is still active is another matter, but it looks like they are trying.


21 Dec 20 - 06:23 AM (#4084424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

While I am sure that what they say about the new variant being more virulent is true, I am not convinced that it is the sole cause of rapid spread in London and the SE. They have known about the mutation since September and it is already elsewhere in the UK. Surely keeping the area in tier 2 when it was obvious more restrictions were warranted has a lot to do with it. Keeping London out of lockdown was a political decision and now that has come to bite them on the bum they are looking for excuses.


21 Dec 20 - 06:54 AM (#4084428)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Just a minor correction to that Dave, since one of the scientists I was   listening to made the same slip and then carefully corrected himself: the new strain is not technically more virulent (as far as we know) because that refers to how damaging it is when you get it. It is, however, more easily transmitted.


21 Dec 20 - 10:31 AM (#4084451)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks, Dave. Better coming from you than Nigel ;-)


21 Dec 20 - 12:02 PM (#4084462)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

My ambitions are not so lofty!


21 Dec 20 - 01:48 PM (#4084476)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Boris: We are having Christmas. It would be inhuman not to.

Scientists: We can't really, the NHS would melt down in January.

Boris: Oh, shit. How can I back out now then?

Scientists: Well, there is a new varient that transmits quicker..

Boris: Yes, yes! We'll use that excuse.

Political advisers: Errrr, we are not sure that is a good id....

Boris: Course it is. I can't see anything wrong with it. Sorry nation.?? I have had news. We have a super spreading virus and have to shut everything.

Macron: Is that right, Boris?

Boris: Yes, it is. We are sooooo contagious I had no choice but to cancel Christmas.

Macron (and the rest of the EU): In that case we have to shut all our borders.

Boris: oh fu....


24 Dec 20 - 02:22 AM (#4084810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

So supposedly the deal is done and we will be told something about it in about 50 minutes time. That means now is a good time for rash predictions!

Kipling advised that when meeting Triumph and Disaster to treat those two imposters just the same. I am sure that will apply here. Some will proclaim a great Triumph - not least Boris! - but many more will denounce it as a betrayal, notably Farage and a good proportion of the ERG. Their protests will count for nothing in the short term, since Starmer will whip Labour to vote for it. (He *might* risk a free vote, but I think it extremely unlikely.)

Starmer's speeches in Parliament will all be about how poor a deal it is, how it sells the country short and is almost the worst possible outcome. But no-deal is worse, and that is why he will support the deal. It is a tricky stance, but gives him the best positioning for potential supporters, whether they voted Leave or Remain.

So I don't see the UK voting against the deal.

There is a possibility, maybe even quite a large probability, of an EU country using their veto to stop the deal, but this will largely be posturing to make a political point, and perhaps get more funding from the rest of the EU; I think all the EU states will agree before the year is out.

The deal is actually about trade and security. Of the two, I think the security is more important, but I expect the media to concentrate on the trade aspect. Not that trade is unimportant, but I think any hiatus would be addressed much more quickly than a breakdown in the security relationships.


24 Dec 20 - 03:24 AM (#4084815)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Don't know about Brexit. Here in Dover we are just waiting for Mendit.


24 Dec 20 - 08:16 AM (#4084831)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

what is it like in dover tell us


24 Dec 20 - 08:22 AM (#4084832)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Bloody awful. The town is gridlocked with cross channel traffic. Makes it very difficult for vehicles to make their way around town.

26 French firefighters along with 10,000 test kits, arrived early today to help with the backlog.


24 Dec 20 - 01:04 PM (#4084859)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

God knows why Starmer has committed Labour to vote for this deal. I've just put up with Johnson lying in his teeth about how we've taken back control, etc. We have not. We will abide by EU regulations or suffer if we stray from them. We've lost so much and gained next to nothing. Or nothing at all.


24 Dec 20 - 02:21 PM (#4084869)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”God knows why Starmer has committed Labour to vote for this deal”

Because the alternative- No Deal - is simply too dreadful to contemplate? Because, as usual, Johnson had left it until the last minute so that he could claim it’s the best deal available, there was no alternative?


24 Dec 20 - 02:46 PM (#4084871)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow

Boris's heritage - the man who achieved Brexit. And destroyed the United Kingdom.

Should have stuck with Have I Got News for You.

Boris the Bald, very soon now.


24 Dec 20 - 03:05 PM (#4084879)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

We could and should have had a deal months ago. Both sides have a share of the blame for that. Hopefully it will be accepted by all the parties. Of course it would be nice to have some details. The devil is in the detail.

Meanwhile, the police have finally managed to restore some order to the traffic in Dover. Port traffic queuing in just one lane of the one way system, allowing town traffic to move. Still lots queuing on the A20 route into town plus all those at Manston airfield.

Rumours are that the French firemen who arrived to help with testing were seen with fishing rods. You have to keep an eye on them.


24 Dec 20 - 04:03 PM (#4084893)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

This morning while waiting for the 'expected' deal to be announced,
I had to nip to the bathroom..

While standing in front of the bog, I let out a squeaky little two tone fart
which surprised me,
because it sounded like my arse just whispered "brex-it"...!!!

Is this an omen...???


24 Dec 20 - 06:48 PM (#4084911)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

all the best to all the peace campaigners, care workers, homeless, trade unionists, refugees, community activists, environmentalists and tireless anti-racists who keep positivity and hope alive. and, obviously, f**k the rest of you eejits, every one.


24 Dec 20 - 07:06 PM (#4084913)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

pfr, you just channeled Catspaw.


25 Dec 20 - 03:55 AM (#4084936)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

and nobody lived happily ever after


25 Dec 20 - 04:40 AM (#4084937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i think crbyn would have done better, however i have only looked superficially, , but it could be a lot worse, has the whole thing been a storm in a teacup.
border at northern ireland ports that is good, from an irish perspective it could be much worse


25 Dec 20 - 06:20 AM (#4084941)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

And a merrie Christemas!!!


25 Dec 20 - 07:08 AM (#4084944)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I think the line "peace on earth and good will to all men" needs an airing!


25 Dec 20 - 08:38 AM (#4084950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

At least Brexit has made the UK think more about globalism and how to apply it or not on a case by case basis. Overall its been a pain in the arse.


27 Dec 20 - 02:59 AM (#4085121)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Ave we got are cuntry back yet?


27 Dec 20 - 03:46 AM (#4085122)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

no your country is owned by the multinationals and the land owning aristocracy including the church of england


27 Dec 20 - 06:31 AM (#4085134)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Provoked by someone I heard on Broadcasting House this morning (as I always like to own up to being unoriginal), I'd say that when you hear what a great trade deal we've achieved, it's worth remembering that in order to get it we had to ditch a much better trade deal, the one called "being a member of the EU."


27 Dec 20 - 09:01 AM (#4085145)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"i think crbyn would have done better"

And for your next joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


27 Dec 20 - 11:01 AM (#4085156)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Good opinion piece from Will Hutton in The Observer

Yes, it is opinion. It also happens to be mainly true. The opening shot is particularly painful

The dream is over. On New Year’s Day, the curtain comes down on Britain’s long engagement with Europe’s noblest and greatest effort at collaboration and liberty. Our freedoms are to be slashed and an immense bureaucracy imposed on us. Next Friday Britons will lose the freedom to live, work, and trade in goods and services as they choose throughout the EU. Once natural rights are to be torched.

I can do little but shake my head in disbelief and curse those who brought us to this :-(


27 Dec 20 - 12:06 PM (#4085169)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Yeah but Mr Will Hutton,apart from that things are not to bad.

It will be a good few years before we will be able to judge if we are better or worse for leaving the EU. I thought maybe 5 years but now it will probably be longer due to the huge financial problems as a result of covid.

I voted to remain and I have never been convinced that there are going to be huge financial benefits to our leaving. We will have to see once things settle down.

Yet again he cannot let the vote go. The many ways in which people like to count it.Labour let that genie out of the bottle in 1975, not forgetting that we nearly always end up with a government which the majority of the country have not voted for.


27 Dec 20 - 12:26 PM (#4085175)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

And whoever you vote for, the government always gets in.


27 Dec 20 - 12:28 PM (#4085176)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

A bit like how we ended up with brexit then, Rain Dog.


27 Dec 20 - 01:28 PM (#4085193)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'd have been less suspicious of brexit,
if it had been the Labour party who had propsed and campainged for it,
instead of posh rich tories, farage, ukip, britain first, etc...


27 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM (#4085234)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. but the real alarm siren for me,
was when trump and his cult of cronies started bigging up farage and brexit..

.. not that surprising if putin and Cchina are also fully in favour
of breaking up and destabilising Europe...???


30 Dec 20 - 02:42 AM (#4085626)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

What are we all going to do with our last 2 days in the EU then? I'm going to eat and drink all the European leftovers from Christmas :-)

Post Brexit? Only one option really - Instead of remainers we can become rejoiners! OK, it may not be on as good terms as we had but must be better than Bozzers "deal".


30 Dec 20 - 03:33 AM (#4085630)
Subject: BS: incompetent british prime minsters
From: The Sandman

For many years this honour seemed to belong to Callaghan , who could not sort out a dustmans strike and let Thatxcher in to power.
however Cameron surpassed, sunny jim, by allowing a referendum on the EU,


30 Dec 20 - 03:39 AM (#4085631)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Bonzo not a joke. i understand why a capitalist lackey dislikes corbyn , because corbyn unlike you has principles you are the person whose only consideration when investing is how much money you can make


30 Dec 20 - 04:11 AM (#4085636)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave the Gnome

Should be in the British politics thread surely.

In the meanwhile my vote goes to Bozzer . "Call me Dave" made a catastrophic blunder with the referendum, as did Blair with the Iraq war, but aside from that he was pretty bland.


30 Dec 20 - 06:04 AM (#4085646)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I simply can't understand why Starmer is whipping Labour MPs to vote in favour of this deal. When the inevitable happens and things go belly-up, Johnson will be able to turn round and say, well, you did vote for it...

This is a stinkin' Tory deal and the Tories alone must own it (I note that all the other parliamentary parties are going to vote against). Starmer was the fence-sitter par excellence over a second referendum, and now he's being pusillanimous in failing to do what an opposition is supposed to do, oppose bad government policies. He's a bloody disaster for my party. I'm considering my position here...


30 Dec 20 - 06:29 AM (#4085648)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force

Edward Heath. Tricked us into Europe on such disastrous terms that even Labour tried to renegotiate, with as much success as you might expect.


30 Dec 20 - 06:54 AM (#4085653)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

yes, i've just watched ian blackford speaking in the debate. he was very impressive in making an unanswerable case for rejecting the deal, particularly for scotland. he dealt with the 'muttering' 'lying' 'shame on you' 'deceitful' tories with contempt. he noted that every party in scotland has united to oppose the tories - including scottish labour. Not one labour mp stood up to challenge him - or to support him. keir starmer sat motionless throughout - utterly discredited. his support for the tory project revealed as a cowardly, narrow, politically cynical, useless stunt.

i left the party a few months back - our brief flirtation with progressive and principled politics having been killed off by the dark forces of 'labour' rightwingers - and joined the greens yesterday.

happy new year everyone


30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM (#4085656)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. I'd say that it's not possible to blame Heath (if you really must blame anybody) exclusively. The Labour Party connived, as did the electorate.

The Cameron regime put the poorest in this country through years of miserable austerity, which didn't have the effect he desired and which history will judge to have been completely unnecessary. His hubris convinced him that he would win the referendum. Instead, he pitched us into four useless years of wrangling and a dishonourable and shabby exit from the best trading bloc (among many other of its positive attributes) we could ever have belonged to. He gets my vote, though he is facing stiff competition from the present incumbent, and he will no doubt soon be overtaken in the crass stupidity stakes.


30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM (#4085657)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I left the Labour party a few weeks back on principle. I was a member of the Greens too but cancelled my membership there due to an administrative cock up that proved they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. When Labour return to their core values and stop pandering to the ludicrous right wing Israeli lobby I may rejoin.


30 Dec 20 - 07:11 AM (#4085658)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw

And speaking of the Cameron years, don't get me started on the inhuman and humiliating treatment that millions of sick, disabled and unemployed people had to endure under Iain Duncan-Smith, not to speak of the "liberation" of the labour market via zero-hours contracts, fake apprenticeship schemes, forcing millions to declare themselves to be "self-employed" (equals no sick pay, no holiday pay, no maternity pay) and the stripping away of workers' rights.


30 Dec 20 - 07:13 AM (#4085659)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I don't envy Starmer's position at all in this. But if people say they can't understand why he is voting as he is, they are saying if no-deal happens they do not recognise that tbe Tories will claim for the next 50 years that they had a deal but Labour wrecked it, so all blame is on Labour. After all, look how much mileage they have got out of 'The Winter of Discontent'.

Now, maybe since the ERG have said they will support the deal the arithmetic has changed a bit and the risks are lower, but do not doubt that if Labour voted against a deal and we ended up in no deal, Labour would be saddled with all the blame for the rest of our lives and beyond.


30 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM (#4085663)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

This YouGov poll is pertinent to the discussion:

"According to new polling by YouGov, Britons overwhelmingly - by a margin of more than six to one - want MPs to pass the trade deal legislation. Even remain supporters and Labour supporters are far more likely to say M MPs should vote in favour than vote against, the poll suggests.

But the poll also suggests that fewer than one in five people think it is a good deal. Even Conservative supporters and leave supporters are more inclined to see it as “neither good nor bad” than as a mainly positive achievement.


30 Dec 20 - 07:49 AM (#4085665)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Nigel Parsons

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership.
The 2016 referendum took place under a Conservative government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. It was only because of a disconnect between the government and the public that support for UKIP rose to such a level that Cameron felt threatened and offered a referendum. Both major parties were still in favour of continuing with our membership.

In more recent years it seems difficult to tell whether the party leaders (particularly May, Corbyn & Starmer) support membership of the EU or not.


30 Dec 20 - 08:08 AM (#4085666)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

That's all very well, but this deal is going through whatever Labour do. That's the position and that should inform Labour's stance. I repeat: this is a Tory deal and history must record that the Tories alone own it.


30 Dec 20 - 08:27 AM (#4085669)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force

I'm sticking with Heath. If he'd done the job properly, i.e. from a position of strength, we might still be in the EU today.


30 Dec 20 - 08:40 AM (#4085672)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

As I say, now the the ERG appears to be in favour of the deal, the arithmetic has changed. Until then, it was quite feasible the deal fell if a substantial part of the ERG group and Labour (plus SNP and others) voted against. Now the ERG appears settled in favour, the risk of no deal is a lot lower. We might get some clue in an hour or so whether it would have fallen without Labour - or we may not, I suspect it will not be that clear.


30 Dec 20 - 08:57 AM (#4085677)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Jos

I still haven't forgiven Boris for saying Jo Cox's memory should be honoured by getting Brexit done - when that was the thing she didn't want.


30 Dec 20 - 10:26 AM (#4085684)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Malcolm Storey

Well the last two were progressively worse but this latest buffoon is set to leave them standing in the stupidity stakes.


30 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM (#4085685)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

labour - or parliament - did not have to support this deal. at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis. now labour have supported us leaving the EU. leaving the EU at the worst possible time. leaving the EU without having had any say in deciding the terms of departure. supported us leaving the EU at the worst possible terms for vulnerable workers, uk migrants in europe. leaving the EU - supporting tories to do critical damage to our industries and services. and erasmus ffs!

all because they never had the bottle to stand up to the nicotine-stained man frog. and politically out-manoeuvred by boris johnson. they are trying to appeal to the mindset of voters who will never be appeased no matter how far right labour go - preferring this tactic to supporting the views of all their supporters and all of us who rely on them.

thoroughly embarrassing


30 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM (#4085688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis.

Not in practice. Only the government can introduce such a law directly, not Labour or the other parties. Labour might have been able to attach such an amendment to some other bill, but that would rely on the Speaker selecting it, which he would be unlikely to do unless it was specifically about the bill. He would probably not have allowed it, for example, as an amendment to the Internal Market bill.

Now the bill has passed (for all practical purposes) we need to build from where we are, not where we could have been in other circumstances.


30 Dec 20 - 11:03 AM (#4085693)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Just in case anyone misunderstands me when I say we have to work from where we are, I do *not* mean forget all the past. Our future options are limited by what we can do for each next step, but the past informs us not only what we have lost, but what can be achieved, so it can set a direction of travel. For example, there is no inherent reason we should permanently lose access to the security databases. There will be a price in cash and, yes, in sovereignty, but it can be done if we want.


30 Dec 20 - 11:04 AM (#4085694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Well.. the Post office is issuing notice that sending parcels to Europe
is going to become much more difficult;

and a major European music software developer has emailed
that Brits may not be able to purchase their products
until they try to understand and sort out practicalities of any new rules...

wot a fackup...


30 Dec 20 - 11:13 AM (#4085695)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: punkfolkrocker

My age group who were students during the early 80s
are still inclined to automatically nominate thatcher...!!!

.. though boris is nudging closer to usurping her...

.. but when he is pushed out, dread to think which tory **** will replace him...


30 Dec 20 - 11:25 AM (#4085696)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Mrs Backwoodsperson is the Logistics Operations Manager of the U.K. Division of the European arm of a world-wide petro-chemical processing company. She is still waiting to hear what new regulations will prevail, and what documentation will be required, in order to import goods from, and export goods to, the EU w.e.f. Friday, 1st January, 2021.


30 Dec 20 - 11:52 AM (#4085702)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jon Freeman

I had a look at the Prusa (a respected Czech maker of 3D printers) website yesterday and saw they had a notice saying they had suspended taking orders from the UK because of the Brexit situation.


31 Dec 20 - 04:24 AM (#4085804)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

After Labour was defeated at the 1970 general election, Callaghan played a key role in the Shadow Cabinet. He became Foreign Secretary in 1974 upon Labour regaining government, taking responsibility for renegotiating the terms of the UK's membership of the European Communities, and supporting a "Yes" vote in the 1975 referendum to remain in the EC


31 Dec 20 - 04:46 AM (#4085807)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

Cameron johnson thatcher are even worse than sunny jim


31 Dec 20 - 05:00 AM (#4085810)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Acorn4

Should have thought Anthony Eden worth a shout?


31 Dec 20 - 07:32 AM (#4085824)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Nigel Parsons

"Call me Dave" made a catastrophic blunder with the referendum, as did Blair with the Iraq war, but aside from that he was pretty bland.
Extremely gentle to Blair.
He did not "make a blunder". He chose to take the UK into an illegal war. He got Parliament to assent based on his claim to have seen definite proof that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, but not being willing to share this evidence with Parliament.


31 Dec 20 - 07:37 AM (#4085827)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: punkfolkrocker

Labour or tory, our PMs seem to end up as America's tame lap dogs...


31 Dec 20 - 07:48 AM (#4085833)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes Nigel. They both made catastrophic decisions for the sake of their political careers. Which is pretty much what I said.


31 Dec 20 - 08:31 AM (#4085838)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

not so attlee or harold wilson were they americas tame lap dogs. now heath was very much a european was he an american tame lap dog, he may have been over enthusiastic about europe and may not have negotriated the best terms, please correct me if i am wrong, the last astaement may not be totally informed


31 Dec 20 - 08:33 AM (#4085839)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

mind you heath was a bad PM ,THE MAN THAT GAVE THE UK A 3 DAY WEEK


31 Dec 20 - 10:03 AM (#4085847)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Mr Red

'King Boris

Because his only qualification for the job was that he wanted it.

A turncoat just like Trump. And look what is happening there.

And if you thought Callaghan & Heath put the country in queer street, the next four years will be telling.

And on a lighter note, during the 3 day week, in a factory visit, there was a notice on a door saying "Please close door to conserve HEAT" to which someone had appended a "T"


31 Dec 20 - 10:10 AM (#4085848)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

I think callagahn enabled mrs thatcher to get in to power,
i think heath had a disastrous 3 day week , so i was talking about heaths home not foreign policy


31 Dec 20 - 10:19 AM (#4085852)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Jos

Mr Red, did you mean 'to which someone had appended an "H"'?


31 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM (#4085855)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Mr Red

Yes an H - I was distracted by Mrs T


31 Dec 20 - 10:43 AM (#4085857)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Acorn4

Also depends how far back:-

Lord Liverpool - presided over the era of Peterloo and the Corn Laws.

Lord John Russell - disastrous response to the Irish potato famine.

The Duke of Wellington's stint as Pm was also pretty disastrous though he did enable the Catholic Emancipation Act as I recall


31 Dec 20 - 02:54 PM (#4085906)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I hardly dare ask, but does Mrs Backwoodsperson know yet?


31 Dec 20 - 03:18 PM (#4085909)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Starmer is the Ramsay Macdonald of 2020


31 Dec 20 - 04:58 PM (#4085923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy

2 more hours! Wow!

[I just remembered time zones.]


31 Dec 20 - 05:21 PM (#4085929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

39 minutes. It's now 22:21 UTC


31 Dec 20 - 05:59 PM (#4085934)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

DMcG - no further info up to yesterday. She’s on leave now until 4/1/21.


31 Dec 20 - 06:00 PM (#4085935)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

However, she has contacts, and a plan...


31 Dec 20 - 06:10 PM (#4085936)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

News.. Boris's dad applying for French citizenship...???


01 Jan 21 - 01:25 AM (#4085971)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

No surprise there then...


01 Jan 21 - 03:55 AM (#4085977)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: BobL

Lord North - lost us our colonies the other side of the Pond.


01 Jan 21 - 06:34 AM (#4086001)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Bonzo3legs

Who WOULD have been the worst prime minister if elected ??? Gold medal goes to corbyn - no contest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


01 Jan 21 - 07:13 AM (#4086010)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

It is a disgrace that the trade agreement was only reached with a few days left.A lot of people both here and in the EU are unsure about the new procedures. The UK is adopting a hands off approach for the first 6 months with regards to imports. Exports of course are entirely another matter.

The port entrance was very quiet at 10.00 this morning, apart from the number of TV crews standing around with nothing to do.


01 Jan 21 - 07:40 AM (#4086017)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave Hanson

I've been a Labour voter all my life but I tend to agree with Bonzo about Mr Corbyn.

Dave H


01 Jan 21 - 08:16 AM (#4086020)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Backwoodsman

I don’t know if he would have been the ‘worst’ PM, but he certainly managed to alienate a lot of voters, and his supporters currently waging a civil war within the party are in danger of doing the same.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


01 Jan 21 - 09:00 AM (#4086022)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw

Daft question in m'humble. Very strong, pig-headed leaders make for very damaging prime ministers (Thatcher, Johnson). Then there are those who can't work with advisers (May). Corbyn is not of that ilk and he would likely have worked well with advisers. Of course, that raises the question of the quality of those advisers. Let's hope that Starmer is booted out before the next election. He isn't even a leader, and he would make such a terrible prime minister that the Tories would quickly regain power and hold it for a generation. And if anyone is fomenting a civil war in Labour, it's him. He should never have whipped MPs to vote for Johnson's shoddy deal and he should not have made himself supine before the Board Of Deputies. These things will come back to bite him, and it won't necessarily be the fault of leftie Labourites either.


01 Jan 21 - 10:02 AM (#4086024)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Raggytash

Have to take issue with you there Steve, Johnson very strong? Don't think so.


01 Jan 21 - 10:35 AM (#4086026)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

I see that the new 'new variant' has been designated 'Variant of Concern'by Public Health England.


01 Jan 21 - 11:47 AM (#4086029)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw

I meant strong personalities, not possessing strong and visionary leadership skills. OK, read charismatic for strong.


01 Jan 21 - 01:56 PM (#4086041)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Re Stanley Johnson. Not a great fan but to be fair on this issue he seemingly voted Remain so if he has a legit route to regain his European Union citizenship then why not? I'd certainly do the same.


01 Jan 21 - 02:10 PM (#4086043)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

He’s a turncoat...

Stanley Johnson - Turncoat...


02 Jan 21 - 06:59 AM (#4086129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Acorn4

i'd like to ask Keir Starmer just one question to which the required answer would be yes or no:-

Is it correct that I am allowed to criticise the actions of the Britiah government, the US government, the Russian government or the German government but not the Israeli government?


02 Jan 21 - 07:07 AM (#4086131)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

You will never get a one-word answer from a politician. If you asked him that, I suspect that you'd get the full treatise around the IHRA false definition of antisemitism...


02 Jan 21 - 07:14 AM (#4086133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

People should be allowed to change their minds without being accused of being a "turncoat".

In the article linked to, Stanley Johnson expressed a belief about what would happen. It was NOT a life-long commitment with no option to retract if that belief turned out to be unfounded.


02 Jan 21 - 12:19 PM (#4086161)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Though how many times has old man johnson changed his mind on brexit,
to suit himself and his struggling PM son...???

At least the old fella is in a very comfy position, with more than enough options,
to weather the 'leave' storm,
his dopey boy has inflicted on the rest of us...


02 Jan 21 - 04:48 PM (#4086177)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Though how many times has old man Johnson changed his mind on brexit, to suit himself and his struggling PM son...???
Hardly at all. Right up until last month Johnson Snr. was writing articles in the Telegraph on why we should cancel Brexit.


04 Jan 21 - 06:41 AM (#4086401)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

So, yanks, you're not getting your grubby mitts on Julian Assange. Excellent!


04 Jan 21 - 10:50 AM (#4086422)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

How about a straight swap for Anne Sacoolas?


04 Jan 21 - 12:10 PM (#4086436)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Except that she should definitely be here but he should definitely not be there. In m'humble, of course.


04 Jan 21 - 12:15 PM (#4086438)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I have a very strong suspicion that, if there were to be such a swap, Mrs. Sacoolas would receive considerably better treatment by U.K. authorities than Julian Assange would receive from the authorities in the US.

A very good reason not to agree to such a swap in the unlikely event it was offered by the US.


04 Jan 21 - 02:34 PM (#4086453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Would Biden be taking on and continuing trumpy era legal grudge cases like Assange;
or maybe quietly letting them slip off the priority 'to do' list...???


04 Jan 21 - 03:20 PM (#4086458)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

well then.. lockdown from tomorrow...

But our inept / willfully negligent / ideologically vindictive / murderous / tory Govt
could not resist just one more day of cramming infected kids and parents into primary schools...

So, how can we not suspect a deliberate attempt to kill off expensive older teachers,
falsely accused of being marxist feminist brainwashers of innocent naturally conservative children..

..when there's a massed herd of newly redundant right wing business and financial workers
who are available to be redeployed as fast tracked ideologically 'acceptable' teacher substitutes...?????

nah.. that's far too cynical an idea...??????????????????????????????


04 Jan 21 - 03:53 PM (#4086466)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Jeeze pfr, tell us what you really think.


04 Jan 21 - 05:40 PM (#4086492)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Pay people to eat out
Open universities
Threaten schools with legal action if they close

Oh look. Infection rates are up. It must be this new strain. Can't be me. I follow science.

B Johnson. January 2021


04 Jan 21 - 05:59 PM (#4086495)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Yes pfr,that is far too cynical an idea.


04 Jan 21 - 06:27 PM (#4086503)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Excellent action by the government.


05 Jan 21 - 01:52 AM (#4086545)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I agree that the lockdown is good, Bonzo. It was the actions prior to that that were idiotic.

I just remembered that one of Terry Pratchett's characters was called Bloody Stupid Johnson. Prophetic or what!


05 Jan 21 - 02:01 AM (#4086547)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

Would Biden be taking on and continuing trumpy era legal grudge cases like Assange;
or maybe quietly letting them slip off the priority 'to do' list...???


The Assange business started during the Obama administration. This will hold more context for Biden than some of the other things Trump has mangled over the last four years.

As a journalist I have mixed feelings about Assange. Publishing the Manning stuff was one thing; publishing the Clinton emails as a tool of the Russians and Trump were entirely another and put his journalistic motivation to question.


05 Jan 21 - 04:36 AM (#4086564)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I agree we needed to lockdown, and immediately. It was, and is, the only way of getting a handle on things. But it is still too vague and lax in many ways. I am a Church-goer, but think it unwise to keep places of worship open. Yes, I understand the mental health aspect, but non-church-goers also have a mental health aspect, and there is no 'special' support for them. We are told to keep things local, but that is left vague. Are we allowed to drive somewhere for exercise? If so, is the 15 miles or so to my nearest National Trust property considered 'local'?


But the action the government is taking that concerns me most is this idea of a long delay between first and second vaccinations. Because if you asked me to come up with a way to evolve vaccine-resistant forms of the virus outside a lab, that is almost exactly the way I would do it.


05 Jan 21 - 05:20 AM (#4086571)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Schools should be closed, are they still open in the uk?


05 Jan 21 - 05:51 AM (#4086574)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"Are we allowed to drive somewhere for exercise? If so, is the 15 miles or so to my nearest National Trust property considered 'local'?"

Nah. It's only OK if you drive that far in order to test your eyesight for driving...   :-)


05 Jan 21 - 06:05 AM (#4086578)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - children were back 'as normal' for only one day yesterday..

Now today, teachers and other staff must attend school all day for emergency meetings and briefings..

Tomorrow, who the f@ck knows...???

It appears the academy that runs my wife's school completely excluded Union Reps
from any discussions and planning...???

At least that is how my wife understands what may have transpired behind the scenes...


Whatever happens, be assured the tories will blame Teacher's Unions
for all disruption and chaos...


05 Jan 21 - 07:02 AM (#4086582)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I thought, Steve, you might comment on the risk of evolving a vaccine-resistant variant of covid-19. Back in April 2020 at least 30 variants had been identified, so it looks like the virus is fairly adaptable.   Any thoughts? Obviously, neither of us has the detailed knowledge of viruses to answer the question rigorously, but in general terms the risks and processes seem to be similar to evolving antibiotic resistant    bacteria etc.


06 Jan 21 - 03:55 AM (#4086666)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Johnson, has proved to be inept, schools should have been closed a while ago, number one priority is stopping the spread of the virus.
Johnson has dithered and procrastinated and shown he is incompetent and yet bonzo 3legs and his like will still vote Conservative, they cannot admit that the NHS cannot cope because for years the conservatives have run it down., so that it is unable to cope with an emergency, meanwhile nurses are in short supply and are not paid enough.
how does johnsons deal compare to the one Theresa May would have got?
It appears that the most important difference is the non existence of the back stop, I think Thersa May had a higher level of competnce than Johnson and probably would have handled covid and brexit better, not difficult really, Starmer would have been better,, Corbyn would have been better,Johnson is an incompetent ditherer.There are three main differences between Theresa May's Brexit deal and Boris Johnson's one
Boris Johnson has been bullish about the UK leaving the EU on 31 October – will these changes help him?
Oct 19th 2019, 8:00 AM 40,491 Views 7 Comments
Share6 Tweet Email2
Image: PA Wire/PA Images

THE KEY DIFFERENCES between Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement, and Boris Johnson’s version of it are the alternative arrangement to the Irish backstop, a consent mechanism for the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the level-playing field provision.

The vast majority of the Withdrawal Agreement is untouched from its original format – with the changes focused on the two elements that pro-Brexit MPs took issue with the last three times a vote was taken on it (although the financial settlement has been reduced from £39 billion to £33 billion because of the extension).

Today’s vote in the House of Commons will clarify whether there was a legitimate concern over these elements, which Brexiteers claimed would locked the UK in a customs union that restricted the it from future trade deals, and agreeing to rules that would make the UK less competitive post-Brexit.

Despite nothing much in the 585-page Withdrawal Agreement having been changed, the things that have been changed are complicated to explain.

1. The backstop is gone

The backstop, was a plan B in the Withdrawal Agreement that would be implemented if an alternative agreement to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland couldn’t be found.

It would keep Northern Ireland aligned to the European Union’s Custom Union and Single Market, which Brexiteers argued would mean the UK couldn’t avail of future trade deals (Theresa May rejected a Northern Ireland-only backstop in favour of a UK-wide one in order to protect ‘the integrity of the union’).

The backstop’s replacement is similar to the original Northern Ireland-only backstop, with the additional issue of consent to make the mechanism less “antidemocratic”.

In short, it means that Northern Ireland will remain aligned to the EU’s Custom Union, but will be in the United Kingdom’s custom territory, meaning that if there are future trade deals struck, Northern Ireland would avail of them.

In practice, this would mean that if goods are sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, no tariffs apply. If goods are sent from Great Britain through Northern Ireland to Ireland, tariffs will apply, but they will be collected at ports and airports – effectively putting a customs border along the Irish Sea.

For goods sent from Ireland to Northern Ireland, there would be no tariffs, and for goods travelling from Ireland through Northern Ireland to Great Britain, there would be tariffs collected at the Irish Sea customs border.

2. Consent

This was an important part of the discussions, as it proved difficult to capture what true “consent” from Northern Ireland would be.

If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed by the House of Commons today, this arrangement will come into effect at the end of the transition period, which will end in December 2020 (or December 2022 if it’s extended).

Related Reads
18.10.19
'Too soon to celebrate': On the border, people give Brexit deal cautious welcome
17.10.19
Explainer: Here's how the consent vote in the North will work
17.10.19
Explainer: Where has the Northern Ireland backstop gone?

Four years after that, (but two months before the deadline), the Northern Ireland Assembly will get a vote on whether to keep this customs arrangement, or default to “existing” WTO rules.

Speaking to reporters in Brussels yesterday, the Taoiseach said: “So there is of course an outside chance that at some point in the latter part of the next decade… [an] Assembly might decide to opt out of alignment, opt out of the Single Electricity Market, opt out of the new customs arrangement.

    But I’m confident that’s not going to happen, because I think that people in Northern Ireland, businesses in the Northern Ireland, farmers in Northern Ireland are going to see and experience the benefits of this arrangement.

    But if there’s a risk we’re taking, the risk we’re taking is one on democracy, and saying to people in Northern Ireland that you determine your future and this is something I can stand over.

On the vote itself, if a simple majority is achieved (so half of the total of votes cast, plus one more vote at least), it would extend the arrangements for another four years.

If they receive a cross-party consensus, meaning a majority of 60%, and at least 40% support from unionists and nationalists, then the arrangements will be extended by eight years.

If there’s no Stormont Assembly in four years’ time, those elected will be reconvened for a vote on which direction to take Northern Ireland in.

Although the DUP is opposing the deal over customs, consent and VAT reasons, and fears that it would severe the North’s link with the rest of the United Kingdom, the Taoiseach said that in his view, it did not change its “constitutional status”.

    If this agreement is ratified and it is fully implemented, the queen will still be the queen; the pound will still be the pound; people will still post letters in Royal Mail red letterboxes, Northern Ireland will still be part of the United Kingdom.

3. The Political Declaration

The “level-playing field” provision was another sticking point for UK-EU negotiators. It essentially aimed to create a base level of standards for labour rights, the environment, tax and state aid rules.



This is so as to ensure state aid rules aren’t used by either side to boost their own companies; labour rules aren’t lowered in order to increase company profits; or environmental standards aren’t renegned upon in order to become more competitive post-Brexit.

This had been a legally-binding agreement contained in the Withdrawal Agreement – it’s now stated in the Political Declaration:

“the Parties agree to develop an ambitious, wide-ranging and balanced economic partnership. This partnership will be comprehensive, encompassing a Free Trade Agreement, as well as wider sectoral cooperation where it is in the mutual interest of both Parties.

“It will be underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part. It should facilitate trade and investment between the Parties to the extent possible, while respecting the integrity of the Union’s Single Market and the Customs Union as well as the United Kingdom’s internal market, and recognising the development of an independent trade policy by the United Kingdom.”

Reference to a customs union as the baseline for a future trade deal, and UK alignment with EU regulations have also been removed.


07 Jan 21 - 05:24 PM (#4086955)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Anyone fancy storming the houses of parliament? I don't think anyone has made a serious attempt since 1605 and we can learn a lot from our friends across the pond :-D


07 Jan 21 - 06:26 PM (#4086970)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well, Dave, in the US you might get shot. Storming Parliament here might get you bashed with either a truncheon or the mace...And that mace has a lot knobbly bits...

Sod it. That's the end of THAT revolution then... Bloody mace...


07 Jan 21 - 07:28 PM (#4086979)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

You really couldn't make this up.

Leave.EU the organisation founded by Aaron Banks to campaign for the UK to leave the EU now has transferred it's registered office to Ireland.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/07/leaveeu-leaves-britain-after-brexit


09 Jan 21 - 09:31 AM (#4087221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

england has been hijacked by a load of rich thieves and scroundrels. less showy than their US counterparts - but just as evil


11 Jan 21 - 02:47 AM (#4087457)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I see the government are setting up mass vaccination centres but you may have to travel up to an hour to get to one. In the middle of a lockdown where we have been told not to travel. Where the people who are getting the jabs are the over 80s and vulnerable who are most likely not to drive and going on public transport may spread the virus. While mixing with your elderly parents to drive them there could land you with a fine.

You couldn't make this stuff up.


11 Jan 21 - 03:30 AM (#4087462)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

There is an exemption for medical needs, so I guess you could get by with that.

This "don't travel" rule is self defeating. I live within 5 minutes walk of a shore. Unfortunately, because there are five multi-storey flats nearby and some multi-storey luxury flats about 5 minutes in another direction, so a few thousand other people also live within a short walk of that shore. So if I go there, it is inevitable I will be near hundreds of other people.

On the other hand, if I drive up to ten miles, there are dozens of places I could go where the chances of meeting more than two people is tiny, and the chances of meeting no-one at all quite high.

With some slight variations, I guess that is true of many of the 'built-up' areas of the country.

Now, I fully understand the rationale behind stopping transmission from one area to another, but it does not take a lot of thought to work out maybe the rules are not really achieving what we want.


11 Jan 21 - 06:53 AM (#4087468)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Maybe they are achieving what the government wants, Dave. Who knows!


11 Jan 21 - 09:37 AM (#4087489)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

This "don't travel" rule is self defeating. I live within 5 minutes walk of a shore. Unfortunately, because there are five multi-storey flats nearby and some multi-storey luxury flats about 5 minutes in another direction, so a few thousand other people also live within a short walk of that shore. So if I go there, it is inevitable I will be near hundreds of other people.
On the other hand, if I drive up to ten miles, there are dozens of places I could go where the chances of meeting more than two people is tiny, and the chances of meeting no-one at all quite high.


Unfortunately similar reasoning is being used by those who live ten miles away who want to have a walk by the shore.

Just a couple of days ago police fined two women for driving from Leicestershire to Derbyshire to meet-up for a walk. The police (apparently) said that as they'd taken coffee with them it was a 'picnic'.
Far be it from me to disagree with the police, but I think these two women were "a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic".


11 Jan 21 - 09:54 AM (#4087495)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Unfortunately similar reasoning is being used by those who live ten miles away who want to have a walk by the shore

Not really. My reasoning is that we should only go to places where there are few if any people. (And, by the way, to leave if we are mistaken.) It is not just to go wherever I happen to fancy.


11 Jan 21 - 11:55 AM (#4087512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

driving from Leicestershire to Derbyshire

Very disingenuous Nigel. You have been to Moira and know full well the proximity of those two counties, and Staffordshire if it comes to that. The ladies in question had driven about 5 miles. Local by most people's standards. As to the flask. What drink should we take out walking in this weather? Iced water? I have noticed that Derbyshire police are now reviewing their policies and the fines issued so far. So they should.


11 Jan 21 - 12:07 PM (#4087513)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

over zealous policing undermines public respect for lock down rules,
and only strengthens the confidence of militant anti lock down fukwits...


12 Jan 21 - 12:29 PM (#4087636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So, boris now seems to be competing to kill at least as many British civilians than even h1tler ever did...???

Well done, tories..

Persistently striving to make Britain world beaters...!!!


2020 saw most excess deaths since World War Two


12 Jan 21 - 01:21 PM (#4087641)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Some figure would show that he has already achieved that. 67,100 civilians were killed in the UK during WW2


12 Jan 21 - 06:35 PM (#4087669)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It is illegal for me to leave home without reasonable excuse (and I never do), for example, for essential food shopping and medicines.

But I can go to Morrisons supermarket and I can buy children's clothes, a duvet and covers, pots and pans, an iron, a microwave, lipstick and lots of other beauty products, perfume, chocolate and sweets, magazines, lottery tickets, birthday cards, the finest malt whiskies and a dozen types of fancy gin, children's toys, car shampoo, DVD box sets and flowers. I checked all that out this evening (I went as late as I could for my spuds, veg and milk and to shop for vulnerable friends).Then I can (but won't) nip to the garden centre and buy patio furniture, a nice shirt or two, a garden statue of a naked lady and a nice big pot plant.

Were I to buy any of those items, I wonder if that would mean that Morrisons and the garden centre could potentially be aiding and abetting my illegal behaviour...


13 Jan 21 - 02:52 AM (#4087702)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

When I go for our weekly shop I buy copious amounts of wine.

Now I am sure some people would claim that this is not an essential item, however the shop is open, they sell wine ................


I also suspect that had I burnt a saucepan or a duvet these too would be essential items to me.


13 Jan 21 - 04:20 AM (#4087704)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless he
quote
is there anywhere Bonzo can buy something to stop verbal squit , essential, most definiteley


13 Jan 21 - 04:22 AM (#4087705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I saw a youtube clip of a middle aged woman in bournemouth sitting alone on a bench with a cup of coffee being arrested and handcuffed by police,


13 Jan 21 - 05:44 AM (#4087713)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"Margaret Thatcher. God bless he"

Heheh. In view of what a lot of us thought about her aggression and hubris, I'll take that as a Freudian slip par excellence!

Burnt duvet, Raggytash?   Now how many times have I told you not to smoke that pipe in bed!


13 Jan 21 - 05:48 AM (#4087714)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Why drag up a post from 3 months ago I wonder.


13 Jan 21 - 05:56 AM (#4087716)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

That did occur to me too...


Dick...?


13 Jan 21 - 07:11 AM (#4087723)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Correct, Steve.


13 Jan 21 - 09:59 AM (#4087751)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Because i do not look that often below the belt and had only jusst noticed it , Raggytash , does it really matter whether it was posted yesterdayd or 3 months ago it is total squit.
Raggy whjat is your problem?


13 Jan 21 - 10:16 AM (#4087754)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

"Because i do not look that often below the belt and had only jusst noticed it"

That is absolute bollocks Dick, and you know it. A quick glance at your posting history shows you have posted over 600 times since 13th October.

That equates to 200 posts per month, or almost 7 posts a day. Most of those have been below the line.


13 Jan 21 - 10:20 AM (#4087757)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Perhaps I could mention that equates to one post every 4 hours, day and night, 7 days a week since October.


13 Jan 21 - 03:05 PM (#4087787)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I had only just noticed his post.
Raggytash have you got nothing else to do but count my posts.
I answered your question, it does not follow that i because post on mucat frequently that i noticed his post. or every post
i have other things to do than count posts


14 Jan 21 - 09:51 AM (#4087898)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Brexit news – live: Boris Johnson has not read trade deal text, No 10 hints as crisis plan for ports revealed


14 Jan 21 - 10:34 AM (#4087912)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"fomenting".. ahh.. not "fermenting".. I remember now.. gottit...

I agonised over that for a few minutes earlier this week.
But the mental block wouldn't budge,
so I gave up and used a near enough alternative word...


16 Jan 21 - 03:00 AM (#4088225)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Does anyone else see the similarities between our Bozzer and the Turnip across the pond? Gained power using blatant populism. Tells lies all the time. Took over a political party for their own aggrandisement. Will do anything to stay in power. Hopefully he will go the way of the Turnip too.


16 Jan 21 - 11:03 AM (#4088300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

yes.. they are both working for the same elite order
of hidden subterranean lizard people, who cloned them..

.. not that sensible lefties fall for conspiracy theories...


16 Jan 21 - 12:47 PM (#4088320)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

You know, I would never have thought it possible, but I am missing some of the banned right wingers. It would have been great to take the piss of them now :-)


16 Jan 21 - 01:02 PM (#4088324)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Remember.. I was always against banning the wonky headed antagonistic buggers..

They did serve a purpose, and had their entertainment value...


16 Jan 21 - 06:50 PM (#4088357)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Can't agree with that, pfr. The two or three I'm thinking of dragged the place down with their bad secret agendas, the sort of thing I've seen, when not controlled, on other websites that brought them into disrepute and nurtured a culture of trolling, flaming and sweary insults that just couldn't be recovered from. We can all agree or disagree about certain individuals (and, bejaysus, I've walked the tightrope meself on several occasions), but the bottom line is that this is someone else's site, someone who sweated his arse off to set it up with his own vision, him, not us, and we have no right to dictate terms here. We can squabble and argue and protest, and it's grand of the founder of this site to allow that. This is not a democracy. It's someone's vision, and we can sign up for free and bugger off for free, not having to make the commitment that the founder had to make. It costs us nowt. So celebrate the fact that you can freely put up your point of view and still have a bloody good grumble at Jeri, Maggie and Joe. They love us really...

...Don't you...?


Most of the time! ---mudelf


17 Jan 21 - 09:57 AM (#4088417)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Shock Brexit charges are hurting us

Just who are these charges a shock to I wonder? Just the knobs that voted for them I would have thought. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could see that anything going in and out of the EU would be adversely affected.


17 Jan 21 - 01:50 PM (#4088452)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Weren’t we assured by Brexiteers and their supporters, including on this forum, that warnings of this kind of thing by Remain campaigners were nothing more than ‘Project Fear’?


17 Jan 21 - 02:06 PM (#4088457)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Was that a corporate mudelf or just one of you? :-) :-) :-)


20 Jan 21 - 09:30 AM (#4088926)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:53 AM

”It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."

That’s an interpretation you have chosen to put on it Steve. You’re the one who brings up ‘lefties’, etc., not me. Own your prejudice.

When I talk about ‘unity in the LP’, I’m asking for both sides to bury the hatchet and work together for the good, not only of the Party, but also of the vast majority of the people of this country.

And yes, DMcG, I agree that this discussion would be better placed in the UK Politics thread, but others raised it here.

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM

It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM

You're assuming that you've been right all along about Jeremy Corbyn. The splits in the party were caused not by him but by his opponents (constantly briefing against him, using the bogus antisemitism nonsense as a stick to beat him with, refusing to be in his shadow cabinet, etc. A death wish by the party right...). There's a very interesting new book that's been given excellent reviews, even by the right-wing press (before you say anything) that gives what's been described as a very honest account of Corbyn's leadership and what went wrong for him, This Land by Owen Jones. I'll be buying it. Corbyn stunned the pundits by robbing May of her majority in 2017. The Tories didn't like it, the media didn't like it and the right wing in the Labour Party didn't like it. So, next time round, out came the big guns...

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:03 AM

Funny though, isn’t it Steve, that when I appeal for unity in the Labour Party and support for the democratically-elected leader in order to concentrate on fighting the worst Tory government we’ve had for a great many years, I’m jumped on and lambasted by our resident Corbynistas?

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:36 AM

It's a bit like when there's plenty of money in the bank, Dave (not that I'd know). Little crises that might cause splits can be overridden. Money-in-the-bank for the Tories is their big majority. If they were to lose most or all of that majority next time round, there would be splits, but whether that would be enough to wreck 'em kind of hinges on Labour not having even bigger splits...

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:22 AM

Is the Republican party torn by internal division? We can only hope our Tories will go the same way but, for now, that seems to be the prerogative of the Labour party!


20 Jan 21 - 09:31 AM (#4088927)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

There. That was the exchanges that started up in the wrong thread. Carry on...


20 Jan 21 - 09:33 AM (#4088929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Depending on which way you read threads, that might have gone in a funny way up,....


20 Jan 21 - 09:58 AM (#4088931)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well, John, your interpretation of burying the hatchet, etc., for about four years seemed to involve disaffected right-wingers (always a relative term, of course) in the party cold-shouldering the properly-elected party leader, publicly dissing him, concertedly using vile antisemitism slurs against him and refusing to serve in his shadow cabinet. Then, when you finally get rid of him (by doing everything necessary to make sure we lose an election, in concert with the Tories and the media) and get your own man in, appeal for unity and the burying of the hatchet. I ask you, which of those two sides demonstrates lack of principle? Fine to bury the hatchet as long as you've got your man in there first, eh?

And chickens always come home to roost. Now that we've got our safe pair of hands installed, just look at how bloody useless he is. So much for let's ditch principle and get Boris out at any cost.


20 Jan 21 - 10:28 AM (#4088937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Oh.. The Labour Party.. I remember them...

Don't hear much about 'em anymore.. since boris became his own most effective opposition...


20 Jan 21 - 11:34 AM (#4088946)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

He'll get away with it. Without a strong opposition leader (wot we have assuredly not got) he'll get in again.


20 Jan 21 - 11:48 AM (#4088948)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I got behind Corbyn. I voted for Becky but supported Keir for a while. I have since left the Labour party but that was to do with the pandering to the right wing Israeli lobby rather than the leadership. Maybe the two are tied though? Is Starmer a right wing plant? I doubt it but his actions so far do not bode well.


20 Jan 21 - 11:58 AM (#4088950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Well there you go, Steve, twisting words again. The old Jim Carroll tactic - when you have no answer, twist and re-interpret the words of your opponent to make them mean what you want them to mean, and then argue against your own interpretation. I really thought you were a better man than that. Shameful.

So, to respond to your interpretation of what I’ve actually been advocating...

1. Most importantly - I’m not a Member of the Labour Party, nor am I a ‘disaffected right-winger’. I would describe myself as being of the centre-left.

2. I didn’t do anything to ‘finally get rid of him’, nor to ‘get my own man in. In view of (1), how could I?

3) Despite my own feelings that he was not a good Leader, but because he was the democratically-elected Leader, I supported Corbyn throughout his Leadership, spoke up for him and defended him against those who did ‘everything necessary to make sure we lose an election, in concert with the Tories and their media’. It was my stated belief during that time too that there should be an end to division and a move to unity in the party in order to return a desperately-needed Labour government. I voted Labour in each GE during Corbyn’s reign. A check of my posts on this forum during the time of the election will confirm.

4) I don’t believe that the current incumbent is a great leader, but he is the democratically-elected Leader and, exactly as I did during Corbyn’s time as Leader, I will support The Labour Party on the basis that the Party is bigger than any individual or group of individuals, and that removing the worst Tory government in my lifetime is far more important than fighting internal wars. And no matter who the next Leader might be, I will continue with that principle. Party First and Foremost.

5. I really couldn’t care less about your internal, eternal, puerile battles of ideology - fighting your own party won’t get rid of the ideology of Conservatism, only a united Labour Party, working for the good of those who need it the most, will do that.

Now have fun twisting that lot.


20 Jan 21 - 01:13 PM (#4088958)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It's you twisting, or not reading properly, John. The whole of the main paragraph in the post that's got your gander up is directed at members of the Labour Party (do check that out - it's pretty explicit in the post). As you are not one, I fail to see why you appear to take what I said personally. It doesn't apply to you. But you have expressed anti-Corbyn sentiments on a number of occasions. I don't agree with that, I gave my reasons and I told you about what I think could be a good read. By the way, my use of the term "right-wingers" with reference to people in the Labour Party who jumped on the anti-Corbyn bandwagon is relative, something else I made clear in the post.

Dave, I decided not to leave the party, though many of us lefties have done so. It was a close call. I find it pretty distressing to see how things are currently going. Keir Starmer is going to be easy meat for the Tories when the chips are down at the next election, and the sheer absolute blunder of his trying to sideline Corbyn over that cobbled-together antisemitism report will come back to bite him on the arse. My God, does he know how to do the splits.


21 Jan 21 - 09:41 AM (#4089083)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Another Brexit benefit!

Britons buying from EU site face import duties


21 Jan 21 - 10:26 AM (#4089099)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm Backing Britain.. [1968]

Britain ain't Backing Me.. [2021]


21 Jan 21 - 11:26 AM (#4089110)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Another Brexit benefit!
Britons buying from EU site face import duties


The two examples given both say they were unaware that they weren't buying from a UK firm. So they could just as easily be buying from USA or China, where import duties and VAT could also be charged. Peoples buying choices are hardly the fault of Brexit, or of the UK government.


21 Jan 21 - 11:41 AM (#4089113)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Earlier this month I placed an order with a company in Northern Ireland.

15 days ago I received a message to say the goods had been sent to the distribution company, a large household name.

For the past 3 days I have been chasing the goods. I am informed today that no goods whatsoever are being forwarded to the UK because of "Brexit"

I pity the poor sod in the distribution centre having to field call like mine asking where our goods are and when we can expect delivery.

He had absolutely no idea of what was happening and muttered vague dates like middle of February, middle of March as prospective dates.


21 Jan 21 - 11:56 AM (#4089116)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - I take it from your smug off-handed dismissal of the problems now faced by Brits buying from EU;
that you either rarely, or never, buy goods direct from Europe,
or are so well off you don't care about drastically increased import charges...???

Souds about right for ardent tory brexiteers...


21 Jan 21 - 12:02 PM (#4089117)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"souds"..

the "n" has been held up in transit by post brexit red tape..
I could have sworn I was getting it from a UK spellchecker...


21 Jan 21 - 12:26 PM (#4089119)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Nigel, that is a bit of an odd argument. Do you deny we are now charged customs for goods from more places than we were before? That is the "Brexit benefit" I referred to.


21 Jan 21 - 12:41 PM (#4089121)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I mentioned this to my sister, pointing out that a lot of Amazon goods come via their warehouses on 5he Republic or Germany. She send this note in replay:

Amazon FBA Brexit Bombshell 1 – EFN

EFN allows you to fulfil orders from any Amazon European marketplace, while you ship your goods to Amazon’s fulfilment centres in just one country such as the UK.

From the 1st of January 2020 goods in Amazon’s UK fulfilment centres will no longer be used to fulfil orders in Europe. Effectively your sales opportunity from selling on Amazon UK dropped from 446 million EU consumers to 66 million brits.

Amazon FBA Brexit Bombshell 2 – Pan-European FBA

Currently, with Pan-European FBA, when you send your products to fulfilment centres in the UK, Amazon distribute them for storage across Europe. Your products become Prime eligible and visible to millions of customers, with faster delivery while you pay only UK local fulfilment fees.

This will end for stock in Amazon UK warehouses on the 1st of January 2021. However if you send stock to an Amazon warehouse in Europe then it will still be distributed to other European warehouse, with the exception that it won’t be sent back to the UK.


21 Jan 21 - 12:56 PM (#4089122)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So what's the future prospects now for all the affordable CDs, music equipment, & misc. products
I depend on buying frequently, shipped free from Amazon EU S.a.r.L....???????


22 Jan 21 - 04:29 AM (#4089173)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel, that is a bit of an odd argument. Do you deny we are now charged customs for goods from more places than we were before? That is the "Brexit benefit" I referred to.
I don't deny that. And that it also applies to residents of the EU buying from UK.
But your link, which was based on two people who didn't even know where they were buying from hardly helps in putting forward a valid point.

As for pfr's comment:
Nigel - I take it from your smug off-handed dismissal of the problems now faced by Brits buying from EU; that you either rarely, or never, buy goods direct from Europe, or are so well off you don't care about drastically increased import charges...???
Souds about right for ardent tory brexiteers...


It doesn't even merit a considered reply.


22 Jan 21 - 05:19 AM (#4089179)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

But your link, which was based on two people who didn't even know where they were buying from hardly helps in putting forward a valid point.

Well, we will leave it at this, but the point is the link talked about the fact the charges exist. The extent to which these people understood it was not, for me, the salient point. That the charges are now incurred is.


22 Jan 21 - 05:32 AM (#4089181)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Really, I should never say I will 'leave it at that' until I am sure I have thought for at least five more minutes. After this, I really will leave it.

Firstly, I am pleased, Nigel, that you acknowledge every citizen in the UK may now be liable for customs charges for goods from the EU, when they were not before, and that this is an additional cost to them entirely due to Brexit.

Secondly, I take no pleasure that citizens of the EU also face customs duties. In fact, it is worse than that, because it means that given a choice between equivalent products from the UK and the EU the UK version will be more expensive due to the customs charges. Consequently, it is likely to reduce UK sales. That is not something to be pleased about.

Now I really will leave it!


22 Jan 21 - 07:50 AM (#4089208)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yebbut we got are cuntry back...


22 Jan 21 - 08:02 AM (#4089210)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Frum th right POV you hafta TAKE yur cuntree back , as in steal.


22 Jan 21 - 10:36 AM (#4089244)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"It doesn't even merit a considered reply."

Nigel yesterday you were just being smugly off-handed.

Today you have raised your disregard for the financial plight of other UK citizens
to rees-mogg levels of imperious contemptemtuous denial of reality...

The facts are you write here as though you do not care about new increased import charges from the EU.
You refuse to deny that it is because this does not effect you personally..

Is it not fair to suggest you never buy direct from Europe,
or you are so well off you can easily absorb these new extra costs...???

Whatever, your typical tory brexiteer supercilious attitude
and refusal to reply in reasonable forum debate speaks for itself...


22 Jan 21 - 10:50 AM (#4089250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel yesterday you were just being smugly off-handed.
Today you have raised your disregard for the financial plight of other UK citizens to rees-mogg levels of imperious contemptemtuous denial of reality...

I don't know how you reach that conclusion. I have always accepted that there will be costs involved in Brexit. The fact that, for the two persons discussed in The Guardian I take the view caveat emptor in no way means that I am being contemptuous. Nor am I denying reality.

The facts are you write here as though you do not care about new increased import charges from the EU.

"Increased import charges"? were there import charges for purchases from EU before? (apart from dutiable goods such as alcohol & tobacco)
You refuse to deny that it is because this does not effect you personally..
Typical failure to understand. Not denying something is not the same as accepting it as true.

Is it not fair to suggest you never buy direct from Europe,
or you are so well off you can easily absorb these new extra costs...???

No, it is not. I buy from EU and from worldwide, and pay any necessary customs/VAT as required. Before buying I check what the total cost is likely to be. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it!

Whatever, your typical tory brexiteer supercilious attitude
and refusal to reply in reasonable forum debate speaks for itself...


I only declined to respond because your post (as this time) was full of unwarranted assumptions.


22 Jan 21 - 11:04 AM (#4089261)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

"Increased import charges"? were there import charges for purchases from EU before?

There were no customs charges from the EU, Nigel, as you well know. The customs charges now being applied are therefore an increase.


22 Jan 21 - 11:05 AM (#4089263)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - thanks for the reply.
Even if it is mostly pedantic waffly deflection..

I thought of suggesting ardent brexiteers are happy to accept a high increase from zero import charges from the EU,
on regaining sovereignty,
because it is their patriotic duty..

Well I thought nah.. surely our Nige can't be that bonkers blinded by brexit ideology...???


22 Jan 21 - 12:05 PM (#4089280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

No point, PFR. Many people know that their vote for brexit was a mistake but it is human nature not to admit errors. Even if Nigel ever thought he was wrong he would never admit it on here. Far better just to take the piss :-)


22 Jan 21 - 12:19 PM (#4089287)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

DtG - what I enjoy about smug condescending folk,
is that while in their own heads they are convinced they are being so clever and superior;
here in the outside world of reality,
we just see them as smarmy out of touch arses...

But nonetheless, mudcatters are mainly good tolerant folks who welcome and celebrate diversity of personalities...

I can be friendly with just about most people..

You could say I'm an equal opportunities piss taker...


23 Jan 21 - 02:57 AM (#4089407)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

PFR - :-D


23 Jan 21 - 02:57 AM (#4089408)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and 800!


23 Jan 21 - 03:13 AM (#4089413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

The VAT implications of an EU based business selling to the UK now are VAT consultant territory, unbelievably complicated.


23 Jan 21 - 03:43 AM (#4089414)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And the VAT Consultants and Shipping-Brokers are clueless too. Mrs Backwoodsperson is the Logistics/Operations Manager for one of the UK production sites of a US-owned business with multiple locations in the EU and the UK. She currently has thirty-plus shipments to the EU held up at UK ports, Groupage warehouses, and her own warehouses, because no-one is able to determine what documentation is needed, or they are unable to obtain it. Add to that the fact that hauliers are refusing to collect loads because they don’t want their trucks to get ‘stuck’, and you have an almighty - and very expensive - fuck up. Many thousands of pounds of demurrage charges already, and we’re only three weeks in.

No wonder her employers are now considering whether to pull out of the UK altogether, and concentrate their production in the EU.


23 Jan 21 - 04:41 AM (#4089418)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

I imagine that most of the confusion is down to the fact that terms were only agreed days before we left. As I have said before, both sides are to blame for that.

Hopefully things will settle down soon.


23 Jan 21 - 04:43 AM (#4089421)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

But hey, we ‘Took are cuntry back’ and Nigs got his blue passport, so all’s well with the world, innit? Can't wait for those ‘sunlit uplands’ the Wide-Mouthed Frog and his nitwit followers promised us.


23 Jan 21 - 04:52 AM (#4089423)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Our VAT consultant is not clueless at all, how can you generalise?


23 Jan 21 - 07:09 AM (#4089447)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’ll take your word on that, Bonz - I’ve been retired from the Accounting world for nine years, so I’m out of touch and only have hearsay from my former international colleagues to go by.

But, of course, I was talking more specifically about the problems of logistics, movement of goods, etc. There’s no doubt that, prior to the end of December, and despite that fat buffoon with no dress-sense and the world’s worst haircut telling businesses to ‘prepare for Brexit’, there was little or no information available for businesses to study in order to ‘prepare’ themselves.

In the same way that businesses are struggling to export goods to EU countries, they are also suffering from the same kind of difficulties importing. My wife’s company brings a great deal of raw material in from the EU - a straightforward matter pre-31/12/21 - but, since then her suppliers have managed to get just one shipment across. Like U.K. hauliers, their EU counterparts are having the same problems with documentation and hauliers being reluctant to take the work on for fear of their trucks getting ‘stuck’ here and unable to get back. Fortunately, she foresaw the coming fuck-up, and stockpiled material in the last quarter of 2020, but that’s being used and needs to be replenished - no sign of that happening short-term.

But never mind, the cabal of immensely wealthy individuals who pull the Tory strings and drove the BrexShit campaign can rest easy, knowing their tax-dodging can continue unhindered....


23 Jan 21 - 07:15 AM (#4089449)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And that should have been 31/12/20 of course!


23 Jan 21 - 07:17 AM (#4089450)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

stockpiled material in the last quarter of 2020

As did many others. Stockpiling is a great way of buying time while the problems are sorted, and with luck they get sorted out in time to restore a normal flow before the stockpile runs out. But is it far from certain.

That may be why haven't had too many supply problems yet. If the problems are sorted, we won't either. But if they are not, the issues will really start to bite once the stockpiles are used up.


23 Jan 21 - 07:46 AM (#4089459)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And of course, stockpiling comes at a cost, DMcG - not least storage costs. My wife is having to store materials in hired warehousing because her own warehouses can’t cope with it, and of course moving materials between hired warehousing and the production facility has to be paid for too.


23 Jan 21 - 07:59 AM (#4089462)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Of course, stockpiling of RM runs directly contrary to her company’s ‘Just In Time’ operating culture, and it has to be paid for - tying up large amounts of cash in inventory. So it’s a multiple-whammy. Not good for business at all.


23 Jan 21 - 09:27 AM (#4089475)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

The distribution company who have my goods at the moment have had those goods since the 6th January.

From my conversation with a chap there this week nothing has left their facilities bound for the UK and you may remember I placed my order with a company in Northern Ireland.

Utterly shambolic, and I have to say, typical of this governments handling of matters.


23 Jan 21 - 09:32 AM (#4089476)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Just as an aside has anyone else noticed that although we Brits are limited to one thread the Americans at the moment have at least four.

Just saying like ............ :-0


23 Jan 21 - 09:49 AM (#4089478)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Yes, there are many costs connected with stockpiling that I didn't go into: my comments was all about supplying the market. As you say, it ties up company money and, if they have to hire additional warehouses, has direct costs as well.

My best guess is that Just-in-Time systems will have to change to 'small stockpile' systems. Whatever system you use, you need the 'demand' to equal the 'supply'.   So conceptually you always have a supply, a buffer area to smooth out variation and a demand that takes things out of the buffer. Just-in-Time is about making the buffer as close to zero as possible. I suspect that for the foreseeable future we will have to have lots of 'non-empty' buffers to smooth out delivery issues. Which, as you say ties up company money and may incur additional warehousing costs.


23 Jan 21 - 10:26 AM (#4089484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Just a quick one with no links - wife is insisting I get on with something..

BBC news items over last couple of days about container hire costs
rocket inflating by thousands of £££;
and UK businesses contemplating burning goods held up in Europe,
as less financial loss than continued increasing storage expenses...


23 Jan 21 - 01:11 PM (#4089528)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

There is an article in the press today were a cheese supplier in Cheshire states he has to provide a health certificate costing £180 on all his exports to the EU.

Those include his personal packs of cheese which would normally retail about £25- 30.

Guess what happens next!

Cheese

I doubt if anyone who actually voted for Brexit conceived this would happen but some of us who voted remain suggested it may well do so.


23 Jan 21 - 02:17 PM (#4089545)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

This is a good one!

Set up shop in EU


23 Jan 21 - 03:04 PM (#4089556)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Pfr.The problem with container prices mainly relates to non EU imports and is mostly due to covid related problems. Too many empty containers here resulting in a shortage of containers available to load abroad.


23 Jan 21 - 04:43 PM (#4089577)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Rain Dog - fair enough..

I mentioned I was posting in a hurry, so couldn't verify by googling for links,
on what I thought I remembered from the news..

.. consider my botty spanked for spreading inaccuracies...


23 Jan 21 - 06:02 PM (#4089597)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

'I doubt if anyone who actually voted for Brexit conceived this would happen but some of us who voted remain suggested it may well do so.'

Seriously Raggytash?


24 Jan 21 - 03:22 AM (#4089647)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I'm sure Raggytash will answer for himself, Rain Dog, but it you follow the arguments about Brexit then yes, seriously. Any mention of the adverse effects of Brexit have been jumped on by Brexiteers in politics, the press and even here on Mudcat as "project fear". Of course now they are saying they always expected some disruption. But that is not how it was sold or told. Nor has that disruption or the cost ever been quantified. I may have said "I doubt that anyone who voted for Brexit was informed that this may happen by the powers that be" but the spirit of Raggytash's comment is both serious and accurate.


24 Jan 21 - 04:13 AM (#4089653)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

But that is not how it was sold or told.

Quite. I did spend around five minutes looking for any occasion when any of the Brexit supporters who are here or are no longer with us said there would be such disruption, but really it is not worth the effort; far too many posts to plough through.

From memory, all I can recall from before, say, the Dec 2019 election is an agreement there may be some short term disruption. Not 'will be', mind, but 'may be'. Also that this would last for an unspecified 'short term'. I mention that because charges due to customs fees are not short term under any sensible definition: they will be retained unless there are specific negotiations to eliminate that: setting up something like a single market, for instance.


24 Jan 21 - 04:32 AM (#4089657)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Also that this would last for an unspecified 'short term'.

I should have given an honourable mention to Keith there, who was prepared to say when he said "short term", he meant "up to six months."


24 Jan 21 - 04:41 AM (#4089658)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

As predicted, food prices moving.
In my local supermarket bread & yoghurt up. Short shelf life.
Brie, all the way from la Belle France not gone up yet. But it has a long shelf life & there are warehouses in the UK. Watch this space.

Yea, Yea. Natural inflation and COVID can be blamed. They will be, it hides the Brexshit contribution.


24 Jan 21 - 08:07 AM (#4089681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Here ya go - the chickens are coming home to roost.


24 Jan 21 - 09:29 AM (#4089696)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Yes seriously Rain Dog.

Many of us remainers were suggesting that post brexit costs and administration would escalate to a point were some firms would no longer be viable.

We suggested that jobs would be exported and that unemployment in the UK would rocket.

I think that what we are seeing at the moment is merely the tip of the iceberg.

I recall posting on one occasion that one of my insurance underwriters had already transferred some of their operation to the EU in anticipation of excessive red tape here. I was told at the time I was talking nonsense, despite having quoted from a letter of explanation from the company detailing why they had moved.

So yes seriously.


24 Jan 21 - 01:06 PM (#4089726)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Great to see we ‘Took are cuntry back’, and we’re benefitting from the ‘sunlit uplands’ the Brexiteers promised us...the government are now recommending U.K. businesses to set up in the EU.

You really couldn’t make this lunacy up, could you?


24 Jan 21 - 01:44 PM (#4089731)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

And, Backwoodsman, they are in effect saying drop any other investment plans you have and spend you own money to overcome the limitations of this deal we have agreed. If you don't have the resources, or it doesn't work out, we guess you just aren't working hard enough to resolve the issues.


25 Jan 21 - 09:14 AM (#4089817)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

One of the undeniable benefits of brexit, courtesy of the Daily Mash. I'm sure that Nigel will be enthusiastically applauding in agreement when he reads it:

SUPERMARKETS are suffering fresh food shortages. So that’s another benefit of Brexit. Leave voter Steve Malley explains the dangers of fresh fruit and veg.

You could stab yourself

Opening a tin? Safe. But unlike baked beans or Big Soup, fresh vegetables frequently need to be cut up. One slip slicing a carrot and you’ve put a knife through a major artery. In your panic you might then trip and stab yourself in the brain. Is it worth it just to eat a la-di-da courgette?

You’re exposing yourself to deadly acid

Fruit is rammed with dangerous citric acid. That can’t be safe. Remainers might complain about not being able to get fresh grapefruit, but should you listen to these idiots when they’re pretty much taking a swig from a car battery?

We didn’t evolve to eat salad

Humans only evolved hands to carry spears. That’s science. If we’d been intended to eat plants and grass we’d have hooves and be covered in wool like sheep. That’s not just my opinion, it’s the view of a great British hero you might have heard of – Charles Darwin.

Weakness, fainting and coma

Fruit and vegetables contain almost no nutrients compared to superfoods like sausages. If there’s more than a couple a week in your diet, you’ll gradually grow weaker and your teeth will fall out before you faint and slip into a coma. That’s your choice, but I have to be more responsible because I’m an HGV driver.

They’re a choking hazard

There’s no danger of choking on traditional British foods like beef broth and Angel Delight. By contrast, look at the tough, leathery skin of a pear or grape. You may as well be eating a bag of washers.

Food hygiene

You don’t get more hygienic than fresh out of the tin. However, fresh fruit and veg is grown in fields where mice and birds can shit on them. You wouldn’t get a seagull to crap on your bacon sandwich, so why take the risk with fruit and veg? We’re better off without.


27 Jan 21 - 04:57 AM (#4090135)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Boris Johnson salary =143,789
Fully qualified nurses start on salaries of £24,214
As of 1 October , the salary for a student nurse on 36 weeks placement stood at €15,056, according to the INMO. This works out at almost €11 per hour.


27 Jan 21 - 07:56 AM (#4090158)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

And your point is?


27 Jan 21 - 10:22 AM (#4090182)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

my point, fairly obvious.
nurses are doing a good job but not getting paid enough
Capitalism works on the basis of supply and demand, we have empty field hospitals and not enough nurses to work in them , pay them more. WE MIGHT SOLVE THE SHORTAGE OF NURSES
Boris Johnson however is not doing a good job and getting paid too much in comparison
Raggytash , do you think the nurses are doing a good job and do you think Johnson is doing a good job., and deserves to be paid more than nurses
Raggytash, are you one of those people that think giving the nurses a clap is sufficient.


27 Jan 21 - 10:36 AM (#4090185)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - so how many nurses have you given the clap...???


27 Jan 21 - 10:43 AM (#4090188)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Yes I do think a Prime Minister should be paid more than a nurse.


27 Jan 21 - 10:50 AM (#4090189)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

All public service workers need to be paid more,
and the public sector needs to be expanded to realistic effective levels.

This should be regarded as an apolitical pragmatic priority for any Govt running Britain.

But we know it will never happen under tory ideological rule...


27 Jan 21 - 10:55 AM (#4090190)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Consider how many necessary public sector real jobs could be created
with all the public money being frittered away wasted on furlough schemes,
temporarily propping up doomed private companies...???


27 Jan 21 - 11:01 AM (#4090191)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I think Nurse Ratched should be paid more than the current Prime Minister. And has more heart.


27 Jan 21 - 03:36 PM (#4090234)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

Consider how many necessary public sector real jobs could be created
with all the public money being frittered away wasted on furlough schemes,
temporarily propping up doomed private companies...???


As important as medics, educators and the emergency services are, don't put down people who actually make things that people need? Of course, the public sector jobs you are hoping to create could be yet more bureaucrats to deal with the long line of unemployed workers from the manufacturing sector that you seem to want to destroy.

DC


27 Jan 21 - 03:45 PM (#4090235)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Doug - eh...?????????

Putting down...?????


Want to destroy...??????


.. oh I get it.. you've made up something in your own mind,
which you seem to have convinced yourself
was my intended meaning..

Then responded as though I'd actually written it..

I understand now..

Nah Doug, you got all that wrong...


27 Jan 21 - 03:57 PM (#4090236)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

If you say that I have got it wrong, then maybe so but the idea of

... public money being frittered away wasted on furlough schemes...

suggests to me that you disapprove of efforts being made to preserve jobs in the private sector.

DC


27 Jan 21 - 04:15 PM (#4090238)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Doug - ok, seriously..

A well-placed qualifying "all" or "some" would have made that clearer, I admit.

Though as I often write quickly between and during chores,
I do tend to think in terms of essential principles rather than specifics..

Sometimes perhaps a little too over generalised...???

But usually I know when I'm doing that for deliberate polemical effect.

However the point still stands that furlough billions from the tories' amazing magic money tree forest could, in some cases,
be better used...


28 Jan 21 - 03:09 AM (#4090306)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Raggytash please read my post again.
I see that there are not enough nurses solution give them a pay rise.
I also see Boris Johnson has not done his job with competence, I think he is over paid in comparison to nurses.
The question of whether any prime minster should be paid more than nurses, that is a completely different question ,and you know that, that too is debatable considering that the civil service make a lot of decisions and are permanent whilst prime minsters come and go, but that was not being proposed by me.
that is a slightly different subject
Raggytash, do you seriously think Johnson is doing a better and more important job than the nurses.
Do you also think that in these present times, the job of this prime minster based on his lack of achievement with brexit and his inept handling of covid, means he deserves such a huge plus in salary compared to a nurse.


28 Jan 21 - 04:57 AM (#4090308)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Do you also think that in these present times, the job of this prime minster based on his lack of achievement with brexit and his inept handling of covid, means he deserves such a huge plus in salary compared to a nurse.

Yes!

Someone, at a pay grade above that of the nurses, needs to ensure that nurses are available at every hospital, and that the flow of nurses to different hospitals is maintained.

Someone else needs to ensure that the government coffers have sufficient money to pay the nurses.

Someone needs to be able to obtain PPE and vaccines in a time of global shortage. They also need to be able to access government (our) funds to pay for these things.
In order to have the funds to buy PPE & vaccines the country needs to have a continuing and effective treasury/economy.

The Left are happy to blame everything on Boris, saying that it is all his responsibility. If the responsibility is his, then the pay should be commensurate with that level of responsibility.


28 Jan 21 - 05:18 AM (#4090313)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Absolutely cracking article in the Independent on Boris and Covid deaths

Starts with

The prime minister is obviously too sad and grief stricken about the Covid death toll to face the consequences of his government’s mishandling of the pandemic

Which should give a measure of the tone :-)


28 Jan 21 - 06:42 AM (#4090322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I would agree, Nigel, that someone with all those responsibilities should be well paid.

But there was an interesting article in the Telegraph that is related to this. It is behind a paywall so you may mot be able to read the full thing, but here is an important paragraph:

This is not a product of one government’s incompetence. It reflects deep-seated changes in the way state power is conceived and organised – by political parties of left and right, not just in Britain but in many other “advanced” economies. A system built around dispersing responsibility, accountability and control is, unsurprisingly, irresponsible, unaccountable, and not in control of its fate.

Most of the things you refer to, Nigel, have been delegated, with the result that the Government says the PPE problems were not theirs, they were PH(E) failures, and so on.

I would say the government does merit those salaries if it is responsible for the things you mention (and others). If, however, it delegates all responsibility it does not.


28 Jan 21 - 09:45 AM (#4090340)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Let's just say Boris and tory ministers
are lucky they are not remunerated only by performance related salaries..

.. unless we live in a warped universe where negligently killing higher numbers of British citizens
results in more lucrative commissions and pay bonuses...!!!???


28 Jan 21 - 11:52 AM (#4090360)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Oh I don't know Punkfolkrocker, just think of the cash savings of not having to pay pensions in the future to 100,000 people and the monies saved by the NHS of not having to treat 100,000 people in the future.


28 Jan 21 - 11:55 AM (#4090362)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Raggy - That's no joke..
A year ago I was cynically convinced tories had started doing those maths...!!!


31 Jan 21 - 07:16 AM (#4090803)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Does anyone have any info on a brexit customs mix up, is what i found correct
A key U.K. government customs system has been overwhelmed within weeks of Brexit and threatens to trigger more disruption as freight traffic increases.

Exporters say they are struggling to acquire transit documents, which allow goods to enter the European Union without delay, because of a shortage of agents with the authority to issue them.


31 Jan 21 - 07:56 AM (#4090808)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

It’s correct, there are major problems with both import and export documentation and customs. Some hauliers are now refusing to even pick loads up from customers until all documentation has been submitted to them which, for a number of reasons, is difficult, even impossible in some circumstances.

Shipping Agents are overwhelmed, the HMRC system is overloaded, close to overwhelmed. Customers are playing holy fuck. My wife is the Logistics Operations Manager for the U.K. division of a world-wide petro-chemical company with numerous processing plants in the EU, and they have managed to get three out of around forty shipments across since the 4th January. She’s tearing her hair out, and says that Leave-voters should all be lined up against a wall and machine-gunned.

The dozy buggers didn’t put any of this shit on their big red f***ing bus, did they? All we heard about was ‘sunlit uplands’, ‘take are cuntry back’, and blue passports.


02 Feb 21 - 11:18 AM (#4091123)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Adam Payne reported from live from the House of Parliament:

A penny-drop moment, as Gove admits “there are a number of issues that I would not describe as a teething problems. They are significant issues which bear on the lives of people...”. He calls on GB-NI grace periods (doesn’t say which) to be extended to avoid shortages of goods.
12:59 PM · Feb 2, 2021


Here is the relevant Hansard section:

Michael Gove

My right hon. Friend is right that the problem needs to be addressed both in the short and in the medium to long term. In the short term, there are a number of issues that I would not describe as teething problems; they are significant issues that bear on the lives of people in Northern Ireland, which do need to be resolved. We need to make sure that grace periods are extended. We need to make sure that supermarkets and other traders can continue—as they are at the moment—to be able to supply consumers with the goods that they need. There are a number of specific issues and they extend, as I mentioned earlier, to everything from pet transport to the provision of plants and seeds to gardens in Northern Ireland. The daily life of our fellow citizens does need to be protected and we must deal with all those questions. In the medium to long term, it is important that we take all the steps required to ensure that citizens in Northern Ireland recognise that they are an integral part of the UK and that their daily lives and the way in which this Parliament works reflect that fully.


03 Feb 21 - 04:00 AM (#4091212)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Yes!

Someone, at a pay grade above that of the nurses, needs to ensure that nurses are available at every hospital, and that the flow of nurses to different hospitals is maintained.

Someone else needs to ensure that the government coffers have sufficient money to pay the nurses.
quote above nigel parsons
Boris Johnson has failed in his job, there is a shortage of nurses and empty field hospitals, in my opinion on merit he does not deserve to be paid substantially more than a nurse


07 Mar 21 - 12:13 AM (#4096418)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

Nigel Farage - "Why I'm standing down as leader"


07 Mar 21 - 03:22 AM (#4096426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

That was a nasty trick, Robo. Springing a close up of the man toad himself on us with no warning. Luckily I was too busy being sick to throw my tablet through the window.

Some warning about horror content next time please.


07 Mar 21 - 09:23 PM (#4096572)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

DtG: Just trying to be careful. As a fan of amphibions I was not aware of the horror content - beauty in the eye of the toad-holder, so to speak.


09 Mar 21 - 01:19 PM (#4096864)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

I can't believe how some threads are closed on here for no apparent reason - or at least far too prematurely. I was posting on the thread re the Royal Family whatsitabout at the moment and said nothing abusive to anyone or anything inflammatory. Then SRS closes the thread saying I was commenting on something I hadn't seen and leaves no way a reply can be made. I thought that was the height of bad manners and quite frankly an abuse of admin powers which I take it he/she has!!!! And the fact I didn't watch the interview itself is irrelevant. There has been nothing else on the news channels and media for the past 30 hours now. I have seen plenty enough to comment on it.


09 Mar 21 - 01:31 PM (#4096867)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I understand your frustration Allen but please do not sideline this particular thread otherwise this too may be closed.

Personally I couldn't give a flying **** about the topic you mention and do not wish to hear anything about it.


09 Mar 21 - 01:41 PM (#4096870)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Fair point Raggy. I have no wish to subvert any thread. Just felt I needed to say that out loud so to speak. Apologies.


09 Mar 21 - 01:43 PM (#4096872)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I went there hoping to correct a mishearing of Oprah that I made due to not having my hearing aids in...I suppose leaving my mistake there won't change the world...

(She said "...What!?" not "...Wow!")

The only political thing I currently have to say is good riddance to Piers Morgan!


09 Mar 21 - 02:34 PM (#4096880)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

The news about Piers Morgan really made my day.


09 Mar 21 - 05:21 PM (#4096899)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: WalkaboutsVerse

Positive discrimination for one group of people is negative discrimination for everyone else, & BAFTA are now discriminating for BAME & against English - content to do their bit in their NATIVE land.


09 Mar 21 - 05:57 PM (#4096903)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

WAV:
There is not a dichotomy between BAME and English.
Someone may be a member of both groups, or of just one, or of neither.


09 Mar 21 - 06:15 PM (#4096905)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

You really shouldn't have needed to be told that, WAV.


14 Mar 21 - 08:31 AM (#4097569)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I open the Observer digital edition this morning to see a young woman face down on the ground with two police officers on top of her, pinning her down to handcuff her. She was attending what had been a peaceful vigil in honour of Sarah Everard.

For Christ's sake.


14 Mar 21 - 10:06 AM (#4097588)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

The picture is indeed shocking, however, I have met some extremely violent women in my time and as we don't know what preceded this photograph I would not rush to make a judgement.


14 Mar 21 - 10:55 AM (#4097594)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

There's a video clip of the same incident on the Guardian website. The two officers on the woman were men. Take a look: it's very disturbing.


14 Mar 21 - 03:58 PM (#4097629)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i have encountered violent policeman and violent women, but more of the former


14 Mar 21 - 04:52 PM (#4097640)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

In this country we don't deal in summary execution by a policeman without trial and conviction in the street, no matter what past offences we've committed. Your reasoning is, frankly, fatally flawed.


22 Mar 21 - 02:11 PM (#4098761)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I seem to recall that Brexiteers maintained that the world would be our oyster once we had left the EU and we would develop vast new markets for our produce.

An article in the press today paints a somewhat different picture with the export of some produce down 98%.

Collapse of some exports


22 Mar 21 - 03:38 PM (#4098770)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Of course, the article paints the worst possible picture.
You have to read through to almost the end before you realise they're talking about an apparent 'blip' and that freight volumes were back to their normal levels since the start of February

And that: “A unique combination of factors, including stockpiling last year, Covid lockdowns across Europe and businesses adjusting to our new trading relationship, made it inevitable that exports to the EU would be lower this January than last,” said a spokesperson for the department (DEFRA).


22 Mar 21 - 04:15 PM (#4098777)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Spin it any way you want Nigel but food and drink exports dropped by almost 75%.

Now most of us except that circumstances are different this year but I suspect that few of us realised just how great the impact would be.

The Government, of course, will try to blame Covid or the firms involved for not being up to speed.

In fact they will blame anyone, except themselves of course.


22 Mar 21 - 05:24 PM (#4098785)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

You may not have noticed, I wasn't spinning it. I was quoting directly from the article that you linked to.


23 Mar 21 - 03:27 AM (#4098818)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes Nigel. It was spin and your first "quote" was not direct was it. You said freight volumes were back to normal. The article said overall freight volumes were back to their normal. You of all people should know that omitting the word "overall" makes a world of difference. Given that they had also reported that Overall figures now show that food and drink exports collapsed in January, plunging overall by 75.5% year on year. Down to £256m from £1bn. then I think it is very fair to say that you were trying to divert attention from that fact. Or, to give it another name, spinning.


23 Mar 21 - 04:45 AM (#4098829)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 14 Mar 21 - 04:52 PM

In this country we don't deal in summary execution by a policeman without trial and conviction in the street, no matter what past offences we've committed. Your reasoning is, frankly, fatally flawed."
who is this directed at


23 Mar 21 - 05:24 AM (#4098834)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I have a feeling that my post was left hanging among a bunch of deletions, Dick.


23 Mar 21 - 05:25 AM (#4098835)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

DtG:
Okay, if we're trying to avoid spin maybe we should avoid reading quotes from the Guardian. It hardly ever gives the whole picture.
The January fall in exports to EU was more than matched (in value, if not percentage terms) by a fall of imports from the EU (which they would describe as their exports to us):

Exports of goods, excluding non-monetary gold and other precious metals, fell by £5.3 billion (19.3%) in January 2021, because of a £5.6 billion (40.7%) fall in exports to the EU.

Imports of goods, excluding non-monetary gold and other precious metals, fell by £8.9 billion (21.6%) in January 2021, driven by a £6.6 billion (28.8%) fall in imports from the EU.

from The DNS
They also say: Trade has not been typical in recent months and, because of the practical challenges and temporary factors outlined in Section 3, we would encourage users to apply caution when making short-term comparisons of trade movements.

This makes the point I was making, with no spin applied from either side.


23 Mar 21 - 08:32 AM (#4098856)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

So Nigel, Imports to the UK have fallen, that would suggest that goods that I want to buy are not readily available.

Yet another failing by the government.

I know this on a personal level as goods I ordered back at the beginning of January are still stuck in the distributors in the EU.


23 Mar 21 - 10:45 AM (#4098884)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Well done, Nigel. No spin on those figures. Massive falls in imports and exports. We have yet to be convinced that this is a good thing.


23 Mar 21 - 11:05 AM (#4098887)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

One item specifically mentioned in Nigels link was a drop in the import of medicinal and pharmaceutical products.

That, I suspect, many people would find to be of deep concern.

Yet another failure of the government.


23 Mar 21 - 11:42 AM (#4098892)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Well it will be a few years before we will be able to tell if we are better off for having left. I remain to be convinced that we will be.

One consequence of leaving is that customs entry clerks are in demand. Companies here in Dover are poaching staff from each other. You could class that as a benefit of leaving.


23 Mar 21 - 11:51 AM (#4098897)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Yes Rain Dog, it will make a slight impact on the thousands of people who will lose their job.


23 Mar 21 - 12:02 PM (#4098901)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Well done, Nigel. No spin on those figures. Massive falls in imports and exports. We have yet to be convinced that this is a good thing.
As the DNS link makes clear, those massive falls were for January, and there were several contributory factors.


23 Mar 21 - 12:32 PM (#4098904)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Good old Nigel, still trying to polish a turd. And still failing dismally.


23 Mar 21 - 12:56 PM (#4098909)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Hey, BWM, at least he admits that there are massive falls! It's a start :-)


23 Mar 21 - 02:08 PM (#4098921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I dread having to prepare the first post brexit VAT return for a client company where all purchases are from France.


23 Mar 21 - 02:23 PM (#4098923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”I dread having to prepare the first post brexit VAT return for a client company where all purchases are from France.”

I’m so glad I retired from all that crap nine years ago. But Mrs Backwoodsperson is still working as the Logistics Operations Manager for the UK operation of a world-wide petrochemicals company with numerous processing plants in the EU, and considerable shipping between the UK and the EU, both import and export. She says that, despite the Tory propaganda that publications like the Daily Heil, the Torygraph, and the Deadly Express are trying to spread, the movement of goods between the UK and the EU is still a nightmare, and finding hauliers who are prepared to risk getting delayed by problems at the ports is very difficult. Demurrage on ‘stuck’ shipments has already cost her company a fortune, and there seems to no end to it in the short- to mid-term.


23 Mar 21 - 03:43 PM (#4098943)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

A lot of tax revenue is going to be lost during this transition phase.


24 Mar 21 - 05:30 PM (#4099117)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

New regulations are being introduced, it seems, to fly the Union Flag on all national buildings, with local governments encouraged to do so.

Can singing the national anthem or rule Britannia every morning in school assemblies be far distant?


24 Mar 21 - 05:32 PM (#4099118)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

sorry, all national *government* buildings.


24 Mar 21 - 06:20 PM (#4099121)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Not all gvt buildings. Northern Ireland exempt. Not Scotland though. Supposedly to strengthen the union. They really are stupid to a staggering degree. People who are unionists will be OK with the jackery but Yes leaning folk will just be irritated by it. You can't force people's identity.


25 Mar 21 - 04:11 AM (#4099174)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I agree Allan. In a few weeks time either the SNP will have a majority themselves, or be in an alliance with another independence-inclined group.   I do not see them flying the Union Flag over Holyrood. Nor do I see the Westminster Government can do a thing about it without increasing the support of independence.


25 Mar 21 - 07:48 AM (#4099202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Any think that the latest debacle about the EU and vaccine is yet another smokescreen to be added to the ever growing list of lies about the EU?

It's almost as if the brexiteers have realised what a disaster it is turning out to be and are looking for justification for their actions.


25 Mar 21 - 07:54 AM (#4099203)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I read about the flags on the front page of today's Telegraph:
The Union flag will be flown from UK government buildings every day after the rules around flag etiquette were rewritten by the Culture Secretary.
New guidance, which will apply from the summer, says all UK government buildings will be asked to fly the flag every day of the year. Currently, union flags are only flown on government buildings on set days.
For buildings with only one flagpole, the guidance says that "the Union Flag should be flown every day except on certain occasions when you may wish to fly other flags", such as the national flags of constituent nations of the UK.


The 'Political Correspondent" (Danielle Sheridan) went on to say:
The Union flag, which was created in its current form in 1801, embodies the emblems of England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland
Needless to say I've written a stroppy letter as Wales has no representation on the Union flag. - sloppy reporting.


25 Mar 21 - 12:26 PM (#4099236)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

I don't think the Holyrood Parliament would actually be included in the dictat about flying the union flag. It is UK gvt buildings which the instructions are for. So the likes of The Scotland Office and the new Queen Elizabeth House etc. The Holyrood Parliament is a Scottish Gvt building which fall outside the order.


27 Mar 21 - 08:15 AM (#4099497)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I refuse to agree to my local authority being forced to fly the flag as I am not a neo-nazi flag waving rabid nationalist. If any employees for my local authority obey the law, then they need to be ostracised by society.

On a less ironic note, even thought the above does reflect my feelings, my partner lived through the Soviet rule of Czechoslovakia, and families that failed to demonstrate fealty, for example by not flying the soviet flag from their balconies/windows, would be excluded from opportunities in society.

While I have no problem with being patriotic, and by that I mean living in a beautiful, and supposedly outward looking, safe and welcoming country, I despise the evils that are being carried out 'in the name of my country' and the assumption that if I do not stand side by side with these evils, I am somehow not patriotic.


27 Mar 21 - 09:38 AM (#4099508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"While I have no problem with being patriotic, and by that I mean living in a beautiful, and supposedly outward looking, safe and welcoming country, I despise the evils that are being carried out 'in the name of my country' and the assumption that if I do not stand side by side with these evils, I am somehow not patriotic."

Absolutely spot on.


27 Mar 21 - 09:43 AM (#4099511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I would refuse to fight for the UK.


31 Mar 21 - 03:04 AM (#4100057)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Today will be the last day that little Englander British migrants will who have refused to integrate into the local communities on mainland Europe and have not applied for or meet 'right to remain' status will be able to legally stay in continental Europe for the next 90 days.

To mirror what the bigots and xenophobes in the UK have been spouting for the last 5 years, surely the British economy cannot stand a flood of British Migrants returning to the UK and we should be able to cherry-pick those who the state deems 'most useful' and as such those who do not meet the points system as per the new Immigration Act would therefore render themselves stateless and should them have to seek settlement through the asylum process and be treated the same way as other asylum seekers are treated - and with the proposed new draconian rules - sorry, no sympathy from me, particularly as it seems that this group includes the leave voters living overseas.

The only people who I do feel sympathy for are any pro-Europeans who do want to integrate with whichever society they chose to live in - not existing, but those in the future and any European people who wish to integrate into UK society but are considered inferior by the hime office. (Wasn't there a doctrine in Europe in the 1930s and 40s and another up to the 60s in America that looked upon fellow humans as inferior or unworthy?).

It distresses me that I seem to be living in this kind of so-called regressive society which earlier generations fought and laid down their lives to oppose. But at the same time I feel a sense of perverse satisfaction that those who have been hoisted by their own petard are getting their come-uppance.

Here endeth getting my rant out of my system.


31 Mar 21 - 05:26 AM (#4100073)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

SPB - in the press and meedja, ‘Migrants’ seems only to refer to ‘damn foreigners’ coming into the UK. British people migrating to other countries are, apparently, ‘Ex-Pats’.

Funny how, in the warped minds of flag-wagging, forelock-tugging, grovelling ‘patriots’, ‘migrant’ is a one-way term of abuse, innit?


31 Mar 21 - 12:58 PM (#4100129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Today will be the last day that little Englander British migrants will who have refused to integrate into the local communities on mainland Europe and have not applied for or meet 'right to remain' status will be able to legally stay in continental Europe for the next 90 days"
Clarification, read above carefully, this applies to Mainland Europe, not the rep of ireland.
I agree with Backwoodsmans points, however it must not be assumed that all expats voted for brexit


31 Mar 21 - 01:38 PM (#4100135)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

900!


31 Mar 21 - 02:27 PM (#4100140)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Irregular noun:

I am an ex-pat.
You are a migrant.
He/she is an illegal immigrant.

I wonder if Spain is going to miss the English pubs and fish and chip shops in Costa Del Pequeña Inglaterra.


31 Mar 21 - 02:43 PM (#4100143)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

No doubt like so many countries, Spain will miss the income from tourists and expats. Of course certain places here in the UK will also miss the tourists buying Ye Olde Fish & Chips


01 Apr 21 - 10:20 AM (#4100269)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Yet another, albeit small, side effect of Brexit we were never told about.

A small company in Scotland manufacturing dog chews is to relocate it's operation to France after it became too difficult to obtain ways through the trade barriers now in place.


link


01 Apr 21 - 01:53 PM (#4100286)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

With the damage the government has done to exporters, particularly in the fishing industry, I am surprised that they haven't replaced cash welfare benefits with seafood vouchers.

If some people have severe allergic reactions, then that would be a saving on pensions and universal credit. (irony).


02 Apr 21 - 03:58 PM (#4100437)
Subject: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bonzo3legs

Today is the day of the Argentine veterans and fallen of the Falklands war. We stood by the Malvinas Memorial in Buenos Aires on April 2 1998, 2000,2002, 2005, 2007, 2008 & 2011. It was very sad to see the mothers crying for their lost sons.


02 Apr 21 - 07:13 PM (#4100463)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Steve Shaw

Look at a bloody map. Those islands belong to Argentina. The war was all about Maggie getting herself re-elected. So what if a few hundred Argie teenagers were slaughtered. We kept those benighted islands so that the UK can support the lives of a couple of thousand spoiled imperialistic brats.


02 Apr 21 - 08:15 PM (#4100471)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: McGrath of Harlow

When that all blew up lots of people in England were puzzled why Argentina should be claiming a bunch of islands off the coast of Scotland.

Maybe when the Scots go for independence the Westminster government, in the dying days of the United Kingdom, will detach the Shetlands from Scottish control, and set up a swap with Argentina so that the Falklands stay English, and the Shetlands go to Argentina.


02 Apr 21 - 08:45 PM (#4100481)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bill D

No matter one's opinion as to the reason for it all, it gave us a very moving song that says nothing about the politics of it.
Some friends of mine were in a pub in England, when the author, just back from The Falklands, sang it from his handwritten copy. They asked to record it, and he agreed.
Here's the words and tune.
http://www.traditionalmusic.co.uk/song-midis/Survivor_Leave.htm


02 Apr 21 - 09:26 PM (#4100494)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: McGrath of Harlow

Powerful song. Could as well be about survivors from either the Sheffield or the Belgrano. That's true for so many war songs, the best ones.


02 Apr 21 - 09:55 PM (#4100498)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bill D

Yeah.. could be about a number of different events. My friends' group was "The Boarding Party" and taking the lead on that song was Bob Hitchcock, originally from Suffolk. He did an excellent job.


03 Apr 21 - 04:36 AM (#4100535)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Saw mention of this in current issue of Private Eye.

More vets are needed now in order to provide documentation for exports to the EU.At this time there is a shortage of them in the UK. Hence the need to relax the rules on English language qualifications for those coming here to fill the vacancies.

Language requirements for veterinarians in the UK


03 Apr 21 - 04:58 AM (#4100541)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

You really couldn’t make it up, could you?


03 Apr 21 - 01:20 PM (#4100616)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Since Brexit good news is in short supply, here is some from a friend of mine. Admittedly, it only gets a small part of the haulage business back to where it was in the first place, but every little helps. As it seems to be due to the generosity (and self interest!) of France, I do not expect much praise from the leave side, but there you are.


Guess what. The French have given us Brits back the right to have access to their abnormal load roam permits, yay / phew. I played a key part in this win. I said to our diplomats exactly the right things to make it happen. I am ecstatic. Convoi Exceptionnel Ltd should be fêted in the mass media, but nobody cares enough about transport, so - not, hey-ho, it does mean I can still fit my pride-swollen head through a door... But this is a huge victory for British hauliers, and for many hundreds of UK industries, and a top achievement of my life. Must mention my colleague Caroline Ward, who did some excellent research, that was just as crucial to the win. Also the Heavy Transport Association, esp John Dyne, who is a brilliant and very insightful person. And I adore the French, for doing this. Entente cordiale it still is. Yay.


03 Apr 21 - 02:01 PM (#4100622)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Good and bad news.

Start of February Dover District Council announced they were looking to create 100 jobs as they expand the Dover Port Health Authority.

The Department of Transport and the local councils, seem set on creating an inland clearance facility to undertake border controls for up to 1200 trailers. They plan to build very, very near to the local village of Guston. While the jobs created by the building and running of the facility are very welcome, the disruption that will be caused to the villagers and local people will be less welcome.


03 Apr 21 - 08:19 PM (#4100667)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: mg

i always assumed that Eric Bogle had written it. He recorded it.


03 Apr 21 - 08:50 PM (#4100672)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bill D

?? I can't find any mention of Bogle's version. If he really did, I'd like to hear it.

Here's the original recording Survivor Leave. The Boarding Party


04 Apr 21 - 04:29 AM (#4100682)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Doug Chadwick

Look at a bloody map. Those islands belong to Argentina.

Look at a bloody map. Argentina belongs to those islands.


How about "Those islands belong to the islanders" ?

DC


04 Apr 21 - 05:20 AM (#4100683)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bonzo3legs

Possession is 10 points of the law. The glorious British Army gave the ill equiped, ill experienced Argentine army, navy and airforce a good biffing!!!


04 Apr 21 - 05:35 AM (#4100685)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Steve Shaw

The islanders are all Brits. We promise to defend 'em at hang the expense and we do their foreign dealings for them. They are scarcely independent, are they? We abandoned the islands in the late 18th century and swanned back in in the 19th when we were marauding around the world doing what we liked. So we set up a colony thousands of miles from the British Isles but very close to South America and then claim the right to self-determination for a bunch of Brits. We have steadfastly refused to negotiate this morally-dubious position time and time again. It's very difficult to make the moral argument that we should have dominion over territory so far from home and so close to others' home. Imagine an exclusively Chinese colony occupying Orkney or an exclusively Russian colony occupying the Isle Of Man...


04 Apr 21 - 05:58 AM (#4100687)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bonzo3legs

That's all irrelevant, the islands were occupied at the whim of a military dictator, whose foul regime dropped opponents from a helicopter into Rio De La Plata. The. ragtail army largely made up of conscripts who almost certainly didn't want to be there!!'


04 Apr 21 - 06:31 AM (#4100691)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Steve Shaw

I'm not really arguing about the rights or wrongs of 1982, am I? Though if you really want me to, I'd say it was like a lot of wars: two lots of bad guys...


04 Apr 21 - 06:39 AM (#4100695)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Steve Shaw

Incidentally, Bonzo, your hero Thatcher was supporting an even worse murderous dictator at the time, you know, that bloke in Chile...


04 Apr 21 - 07:08 AM (#4100697)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: BobL

Trouble is it wasn't just the Flaklands (a typo, but let it stand). If they'd been surrendered to Argentina, or even made over as part of a negotiated settlement, what would be the effect on Gibraltar? Or Northern Ireland?


04 Apr 21 - 07:28 AM (#4100698)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Bonzo3legs

Yes indeed. As with any country, for the most part the Argentines are lovely people, and we have always been made most welcome during our 7 visits there.


04 Apr 21 - 08:46 AM (#4100711)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: McGrath of Harlow

Little bits of territory with attachments to other countries in principle isn't a bad idea - if we had a little Spanish town in Sussex or. Norwegian enclave in Northumberland for example it could be quite a good arrangements. Being able to go for a trip abroad while staying local might be good, especially for a country confined to an island. I've never heard that the people of Newfoundland have any oroblem with having the French island of St Pierre and Miquelon on their doorstep.

The trouble is, much of the time it's all tied in with a history of foreign conquest and imperialism and si forth. Ii'd be good if it could be sorted out with a bit of territorial exchange, so a foreign enclave on the shores of Spain would be matched by an analogous Spanish enclave on the shores of England, and so forth.


04 Apr 21 - 09:40 AM (#4100722)
Subject: RE: BS: Day of the Argentine veterans
From: Big Al Whittle

I suppose by the same argument:-
Ireland belongs to England
England belongs to France

and Hitler was right

Poland belongs to Germany

The Canaries belong to Africa

and I'll have the bloke next door's car if he puts it on my drive again.


04 Apr 21 - 12:18 PM (#4100754)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

But say it wasn't the bloke next door. Say it was a bloke from 200 miles away who kept parking his car on your drive. You'd have more justification then, no?


04 Apr 21 - 03:26 PM (#4100767)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

If you choose to link up with the bloke from 200 miles away, then it has nothing to do with the bloke next door.

DC


04 Apr 21 - 05:11 PM (#4100779)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

?


04 Apr 21 - 06:05 PM (#4100785)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

If the residents of those islands choose to link up with the UK, rather than with Argentina, then that's up to them.

DC


04 Apr 21 - 07:34 PM (#4100798)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

A bit of undeliberate gerrymandering cures all, then, Doug...


05 Apr 21 - 02:25 PM (#4100882)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle

But say it wasn't the bloke next door. Say it was a bloke from 200 miles away who kept parking his car on your drive. You'd have more justification then, no?


Well no. Not in my view. That did actually happen to me. This bloke asked me if he could leave his van on my drive for a night - and it was still there three years later, rusting away.


Probably I should have been more warlike. But its one of my many failings.


05 Apr 21 - 02:31 PM (#4100884)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

At least he didn't come back, saying that because his van had been there for a long time it was now his drive...


05 Apr 21 - 05:12 PM (#4100908)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle

maybe not Steve, but it was a damned difficult negotiation and turned very unpleasant several times. My friends tended to get more outraged on my behalf than I was.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the Falklands. except maybe when narrow advantage is being pursued - (Like Galtieri's imperial ambitions and the man who thought he was entitled to have a nice drive, but I wasn't)). Then someone has to stand up to them.

Thatcher was being reckless with our defence commitments. Ultimately it was young soldiers who pulled her chestnuts out of the fire.....I don't think she choreographed the entire conflict. The result wasn't that certain, and anyway she wasn't that bright.

Like America has discovered with Trump - you can't really let someone totally irresponsible into the the top job. Argentina paid a heavy price for just that.
And as we discovered with Kinnock and Corbyn - it not the smartest thing to let a complete loser into the Leader of the Opposition job either.


05 Apr 21 - 05:24 PM (#4100910)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”And as we discovered with Kinnock and Corbyn - it not the smartest thing to let a complete loser into the Leader of the Opposition job either.”

It seems to be working for the Tories with Johnson though, Al.


05 Apr 21 - 06:04 PM (#4100915)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Johnson is no loser. He's killed tens of thousands of people via sheer incompetence. He's wasting 37 billion on a useless track and trace system. He's trashing the ordinary working people of this country. He's going to waste even more on a pointless passport system. Everything he's doing, he's doing in order to control us ever more. He lies in his teeth at every juncture. But he's nine points ahead in the polls. Believe me, he knows how not to be a loser. The real loser is Starmer, who is bloody useless, and he's leading into perdition millions of ordinary people in this country who at least deserve an opposition that they're not getting.


06 Apr 21 - 04:39 AM (#4100949)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle

Cheer up mate! You could be supporting Birmingham City.....


06 Apr 21 - 04:47 AM (#4100950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Johnson may not be a loser, but that pathetic waste of space is now making people fill in customs declarations for sending presents to family and friends in the EU. If that piece of trash wants to inflict unnecessary paperwork on decent people then this has to be down to Hillingdon Council employing a form filler at every post office in the UK instead of wasting tax payers money on education, adult social care, libraries, refuse collection, public health, child protection on a handful of people who live in Uxbridge and South Ruislip which is of no benefit or use whatsoever to the vast majority of the public in the UK. (End of ironic rant).


06 Apr 21 - 05:28 AM (#4100953)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

It is the EU who require the declaration for presents sent from the UK to people in the EU


06 Apr 21 - 12:05 PM (#4100999)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Customs declarations have to be completed for goods sent everywhere outside the EU. It therefore follows that, as a minority of the electorate sold the majority down the river by voting to Leave the EU, our membership of the EU Customs Union has ended, and we are required to follow the same rules that apply to all other countries outside the EU, which means that Customs Declarations must be completed.

Just another little thing that the Blond Buffoon, the Lying Scottish Viper, and The Wide-Mouthed Frog didn’t put on the side of their God-forsaken big red bus.


06 Apr 21 - 01:15 PM (#4101009)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle

Blond Bufoon = Boris
Frog = Farage
Lying Scottish Viper = ?


06 Apr 21 - 01:32 PM (#4101015)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

That lying, treacherous little scrotum, Gove.


06 Apr 21 - 02:42 PM (#4101026)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I have posted this before. All my own work. See if you can work out who is who, Al :-)

A fable.

Neither long ago nor in a galaxy far away the animal world was in harmony. The farm had grown large and unwieldy but still safe and strong. The sheep lived with the cattle and horses and worried not about the world. They were still hunted but the mighty animals, the lion and the wolf, were kept in check by the powerful elephant and strong wildebeest who had united with the sheep to ensure fairness to all.

However not all was well for the baboon wanted to lead the animals and the toad, with its bulging eyes, saw that the animals that no-one trusted could become powerful if they united against the farm. So the baboon, waving his arms and behaving like a fool, began to gather allies to their cause. The viper that had poisoned everything that it had touched became their friend and the drunken hyena, who used to feed on the weak, turned against the lion for he also wanted more power. They saw that the sheep loved to hear the donkeys bray and whatever the donkeys brayed became the mantra for the sheep. So they befriended the donkeys and told them to bray a song that half the sheep loved and half the sheep hated. This way the sheep became disunited and fought amongst themselves, ignoring the insidious manoeuvring of the unholy alliance.

“See how the farm steals your hard earned fodder,” brayed the donkeys.
“Remember how much better things were when the lion ruled you.” They sang across the land.

But the song that did the most harm was “Look at the rabbits. The farm let them in. They are eating all your grass and it is their fault that the lion eats your kin.” For this not only divided the sheep but also caused much resentment against the innocent rabbit.
So, the lion, the wolf, the elephant and the wildebeest sat together to determine what was to be done. None would lead, as they knew that whatever they did the baboon, the frog, the viper and the hyena would tell the donkeys to bray against them and the sheep would become more discontent. The mighty animals saw that the only way to silence to unholy ones was to ask the sheep who they wished to rule them. But they had not seen how divided the sheep had become and they did not understand that many would believe the donkeys over them. Half the sheep wanted to stay safe in the farm and the other half wanted the new life promised by the others. So they began to fight amongst themselves until, at last, none of them knew what was the truth and what was not.

The bald eagle and the bear, who had been bitter enemies in the past, joined with the voice of the donkeys as they wanted to rule the entire animal kingdom and saw that while the farm survived it would be in their way. The baboon and the frog knew that this was the perfect time for them to begin their reign so the sheep were forced to decide between living in thrall on the farm or trying to survive on their own in the jungle. They were evenly divided but one more sheep wanted to try the jungle than wanted to stay on the farm. So they were all forced out. The lion shook his head in disbelief and left. The frog grinned with his wide mouth. The baboon frolicked and the donkeys sang his praises while the sheep who wanted to stay in the farm wept.

Many ages later a new alliance formed. It is outside our fable to say what it will be. But the sheep survived. The lion still ate some. The old ones still went for mutton. The donkeys still brayed.
And the children were still sent to market…


08 Apr 21 - 07:04 AM (#4101344)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle - PM
Date: 06 Apr 21 - 04:39 AM

Cheer up mate! You could be supporting Birmingham City. quote
you could be supporting Brechin City, or sheffield united


09 Apr 21 - 07:11 AM (#4101488)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Good that police in Northern Ireland used water cannon against rioters, now it should be used against troublemaking agitators in Bristol and elsewhere!!


09 Apr 21 - 07:23 AM (#4101489)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

Not sure if this counts as 'political', but UK news is going to be wall-to-wall Prince Philip for who knows how long.
It will be interesting to see how the islanders in Vanuatu take the news.


09 Apr 21 - 11:41 AM (#4101520)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

During WW2, Princess Elizabeth (as was) was quite keen on going through what the rest of the population was, in the ATS, training as a mechanic and so on.

It would be quite something if she decided that the covid rules for funerals should apply to her.


11 Apr 21 - 05:18 AM (#4101822)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

As from tomorrow up to 30 people can attend funerals. I understand that at Philips funeral the royal family intend to adhere to that. Good on them but it is difficult to see how they could do anything else. Of course if it was, heaven forbid, any of Boris's family there would be an exeption...


11 Apr 21 - 05:24 AM (#4101824)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Elsewhere.... indeed ...Troublemaking agitators in Croydon should be silenced, perhaps capital punishmen, take agitators from croydon and put them in the stocks in the capital


11 Apr 21 - 07:02 AM (#4101827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

{{Deep, Heartfelt Sigh}}

Dick, all of Bonzo’s Prince Philip threads have been closed or **disappeared**, presumably because of posters’ bad behaviour. Please don’t get this, our one permitted U.K. Politics thread, closed too.


11 Apr 21 - 07:13 AM (#4101830)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I note that the Beeb has been so overwhelmed by complaints that they have grossly overdone the tributes that a dedicated web page for complaints has been opened. In turn, the vicious anti-Beeb brigade has accused the Beeb of thereby positively encouraging complaints. Damned if they do, damned if they don't. I'd also add that "declaring eight days of national mourning" has the distinct ring of totalitarianism about it...


11 Apr 21 - 07:35 AM (#4101832)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

It certainly has something of a ring of ‘totally-OTT’ about it.


11 Apr 21 - 07:47 AM (#4101833)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

And here we go again with Tory sleaze, lots of dodgy (though still technically legal) lobbying and cronyism going on. The worrying thing is that these things don't seem to matter any more. The more bad things the Tories do, the higher their poll ratings go.


12 Apr 21 - 06:43 AM (#4101954)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

The mourning period is probably an established royal protocol.


12 Apr 21 - 08:03 AM (#4101962)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Yes it is, and quite rightly so.


12 Apr 21 - 08:13 AM (#4101964)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

You may care to look at the recently filed accounts of Brick by Brick Croydon Ltd on the Companies House website, which has the most qualified auditor's report I have ever seen - the company being the play thing of the most useless labour council in the UK!!!


12 Apr 21 - 08:29 AM (#4101966)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Imposed mourning has a real feel of North Korea about it...

Is it OK to not mourn and turn off all the guff on the telly?


12 Apr 21 - 08:31 AM (#4101967)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

how exciting a chance of reading filed accounts of Brick by Brick Croydon Ltd on the Companies House website,Yippee


12 Apr 21 - 01:13 PM (#4101997)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

She played a massive part when it came to keeping Thatcher in power. A lightweight, unprincipled opportunist. No tears this end.


13 Apr 21 - 01:57 AM (#4102054)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

who has died?


13 Apr 21 - 02:52 AM (#4102055)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i am guessing you must be talkimg about shirley williams?


13 Apr 21 - 04:10 AM (#4102058)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

That's the one.


13 Apr 21 - 08:21 AM (#4102074)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Big Al Whittle

I'll put it on Facebook, I'm not a good texter
I've just seen Prince Philip's spectre
I knew it was him, with my medium's knack.
He still had both hands behind his back.


13 Apr 21 - 02:26 PM (#4102113)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Which words are we not allowed to say...???

I might need a little reminder,
as I've been absent away from strict mudcat community dictates
too much this year...

A bit like a young Amish returning home,
after a short taste of freedom in the big outside English world...


13 Apr 21 - 02:46 PM (#4102115)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

To misquote Melvin "Sy" Oliver and James "Trummy" Young.

Tain't What You Say (It's the Way That You Say it)


14 Apr 21 - 10:25 AM (#4102192)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

When Mandela passed we endured a week of curated retrospectives which didn't add much to the global level of intelligence. And that was pre-Trump.

In the wake of Prince Philip, for some reason BBC 4Extra abandoned their regular programming and were mirroring BBC 4 which was mirroring BBC World Service. They're back to normal now but it was rather puzzling as I didn't see or hear any explanation.


17 Apr 21 - 03:50 AM (#4102490)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

It's Phil's funeral today. I guess it will be televised? I won't go out of my way to watch it but it would be interesting to see who talks to Harry!


17 Apr 21 - 04:09 AM (#4102493)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

..... it would be interesting to see who talks to Harry!

Interesting? Hmmm? ....... Nah! - it wouldn't.

DC


17 Apr 21 - 04:50 AM (#4102496)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones

It's so sad that the Queen lost her husband and her cousin on the same day.


17 Apr 21 - 05:23 AM (#4102499)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Can I stop mourning after today please?


17 Apr 21 - 06:38 AM (#4102506)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

I was totally unaware that the queen had lost a cousin. Which one, assuming she has more than one? The news might have reached me, although only of passing interest, except that no other news was allowed that day - no Boris, no covid deaths or vaccinations, no brexit trade snarl-ups, no random shooting, probably no football (but that's one thing I wouldn't have noticed, never mind missed), no, just no anything ...


17 Apr 21 - 07:49 AM (#4102511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Jos:
I think it was a reference to both Elizabeth & Philip being descended from Victoria.


17 Apr 21 - 09:27 AM (#4102516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

Oh, I see - a rather distant cousin, then.


17 Apr 21 - 09:41 AM (#4102517)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

International royals are interbred for pedigree.
But like Crufts,
caution and limits must be observed to avoid the worst consequences of over closely related interbreeding.

Funny how our national mascot bulldog
is so riddled with chronic degenerative genetic health deficiencies..

At least the royal breeders have so far managed to enhance the life expectancy
of the best specimens of their designer offspring.


17 Apr 21 - 12:08 PM (#4102530)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones

Third cousins. Not that distant.

It's a fairly limited gene pool - I wouldn't be surprised if the Queen's corgis had haemophilia.


17 Apr 21 - 12:15 PM (#4102531)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Well, I just watched Fils phuneral and it was pretty spectacular. Us Brits do pomp and circumstance well. If nowt else.


17 Apr 21 - 03:11 PM (#4102550)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

GREENSILL COLlAPSE ,what has been going on?


18 Apr 21 - 05:13 AM (#4102580)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Ithought an accountant might be able to explain, was Denis Skinner right, was david cameron, dodgy dave?


18 Apr 21 - 05:28 AM (#4102581)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

"Ithought an accountant might be able to explain"

And if an accountant had explained, would you have believed it?


18 Apr 21 - 06:54 AM (#4102592)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

I didn't watch the funeral but I keep seeing the picture of her majesty sitting all alone and sad.

I also saw a photograph of her sitting in the same pew, with Prince Andrew sitting in the next-but-one seat. So she wasn't really on her own.

I can only assume he got up to do his speech, and the photographer(s) took the opportunity to take an "emotional" picture.

Tell me if I am wrong, anyone who did watch. Otherwise, it just looks like press manipulation.


18 Apr 21 - 07:04 AM (#4102594)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Jos, he was sitting well away - at least three or four seats - from the Queen, and he didn’t ‘get up to make his speech’, there were no family speeches, just the Dean, the Archbishop of Canterbury, and another guy in fancy-dress doing their stuff.


18 Apr 21 - 07:32 AM (#4102596)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

A later BBC news headline was [paraphrased from memory]

"Two brothers speak to each other at family funeral*

ferfaksake,,,!!!???



Tomorrow's dramatic breaking news..

"Siblings don't always get on well with each other - further reports throughout the day
as the the situation devekops....!!!"...

wot a load of bollocks...


I've got cousins - two sisters - who live next door to each other on a council estate,
and they've refused to speak to each other for years,
f@k knows what they fell out about,
Who gives a shit...

Maybe the BBC news channel...???


No, funnily enough I didn't bother watching the royal funeral...


18 Apr 21 - 08:46 AM (#4102600)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

This is the picture I saw - maybe a two-seat gap, but really not far apart.


18 Apr 21 - 09:02 AM (#4102602)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Still a simple matter to zoom in for a close-up, or crop that shot down to a close-up of the Queen, giving the impression of ‘loneliness’ is all I’m saying.


18 Apr 21 - 09:08 AM (#4102603)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Pfr, I watched it last night, but only from the bit where the band was playing just before he was loaded on to the Landrover - I couldn’t be arsed with all the sycophantic bullshit and bollocks of the preceding couple of hours. Although I’m not particularly enamoured of the Royals, I did regard his death and funeral as very significant events in our history and, as such, worthy of my attention.

But it’s each to his own, eh?


18 Apr 21 - 09:21 AM (#4102605)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I saw a little bit of the synchronised funny skip walk behind the coffin...

Now I genuinely admire highly skilled and disciplined military precision,
but they know just how daft they can look...???


19 Apr 21 - 08:38 AM (#4102689)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jack Campin

Regularly updated tally of job losses due to Brexit:

The Digby Jones Index


19 Apr 21 - 09:55 AM (#4102695)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy

Is this a political thing? It is British but might be New News Not About The Virus...

Putting fat kids in foster care?


19 Apr 21 - 12:43 PM (#4102714)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jack Campin

I can imagine it might happen anywhere if the parents are deliberately making their kids dangerously obese. Or in cases of Prader-Willi syndrome where the parents can't cope.

There's no policy about it anywhere I know of.


19 Apr 21 - 01:34 PM (#4102720)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jack Campin

Who was making it news, anyway? Murdoch or Taiwanese-fascist-owned media?


19 Apr 21 - 02:01 PM (#4102722)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy

My link did not work, sorry!

https://slate.com/technology/2021/04/child-separation-weight-stigma-diets.html


19 Apr 21 - 04:26 PM (#4102730)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jack Campin

Weirdly twisted article, obviously a collective effort by a bunch of actvists with bugs up their collective arse. (Slate seems to be controlled by a few "libertarian" cranks).

"Morbidly obese" means life-threatening illness. It would give the kids more chance in life if their parents simply sodomized them every night. Of course social services aren't going to let children get forced into slow death.


20 Apr 21 - 02:15 PM (#4102817)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Some news from Kent

++

Two major measures to avoid HGV congestion after Brexit are being removed in the coming days.

The first to go will be the Kent Access Permit, a document that ensured all lorry drivers had the correct paperwork to cross the border.

Legally-required by all heavy goods drivers entering the county, as of today they will not be needed.

The second scheme to be removed is the M20 contraflow system, with work beginning on Saturday
++

Ferry news

A new freight service is to be launched between Kent and France, creating around 100 jobs.

Ferry operator DFDS says the new freight-only service will start operating between Sheerness and Calais from June.

It will offer one daily sailing in each direction between the two ports on ship Gothia, which can carry up to 165 unaccompanied freight units - which are trailers or containers without drivers.

++
A leading union has hit out at plans for Irish Ferries to run a Dover to Calais service later this year - accusing it of having "an appalling safety record" and crewing its vessels "almost entirely with eastern European seafarers".

The National Union of Rail, Maritime and Transport Workers (RMT) says it fears for jobs and the local economy could be at risk when the cross-Channel service launched in June.


20 Apr 21 - 02:24 PM (#4102820)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

interesting does this mean more bureucracy?
What was the necessity of the kent access permit, it must have been unworkable


20 Apr 21 - 02:31 PM (#4102821)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

The Kent Access Permit was a scheme introduced to avoid freight vehicles arriving at the ports without the correct export documentation. The fear was that there would be long queues of traffic stuck in Kent. That problem seems to have been avoided. Now people are more aware of what export documentation is required.


21 Apr 21 - 04:27 AM (#4102889)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

brexit + covid + Ever Given = most items on my Amazon wishlist
becoming out of stock, or substantially increasing in price...

[..and severely restricted delivery options for items from Amazon EU]

In 2021 brexiteers are so lucky they have pandemic and a shipping traffic jam to shift the blame on...


21 Apr 21 - 03:17 PM (#4103011)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

From The Guardian

Former veterans’ minister Johnny Mercer has launched an extraordinary attack on Boris Johnson’s government, describing it as a “cesspit” and “the most distrustful, awful environment I’ve ever worked in”.

And

This is the most distrustful, awful environment I’ve ever worked in, in government. Almost nobody tells the truth is what I’ve worked out over the last 36 hours.

“And, you know, I don’t think anyone really can get on their high horse about trust and ethics and all the rest of it in politics, because as far as I’m concerned, most of it is a bit of a cesspit.”

Ex-minister unhappy


23 Apr 21 - 07:54 AM (#4103212)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and to anyone but the pickest of nit pickers, BWMs remark was an obvious joke. Of course your response could be a joke too but you are abit less transparent than BWM so it is difficult to tell!


23 Apr 21 - 08:14 AM (#4103213)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Frankly, my dears, I don’t give a damn! ;-) :-)


23 Apr 21 - 12:55 PM (#4103250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

OOO! Looks like I get to claim 1000 this time!


23 Apr 21 - 01:07 PM (#4103253)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Ouch!
It is sad to see the PM and his office fall so far below the standards of competence and integrity the country deserves

I am no fan of Cummings, but I have to agree with him on this one.


23 Apr 21 - 01:57 PM (#4103259)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Yet again you have to ask who is advising the PM on PR. Is it the same people who were advising the ESL clubs? How some people get paid I will never know.

Will this end up the 1000th post?


24 Apr 21 - 04:36 AM (#4103307)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Well done for the 1000 Dave :-)

Couldn't agree more about Cummings. Shifty sod that he is, he has shown in his blog that Bozzer and his pals are a devious and corrupt bunch. I think that they will try to get away with it by brazening it out but it will come back to bite their bums.


24 Apr 21 - 07:17 AM (#4103312)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Excellent piece in today’s Independent - I wonder what our resident apologists for the corrupt crooks of the Tory government will have to say about it?


24 Apr 21 - 07:44 AM (#4103315)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

"resident apologists" or people who just don't agree with you?


24 Apr 21 - 10:27 AM (#4103337)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Anyone trying to justify the corruption of the current administration is an apologist, Rain Dog. If you disagree with that, fine. It still makes you an apologist so your last remark does not make a lot of sense.


24 Apr 21 - 10:36 AM (#4103339)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Damned if you apologize, damned if you don't.
Does justifiable corruption exist? It depends on who you defend.


24 Apr 21 - 11:35 AM (#4103353)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

No, sorry Donuel. Apologising for not acknowledging black and Asian troops who were killed in WW1 is acceptable. Trying to justify a government that gets its friends rich by corruption is not.


24 Apr 21 - 03:25 PM (#4103382)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”resident apologists" or people who just don't agree with you?”

Whether they agree with me is irrelevant. It’s not a case of opinion, evidence of the corruption of Ali Baba Johnson and The Forty Thieves is piling up. My question is, how will their bewitched and delusional supporters attempt to naysay that evidence?


26 Apr 21 - 01:30 AM (#4103522)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

perhaps a law should be passed that MPS should not have any outside representation, that they should only be paid to represent their constituents.


26 Apr 21 - 02:18 AM (#4103526)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

of course, i've always thought that representing the interests of 60-70,000 constituents would be a full-time job. doing any other job at the same time would inevitably lead to a conflict of interests and of your MP's time.


26 Apr 21 - 02:33 AM (#4103527)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Looks as though the worms may be turning - even the Daily Heil giving negative reports on Johnson. With the negative reporting currently happening, and his former chief advisor openly inserting the blade between his 3rd and 4th ribs, the campaign to oust Johnson before Christmas seems to be ramping up.


26 Apr 21 - 02:48 AM (#4103529)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Trouble is, who would replace him? We need someone honest, truthful and compassionate. I don't think there is anyone amongst the current crew who fits the bill.


26 Apr 21 - 03:57 AM (#4103531)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The problem is that the Conservative Party is dedicated to a culture of selfishness and greed, and is mired in deceit and corruption. In that regard, one Tory is very much like the next - the only answer is for Labour to defeat them soundly at a GE but, while the LP is more interested in fighting internal wars and undermining its own leadership that it is in fighting the worst, most corrupt Tory government in living memory, there’s little or no chance of that happening.


26 Apr 21 - 05:11 AM (#4103533)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”...fighting internal wars and undermining its own leadership that it is in fighting the worst, most corrupt Tory government in living memory...”

Than it is...!!


26 Apr 21 - 09:19 AM (#4103562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Signs that we are coming out of lockdown and returning to normality..

The tory backstabbing and throat cutting competition reality show is back on our TVs..

It's always guaranteed top entertainment, and never disappoints keen viewers.
Fans of the show can look forward to a thrilling new season of all the usual ruthless ambition deceit and sleaze
that keeps viewers glued to the screen..

Insider rumours hint this could be a return to the thrills and chilling horrors of the greatest unforgettable villains off classic seasons of the past..

If speculation is true that this might be the last series, we can hope for a gloriously spectacular finale of bloodletting and gore.
With the prospects of future sequels and spin offs, with new cast members and some surviving old Favourites..

Who will they be, is it too much to hope for the shocking surprise return of fan favorites from earlier seasons...???

I'm getting too excited already...


27 Apr 21 - 03:20 AM (#4103658)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Never sure which thread to use for any subject that has any connection to the UK

From the BBC this morning

"All fixed penalty notices for Covid lockdown breaches, which can be as high as £10,000, should be reviewed - according to a parliamentary committee.

The system is "muddled, discriminatory and unfair", MPs on the Joint Committee on Human Rights argued.

More than 85,000 fixed penalty notices have been issued in England since the pandemic began, and 8,000 in Wales."

Lockdown fines should be reviewed

Hopefully when things finally return to normal, it will be interesting to see how many of these have been paid and/or if they are found to have been invalid.


27 Apr 21 - 04:14 AM (#4103666)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Selfish arseholes who flagrantly defied lockdown restrictions, safe distancing, and mask wearing
should not now be let off any fines they received for risking other citizen's health and lives..

This would now send all the wrong signals to the ideologues, zealots, agitators, and all other anti social libertarian covid denier wankers..

Especially the lethal organized element within the tory govt...!!!


27 Apr 21 - 06:42 AM (#4103681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

From today's Guardian reporting on the same matter.

"Large fixed penalties awarded irrespective of the individual’s circumstances “risk being inherently unjust” and the current system “criminalises the poor over the wealthy”, the committee members warn.

They say there should a graduated approach to FPN amounts and people should not face a criminal record for non-payment, questioning “why a breach of the coronavirus regulations would be relevant to someone’s future employment prospects or ability to travel to certain countries”."

All Covid fines in England should be reviewed say MPs

I think if these cases go to court quite a few will end up being dismissed.


27 Apr 21 - 07:53 AM (#4103684)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Any labour or liberal politicians backing this crackpot review of fines,
needs to pull their heads out of their arses..

.. and consider the ramifications
of a long summer of selfish reckless fuckwits who know there won't be any punishments for wilfully disobeying rules, and spreading the next lethal wave amongst us..

It's easy to understand tories not wanting to lose their new working class voters at any cost.
But now it appears even the likes of Harriet Harman are putting gaining back votes over heaping piles of thousands of bodies.

She's either blatantly cynical or very naive...???


27 Apr 21 - 08:55 AM (#4103696)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

I don't think they are saying do away with the regulations and enforcement of the regulations. There is mention of 65 changes to the regulations since first introduced. Some police forces have said that the regulations and subsequent changes have been confusing at times. It also remains to be seen if the law has been applied correctly or not.

Will all the fines be paid? I think it is safe to say that they will not. It remains to be seen if they will prosecute people for non payment, given the huge backlog of court cases that we already have.


27 Apr 21 - 09:33 AM (#4103702)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Ok, the rules governing fines were carelessly bodged and hastily rushed through by a consistently inept government..

That's easy enough for folks not to disagree with.

This has left the police confused and occasionally overzealous.

But this new committee review will inevitably be appropriated to suit the agenda of opportunist right-wing libertarians,
taking advantage of kind hearted misguided lefty liberal human rights advocates..

The end results being even more positive signals sent out to society's arsholes to continue wilfully riding a wave spreading disease throughout the summer and autumn.

How big a pile of thousands of bodies can be costed in as acceptable collateral damage;
just so a committee of politicians and other idealogues can wallow in their own self-indulgent academic legalistic principles...???


27 Apr 21 - 09:56 AM (#4103703)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

I didn't need the threat of fines to keep me from following the recommendations. I think it is safe to say that the majority of people didn't need that threat either.

I have guessed that a lot of your previous posts are intended to raise a smile pfr, with your right wing this and your right wing that. I hope that your lurch to authoritarian views,and your dismissal of any contrary views, are not symptoms of either long covid, covid induced psychosis or merely the intended results of the vaccine.

Sunny day here today and a little warmer. I am off to the pub shortly and hope to avoid picking up any fines on my way there and back.

Stay safe.


27 Apr 21 - 10:14 AM (#4103704)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Staying safe is my primary principle,
They're all trying to kill me...

By the way, nowt wrong with being a lefty with a respect for discipline..

On law and order issues my views would make many mail and express reader "hang 'em then flog 'em then hang 'em again" tories feel uncomfortably queasy...


29 Apr 21 - 02:44 PM (#4103990)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

MPs urge Government to level playing field for meat and seafood exporters

"In its new report—Seafood and Meat Exports to the EU—the Environment, Food and Rural Affairs (EFRA) Committee expresses urgent concerns for exporters of highly time-sensitive fresh and live seafood and meat shipments to the EU, particularly small and medium sized businesses.

Despite overcoming initial "teething problems" the new barriers small seafood and meat export businesses face could render them unviable, and factories and jobs may relocate to the EU."

And

"The Committee criticises the fact that controls on EU seafood and meat imports will not commence until 1 October 2021, with checks at the border only commencing from 1 January 2022.

This has placed British businesses at a competitive disadvantage and reduced the incentive on the European Commission to negotiate measures that would lessen the burdens facing British producers."


Seafood and Meat Exports to the EU


30 Apr 21 - 10:40 AM (#4104068)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Would any of our resident Brexiteers care to comment on or argue against Poly Toynbee's analysis of Brexit?

Johnson’s legacy will be the bitter taste of Brexit


30 Apr 21 - 08:24 PM (#4104126)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave:
I thought I'd give it a go. She doesn't make it difficult to disagree with her.
First paragraph (from your link):
Amid slippages, losses, vanishing investments and export drops, the drip, drip of Brexit damage never stops. I collect examples every week, as if picking up spent mortar rounds from a battlefield. On Wednesday, it was 450 jobs lost as car parts manufacturer Toyoda Gosei prepares to shut factories in Rotherham and Swansea, and relocate to the Czech Republic.
The link she gave in that paragraph, supposedly to support her argument was to the BBC. Unfortunately the BBC article says: The company, which produces components for Toyota, Nissan, Renault and Honda, said it was responding to changes in the global sector and a "significant reduction" in UK customer demand. AND "There isn't one factor that has resulted in the announcement today," added a spokeswoman.
Nowhere in the BBC article do they blame Brexit. (although they do link to yet a further BBC article about generalised problems with the supply chain) So if Polly Toynbee is putting links in her articles maybe she thinks no-one will read the links, but just assume that she's giving supporting evidence.

Then, after using a headline saying: Forget curtains and cash – Johnson’s legacy will be the bitter taste of Brexit in the second paragraph she goes on to discuss the wallpaper for Downing Street. Consistancy of message? No!


01 May 21 - 02:07 AM (#4104133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

It is more the premise of her article that I was interested in, Nigel. I I would have thought the "Johnson's legacy" bit would have indicated that but sorry for not making it clear enough. Here is the opening salvo fired at Bozzer.

But history will record one great political crime above all the others, his tawdry dishonesties mere illuminations round its edges. The delinquent who miss-sold Brexit to half the nation with a stardust of false promises to secure himself the throne will leave behind the Brexit breakages long after he has gone.


And it concludes against him

Wallpaper and lies may bring Johnson down, but Brexit is the crime against the country for which he will be for ever damned. Riots and the fall of Arlene Foster imperil the peace agreement in Ireland, and the UK’s breakup is on a knife edge.

Regardless of her reasons and politics, do you agree with her conclusion that Johnson's mismanagement of brexit is a much bigger crime than the expensive curtains?


01 May 21 - 05:48 AM (#4104149)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Regardless of her reasons and politics, do you agree with her conclusion that Johnson's mismanagement of brexit is a much bigger crime than the expensive curtains?

No! (in answer to the direct question)

I don't consider that Boris has mismanaged or mis-sold Brexit. He had a poor starting position because of the position left by Theresa May. I still believe that Brexit will have been a positive move for the country in general.
As for his legacy, yes, he is more likely to be remembered for Brexit than for the refurbishment of 11 Downing Street. He is also more likely to be remembered for his handling of Covid.
In the 'great scheme of things' how the refurbishment was paid for is a minor matter which should not distract from the more important issues facing the country.
But of course, there are elections pending (particularly in Scotland and Wales) so jumping on this could be seen as the opportunism of the opposition.


01 May 21 - 06:56 AM (#4104153)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

OK, thanks Nigel. You gave a direct answer of 'no' to whether the mismanagment of brexit was more important than lying about the refurbishment of his flat so you must consider the latter to be more important. On the other hand, you say that Bozzer will be remembered more for brexit. How can that be if you consider it a less important issue than his curtains?

Yes, I know that you belive that brexit is a good thing and that eventually we will be better off. That is against the views of the vast majority of economists and business leaders who tell us that it may be decades, if ever, before we recover from the move. Nothing wrong with swimming against the tide but please don't blame anyone else if you drown and try to ensure you don't take anyone else with you. Of course you may believe that the insubstantial concept of "sovereignty" is more important than our long term well being. Many do. I don't.


01 May 21 - 07:04 AM (#4104155)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

The Tories started off this Scottish election with constant attacks on Sturgeon and did she break the ministerial code. There was several weeks of it with the media suggesting she was in the point of having to resign. In truth nobody much in the population at large very much cared if she heard about the allegations against Salmond several days before she initially said. It blew over eventually and no doubt dented the initial campaign a wee bit but not seriously. They are ending it now with their own UK leader under the spotlight. Not sure if that will make much difference in the scheme things. If Labour come in 2nd rather than the Tories I think it would be down to Sarwar appearing more sensible than Ross more than what Boris has or hasn't done.


01 May 21 - 07:27 AM (#4104158)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It is not a minor matter. It is an abuse of the privileges of high office. It is, in essence, the same kind of amorality/immorality that leads to the enrichment of dictators and their hangers-on.


01 May 21 - 07:35 AM (#4104160)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Agreed, Steve. But it will not damage the country as much as brexit! Bozzer has a track record of lying, cheating and bullying yet he was so popular that he gained a massive majority. We need to ask ourselves why and, as a member of the Labour party at the time, I consider it to be as much my fault as anyone's that the mandate to continue lying, cheating and bullying was handed to him on a plate.


01 May 21 - 08:20 AM (#4104163)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

however keir starmer does not seem to be leading the party any more effectively than corbyn, he is imo no more effective at pm question time and has as much charisma as the moving statue. keir starmer the moving statue of st pancreas


01 May 21 - 03:31 PM (#4104219)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Whatever our resident Tory apologists say, however they wriggle, no matter how they manipulate their weasel-words, the plain, simple truth - undeniable except by those too blinded by Tory propaganda and dogma to see - is that Johnson is an habitual liar who cares about no-one but himself, utterly devoid of shame or morals, and totally unsuitable to be the leader of the United Kingdom..

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/apr/30/scandal-charge-sheet-johnson-wallpaper-lying?fbclid=IwAR0rXmSukafl8GedXIRs


01 May 21 - 03:53 PM (#4104226)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

OK, thanks Nigel. You gave a direct answer of 'no' to whether the mismanagment of brexit was more important than lying about the refurbishment of his flat so you must consider the latter to be more important. On the other hand, you say that Bozzer will be remembered more for brexit. How can that be if you consider it a less important issue than his curtains?

Again, No!.
The question I answered was yours: do you agree with her conclusion that Johnson's mismanagement of brexit is a much bigger crime than the expensive curtains?

By saying "No!" that does not mean that I think curtains are more important. I do not agree with her conclusion that a) Johnson has mismanaged Brexit, or b) That his treatment of Brexit was a crime.

My answer of "No!" was in response to your question of whether I agreed with her conclusion. Do not try to read into it something which isn't there.


02 May 21 - 03:58 AM (#4104274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - do you disagree that boris would repay your loyalty
by throwing you under a bus
if his own benefit and survival were at stake...???


02 May 21 - 06:30 AM (#4104282)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

from labours point of view who would be the party leader most likely to .lose for the tories gove patel johnson or sunak


02 May 21 - 07:13 AM (#4104287)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Typical political answer, Nigel. Like Bozzer going on about the virus when asked a direst question about his breaking parliamentary rules. All bluster and no substance. Little wonder he is your pin up boy.


02 May 21 - 11:03 AM (#4104321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave:
Typical political answer, Nigel
Not a 'political' answer. I answered the question you phrased. If the question is so badly phrased that a straightforward answer can be so easily (or deliberately) misunderstood then that is the fault of the person asking the question.


02 May 21 - 01:33 PM (#4104340)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

OK. I'll make it simple. Is the mismanagement of brexit a more serious issue than breaching parliamentary procedure and then lying about it?

A simple yes or no will do.


02 May 21 - 06:07 PM (#4104389)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

We elect politicians of whichever party to govern the country. They are public servants, we expect them to hold to certain standards and they are beholden to not to abuse the positions we have elected them to hold.

Johnson by evading to answer what should have been a simple question is thus ensuring a very expensive inquiry will have to take place and therefore compounding the insult he may have inflicted upon the British public.

A VERY simply way to have avoided this was to answer the question of who paid for the refurbishment of his apartment at No 11 Downing Street in a truthful and straightforward manner.


03 May 21 - 02:15 AM (#4104422)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Johnson in a truthful and straightforward manner?

You're having a laugh Raggy!


03 May 21 - 03:19 AM (#4104426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

Do we know that it HAS been paid yet?


03 May 21 - 11:16 AM (#4104487)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Boris, you are in too much hot water over corruption accusations, far too close to elections.

You better resort too distracting voters with strong suggestions you'll lift safe distancing and travel restrictions even earlier asap in June.

Just remember to qualify it with 'as data allows" while you cross your fingers behind your back and give a sly wink and nod to camera..

And don't give into those trouble making complaining lefties who are so afraid of such irrelevant trifling matters as piles of bodies.

Ignore the soft commie twats...



You know, I think I missed my true vocation as a tory party advisor...???


03 May 21 - 11:46 AM (#4104496)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i reckon the consevatives will ditch him


03 May 21 - 12:16 PM (#4104504)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Remember that we had egg on our faces when predicting he'd be ditched within weeks of winning the election.
Going down on record as the shortest lasting PM ever..

I definitely got that prediction wrong,
that the tories would use his bare faced dishonest populism to win.
Them boot him out at the first opportunity he f***** up
( with some typical stupid bad PR misdemeanor)
In order to bring in their all along first choice more hardline further right replacement..

He's a cunning bastard born survivor,
and he knows just how ruthless his backstabbing ministers will be...


03 May 21 - 12:30 PM (#4104506)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Let's see what happens in Hartlepool on Thursday.


03 May 21 - 01:04 PM (#4104513)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

well the bookies have the tory candiate at 4 to 7 on


03 May 21 - 04:27 PM (#4104553)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

OK. I'll make it simple. Is the mismanagement of brexit a more serious issue than breaching parliamentary procedure and then lying about it?

In my opinion, Yes.


04 May 21 - 02:45 AM (#4104617)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thank you Nigel. That is what Polly Toynbee was saying!


05 May 21 - 07:57 AM (#4104839)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Prince Charles does he have an illegitimate son?
GOSH HOW UPSETTING FOR OUR NOW ABSENT ROYAL WORSHIPPER.he must be barking and frothing at the month ,well dorante day better mid himself or else he will have an accident like diana


05 May 21 - 08:08 AM (#4104843)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Wouldn’t a DNA-test determine the veracity of Simon Dorante-Day’s claim to be the spawn of Charles and Camilla, and put an end to the newspaper/FarceBook talk?


05 May 21 - 08:13 AM (#4104845)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Only partially absent, but twice as mean!!!!!


05 May 21 - 09:11 AM (#4104857)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

On another, far more important topic, it appears that a design has been put forward for a new, £200 million royal yacht....

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2021/05/01/exclusive-britannia-rule-waves-new-royal-yacht-named-prince/

Another enormous waste of taxpayers’ money, but at least it’ll give the royal-worshippers and flag-waggers the pleasure of a huge orgasm....


05 May 21 - 09:17 AM (#4104860)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i agree backwood


06 May 21 - 08:51 PM (#4105087)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

As John Bercow said on QT tonight, if you believe that sending the gunboats to Jersey on Election Day is a coincidence, you'll believe anything. That's how Boris does it. You don't need morals.


07 May 21 - 12:57 AM (#4105101)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Sadly, Steve, his blatant opportunism chimes with the feeble-minded and the brainwashed. Suckers will be suckers...


07 May 21 - 01:05 AM (#4105104)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

first the people of hartlepool hung a monkey now they are electing one


07 May 21 - 02:43 AM (#4105108)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i even heard some reporter say this LATEST ELECTION defeat was Corbyns fault


07 May 21 - 04:41 AM (#4105116)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

On the gunboat issue: it is slightly more complicated than Boris sending them in on election day, because he could only send them in response to the French fishing fleet. And they were entirely free to choose what day the action took place. It could be the day after the voting equally easily as the day before. Had it been the day after, Johnson could have sent the patrol boats and it would have had no impact on the votes, because they would have been cast already.

I would say, though, that given the French had decided to turn up just before the vote, Johnson almost certainly reacted by sending in the patrol boats because it would 'sell well to the Brexit supporters' who were about to vote.


07 May 21 - 04:58 AM (#4105120)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

He didn't have to send them at all.


07 May 21 - 05:47 AM (#4105124)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

That’s exactly the point Steve. Sabre-rattling, designed to please the Union-Jack-Boxers Brigade, the flag-waggers, and the simple-minded ones who fall for the government’s Nationalistic, Right-Wing propaganda.


07 May 21 - 06:13 AM (#4105128)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I see that monkey hangers are now monkey huggers...


07 May 21 - 06:15 AM (#4105129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

"feeble-minded and the brainwashed. Suckers will be suckers..."

"Union-Jack-Boxers Brigade, the flag-waggers, and the simple-minded ones"


Terrible things elections. The sheer effrontery of some people deciding to vote differently from oneself. Surely there must be a way of disenfranchising these automatons in any future elections.


07 May 21 - 07:12 AM (#4105131)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

No-one is suggesting that, but it's perfectly possible to bemoan the fact that there is a severe deficit in political education which leads people to choose to vote against their own interests. 'Twas ever thus: in the 70s, when we suggested properly structured political education in schools we were shot down as extreme commie reds under the beds. Nothing suits the Tories better than an ignorant electorate. It makes many people prone to being impressed more by a fat idiot driving a JCB through a wall of polystyrene blocks, or riding a bike lustily in a faked photograph, than any consideration of the important issues of the day. They are prone to not minding too much a serial liar or fornicator either. Send out the gunboats and grab some votes! Political ignorance has delivered the world Margaret Thatcher, Ronald Reagan, Dubya, Donald Trump and our own resident clown. They are all far more of a threat to democracy than us lot here moaning about bad voter decision-making.


07 May 21 - 07:15 AM (#4105132)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

It speaks volumes that you don’t actually deny the truth of those epithets, RD, you simply put up a straw-man. Perhaps you’d care to provide proof of where I’m wrong?


07 May 21 - 07:26 AM (#4105133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Good post Steve. Absolutely right on the button.


07 May 21 - 08:03 AM (#4105136)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

I am not a fan of people who choose to insult those who think or act differently.

I don't know why the people of Hartlepool voted the way that they did. I don't have that insight that some of you seem to possess. Of course the people who voted conservative did not necessarily all have the same reasons for doing so. But it was their right to vote as they wanted.

Political ignorance? How many times have you heard people say that they have always voted for a party because their parents and maybe their grandparents voted that way. Should we stop them from voting? Should you only be able to vote if you have achieved the pass mark in one
of Steve's exams? I can just imagine the arguments about the curriculum for that subject.

These are strange times that we are living in when so many of you have such low opinions of your fellow citizens.


07 May 21 - 08:19 AM (#4105140)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Should you only be able to vote if you have achieved the pass mark in one of Steve's exams?

Of course not and, yet again, you are setting up another straw man.

I do believe however that those responsible for deciding the fate of others, ie the electorate, should have at least some understanding of what they are voting for and the what the consequences of their decisions are likely to be. The best way of doing this is to educate the electorate from an early age. It is too late for those, like us, already set in our ways but for those as yet to vote there is plenty of opportunity to do this in a completely non partisan manner.


07 May 21 - 08:41 AM (#4105144)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

"What do we think that a young adult should know after they have completed 13 years of compulsory education here in the UK?"

Well, as they have followed different paths through school, have different talents and abilities (or disabilities) and all progress at different rates, there's no answer to that, is there? I could say a basic level of numeracy and literacy, but one student's good is another student's bog-standard is another student's impossible. I could say they should have a well-rounded, intelligent and sociable outlook on life, but, grand though that sounds, it's just waffle. I could say sympathy and tolerance for all other humans, and a high level of environmental consciousness, but ditto. I could say that the generations above them have the responsibility to pass on all the best of what they themselves have learned, so that the young 'uns can stand on the shoulders of giants, but gosh, that's mired in all sorts of murk, innit...


07 May 21 - 08:51 AM (#4105146)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Neither I nor anyone else here has even remotely suggested that anyone should be denied the vote on the grounds of their education/ignorance/voting predilections, or should have to pass any test, and predicating your argument on that premise marks you as vexatious.


07 May 21 - 09:04 AM (#4105147)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Of course we haven’t, Steve. Just more Straw-Men - no surprise there.


07 May 21 - 10:38 AM (#4105156)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Vexatious?

What's next? Asking the mods to stop me from posting? That is the usual tactic here isn't it?

I don't like the way some of you denigrate and insult those people who dare to vote for parties or ideas that you don't like.

I am bemused that some of you seem to have the ability to get inside the minds of others and know the reasons why they voted the way they did.

I am bemused that those of you with mind reading abilities were surprised by the Hartlepool result. There was always the possibility of Tory win but I did not expect it to be so big.


07 May 21 - 11:11 AM (#4105158)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"What's next? Asking the mods to stop me from posting? That is the usual tactic here isn't it?"

No it isn't. It happens rarely. I can think of two people in the sixteen or so years I've been here, and I'm not even sure that I asked the mods to stop them posting. Mists of time and all that. Dunno about anyone else here. By the way, those two were both far-right plants.

"I don't like the way some of you denigrate and insult those people who dare to vote for parties or ideas that you don't like."

We call it "democracy."

"I am bemused that those of you with mind reading abilities were surprised by the Hartlepool result."

"Those of us?" Pray tell, which one of us expressed the remotest bit of surprise at the result? Au contraire, I saw this coming weeks ago and you can bet your bottom dollar that so did the others posting to this thread. You make things up just to knock them down. Some call it straw man. Perhaps your favourite aunt is called Sally...


07 May 21 - 11:14 AM (#4105159)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Why the personal attack, Rain Dog? If you believe your previous posts were not vexacious, that last one was nothing but until the last paragraph. A good way to get a thread closed and little else.


07 May 21 - 11:14 AM (#4105160)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

So, RD, what you’re saying is that your opinion is that other people shouldn’t be allowed to express their opinion unless it’s an opinion you approve of?


07 May 21 - 11:28 AM (#4105163)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”I am bemused that some of you seem to have the ability to get inside the minds of others and know the reasons why they voted the way they did.”

No, RD, we don’t do that. But we do see and hear the mind-control techniques and diversionary tactics of Brexiteers and the Tories, some overt, some subtle, but all aimed at persuading **a certain kind** of voter to vote against their own best interests.


07 May 21 - 01:15 PM (#4105178)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Btw, I fully acknowledge that I do not understand how people still stand behind this government but accept that is my problem, not theirs. I try to understand but to date no-one has explained how a lying, cheating philanderer like Boris can be so popular. Can you?


07 May 21 - 03:58 PM (#4105195)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave:
He gets the job done. His sexual morality (or lack thereof) has no real effect on the job he is doing.
What the payment arrangements were for his flat, and I still believe in innocent until proven guilty, again do not prevent him doing his job.


07 May 21 - 04:12 PM (#4105196)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

Rain Dog

I often heard Labour voters in the UK say that they were voting Labour in the same way as their parents always did but I never heard anyone say it out of “political ignorance” . Rather it was because their parents and grandparents had gone through the "hungry thirties" and passed on their bitter experiences .


07 May 21 - 04:52 PM (#4105202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i was a labour voter wheni lived in the uk, i have voted the same way as my parents did .my father did 30 days hard labour in prison for exercising his right to free speech criticising the royal family in the 1930s , there was no political ignorance in my family. ok rain canine


07 May 21 - 06:14 PM (#4105209)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well my dad was a Labour councillor in Radcliffe in the sixties. My mum and dad worked for the Labour Party in elections, as indeed did I, in my case from the age of twelve, collecting numbers for Labour at our local polling station. My grandad was a lifelong Tory, who worked all his life in Salford docks. He was also a cradle Catholic, and the priests from the pulpits in Prestwich and Whitefield told him and his ilk to vote Tory. Tory, Queen, God and country. His son, my uncle, wore the bearskin at Buckingham Palace and changed the guards many times and all that. That's how it was. I've voted in every single election that I've been qualified to vote in, ever since I was eighteen. I'm very interested in politics, I come from a piss-poor working class background, and I know only too well how Tories, over many decades, have enabled the repression of the working classes whilst simultaneously enriching themselves. If we can't stand up to this (and just think how we got all those zero-hours contracts, shite pay, job insecurity, inhuman benefits system...) the working classes are doomed. But I have faith.


08 May 21 - 12:18 AM (#4105235)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m000vw3q/dateline-london-08052021


08 May 21 - 02:40 AM (#4105236)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

is anyone asking why did the liberals do so badly in hartlepool?349 votes


08 May 21 - 04:21 AM (#4105241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Adolph Hitler got they job done as well, Nigel. I'm not saying Boris is like him. Simply that getting the job done is not a good reason to support him.


08 May 21 - 05:10 AM (#4105242)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

The Lib Dems did really badly in Hartlepool. Likewise in my consituency they do really poorly now. This used to be, until less than a decade ago, a strong Lib Dem seat and had been since the early 1960s. The SNP took the Westminster seat from them and now it is Tory. They only got 6% of the vote in our constituency vote on Thursday's Scottish elections! They have managed so far to keep all their Scottish constituency seats from 2016 but I think it is mainly down to local loyalty. So very localised. They were though almost pipped to it by the SNP in Shetland which would have been unthinkable in times past.


08 May 21 - 05:21 AM (#4105244)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

getting the job done is not a good reason to support him.
Nor is focussing on his human failings a reason to vote for an opposition which does not appear to have clear policies, would not tell us whether or not they favoured Brexit, and is so divided that it is uncertain whether they would have been able to come to any decisions on how to deal with Covid.


08 May 21 - 05:29 AM (#4105245)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Whilst I think that he's bad enough to justify a vote for almost anyone else, you are right about Labour, Nigel. I tried to tell folks a year ago that this guy is a reactor, not a doer, and a charisma-free born loser. There's been no talk of dumping him, and I suppose we're going to have to get trashed in another election before we can ditch him.


08 May 21 - 06:13 AM (#4105246)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The problem is not so much Starmer, Steve, as Corbyn-Fanbois busting a gut to undermine him and inflame division in the party.

The one thing the Tories get right, perhaps the only thing IMO, is that they demonstrate unity in public, even when there are rifts in private. Pursuing an internal war in public in order to de-stabilise the democratically-elected leader is a sure way to guarantee electoral failure. And pursuing a war, in full public view, to push for the reinstatement to the leadership of someone whose ineptitude brought the party to its worst GE defeat in 85 years must qualify as the stupidest kind of stupid.

I’ve said before that I have no great regard for Starmer and I won’t shed any tears if he goes. Replace him if you must, but with the right person - any sensible suggestions?


08 May 21 - 06:52 AM (#4105247)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

A valid point from Nigel Parsons that Labour “would not tell us whether or not they favoured Brexit” . It makes the Labour Party seem more dishonest than the Tories - “Boris Johnson is an honest liar and at least you get a laugh out of him ”!
I detect the voice of Boris in some of the anti-EU propaganda recently archived by the EU
"The EU has archived all of the “Euromyths” printed in UK media – and it makes for some disturbing reading":
https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/the-eu-have-archived-all-of-the-euromyths-printed-in-uk-media-and-it-makes-for-some-disturbing-reading-108942/
(the blue clicky thing doesn't seem to work)


08 May 21 - 07:23 AM (#4105249)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Yes, MM, Nigel is spot-on about the divisions in the Labour Party wrecking its election-potential, something I’ve been trying to tell the Corbynista-Fanbois for a long time, and for which I’ve been harangued mercilessly, both here and elsewhere. It’s high time they stopped fighting each other, and united to do what the Labour Party exists for - to fight the worst Tory government in living memory.

None are so blind as they who think they’re so clever they have nothing to learn.


08 May 21 - 08:07 AM (#4105250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

BWM - i don't know about the tories demonstrating unity in public. when johnson got the job the more sensible of the party's MPs were ruthlessly purged. almost at a stroke the tories became an english nationalist, brexit, johnson personality cult. and what happened to those principled voices like rory stewart, ken clarke, dominic grieve et al? theresa may? all the tory party members with a conscience (of sorts) who mistrust and dislike johnson and don't favour brexit? all these people seem to have disappeared - probably to their boardroom jobs or writing unreadable memoirs. my suspicion is that tories aren't really interested in politics per se - it's just a game that results in preserving their gains and protecting their perceived social status. on the left we are cursed with giving a shit about stuff and will fight about matters of principle- particularly about what is fair and humane. now , socialists are out of favour in the labour party and are being told to shut up and get in line by the very people who did no shutting up or getting in line - in fact doing all they could to do undermine idealistic progress in the party (see 2017 manifesto) i don't have any answers to this - i've left the party and while i always vote anti-tory it is very sad to see what labour has become - splitters! doomed to give a shit.....


08 May 21 - 08:39 AM (#4105253)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

In an Independant article today, John Rntoul write:

But overall, Labour has moved forwards and upwards from the pit of its worst postwar election result. Professor Sir John Curtice, the one-person national institution, has calculated that the English local elections would have translated into a Conservative lead in a vote across Great Britain of 6 to 7 percentage points. In other words, closing the 12-point lead at the general election by about half.

When the BBC put these numbers into its House of Commons model, it suggested that Johnson’s 80-seat majority would be all but wiped out. These figures are for illustrative purposes only, as they say on those pension-fund statements, and the new boundaries that will take effect in June 2023 will make the next election even harder for Labour to win, but it is not an impossible goal.


Rentoul was never a Corbyn supporter, and has generally backed Starmer, so I accept this is not an unbiased couple of sentences. But if John Curtice has been correctly quoted, progress in terms of electability has been made. Whether that has been at the cost of becoming Tory-lite is a matter of personal judgement.
   

Labour should in normal circumstances be doing much better, and to succeed in future it will have to do so. It will have to win in England, which it rarely does. So I would say that there is still a mountain to climb after the 2019 results. But Labour has made a little progress despite Hartlepool.

I think Kipling has it right about meeting "with Triumph and Disaster/And treating both imposters just the same."


08 May 21 - 09:04 AM (#4105262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So labour is doomed to fulfilling the role of a barely effective opposition party;
going through the motions of holding the government to account..

A function some Britons still regard
as an essential component of British government..

But which corrupt Machiavellian goodtime geezer Boris haughtily dismisses as "playing politics"..

It's blatantly obvious his majority seat government has complete contempt for the existence of a properly functioning opposition party,

Perhaps, the concept of opposition is eventually becoming so marginalized and eroded, considered no more than a trifling petty irritant by the dominating tories,
that it will eventually be abolished altogether.

And if that did happen, probably most of the British public would not give a monkey's...

Perhaps old etonian toff history swots might consider some semblance of opposition worth preserving
as an institutional relic.
Part of the rich fabric of political museum traditions...???

How easy is it to slip into a one party state without the population caring...?????

.. and with too many of them probably even thinking it's a great idea...

Hail Boris..

.. until he is stabbed in the back and usurped by the next, perhaps much worse,
dastardly villainous tory leadership challenger.....


08 May 21 - 09:44 AM (#4105263)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

You memory seems to be letting you down, John. Ever since Corbyn was elected leader, the senior right-wing members of the party - let's call them the Yvette Cooper faction - not only refused to work with him, turning down shadow cabinet posts, etc., but routinely briefed against him. A number of them gleefully jumped on the utterly bogus "Corbyn is antisemitic" bandwagon. They didn't give a sod about the fact that they were helping to wreck future election prospects. They were ideologues with one-track minds, with the aim of purging the party of lefties. Jeremy did much better than expected in 2017, lest you forget. But those right-wingers fought the war of attrition for the next two years, supported by the right-wing press, leading to the disaster of 2019. That is exactly what they wanted. So who really were the splitters? They did all that while half a million people, nearly all lefties, had joined the party. Wow. And in the first few weeks of leading the party, Starmer "purged" the party of Corbyn on spurious grounds and he sacked Becky Long-Bailey, ten times the person he is, also on spurious grounds. Two inconvenient lefties out of the way...

I've been a trade unionist for fifty years. Going right back to the early seventies, my union, The NUT, was riven by two factions, what you might now call the centre left and the hard left. The constant wail of the former was that the union "needed unity," which, to them, meant purging the party of lefties (I received two warning letters from the General Secretary, Fred Jarvis, myself). Those who regard themselves as mainstream in the party who "call for unity" always have that agenda. We're right, the lefties are wrong, let's fight the lefties whatever it takes. Tar and feather them, demonise them, undermine them at every turn, get the Mail on your side. I've seen it time and time again. 'Twas ever thus, and I hear an echo of that in your post.

One of the hardest of the hard lefties in east London was my friend Blair Peach. He was murdered by a policeman in 1979. He also was warned by the union establishment, many times. These days, the union gives an annual Blair Peach award to the teacher who has done the most to promote racial harmony. Funny, that.


08 May 21 - 10:20 AM (#4105266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Since you clearly don’t grasp a simple, but utterly undeniable fact, Steve, I’ll repeat it and keep repeating it until the stubborn, “I’m a teacher, nobody can tell me anything” part of you finally gets it - Party Members don’t elect governments, voters elect governments.

The voters rejected Corbyn’s version of Labour (for whatever reasons, and I believe there are many, including the public splits in the party), and they are currently rejecting, and will continue to reject for as long as the party displays the current level of disunity and disloyalty, Starmer’s version. And there isn’t a cat-in-hell’s chance that voters will elect a Labour government - the very thing the people of the U.K. desperately need to right the shameful wrongs of this past eleven years - unless Labour MPs, party workers, and party members stop publicly pissing, moaning, and working against their own party.

Members don’t ‘own’ the party, nor do party workers, ‘activists’, or even MPs. The party is owned by everyone who gives it their trust and votes Labour. And those who undermine the party because it’s not their personal ‘flavour’, or the ‘right kind’ of Labour, do it a grave disservice. More importantly, they do a grave disservice to those who need a Labour government the most.

So carry on, be my guest, but be prepared for Tory rule for a very long time to come.


08 May 21 - 10:31 AM (#4105267)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

sorry back woodsman , but i think the voters are rejecting keir starmer he lacks charisma and has not been effective as a leader of opposition. johnson appears to have something that appeals to voters,that is not corbyns fault, but when cummings leaks do not bring johnson down, then starmer certainly will not, corbyn did bring in younger members, starmers move to the middle ground has not worked, because people are voting not on policy but on charisma. johnson does nothing for me but he clearly turns some voters on


08 May 21 - 12:32 PM (#4105275)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

On the charisma front, I thought Andy Burnham's comments interesting. As he makes clear, this would be a long way off yet, but I suspect he could do it.


He was asked if he would still like to lead the party one day, and he said that he was not even an MP, and that his focus was on Greater Manchester. That is the standard response for someone in Burnham’s position to a question like this.

But then he went on:

In the distant future, if the party were ever to feel that it needed here, I’m here and they should get in touch.

When it was put to Burnham that that sounded as if he were still open to the idea of being Labour leader, he replied:

I have tried twice to be the leader and it’s never worked so I’m not under any illusions, if you like. It’s never worked for me in the past. I feel I’m in the best job in the world.

But I’m here to help the Labour party, if they need it.


08 May 21 - 01:21 PM (#4105280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

(Ignoring the unnecessary nonsense in your first paragraph...)

600,000 people joined the party when Jeremy became leader. There is very little doubt that the overwhelming majority of those people were left-wing in sentiment. That should have at least given the party seniors the message that a change of direction was sorely needed. That a new enthusiasm was in the air. To them (including me), the old ways since the demise of Blair's New Labour were a failure. Corbyn represented something radically new. That message did not get across. Instead, and in spite of the hope provided by the 2017 result, the party bigwigs turned on him and killed off that message, a gift to the Tories and right-wing press. I'm sorry you can't see this. You appear to be saying that all principle should be ditched in order to ditch the Tories. We were saying that it was time for principle to regain its place. Maybe you've forgotten how principle, in tbe face of constant personal and sordid attackes, almost but not quite turned things round in 2017 in a very surprising way. Another message that didn't get across to the Yvette cabal. My view is that Jeremy, ultimately, might not have been the right person. But begod we've gone right back to New Labour-lite. And the long knives are still out for lefties in the party. And as you seem to be saying, there is no clear way out of this. It's a shambles, and the people in charge are people with the same sentiment as yours.


08 May 21 - 02:13 PM (#4105282)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I have thought long and hard about this. I am sure it is the centrist/right of the Labour party (aka Tory light) that have caused this rift. The realisation made me resign my membership and I shall not rejoin until the party gets back to its grass roots. I can see your point about stopping the rifts, John, but what are left of centre people like me and Steve supposed to do? Give up and roll over, leaving us with 2 Tory parties, or fight for what believe are the true Labour party values? Starmer was shipped in by the right, assured a safe seat and will continue to be ineffective for as long as he is supported. I will continue to vote for Labour and against this awful regime but I cannot condone capitulation to the right.


08 May 21 - 02:24 PM (#4105283)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I forgot to say and should let you know that you are correct, Nigel. Credit where credit is due. If you hadn't gathered, yes, I agree with your analysis. Any other version of the Labour party could have wiped the floor with Bozzer. We need a major overhaul.


08 May 21 - 02:41 PM (#4105285)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

While I was posting the news that Starmer has sacked Angela Rayner landed in my in box. Next Labour party chair and deputy leader? My money is on Theresa May...


08 May 21 - 02:55 PM (#4105287)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Theresa May?
You're welcome to her ;)


08 May 21 - 03:22 PM (#4105291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

We will have to agree to continue disagreeing, Steve and Dave. It makes no real difference to my life whichever party is in power, I’m sufficiently comfortably-off to survive, no matter what the government of the day does or doesn’t do. The main emotions I feel right now are regret that people who desperately need a Labour government are being let down very badly, and frustration that obviously-intelligent people are drawing conclusions completely contrary to the evidence of the past eleven years, and fighting the wrong battles.

But hey, that’s life, and I’m not losing friends or sleep over things completely out of my control.

G’night y’all.


08 May 21 - 03:49 PM (#4105296)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

We are not fighting the wrong battles, John. We are fighting with the wrong weapons.


08 May 21 - 04:09 PM (#4105302)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

You can barely even call it fighting..

But mostly just sat up strait-laced on a high horse,
sanctimoniously tut tutting at the unmanageable mass of unenlightened plebs..

That is one thing guaranteed to piss off the working class

In too many ways, Labour have become this generations equivalent of the Mary Whitehouse brigade...


08 May 21 - 04:12 PM (#4105304)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Sorry Dave, you’re fighting the wrong people. Your enemies, and the enemies of poor, disadvantaged, disenfranchised people, are the Conservative & Unionist Party and its (mostly non-dom) billionaire donors/controllers. Far-left ideology has no answer because they won’t allow it, and voters won’t vote for it - both demonstrated very clearly in the 2019 GE.

But, as I said earlier, I’m done - it’s Saturday evening and there’s a good drama series we’re watching on Sky Atlantic. ;-).


08 May 21 - 05:49 PM (#4105327)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"Far-left ideology has no answer because they won’t allow it, and voters won’t vote for it - both demonstrated very clearly in the 2019 GE."

So what do you think has been demonstrated this week? :-)


09 May 21 - 01:57 AM (#4105357)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I think the voters of hartlepool voted more on personality than policy, but a bit more complicated than that because they also voted on their own slef interest rather than their perceived national interst.
one voter said well if he does good things for hartlepool that will do me[ so never mind the rest of the uk,+
it is interesting. so despite boris is a proven liar they believe him and do not trust starmer, this is personality politics. i do not like starmer but i believe he is honest yet he looks shifty. johnson is imo untrustworthy yet voters like him, plus they think borishas done a good jobwith covid . its like the mad hatters tea party


09 May 21 - 05:22 AM (#4105372)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I repeat, for the benefit of those who didn’t get it the first time around...

”We will have to agree to continue disagreeing,...it makes no real difference to my life whichever party is in power, I’m sufficiently comfortably-off to survive, no matter what the government of the day does or doesn’t do. The main emotions I feel right now are regret that people who desperately need a Labour government are being let down very badly, and frustration that obviously-intelligent people are drawing conclusions completely contrary to the evidence of the past eleven years, and fighting the wrong battles.

But hey, that’s life, and I’m not losing friends...over things completely out of my control.”

And...

But as I said earlier, I’m done.”


09 May 21 - 05:30 AM (#4105373)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

thursday's elections had some hopeful signs. winners like andy burnham, nicola sturgeon, sadiq khan, welsh labour, 'radical' preston, and the good performance by the greens (including my county councillor) none of these bodies could be considered dangerously left-wing and policies they support like green new deal, better deals with europe, protected human rights, no trident, good green jobs, PR, increased union participation, free elderly care, free student fees etc etc are all policies that should fit easily into a progressive labour manifesto without scaring either of the 2 groups in the party. given that starmer was elected as a competent manager to unite the party it's about time he got serious with the job. or leave it to someone who can.


09 May 21 - 06:06 AM (#4105377)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

And, for John's delectation, Sir Keir Unity has harmonised the party by sacking Angela Rayner from a post she was frozen out of by Sir Unity's office during the election campaign. An inexplicable and divisive decision if ever there was one. The bungled campaign which failed to recognise and challenge the changed Tory party was entirely his fault, and now he sacks a popular and competent working-class woman. Let's hope that in the reshuffle he can (a) find her a top job, (b) he'll hope that she will accept gracefully. You couldn't make this up. I ask you again: who really are the splitters in the party? What a bloody cock-up...

You ask who else? Well let's look at a couple of those election-winning mayoral candidates for starters...


09 May 21 - 06:27 AM (#4105378)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

That's a good post, pete. We've got to be optimistic. Sturgeon is beginning to worry me though. If I lived in Scotland I'd vote for independence in any referendum. But though she can muster a majority in Parliament with the greens, because of bias in the electoral system in Scotland which favours the SNP she might just have slightly the wrong idea about her backing in the country for a referendum, let alone her prospects of winning it. Sir John Curtice calculated that independence-minded voters may represent just a smidgeon over 50% of the electorate. She might be better off letting Boris ban her attempts to get a referendum and moaning vigorously in a state of victimhood than ploughing on and losing the vote. There's no way that she could claim that a vote with a tiny majority, taking into account that there would be a lot of stay-at-homes, would represent "the will of the people." We've been here before, haven't we? I'm not sure that she's quite the canny operator I used to take her for...

On another tack, a nice bit of royal corruption is now rearing its head..."Haven't met Putin since 2003" my arse. Does he think we don't know all about the bush telegraph?


09 May 21 - 06:47 AM (#4105379)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

cheers steve, the system for holyrood elections is specifically designed to prevent one party having an overall majority, yet the snp have been good at winning to ensure a seemingly permanent dominance. however, as you say they do seem to be 'stuck' at around 50% for any independence vote- not good enough to be confident of a harmonious future no matter their strengths and the obvious nonsense of continuous tory misrule. labour scotland have done themselves no favours by getting into bed with scottish tories and reducing themselves to carping at anything the snp try to achieve. popular snp policies should be aspirations for the labour party - no trident, free this and that etc, a more nationalist outlook and an atmosphere of caring, engaged competence. there are many things that they (and the greens) should agree on - it should be a priority to make some alliance with scotland...to have a refendum with the promise of as much co-operation, friendship and mutual respect as is possible should scots make the choice to leave the uk. labour do often talk about federalism without really making it clear what this means - maybe nicola sturgeon and andy burnham could get together and work something out


09 May 21 - 07:42 AM (#4105381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I can fully understand anyone in Scotland wanting Independence.

However I am also aware that Scottish Independence will mean the removal of 59 MP's who historically have numbered few Conservatives which would also mean that we are unlikely to ever have a Labour Government in England and Wales again .............. and if Wales go for independence ....?


09 May 21 - 08:53 AM (#4105382)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Let's not forget it was Scotland that already severely f@cked up Labour's chances of ever again winning government,
when the SNP mopped up at a previous election..

Every Corbyn/Starmer failure since is just another nail in Labour's coffin..

I'm 62, it would be nice to see the tories kicked out before I'm 70..

But that is a futile dream unless some form of progressive party
get's it's act together and starts thrashing tories at elections...


09 May 21 - 09:09 AM (#4105383)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Backstabbing treachorous liberals conning us that a tactical vote for them
would keep the tories out..

.. and Scots Nationalists..

Those are the main dire factors I blame for fatally wounding Labour,
even before Corbyn became the fall guy...


09 May 21 - 09:55 AM (#4105390)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2V0sZ6RkS3g&ab_channel=OwenJones

guest interview - John McDonnell


09 May 21 - 01:26 PM (#4105403)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

i thought this was an interesting programme and made me feel much more positive about left of centre politics. it's a shame that too many good labour people - like john mcdonell and many others are being sidelined.
by the way it's a bit unfair to blame the scots for the chances of the labour party. they have always attacked the tories and got them securely under control up there. if labour offered more positive choices and if we weren't so much more susceptible to tory and the media nonsense labour could do much better south of the border.


09 May 21 - 01:59 PM (#4105406)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

by the way it's a bit unfair to blame the scots for the chances of the labour party

I don't know about anyone else, but I certainly don't blame the scots for voting as they think fit. That it makes things more difficult for Labour is an unfortunate, unavoidable side effect, but that is Labour-in-England's problem to address. They have, somehow, to become more appealing. Whether you are pro or anti Corbyn, the 2016 certainly showed an appetite for change. The vaccine story has undoubtedly made people more cautious and reluctant for change, but that will not last forever. It is a matter of finding the changes that people want.

It is worth noting that while the name 'Conservative' has not changed, the party has re-invented itself quite a few times. I find it a stretch to imagine Thatcher agreeing to the furlough, for example.


09 May 21 - 02:59 PM (#4105408)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

The UK normally gets the gvt England votes for. Blair's gvts had majorities without the Scottish members. You can't blame the Scots because the English aren't returning the gvts you want. Besides as per the Milliband election the SNP would likely offer to work with Labour on an issue by issue basis. Milli band's reaction was lukewarm at best at the idea.


09 May 21 - 03:35 PM (#4105411)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Kinda getting used to stubborn nationalists,
hell-bent on getting their own way at any cost,
saying "don't blame us for your problems"..

.. funny that...


09 May 21 - 04:36 PM (#4105419)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

It is true though PFR. Scotland returns very few Tory MPs and the vast bulk of Scottish members are pretty anti Tory so the idea that it is Scotland's fault that Labour can't seem to beat Tories doesn't make much sense. In the Scottish Parliament the parties are used to working with other parties on issues. Two of the SNP terms were minority administrations where they worked with other parties on a non formal basis. Labour don't need 50 Scottish Labour MPs to outvote the Tories they just need to learn to work with other like minded parties.


10 May 21 - 04:57 AM (#4105462)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Allen, it sound like you are saying that it is my fault that I have to suffer a tory government because I voted for and got a Labour MP. SNP represents 44 constituencies and Labour 202. So surely the Labour constituencies are five times more entitled to independence from the tory government than the SNP ones?


10 May 21 - 04:58 AM (#4105463)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Can I make it quite clear I am not blaming the Scottish people for Consevative Governments I am merely stating that the 59 seats they return to Westminster are rarely conservative and have historically aided the formation of Labour Governments.

If those 59 are removed the balance of power in Westminster will be skewed towards the conservatives if and when Scotland leave the Union.


10 May 21 - 05:14 AM (#4105465)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

But if the Scots don't leave us and the 59 seats remain in the mix, Scotland will be governed by Westminster Tories for the foreseeable future. They may have a devolved government but they still had brexit inflicted on them against "the will of the Scottish people" and Scotland is not fundamentally a Tory country. Being nice to the left of centre in England is no reason at all to stay in the union.

However, I'd worry if a referendum threw up a tiny majority to leave, in the same way that it was an outrage that a tiny majority (of those who voted, not of the electorate) dragged us so damagingly out of Europe. The Tories could nobble Nicola by allowing a referendum but insisting on a super-majority. That would never be achieved so it would be game over. But, of course, she wouldn't accept that, and as the Tories didn't do it for brexit...


10 May 21 - 10:46 AM (#4105504)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

I am not saying it is anyone's fault. Exactly the opposite in fact. What I said it was not Scotland's fault that a Tory gvt is returned. The exact quote was

"Let's not forget it was Scotland that already severely f@cked up Labour's chances of ever again winning government,
when the SNP mopped up at a previous election.."

That is simply not the case. Labour lost virtually all its seats in Scotland yes - but they for the most part went to the SNP, who would be pretty certain to vote with a Labour gvt against the Tories on most things. The idea that the SNP would not support the formation of a Labour UK gvt is fantasy. They would be unlikely to want to go into any formal coalition - and would probably not be offered one anyway - but their views pretty much align on most things and it would be workable. 48 SNP members plus 1 Labour member against 6 Tories from Scotland adds considerably to the anti-Tory block in Westminster. In short it would be political suicide for an SNP block in Westminster to align with the Tories over Labour in say a vote of confidence. Just wouldn't happen.


10 May 21 - 10:51 AM (#4105505)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Re the super-majority Steve. That is a non-starter. That is what happened in the first devolution referendum. Those supporting a devolved parliament won but not by a big enough margin as laid down by the UK gvt. That caused a boil to fester which very soon led to a second campaign for devolution to start up. There was deep resentment that a referendum vote had been won but in essence those who didn't vote or were even dead but still on the register were counted as voting against.


10 May 21 - 11:00 AM (#4105507)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Raggytrash you are absolutely right in that Scottish votes perviously aided getting Labour gvts - and that not having a huge Labour block of Scottih MPs makes it more difficult to get a 'majority' Labour gvt.

But again it does not actually make it more difficult to outvote the Tories as the bulk of the Scottish members would vote with Labour.

Plus yes they have historically aided Labour victories but they have not on the whole been necessary for Labour victories. That has happened on the odd occasion when there has been a very tight result but in most cases Labour has had a majority without taking the Scottish members into account.

In truth the thing that is maybe keeping the Tories seem unassailable in England at the moment is for the most part the first past the post voting system which Labour has never been that keen to change either.


10 May 21 - 11:11 AM (#4105509)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I'm certain that that first word was a typo, Allan!

I wasn't suggesting a super-majority setup. That's one thing Johnson definitely wouldn't get away with, after such a thing was not permitted for the brexit vote, despite protests. I was speaking hypothetically.


10 May 21 - 11:39 AM (#4105514)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Re the figures from the Blair/Brown years.

In 1997 Labour won 418 seats against 241 for the other parties. So they had a majority of 177. Scotland sent 56 Labour seats to Westminster against 16 from other parties. So there was a big majority without the Scottish members.

In 2001 Labour won 412 seats against 247 for the other parties. So they had a majority of 165. Scotland again sent 56 Labour seats to Westminster against 16 from other parties. So there was a big majority without the Scottish members.

In 2005 Labour won 355 seats against 291 for the other parties. So they had a majority of 64. Scotland again sent 41 Labour seats to Westminster against 18 from other parties. So there was again a safe enough majority without the Scottish members.

Just showing that historically it was not true that Scottish Labour MPS are required for returning a Labour gvt.

Plus the idea that the huge Labour contingents used to reflect Scottish opinion doesn't stand either. In 1997 the 78% of the Scottish seats were gained by only 45% of the actual vote.

The SNP currently gets this advantage of sending a representation to Westminster which is away above their % share of the vote. Though even though it benefits them they support the ending of first past the post.


10 May 21 - 11:53 AM (#4105517)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Though even though it benefits them they support the ending of first past the post.

I heard a lecture by John Curtice weeks ago where he suggested the only real route to power for Labour was to form an alliance with parties looking for electoral reform. When that happens the two wings of Labour could separate and not ultimately split the left vote. The experience with the SDP and Change UK and others shows such splits without electoral reform do not work.


10 May 21 - 02:45 PM (#4105539)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Yeah the split thing was a possibility with the SNP and Salmond's Alba party. Despite the media hype didn't amount to anything. Salmond being even less popular than Boris is within Scotland now didn't help their cause.


10 May 21 - 03:21 PM (#4105546)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

But surely a strong confident labour majority govt,
or even Labour in opposition, still holding those nearly 60 lost Scottish seats,
would be a far more effective convincing intimidating foe for the tories..

A counter argument is that smaller left of centre parties,
would be of more use in fighting tory perpetual domination,
if they swallow their egos, pride, and separatist policy obsessions,
by joining as members of the allegedly broad church Labour party...???

Strength in numbers, and all that...

Otherwise, tories will always win when they can divide and rule...

Pragmatically, a two party system is better than the one party system which we will end up with after a few more years under the tories;
laughing their bollocks off at the left fragmenting into piddling little factions and single issue parties...

Right then, give it a few more years see what happens up north of the border,
then have another think about the Wessex and Cornish separatist movements..

OK.. yes, they'd still end up just as dominated by ruling class west country tories..

Nothing ever changes for the better around here in Scrumpyshire...


10 May 21 - 03:47 PM (#4105551)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'll just add that some folks hold the opinion that Nicola Sturgeon
might have been a formidable leader of the Labour party.

Who knows what positive benefits she could have achieved for all of Britain if she wasn't so parochially obsessed...???


10 May 21 - 04:17 PM (#4105557)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve: 600,000 people joined the party when Jeremy became leader.
Is there any evidence of that claim?
Nowhere that I can find ever shows the recent total membership in that range, let alone a sudden surge of that amount.
According to The House of Commons As of July 2019, Labour had 485,000 members,

I can see a prediction of total membership of that value in The New Statesman : Labour membership is on course to hit 600,000, a half-century peak, after a second successive day in which more than 100,000 people have applied to become party members. That does seem to imply that 600,000 may have been the membership 50 years ago though.

And according to The Guardian The membership level had fallen in 2019 from 518,659 at end of 2018 to a figure which remained above 500,000 as at August 2019


10 May 21 - 04:39 PM (#4105559)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

You didn't look very hard, Nigel.

Labour leadership: Huge increase in party's electorate

From the BBC article - Labour received more than 160,000 applications to vote in its leadership contest in the final 24 hours of registrations, the party has said.

The number of applications via trade unions more than doubled and the number of party members and £3 registered supporters also rose.

It takes the potential total electorate in the leadership contest to 610,753.


Took me aabout 15 seconds to find that on Google.

I fully accept that 600000 people did not join the party then but there were over 600000 members. There was a massive surge and the membership has now declined under Starmer.

As ever, if all you can do is nit pick at flawed wording, your argument is lost.


10 May 21 - 04:44 PM (#4105562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

...and before you start rabbiting on about the importance of accuracy you need to bear in mind that Steve probably made a mistake on an insignificant internet forum that makes no difference whatsoever to peoples livelihoods. Compare that to the record of your hero.

The lies, falsehoods and misrepresentations of Boris Johnson


10 May 21 - 06:03 PM (#4105569)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Yes, it was careless of me to say "joined the party." A quick shufty around found this (Rowena Mason in 2019 in the Guardian):

"Figures from the party’s latest accounts show it had 518,659 members in December 2018, down from a peak of 564,443 the previous year."

I heard 600,000 somewhere but I can't find it, and I'm not inclined to spend more time on it.


10 May 21 - 08:35 PM (#4105595)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

It takes the potential total electorate in the leadership contest to 610,753.
Took me aabout 15 seconds to find that on Google.
I fully accept that 600000 people did not join the party then but there were over 600000 members.


It doesn't even make a claim for 600,000+ members (rather than the claim of 600,000 new members) as it goes on to say (about the figure of 610,753) that: Labour says checks are still taking place on all new members to weed out non-party supporters. That is presumably why they quote the figure as 'potential'.

As to it being pointless correcting Steve. If the original statement is allowed to stand then others can claim that they read it somewhere, and claim it as fact. Which is what Steve also appears to have been doing (mistakenly).


10 May 21 - 08:47 PM (#4105596)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I didn't ever believe that all those people suddenly joined, Nigel. I should have said that the numbers rose to... And whether I was a bit optimistic or not kind of depends how, who and when you count. I was in the ballpark and I can be no further arsed.


11 May 21 - 02:53 AM (#4105614)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Steve, the electorate in the leadership contest reached over 600000 as per the BBC article I linked. That is probably what you saw. As I said to Nigel, mistakes such as that matter little compared to deliberately misleading the country for your own benefit.


11 May 21 - 03:23 AM (#4105616)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

To paraphrase a business-slogan I learned many years ago...

Membership numbers are vanity.
Voters’ crosses are sanity.
Party unity is King!


11 May 21 - 03:32 AM (#4105618)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Second thoughts...

Membership numbers are vanity.
Voters’ crosses are sanity.
Government is King!

Not much chance of the third element while the first seems to be more important to some people than the second.


11 May 21 - 03:48 AM (#4105621)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

As expected, it seems like Johnson will be bringing ending the Fixed Parliament Act into the Queens speech. Doing so was a manifesto commitment, so he is perfectly entitled to do that. Like many commentators I think he will call the election in 2023, though the back end of 2022 does not seem impossible. That gives Labour very little time to sort itself out, and a year of squabbles will play into Johnson's hands very nicely.

I go along with John Curtice. The only way out of this is to form an alliance of at least Labour, LibDem, Green and SNP. All stand in the next election under one banner of, let's say, "True Democracy". There would be only one candidate from TD in each constituency and there would be one item in their manifesto, namely introducing proportional representation then calling another election once that had been voted for. Thereafter, each revert to their normal parties or reorganise themselves as they see fit. I have ideas how to decide who stands for TD in each ward, and how Parliamentary jobs are allocated, but that is fine detail: it is the broad brush that matters.


I can't see it happening, myself!


11 May 21 - 03:50 AM (#4105622)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

yes good idea dmcg i look at the country i was born in and i thank god i escaped but i still feel so sad


11 May 21 - 04:13 AM (#4105626)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Sorry John but following your logic, as Bozzer got more crosses than anyone else, we all need to unite behind him. What you are saying is that the lesser of two evils, ie Tory light as opposed to Tory right, is good. Fair enough, that is your opinion and I can see the logic in it. I would prefer to see the right wing politics currently prevalent across both major parties opposed and I think that can still be done.


11 May 21 - 04:16 AM (#4105628)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Besides, your comments seem to be echoing a certain mantra that some have used before. We got more votes and you lost. Get over it. Surely not? :-)


11 May 21 - 05:03 AM (#4105632)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

No Dave, I’m talking about the LP, not Johnson. I’m not taking one side, I’m not pitting R v. L, no matter how others try to spin what I say. I’m saying that everyone, no matter their ‘leaning’, needs to get together to unite the Labour Party and make it electable, so that it can rid the country of this foul scourge of Conservative government. Sadly, there seems to be more interest here in student-ideology and an obsession with membership numbers. I’ll say it again and again until certain people get it...

1) Members don’t elect governments, the voting public elect governments. So boasting about membership numbers is nothing more than vanity.

2) The unseemly spectacle of two opposing elements within the party ripping each others’ faces off is unlikely to attract voters to vote Labour, rather the opposite.

3) Unless and until the LP attracts sufficient votes to form a government, it is failing the very people it exists to represent - the poor, the disadvantaged, the disenfranchised. And it is failing those of us who trusted it with our votes.

4) People are putting personalities, together with their rather naive ideology and dogma, before Party, and before the needs of the country. There’s a need for some grown-up old-fashioned pragmatism, the lack of which is risking the Labour Party becoming completely irrelevant.

The Party is bigger than any one member or group of members, and it must be ‘Party before Personality’. Every time.


11 May 21 - 05:21 AM (#4105636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Agreed, John. The Labour party needs to become electable. You seem to be saying that is by getting behind Starmer. I disagree and, by the performance last Thursday, it seems that the electorate prefer Johnson to Starmer. How will getting behind the current leader halp that situation?


11 May 21 - 05:59 AM (#4105638)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

But if starmer was best choice from a mediocre bunch;

who is there to oust him and inspire the whole nation...?????

.. ie, not just middle class elite student union politics 'socialists'...


Is there a ready and waiting down to earth charismatic potential leader,
who can win sufficient 'working class' votes back from the populist right ...???


11 May 21 - 06:09 AM (#4105639)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Becky would have fitted the bill but we missed that bus :-(


11 May 21 - 06:14 AM (#4105641)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Thing is, John, you've laid your cards on the table time and time again to tell us what a disaster you think Corbyn and his ilk have been. So what you're really saying is, come on, lefties, ditch your principles and throw your lot in with the (establishment Tory-lite) centre of the party. Be seen to be evaporating. Ain't happening. This party grew from working-class trade union roots and it's the Blairs/Browns/Milibands/Starmers who are wanting to usurp the party name and ditch that history, as if it's some kind of embarrassment. I joined this party when Jeremy Corbyn became leader because I thought I could see a resurgence of what Labour should really be about, a left-wing party of principle (I'm still clinging on in hope...). If you want an anodyne centre party, join the LibDems. Oh, and let's not forget what happened to them when they went for "unity" with the Tories. Or the SDP when they went for "unity" with the Liberals...

And I'm still waiting to have it explained to me how suspending Jeremy Corbyn on spurious grounds, sacking Becky Long-Bailey on spurious grounds and scapegoating Angie Rayner are going to advance the cause of party unity. I ask for the third time: who really ARE the splitters in the party?


11 May 21 - 06:25 AM (#4105642)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"The only way out of this is to form an alliance of at least Labour, LibDem, Green and SNP."

That would condemn me to voting for the LibDems round here. I did that six times in general elections to try to keep out the Tory. Last time I did it, in 2010, the LibDem candidate's repeated (ad nauseam) mantra was "Don't let the Tories in here." Well whaddya know. He got elected, and they ditched their principles and went into an unholy and opportunistic alliance with the Tories, which he supported. Progressive party my arse. It's a cliche, but the LibDems showed themselves to be a bunch of naive Tory-lites, and the one delicious thing about the 2015 election was that they got their just deserts. I don't wish to be disenfranchised via the unholy alliance you're suggesting, thanks. In fact, the first thing I'd do is tear up my membership card.


11 May 21 - 07:52 AM (#4105649)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

That's fair enough, Steve, and I don't guarantee it would work of course. But the alliance I suggested is very short term - maybe as short as a month. It has one purpose only: to change from FTP to a proportional system. Thereafter, as I said, there would be another election and in that you could vote for whoever you wished. You would not be tied to LibDem for four or five years.

We all recognise, I think, that without the Labour party reunifying somehow, the Tories will stay in power long term under FPTP. Some want the Labour party to unify to the left, some to the centre. So it does not unify at all while that argument goes on. What way out of the impasse do you suggest that recognises not everyone will agree with one preferred idea of what Labour should be?


11 May 21 - 08:35 AM (#4105653)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

OK no one blames the Scots and a loss of seats would imblance the rest of England but people over here ask, "Will there be a new border?"
There hasn't been one since Hadrian's wall.
I suppose since its not a done deal its too soon to say.


11 May 21 - 08:40 AM (#4105654)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Jesus, Mary, Joseph, and the wee fuckin’ donkey!

No, for fuck’s sake, I’m not talking about ‘backing Starmer’ - that’s the spin you keep putting on it. Please stop the spinning. I’m saying that the Party and the needs of those it exists to serve are far more important than Personalities. When Corbyn was the leader, despite my own personal view that he was just about the worst possible man for the job - weak, ineffectual, a lousy public speaker, made mincemeat of by May and Johnson at PMQs Wednesday after Wednesday, incapable of putting the smears and slurs against him to bed - I spoke up for him and, when he was under attack from within the Party I said exactly the same things that I’m saying now, that the in-fighting should stop and the Party should pull together to defeat the Tories. And if that means supporting a leader who’s not my particular preference, so be it - I did it for Corbyn, and I’ll do it no matter who the leader is. Party before Personality.

The people walking into food banks to feed their kids, the ones struggling to find the rent, the people suffering on hospital waiting lists, etc., etc. don’t give a shit about about high-handed preaching by those who consider themselves politically and ideologically superior, they couldn’t care less about ‘Becky’ and ‘Angie’ (come off it with the faux-familiarity Steve, don’t be a pillock - you don’t know them, never even met them, and in public it’s Rebecca and Angela). What they care about is the difference a Labour government would make to their miserable lives - any Labour government is better than the Tories unless you’re made of money.

So please stop the bullshit, stop the spinning of my words, and think about the people for whom - unlike us comfortably-well-off ex-teachers, retired accountants, IT consultants, yadda yadda - having a Labour government instead of the permanent Tory rule that Labour Party civil-war will subject them to could be a dream come true.

But I guess you’ll only hear what you want to hear, see what you want to see - leopards don’t change their spots.


11 May 21 - 09:25 AM (#4105663)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Who were the people in the party who, for years, got the bit between their teeth over the completely false allegations of Corbyn's antisemitism? Who ditched Ken Livingstone? Do you think they were honest brokers? What about the ones who kept silent and let it rumble? Don't you think they knew what damage they were doing? Anything to unseat Corbyn, even a disastrous election defeat was worth it? Allowing the Mail open season on Corbyn and not standing up to it? These are the very people who now blame the left for divisions and bleat about unity at any price. Well let me tell you, it'll be a while, and at least some of us want to see principle re-established in the party and a leadership that is not constantly behind the curve and which only seems to know how to behave expediently and divisively. That's where most of the effort to unify the party needs to come from, and by effort I don't mean sacking lefties. If Labour can't be a left-wing party, and I don't mean hard left, then it may as well not exist.


11 May 21 - 09:31 AM (#4105665)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

By the way, in the party they are Angie and Becky. My daughter is called Rebecca. The only person who ever calls her that is her mother, and even then only when she's angry. They would have made a dream team, instead of which we've got stodge on toast. Two northern working-class women at the top of a socialist-leaning party. What a shot in the arm for our politics that would have been. Boris would have been pooping his pantaloons every bloody week.


11 May 21 - 11:24 AM (#4105685)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, John. We do need to pull together. In which direction are you suggesting we pull? Right or left? If something is being pulled in opposite directions, then at least 2 people are doing it. Which is right and which is wrong?

BTW, I have met Becky on a number of occasions and she wouldn't mind the familiarity at all. She is a lot closer to those working class grass roots that you hold so dear than Sir Keir. And it is quite noticeable where the bad feeling in this thread seems to be emanating from.


11 May 21 - 11:28 AM (#4105686)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Second BTW. What happened to being done with this and not losing any friends?


11 May 21 - 01:55 PM (#4105704)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Donuel what do you mean by there hasn't been a border since Hadrian's Wall. The Scottish/English border ceased officially being an international border in 1707.!


11 May 21 - 04:04 PM (#4105711)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

So Mandelson has suggested to Starmer that he severs links with trade unions and left-wing factions. You see? That's the right of the party's idea of "unity..."

Sounds like Angela Rayner (scared to call her Angie...Sorry, Angie...) was hopping mad with Keir at the weekend. She certainly got the better of him. Her team (though not her) have even suggested that she could challenge him for the leadership. Now how great would that be!


11 May 21 - 06:31 PM (#4105730)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"The people walking into food banks to feed their kids, the ones struggling to find the rent, the people suffering on hospital waiting lists, etc., etc. don’t give a shit about about high-handed preaching by those who consider themselves politically and ideologically superior..."

"...unlike us comfortably-well-off ex-teachers, retired accountants, IT consultants, yadda yadda..."

For the first ten years of my life I lived in a slum infested with beetles, with no hot water tap and an outside toilet that froze up every winter. Latchkey kid. There was a flooded mine shaft five yards from my front door in which a four-year-old boy drowned while I lived there. My last primary school class had 48 kids in it. We were bloody hard up, and so what if I've done well to get myself out of that. My head has never been in the clouds about the rampant inequalities in our society and I've stood on picket lines in the freezing cold at six in the morning to support school cleaners, hospital workers and firemen. I have never not been a trade unionist. You call for party unity. That happened under Blair for a time. During that time the chasm between the rich and poor got ever wider. Go figure, huh?


11 May 21 - 06:41 PM (#4105732)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Woof, I have been like little lord Fauntelroy in comparison and have had a easy ride and childhood.


12 May 21 - 12:27 AM (#4105747)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

For some time I've been one of the folks consistently criticising the Labour party
for becoming over-run by santimonious academic ideologues,
and smarmy affluent middle class professional political & business suit 'n' tie clones..

So it's their party now...!!!???

A Labour party disdainful of, and preaching scornfully down at the rough, un-PC, working class


No real surprise then, original traditional Labour voters
have become so alienated by this unwelcome invasion of snooty elitist 'superiors and betters',
that they've became easy exploited target mass converts for the oportunist populist far right...

Now as despicable as they are, our enemy, far right organisers and influencers
have proven time again they have far more political awareness and intelligence
than the out of touch Labour party upper hierarchy,
who the working class can no longer identify with...

So, where is Labour's present day equivalents of a John Prescott,
or even a lefty tommy robinson...???

Straight talking proud, defiant, charismatic, politicians..

One of 'us'.. council estate born and raised..
celebrating our rebellious unpretensious working class culture, and vulgar disrespectful sense of humour...

Genuinely authentic down to earth politicians who can appeal to and inspire
the generation of former Labour voters who are now sick of the Labour party,
and flocking to good time geezer boris - and his 'couldn't give a shit about petty rules and laws' personality...

Like it or not, that's the role model so many lost labour voters now aspire to..

boris and the far right understand this, goody two shoes moralistic Labour don't..

I'd suggest the likes of Starmer, would probably be better practical use as Deputy Labour leaders...???
Using their upper echelon establishment professional finesse and contacts network,
to support, protect, and guide, a real working class Labour leader
through the nest of vipers that is parliament and british media...

.. But... oh well.. back to depressing reality.....


12 May 21 - 03:44 AM (#4105756)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

PFR - Why should us working class folk accept "left wing Tommy Robinsons"? Extremism in any form is a anathema. I was brought up on council estates in Salford and like Steve spent my early years in a 2 up 2 down street entranced terrace with no bathroom. My Dad, a Polish painter and decorator, spent his life here as a union activist and Labour supporter while hating fascists and communists with equal venom. I worked in the building trade from doing holiday jobs labouring to being a site inspector for Manchester council until I discovered I was better at IT. Yet I would never dream of supporting an extremist of any ilk. Your depiction of the working class being drudges who live in the gutter, piss their money up the wall and are easily swayed by populism is as out of touch as the very politicians you are railing against. What I and many like me want is a government that looks after everyone's interests equally. Not populist trickery from any side.


12 May 21 - 05:05 AM (#4105757)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

The only difference with low-income and wealthy people 'pissing money against the wall' is that the wealthy waste a lot more and still have more money left over than they know what to do with.


12 May 21 - 05:10 AM (#4105758)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

You could almost be describing Rayner as leader and Starmer as deputy, pfr...but a cautiinary note here...when we had a leftie leader (Corbyn) and a right-wing deputy (Watson) it didn't go well, did it? Whilst Corbyn tried to maintain his dignity, Watson made it abundantly clear to the world that he didn't want to be associated with him. I ask again - who really ARE the splitters in the party?

I must say, I wasn't too comfy with your lefty Tommy Robinson either. Not quite sure what you had in mind there...


12 May 21 - 05:27 AM (#4105760)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

DtG - working classier than thou

Never mind the kneejerks...

At what point in my post, or any time in my life,
have I ever condoned or advocated
the kind of extremism and sterotypes you have just gone off on one accusing me about...!!!???

I am clearly only talking about a certain kind of charismatic individuals with character and background,
who are more captivating to ex Labour voters..

Successful right wing influencers are very good at seducing ordinary working class, and middle class folks..

I've perhaps wasted far more time than you
studying the bastards on the internet...???
Empirical research...

.. tommy was a tongue in cheek, though still serious, pointer
towards a specific character type, irrespective of any political persuasion,
who is a popular leader and figurehead for certain social demographics..

I qualified it with obvious "lefty" and "???"s
if you'd actually read what was clearly intended,
rather than getting het up over
what you thought I meant...

Maybe I could have gone even further and suggested adolf...!!!???

The point still remains, who the f@ck can Labour put up to fill that void
to fight fire with fire..

Could anyone like John Prescott even stand a chance
to rise up the Party hierarchy anymore,
as dominated as it seems by middle class careerists..


OPTIMISM


12 May 21 - 05:34 AM (#4105762)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

ps..

Labour leaders, any leaders, need deputies they can trust and rely on to have their backs
at all times..

Like Batman and Alfred.. Sherlock and Watson..

Corbyn was utterly stupid from the start appointing his judas watson as sidekick...


12 May 21 - 05:55 AM (#4105766)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Labour leaders, any leaders, need deputies they can trust and rely on to have their backs
at all times..

Like Batman and Alfred.. Sherlock and Watson..
Blair & Brown? Julius Caesar & Brutus/Cassius/Casca . . .


12 May 21 - 05:56 AM (#4105767)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Corbyn was utterly stupid from the start appointing his judas watson as sidekick...

If I remember rightly, he didn't. Watson was elected by the Labour party memebership, so in a way it is a mirror image of Starmer and Rayner.


12 May 21 - 06:08 AM (#4105769)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

DMcG - Fair cop.. I've never had a good memory for details...

If so, time for a rule change..

A new Leader needs to select a reliable deputy they can get on with and trust.
Stabilty at the very top of the party is absolutely essential...


12 May 21 - 06:15 AM (#4105771)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

btw..


.. before anyone else makes the mistake of tarring me
with far right extremism..

This is where the Polish branch of my family tree came to an abrupt end...


12 May 21 - 08:05 AM (#4105781)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

PFR - back atcher - What do you think I have accused you of? Maybe if you "actually read what was clearly intended, rather than getting het up over what you thought I meant" you may have seen that it was the Tommy Robinson comment you made that is the contentious point.

So, where is Labour's present day equivalents of a John Prescott,
or even a lefty tommy robinson...???

Straight talking proud, defiant, charismatic, politicians...


Reads remarkably like the odious Robinson is a straight talking proud, defiant, charismatic polition.

When you later go on to say

a specific character type, irrespective of any political persuasion, who is a popular leader and figurehead for certain social demographics..

Which 'certain social demographics do you believe will be influenced by the likes of Tommy Robinson?

I must admit though that you made me laugh when you tried to take the piss of background story and then attempted to trump it with your link about Polish Jews. Is there a 4 Jews, story? Gas chambers? Bloody luxury... :-D


12 May 21 - 09:15 AM (#4105791)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Right, yer buggers, I'm getting in on this Polish malarkey,.. My best mate at school was a Pole (we are still in touch), and I spent many a long evening at the Polish club in Bury (I also frequently inhabited the ones in Bolton and Rochdale). I met a lovely young Polish woman at the Bury club and we went out for several years, eventually getting engaged (she called it off much to my chagrin, but I rapidly ended up with Mrs Steve for the next 45 years and counting!). Many of their parents were Polish emigrés and they were all Catholics, big time. I was one of the few non-Poles in their social circle. They were nearly all viciously anti-Polish Jew, for reasons they didn't always make clear. Funnily enough, when I started teaching in London one of my best boozing buddies was the son of Polish-Jewish emigrés... He didn't give a flying fart about those ingrained animosities... I never did get my head round all that lot... I must have sung that Sto Lat song a thousand times, without having a clue what I was singing about!


12 May 21 - 11:32 AM (#4105801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I'm not just Polish though, Steve. Grandad was a Russian Orthodox priest who died of ill health brought on by mistreatment by Russian communists and having to leave Poland in a hurry because of the Nazis. When Grandad was incarcerated in Russia for his beliefs, Grandma had to make her own way back to Poland, on foot, with 2 young children, sleeping in ditches and living off the land. Beat that you buggers!

Apologies to all, especially PFR, for being a bit tetchy. I have been under considerable stress of late and, while that has lessened, it has been replaced with a whole new worry. Not ready to discuss yet but I assure all that if I have caused any offence, it is not anything you have done.


12 May 21 - 11:48 AM (#4105802)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well I guess the Tommy Robinson quip got me scratching my head a bit, but knowing that pfr is basically an all-round good egg I chose not to do any interpretive delving...

Yeah, we need a Prescott. A dodgy geezer at times but nowhere near as dodgy as the current twat in charge, and PMQs would have been nothing if not highly entertaining...

If I could ask Sir Keir just the one question, it would be "What have you got against feisty, grassroots northern working-class women?"


12 May 21 - 11:59 AM (#4105803)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

When I was in infant school,
a polish family moved onto our Council estate.
Their young lad started at our school.

He was a complete novelty being a foreigner..
..and we'd piss ourselves laughing every time we heard, or tried to say his hilarious unpronounceable foreign name..

Our estate also had a Welshman and an Irish family..

Some might have said that was too many foreigners already...???

Many years later I saw my first black person walking on the estate.
He was a postman.
That got neighbours talking...

"Mother was a local girl,
she went with an American GI stationed here during the war - the scandal of it..
..but he's a nice postie all considering his colour.."

From then on he was the novelty friendly black postie.
Can't have been many other towns in Scrumpyshire that had one to compete with ours..

Then word got round, the next nearest bigger town had just got themselves an Indian doctor and his entire family..

Locals were split between those who feared being swamped and taken over like Enoch was warning;
and others who thought them an exotic new status symbol..

Back then our estate was solidly working class, most families working in the factory our homes were built to service.
Where my dad was a shop steward.

The factory Social club was the hub of the estate..

Our extended family was solidly Labour voters.
I'd presume most of the rest of the estate was as well.

But let's have no illusions about white working class labour voting ordinary folks.
On the whole I remember my estate being reactionary, small-minded, and thuggish..
As soon as I was selected for grammar school, I became shunned by my old school pals, and marked as a target..

.. and we were one of the better class estates in the area.
The respectable working class..

But I'm no historian or sociologist,
You'll just have to give my anecdotal account the benefit of the doubt
(Or not, I won't bother arguing)..

That was half a century ago.

When I was a teenager, Rock against racism and the anti-na@zi league put my head straight;
and rescued me from the institutionalized racist norm of my council estate childhood
But I was in a minority of college-educated local kids,
becoming politicised by radical ideas propagated via London music scene magazines...

It was only when I was 18 or 21,
that my mum summoned the courage to break it to me that I was part Jewish by blood.
The family had kept their dark secret from me all along that my Dunkirk hero grandad wasn't my real grandad after all.
I no longer had his DNA strengthening my body and being.
My real grandad who I'd never met was in fact a young feckless Jewish flash Harry who'd taken a fancy to my grandmother..

Mum implored me to keep the secret to myself..

Complex reasons too far back in time to ever fathom out...???

Fast forward a few years,
thatcher started selling off the council houses to factory workers on the estate, bribery for their votes..

Then the factory was suddenly closed down and everybody made redundant.
And those who could not keep up their mortgages, homeless..
Their homes sold on to all kinds of incomers to the estate.

Fortunately, my parent's political principles would not let them buy our council house.
Which is why I'm sat typing in it now,
as I am clearing it out in readiness to hand back to the housing association.
To hopefully continue for as long as possible as good quality social housing for a new young family...

These days, I honestly believe my old estate gradually became less overtly racist,
for various reasons throughout all the turmoil of the 1980s and forwards.
The estate is now more rainbow colours with black and mixed-race families.
Most of the town takeaways are kebabs pizzas Indian and Chinese.
It was a novelty when a proper fish and chip shop opened recently.
(Owned by a local Asian businessman).

Evidence of some genuine progress.

But I think it's safe to assume the build up to brexit has to a significant extent brought largely dormant incipient racism back to the foreground...???

Perfect hunting ground for far-right recruiters and their pernicious social media propaganda.

My cousins use racist language in casual conversation.
Total lack of awareness.
They are not thick or thuggish people.
Put it down to to environmental upbringing and quality of education...???

One of the west country's prominent far-right YouTube influencers lives in our vicinity...!!!

After I moved back from London to Scrumpyshire 20 years ago, I drank regularly in a local old established workingmens club.
I was seen as just another white middle-aged bloke who looked normal, liked his cider, and kept quietly to himself.
So their views were not withheld within my ear shot.

Times had changed, and they must have been aware that they could no longer make racist comments openly in public about Black, Asian and other Ethnic communities without risking getting into trouble.

So the Polish were a godsend to them.
Poles are white, so it was ok, they were fair game for endless old fashioned bitter racist hatred diatribes..

It was too easy to see direct links with the newspapers they were reading and the bitter dislike for Poles taking all our building jobs and rented accommodation..

Cue the onset of brexitering...


That is why Tommy Robinson and his ilk have been so successful..

And something the Labour party needs to take on board when profiling potential candidates for ex labour voting old traditional working class constituencies...

That is the obvious reason why I ask where are the lefty "Tommy Robinsons"...???

Not fukwit racist extremists, but solid working class motivated and inspiring blokes and blokettes who locals can identify with..

So in conclusion, bollocks to all the bollocks..

Let's keep our sense of humour and not fall into pointless stupid divisive bickering amongst ourselves..

We need our strength for fighting tories and their even worse allies...!!!


12 May 21 - 01:03 PM (#4105811)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bloody 'ell PFR. You went to grammar school, university and lived in London? Middle class if ever I saw it... :-D I dropped out of 6th form college after the first term because I had a girlfriend and we wanted to marry. I did win a place on a day release economics degree at Wigan tech (miner's collage) but that stopped after the first term because there were only 3 of us doing it. I did pretty well at my day release ONC in business studies even though I spent most of my day release afternoons in the pub next door :-)

Funny you mention the Polish kid - I was that kid in 1957 Salford. No funny accent but a strange name was enough to get you beat up in those days. I was grateful when the first black kid started at our school in about 1960 and took the heat off me.


12 May 21 - 01:05 PM (#4105812)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

...The other thing was the street entranced terrace I was dragged up in was directly facing the school!


12 May 21 - 01:19 PM (#4105814)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

University...!!!????

wot kind of toff do you think I am..

I went to a proper commie den of revolutionaries Polytechnic
to study the most lefty Humanities degree this side of the iron curtain..


Though I did get an offer from Bradford Uni to do social psychology..
But I'd just split up with a girlfriend up there on that course...

Shame, I really liked Bradford in the late 70s/early 80s...


So has anyone watched that "Optimism" link I posted...???


12 May 21 - 01:41 PM (#4105816)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Not watched it all as my attention span is too short! But I have been aware of the community wealth project in Preston for a long time. In fact, I have commented on it on here when discussing the role of responsible capitalism in socialist societies. I was quite surprised by the mention of Salford in the same piece as my experience of Salford council is a corrupt bunch of incompetents in the pocket of Peel Holdings. I suppose the leopard can change its spots. Andy Burnham seems ok but I don't know enough about him. If he brings Manchester buses back under public ownership, he'll do me.


13 May 21 - 12:22 PM (#4105921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

The is proof that everyone who voted who voted leave are racists who have now lost the right to call themselves human and should not even be entitled to breath our air. How do I know this will not happen to my partner when next time she comes to stay with me?

DISGUSTING


13 May 21 - 12:56 PM (#4105926)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Steve, it is not proof at all.I SUSPECT Denis Skinner Voted leave he is not a racist. i agree it is disgraceful what is happening , but it does not mean that all leave voters are racists, the vote happened some years ago and not every person who voted leave then would anticipate what is happening now, some of them may have imagined that the uk might be in a similiar position to norway.
no, the fault here lies with the uk government and those people who more recntly voted conservative, not what happened in 2016


13 May 21 - 01:10 PM (#4105929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

It is indisputable that people who voted leave enabled this to happen, and have to take their share of responsibility for this. May's 'hostile environment' showed clearly what the tory government would do.

If this was happening to UK nationals going to mainland Europe or to Ireland, then the gutter press would be up in the air demanding Europeans' blood.

This article is sickening.


13 May 21 - 01:43 PM (#4105934)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I read it earlier and had the same thoughts, SPB. If this was happening to Brits entering Europe there would be an outrage in the tabloid press. However, I don't think all those who voted leave did so for racist reasons. However, given how close the result was, I have no doubt that the racist vote, fuelled by the contemptible toad, Farage, did tip the balance most severely.


13 May 21 - 02:51 PM (#4105937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I agree that what is happening now is disgraceful, but blaming everyone who voted leave four years ago and calling them ALL racist is inaccurate.


13 May 21 - 02:59 PM (#4105938)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Steve, if you want to do something about this you would be better off contacting your local MP


13 May 21 - 03:04 PM (#4105939)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Perhaps blame it on frumpy jealous brexiteer wives trying to keep sexy young Euro Au Pairs out of Britain...???

That would basically be the plot of "Carry On Brexit"...


Yes it might be that funny, if the reality of these harsh detainments wasn't so petty and cruel.....


13 May 21 - 08:32 PM (#4105962)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

https://amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/may/13/eu-citizens-arriving-in-uk-being-locked-up-and-expelled


16 May 21 - 12:30 PM (#4106245)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Hello, it's gone a bit quiet down here, is anybody out there...

Anything happening in the wider outside world which might have caused our glorious strong leader starmer
to keep quietly out of the spotlight just right now...???

Has the soft slippery wazzock backed himself into a sticky situation,
where he daren't say anything for fear of being at the receiving end of a tirade of
hostile trumped up accusations from his friends in international high places;
who helped him into power as Labour leader...

He knows only too well what happened to the last bloke who had his job, when he innocently suggested a particular regime is acting far too far out of civilised humane order...

Hello.. anybody...?????


16 May 21 - 12:51 PM (#4106249)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I wonder what any of our party leaders have to say about the fact that Israel is slaughtering children (again) with its non-smart target practice into Gaza? Haven't heard much... And this also looks like Biden's first massive failure. UN criticism of Israel was blocked by the US last week (so what's new?). The yanks had to allow today's Security Council meeting (in which they can carry on vetoing if necessary), even though they didn't want it, but had to give in in order to avoid a General Council meeting in which the US would have found itself isolated. Biden looks paralysed. How bloody disappointing. Tragic even. Here we go again.


16 May 21 - 05:29 PM (#4106292)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Here's a piece from the Guardian:

Four men have been arrested by officers investigating a video that appeared to show antisemitic abuse being shouted from a car in north London.

Politicians had earlier condemned the footage, which was posted on Twitter and showed the cars travelling through the St John’s Wood area on Sunday afternoon. The cars were covered in Palestinian flags with a speaker blasting out antisemitic slurs and threats against Jews.

Boris Johnson described it as an act of “shameful racism” and the Labour leader, Keir Starmer, said the video was “utterly disgusting”. Starmer tweeted: “Antisemitism, misogyny and hate have no place on our streets or in our society. There must be consequences.”

The prime minister said there was no place for antisemitism in our society. “Ahead of Shavuot, I stand with Britain’s Jews, who should not have to endure the type of shameful racism we have seen today,” he added.


That item was given extensive coverage on the BBC ten o'clock news. In the same bulletin we heard about dozens of civilians in Gaza slaughtered by Israeli air attacks, many of them children. The coverage of that was brief and we heard precisely NO condemnation from any politician on either side of the pond. We did see impressive footage of Israel's amazing anti-rocket armaments, of course. Don't you just love the bloody hypocrisy?


16 May 21 - 05:48 PM (#4106296)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Ditto..

My thoughts exactly..

And I've been watching BBC rolling news reports throughout the day...

That nasty hate speech against our friends, is far worse our our friends killing children...


16 May 21 - 06:06 PM (#4106299)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

From the Beeb.

In his own remarks, Biden has emphasised Israel’s right to self-defence, though in a phone call with Netanyahu on Saturday the president also “raised concerns about the safety and security of journalists”, following the bombing of the Gaza press building.

At the UN on Sunday, the Palestinian foreign minister, Riyad al-Maliki, took aim at Biden’s position.

“Remember that each time Israel hears a foreign leader speak of its right to defend itself, it is further emboldened to continue murdering entire families in their sleep,” Maliki told the security council.


For Christ's sake. "Journalists." Not kids, not women, not non-combatants, not the people struggling to maintain even the most basic water supplies and health services and schooling. This is going to define Joe Biden. He's no different to any of the other lily-livered, lobby-fearing presidents of the last sixty years, is he? Useless bugger...


16 May 21 - 06:17 PM (#4106300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Danny Danon, Former Permanent Representative of Israel to the United Nations,
is being interviewed live right now...

He seems a very nice chap..

.. Well.. he's a good friend, if you're afraid of what strings he and his regime can pull
to keep you in or out of political power in the West..


16 May 21 - 06:18 PM (#4106301)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nah, he's a c@nt...


16 May 21 - 06:29 PM (#4106306)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I suppose that the fact that we're in a supposed Brit thread might protect us, for a bit at least, from those right-wing Yank Israel-apologist deniers...


16 May 21 - 06:37 PM (#4106307)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nice weather for this time of the year...


16 May 21 - 07:05 PM (#4106308)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

And Alisson Becker has just scored a legendary goal...


17 May 21 - 03:05 AM (#4106326)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

whenever a politician or a journalist wants to lie to us they always put on the suit. the bigger the lie the more expensive the suit. they leave the behind the scenes dirty work to the uniform - the suits' military wing. suits are just protective armour against truth and decency. you don't get lies from a bereaved father in a t-shirt and sandals


17 May 21 - 04:16 AM (#4106330)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

UK politicians now seem too cowed and timid to open their mouths in protest
against rogue state allies..

.. too afraid they might personally suffer the same hostile consequences as Corbyn...!!!!!???


17 May 21 - 05:36 AM (#4106333)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

The pro-Israel lobbies in both major parties are mighty powerful and their knives are kept permanently sharpened. The best you'll get is "we condemn Hamas rockets and Israel has the right to defend itself." Same in America. No context is ever allowed or admitted to. The gun lobby, the pro-Israel lobby and the big corporations have got the US politicians in their pockets. What price democracy?


17 May 21 - 07:11 AM (#4106338)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

spot on steve


17 May 21 - 05:32 PM (#4106411)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Benjamin Netanyahu protects his citizens and gives them all the security they need by killing 61 children in Gaza. The most sacred areas of Jerusalem, which would normally have been crowded today, were almost deserted, ordinary people frightened to go out. More vetos from the US (aka utter paralysis) and, well, I have hardly heard a word from the politicians here...

One fine day the citizens of Israel will see the light...


17 May 21 - 05:44 PM (#4106413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

One tory mp was on BBC news today,
disgusted by rising antisemitism in London and Essex,
and UK social media posts gloryfying hamas...


.. nothing else seemed to be perturbing him...


17 May 21 - 08:15 PM (#4106438)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

Both of these are from The New York Times. I really don't know if clicking on them will allow you to read them through the paywall) or not: Each one is different from my initial reactions, and each one of them is somewhat different from opinions posted in this thread so far:


Bret Stephens - If the left got its Wish for Israel

Thomas Friedman - For Bibi and Hamas it's always Jan06


17 May 21 - 10:45 PM (#4106453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

also opinion from one Bernie Sanders


17 May 21 - 11:11 PM (#4106454)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Careful, Steve. You will have your party membership revoked!


18 May 21 - 04:08 AM (#4106473)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

is the covid danger from indian variant being exaggerated ,please note this is a question not a statement, as the medida seem to like to sensationalise, neiher am i saying there is not a danger, so varying opinions welcome


18 May 21 - 04:31 AM (#4106475)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

The NYT piece is fantasy with some scraps of food for thought lurking like tiny little jewels in a crock of shite. Here's the nub:

"But perhaps the progressive Israeli government might yet succeed if a U.N.-sanctioned, U.S.-led force — you might almost call it a mandate — agreed to deploy peacekeeping forces to guarantee Jewish rights and security."

A truly progressive Israel would immediately ditch the need "to guarantee Jewish rights and security" and start talking about guaranteeing the rights and security of all Israelis, the 20% Arabs in the population and the Christians, and the rest, alike. Anything less is not progressive and won't work. Your writer seems to be displaying the same old stale predictions to the same old stale scenario. If you don't start from the position that there is massive discrimination in Israel against non-Jews, Arabs in particular, you haven't a hope of solving this.


18 May 21 - 04:38 AM (#4106478)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I can't get past the headline of the other two pieces. Bernie may well be right, but he forgets that the iron grip of the US pro-Israel lobby would thereby ensure that Biden was toast. Refusing to veto resolutions critical of the Israeli regime would be a bloody good start, but, for that same reason, it won't happen. For many decades the US has enabled this problem to persist, and Biden doesn't look like changing anything. "I would support a ceasefire" is as far as it will ever go.


19 May 21 - 10:53 AM (#4106669)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

If starmer and other conservatives don't get up in arms and disgusted over this shocking breaking news,
I will feel seriously disappointed and severely let down...

https://www.bristolpost.co.uk/whats-on/food-drink/bristol-bar-owner-fuming-after-5427386.amp

It's that bloody protest mad Bristol again,
Not content with chucking slaver statues in the river, or trying to demolish police stations.
Now they're vandalising the Great British tradition of beer drinking..

This sort of foul graffiti should be kept inside on toilet doors,
as is the proper beer drinking tradition...


20 May 21 - 07:15 PM (#4106835)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

So Prince Willie wades in to excoriate the BBC over the 1995 Diana interview. It was a vile deceit that got Bashir his interview (though it also exposed some royal gullibility...) and the Beeb handled it very badly. But make no mistake, the royals and their satellites and acolytes are past masters when it comes to exploiting a mostly-sycophantic media for their own ends. It ill-behoves them to whine when on the odd occasion they get duped. And by the way, Meghan and Harry have been abused by the mass newspaper media for several years, yet not once do I recall Prince Willie sticking up for his little brother. I suppose it was because those same papers were locked in a love affair with him and Kate, so why would he ruffle their feathers? The stench of hypocrisy is almost overpowering. Put a sock in it, Willie...


20 May 21 - 09:20 PM (#4106842)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So far no BBC news item I've seen has adequately explained, not even bothered trying to explain,
the relevance of these bank statements, and why they were so important to Di's brother...???

"Show me bank statements and I'll let you talk to my sister"..

Eh.. what was all that about then..?????

My obvious natural impulse is to be highly suspicious of that brother...


20 May 21 - 11:42 PM (#4106851)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3sUsvy4VHX0

4 mins of grim hilarity...


21 May 21 - 02:59 AM (#4106860)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

yes...as james o'brien put it - if you are still supporting johnson and the tories then you are a member of a deluded cult


21 May 21 - 01:09 PM (#4106879)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Was 'cult' a spelling mistake?


22 May 21 - 04:11 AM (#4106946)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Maybe Willie doesn't care for his half brother Steve.


22 May 21 - 05:41 AM (#4106954)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

To be fair to Harry and Lady Di, the red hair genes are autosomal recessive and can stay in the background for several generations until both prospective parents happen to be carriers, and even then there's only a one in four chance of their child being a redhead. To me, Harry's facial features do resemble Charles's to an extent. If Hewitt was Harry's dad, then Diana would also have been carrying the genes, suggesting that the genes were in her family anyway, and were just waiting fo their chance to pop out...

Genetics was always my weak spot at university, so I stand to be corrected...


22 May 21 - 05:47 AM (#4106955)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Who has got half a willie? How does he cope?


22 May 21 - 06:22 AM (#4106965)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Better than having a bent one. You wouldn't know whether you were coming or going...


22 May 21 - 06:41 AM (#4106969)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So yet another full day of sanctimonious royal bollocks dominating TV news..

That William is going to be one insufferable priggish Pillock of a king..


Royalty couldn't get much worse if Simon cowell who was given the job of finding a replacement family for the job..

At least we'd have a gloriously tripe Saturday teatime TV show to take the piss out of...


22 May 21 - 06:53 AM (#4106973)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I have always said that if we only keep royalty as a tourist attraction, it should be taken over by Disney. Imagine the money we could make then and the Disney Corp would soon put a stop to all these shenanigans :-)


22 May 21 - 02:52 PM (#4107047)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

PFR: Royalty couldn't get much worse if Simon cowell who was given the job of finding a replacement family for the job..

In English please?


22 May 21 - 03:31 PM (#4107051)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

English...???

Ok, **** off you pedantic supercilious ****...

You're lucky I've got a good sense of humour,
and don't take smug folks too seriously...

Yes I know that sentence was flawed,
I noticed immediately it was posted.

If my eyesight wasn't failing, I'd not have accidentally pressed submit before I'd finished proofreading
on this tiny smartphone screen and typing pad...

Let me guess, you're a royalist...???


22 May 21 - 03:36 PM (#4107052)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Yes, I'm a royalist (to some extent). But that still doesn't help me make any sense of your post.

Swearing at me (presumably that's what the asterisks replace) adds nothing to your earlier post, but is what I have come to expect.


22 May 21 - 04:31 PM (#4107056)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

The typical smarmy tory response of,

"Ooh, how dare you swear at me, I'm your superior...!!!"

Nearly always deployed to deflect from their own far more objectionable provocative behaviour...

Gotcha, royal fanboy...!!!


22 May 21 - 05:34 PM (#4107068)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

The typical smarmy tory response of,

"Ooh, how dare you swear at me, I'm your superior...!!!"


I never claimed to be your superior. But if that's what you believe I'll let it go on this occasion.


22 May 21 - 05:51 PM (#4107074)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

petty minded conformist snobbery goes hand in hand with deference to royalty...


22 May 21 - 07:51 PM (#4107085)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Exceptions exist. For example I thought Steve was too proper for a beard and was clean shaven like me.


22 May 21 - 07:55 PM (#4107086)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I had no difficulty understanding either the substantive or the nuance of pfr's post, Nigel. I'm a bit surprised that you, of all people, knowing your predilection for over-analysing and nitpicking others' posts, should have such "difficulty." Blinded, perhaps, by your tendency towards royal sycophancy...? ;-)


22 May 21 - 08:19 PM (#4107089)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Piss off, Donuel. You know so little of US politics, so you are as welcome in this thread as a fart in a spacesuit.


23 May 21 - 04:46 AM (#4107135)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Interesting piece on R4.

My interpretation was that Johnson is incapable of making coherent and consistent decisions on the grounds that he basis his decisions' and announcements on his overarching policy of staying in No 10, no latter what the public health, social and economic cost is.

Because of that he has to base his actions not upon the goodwill and welfare of the electorate who can do nothing but sit there with their mouths shut for another 4 years, but react to the whims of his rabid back benchers who can remove him at a moment's notice.


23 May 21 - 10:29 PM (#4107311)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

news about news


24 May 21 - 09:47 AM (#4107361)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

They won’t remind us, but the tabloids hurt Diana just as much as Panorama did, a superb piece by Marina Hyde in last Friday's Guardian which highlights the hypocrisyfest currently swamping the media about Bashir and the BBC. The Beeb (of course) gets it in the neck, even though Diana wanted the interview, said similar things in other interviews and had been humiliated by Charles admitting his unfaithfulness to a Dimbleby in an interview. And the hypocrisy, then and now, of the tabloids is just staggering. And Piers Morgan and Kelvin McKenzie (!) excoriating the BBC. Journalists who lied and lied and hacked little girls' phones...You couldn't make it up (though they did, all the time). Johnson expressing concern about the duplicitous Beeb when he is one of the most duplicitous people on the planet...Prince William, shooting his mouth off about things he simply doesn't get. Unqualified people here, there and everywhere (including him) spouting about Diana's mental health and "paranoia". Her stupid brother trying to make a direct link between the interview and the car crash that killed her during her jolly in Paris with Dodi two years later...And the great British public, buying those bloody papers and provoking more and more royal digging, the tabloids' non-stop feeding frenzy on the royals, who simply love the attention anyway...


24 May 21 - 10:30 AM (#4107364)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

We have our differences on the topics of Man’s Best Friend, and the appalling, shameful spectacle of LP members more interested in fighting each other than they are in taking on the foulest bunch of Tory crooks and liars in living memory, Steve, but I’m in complete agreement with everything you say in your post above.


24 May 21 - 10:57 AM (#4107368)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

If anyone has the time, the link I posted relates too uncomfortably with Steve's post..

ie, the surreptitious covert active purging of any non right-wing voices from international journalism.
On any flimsiest of pretexts..

Yeah, vested interest Beeb bashers
will take advantage of the slightest opportunity for launching hostile attacks on the entire corporation..

In this instance, exploiting the dodgy actions of a handful of BBC staff
for ramping up across the whole board editorial interference from the tory party and their pay masters...

It'd be just the same as folks who don't like the tories,
damning the entire party and the their cronies as unscrupulous corrupt callous sociopathic bastards...

.. oh....


24 May 21 - 12:21 PM (#4107395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Who likes a whistleblower,grass,nark, snitch etc etc?I guess it depends on which group or organisation is having its secrets exposed.

Prince William is probably happy in having   some light thrown on the intrigue involved in Bashir securing that interview. No doubt he is grateful to the people who helped expose it. Those whistleblowers are good.

On the other hand, Prince William is probably not too happy with Prince Harry & Meghan spilling the beans about their relationship with the 'firm'. Those whistleblowers are bad.

"And the great British public, buying those bloody papers and provoking more and more royal digging, the tabloids' non-stop feeding frenzy on the royals, who simply love the attention anyway..."

Does this include those members of the great British public who watched the Harry & Meghan interview with Oprah?

Personally what I find more important is the cover up by the BBC over the intervening years. That is far worse than the Bashir shenanigans. People lost their jobs as a result of that cover up. We will have to wait and see if we will ever find out the full facts about it. We might even find out how Bashir managed to be employed again by the BBC and then allowed to resign before the Dyson report was published.

Why do people cover up things? Some do so in order to hide their own wrongdoings. But what of those people who were not involved in the original wrongdoing? Why do they continue to cover up? Some might be rewarded to do so. Others do it in order to protect the reputation of the organisation they work for. They might do it for good reasons but it is still wrong to do it. It rarely turns out well in the end.

It was a good article by Marina Hyde in Saturday's Guardian newspaper. Nice to see mention of the Private Eye issue which got banned by W H Smiths.


24 May 21 - 07:35 PM (#4107455)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well let's have a think about that. First, in this country the major television companies are tightly regulated in a way that the tabloids are patently not. Blatant right- or left-wing bias is not tolerated, for example. Second, my taxes help to buoy up the royals. I have a right to be interested in what they get up to. My responsibility is to choose my sources of information carefully. Everybody on this thread who is talking about the royals has had to resort to the media to inform themselves. There is no other way. The interviews we are discussing here, namely the Bashir one and the Oprah one, were carefully constructed and conducted in measured tones. Whether they are valid and relevant documents is moot, but that much is clear. The coverage of the royals in the tabloids is routinely sycophantic to one "side" and excoriating to the other (the "sides" may or may not be the invention of the tabloids, but they are certainly exaggerated in the way the imagined confrontations are reported). It's about selling papers, not giving a carefully-balanced account of issues in the royal family. And the royals are fully complicit. Harry can whinge all he likes about the tabloids, but he is currently exploiting the tabloid hunger for royal titbits in the US to make his living. It's what you do if you are one of 'em. So whether we should have watched Oprah or not...dunno really. It wasn't quite the Daily Mail, was it?


24 May 21 - 08:34 PM (#4107460)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I did view the link, pfr, and it was painfully relevant. Ash and Owen Jones are my current favourite lefties, but don't eloquent lefties talk a lot... The US and Israel are umbilically connected for sure. Emasculation of the press is just one upshot of that and the roles of those lobby groups is to make sure the cord is never cut. I suppose that massive numbers of Americans either don't care about Palestine or are simply not up to speed (political ignorance is so useful for the right...) Thing is, in general elections not one person voted for AIPAC or a big corporation or the gun lobby, but they, not the elected politicians, are the ones who decide what happens in the country in large part. Democracy can go hang...


24 May 21 - 08:55 PM (#4107465)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

The left is dead or dying in the UK and similarities to US politics is more distant than ever. But the US footprint is growing in Premiere league ownership.


24 May 21 - 09:52 PM (#4107470)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

you left out the question mark..

" The left is dead or dying in the UK ? "...???

..at least I'd hope you intended that as a question..


Because frankly we are sick of American propagandists swamping social media
with their overwhelming evangelical determination to permanently vanquish the left in our UK politics...


American billionaires and their army of subsidised internet influencers/indoctrinators,
are a diabolical force for spreading the contagion of alt right US imperialism...


25 May 21 - 07:50 AM (#4107509)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

The left is neither dead nor dying. Concerted efforts to demonise and ridicule us are not the way to see us off. The media find it easy to make us unpopular, and the outlets for our voices to be properly heard are few. But we won't be going away any time soon.


25 May 21 - 03:20 PM (#4107562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

agree. there may not be so many prepared to identify with the current labour party or be union members. i don't know if the term 'left' means much anymore, but many progressive and diverse groups are lively and committed - particularly in respect of the environment. from biden in the usa to greens in germany (and here) parliamentary democracy is making a bit of a comeback. although the daily news is grim and the tories evil and ridiculous - i feel they have peaked and a slow wave of decency and progress may well be on the way.


25 May 21 - 05:19 PM (#4107574)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Early days of hope. pete...


25 May 21 - 06:16 PM (#4107578)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

So now we have a report on what we all knew, that the Tory party is riddled with Islamophobia (its leader being the most egregious offender). Even Baroness Warsi thinks that the report has been a whitewash. So I wonder whether the Tory backbenchers will do a Jeremy on Johnson and hound him, if not out, into a disastrous election loss...

Or will pigs fly...


26 May 21 - 05:57 AM (#4107609)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Cummings just stated that Hancock should have been fired for repeatedly lying to the cabinet and the public.


26 May 21 - 06:44 AM (#4107613)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

An nteresting opinion-piece from Attila The Stockbroker on his FB page this morning. His posts are ‘shareable’, but I’ve C&P’d because I’m not comfortable linking to FB, for fear of giving away others’ identities, but if you’re a FB-user, you can find ATS’s page via the search utility.

I have to say that I can find no fault with anything he says...

”Now I don’t trust Dominic Cummings further than I can throw him. Obviously.

But however you interpret his description of the Home Office as ‘terrifyingly shit’, his assertion that lockdown should have started in the first week of March, and his description of officials committed to ideas of herd immunity, this is a government which has presided over a national catastrophe on a scale which was manifestly avoidable.

And the fact that its approval ratings (in England only, that goes without saying) are at something approaching 50% speaks volumes about the utter servility of most of our media and the abject level of understanding vast swathes of people have about issues of, quite literally, life and death.

A lack of understanding celebrated by the Tories’ shameless, overprivileged charlatan cabal as ‘the British people are fed up with experts’ and ‘emotions are more important than facts’ - while calling us, ordinary people who take the trouble to think for ourselves, ‘an elite’.

Anti-intellectualism is and always has been the scourge of this country, never more so than now, and it has been weaponised by the Tories against us.

And by ‘us’ I’m not talking about these fabled ‘metropolitan liberals’. I’m talking about people like my best mate Steve, who grew up in an Essex newtown, left school at 16 and is one of the most intelligent, clear sighted people I have ever met. According to the Tories, he’s ‘elite’ too, as are millions of us like jinx

To not be part of ‘the Tories’ fake ‘left wing elite’ these days you have to be a cap-doffing forelock tugger grovelling to their real right wing one!

This is a government of contemptible charlatans who should be thrown out of office and, in many cases, put on trial.”


26 May 21 - 07:05 AM (#4107615)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

"There was not even a plan to bury all the bodies ......"


26 May 21 - 08:54 AM (#4107621)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"Anti-intellectualism is and always has been the scourge of this country, never more so than now, and it has been weaponised by the Tories against us."

My dad, going back decades, always railed against this, calling it the "cult of the philistine."


26 May 21 - 10:56 AM (#4107636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

At Poly in the early 80s, I had a lecturer with a toxic maladjusted personality..

She'd been one of the original late 1960s Marxist workers revolutionary uprising students..

In 1983 she was a comfortably well off middle-aged middle-class ideology lecturer..

Whatever her reason, she targeted me for a lot of her spiteful bitterness.

Once I innocently and naively questioned something she said in a seminar, suggesting she hadn't explained it clearly for us to take in and understand..

Her immediate reaction was to damn me with the accusation that I was "anti-intellectual"...!!!???

Then continue to bully me for remainder of the year, trying to destroy my confidence,
hinting I should resign from my degree..

So naturally, I have long since been wary of that kind of bitter academic 'socialist'...

Btw, I spent that summer vacation working at Butlins to get my head back together grounded in proper working-class culture..

F*** the elitist academics...


26 May 21 - 12:50 PM (#4107653)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Butlins? F***ing BUTLINS!?!?!?!

We could only dream of going on holiday, never mind to Butlins. Nowt working class about them. Upper class rich place as far as us guttersnipes were concerned...

:D tG


26 May 21 - 01:41 PM (#4107663)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Anyone watching the (s)cummings interviews BTW? It seems he is tying his colours to the Sunak mast.


26 May 21 - 02:07 PM (#4107668)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dtg - you should have saved the Butlins coupons out the newspapers
before you wiped yer bum with 'em...


26 May 21 - 03:36 PM (#4107679)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler

Well that was a more interesting 7 hours of TV han most that's been on recently.

Robin


29 May 21 - 01:55 PM (#4108062)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

well, i didn't watch any of it but i heard a lot, though i try to avoid it. it's just too depressing - nothing is hurting these liars


29 May 21 - 02:56 PM (#4108069)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

well, i didn't watch any of it but i heard a lot, though i try to avoid it. it's just too depressing - nothing is hurting these liars

That pre-supposes that the current government are liars.
The 'left' on this site never seemed to like Dominic Cummings before. Suddenly he seems to be 'flavour of the month'.


29 May 21 - 03:02 PM (#4108071)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Cummings is a shit of the highest order.


29 May 21 - 03:07 PM (#4108073)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 29 May 21 - 03:02 PM

Cummings is a shit of the highest order.


Amen


29 May 21 - 04:07 PM (#4108086)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

could you explain your opinion of Cummings?is it because he has criticised the government?


29 May 21 - 04:25 PM (#4108088)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 29 May 21 - 04:07 PM

could you explain your opinion of Cummings?is it because he has criticised the government?


Likewise, could you explain your question? Is it aimed at me, or at Bonzo3legs?


29 May 21 - 04:48 PM (#4108091)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

both of you


29 May 21 - 04:53 PM (#4108092)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Cummings appears to be backing rishi sunak as the next leader , i thought you might be in support of that, or do you think that johnson is your most likely to win the next election


29 May 21 - 06:03 PM (#4108098)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Cummings is everything bad that has been said in this thread. But the challenge is to show that his narrative is a pack of lies if you don't like him. I think you might have an uphill struggle there.


30 May 21 - 05:26 AM (#4108158)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

That pre-supposes that the current government are liars.

For the umpteenth time

https://boris-johnson-lies.com/

I shall not tire of posting that link while you are in denial


30 May 21 - 06:36 AM (#4108171)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"The 'left' on this site never seemed to like Dominic Cummings before. Suddenly he seems to be 'flavour of the month'

.. seems to who...???

Since when has shit ever been a tasty favour...!!!???


It's more like watching a pack of cornered plague rats turning on each other tooth and claw
in a desperate fight for self preservation...

The 'left' are the rat catchers waiting to finish off the survivors...


30 May 21 - 07:35 AM (#4108173)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

cummings is a spoilt shit.


30 May 21 - 07:58 AM (#4108177)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The 'left' on this site never seemed to like Dominic Cummings before. Suddenly he seems to be 'flavour of the month'.

That is not what I am seeing. Most of comments I have seen from those on the left are roughly the same as mine: Cummings is untrustworthy and has probably been extremely selective in what he chose not to say, as well as what he said. There are, however, lots of ways of checking various parts of his remarks: videos, Hansard entries, the experience of care homes and many others. So we do not rely on what Cummings said in isolation.

Conversely, I have yet to see an argument from the other side that is much more than "Cummings cannot be trusted." If there is a detailed account anywhere it support the government's statements.

For reference here is the relevant Hansard entry of the discussion on 19th May 2020.

I would pay particular attention to which statements are in the present tense (i.e. saying they were happening at the time) and which are in the future tense (saying they are planned but not happening). I would also suggest people think about phrases like "Fourthly, we are supporting care homes to get the PPE that they need." It does not, for example, mean the homes actually have the PPE they need or are getting it. You could claim a leaflet describing PPE was such support if you felt inclined.


30 May 21 - 10:15 AM (#4108190)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Cummings is a self-serving, despicable piece of work, but notwithstanding, even if the motivation for the evidence he brought to the select committee is nothing other than covering his own back and/or stabbing is former /colleagues' in the back once they ceased to be of use to him his does not in anyway diminish the chain of incompetence, corruption and possible criminal negligence by the Prime Minister and his government and cohorts.

If the outcome is that Johnson and his cronies are finally brought to book for wilful ignorance and inaction leading to thousands of needless deaths, and the extended periods of lockdown we have had to suffer, then it is all for the good of society.


30 May 21 - 11:59 AM (#4108200)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Sometimes very bad people can do very good things..
Whether or not that was the intended outcome...


.. my favourite Western movies tend to be the ones where it's difficult to distinguish all along which characters were really the goodies or the baddies..

As long as the climactic shootout ends with the despicable Johnson outlaw gang
being shot to pieces and run out of town by cold cruel snake eyes Clint Cummings...

Cummings limps off wounded into the sunset.
But he lives to ride again..

.. though on which side of good or evil ?
can the downtrodden frontier townsfolk ever truly know...???


30 May 21 - 12:55 PM (#4108212)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"If the outcome is that Johnson and his cronies are finally brought to book for wilful ignorance and inaction leading to thousands of needless deaths, and the extended periods of lockdown we have had to suffer, then it is all for the good of society."

No no no no no no no, what absolute rubbish, to what are you comparing them ??? Answer nothing, because nothing like this pandemic has ever been experienced in recent history. Ignorance of what - the unknown??? You are talking absolute bollocks.


30 May 21 - 01:00 PM (#4108214)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The consequence of that argument, Bonzo, is that Johnson could have done anything all they liked, or nothing at all, and you could still say they have no responsibility because there is nothing to compare it to.

There are things to compare it to, though. Some are actual, like actions taken by other countries, and some are mathematical models, but each can help us decide whether decisions were good or bad, timely or untimely.


30 May 21 - 01:06 PM (#4108215)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Bonz - we know it's your knee jerk reaction to defend your party.. fair enough..

But have you already forgotten how much you disliked Johnson when he became leader..

I think I remember you had some rather justifiably crude things to say about him back then..

We accept you are a loyal tory,
but come on you can't be that hostile to everything a lefty alleges, no matter how true it might be...

In your private thoughts, you must accept the gang of cronies Johnson brought him with him are too corrupt and incompetent,
compared to the good old fashioned tory moderates who were permanently driven out your party...


30 May 21 - 01:25 PM (#4108217)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

because nothing like this pandemic has ever been experienced in recent history.

Bollocks. "Spanish" flu after WW1 was every bit as much a pandemic as this one. It just didn't have an internet full of knobheads spinning conspiracy theories!


30 May 21 - 01:47 PM (#4108220)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Geoff Wallis

HIV/AIDS is still a pandemic in Africa.


30 May 21 - 02:19 PM (#4108224)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jeri

"HIV/AIDS is still a pandemic in Africa."

Maybe you should look up the meaning of "PANdemic"? Also, HIV/Aids isn't passed through the air, and it's a lot less deadly these days.
Gnome, you think the Spanish Flu was recent!?
Y'all ever feel like you're working too hard to pick a fight? Yeah, I'm out.


30 May 21 - 03:55 PM (#4108232)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"HIV/AIDS is still a pandemic in Africa."

If only Africa had more mosquito nets then every year we could save millions of mosquitoes from dying needlessly of aids!!!


30 May 21 - 04:30 PM (#4108234)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i predict priti patel will be next leaderof the conservatives


30 May 21 - 05:15 PM (#4108236)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I think she could be less of a disaster than Gove!!


31 May 21 - 02:15 AM (#4108271)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

what was it she did connected with israel that was unethical?


31 May 21 - 02:41 AM (#4108274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, Jeri. WW1 is recent history as opposed to ancient history.


31 May 21 - 03:44 AM (#4108279)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

It is off topic, I am afraid, but DtG's question raises an interesting question. In terms of medical knowledge and ability to cure illnesses, is WW1 closer to Ancient Greece than it is to today? I think a case could be made.

But I won't here.


31 May 21 - 08:16 AM (#4108293)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. and not forgetting we survived "Mad Cow Disease" in our lifetime...

.. how many undiagnosed cases of that might explain all the crazy political decisions
of the last decade or so...!!!????


31 May 21 - 08:42 AM (#4108295)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Compare alleged "crazy political decisions" of this government with "crazy political decisions" of last labour government!!


31 May 21 - 09:26 AM (#4108301)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

If HIV-Aids occurs on a considerable scale across multiple countries within the continent of Africa, then the term pandemic is perfectly appropriate. And I checked that across mulitiple dictionaries. The flu outbreak of 1918 is recent enough for us still to take lessons from. Being properly prepared as a nation for a sudden pandemic is a lesson we should have learned but didn't.


31 May 21 - 09:27 AM (#4108302)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

ok.. How many British citizens did Brown's decisions kill...???

Even h1tler couldn't compete with boris for as many British civilian deaths...


31 May 21 - 11:00 AM (#4108316)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

ok.. How many British citizens did Brown's decisions kill...???

Even h1tler couldn't compete with boris for as many British civilian deaths...


Once more. Boris Johnson's decisions didn't kill anyone. Covid did.
It is arguable that more may have been saved if Boris had made different decisions, but it is also likely we will never know.
Boris is attempting to balance the protection of human life (or even just delaying deaths to protect the NHS) with protecting the UK as a viable economy.
He also has to look at deaths caused (indirectly) by lockdown etc. causing missed diagnoses of terminal illnesses.

Boris is not perfect, but he is handling a job for which few others would wish to take the responsibility.


31 May 21 - 11:24 AM (#4108321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - basically your reply is far too reminiscent of the standard denial mode
of American anti gun control apologists and lobbyists...


"Once more. Boris Johnson's decisions didn't kill anyone. Covid did."

.. well covid couldn't have had a more helpful sidekick and enabler than boris on it's British homeland mass killing spree...


31 May 21 - 11:30 AM (#4108322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Evening Standard on 8th June 2020:
Matt Hancock insisted “there just isn’t a trade-off” between the economy and health as he unveiled his plans to protect social care services.

The Health Secretary denied there was any trade-off between protecting the economy and protecting health as the government gradually eases lockdown restrictions.


Seems he disagrees with you, Nigel.


31 May 21 - 11:50 AM (#4108324)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Geoff Wallis

Thanks, Steve.

As someone who actually has 'O' level Greek and, more importantly, worked on public health strategy in central London for several years, I'm well aware of the meaning of pandemic, unlike Jeri it seems.

Literally, it means the whole (or all the) people. It does not have to apply to the entire world population, but can be used to refer to a continent or a bloc of countries.

My point in raising the issue was that there is more than just one pandemic currently affecting the health of a people at this present time. The Cemtral and West African outbreaks of the Ebola virus in 2014-2016 were rightly termed a pandemic because of the large number of people affected. For the record, Ebola virus disease has a fatality rate of 50%, somewhat higher than the Covid-19 mortality rate.

Apologies for diverting this thread.

Returning to UK politics, does anyone have any theories why Cummings's seven-hour marathon a) flattered Sunak, or b) didn't mention Gove at all?


31 May 21 - 11:59 AM (#4108325)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

It seems that the Evening Standard headline disagrees with me.
The actual quote in the article is a little more nuanced:
“It is just simplistic to say that there is a trade-off between the economy and health. A second spike would be hugely damaging to the economy. Of course, there are arguments over timing.

“But ... things are moving in the right direction, that is why we are able to say that coronavirus is in retreat.”


31 May 21 - 12:46 PM (#4108328)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Ah, so "it is just simplistic to say that there is a trade-off between the economy and health" actually means "Of course we think there is a trade off".


31 May 21 - 12:57 PM (#4108331)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: gnu

John Stewart on Scottish independence... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-YkLPxQp_y0


31 May 21 - 12:58 PM (#4108332)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

This video is of relevance.

I do not think the "nuances" mean we disregard the first few sentences. I interpret them as meaning that we can choose things to help the economy within the constraint of the first sentences.


31 May 21 - 01:02 PM (#4108334)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

As someone with an "Excellent" level ability to search the internet,

An outbreak is called an epidemic when there is a sudden increase in cases. As COVID-19 began spreading in Wuhan, China, it became an epidemic. Because the disease then spread across several countries and affected a large number of people, it was classified as a pandemic. From the much-battered Centers for Disease Control (CDC).

Ebola was an "Outbreak" in a few countries. Nasty as it was, it didn't spread all over the place.

  • Epidemic: Sudden increase in cases of a disease.

  • Epidemiology: Study of disease and other health outcomes, their causes in a population, and how they can be controlled.

  • Outbreak: A higher-­than-expected number of occurrences of disease in a specific location and time.

  • Pandemic: Event in which a disease spreads across several countries and affects a large number of people.


31 May 21 - 01:15 PM (#4108336)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Are some Americans getting a bit bored with their own threads today...?????


31 May 21 - 01:49 PM (#4108340)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Geoff Wallis

'Ebola was an "Outbreak" in a few countries. Nasty as it was, it didn't spread all over the place.'

Yes it did, if one counts the whole continent of Africa as 'all over the place'.


WHO - Ebola


31 May 21 - 03:20 PM (#4108352)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

Not to quibble about the horrific severity of ebola, but it spread across a region of the continent - it didn't spread from Egypt to South Africa, it spread across a sub-Saharan swath:

The Ebola virus causes an acute, serious illness which is often fatal if untreated. EVD first appeared in 1976 in 2 simultaneous outbreaks, one in what is now Nzara, South Sudan, and the other in Yambuku, DRC. The latter occurred in a village near the Ebola River, from which the disease takes its name.

The 2014–2016 outbreak in West Africa was the largest Ebola outbreak since the virus was first discovered in 1976. The outbreak started in Guinea and then moved across land borders to Sierra Leone and Liberia.


A few cases jumped across the ocean and were caught. It wasn't a global pandemic. Everyone around the globe understands "pandemic" when discussing experiences with SARS-CoV-2 (COVID-19).


31 May 21 - 07:22 PM (#4108367)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Jeri has removed a perfectly civil post of mine which stated that the term pandemic was appropriate, according to multiple dictionaries, for a disease that occurred in considerable quantity across multiple nations in a region such as the continent of Africa. That was a civil response to her acerbic attack on Geoff, incorrectly asserting that he had misused the word pandemic. I also stated my opinion, equally civilly, that the flu pandemic of 2018 was recent enough for us to take lessons from, and that this country had failed to take the lesson that we should be prepared, as a nation, for sudden pandemics. That was the gist of my post and I have no idea why Jeri should have removed it. I do take time over my posts and I think I deserve slightly better treatment than this. This post will be copied in case it gets deleted again. There is a definite problem here.


31 May 21 - 07:27 PM (#4108369)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I must abjectly apologise for that last post. I didn't scroll far enough back to see that my post was still there. It's been a long day and I haven't been keeping up very well. I'm sorry, Jeri. I'll do better in future... :-(


31 May 21 - 07:34 PM (#4108371)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Thing is, Maggie, if you say pandemic it means one thing. If you say global pandemic, it means something different. I may have blotted my copybook here, but do consult any dictionary you like. If you want want pandemic to mean all over the world, then the qualifier "global" is rather necessary...

No fight intended, just clarity...


31 May 21 - 11:30 PM (#4108387)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

If I die of a pandemic or a global pandemic..

I'll feel a lot better now I know the difference...


So then, back to British politics today, in our single permitted thread..

.. hopefully, if it's ok with our American mod friends...


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nS45xUYiEZY


01 Jun 21 - 02:26 AM (#4108391)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

"Returning to UK politics, does anyone have any theories why Cummings's seven-hour marathon a) flattered Sunak, or b) didn't mention Gove at all?"

I guess because he has not fallen out with them, yet.


The Observer reported that the commitee was going to ask Cummings for proof about his comments on Hancock before Hancock appears before them. For all that he said, Cummings would appear to have offered up no evidence to back up his claims. We are living in strange times. He said they said etc.,including whoever briefed The Observer on this particular story.


"I predict priti patel will be next leaderof the conservatives"

That made me laugh, though if it ever happens i will probably cry.


01 Jun 21 - 03:51 AM (#4108398)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It would be very gratifying if both Patel and her bosom-buddy Netanyahu got booted out of politics so that they could spend more time together and were doing no further harm. Pigs might fly.


01 Jun 21 - 08:31 AM (#4108412)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

I'm betting on flying pigs. I think Bibi will go.


01 Jun 21 - 08:41 AM (#4108413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

bibi? I mean
Bebe and Bobo too.


01 Jun 21 - 03:02 PM (#4108459)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

‘Another Angry Voice’ hitting the nail fairly and squarely on the head, on their FB Page today. (C&Pd in order to avoid inadvertently identifying other individuals)...

”Imagine a female politician had 6+ children with at least three different men, and refused to be honest with the public about how many kids she'd actually had.

Imagine she had an affair while her husband was undergoing cancer treatment, and the himbo she was screwing ended up receiving hundreds of thousands of pounds from her government department while the affair was going on, and without the affair ever being registered as one of her interests.

Imagine that this female politician had even been sacked from her own party's front bench for barefaced lying to the party leader about one of her affairs.

And imagine that she wasn't just a serial adulterer, but an inveterate liar, and a disgusting bigot to boot.

It's absolutely unimaginable that a woman like that would make it to Prime Minister. In fact, no matter what her party political affiliation, it's beyond doubt that the tabloid propaganda rags would have absolutely savaged her, using all of the gender-specific armoury of terms used against women who sleep around, and they wouldn't have stopped until they drove her out of public life.

But because the lying, adulterous bigot is their own beloved Boris, who is not just male, but a professional liar from the corporate media hack pack just like they are, they don't just give him a free pass on what they'd be slamming anyone else for, they actively run his propaganda operations for him.

Britain used to be a place where sexual impropriety was frowned upon, and a politician's affair with his secretary was enough for him to resign from public life in disgrace, but now things have tilted so far in the opposite direction that we don't just tolerate serial infidelity and outright dishonesty about it, we've elevated the most notoriously dishonest philanderer in British politics to serve as Prime Minister of the nation.

And it's absolutely impossible to imagine that such a dishonest and adulterous figure would have achieved this kind of political success if they'd been female.”


01 Jun 21 - 03:49 PM (#4108463)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Spot on BWM but we will hear no condemnation from our resident BoJo supporters. Nor will we hear any from the main stream meadia. He is not Jeremy Corbyn!


01 Jun 21 - 04:19 PM (#4108467)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Quite so, Dave. None are so blind as they who will only see what their Tory propaganda machine tells them they must see.


03 Jun 21 - 09:21 AM (#4108616)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Patel and Netanyahu breeding?? The thought of it would put me off my dinner for the rest of my life!!!!


04 Jun 21 - 05:39 AM (#4108707)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Very good piece in Yorkshire Bylines

I doubt if even our rabid right supporters will find much to disagree with the opening paragraph

Whether you supported Brexit or not, there’s no doubt that there has been a cost for all of us. Brexit has been the thief in the night that has stolen our vision of the future. For those in favour of close ties with the EU, that relationship has been soured, and our rights diminished. For those that looked forward to a brighter new day, outside of the EU, the view ahead is not quite what was expected, or promised.


04 Jun 21 - 07:24 AM (#4108714)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

They may well know that it’s true, Dave, but they’ll never admit it. To do so would be to admit they were fools, bamboozled by the lies and bullshit of Haddock-Face, the Lying Scottish Viper, and Worzel Gummidge in a Saville Row suit - it ain’t gonna happen, is it?


04 Jun 21 - 07:28 AM (#4108715)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

What future?????

To be hones the only point of living is just to tick days off on life's calendar, and each day passing being one day left to live.

Let's be honest, we are living in a state that is resembling nazism more and more day by day, even to the state that fascists employed by the home office willingly obey orders in deciding whether people in relationships from different countries should be prevented from diluting the purity of British blood.


04 Jun 21 - 08:26 AM (#4108722)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

Haddock-Face, the Lying Scottish Viper, and Worzel Gummidge in a Saville Row suit

BWM,
I wish you would use names instead of insults. I have a hard enough time following arguments in this mish-mash of a thread, which lumps together so many diverse topics, without having to solve cryptic clues.

DC


04 Jun 21 - 09:04 AM (#4108725)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And I wish you’d mind your own business Doug. You’re not a Mod, you have no authority around here so, in the interests of keeping the peace, and keeping this thread open, perhaps it would be best if you keep your ‘advice’ to yourself.


04 Jun 21 - 09:22 AM (#4108728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I assume they are faridge, gove and johnson though I do think it is defamatory comparing that wonderful childrens' tv character with that overbloated self-serving liar.


04 Jun 21 - 10:38 AM (#4108732)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Correct, SPB-C. Doesn’t take a degree in Astro-physics to work them out, does it? Just a bit of imagination and a sense of humour - apparently sadly lacking in some forum contributors.


04 Jun 21 - 10:45 AM (#4108734)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Shut your mouths and eat humble pie remoaners..

The future of brexit Britain is brilliant..

We have now successfully accomplished a major trade deal with Liechtenstein...!!!


04 Jun 21 - 11:33 AM (#4108742)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

You're kidding?


04 Jun 21 - 11:45 AM (#4108744)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

It’s extremely frustrating when a post criticising me personally is permitted by the Mods to remain, yet my perfectly civil response is removed. Would it be too much to ask for the Mods to show some common sense and consistency please and, if they are going to remove a response to a post, also remove the post that gave rise to it.

It’s not rocket-science.


04 Jun 21 - 11:59 AM (#4108747)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

Unless I have missed something, your reply seems to be there at 9:04 AM.

DC


04 Jun 21 - 12:08 PM (#4108750)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’m sure it disappeared briefly, then reappeared.


04 Jun 21 - 12:17 PM (#4108752)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i did not recognise who you were describing other than johnson, either, i thought haddock face was patel


04 Jun 21 - 12:26 PM (#4108757)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

The problem for me was that I have never looked a haddock in the face, so the comparison didn't work.
I know who looks like a scarecrow and I know which politician came from Scotland, but I assumed the haddock must be Cummings.


04 Jun 21 - 12:29 PM (#4108761)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

So now the woke organisations are dispensing with the word “mother” and replacing it with “parent who has given birth”? Really? My parent who gave birth is now up in Heaven along with my parent who did not give birth.

Winkie wankie wokies again!!!


04 Jun 21 - 12:29 PM (#4108762)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’m confident that the person I was responding directly to - Dave the Gnome - understood precisely whom I was referring to. And anyone who didn’t know was perfectly at liberty to ask for clarification, and I would happily have explained. However, personal criticism seldom achieves a satisfactory outcome. Hopefully a lesson learned...


04 Jun 21 - 12:40 PM (#4108764)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Whilst there have been a few (what appear to me me to be) peculiar decisions, some of which I've been on the sharp end of, I've said it before and I'll say it again: don't berate the moderators over their efforts in tidying up threads. One vexatious post can generate a labyrinthine tidying-up job if there are multiple replies to it and keeping a thread looking sensible under such circumstances is tough. So let's agree to knock off the criticism and be a bit more, er, stoical about it...


04 Jun 21 - 12:58 PM (#4108770)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

it would have been easier to understand if you had said farage gove johnson


04 Jun 21 - 12:58 PM (#4108771)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

You’re right of course, Steve, and point taken here. Hopefully, it will be taken by others too.


04 Jun 21 - 01:22 PM (#4108778)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. and yet another highly successful distraction attack, wasting our time and attention..

A petty pedantic row about haddock faces / etc, diverting focus away from real criticism
of this deplorble govt and their corrupt cabal..

Well done haddock face, viper, and gummidge fanboys...


04 Jun 21 - 01:32 PM (#4108784)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

Using "person who has given birth" might get a bit complicated when someone has what are now called a birth mother and an adoptive mother - "birth person who has given birth" and "adoptive person who didn't give birth", along with "adoptive partner of person who didn't give birth"?


04 Jun 21 - 05:12 PM (#4108817)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I thought my usual description of nicotine stained man toad was better than haddock face but, yes, I know who you meant.:-D


04 Jun 21 - 05:54 PM (#4108827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

I just heard that 'step' parent is being phased out for 'bonus' parent.
To which my reaction is: 'meh'.


05 Jun 21 - 04:32 AM (#4108870)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Since this thread is supposed to cover all UK topics, it seems the best place to discuss the plans for sharing of medical records - the General Practice Data for Planning and Research (GPDPR) system.

I find myself a bit torn on this one, though I have in the end decided to opt-out. However, the way drugs are developed and tested is strongly focused on the their effects in isolation: it is simply impractical to consider all the interactions of a specific drug with all the other drugs on the market. You can check the more obvious interactions, but not much more.   To discover these, you ultimately rely on an individual patient who is taking two or more drugs to report symptoms, that the doctor concerned notices a connection and reports that upwards until eventually that is assessed and recorded as an incompatibility. A data set where all the drugs each patient is taken can be assessed and their interactions determined is potentially a life saver, and shows every sign of being a major health benefit.

But all that level of analysis, detecting of subtle relationships and whatnot is almost entirely in the commercial sector with things like Palantir.

I do not like putting that level of trust in the hands of companies who could easily exploit it.   Promises the data will never be abused, like those on the NHS Digital website would be fine, if there were no criminals anywhere in the world and everyone could be relied on to stay within the law.

So it comes down to how we trade benefit and risk.   As I say, I have decided the risk is too great, but I am not certain of my opinion.


05 Jun 21 - 09:55 AM (#4108889)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Sorry Dick but anyone who puts their heads above the parapet for a living is going to get sniped at. That includes all politicians and anyone in public life. Anyone posting on here is fair game too but there are rules which the moideration team apply pretty evenly. Those who did not recognise the descriptions of Farage, Gove and Johnson (not farage gove johnson BTW) have little business enering this discussion.


05 Jun 21 - 10:13 AM (#4108890)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Sandman - btw.. you could call starmer a "dick" for all I care...

Corbyn deserved more respect, but even then, the tories and far right
had some crackingly hilarious insulting nick names for him...


05 Jun 21 - 11:09 AM (#4108901)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

Is there anything to be read into the recent marriage of Boris Johnson? (And the man apparently doesn't own a comb?)


05 Jun 21 - 12:23 PM (#4108915)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I believe there is, Maggie, but it seems to be a religious rather than political controversy. Certainly not exclusive to The UK!


05 Jun 21 - 12:40 PM (#4108921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

There seems to be a query about the constitutional position of whether a Catholic is permitted to be Prime Minister, responsible for appointing Anglican bishops.


05 Jun 21 - 12:40 PM (#4108922)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

https://leftfootforward.org/2021/06/pms-catholic-wedding-ceremony-triggers-constitutional-questions/


05 Jun 21 - 01:15 PM (#4108926)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I think the "fuss" was because according to catholic tenets divorcees cannot marry in their churches so it was unusual that Johnson was allowed to remarry in Westminster Cathedral the Mother Church of the Roman Catholic faith.


05 Jun 21 - 01:46 PM (#4108930)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

My immediate thought..

In the immediate context of the Cummings revelations and allegations,

..it seemed just like a soldier hurriedly marrying his sweetheart,
before departing overseas to do battle and probably die in combat..

Who knows if and when the happy couple might ever see each other again...???

Though in Boris's case a more appropriate metaphor,
would be an upper class gent about to be arrested for fraud and manslaughter.
Fearful of a very long spell inside..

Whichever version, the new bride potentially faces an uncertain lonely future.
But at least she's got a wedding ring and the man's name to keep her respectable while she's waiting...


Stories straight from the archives of old classic melodramatic black and white movies...


05 Jun 21 - 02:55 PM (#4108939)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: DMcG - PM
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 04:32 AM

Since this thread is supposed to cover all UK topics, it seems the best place to discuss the plans for sharing of medical records - the General Practice Data for Planning and Research (GPDPR) system.


Let's not discuss this as a 'UK' topic. It is related solely to 'NHS England'
I don't expect US members to fully understand the nuances, but UK members should.


05 Jun 21 - 02:59 PM (#4108940)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 05 Jun 21 - 10:13 AM

Sandman - btw.. you could call starmer a "dick" for all I care...

Corbyn deserved more respect, but even then, the tories and far right
had some crackingly hilarious insulting nick names for him..


It wasn't just the 'far right' who didn't like him. His own party (hardly 'far right') got rid of him.

The 'far right' have no control over who leads the Labour Party. Please accept responsibility for your own party's choices.


05 Jun 21 - 03:25 PM (#4108941)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I know, Nigel, but I believe this is the only thread permitted by Mudcat. It is not ideal but it may be the closest we are allowed.


05 Jun 21 - 03:31 PM (#4108942)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”The 'far right' have no control over who leads the Labour Party”

Except insofar as, in the case of Corbyn, it was the Right’s bare-faced lies, trumpeted ad nauseam by their Right-Wing press propaganda-machine, about him - ‘Friend of Terrorists’, ‘Hates this country’, ‘Communist’, ‘Anti-Semite’, yadda yadda - which, at least in part, brought about the mass desertion by ‘Red Wall’ Labour voters at the 2019 GE, which caused the worst defeat for Labour in living memory, which in turn resulted in Corbyn’s demise as leader of the Party.

Not the only cause, but certainly not an insignificant element in events leading to Corbyn’s departure.


05 Jun 21 - 06:57 PM (#4108967)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

What you describe was the role of the right-wing tabloids (which is almost all of them), and, as you say, not the only cause of his demise. The other major factor was the role of his right-wing enemy within, the Ruth Smeeths, the John Manns, the Margaret Hodges, to name but a few, who would do and say anything, including throwing an election, to get rid of him and install one of their own. And look where that's got us. Starmer. We'd have been ten times better off leaving Jeremy in place. At least he would have got his teeth into Johnson. Well, unless you've got a better bloody idea.


05 Jun 21 - 11:16 PM (#4108994)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Steve, my post was in response to Nigel’s assertion that the Tories, in particular the Right Wing, have no influence on who is the leader of the Labour Party. In the case of Corbyn, his political and personal assassination by the Right, ably assisted by their Propaganda-mouthpieces - the tabloids you mention - was most certainly a major factor in his demise, and therefore Nigel is clearly wrong, the Tory Right can, and do, influence the LP in its choice of leader.

That’s all. Nothing more.

I have no intention of getting involved in another discussion with you regarding the current situation within the LP - your intransigence renders such discussions fruitless and pointless. And I deplore the hypocrisy of those who, understandably, protest the undermining and back-stabbing of JC, but who are themselves busy now undermining and back-stabbing the current Leader.

You know my views - that the Party should always be put before Personality, and that LP members and MPs should be focussing on fighting the worst, most damaging, most divisive Tory government in our lifetimes, and achieving success at the next GE, rather than fighting each other. That was my view when JC was the leader - during which leadership I supported him, here and elsewhere, despite doubting his ability to lead the Party in to government (justified, in the event) - and it is still my view.

Despite my doubts, I voted for Corbyn’s version of Labour at the 2019 GE and, despite my doubts, I will vote for Starmer’s version of Labour (assuming he’s still the Leader, not necessarily a given) at the next GE. The people the Labour Party was formed to fight for - the weakest and most down-trodden in our society - and whom far too many Members seem to have forgotten about while they fight their seedy internal ideological battles, deserve nothing less.

That’s it, I’m done here. And, this time, I mean it.


06 Jun 21 - 02:03 AM (#4109004)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I think Labour's biggest problem is northern hussies who won't keep their mouth shut.


06 Jun 21 - 03:36 AM (#4109009)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Backwoodsman is in effect saying that he supports a party regardless of their policies.its the rhinoceros syndrome


06 Jun 21 - 04:35 AM (#4109015)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

He is saying the exact opposite, Dick. He says that a party should be supported for its policies, not the character of its leader. I tend to disagree as the leader has a great role in steering those policies but if I am going to argue with him I will at least try to argue the correct points!


06 Jun 21 - 05:10 AM (#4109018)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

You’re absolutely correct, Dave, and I believe that any Labour government, no matter who leads it, is preferable to this bunch of Tories who are busy mis-governing the country for their own benefit right now.


06 Jun 21 - 06:16 AM (#4109022)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

The backstabbing, etc., of Corbyn was predicated on a pack of lies about him. Criticism of Starmer (call it backstabbing if you must) is far more to do with his lack of charisma and inability to oppose the policies of the Tories. He's behind the curve at every juncture. The Tories have done so many disastrously wrong things, and killed tens of thousands of people thereby, in the last fifteen months, yet you'd still hardly think that we have an opposition at all. It isn't backstabbing to express frustration at this. A good, alert, aggressive Labour leader would have made mincemeat of Johnson months ago. I seriously want Starmer to do well, and wanting to give him a good kick up the 'arris, and saying it out loud, is not undermining him in my view. Shutting up about it and thereby permitting a cosy, complacent bunch of establishment New Labour-manqué middle-of-the-roaders to rule the roost is no way forward and will simply give Johnson a free pass next time around.


06 Jun 21 - 12:00 PM (#4109047)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Backwoodsman:
Steve, my post was in response to Nigel’s assertion that the Tories, in particular the Right Wing, have no influence on who is the leader of the Labour Party. In the case of Corbyn, his political and personal assassination by the Right, ably assisted by their Propaganda-mouthpieces - the tabloids you mention - was most certainly a major factor in his demise, and therefore Nigel is clearly wrong, the Tory Right can, and do, influence the LP in its choice of leader.

Please don't deliberately misquote me just in order to continue your rant. I did not say "the Tories, in particular the Right Wing, have no influence on who is the leader of the Labour Party"
What I said was: It wasn't just the 'far right' who didn't like him. His own party (hardly 'far right') got rid of him.
The 'far right' have no control over who leads the Labour Party. Please accept responsibility for your own party's choices.


Through the tabloids the right may have some influence, but no control, of the Labour Party's election process. The Labour Party elected Corbyn as leader, the Labour Party replaced him as leader.
The Labour Party is so riven by internal factions that I doubt there is much agreement about which was the better idea, election or replacement.


06 Jun 21 - 12:20 PM (#4109050)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - thanks for putting us straight on everything again..

I don't know what us confused simple minded lefties would do
without your absolutely authorative astute political truths and guidance...

I wish I had a friend like you to accompany me to elections
to stop me from habitually being silly voting for Labour.

You make it so obvious I should vote conservative.
But it just doesn't sink in.
Then I get all discombobulated inthe heat of the moment,
and vote labour again.. doh...!!!!!

You're doing a magnificent noble job, but here's no helping us, is there...


06 Jun 21 - 01:29 PM (#4109055)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones

DMcG, I am intrigued by your post.

"the way drugs are developed and tested is strongly focused on the their effects in isolation". Well yes (if we discount, for example, adjuvant and neoadjuvant trials). The purpose of a trial is to discover if a drug is (1) safe and (2) more effective than anything else currently on the market for that particular condition.

"You ultimately rely on an individual patient who is taking two or more drugs to report symptoms, that the doctor concerned notices a connection and reports that upwards until eventually that is assessed and recorded as an incompatibility". I don't think so. I think you are saying that "incompatibilities" - side effects? - are "ultimately" discovered at the micro - or individual - level? My experience is that adverse events are examined at a macro - or large dataset (not necessarily so-called big data) level, where the confidence intervals and statistical powers can be calculated and hypotheses tested (not by physicians, but by statisticians and/or epidemiologists - most physicians of my acquaintance delight in saying how frightened they are of statistics). These data are collected from anonymised GP records, hospital data or (in the case of, e.g., the US) medical insurance information. As a freelancer, every contract I have signed with a pharma client in the past twenty years has included an agreement to report - immediately - any adverse event occurring to someone taking one of their drugs (be it someone at a party telling me about their uncle, or even hearing an item on a radio programme) - information that is added to these data above. Also, I'm not sure that, even if you sign yourself out of GPDR, data concerning you that has been anonymised will be excluded from datasets created for the purpose of pharmacovigilance. If these data cannot be linked to you then they might not be considered personal data.

"Detecting of subtle relationships and whatnot is almost entirely in the commercial sector with things like Palantir". Drugs are mostly developed in the commercial sector, so unsurprisingly their long-term effects are also calculated almost entirely in the commercial sector, although this can be at the behest of the regulatory authorities as statutory requirements. This may not be the best way, but it's how things work at the moment. Universities and hospitals also do this kind of research, sometimes in partnership with pharma companies. There are plenty of statistical methods to detect interactions, relationships, correlations, clusters, etc., so I'm not sure why you mention Palantir. I'd never heard of it, but a quick search on t'inter tells me that it's a proprietary bit of software, and I can't see anything in their website blurb that I've not seen elsewhere - significantly, it says that it is being used by 'a' (i.e., one) top pharma company. I would put money on this meaning that their sales team have managed to get under the guard of one company and has given them a trial licence, possibly free of charge with a lot of analytical support, to try and get a toe-hold into an industry that already has plenty of tools for this purpose.

I'm not saying that you're wrong: I would be sincerely (and professionally) in your debt if you would bung down something that confirms what you say and corrects my misapprehensions.


06 Jun 21 - 01:39 PM (#4109058)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

no.
he is not, he is saying that he votes labour despite the differing policies of corbyn and starmer, he votes labour regardlessof differing policies he voted labour despite his reservations about corbyn, he votes labour regardless of starmers leadership
he probably supported blair whose policies were apart from northern ireland...conservative policies, the man[blair.]who supported the bombing of iraq.


06 Jun 21 - 01:46 PM (#4109061)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

He has already confirmed that my analysis was correct, Dick. Try a bit of comprehension instead of reading what you want to hear into the posts of others.


06 Jun 21 - 03:03 PM (#4109068)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Dave, you are correct in your analysis. I support the policies of the Labour Party, irrespective of who is the leader, on the basis that (as I said earlier) ANY Labour government is preferable to a Conservative one.

Thank you for your support, it’s much appreciated, but I recommend you to do as I’m doing - ignore the troll, he is once again playing his childish playground game of following me around and trying to provoke a fight.


06 Jun 21 - 03:10 PM (#4109069)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

I've been noticing for some time now that in the States the rightists are going after Vice President Kamala Harris at every opportunity. They are attempting the same character assassination that they practised on Hilary Clinton. Is this going on in the U.K. on one or both locations of the political spectrum?
Has your politics become effectively a two-party system?


06 Jun 21 - 03:22 PM (#4109072)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

to quote back woodsman, bugger off


06 Jun 21 - 04:09 PM (#4109078)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I had never seen such a character assassination as the one done on Jeremy Cornyn and hope to never see another. It was politics at its ugliest.


06 Jun 21 - 06:05 PM (#4109099)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Nothing to disagree with there, Dave. And I’ll bet my pension the Tories will start it up again leading up to the next GE - wonder who their next victim will be?


06 Jun 21 - 06:39 PM (#4109105)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I sent Vincent Jones a PM because I was too busy to reply earlier, so I am repeating some of that here.

To some extent at least, I think any problem is down to phrasing myself badly. That is, I am afraid, not that rare. I should also say I am not talking from any expertise in the drug or medical industry (though I have some in statistics.)

When I said "You ultimately rely on an individual patient who is taking two or more drugs to report symptoms, that the doctor concerned notices a connection and reports that upwards until eventually that is assessed and recorded as an incompatibility" it was intended to be more or less equivalent to "every contract I have signed with a pharma client in the past twenty years has included an agreement to report - immediately - any adverse event occurring to someone taking one of their drugs": it is that base collection of data that drives the whole process.   Once you have that base data, it is indeed necessary to collect it into larger datasets and hit it with a lot of statistical analyses, confidence measures, multi-variant hypotheses testing and weird and wonderful mathematics to try to extract the most meaningful data, which will sometimes result in statements of the form "patients taking A and B might get side effect S (including how often, how severe and so on). That triggers a process that may ultimately end up in such things as warnings on the leaflets accompanying drugs A and B.

That the NHS England data is an extremely useful data set to analyse the interactions of drugs (especially those with no immediately obvious links) is certain. In particular, it can give us information, using my A and B example, to determine how many people do not have side effects (naturally, people do not report not having a side effect unless explicitly asked.) It can also determine that people who took A and B reported having S without realising it was a side effect at all. Or might even end up revealing the issue is not A and B at all, but A and something else, but the patient assumed it was B because they had recently changed medication.

So I do not under-value the potential benefits of the NHS data at all. Where my concerns arise is with who has got access to such a valuable commodity. The NHS England web site is definite that the data will not be made available to insurance companies, for example. But in truth all they can really say is there is no intention of doing so. In a few years, with another government, and new priorities who can really say? Added to that, we have to recognise everyone is fallible and not everyone is honest. There have been plenty of examples over the years of civil servants leaving secret documents/laptops on trains and such like. Mistakes will happen, because that is human nature. I pick on insurance companies because they would have an obvious interest, but there are many others.

I make the assumption that company C1 has an near-perfect understanding of its own products, but a much more limited knowledge of those of company C2, and vice versa. If there is a company that is especially adept at analysing the data - A1 - then if C1 can form an exclusive relationship with A1 it could significantly alter the market to disadvantage C2. This is why, in my mind, A1 should not be a commercial body, and if it must be it should certainly not be in a monopolistic position.

Now, there is always a level of trust in these systems. If I choose to opt out, I assume that sets a flag on my data. With human fallibility some coder will at some time accidentally fail to check the flag when they extract data for processing. There is nothing I can do about that. All I can do is choose where to draw the boundaries of where I have to take things on trust and I have to do so recognising that if enough people choose not to share their data, it reduces the potential benefits of the data.

It is, as I said, not an especially easy decision to decide whether to opt out or not. Other people's thoughts are welcome.


07 Jun 21 - 02:10 AM (#4109130)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

I can't help wondering whether opting out will label me as unco-operative, and result in my being regarded as less important if there is limited availability of a treatment I need in the future.


07 Jun 21 - 03:04 AM (#4109136)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

One thing I mentioned before that I did not cover on my second attempt is that while the system of testing is focused on side effects of a drug (and closely related ones), when it gets out of the lab and into the real world the number of possible interacting drugs rapidly increases. It is not rare for people to be taking, for example, a drug for depression, one for a heart problem, a blood thinner, something for osteoarthritis and the occasional aspirin or paracetamol. Another person might be taking statins, something for low or high blood pressure and some herbal compound which was not prescribed but has an active components. People mainly take combinations of drugs, not a single drug.

With the best testing in the world, and every good intention, it is simply not feasible to address all possible combinations of all possible drugs. The pharma companies will certainly test the more obvious possible sources of issues, but it is not practical to cover everything.


07 Jun 21 - 06:52 AM (#4109150)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones

But DMcG, it doesn't work like that, mate. Don't want to give clients' secrets away, or turn this into a statistics symposium, but I'd say that a drug company that starts with the wonderful intention of considering every possible drug combination and tests for adverse events for each and every one, using the best testing in the world, has gone arse over tit. No, you rake together all the data you can grab on how the drug's used in the real world and look for adverse events. Then, for each such event, look for predictors, including drug combos. All standard practice as taught to baby epidemiologists once they're allowed solid food.

Your original concern (if I'm right) is whether your refusal to allow your personal data to be used will affect how long term effects are found. I don't think so. My understanding is that all such events, and the circumstances in which they occur, are reported (anonymised) to the pharma company by the general practice or hospital as a matter of course, and as a legal requirement - the only way an individual can stop the data being passed on is by avoiding all health care professionals.

Now I just need to work out how to get to the DMs.


07 Jun 21 - 07:02 AM (#4109152)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

New techniques because of the invention of CRISPR has changed the old pharma status quo. Thats how rna vaccines took only one year to get into arms..


07 Jun 21 - 07:05 AM (#4109154)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

No, you rake together all the data you can grab on how the drug's used in the real world and look for adverse events

Yes, but I was mainly thinking about the trials before it goes into general use when I was talking about testing for interactions with other drugs. At that stage, you are primarily concentrating on a (relatively) small set of other drugs where you suspect possible interactions surely? Once it goes into wider use, yes, you are gathering what real world data you can. Which is exactly why the NHS England data is so valuable.

Thank you for your comments so far. It is always useful to hear from someone with more experience of a subject than I have!


07 Jun 21 - 07:09 AM (#4109157)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

And by opting out I was referring to the NHS Digital 'opt-out' of data sharing


07 Jun 21 - 10:00 AM (#4109176)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Big corporations rely on the fact that opting out is a pain in the arse for most ordinary citizens,
already too busy dealing with problems..

So right now I've got to find time and motivation to opt-out of this this
New medical scheme..

Amazon Prime's new Echo neighborhood broadband sharing scheme..

.. and any other opt-outs I've already forgotten about..

Chances are like most folk I'll just just put off thinking about this until it's too late...


07 Jun 21 - 11:28 AM (#4109184)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Vincent Jones
To get to your DMs just scroll to the top of this page and (below "The Mudcat Cafe") click on "personal page"

Cheers


08 Jun 21 - 08:18 AM (#4109322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Vincent Jones

This has been really informative to me.

You put that NHS Englad data (from which you have chosen to opt-out) "is an extremely useful data set to analyse the interactions of drugs (especially those with no immediately obvious links) is certain."

This has led me to look at the NHS England data (something I should have done a long time ago), but I can't find any aspect of it that will enable such analysis. Perhaps I'm looking in the wrong places. Where did you get this information, DMcG? I've looked over the NHS England lists of data and it looks perfect for resourcing but extremely light on drug analysis.


08 Jun 21 - 09:33 AM (#4109328)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’m rather more concerned that our data is to be farmed as part of a ‘Due Diligence’ exercise being carried out prior to the sale of some, perhaps most, maybe even all, of the NHS to US private health-care companies.

We’ve opted out.


08 Jun 21 - 09:39 AM (#4109329)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And of course, I meant ‘harvested’, not ‘farmed’. It’s all being kept dark and hush-hush by this government of ours that would sell its kids for tuppence, and it’s reminiscent of the kind of manœvres that, as a Management and Financial Accountant, I was involved in with regard to company disposals and acquisitions during my working life.


08 Jun 21 - 10:17 AM (#4109335)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

That puts some warm glow in my sense of moral superiority...

Walking away from a career in accountancy when I was 18 was a splendid act of defiant idealistic bravado..

It was also one of the most stupid life decisions I ever made,
seeing as I've been so skint ever since...

It was only years afterwards that I realised so many of my anti-capitalist hippie and punk counterculture influencers,
were public school educated and supported by very comfortably well off families..

Garrett...!!!!!


08 Jun 21 - 10:22 AM (#4109337)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Garrett.. who the f*** is Garrett.. !!!???

I typed "Grrrrrr"..

Or at least I thought I did..

Bloody tiny mobile phone Type pads and screens...

Grrrrrrrrrrr.....


08 Jun 21 - 01:18 PM (#4109347)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Roll out of NHS England data sharing postponed until September


08 Jun 21 - 01:37 PM (#4109352)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Also turns out the impending Amazon neighbourhood broadband sharing opt out deadline is USA only...

.. not UK.. for now...


08 Jun 21 - 06:13 PM (#4109389)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I hadn't answered Vincent's question about what data is going to be available and whether is geared for.resources rather than analysis of specific medicines. I gather that the current data is more resources oriented (except for very specific research work) but the replacement system.will be much broader. &ere is an extract from the NHS information on the system, talking about how it is based round records of individuals:
We take our responsibility to safeguard patient data extremely seriously. Data shared by NHS Digital is subject to strict rules around privacy, security and confidentiality and the new service has been designed to the highest standards. 

We do not collect patients’ names or exactly where they live. Any other data that could directly identify someone, for example their NHS number, full postcode and date of birth, is pseudonymised before it leaves their GP practice. This means that this data is replaced with unique codes so patients cannot be directly identified in the data which is shared with us. The data is also securely encrypted.

We would only ever re-identify the data if there was a lawful reason to do so and it would need to be compliant with data protection law. For example, a patient may have agreed to take part in a research project or clinical trial and has already provided consent to their data being shared with the researchers for this purpose. 

So while it will need suitable approvals, it always possible to 're-identify' the data - ie trace it back to an individual. That means we are not just talking about aggregated data - "there were 27 cases of broken shoulders this month" - but are listing all 27 cases, with anonomised ids. The link I gave says almost the entire medical history will be accessible, including all the individual medicines, treatments, etc. The NHS Digital site says it collects

data about diagnoses, symptoms, observations, test results, medications, allergies, immunisations, referrals, recalls and appointments, including information about physical, mental and sexual health

data on sex, ethnicity and sexual orientation

data about staff who have treated patients

It is not entirely clear to me that all these are related to the same anonymised id, though that seems most likely to me.


09 Jun 21 - 03:12 AM (#4109430)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

the uk government should be building new schools and new hospitals that are designed to cope with viruses.


09 Jun 21 - 05:41 AM (#4109439)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Now the the UK passport is no longer recognised as a document that allows freedom of movement across 28 countries, why are the leeches at the passport office still charging £75.50 for a renewal when it is only worth £2.70?


09 Jun 21 - 06:48 AM (#4109444)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Forget travel..
a British passport is valid photo ID when dealing with local petty bureaucrats, while confined in our own nation..

That's the only reason I renewed mine a few years ago


09 Jun 21 - 06:58 AM (#4109445)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Though it's bloody expensive,
and applying for one is a bureaucratic pain in the arse in itself..

How much would any future proposed UK National Identity card likely be...???

Mind you, the post office passport photo machine
has made me look very white..

The colour balance must have been set by a brexiteer engineer...!!!???


09 Jun 21 - 07:20 AM (#4109447)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

It is expensive in some ways, but very similar to the price I paid for my Irish passport. Holding both is more symbolic than practical, as my wife only holds a British passport, and sitting in the cafe while she is stuck in a queue is not worth the potential earache.


09 Jun 21 - 08:34 AM (#4109453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

They are not fit for purpose. They do not work at e-gates in other European countries. If my partner and I decide to travel together to another European country when Covid restrictions are behind us we would need to stand in different passports queues and be subject to different passport regulations rather than being free to travel as a couple, that makes us officially sub-human.


10 Jun 21 - 09:08 AM (#4109565)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

President Biden, who is more teetering than your Queen, today visits Boris Johnson, your latter day Winston Churchhill, :roll eyes:
Perhaps you will believe there is a complete US return to Democracy and NATO but not even Japan is buying it.


11 Jun 21 - 02:50 AM (#4109636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Had to laugh at the phrasing of this!

"Boris Johnson’s guests are set to enjoy buttered rum, an indoor rainforest and a beach barbecue with local sea shanties"

Local sea shanties, eh? That's an interesting concept.


11 Jun 21 - 03:01 AM (#4109638)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator - PM
Date: 09 Jun 21 - 05:41 AM

Now the the UK passport is no longer recognised as a document that allows freedom of movement across 28 countries, why are the leeches at the passport office still charging £75.50 for a renewal when it is only worth £2.70?
not quite true ireland is an exception, but otherwise i take your point


11 Jun 21 - 03:21 AM (#4109641)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Now the the UK passport is no longer recognised as a document that allows freedom of movement across 28 countries

Just to head off Nigel, that is not what the passport does or did. As far as the countries of Europe are concerned, the UK passport has not changed significantly since before the EU existed, and for countries outside the EU it is entirely unchanged.

You can travel as freely to the countries now (leaving the covid-19 stuff aside) as you could while we were in the EU, apart from joining a different queue at the border, and you many need something like the US ESTA eventually.

"Freedom of movement" has always been, in my view, a poor choice of words. It is more like "freedom of employment" really. That has been lost, but the ability to visit has not.


11 Jun 21 - 03:59 AM (#4109647)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

the leechesat the pass port office are in the business of exploting the stuation, just like the pharma companies, politics seems to be about quick fix


11 Jun 21 - 06:23 AM (#4109661)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

DMcG - freedom of movement also means freedom to enter into a relationship with someone from another country that has the same freedoms. Now if you want to enter into a relationship and live together, it has to be with someone is suitable in the eyes of the government, while if you want a relationship with a British dug dealer or child abuses - no problem as far as priti vacant is concerned.

There have already been cases where people from EU countries have been denied entry because they 'might' illegally work during the 90 days that they are entitled to visit for, and before the A8 acquisition, it was fairly routine for young people to immediately be sent back home IN CASE they overstay.


11 Jun 21 - 06:33 AM (#4109663)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

also freedom to stay for more than 90 days in any 180 period has been lost. In my eyes, the value of my passport has gone down and the price should reflect this, and not the cost of processing applications.
what is the point of having a biometric passport if they do not work on e-passport gates?


11 Jun 21 - 06:38 AM (#4109664)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I agree, SPB-Cooperator. it is not really possible to completely summarise FoM in a few words - it always includes either too much or too little. I just wanted to be clear that it is not really about the right to enter a country on holiday, for example. FoM is more significant than that.


11 Jun 21 - 07:33 AM (#4109669)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

1399...


11 Jun 21 - 08:29 AM (#4109675)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

1400! ;-)


11 Jun 21 - 08:38 AM (#4109677)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

1399 - Henry IV crowned King of England.
1400 - Sack of Aleppo

A lot of other things happened in those years, just picked 2.


11 Jun 21 - 09:06 AM (#4109679)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

spb, they are not going to give you a reduction on your pass port so forget about it


11 Jun 21 - 09:23 AM (#4109683)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I'll settle for Freedom of Movement any day of the week (for myself to EU and my partner to UK).


11 Jun 21 - 10:41 AM (#4109690)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Politicians represent those who pay them the most.Steve it is time to stop believing in the system


11 Jun 21 - 02:22 PM (#4109715)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

That's the irony. Political decisions have consequences, and taking ending FoM as an example, the government should at least have the decency to admit that they want the consequences to happen instead of trying to brush collateral damage under the carpet.


11 Jun 21 - 06:04 PM (#4109741)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Steve who?


12 Jun 21 - 03:50 AM (#4109782)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

spb his name is also steve . governments do not believe in decency they are their to do the bidding of the highest payers that is who they represent, the multi nationals, the very rich


12 Jun 21 - 05:05 AM (#4109789)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Ah, I didn't know that. You had me scratching my head there and trawling the thread to find out what I might have said...


12 Jun 21 - 04:45 PM (#4109883)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

In keeping with the current trend of teachers calling themselves academics at Oxbridge Universities behaving like wokie imbeciles in the name of anti racism, I would suggest USAian universities follow suit by taking down the stars & stripes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


13 Jun 21 - 03:25 AM (#4109960)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

"EU marriages will fall into the sham marriage referral and investigation scheme."

Appalling, I think, but a fairly inevitable consequence of Brexit if one aim is to reduce EU/non-EU distinctions of citizenship.


13 Jun 21 - 11:25 AM (#4110004)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

The same MUST apply to marriages between UK nationals. I can't say what I want to say as I would have to use language that is extremely offensive to women. If this actually happens, this proves that everyone who works for the home office is a racist neo-nazis and should be named, shamed and ostracised by society along with their families. Teachers should stand their children up in from of the class and explain to the class how inhumanely their parents are treating decent people.


13 Jun 21 - 12:45 PM (#4110015)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

.... should be named, shamed and ostracised by society along with their families.

Guilt by association. I am not my brother's keeper.

DC


13 Jun 21 - 12:57 PM (#4110017)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

In the case of Home Office officials there is a clear case for that. They choose to apply for the jobs, obey orders and take the pay, They are the individual people enacting inhumanity on fellow human beings, and should not be allowed to hide behind anonymity under the excuse of 'only obeying orders'.


13 Jun 21 - 01:50 PM (#4110024)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Assuming you’re correct, they are the guilty parties, not their families. In the UK, we punish wrong-doers, not their spouses and children - that is a basic legal principle.


13 Jun 21 - 02:26 PM (#4110029)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

"EU marriages will fall into the sham marriage referral and investigation scheme."
Appalling, I think, but a fairly inevitable consequence of Brexit if one aim is to reduce EU/non-EU distinctions of citizenship.


It was always stated that one intention of Brexit was to stop giving preferential treatment to EU citizens when compared to the rest of the world. This just standardises that treatment. It just means that people coming from EU to marry in UK will be checked by the Home Office, as currently happens with citizens of America, Armenia, Australia and over 100 other countries in the same circumstances.

Details per HM Government are Here


13 Jun 21 - 02:39 PM (#4110030)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

How dare you suggest that my Czech partner and I lose the right to choose to do so without the permission of the Home Office. Only a racist would defend levelling down rather than levelling up? If you believe in equality then did you seek Home Office permission before you got married, or are you a superior race to me???????


13 Jun 21 - 06:23 PM (#4110043)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Quite so SPB, It is disgraceful


13 Jun 21 - 10:19 PM (#4110064)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

GB News channel...????????????????????

.. well I sat through the hour long intro video late last night..

Hmmmmmmm.....



Supposed to be starting full service today...


14 Jun 21 - 12:39 AM (#4110075)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

When I said these upcomingchanges to subject marriages to EU citizens to the checks was "fairly inevitable" I perhaps did not explain that "fairly". As Nigel correctly says, it was one of the aims to treat EU and non-EU the same, right from the start. The "fairly relates to how it was done: a quiet change of bureaucracy with little notice or public awareness and complete disregard of the fact that real people are affected. It is an example of "act without considering the impact" that I thought fairly inevitable.

There was no need to act immediately. People could have been informed by a public campaign this specific change was coming in, and been given say two years to make.any changes to circumstances they needed. But no, act as if people are not involved at all. That was the "fairly inevitable"


14 Jun 21 - 03:45 AM (#4110084)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

There was no need to act immediately. People could have been informed by a public campaign this specific change was coming in, and been given say two years to make any changes to circumstances they needed. But no, act as if people are not involved at all. That was the "fairly inevitable"

"Could have been given two years"? Instead they've only had a year and a half (1 Jan 2020 to 30 June 2021). It shouldn't need a public information campaign. Anyone wishing to marry has to apply for a marriage license, at that stage they would be reminded of the rules.


14 Jun 21 - 04:35 AM (#4110087)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

No, Nigel, I meant two years after the start of the public information campaign that their rights may have been affected. Sorry if that was not clear.

It is far too late to tell prospective couples when they apply for the marriage licence, because they may need to make other changes to, for example, their residency to guarantee the granting of the licence. Those alterations take time.

My biggest objection to this is that the frame of mind of the Home Office is not "this is a change coming because of Brexit, but we will do all we can to make things as easy as possible for you within that constraint". It is more "It's your problem." They appear to see it as a bureaucratic issue more akin to moving some filing cabinets from one floor to another than something that affects real individuals.


14 Jun 21 - 07:01 AM (#4110098)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

"Two years after the public information campaign". So that would be this October then. The public information campaign started before Brexit in October 2019: Here
I know that since then I've seen advertising for applying for settled status on advertising hoardings, in the newspapers and on tv. Even without the advertising I would have expected those who will come under these changes to have searched for information.


14 Jun 21 - 07:47 AM (#4110106)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Sigh.

The public information that people's marriage rights are changing if they want to marry someone from the EU. That is not the same thing as settled status for someone who is from the EU.

And can you not even acknowledge SPG-Cooperator's situation? Nothing in any of your recent post's does.


14 Jun 21 - 08:50 AM (#4110112)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

it is not so much the beaurocracy (for that read paying pointless fees to keep a leech in employment to carry out a pointless job), it is the hostile environment that assumes that somoni is going to break immigration law unless they can prove otherwise - ie guilty of intent to carry out a crime until proven innocent.

We already see cases on a daily basis where people who have arrived as part of the Windrush generation facing deportation 50-60 years later due to the the home office failing to keep proper records. We read cases of their children who came over as infants who have only known life in UK, were educated hear and worked to provide vital services and pay decades of taxes being threatened with being removed to another country with which they have no living family ties or emotional connection, and no guarantee of a secure life when they have been deported. We read cases of people from Europe already being turned away because they might not return within 90 days.

And you are asking me to believe this is a FAIR system, and people who intend to get married will be treated fairly? Do you really believe that people who are pursuing their dream of a long and happy relationship together will have no lasting damage when a mindless official whose own lives are pathetic effectively tells the couple that they are not entitled to get married?

Well this may be fine for racist garbage who see this as a means of having less foreigners' lowering their property values, but those of us have to bear the consequences of your xenophobia.

p.s. I have seen a lot of government information abut preparing for leaving the EU. Ridiculous posts dictating to businesses who they can and can't employ, and processes that line the pockets of more leeches for people who want to employ someone from the EU. For example, if I wanted to employ my partner as my pa for a few hour a week I would have to pay a leech to register as an employer, I would have to pay something like £180/hour for a 5-6-7 hour/week job, and it would be a face piece of **** who would make a decision of whether or not I would be allowed to employ her.

This all, collectively evidences that in the view of the government, those who fall in love with someone from outside the UK is a lower species of human being compared with someone who falls in love with a Broth person. Anyone who dares to suggest that this is not Naziism should read Miep Gies.


14 Jun 21 - 09:48 AM (#4110120)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Anti immigration enforcement is most probably based on bitter jealous fear
that foreigners can be more attractive and desirable,
than most pasty blotchy potato faced indigenous British xenophobes...?????


14 Jun 21 - 10:11 AM (#4110125)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

Much as though bureaucracy is an inconvenience to all and everybody , SBS,it is essential for the functioning of any modern economy. Don’t forget that Brexit was sold to the British public by newspapers like the Express raging against EU bureaucracy .


14 Jun 21 - 10:14 AM (#4110126)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

And can you not even acknowledge SPG-Cooperator's situation? Nothing in any of your recent post's does.

I acknowledge SPB's post, but chose not to comment on his personal situation even if I could understand his comments. It appears that he, in common with remainers, assumes that Brexit is just a racist policy.


14 Jun 21 - 11:50 AM (#4110141)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

I am sorry to hear of the problems that SPB and others are now facing due to the change in circumstances.

Do you know how the regulations would affect you if you were to marry and live in your partner's homeland?


15 Jun 21 - 10:50 AM (#4110258)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yorkshire Bylines hitting the nail on the head as usual :-)

Johnson’s alternative address to the nation

Good evening. Err, um, www, err, sausages, err, um, where was I, err, www, yes, no, Great Britain.


15 Jun 21 - 11:59 AM (#4110261)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Brilliant! All the more so because it’s totally believable…


15 Jun 21 - 12:04 PM (#4110262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

But perhaps not believable that the PM would say it...


15 Jun 21 - 12:34 PM (#4110266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

"Led by Donkeys" video about the UK reaction to the India variant

It is made more effective, I think, by being almost a strictly factual account.


15 Jun 21 - 05:08 PM (#4110293)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Part of me (wrongly) holds the view that as this is a total f-up my Johnson, the delta variant should be allowed to run rampant (already nudging 200,000 - 250,000 new cases per month compared with 10,000 this time last year) through the c0mmnity rather than inconvenience us. It is Johnson's problem so Johnson should sort it out while we get on with our lives - I know pandemics don't work that way. IT would also mean that any rise in hospitalisations and excess deaths is Johnson problem alone. Even though these numbers are currently low, it can take two weeks to a mpnth for these figures to follow the new infections curve.

Also,as Johnson knew about the risk back in the end of May, it can be safely assumed that cabinet office, senior NHS employees and Health Department officers also knew about this, and should be thrown in prison for failing to leak this to the media.


16 Jun 21 - 03:32 AM (#4110324)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

An excellent example of weasel words here, talking about the Australian deal.
"It contained “the strongest possible provisions for animal welfare”, the prime minister argued, telling journalists: “We had to negotiate very hard.”
So you are meant to read that as the provisions are strong. But it does not say that at all. It simply says they were the best we could get given the desperation to get a deal. An absolutely terrible set of provisions could still be the 'strongest possible'.
In short, you are supposed to focus on the word 'strongest', whereas you should really be focusing on 'possible'.


16 Jun 21 - 08:43 PM (#4110433)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

https://yorkshirebylines.co.uk/outsourcing-morality-dido-harding-wants-the-top-job-at-the-nhs/


17 Jun 21 - 03:13 AM (#4110452)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

That really is scary, PFR :-(


17 Jun 21 - 03:19 AM (#4110453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

A revolution is needed


17 Jun 21 - 04:30 AM (#4110457)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Just a decent government, Dick.


17 Jun 21 - 02:04 PM (#4110492)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

that is difficult to achieve, with gerry mandering and first past the post and mps who represent corporations as well as their constituents. mps are elected to represent the constituents that gave them a majority not represent other outside interests


17 Jun 21 - 02:11 PM (#4110494)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Voting in a Tory MP,
is like trusting Winnie-the-Pooh with the keys to a honey cupboard...


.. (that's a family friendly version metaphor)..


18 Jun 21 - 02:00 AM (#4110536)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

MPs should represent the best interests of the country, Dick. Just pandering to what their constituents say is populism and that has landed us in the shit we are in today. I do agree about FPTP although I am not sure if PR is the best alternative.


18 Jun 21 - 05:50 AM (#4110555)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

the best intersts of the country, means the best intersts of the people that elected them, that is their constituents is it not? it is not the intersts of multinationals who pay them a retainer who have effectively bought the MP.
NOT THE BEST INTERST OF THE COUNTRY AND THE BEST INTERST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ELECTED THEM.


18 Jun 21 - 09:03 AM (#4110566)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. but the best interests of people who vote tory,
is far from compatable with the best interests of the country..

.. that's the problem...!!!


18 Jun 21 - 09:50 AM (#4110567)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Another slide down the slippery slope towards fascism.

If governments cannot be scrutinised and held to account for wrong doing, it is another nail in the coffin for democracy.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/electoral-commission-boris-johnson-flat-b1868407.html?utm_content=Echobox&utm_med


18 Jun 21 - 10:20 AM (#4110570)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

The link to the Independent says:
Boris Johnson is to strip the Electoral Commission of the power to prosecute law-breaking, just weeks after it launched an investigation into his controversial flat refurbishment.

The watchdog has been threatened with curbs ever since it embarrassed senior Tory figures by fining Vote Leave for busting spending limits for the Brexit referendum.


I do wonder why "The Electoral Commission", a body responsible for "integrity and transparency of party election finance" was conducting an inquiry into the payment for the PM's flat.
Possibly claims that they are a party political body, and acting beyond their remit, are correct.
Their action against "Vote Leave" following the referendum was judged by the High Court to have been because Vote Leave acted on guidance given to them by The Electoral Commission themselves.


18 Jun 21 - 10:55 AM (#4110573)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

If you are happy to live in a state where a government removes powers for it to be prosecuted for criminal offenses then that is your choice. it is definitely not mine unless the entire population has the right to break electoral law without fear of prosecution.

I would be equally disgusted if this was proposed by Labour, Lib Dems, Greens, Buckethead or the Monster Raving Looney Party.

It is an essential tenet of democracy that those who breach electoral law must be held to account.


18 Jun 21 - 11:06 AM (#4110574)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

If you are happy to live in a state where a government removes powers for it to be prosecuted for criminal offenses then that is your choice.

No, that is not a choice I am making. But as I pointed out, the Electoral Commission have not shown themselves suitable to hold such powers.

As Gina Miller showed quite clearly in 2019, it is quite possible for even a member of the public to hold the government to account, and to take them to court for their electoral actions.


18 Jun 21 - 11:21 AM (#4110577)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

As Gina Miller showed quite clearly in 2019, it is quite possible for even a member of the public to hold the government to account, and to take them to court for their electoral actions

It has been, yes. Which is no doubt part of the reason the Conservative election Manifesto for 2019 said

We will ensure that
judicial review is available to protect
the rights of the individuals against an
overbearing state, while ensuring that
it is not abused to conduct politics by
another means or to create needless
delays. In our first year we will set
up a Constitution, Democracy &
Rights Commission that will examine
these issues in depth, and come
up with proposals to restore trust
in our institutions and in how our
democracy operates.



Which of course immediately raises the question who gets to decide if an action like Gina's is fair or abusing the courts] to conduct politics by another means or to create needless delays.


18 Jun 21 - 11:34 AM (#4110579)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG:
Presumably your quote has answered your own question:
In our first year we will set up a Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission that will examine these issues in depth, and come up with proposals to restore trust in our institutions and in how our
democracy operates


Of course it appears that that commission has yet to be set up, but Covid has intervened.
That commission would appear to supersede the Electoral Commission, and the prior removal of the Electoral Commission may be required to allow the Constitution, Democracy & Rights Commission to be brought into place.


18 Jun 21 - 11:46 AM (#4110580)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Not really. The delay in setting up the commission is almost certainly covid related, so does not need much more commentary.

When Gina brought her case, there is not the slightest doubt that the Government would have stopped the proceedings if they could. The paragraph is in the manifesto, in my opinion, to ensure that if any similar situation arose, they could do so. I can see no other reasonable explanation why it is present.

I feel little reassurance in the promise of a Commission where the Government selects who is a member and whose report is quite possibly only advisory, leading to some Bill that gives Parliament or a Government appointed body the power to stop cases that are felt to be "conducting politics by other means".


19 Jun 21 - 03:10 AM (#4110651)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Conservative majority overturned by a party that is pro european


19 Jun 21 - 04:41 AM (#4110657)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

the best intersts of the country, means the best intersts of the people that elected them

Not really, Dick. My best interests would be to have a state pension of £50,000 per annum, free beer and a ban on idiots posting on the internet. It is not the countries best interests.


19 Jun 21 - 06:27 AM (#4110662)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Oh I don't know Dave, I'd be quite happy for you to have that pension and the free beer and the last bit would be brilliant!!


19 Jun 21 - 07:10 AM (#4110664)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

well the "country" is the electorate [including [those who choose not to vote , they have decided they do not care who represents them]


19 Jun 21 - 10:11 AM (#4110675)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

If there is no candidate standing in my constituency that I would wish to vote for, that does not mean that I have decided that I don't care who represents me.


19 Jun 21 - 11:39 AM (#4110682)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Then you need to vote for the candidate who is most likely to defeat the candidate youe want least.


19 Jun 21 - 12:46 PM (#4110686)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

What a depressing solution to a depressing problem.


19 Jun 21 - 02:48 PM (#4110692)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

it is partly a fault of first past the post, the two social dmocratic parties, liberal[pale pale pink] and labour[ pale pink] have their vote split, divide and rule


20 Jun 21 - 05:04 AM (#4110751)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

well the "country" is the electorate

It isn't just the electorate though. It is the companies that employ and pay people. It is the transport infrastructure. It is those who maintain national parks and other treasures. All those and many more have to have their best interests protected too.


20 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM (#4110752)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I prefer preferential vote systems as it maintains constituencies voting for their representative,,, and also addresses progressive votes being split so that constituents can reject an incumbent without having to vote tactically and a candidate winning a seat in spite of two thirds of voters being against them.


20 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM (#4110754)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Letter to Starmer from a member of the working class.


20 Jun 21 - 05:33 AM (#4110755)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The whole debate on voting systems is complex, and it is worth getting your head round Arrow's Impossibility Theorem. However, it is also important to understand this theorem does not say FPTP is better.

Over-simplifying, the theorem says all voting systems have flaws. But, recognising where and how and how severely they go wrong, you can choose a system ;with open eyes' to its limitations.

I head a great lecture by John Curtice a month or two back explaining how FPTP has failed to achieve what its supporters claim with any reliability for decades now. Hid did not recommend any specific voting system, but he did say many of the claimed benefits of FPTP are spurious.


20 Jun 21 - 08:11 AM (#4110763)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i agree that there are advsntages and disadvantages to the different PR systems , but it is indisputable that with two social democratic opposition parties the liberals and the present labour party ,the opposition is split . tactical voting in chesham defeated the conservatives.
i have never voted liberal in my life but they are different from the conservatives in that they are pro european, and they are the party that consistently suffers with first past the post election system


20 Jun 21 - 11:23 AM (#4110764)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Hmmmmmmmmmm..

John Bercow.. next Labour leader and prime minister...???

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.............


20 Jun 21 - 11:51 AM (#4110766)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Btw..

I've suggested it before,
and I'm becoming increasingly convinced that a two party system might be more effective..

However you name it, or label each opposing party,
voters would need to be honest with themselves and pick a side.

Individuals stubbornly posturing as centrists,
would need to do some serious heart searching thinking;
and decide which side they actually lean towards by the narrowest margin...

It wouldn't be a perfect solution, obviously..

(Single issue obsessed militant activists would still be a distracting divisive pain in the arse..)

But it might be better than our present charade of democracy...???


20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM (#4110770)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The main problem with a two party system is they can put all sorts of stuff in their manifestos and claim that is what people demanded. We had a nice example just recently in this threat when Gina Millar was given as an example of how individuals could hold governments into account, while apparently unaware the manifesto for the winning party in 2019 included a commitment to 'rebalance' rights to make it possible to stop any such 'politics by other means'. (Admittedly, they did add a whole pile of fluff and chaff disguising how to achieve that, but they did make that a clear objective.)

Sometimes, I think I am the only one that reads manifestos ...

Anyway, having a two party system would amplify that: how do you say that you do not want the objectionable stuff in the manifesto? Especially if the other side had different but equally objectionable stuff?

My personal preference is for a large number of parties, and I would have liked to see a pro-Brexit Tory and a pro-EU Tory on the ballots in each constituency (ditto for Labour) so that we elected a pro-Brexit or anti-Brexit House without needing a referendum at all.


20 Jun 21 - 12:11 PM (#4110771)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Opps! Thread, not threat!


20 Jun 21 - 12:23 PM (#4110773)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Jonathan Freedland in yesterdays Guardian

"Plot it on a graph and the change stares right back at you. Fifty years ago, parties of the left fared best among those with the least education and the lowest income, while the right flourished among those with the most of both. These days, the right still does well among the affluent, but on education the two camps have swapped places: these days, and far too crudely put, if you’re a graduate you vote left; if you’re not, you don’t."

And
Thursday’s byelection result will prompt a lot of excited talk of what educated, progressive voters might do if they join together. But it will never be enough. The harder truth is that those who want change will have to speak to voters about the things they, the voters, care about, and in a way that makes sense to them. It will require discipline and coherence, even from those who think they’re doing noble work “widening the debate” or “raising awareness”, when in fact they’re just making progressives look weird. There is no short cut – via Chesham and Amersham or anywhere else."


Jonathan Freedland


21 Jun 21 - 10:58 AM (#4110894)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

How is Brexit going?

Polls are always suspect, and YouGov more than most, but even so it is interesting.


21 Jun 21 - 02:25 PM (#4110912)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Yes, they clearly use the headlines which will reflect their own views. "Just 25% of the British public think Brexit is going well".
Although that is clearly less than the alternate headline "Just 38% think Brexit is going badly".

By ignoring all those who say either "not going well nor badly" or "Don't know" any other option is never going to manage to make a big headway.

It's surprising the correlation between Conservative/Leave figures and Labour/Remain figures on the basis that this wasn't ever supposed to be a party political decision.


22 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM (#4110974)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

its called propoganda or sometimes news


22 Jun 21 - 05:31 AM (#4110979)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The commentary around the table of results (which is a bit buried in the middle) is propaganda, I would say. So I tend to focus on the table and largely ignore the surrounding text.

One of the reasons I said YouGov is unreliable is that a major bias in any survey is determining who you ask. Most YouGov surveys are based on filling in online questionnaires, so you suffer from all the 'self-selection' problems.

As we are coming up to the five year anniversary of the vote, ask "how's it going?" is quite a reasonable thing to ask.

I agree with Nigel that it is interesting that there is a string difference in the opinion of Conservative and Labour Leave voters. There are probably dozens of factors in play. One is that with the Conservatives in power, it is much harder for Conservative voters to say "this is going badly" whereas there is quite an incentive for Labour voters to say 'this is not the Brexit I voted for.'

A second one is that it is very likely that Labour Leave voters and Conservative Leave voters agreed that the UK should leave the EU, but they genuinely had different ideas about what should happened next. I suspect, but do not know of course, that many of the Labour Leaves felt it was the best way of protecting UK jobs (i.e. essentially protectionist), whereas many Conservatives were much more 'free market' inclined, and so opposed to protectionism.


22 Jun 21 - 05:32 AM (#4110980)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

string => striking


22 Jun 21 - 06:24 AM (#4110985)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I tend to look much more at the drivers for leave - both from the tory and labour point of view. In the case of Labour, those who were driving it saw it as a step towards their revolutionary socialist ideals, while the conservative side was much more about realising capitalism from social responsibility. Again this is about the drivers, not the voters.


22 Jun 21 - 06:43 AM (#4110988)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

The other problem with the poll is that it does not separate dogma from informed opinion. For the survey to have any real value the answer needs to be qualified and the way to pick up the people in the middle would be a further question: -   Please give your reasons why you believe Brexit is NOT going well or badly. An example might be that UK has control of its fishing waters (well) versus UK has lost most of its market for selling fishing catches (badly).


22 Jun 21 - 09:05 AM (#4110996)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

NYC is trying out Rank Based voting in the primary for the Mayor election. https://www1.nyc.gov/site/civicengagement/voting/ranked-choice-voting.page


22 Jun 21 - 10:08 AM (#4111001)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Just why is that posted on a Brexit & other UK politics thread?


22 Jun 21 - 10:56 AM (#4111006)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Try it you might like it.


22 Jun 21 - 02:33 PM (#4111024)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Donny - quick, a UFO has landed in the other thread.
The visitors were looking for you,
with an important message only you can comprehend.
They were starting to look a bit impatient like they've been stood up.
Quick before you miss them...!!!

Now back to British political matters...


22 Jun 21 - 04:29 PM (#4111034)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

he is talking about pr, it is being introduced in usa?


22 Jun 21 - 05:17 PM (#4111040)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Yes Dick he is. But that has no place ,even if it were relevant, on the one thread we're allowed about UK politics.


23 Jun 21 - 12:09 PM (#4111124)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The return of roaming charges?

It will be interesting to see if O2 backs down, or the other providers follow them in restoring charges.

I remember being assured in posts to earlier versions of this thread that this was another unfounded 'Project Fear'-style claim.


27 Jun 21 - 01:43 PM (#4111606)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

What do we think of Hat Mancock then?

(For the pedantic and those who cannot figure these things out, I am referring to the health secretary 's resignation)


27 Jun 21 - 02:07 PM (#4111610)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I think Matt Hancock should have been sacked, although I can cope with his resignation. Nothing to do with the affair, I should add, but for the breach of rules (And I would like these other offences taken into account, m'lud)

I am not at all convinced Javid will be a good health minister, but the choices available were somewhat limited.

The first serious thing to judge him on is who he appoints as head of NHS England. Serial-disaster Dido would be a really bad sign.


27 Jun 21 - 02:14 PM (#4111611)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

I can't help suspecting that rather than Hancock having now 'left' his wife, she may have kicked him out.


27 Jun 21 - 02:42 PM (#4111619)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

Do we know more about the who and how of camera placement in Hancock's work environment. As in, has this been happening right along and could it be a factor in various decisions in officialdom?


27 Jun 21 - 03:05 PM (#4111626)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Just as I suspected, hancock' s brains are in his pant's!!!!!


27 Jun 21 - 03:54 PM (#4111631)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Johnson could not have sacked Hancock for having an extramarital affair ............. how could he sack someone for doing exactly the same as himself on numerous occasions.


27 Jun 21 - 05:23 PM (#4111640)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

He may not have been sacked (for the aforementioned reasons), but I’d bet a pound to a pinch of snuff that he was ‘resigned’.


27 Jun 21 - 05:55 PM (#4111644)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

One of the things I thought interesting is that while Hancock said those who make the rules must abide by them, there is not a thing in Johnson's reply to say he agrees. In fact, though he accepts the resignation there is nothing in his response to suggest he thought it right to resign.


27 Jun 21 - 05:57 PM (#4111645)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Of course he was!!


27 Jun 21 - 06:01 PM (#4111646)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Why does BBC persist in calling it "Kissing",
when it was a full on teenage disco snog and arse grope.. at their age...???

Tory party now deep in debate on best ways to monetise the full sex tape...£££


27 Jun 21 - 06:49 PM (#4111651)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

And now Dom Cummings is claiming that 'twas Carrie who got the "bog-standard" Sadge appointed. Heheh...

I'll swear that I read somewhere that the camera was embedded in the room's smoke alarm...


28 Jun 21 - 05:17 AM (#4111686)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

why dont the whole cabinet resign


28 Jun 21 - 12:03 PM (#4111714)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - the same reason fleas, lice, and ticks
don't voluntarily leave their warm-blooded host victims...


28 Jun 21 - 03:21 PM (#4111729)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

WWC(hurchill)?


28 Jun 21 - 03:22 PM (#4111730)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

That was supposed to be:

WWC(hurchill)D?

but I butterfingered it (Yes, I made 'butterfinger' a verb. I went there).


29 Jun 21 - 03:00 AM (#4111772)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Chart for UK cases on 29 June 2021

Javid's speeches yesterday put him firmly on the side of dates rather than data. He committed very strongly to removing as many restrictions as possible on 19th July and living with the consequences.

Such bravado could very easily cause him a huge headache. Even though the numbers are lower than before, it would be foolish to think the number of hospitalisations is independent of the number of cases, and every case occupies a hospital bed for a comparatively long time (many operations, such as my wife's knee replacement earlier this week) occupy beds for two or three days. Covid-19 hospitalisation is longer. The chart I took a snapshot of and linked to above shows the UK is not doing well controlling the delta variant, and relaxing in a few weeks if we have not got this under control looks very unwise from a data viewpoint.

He is also gambling that a new variant will not emerge that has worse statistics than delta.

SO he could very easily find himself in the nearish future - say before the end of the year - having to decide whether to eat humble and pie and actually reverse the irreversible, or to be held personally accountable for any deaths etc arising from this hypothetical variant.

In essence, he has already gambled his future that such a variant will not appear. JH, and the rest of us, may be lucky.


29 Jun 21 - 03:01 AM (#4111773)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Before I am picked up on it, when I said "every case occupies a hospital bed", I meant of course "every hospitalisation occupies a bed"


29 Jun 21 - 03:11 AM (#4111776)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

javid has outside interests which include private medicine.
this is a little like giving a job to a thief to guard the crown jewels

Sajid Javid is the new Secretary of State for Health and Social Care.

Alongside being an MP, last year Javid was hired as a paid senior advisor to the US bank JP Morgan.

JP Morgan is a major player in private healthcare.

The NHS isn't safe in the Conservatives' hands.


29 Jun 21 - 03:38 AM (#4111779)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I may have said this before here, as I have certainly said it in a few places, but I will repeat myself if I have. No matter.

Talk of selling off the NHS is unwise. I do not think the Conservatives would do anything so crude. But they don't have to. All they have to do is ensure that for those who can afford it private medicine is the preferred route. There are all sorts of ways this can happen: allow the waiting lists to grow and grow. Restrict the range of operations on the NHS (eg varicose veins are no longer available on the NHS. I think they dropped around 35 such things not long ago.) Restrict the criteria for access ("BMI over 35? Sorry, no treatment until you get it down. Obesity is a health risk and we need to atop it")

All of those are happening at the moment (and were all pre-covid, by the way.)


Next, paint those who take out private healthcare as patriots, for reducing the waiting lists for the NHS. Such selfless people.

Next, think about tax relief for individuals with private healthcare. After all, if they are not using the NHS, it is fair they don't pay as much for it, isn't it?

They do not stress that reduces the NHS funds, so makes things like waiting lists worse, but it does. Which of course makes the private more appealing, and more go private, leading to whittling down the NHS further.

And yet, they could still boast that the NHS exists and is free at the point of use. So it has not been "sold."

If you look at the reports from private healthcare companies for the year before covid struck, they reported a boom in the self-pay sector. I.e. those without health insurance but paying for a private operation directly.


29 Jun 21 - 04:19 AM (#4111782)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I suppose I should reveal my hand after that.

My wife has osteoarthritis. She has had both hips and both knees replaced. One operation was on the NHS, three we paid for privately, primarily because of the length of the waiting lists.

When Johnson became Prime Minister, I took out private health insurance for myself for the first time in my life, because my trust in the government is that low. Even in Thatcher's time, I did not consider private health insurance.

Naturally, the cost of private health care for my wife is totally prohibitive so she is not covered.


29 Jun 21 - 05:13 AM (#4111786)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

About two years ago I had a large sebaceous cyst on my shoulder that was constantly prone to bursting (and coming back). I was flabbergasted to be told by my GP that he couldn't deal with it under the NHS. He gave me the number of a private clinic. I rang them. They offered me a half-hour appointment (which included "counselling") with no guarantee of success. £450.

I sorted it myself.


29 Jun 21 - 05:22 AM (#4111787)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Ear syringing is no longer available on the NHS either. Our local optitions do it for £100 or Specsavers do it for £55.


29 Jun 21 - 05:25 AM (#4111788)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Opticians is the more common spelling of course...


29 Jun 21 - 05:34 AM (#4111789)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

(Make your own eyesight joke now...)

Yes, I had to have my ears syringed recently for that sort of price. While there the nurse told me of a patient whose was problem is so severe he needs to come in every six months. At around £100 a time, that is a lot of cash to find.


29 Jun 21 - 12:38 PM (#4111828)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

It isn't appropriate to give dietary advice to someone you do not know anything about. You may, for instance, advise someone to eat more nuts, not knowing they have an allergy. Giving advice in ignorance of all the facts is foolish. Relating what works for you is a different matter.


Yards and yards of posts with medical bickering have been removed. The party who complained to this mudelf about a personal insult is the one who set it off, so there isn't a lot of sympathy here. Don't Feed the Trolls and/or Don't Be a Troll. ---mudelf


29 Jun 21 - 05:30 PM (#4111851)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Now to return to Brexit and UK politics!

The Independent is reporting:
The EU will reportedly force the UK to agree to “conditions” as both sides edge towards a truce averting a so-called “sausage war” with a temporary extension to defer a ban on shipments of chilled meat.

An eleventh-hour agreement will come just hours ahead of the expiration of the grace period on 1 July, which would have prevented shipments of the products from Great Britain to Northern Ireland.

===
I thought something like this would happen, but I did expect a str I never set of conditions, along the lines of demonstrable progress from the UK that it was implementing what it agreed. In these early reports, that does not seem to be the case. But we should see tomorrow, perhaps.


29 Jun 21 - 05:31 PM (#4111852)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Autocorrections again!

I expected a stronger set of conditions ...


29 Jun 21 - 09:59 PM (#4111863)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I ordered a powered speaker off Amazon.
Opened the box, and it's a bloody 2 pin Euro plug..

Don't they know there's a brexit going on...!!!???

Millions of patriotic born and bred British heroes
voted with a historic decisive victory over traiter to the nation remoaners,
to keep out this kind of foreign threat to our sovereignty...

Btw.. My sound advice is never eat continental food.
It will sap your British vitality, make you sterile,
and your skin go an unhealthy olive colour,
and in worse cases you'll turn transexual..

That is a fact confirmed by British facebook experts.

British 3 pin plugs and food first, and forever...

We showed the Germans once again on the hallowed battle field of Wembley.
Eleven true English men raised eating a pure healthy diet of holy Albion pies and mash
will never be defeated...!!!


30 Jun 21 - 02:16 AM (#4111867)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

LOL, pfr!!


30 Jun 21 - 03:00 AM (#4111868)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Come off it pfr.
We all know that it was Boris what won it.


30 Jun 21 - 04:40 AM (#4111875)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

I am not interested enough to spend an hour and a half watching football, but my son has just told me that during the match Wills and Kate were shown jumping up and down with delight and waving their arms in the air.
This morning he watched a number of news broadcasts, all of which showed the royal couple clapping demurely, in a calm and dignified manner.
He believes that the images are being controlled, either by the media or by the palace itself.


30 Jun 21 - 06:53 AM (#4111884)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

suggests going to a PROFESIONAL , yes , but professional GPs are overworked and under pressure

So you think we would get better advice off a folk singer?

Dave the gnome used to be considerably overweight, but i believe since he took up cycling he has lost weight

No, no, no. Once again you are not in possesion of the full facts. I always cycled, hiked and swam even when I was obese. I have lost over 4 stone with WW. Still about 20lb to go but that will go this year.

did he need professional advice?

YES I MOST CERTAINLY DID, AND LOTS OF IT!

Now, can we get back to UK politics please?


30 Jun 21 - 08:11 AM (#4111887)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm clearing out my mum's house now that she's in a care home.

Bookcases are full of reader's digest and similar populist medical textbooks.
Plus thick encyclopaedias of medications..

All this confirms my suspicions such a superficial grasp of this kind of knowledge
fueled and exacerbated my sister's mental health problems..

She started as a fairly normal teenager training for st John's ambulance certificates..

But problems started to become apparent in her later teens.

She could very expertly pull the wool over the eyes of examining doctors and specialists,
by feigning the correct symptoms they needed to observe for diagnosis.

She became a very crafty hypochondriac,
suffering all kinds of rare and trendy conditions.

This provided her status and power in online self-help and therapy groups.

At worse I believe she developed Munchausen syndrome.
All her pets suffered rare and exotic illnesses needing very expensive veterinary treatment, which he could document in log books and online diaries.

Again providing her with elite expert status in online forums for vulnerable health obsessives.

I'm quite certain she also controlled and abused my mother's life with emergency call outs to ambulances,
for what my sister diagnosed as strokes while my mother was asleep.
My sister being the only witness, giving medical teams articulate descriptions of the textbook symptoms..

There's far more to this story than I divulge now..

For these reasons I am also very wary of self-appointed amateur medical specialists...

No back to British politics and taking the piss out of brexiteers...


30 Jun 21 - 08:14 AM (#4111888)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

now back...


30 Jun 21 - 08:26 AM (#4111891)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

That’s a very sad story, pfr. Having had to deal, for many years, with a close relative who suffered paranoid schizophrenia, and another with very serious addiction, I feel for you and your family.


30 Jun 21 - 09:29 AM (#4111895)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

yes i am wary of self appointed amateur medical specialists too. which was why i said
i would advise everyone see a professional conventional doctor or a professional herbal doctor. however professionals include alternative medicine acu puncture etc.
incidentally about weight watchers quote
Weight Watchers isn't a medical organization and we can't give you medical advice. We strongly urge you to consult with your physician (or primary health-care provider) before starting any weight loss plan.    weight watchers are not professional medical specilists


30 Jun 21 - 09:49 AM (#4111897)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - that's fair enough..

Like Steve, my post is of perhaps more relevance towards some of our overseas pals.

It's maybe no coincidence that the online medical and therapy self help groups my sister dedicated herself to,
seemed to be mainly American..

Which is where she finally gravitated towards..
Travelling to the USA to stay with online friends I suspect involved in kind of cult-like activity..

.. And was found dead in mysterious circumstances in a desert region motel..

My mother's savings being drained in the process...

Local coroner and law enforcement quickly decided there were no problems, and closed the case..

I certainly felt unwelcome when trying to talk to them on the phone..


..nah.. can't have been just because I'm a Brit...???


30 Jun 21 - 09:51 AM (#4111898)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Government resists Tory MPs’ calls to scrap ‘fearful’ daily Covid figures

They should publish the figures, of course. But since Javid got the health post I have been anticipating they will be dropped - shortly after 19 July, perhaps.


30 Jun 21 - 12:54 PM (#4111909)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Yes, publish the data.
That does not mean they should hijack a large portion of the nightly news to try to persuade the public not to go about their normal lives.
Of course, there are other items which are still given priority over showing the figures, such as football ;)
But show the whole of the figures, and put them in proportion.
The current daily death rate from Covid seems to be climbing (from 0 on 1 June to 23 on 29th, but the gradient looks pretty good since March 15th) Here

But somehow, we rarely see the long term graphs except when figures are rising steeply, and the government want to "instil more caution", such a graph is Here for weekly deaths in England and Wales and seems to show that the death rate is following annual trends (at present).
In fact a note following the graph states that:
There were 9459 deaths registered in England and Wales for the week ending June 18, 2021, fewer than the average for this week between 2015 and 2019, and a signal of the improving Coronavirus situation in the UK.


30 Jun 21 - 02:45 PM (#4111918)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I agree that the number of deaths is sufficiently small that you cannot really determine a trend. As we stand a single death occurring an hour after midnight that might have occurred an hour before is enough to substantially alter the analysis.

And that is a good thing, because it emphasises how deaths are.

Hospitalizations are, unfortunately, a different story. While the figures remain low compared to earlier dates, there is a clear upward trend that looks as if it is accelerating. It needs close monitoring.


01 Jul 21 - 08:39 AM (#4111991)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

So, to get away from the dietary advice nonsense and its attendant trolling, and back to UK politics, here’s an interesting piece from today’s New European discussing the Populist nature of our current PM’s politics, and the fragility of his tenure in the job.

Fingers crossed that it’s correct in its conclusion, and Johnson’s monstrous rule comes to an end quickly, and soon…


01 Jul 21 - 11:37 AM (#4112006)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

My Czech partner has told be that the Czech government may be about to put in place a travel ban between the Czech Republic and UK. on the feeble basis that new cases in Cr are 158 per day, and approximately 28,000/day in UK.

This does not provide grounds for victimising ordinary people as the high numbers are due 100% to the actions of Boris Johnson.

The borders must be kept open, and is that results in the variant that originated in India spreading through the rest of Europe like wildfire, then t will be nobodies fault expect for Johnson and the s**m who voted tory.


02 Jul 21 - 03:43 AM (#4112072)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Labour's Kim Leadbeater has pulled off a surprise victory in the Batley and Spen by-election.

It had been expected that Tory challenger Ryan Stephenson would defeat Ms Leadbeater, sister of the murdered MP Jo Cox, after one of the most bitterly-fought parliamentary by-election campaigns in living memory.


02 Jul 21 - 03:51 AM (#4112073)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Sadly my daughter in law was beaten by 10 votes in her bid to become a Labour councillor in Stoke :-( With the hurdles thrown at her by both the Tories and the right wing of the local Labour party she still did remarkably well and I am proud of both her for going for it and of my son for the help and hard work.


02 Jul 21 - 04:23 AM (#4112074)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I strongly suspect that the result of the Batley & Spen By-Election is a message to the Labour Party’s membership to stop fighting each other, and to unite to fight the real enemy - the worst Populist Tory government any of us can remember - and do what they exist for - to represent the interests of ordinary people. We need a Labour Party than can get elected, not a bloody debating society for dogmatists to slug it out with one another over Labour ideology.

IMHO, of course, and YMMV.


02 Jul 21 - 05:05 AM (#4112077)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I feel the result of the Batley and Spen bye-election is very difficult to draw conclusions from. I have seen a lot of comment from the Conservative side pointing out a margin or around 300 votes in a historically Labour seat is a bad sign, but that, deliberately or otherwise, ignores Galloway and his stated objective of splitting the Labour vote. If he had not done that, the margin would be substantially greater.

On the other hand, Hancock's Half Hour and some support for Leadbeater because of Jo's murder will have played a part, and that only needs to have shifted the opinion of a few hundred to alter the result.

My feeling is that there will be a lot of special pleading on both sides and drawing any firm conclusion is risky.


02 Jul 21 - 05:10 AM (#4112078)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: G-Force

And the 'Rejoin EU' candidate got 75 votes!


02 Jul 21 - 05:37 AM (#4112080)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Tory vote percentage was DOWN compared with the previous election in 2019. NOT a good vote for the Tories whatever spin and lies they are spouting on the BBC breakfast programme.
The Labour vote was split by George Galloway.
If you add the Labour 35.2% plus the Galloway 21.9% (and don't include the Liberals) it totals up to 57% of the vote being Anti-Tory.


02 Jul 21 - 06:18 AM (#4112084)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

If you add the Labour 35.2% plus the Galloway 21.9% (and don't include the Liberals) it totals up to 57% of the vote being Anti-Tory.
It also totals up to 65% being anti the official Labour candidate.
We can all play the game of saying that every vote not in favour of one thing must be 'anti' them, but most people would vote for the candidate that they wish to succeed.


02 Jul 21 - 07:45 AM (#4112089)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

And 66%^ voted against the official tory candidate. Just be grateful that the people of Bately & Spen decided that they did not want tory garbage representing them.


02 Jul 21 - 08:02 AM (#4112090)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

i think that it is fair to say that there is - and always has been - a significant majority of the voters who are anti-tory - and particularly in their current rancid and inept incarnation. of course, their opponents have to stop splitting and arguing and do everything to rid ourselves of this curse on the uk and on civilized poltics. i play turn about with labour/green dependending on the level of hopefulness in the LP and will always vote anti-tory. uniting an anti-tory block should be possible if we allow and encourage dissenting voices - and scottish, welsh, NI progressives - to feel valued. we just have to be realistic and positive. however - on no account should we ever regard the libdems as anything but tories with a bit of a conscience. splitter? moi? nae chance!


02 Jul 21 - 08:32 AM (#4112093)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I've said it before and I'll say it again: those who "call for unity" in the party are invariably people who are essentially telling the left of the party to shut up and go away. Well that is not going to happen. The real splitters in the party are the Blair/Brown ex-acolytes and their descendants who forgot long ago that Labour was founded as a party for the working classes and trade unionists, not as the conscience-ridden arm of the establishment. Instead, they revelled in the "glory years" of Blair and ignored the inconvenient fact that the gap between rich and poor grew faster in that 13 years than it ever does under the Tories. Jeremy Corbyn was demonised because he hadn't forgotten what Labour is for. This morning we had Mandelson, that yesterday's man par excellence, on the radio spitting out bile about Corbynists. Even though we won the bloody by-election, he simply couldn't help himself, could he. And before the result was known, the chatter was about who would take over from Starmer once he'd been booted. Guess what: the best they came up with was Yvette Cooper. Yvette bloody Cooper. A disaster waiting to happen.


02 Jul 21 - 09:47 AM (#4112106)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

i agree. i would have thought there was a natural alliance with the labour right and 'wet' tories. and liberals. it's always been true that you are part of the problem or the solution - these cynical chancers have made their decision. (incidentally those on the tory 'left' have been very quiet since they were purged from the party. i wish the labour right would start supporting the membership or give up likewise)


02 Jul 21 - 11:01 AM (#4112114)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”I've said it before and I'll say it again: those who "call for unity" in the party are invariably people who are essentially telling the left of the party to shut up and go away”

Made-up Shit Steve - you keep trotting out this bollocks, but you’d do better to read what I actually write instead of indulging in this deceitful practice of putting your own perverted interpretation on my words and pretending I’ve said something I haven’t. That was Jim’s tactic - it stank when he lowered himself to it, and it stinks just as foully when you sink so low. The plain, unarguable fact is that nowhere, but nowhere, in my post have I said that ‘the left of the party should shut up and go away”.

Now knock off the made up shit, show a bit of honesty and, to quote your own words, get a bloody grip.


02 Jul 21 - 11:11 AM (#4112115)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I know what you are saying, John, but by your own token, Steve did not say that you were telling the left to shut up and go away! That aside, what is your recommendation for unity in the Labour party? Are you suggesting that we of the left wing give up our principles and indulge in a bit of right wing populism just to win elections? That is what it sounds like but maybe I am interpreting what you are saying incorrectly. Trouble is, if we do that, as per the article you linked the other day, populism is ultimately doomed to failure. Surely we would be best placed to win elections if we offered a real alternative to the Tories and the way the Labour party is currently being managed, that just is not going to happen :-(


02 Jul 21 - 11:36 AM (#4112116)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm mostly well towards the left..

.. and I'm sick of a lot of the self indulgent middle class student politics 'socialists'
who are taking over the party,

It's not an extension of the bloody NUS.. it's the Labour Party for supposedly mature grown ups...

Stick to the basic working class / Union principles,
and leave all the distracting divisive voter alienating single issue religion/sexuality/etc obsessions to the liberals...!!!


02 Jul 21 - 11:47 AM (#4112117)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Thank you, Dave!

I taught in east London through most of the 70s and was active in what was the most militant local NUT branch at the time (I've mentioned before that Blair Peach was my union buddy at the time). We militant types were constantly harassed by both the
London and the national NUT leadership to drop our calls for action and accept their brand of "unity." That meant letting things go, never calling for action, getting permission from the top, etc. and being castigated for stepping out of their drawn line. We stood on picket lines for school cleaners, hospital workers and the fire brigade at six in the morning in the freezing cold before going to work. We were organised sufficiently in schools to ensure that the headteachers never got a bit beyond themselves (and that often resulted in greater harmony). We were DOING STUFF, not sitting around passing pointless resolutions or moaning in staff rooms. Unfortunately, those are the things that the Union has been doing ever since Thatcher was allowed to emasculate us. And look where it's got us. Since the 70s, class sizes have got bigger, school buildings are crumbling away, we've had pay freeze after pay freeze and classroom teachers are drowning in bureaucracy instead of being allowed to channel their energies into their classes. That's unity for you. And by the way, some of those union bosses who were calling the shots had never set foot in a classroom. We should never let the powers that be persuade us that militant with a small m is a dirty word.


02 Jul 21 - 03:12 PM (#4112131)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

An apology would have been nice Steve, or at least an acknowledgement that I didn’t say what you were implying. The fact that you don’t have the cojones to admit your fault speaks volumes. But it surprises me not one jot.

So to be absolutely crystal clear, when I say, “…Party members to stop fighting each other and to unite to fight the real enemy…” I’m talking about the entire membership, irrespective of individual political views. I don’t give a damn about individual political leanings - Individuals’ precious principles are worthless when, not only can the Party not get itself elected to government, but also its lack of seats in the HoC make it incapable of mounting an effective opposition.

It’s not for me, a non-member, to tell the Labour Party how to solve its huge problems, but Politics is, and always has been, a world of compromise. Somewhere along the line, compromises have to be made - by all sides - in order to make the Party acceptable to the majority of voters. Failure to do that, a refusal to do whatever is necessary to defeat the worst Tory government any of us here can remember, is a dereliction of the Party’s duty to the people it was created to represent, and the intransigent ‘My Way or the Highway’ types would do better to take the highway.

I repeat - what’s needed is a Labour Party that can get itself elected, and can begin to repair the damage that the Tories have wrought on the weakest, most vulnerable. What we don’t need is a bunch of dogmatists beating each other up over ideology in a toothless debating society.

And Steve, your rambling, preachy accounts of what you claim to have done fifty years ago carry absolutely no weight in the here and now. It’s just political onanism, and it doesn’t do a thing to help the people who need a Labour government the most. Lose the cassock, and get a grip.

IMHO, YMMV of course.


02 Jul 21 - 03:42 PM (#4112133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I am outside the best part of a half bottle of good scotch so I shall not attempt rational argument but the thing that strikes me about your last post, John, is that it does not address my question about how you propose to unify the Labour party. Ok, you are not a member, but if you have such strong feelings about the Labour party getting elected, you must have some idea how it should go about it.


02 Jul 21 - 03:46 PM (#4112134)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

BTW, I am no longer a member of the Labour party. I resigned after Starmer's attack on Becky.

Yes, I do know her well enough to be so familiar.


02 Jul 21 - 04:31 PM (#4112138)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

The most important thing is to get a Labour Party Government of whatever hue.

I detested Blair and his ilk, and despise many of the policies they brought in .............. I left the Labour Party because of them.

However I would rather have the likes of THAT labour party than the callous cronism of the current parliament.


02 Jul 21 - 04:51 PM (#4112141)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Dave, I’m a voter who has supported various incarnations of the Labour Party (including Corbyn’s). I have little understanding of the mechanics by which the party organises itself or functions. But I’m aware that ‘something’ is broken in the party, and I am of the opinion that, until that something is fixed, Labour is, and will remain, unelectable.

If my car breaks down, I don’t have the knowledge or skill to fix it, but I sure as hell know it’s broken down. Likewise my central heating or my dish-washer. You don’t expect me to be able to tell the repair guy how to mend those things, so why do you expect me to be able to explain how to ‘mend’ a ‘broken’ political party? It’s not necessary to know how to mend it in order to realise it’s broken.

The membership are the ones who have to make an unelectable party electable, and kicking lumps off each other won’t help that process. And, after fifty years in higher management in industry, one thing I’m absolutely certain about is that intransigence is the enemy of good decision making, and that the best decisions are arrived at when everyone involved sets aside personal enmities, old feuds, and ‘un-breakable’ principles, and all agree to compromise, at least a little, in order to reach agreement.

The intransigence and belligerence of, for instance, Steve’s posts sadden me, because they strike me as typifying the bitterness in the party that is preventing it moving forward and making itself electable. Again, during my working life, I was made brutally aware time and time again that harking back to the past and trying to re-fight old battles is not just un-productive, it is destructive in the extreme.

Somewhere along the road, the fights have to stop, compromises have to be made, and the Labour Party has to unite against the Tories and Populism. Otherwise, it’s had its day, and the Tories will have theirs in the form of permanent government. Is that what you guys want?


02 Jul 21 - 04:53 PM (#4112142)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Again, I know what you mean,Raggy, but I'm not sure I agree. Is "Tory light" any better than Tory? I'll decide when I'm sober!


02 Jul 21 - 06:18 PM (#4112145)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

So marginalise the left (Kinnock couldn't manage it, John Smith probably wouldn't have, but Blair did it better), get yourself elected and be a Tory anyway. Not only did Blair massively enlarge the gap between rich and poor, not only did his thirteen years of light-touch regulation on the irresponsible financial institutions eventually give the Tories the go-ahead to visit years of miserable austerity on the poorest in the country, not only did his lies help to visit years of terrorism on this country, but he also heartily supported an idiotic administration in the US that shat on the Palestinians and advocated for a detestable Israeli regime. That's what happens when you'll do anything, anything at all, to get elected. That's why I'm extremely sceptical when the centre-right in Labour "calls for unity." I am still a member of the Labour Party, I want the party to return to its core values (not those that Starmer thought he was alluding to standing next to Kim today, but the real ones). If there's a lesson to be learned from our election defeats in 2010 and 2015, when the unity people in the party were calling the shots, it's that you do not convince the voters to support you if the only conviction you have is to be a Tory-camp-follower-but-with-a-conscience. That's why Keir Starmer will be trounced at the next election. By the way, my sister saw Jo Cox growing up, she's friends with her mum and she knows Kim. They are by no means Corbynites, that lot, but they are driven people who really do understand Labour's core values and who fight for their own communities. A bit more of that would be good. That's how you win. Today, Mandelson demonstrated precisely how we'll lose.

As for you, BWM, I don't respond to today's posts from you because I find them to be personal and offensive and completely off-beam. You might think that they are somehow heroic because they're from the hip, etc., but I'm afraid they don't do it for me. Maybe we will talk tomorrow.


02 Jul 21 - 06:29 PM (#4112146)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Go easy on that whisky now, Dave. I have four bottles of superb single malts which I got for my 70th a couple of weeks ago. I find at my age that it's Nero d'Avola OR whisky, not "and." I've been known to have a nightcap of malt after the vino and have found that this is not necessarily a wise move. Mrs Steve is fairly merciless when it comes to not permitting lie-ins...


03 Jul 21 - 03:20 AM (#4112170)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Sorry John but that just does not wash. You know it is broken, you do not know how to fix it, yet you do know that it needs unity. Yes, it does need compromise to achieve agreement in any situation. Compromise is a two sided thing. Why then does it seem to be just the left wing that are targeted as being the ones who are rocking the boat? This is not having a go at you or anything personal. I have noticed that in general it is always left wing intransigence or the loony left who are at fault. We have to ask ourselves why this is and the most likely answer is that the people pulling the strings want to demonise the left to ensure that government stays firmly behind their interests rather than for the good of the majority.

In answer to your question, Raggy, yes any Labour government must be better than this shower of shysters but, again, I am not convinced that moving further right will be of any benefit in the long term.


03 Jul 21 - 03:34 AM (#4112171)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Picking up on something PFR said. Maybe the Labour party is not currently fit for purpose in that it no longer represents the very people it is supposed to help. Maybe if it stopped pandering to higher management, computer professionals and well to do retirees, and started representing the interests of the majority of the workforce it would win their vote. Or is wanting a party that helps the poorest rather than the well off just wishful thinking?


03 Jul 21 - 05:44 AM (#4112177)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Jeremy Corbyn, unexpectedly, was elected leader. Tom Watson became his deputy. Tom Watson never failed to brief against Corbyn at every opportunity, though he remained his deputy. Other members of the Miliband right-wing faction, lots of them, when Incited, refused to serve in Corbyn's shadow cabinet, and they also briefed against him, frequently. A cabal of disaffected Israel sympathisers ran a prolonged and concerted campaign to paint Corbyn as an antisemite, a massive lie perpetuated by some extremely dishonest LABOUR PARTY members who, with the help the Daily Mail, managed to hand a massive majority in the 2019 election to the Tories on a plate (OK, we would probably have lost anyway, but at least it wouldn't have been the drubbing it turned out to be). When Starmer became leader, one of the first things that happened was that Corbyn was expelled on extremely dubious grounds. Starmer also sacked Becky Long-Bailey on the slightest of pretexts for doing next to nothing wrong.

OK then. Shall we talk about "compromise" again?


03 Jul 21 - 05:47 AM (#4112178)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"Incited" was supposed to be "invited".


03 Jul 21 - 10:57 AM (#4112191)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I have just been listening to something that sounds completely unconnected but I will draw the link at the end. In the meantime, just listen to the tale.

A nearby church is in the area of Pear Tree, now part of Southampton, but on the other side of the River Itchen. It was built in around 1618 and consecrated in 1620, in order to avoid having to cross the river the whole time. While some 20 smaller chapels were consecrated after the Reformation this was the first full church to do so, and there was no process to do it, so it had to be prepared specially. It had to satisfy the high Anglican wing who wanted fonts and other such fittings, and the near-puritan wing who thought all of that sort of thing idolatrous. It had to address the abstract religious aspects and the legal and day-to-day stuff like who legally owned the land and who tithes were paid to, for example.

The animosity between those two wings of Anglicanism was huge; it was in living memory how people who went too far in one direction could find themselves killed as a consequence. The lucky ones found themselves merely heavily fined, imprisoned or shunned. Many on each side took a 'no comprise is possible' stance and felt their personal salvation depended on them doing so. No stakes could be higher.

Yet it was possible to construct a service that satisfied both wings. The way it was done was essentially by acknowledging each side's view and for example, showing those of the 'biblical fundamentalist' tendency that everything that was done had a chapter-and-verse backing. Similarly, it said to those who wanted a feature "you can have it if you can show biblical backing."

Do not imagine for one moment the rows between the Corbyn wing and the Blair wing (for the sake of names) are more than a pale shadow of the animosity between these two religious interpretations. The solution was not to 'find a compromise in the middle'. It was for each to recognise a legitimacy in the other. Stop treating the situation as a battle with an enemy. Both sides needed to do that for Pear Tree, and I think the same applies to Labour. Fail, and Labour fails completely whichever point of view you hold. Succeed, and both sides can get much of what they want by persuading the other wing, not by attempting to browbeat them into submission.

Maybe Labour is too divided to do that. I hope not.

Here endeth the sermon.


03 Jul 21 - 11:18 AM (#4112195)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks Dave - A good sermon it was too. I think the pivotal point is

Both sides needed to do that for Pear Tree, and I think the same applies to Labour.

Yes, both 'sides' need to show willing and there has been precious little of that from either recently. Of course I could add that the Blair wing has had its own way a lot more than the Corbyn one but I would say that wouldn't I! :-)


03 Jul 21 - 03:11 PM (#4112215)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

in tony benn's diaries he quotes eric heffer as saying that 'a bird needs 2 wings to fly' - if labour cannot compromise with its members and accomodate green, snp etc priorities then the left or progressive movement is fucked. the current government demands such a response from us. parties do not really matter - good faith, good ideas and a shared sense of care for the communities and the environment is overwhelmingly the most important thing. we are all just pointlessly squabbling - as ever. while the world is literally burning


03 Jul 21 - 05:15 PM (#4112225)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Using the same imagery if one wing dominates the other, the bird will fly round in ever decreasing circles until it disappears up its own arsehole!


04 Jul 21 - 04:42 AM (#4112250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I have read several times that the Labour rules prevent co-operation with other parties; it was claimed they cannot formally support a Parliamentary motion brought by another party, for example.

If this is a Labour rule, that does not mean it cannot be changed: there were the famous 'clause 4' debates, for example. But having had a quick scan of the rulebook, I cannot see such a rule in the first place. The nearest seems to be Chapter 13, clause X, but chapter 13 is all about local government, not the party as a whole.

Can anyone direct me to where the Labour rulebook prevents a formal co-operation with other parties?


04 Jul 21 - 07:08 AM (#4112262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I couldn't find anything during a half-hour peruse through the rule book, but, actually, I could never approve of, say, Labour declining to field a candidate in my constituency (historically a battleground between LibDems and Tories with Labour always a distant third). I want it to be up to me whether I vote tactically or not. I did just that in 2010 in order to keep the Tory out ("Don't let the Tories win here" was the campaign slogan) which worked, but then the "progressive" LibDems sold their soul to the devil and propped up a party that went on to subject the poorest in the country to years of misery. As far as I know, MPs can be whipped or not to support a motion from another party, but I'm not up for formal deals to cooperate. We have a party system in which the parties each have their own set of values. As far as I'm concerned, there's only one other significant "progressive" party and that's the SNP, but their values and aspirations are very different to Labour's in many regards. And, not least, the SNP hegemony in Scotland is one of the main factors keeping Labour out of power. Which, of course, is Labour's problem.


04 Jul 21 - 07:54 AM (#4112266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

sadly, the labour party are reduced to a small, bitter rump in scotland who (like the tories) have nothing positive to offer - just constant sniping at snp. surely, there are many snp policies (free student fees, no trident, free elderly care, prescriptions etc) that labour should be happy to support - and adopt south of the border. by co-operating in this way - and putting clear distance between them and the tories i'm sure their appeal could improve in scotland and elsewhere. the labour leadership don't seem able to confidently promote progressive policies - they could let others - nicola sturgeon, caroline lucas, regional leaders etc - do some of the work - and offer a broad left (!) platform that even some of us old left could lend support to in these extreme times.


04 Jul 21 - 08:33 AM (#4112268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Unfortunately, I don't see how, on a practical level, that would produce a majority "progressive" government that will promise to act in concert.


04 Jul 21 - 11:28 AM (#4112283)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve:
And, not least, the SNP hegemony in Scotland is one of the main factors keeping Labour out of power. Which, of course, is Labour's problem.
Surely that should also keep the Conservatives out of power. It is easy enough to blame Scotland. The Labour party are not getting enough seats anywhere!


04 Jul 21 - 11:45 AM (#4112284)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

It may be that lifelong labour voters need to consider a future without the Labour party...???

How about we all join the conservative party in our millions..


Then f*** the tories up from within...???

It definitely seems to have worked for them..
When Tory MPs fled like rats from a sinking ship to join and shape Blair's Labour new party..

Or when (allegedly) an organised mass of tory and even further right wingers purchased cheap labour membership in order to tactically vote Corbyn in as leader...


04 Jul 21 - 12:26 PM (#4112293)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

an inspired idea, pfr. they have seamlessly absorbed ukip types and in many cases (see workington) elected thugs and eejits to parliament. they have kicked out any brains and tories have no time for boring meetings and adhering to points of order, whereas we have many years of practice - a couple of years of pretending, undercover resistance, backhanders and rotten borough council seats and we would easily take the power. might take a bit of explaining to the family mind.....


04 Jul 21 - 02:23 PM (#4112300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

We're going to ranked choice voting in Alaska. That makes tactical (strategic?) voting normative.


04 Jul 21 - 02:46 PM (#4112302)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Er, I wasn't blaming Scotland, Nigel, and I tried to make that clear. But Labour once held dozens of seats in Scotland which are now well beyond its reach. That makes it incredibly difficult for Labour to get an overall majority. That's life, and no blaming of voters is necessary.


05 Jul 21 - 12:38 AM (#4112344)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I am a bit concerned with the accounts of the new NHS bill coming before Parliament. We will have to see the detail, but it seems to include a lot of powers for the minister to override local health decisions, which I find problematical.

A quick recap: go back far enough and the NHS was wholly under the responsibility of the Department of Health. This made the minister ultimately responsible for the decisions taken. This was then re-organised into "arm's length" bodies, which had strengths and weaknesses. The minister was less accountable, but it opened the way for more specialist and dedicated management.

It appears the new proposal combines the worst of those features. The accountability remains with the arm's length groups but the new powers will allow a minister to swoop in, override a decision about contracts, or opening and closing hospitals and so on, then fly out again.

I think we can take it as read the minister is unlikely to demand the closure of a hospital against the local advice. Why would they court such flak?   On the other hand, if a local authority has a budget problem and decides the only choices are to cut services everywhere or close a local hospital, there will – as always – be a local protest and the minister can turn up, declare the hospital stays, collect all the popularity and disappear again, forcing the local health bodies to cut the services as their only other way of balancing the books.

It looks as if the minister can act with no knowledge of the local circumstances, then leave without suffering any of the consequences, leaving others to sort any mess arising.

Again, the minister can force through contracts, overriding local decisions. If that is not another PPE jobs-for-chums scandal in the making, I don’t know what is.

I also mentioned that the current structure was introduced to enable management by highly skilled and dedicated people as one of its strengths. Dido Harding? She still seems to be in the running.

All in all, the proposals as reported so far sound potentially quite damaging for the NHS.   But we will see shortly.


05 Jul 21 - 02:41 AM (#4112348)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

In reality the domination of the SNP in Scotland is only a really serious disadvantage to Labour at Westminster as long as Labour declines to contemplate working even informally with other parties and sticks to the flawed idea that you must have a majority in parliament. The SNP members sent to Westminster are in essence an anti-Tory block of votes. The SNP have said on various occasions that they would vote with Labour on a case by case basis - and in most instances they would be very unlikely to vote with the Tory opposition against Labour.


05 Jul 21 - 02:48 AM (#4112349)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Plus of course the maths means if the majority of Scottish MPs are not Labour then it is harder to get a majority. That is obvious. However the demographics are that for the Scottish MPs to actually make any difference numerically the result needs to be incredibly tight in England itself. All the Blair and Brown gvts still had a majority of seats even if you disregard the Scottish MPs.


05 Jul 21 - 04:33 AM (#4112354)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

That's true, but anyone who is labouring under the illusion that Labour could ever again (at least in my lifetime) get a majority double the current Tory one (which is what Blair did twice), which would need bags of Scottish seats (as likely as a duff bottle of Hirondelle), is whistling in the dark. The landscape has changed irrevocably. I'm all for informal case-by-case alliances, but the plain fact is that anything formal can only work if no party has an overall majority, and, as I said, I want it to be my choice to vote tactically or not. If Labour declines to put up a candidate in North Cornwall in an attempt to get a LibDem elected, I would feel disenfranchised and I would leave the party. I see the LibDems as a despicable bunch of unprincipled, lightweight opportunists. And last time that smaller party threw their hat in the ring with the Tories they were punished almost to extinction in the next election. For me that was the only highlight of the 2015 election. And let's not forget what happened to the SDP. No-vision chancers who helped to keep Thatcher in power. One day Labour will win again. The party was a basket case in the mid-80s and twelve years later got in with a massive majority. Who'd have thought it (or is that me whistling in the dark...). We play to win and we must do it on our own. In m'humble, of course.


05 Jul 21 - 05:07 AM (#4112357)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

So kind of the SDP to keep the Conservatives in power. But,
Before the SDP was created the Conservatives were in government with a majority of 43.
After the SDP dissolved in 1988 the Conservatives won a general election in 1992 with a majority of 21.

Margaret Thatcher may have had the benefit of a larger majority because of Labour voters turning to the SDP, but that doesn't seem to have been necessary to keep power.


05 Jul 21 - 06:21 AM (#4112363)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

They didn't exactly help. A big part of their message was very much anti-Labour left. All that nonsensical guff recently about Shirley Williams being a woman of honour and integrity made me squirm.


05 Jul 21 - 06:54 AM (#4112364)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

yes i used to reckon that shirley w was a decent politician but then came the coalition's disastrous health reforms. as i recall, as a 'conscience' politician she took a day or 2 decide but then, inevitably for a liberal, came down on the tory side of the debate. final decider for me of whether to ever trust any of them again.


05 Jul 21 - 07:04 AM (#4112366)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

it's always been politically useful to the tories to have a tory-lite friendly group of stooges who appear to give a centrist balance. along with the labour right, all major political voices have united to attempt to isolate progressive ideas and isolate the left.


05 Jul 21 - 09:02 AM (#4112374)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

An extract from the article What Labour's Batley and Spen Victory means for the Party's left (Tom Blackburn in the Guardian):

Those hoping that this byelection result will pour oil on troubled waters and bring an end to Labour’s factional infighting are likely to be sorely disappointed, however. On the contrary, the party’s right wing will most likely take the win in Batley and Spen as a green light to step up its factional war on the left. Sources close to Starmer have already started issuing thinly veiled threats of vengeance against Rayner, as well.

Just last week, some of Starmer’s allies were suggesting he should make do with being another Neil Kinnock; in other words, give up on any hopes he might have had of becoming prime minister and instead settle scores with the Labour left on their behalf. In particular, this means ensuring that the left is never again in a position to win the party leadership, specifically by changing the rules for future leadership elections.

There will therefore be pressure on Starmer to capitalise on the win in Batley and Spen by further marginalising the Labour left, deterring future leadership challenges from this quarter and possibly clearing the way for a shift in policy direction. Starmer won the Labour leadership promising to bring about unity and a decisive end to its years of exhausting internecine strife, precisely what party members wanted to hear. But just over a year on, it remains as divided as ever.

To this end, there is speculation that Starmer and his backers are planning to return to the old electoral college system. This would give the parliamentary Labour party – where the left accounts for only a fairly small minority – a disproportionate share of the vote, presumably making it all but impossible for the Labour left to win again. This is despite the fact that it was actually the Blairite right that successfully badgered Ed Miliband into introducing “one member, one vote” in the first place, in what transpired to be a calamitous miscalculation.


Well it doesn't look promising, does it? No accommodation or compromises, just an eye to marginalisation. Not the way to stop the infighting, but Starmer hasn't got the vision to see that.


05 Jul 21 - 09:33 AM (#4112377)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Is Tom Blackburn able to give us the lottery results for the next draw?


05 Jul 21 - 09:40 AM (#4112378)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy

Does the sentience thing belong in this thread?I find it fascinating.

British parliament is debating whether [some] animals are sentient.


05 Jul 21 - 10:09 AM (#4112381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Re when I was talking about working on a case by case basis I was not meaning electoral pacts or not standing in seats etc. Scottish politicians are well used to now running with minority gvts. The SNP have never been in a coalition. There is some talk that there might be one shortly in Holyrood but that would be the first time. They generally seek support from other parties on an issue by issue basis. If they haven't got the votes to get a measure through then so be it. Sturgeon said several times she had no interest in going into a Westminster coalition with Labour but would look to work with them on a case by case basis. Hence Scottish SNP MPs are not a major barrier to a Labour gvt.

As to 1979. Heavens that was 42 years ago and a different time with different leaders and different issues and quite frankly a completely different SNP. It was before they swung to the left and those advocating a swing to the left (the 79 Group) were soon afterwards expelled from the party and that included Salmond. Yes along with the Lib Dems they brought down Labour but that was on the back of them viewing Labour as betraying the Scottish elecorate in regard to the devolution referendum. However to compare what Gordon Wilson chose to do in 1979 with what Sturgeon would likely do now is nonsense. She has repeatedly said she would never keep a UK Tory gvt in power.

Likwise the idea that Thatcher benefited because of Scottish voters turning to the SNP is just plain and simply not true in the least. The SNP's share of the vote in 1979 (Thatcher's first election victory) dropped by 13% from 1974 and they only returned 2 MPs as opposed to Labour's 44 Scottish MPs. In 1983 it dropped by a further 5.5% though they retained their 2 seats as opposed to Labour's 41 MPs. In 1987 their vote recovered slightly but still only gave them 3 seats as opposed to Labour's 50 Scottish MPs. 1992 saw them get 21.5% of the vote which was up on 1979s 17.3% but still well below the 1974 number but they were still left with only 3 seats compared with Labour's 49. Labour was by far the dominant party in Scotland throughout the Thatcher years and beyond.


05 Jul 21 - 10:37 AM (#4112383)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

But how would a leftist SNP be any use at all
in keeping the tories out of power,
if you ever win full inependence...!!!

Yeah.. very dependable mates...

Like if my next door neighbour promises to back me in a fight against the town bullies,
then as soon as possible fucks off abroad leaving me in the lurch...


05 Jul 21 - 10:58 AM (#4112386)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Well we are talking in the here and now and in the here and now Scotland is a part of the UK. Beides I am not arguing that Labour need the SNP to gain power. What I am saying is as we are at the moment a majority SNP in Scottish Westminster seats is no barrier to a Labour gvt. For a Labour gvt to happen though then England is going to need to vote for it - or at the very least the vote would need to be extremely close in England for Scottish members to make any difference. That is just a plain fact.


05 Jul 21 - 11:14 AM (#4112388)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Fancy words - but the SNP are basically selfish,
and don't care a toss about deserting and letting down their English and Welsh mates...


05 Jul 21 - 01:03 PM (#4112393)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well I'm no fan of SNP politicians, but I'm a great believer in self-determination for our smaller countries (and even some regions) that are routinely sidelined by our London-centric system of government. It makes me sad to think that Labour is so rigidly - ideologically - against Scottish independence. At the very least there is a good argument to be made for it. Yes, Scotland was for many years a Labour heartland. But it's my view that Labour lost that rather than the SNP winning it, and the obduracy concerning greater self-determination for Scotland was a big part of it. The landscape has changed and I can't see Labour making massive inroads in Scotland any more.


05 Jul 21 - 02:25 PM (#4112398)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve - fair enough, we have to accept that Labour have blown their prospects of ever regaining votes in Scotland..

We all seem to agree on that...???

The problem is, we are being asked to rely on the SNPs role in any progressive alliance to stand up to tory majority domination.
When we know the SNP will jump ship at the earliest opportunity.
Leaving the rest of the UK with substantially weakened defences..

The SNP are not exactly best mates we can ever depend on in the long term...


05 Jul 21 - 02:30 PM (#4112400)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. now then, about the Wessex and Cornish independence movements..

You'll be stuck right at the arse end of the island..

While we can impose border controls on whether we let you in..

Remember our navy will control the Bristol channel...


05 Jul 21 - 02:50 PM (#4112402)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. until we construct an estuary barrage defence to keep Cornish migrants out...


05 Jul 21 - 05:10 PM (#4112412)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: An Buachaill Caol Dubh

Ah, "how to 'wider interests'
Our ain we sacrifice,
And yet tine naethin by it..."

(Hugh MacDiarmid, "The Parrot Cry").

How often so many Scots voters continue to repeat the same mistake in the hope of getting a different result. How long before the observation attributed to Einstein becomes inescapably relevant?

ABCD.


05 Jul 21 - 05:20 PM (#4112413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Meanwhile...

I still have to read through the entire document on the.modelling for step 4, but here is a paragraph to entertain:

f all but baseline NPIs are released on 21 June 2021 (Table 4), and assuming central immune escape and 165% increased transmissibility for B.1.617.2 (and central R after NPI lifting), our results suggest a third wave with an additional 59,180 (95% CrI: 33,140, 101,218) deaths could occur by 1 June 2022 (Table 5), with a peak in hospital bed occupancy about twice as high as that from early 2021 (Figure 7). Results are very sensitive to the assumed levels of transmissibility and immune escape for B.1.617.2. In the most optimistic scenario considered (low immune escape and 150% increased transmissibility, and central R after NPI lifting), an additional 26,854 (95% CrI: 11,639, 54,990) deaths could occur by 1 June 2022, with a wave of hospitalisations similar in magnitude to the last wave. In the most pessimistic scenario considered (high immune escape and 170% increased transmissibility), additional deaths could reach 136,377 (95% CrI: 94,307, 189,456). Should transmissibility after Step 4 be higher, there could be up to 203,824 (95% CrI: 179,600, 241,116) additional deaths by 1 June 2022

So maybe 26,854 deaths, in the middle path. But maybe 203,824 if it is more transmissible.

Ending restrictions is so.obvious, isn't?


05 Jul 21 - 06:11 PM (#4112417)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I will take a mask everywhere I go but I hope I won't have to use it. I won't put it on just because some mask aficionado wants to give me an argument. I won't put it on in Morrison's unless the company has a policy insisting on it (and for months I've been trying hard to avoid busy shopping times). I sanitise my hands before and after each shop visit without fail. I sanitise my hands again, as well as my car keys, every time I get back into my car. There's hardly any public transport round here so that doesn't apply. I'm not planning to go to a pub, theatre, cinema or football stadium any time soon. I'm used to keeping my distance without having to think about it. I've had both jabs. If I put on a mask and I think I haven't got the disease, the mask is a waste of time though I wouldn't know that. If I put the mask on and I have got the disease, then the first breath I take into that mask turns it into a dangerous, insanitary object that I'm sure to touch with my fingers several times while I'm wearing it. If I don't feel well I won't be going out. I'm not a COVID-denier and I'm not a mask rebel, but I hate the bloody things, think they are next to useless or worse and will be glad to see the back of them. So I welcome today's announcement and I hope he sticks to it.


05 Jul 21 - 07:09 PM (#4112418)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

So the modelling estimates 26,854 deaths optimistically and 203,824 deaths pessimistically and your response is pleasure you don't have to wear a mask?

I will assume you did not read my post.


05 Jul 21 - 07:56 PM (#4112424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Yes I read your post but I wasn't responding at all to its substance but was glad to use it as an opportunity to latch onto today's hot UK topic. That's all right, isn't it? The model extrapolates a long time into the future, describes several wildly different outcomes all based on suppositions that are currently little more than guesswork regarding variant(s) and produce spuriously accurate outcome numbers. Oh, and likely ignores confounding factors, such as the unpredictable changes in human behaviour in the months to come. Good luck with that. I'm a sceptic.


05 Jul 21 - 08:32 PM (#4112428)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I am seventy years old. Since I was a little boy I have suffered from trouble with painful sinuses and a blocked-up nose. I am well short of being able to claim that I should be exempt from mask-wearing and I would never dream of doing so. I am an extremely obedient mask wearer. I feel very strongly that this government has had no moral right to insist that I wear something over half my face for the past year. It is not possible to demonstrate that mask-wearing is beneficial in stopping the spread of the virus. A controlled-experiment style trial is impossible, and any "science" behind such claims is predicated on and limited to the kinds of observation that necessarily preclude considerations of confounding factors. Yet we are enduring an ethos of mask-wearing-is-the-moral-thing-to-do, and we have had it imposed on us, quite improperly in my view, by government edict. One in a hundred people may be infected, but we are telling the other 99, who threaten nobody, that they MUST wear a mask. Infected people, even if they're wearing masks, are a threat to everyone, but the other 99 are a threat to no-one. Well I've behaved responsibly since the first lockdown and haven't broken a single rule. But I want to CHOOSE whether to wear a mask or not and I want to hear the government giving information, advice and guidance only. No more edicts. I respect the wishes of people who want to wear masks and I would wear a mask rather than make anyone feel vulnerable if we were unavoidably very close to each other. But we drop this now or else we'll be wearing masks for at least another year. And then we'll get the same arguments all over again and it'll be another year, and another... This is the right time in my view. And you chose entirely the wrong word when you accused me of taking pleasure. Blessed relief would be accurate.


05 Jul 21 - 08:46 PM (#4112430)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG: I read your post, but pick out a clause which you may have decided to disregard:
In the most optimistic scenario considered (low immune escape and 150% increased transmissibility, and central R after NPI lifting), an additional 26,854 (95% CrI: 11,639, 54,990) deaths could occur by 1 June 2022, with a wave of hospitalisations similar in magnitude to the last wave. In the most pessimistic scenario considered (high immune escape and 170% increased transmissibility), additional deaths could reach 136,377 (95% CrI: 94,307, 189,456). Should transmissibility after Step 4 be higher, there could be up to 203,824 (95% CrI: 179,600, 241,116) additional deaths by 1 June 2022
So maybe 26,854 deaths, in the middle path. But maybe 203,824 if it is more transmissible.


The most optimistic 'considered'. Up until now we have been deluged with future projections, and almost without fail things have turned out 'better' than expected by the scientists. Or at least 'better' than the projections that have been used to frighten the public. The 'most optimistic considered' is not necessarily the most optimistic available.

I hope that when announcements are made for Wales (14 July) we also drop all, or most of, the restrictions we're currently living under.
The fact that it may then be permitted to drink standing up in pubs, without needing masks or 'social distancing', does not mean that the public will be herded into pubs by police with cattle prods. People will be permitted to make their own decisions about how and where they feel safe, and what, if any, further protective action they wish to take. The fact that face masks and hand sanitiser will no longer be mandatory should not be taken as meaning that they're banned.


05 Jul 21 - 08:49 PM (#4112431)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Alleluja, Nigel.   :-)


06 Jul 21 - 02:05 AM (#4112447)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

All modelling is limited and error prone, I agree. That is why I started off by saying "the model estimates": it is an estimation, not a certainty, by any means. 'The most optimistic considered' is standard scientific/mathematical jargon. They calculated the range for things like R values using the best available data and the best available analysis. If they used the lowest value for R they get the most optimistic considered, and the high end of the range you get the most pessimistic considered.   Of course, it is possible the R is lower that the low end of the range: it is possible it magically becomes 0. Nevertheless, on all available knowledge and testing and analysis it will not be lower than that used. Equally, it is possible R is higher, but they only considered the high end of the range of the analysis.

People are free to talk about anything they like and to disregard the model if they wish.   Johnson certainly seems be behaving as if he is. The hot topic of the day may well be masks, and opening nightclubs and all the rest.   But the warnings of the costs are published on the governments web site. Not talking about them does not mean the warnings are not there.


06 Jul 21 - 02:18 AM (#4112448)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

Supposedly, a combination of staying at home when possible, social distancing, masks and vaccines have caused a reduction in cases of, and deaths from, COVID-19.
Often in the same broadcasts that offer this information, I hear 'experts' on the radio saying that because there were so few cases of flu last winter (as a result of the staying at home, social distancing, vaccinations, masks) it is expected that there will be many more cases of flu next winter.
I don't understand why this would happen. Fewer cases of flu last winter should mean fewer people carrying the infection and therefore fewer people passing it on.


06 Jul 21 - 02:23 AM (#4112449)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I should add I do not expect as many deaths as even the "optimistic considered", because if we begin to approach that figure, some of the restrictions will be re-introduced. The model assumes they are not.

I will repeat what I think the most valid criticism of my putting that extract into the thread is, which is the one I made of myself: I have not yet read the paper in its entirety. What happened was that I noticed Whitty said the number of hospitalisations and deaths had been modelled and that the model would be published. So I thought it worth trying to find that and then do a quick scan for what it estimated the number of deaths to be. Hence the extract.


06 Jul 21 - 02:55 AM (#4112450)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I agree, Jos, that the evidence we will have a higher flu level this winter seems rather weak. I suspect a lot of it from 'armchair experts' is based on the idea of 'reverting to the mean': if you have a long term mean for something, and then an exceptionally low year, you will only revert to the mean if a compensating high value arrives.    That argument is more than a little dubious.

A stronger argument arises because illnesses like flu are broadly exponential in terms of infection. It does not matter greatly how low the starting number of infections is because after a short time the exponential effect dominates. Of course, in practice it is far more complex than a simple exponential, because it depends on encounters with susceptible people. As a result all infection curves are more 'S' shaped than a simple exponential, but in the early stages an exponential growth is a good enough model. It may well be that the experts think the low number of cases last winter together with less restrictions on meeting people will mean the number of encounters between infected people and susceptible people is far higher.


06 Jul 21 - 04:20 AM (#4112454)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

20,000 people died of flu in the winter of 2017-2018 but no laws were imposed telling us to wear masks or stay at home not mixing. Each year the flu vaccine is formulated using the best predictions of which strain(s) will predominate. Successful predictions will greatly help to reduce flu deaths. Different strains of flu viruses come from overseas as well as from within but no-one has ever suggested closing our borders every winter. Flu is a dodgy customer to deal with. We have to live with these things and try to live normal lives. Every winter there is a fairly effective campaign to inform people about flu and encourage targeted groups to get the vaccine. That is the right way to go. Information, advice and recommendations, plenty of publicity. But no coercion. This is our country, not the government's country. If we don't drop this now then maybe we never will. Compliance with the rules has been so high for so long that people's fears of catching the disease and becoming seriously ill are now exaggerated and lots of people are getting stressed about future mixing with unmasked people. Ninety-nine people out of a hundred you see with a mask on are doing nothing to stop the spread because they are not infected, so ninety-nine people out of a hundred you'll see unmasked will be doing you no harm. The fact that there is a law, not just advice, forcing those people to wear a mask is an outrage.


06 Jul 21 - 05:35 AM (#4112455)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

The SARS coronavirus died out on its own without a vaccine. From the virus's
point of view, it failed because it wasn't infectious enough. Getting everyone vaccinated is the only way I can see of making life equally difficult for this virus. Children and young people are a big issue with the current virus. You can explain things to 14-year-olds and try to persuade them to be vaccinated. We have to make sure that any dangers of the vaccines are significantly outweighed by the benefits. It isn't easy, as young people rarely suffer significantly from the virus. Even younger children are a much bigger issue because they are not competent to decide for themselves and the risk-benefit balance is much more precarious (although we do vaccinate them against several childhood disease without demur). Reducing spreading from children is a key issue and I wouldn't mind betting that the science is straining to establish the safety of vaccines for children. My sister is the head of an infant school. Each year they are offered a flu vaccine (via their parents, of course) which is administered via a puff up the nose. It's done in a fun way and the uptake is around 98%. We have to be thinking outside the box. It's going to be all about the vaccines from now on. I'm criticised for squabbling about masks, yet I have never broken the rule. Vaccine-refusers are the people who really should be getting it in the neck from the rest of us.


06 Jul 21 - 05:59 AM (#4112458)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit &