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BS: Brexit & other UK political topics

22 Aug 20 - 02:10 AM (#4069114)
Subject: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

As there has been none of the regular infighting, circular arguments or abuse on the UK Labour party thread for weeks now and I have had no objection from the moderation team about starting new political threads I think it is safe to assume the issues have been resolved.

I have copied DMcG's post to kick this one off. Hope that's OK, Dave.

Subject: RE: BS: Important issues re UK Labour Party
From: DMcG - PM
Date: 20 Aug 20 - 01:08 PM

Nothing to do with Labour again: another Brexit consequence.

"EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.

When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."

Bit of a shame for those concerned about "all these illegal immigrants", I suspect.


I agree. Brexit is nearly on us and while it is just one of the many failings of the Tory government, it does deserve a thread of its own. I may start another on the other disasters.

Nope. This one can run because it has been quieter lately, but several others intended to cause chaos are being thinned out. Mudcat is a music site and the amount of political fighting in the BS threads from the general direction of the UK and environs is too disruptive to much of the membership who come here for music. ---mudelf


22 Aug 20 - 03:14 AM (#4069122)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

why?other disasters, covid 19?
Iwas cycling along yesterday, and stopped to say hello to a walker who used to play trad music, he got on the subject of covid as soon as he could, quote
the trouble began when they restricted congregations of churches t less than 50, it is the house of god, god is all powerful, you are safe inthe house of god unless you are an atheist or communist.
the alternative round here is to talk to sheep, the conversation is equally perplexing


22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM (#4069124)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all.


22 Aug 20 - 03:36 AM (#4069125)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

Goggle Ads posted "the 10 best Casinos on line" at the top of this thread. Goggle knows everything about us, so what are they telling us this time?

I posit they are whispering Brinkmanship - the kind that doesn't have a contingency plan in case of rare but inevitable far reaching serious interventions.

And that intervention happened like shit does, when you leave things to the last minute.

Did they "beware what you wish for"? we have less than 6 months to find out what they** wished for. The bet is we will get just that. Then we will habituate to the new normal, and we will blame Brexshit and they will blame COVID and everyone will think they are correct.

**we should be obvious but who are they ? Fakebook & St Petersberg come into that equation IMNSHO.


22 Aug 20 - 05:30 AM (#4069129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Mr Red:
You're probably right about 'brinkmanship', but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Dave the Gnome:
Interesting to see that the original quote (whatever its unstated origin) mentions refugees and migrants . It seems someone at least accepts that not all those arriving are actually 'refugees'.

Maybe this time around we will see a discussion based more on facts than on suppositions. We can but hope.


22 Aug 20 - 05:43 AM (#4069131)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

As a partial answer to the usual question of why families are risking crossing the English Channel, this quote:

Though it is hard to grasp at first sight why any family would sleep in a wood rather than apply for asylum in France, the families and the charities who support them say the official accommodation centres are dirty, frightening and inappropriate for vulnerable families.
Armed police try to get families on to buses, tearing up tents. After a certain number of days families must apply to stay in France, and many do not want to do that.
One father told Fallowfield: “If the French would give us even basic support, I would go to the accommodation centre for my children’s sake. But they treat us like animals.”
Like other families here, he sees trying to reach the UK as his only option. “I have destroyed my life for my children to have a better future. I don’t want my kids to grow up where someone can brainwash them and make them kill for a living. Islamic State came to our country and that’s why I have come to this shit place. It’s the hardest job in the world being a parent.”

From The Guardian

So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?


22 Aug 20 - 06:06 AM (#4069133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Firstly, of course I have no objection to copying my post as an introduction to this thread.

I find it a bit of a stretch to imagine many people voting to leave because they were dismayed of what was happening to refugees and migrants in France and thought we should be treating them here and better. So that seems to be rather beside the original issue, which was the loss of the right to send such people who get to the UK back to the EU countries. Even last night on Newsnight one of the Conservative MPs for an area in Kent - I forget which - was stressing the importance of the Dublin Agreement.


22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM (#4069138)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either. I'm not sure how your quote from the Guardian answers anything though. After the end of this year we will have no right to send anyone entering this country illegally back to their country of EU entry. I think DMcG's point about this ruling being against what some leavers voted for is still valid.


22 Aug 20 - 10:11 AM (#4069162)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

So,if we can no longer return failed asylum seekers to France from 1 January, we will need to repatriate them to their homes, which is also an option. BBC: Failed asylum seekers
While this is more difficult than just returning them to France, it does stop them immediately re-joining the camps at Calais and trying again.


22 Aug 20 - 10:27 AM (#4069164)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

but you wording suggest that you seem to think it is only being practised by the UK side of the negotiations.

Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.

There is no doubt that Europe has something to lose by not securing a deal. But the UK has more to lose. So playing my "life ain't binary" card, I am of the opinion that the brinkmanship is more irresponsible when the loss is the greater.

Change costs money, and this change will cost, and payback is ill-defined. Making deals at the last minute means dependent systems/infrastructure will be formulated in a hurry, and mistakes will be made. Which is why change costs more money. Which is why the UK has more to lose.


22 Aug 20 - 01:28 PM (#4069187)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Absolutely, Mr Red. I have nothing against change. Some of my best results in life have come though drastic change. But change for changes sake or, even worse, change when you have no idea what you are changing to is a nightmare.


22 Aug 20 - 02:07 PM (#4069192)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

we can repatriate failed asylum seekers. Which means after their case has been reviewed. This is unlike the Dublin Agreement under which we could send them to France immediately, I believe. We cannot return a successful asylum seeker who is recognised as a refugee, but again a number would have been returned to France and the decision taken there, leaving France to host the refugee.

So while we can indeed send failed asylum seekers home, the number remaining in the UK is likely to be higher if we do not get agreement in place. Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.


22 Aug 20 - 02:51 PM (#4069193)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Which is of course why the UK government sought to have something similar to the Dublin Agreement accepted by the EU.
And which is why, while negotiations are ongoing, we do not know what will be needed.


22 Aug 20 - 02:56 PM (#4069194)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Mr Red:
Where in the UK might St Petersberg be?

they was deliberately vague but there is no doubt it refers to the politically oriented even if there is no nationality stated or (& I can be the authority on that point) ............ implied.
It has been inferred though. And other than my words, I am not in control of that.


At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned. Only those involved in the negotiations, UK & EU, can employ brinkmanship. St Petersburg is a non sequitur


22 Aug 20 - 04:47 PM (#4069206)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator

"So maybe they are still refugees, fleeing an oppressive regime. Do we really want to remain part of a Union with such a regime?"

I need to learn bow to do the italics.....

SO maybe if the racist little ****s in the UK were to make a serious and equal commitment to helping with refugee resettlement, countries that are doing far more than us like France and Germany would be under far less economic pressure.

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?


22 Aug 20 - 05:01 PM (#4069207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

also it is well documented that English is more widley spoken around the tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?
Any chance we can have that comment in English?


22 Aug 20 - 06:54 PM (#4069218)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator

also it is well documented that English is more widely spoken around (the world than other European languages. I hope you are not too) tight fisted to pay for French/German/Greek etc tuition for every person who may need to seek asylum in the future?


23 Aug 20 - 03:16 AM (#4069262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

Why? round and round in circles yet another discussion that gets nowhere, entrenched opinions, what a waste of time, bring back Jim, his style of insult was not as imaginative as MGM, but it provided a relief from the ennui of the fellow with his fishing rod .


23 Aug 20 - 03:23 AM (#4069266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.

You have been prepared in the past to accept their may be short term damage to the UK because of Brexit but that in the long term that is an acceptable cost to get the benefits*. I don't see why you can't say the same here: it is less than we wanted but in the long term we can absorb any disadvantages. Instead you seem to be suggesting it is not significant.

* With no estimate of the likelihood of that 'may' or hint of what 'short term' might be in practice.


23 Aug 20 - 04:57 AM (#4069281)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

At the time you mentioned 'brinkmanship' St Petersburg (sp) hadn't been mentioned

We can all nitpick when we favour parts not the whole. Which, let's face it, is why we have Brexshit.

And external parties pushing propaganda via social media.
Who has the most to gain from a divided Europe?
Who has the effrontery to poison people in other countries?
Manipulating Fakebook barely registers on the poison scale.


23 Aug 20 - 05:57 AM (#4069292)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

St Petersburg is a non sequitur

Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Dick, up to now no one is insulting anyone. Apart from you. It is not necessary, it is counter productive and it gets threads closed. We can now, hopefully, have a serious discussion where people disagree but respect each other's views and have threads without the rancour that has plagued earlier attempts.


23 Aug 20 - 06:40 AM (#4069294)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

Good post, Dave.


23 Aug 20 - 07:05 AM (#4069298)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I agree. I will not push the Dublin Agreement issues furthwr unless something changes. Those who wish have set out their views and that ahiykd be enough.


23 Aug 20 - 10:44 AM (#4069317)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Wow, what was that word supposed to be? 'should', believe it or not.


23 Aug 20 - 04:18 PM (#4069367)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Jos

I'm getting the hang of these typos now - just look at the letters to the right or left on the keyboard. It gets confusing though when the 'words' include some correct letters. You just need to guess which ones.


24 Aug 20 - 02:54 AM (#4069414)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I spotted it, Dave :-)


24 Aug 20 - 03:17 AM (#4069415)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I'd being staying at a Premier Inn after visiting my children. My wife called out out that we need to leave for breakfast now to get to them, so "I'll just finish this post before we dash off"...


I do make far fewer typos when I use my laptop, but the phone is a bit of a disaster for them, I am afraid. And I rarely think my posts have enough merit to justify the sort of attention a thesis, job or application or report would get.


Meanwhile, back to Brexit. This comment from the EU that the negotiations are going backwards seems to have stirred some Brexiteers I read elsewhere into action.   They interpret it as saying what the EU wanted is not being achieved but the UK is holding firm and the EU is gradually realising it. Seems unlikely to me: the 'going backwards' phrase to me would be saying that things that had been agreed were not longer being agreed to. To what extent that is talking about things in the WA that the UK is trying to get out of, as opposed to things agreed in principle at the start of this batch of negotiations but no longer accepted is hard to tell. Certainly, there is plenty of the former.


24 Aug 20 - 06:39 AM (#4069424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Interesting remark in "The New European" from Alistair Campbell - I know, ad hominem away! - but I think it it true. It has been a long time since I heard this myself:


As for Brexit, even its high priests have given up singing its praises. I cannot for the life of me remember the last time I heard anyone saying how great it was going to be for the country. It has taken on the feel of a trip to the dentist, or filling in your tax form.

Just got to be done.


Your experiences may differ, of course.


24 Aug 20 - 07:09 AM (#4069426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG:
It seems to me, Nigel, that you are trying too hard to dismiss this issue. There is only one reason why the UK tried to negotiate such a deal and that is that they see it as better than any of the alternatives. And that applies while the negotiations are ongoing.
I am not dismissing the issue. But it is not as yet something which is 'set in stone'. Despite the initial post with an uncredited quote:
EU negotiators have rejected a British request for a migration pact that would allow the government to return asylum seekers to other European countries.
When the Brexit transition period expires on 31 December, the government will lose the right to transfer refugees and migrants to the EU country in which they arrived, a cornerstone of the European asylum system known as the Dublin regulation."


"The EU negotiators have dismissed". Yes, they've also dismissed the UK keeping its own (internationally agreed) fishing rights, and the UK have dismissed EU claims to UK fishing rights. This is all still under negotiation. To choose one particular 'dismissal' by EU as final is a poor starting point for any discussion.

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK of leaving the EU, but there would also be costs in remaining. I still believe the vote on leaving had the correct result.


24 Aug 20 - 07:15 AM (#4069427)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave the Gnome
Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now.

Yes, I saw reports on "Russian involvement in British politics". I did not see that it included (even in the Guardian) involvement in Brexit. In fact there were complaints that involvement in Brexit was excluded from the remit of the reports.
Perhaps you saw different reports.

Guardian:Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did


24 Aug 20 - 07:48 AM (#4069431)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

And yes, I still accept that there will be costs to the UK

Last time we discussed this, Nigel, you objected to a use of 'will' and insisted on a 'may'. Has that changed?


24 Aug 20 - 09:48 AM (#4069437)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

It may be that I was responding to something more specific.


24 Aug 20 - 10:02 AM (#4069441)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)


24 Aug 20 - 11:07 AM (#4069444)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Rain Dog

Well I would think that most people would agree that there will be extra cost involved in the immediate future. Of course we will have to wait and see if the cost of leaving works out cheaper down the line.


24 Aug 20 - 11:29 AM (#4069448)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Yes, Rain Dog, they do now. That doesn't mean they did before.

Of course, as soon as you admit costs, it is reasonable to expect some sort of cost benefit analysis, preferably with more depth than 'perhaps it will work out in the end.'


25 Aug 20 - 05:52 AM (#4069544)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

DMcG
I could dig out the exact quotation, which was much longer ago than I thought (Jan 19!) but I am more interested whether you now think, whoever is responsible, that costs to the UK are (almost) inevitable. The Jan 19 post said you thought they may arise but would be worth it to achieve Brexit.
I hate to suggest that you haven't actually quoted me because I didn't insist, as claimed: that costs only 'may' occur. If I've found the same quote as you (27 Jan 2019) it says: "And I don't think I said "There will be some short term hardship". I think I accepted that there 'may' be, but that it was worth it to get out."   The 'possibility' of 'hardships' is different to the 'need' for 'costs'.

Also in the news: The EU and US have signed a trade deal (without needing to accept thes2 pesky chlorinated chickens!)
So much for the numerous arguments, made many times on these threads (by remainers) that such a deal would never be accepted by the US.

My full quote, in context, is here: Here


25 Aug 20 - 06:07 AM (#4069546)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

We are trying to avoid arguments on this generation of the many threads, so I will simply say that if a cost is not a hardship, you are in a very fortunate position.

Let's move on!


25 Aug 20 - 06:15 AM (#4069549)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

A cost is certainly not the same thing as a hardship, and to try to conflate the two in order to get away with a misquote is misleading. Everyone has 'costs' every day, that does not mean that they are suffering from 'hardships'.
However, as you say, Let's move on.


25 Aug 20 - 09:01 AM (#4069565)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 06:43 AM

I am happy to have facts quoted and sources credited, Nigel. Let us hope semantics do not enter into the argument when meanings are obvious either.


25 Aug 20 - 04:53 PM (#4069619)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

A very interesting piece by Brendan Donnelly Here. I wonder how the Leave-Brigade will dress up the impending shit-show to make it appear as a resounding success?


25 Aug 20 - 06:11 PM (#4069633)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.

Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some.of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.


26 Aug 20 - 02:34 AM (#4069665)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Well, not really.


26 Aug 20 - 03:46 AM (#4069670)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.

Howver, something else about the headline you reerence, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it? The right wing press who are owned, in the main, by a dysfunctional Australian billionaire, a tax-exile Lord and a Russian family with close links to the KGB. These people have their own agenda and you can be sure that the welfare of the British people is not on it.


26 Aug 20 - 03:58 AM (#4069673)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I think many of them were, but were dismissed as 'Project Fear'. The main difference this time is that it is the current government considering them, which is of course very much a "Leave" government.

How likely they are will vary. A shortage of some foodstuffs in December seems very likely to me, as we all remember the Great Pasta Shortage at the start of the virus outbreak. I can see that being repeated with a much wider set of foods fairly easily. Power cuts seem less likely to me.

===

I have been thinking a little about the fabled cliff edge, which has not been mentioned for some time. As with so much to do with Brexit, it is remarkably ill defined, so let me tell you how I think of it.

Let's start with the concept of a 'transition'. In the ideal world, we start with a known situation (for example set of rules and regulations) and a destination (with its spelled out set of rules and regulations.) During the transition, firms have, say, two years to implement the IT systems, carry out staff training and whatever so that at the end of the transition period they are ready to go under the new system.   The less time they have to do this - one year rather than two, say - the more difficult it is.   We are currently in the position that with four months to go, very little is known about the final state. Consequently, it is extremely difficult for anyone to have the appropriate IT, training and other preparation.

It turns out that whatever we have called it, we have not had a 'transition period', as few if any firms has had a chance to transition. We have simply had an extended negotiation period and called it a 'transition period'.

This to me is 'the cliff edge': it is not primarily economic. It is the need for firms to adapt to a substantially different way of working with little or no notice. An announcement on 31 December of the new rules that people have to follow from 1st Jan, or even with three months holiday from one side but not the other or whatever, is a cliff edge.

Trying to cope with such changes will almost certainly have significant economic effects, but they are consequences of the regulatory cliff edge.

Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.


26 Aug 20 - 04:33 AM (#4069679)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

”Given we are still trying to negotiate a trade agreement, the regularity cliff edge is looking inevitable to me. Others may, of course, disagree.”

And, without doubt, they will disagree - having voted for Christmas, the turkeys are very unlikely to want to face the fact that, in the near future, their silly, easily-led heads will be separated from their Union-Flag-bedecked bodies (metaphorically speaking, of course!).


26 Aug 20 - 04:45 AM (#4069681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

From DMcG:
For those who have not heard about it, worst case planning document was leaked to The Sun. Although other news sources have reported on this, it seems appropriate to link to The Sun's article.
Yes, it is a worst case planning document. But some of the key risks- no trade deal and a second wave, for example - are not unlikely.


Immediately followed by Dave the Gnome:
I wonder why these worse cases were not explained in 2016.

Possibly because they weren't understood at the time, particularly the risk of a second wave of Coronavirus when we hadn't had a first wave. To what extent may that second wave exacerbate any possible problems at borders, how could that have been foretold?


26 Aug 20 - 04:53 AM (#4069682)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Dave the Gnome:
Nigel. Going back to a point you made earlier. The report on Russian intervention did not include the Brexit referendum because it was told not to investigate that. So it doesn't mention Russian involvement in that not because there was none but because the government was embarrassed by it.
My post was a direct response to your claim that the report had detailed involement in Brexit.
"Have you not seen the report on Russian involvement in British politics, including the Brexit debacle, Nigel? Your illustrious leader hushed it up before the election but it is out now".
Which you now appear to accept that it didn't.

However, something else about the headline you reference, "Russian intervention didn't sway the Brexit referendum – our rightwing press did", has been bothering me.

Are you really saying that the right wing press swaying the referendum is any better than the Russians doing it?

No, I am not making that claim, I was just emphasising that the left wing press had already accepted that the report did not include Brexit.


26 Aug 20 - 05:51 AM (#4069690)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.


26 Aug 20 - 03:10 PM (#4069724)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I agree the risks due to the near simultaneous end of transition and the virus could not have been foretold specifically in 2016. There was, of course, a more generalised concern about a pandemic, but obviously at a much lower probability.

On the other hand the presentation is dated June and it was the 13th of July that Gove formally announced the transition would end in January 2021. So this government consciously accepted all the risks that have been outlined. A risk is not a certainty, of course, but the increased risk is a deliberate choice.


26 Aug 20 - 03:42 PM (#4069728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Scrap that, sorry. The document is labelled July, not June. So we cannot be certain whether the government saw the document and then announced the end of transition, or the other way around.   If it is the other way round, though, it would seem rather lackadaisical to make an announcement and then only get a presentation on the consequences sometime over the next two weeks.


26 Aug 20 - 04:33 PM (#4069733)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel, accepted that the report did not include Brexit does not mean that there was no Russian involvement. The government hushed it up so, going back to my original point, it does seem that there was Russian involvement in the Brexit debacle. Your attempt at derailing the issue is blatant and will not work.

I'm not trying to derail the discussion, your original claim was that Russian involvement in Brexit was in the report. Which you now seem to accept it was not.

Accepting that the statement was in error is a much better way of getting the discussion to move on than trying to justify your original claim.


27 Aug 20 - 02:24 AM (#4069781)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

Everyone but you understood my point, Nigel. The Russian involvement in British politics was the point behind the real original post mentioning St Petersberg. Nitpicking at its very best. Well done, Nigel, you win. I shall not take the thread any further off track.


27 Aug 20 - 03:01 AM (#4069787)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

I reckon johnson is preparing to use ill health as an excuse to run away from responsiblities regarding Brexit in JAN FEB 2021.


27 Aug 20 - 03:19 AM (#4069788)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

You may well be right, Sandman, through it is also possible the party 'persuades' Johnson to quit. The more I think abut it, though, the more complications I see and so I am very loathe to make any predictions on the matter.


27 Aug 20 - 03:28 AM (#4069789)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome

The whole brexit debacle has been a fiasco from the start and I cannot see it being any different at the end. Not that it will end in December. The effects will be with us forever. The one lesson that we can come away with is that this is what you get by pandering to right wing xenophobes. I only hope that future governments will take heed.


27 Aug 20 - 12:33 PM (#4069865)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

imo johnson is a political opportunist who plays the populist card. Mussolini did this and ended upside down hanging ignominously with his mistress.
for our USA friends. Mussolini [IL DUCE] was an italian fascist Right wing xenophobe


29 Aug 20 - 07:01 AM (#4070047)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

I talked above about a 'cliff edge' being less about a direct economic one but much more a consequence of a regulatory cliff edge where what needs to be done is not known until just before it needs to be implemented.

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

I think that is a good indicator that is what we might look forward to at the end of December.


29 Aug 20 - 09:17 AM (#4070053)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Stilly River Sage

The old history stuff is completely understood, Dick. No need to patronize. It's the modern stuff that is an incomprehensible tangle. But then, who are we to criticize until we get the current occupant out of the White House? We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.


29 Aug 20 - 02:04 PM (#4070089)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Nigel Parsons

That the government apparently released changed guidance for schools on Friday which is the last normal working day before they need to be in place this coming week is exactly the sort of 'cliff edge' impact I mean: it is impossible to act on anything in this guidance that differs from what went before - as it presumably does or there would be no point in issuing it.

And some people claim that the government's instructions are indecipherable.


29 Aug 20 - 02:49 PM (#4070092)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

If anyone else agrees it is indecipherable I will happily rewrite it. I accept the sentence is quite long and elaborate, but it is hardly of the complexity of Ulysses.


01 Sep 20 - 06:43 AM (#4070317)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: SPB-Cooperator

The government's instruction do not provide clear instruction on how to gauatnatee freedom of movement, which only pathetic racists and wannabe neo-****s are against.


01 Sep 20 - 06:53 AM (#4070321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Donuel

cliff edge? More like freefall.


01 Sep 20 - 09:18 AM (#4070341)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Brexit: Boris Johnson signals no-deal increasingly likely and hits out at EU for refusing to compromise

So much for an 'over ready deal'. Or was the deal just assuming the EU would give up and let the UK have whatever it wanted?


01 Sep 20 - 09:25 AM (#4070342)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Backwoodsman

If Johnson was a character in Game of Thrones, his name would be ‘Boris the Blame-Shifter’. It’s the only thing he and Rasputin Cummings are any good at. And lying, of course.


02 Sep 20 - 02:54 AM (#4070430)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

and that ahiykd be enough

ahiykd we call that a micro-coffefe ?

and

I am getting a de ja vu moment or is it an analogue? When the resurrectors** of Adderbury Morris spoke to the old boys who had been Morris dancers before WW1, they found that the reason the Morris faded was that their agenda had changed. There were more important things to address. So the relatively slow progress of this thread looks to show how much COVID has trumped the debate.

**as reported in "They Way of the Morris"


02 Sep 20 - 03:52 AM (#4070438)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: DMcG

Yes and no, Mr Red. One important difference is that it is very likely that we will find a vaccine for covid in a year or two at most, if it is possible at all. After that point, it will be of much lower concern, though there will be more awareness of the risks of similar diseases, with a bit of luck.

The consequences of the trade agreements we reach will have effects lasting decades. The Brexit supporting Professor Minford said this included major reductions, or even elimination, of the UK industrial and farming sectors, for example.

So it is completely understandable that the majority of most people's attention is on covid. Mine is as well. But that does not make the trade deals we come up with unimportant.


02 Sep 20 - 12:49 PM (#4070491)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

Brexit, is appearing to be a big mistake.


02 Sep 20 - 12:52 PM (#4070492)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Raggytash

some of us realised that four years ago.


03 Sep 20 - 02:04 AM (#4070562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

yes,raggytash you were not the only one 49 per cent thought so, but with the addition of covid it appears to be an even bigger mistake


03 Sep 20 - 07:28 AM (#4070597)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Mr Red

Yes and no, Mr Red.

But after a year's testing and trickle feeding out the vaccine to the most deserving in society, assuming the world can produce enough effective vaccine in a year. Do you have any idea of the logistics involved? Do we have enough chickens to make all the eggs? And if we do, less eggs for eating & up goes the price of eggs on the retail market.

Brexshit will be a reality and the price of eggs (et al) will be rising as a result. And which will be the more scary?
1) The UK out on a limb with few deals in place and new systems in place like customs deflating the excitement of foreign travel.
2) Or Travel abroad pretty scary on its own, with uncertainty if getting home un-plannable ahead and how much quarantine necessary on return. Not to mention the long term affects of surviving the virus!

My point was: Brexshit will be a lesser concern by comparison, and it can be endured, and enduring it will be. History tells us. If we listen.


03 Sep 20 - 01:23 PM (#4070633)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: The Sandman

IF IRELAND gains unification an extra cost would be placed on europe and a financial burden would betaken off the uk economy, maybe the uk should rejoin europe?


09 Sep 20 - 02:56 PM (#4071340)
Subject: BS: Breaking International Law
From: SPB-Cooperator

I am reluctant to begin a new thread on UK politics, but I cannot find another thread to post this to. If their is an active thread, maybe the mods can move this post.

In the UK, the Northern Island Secretary stated that it is fine for the government to go against international law and pass legislation that goes against an internationally agreed treaty and therefore international law for the sake of domestic expediency.

What is telling is the following question and answer at the beginning of Prime Minister's question time. (source Hansard)

Munira Wilson
If Ministers think it is acceptable for this Government to not obey the law, how on earth can the Prime Minister expect the public at home to do so?

The Prime Minister
We expect everybody in this country to obey the law.

The hypocrisy of the reply says everything.


09 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM (#4071344)
Subject: RE: BS: Breaking International Law
From: Joe Offer

It does seem that hypocrisy is the Rule of Law these days, doesn't it? I heard a radio program the other day about a wonderful new museum that opened recently near Gdansk. It was intended to tell the story of the history of Poland during World War II. The current government completely repurposed the museum, so that nothing negative is said about the conduct of Poland or the Polish people during the war.

It seems that too many countries have been following this path recently. Honesty is no longer important.

Trump has just cancelled all racial healing classes that were being taught for government employees, saying that is "unAmerican" to teach that there is racism in our country.

-Joe-


10 Sep 20 - 01:57 AM (#4071400)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The latest wheeze of Johnson to try to unilaterally alter an international agreement - i.e. break the international law - is being criticised is the House of Representatives, where several representatives are making clear they have no intention of agreeing a US-UK Trade deal if there is any threat to the Good Friday Agreement.

Heaven knows the USA has bigger issues to deal with at the moment that they need to focus on, but that's the thing about international law: it has international effects.


10 Sep 20 - 02:07 AM (#4071402)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

What’s puzzling me is, whatever happened to the ‘Oven-Ready Deal’ that, during the GE Campaign, Johnson claimed he had negotiated, and which was ready to go?

Could it possibly have been a lie, perhaps dreamed up by Rasputin Cummings for Johnson to spout, in order to confuse feeble-minded people into voting for him?


10 Sep 20 - 04:09 AM (#4071413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

i never realised what differences there were between theresa windrush may's deal and boris f***in lying idiot johnson's deal. except that the latter had the approval of a rabid group of fascists on the tory benches. but apparently with johnson's version he has the right to just dump parts of it he doesn't like and ignore or insult our allies.

those who voted for this crew have no excuses - just saying you were inspired to leave the EU because of your racist feelings is far more creditable than saying it is because you believe that boris arrogant idiot johnson is capable of being a good prime minister and leading a competent government


12 Sep 20 - 03:14 AM (#4071596)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

History will judge Theresa May, and 'King Boris. And Mrs May will be looked on far more kindly by comparison. Yes she was ineffectual, but not because of her intellect, but because she was pushing a leviathan uphill that she didn't believe in for the sake of her tribe's unity.
Whereas Boris Turncoat Johnson just wanted to be Prime Minister.

Compare those if you will with someone who didn't even want to be leader of his party. (Was he actually ever?)

Popular vote eh? What's that worth to a pandemic ravaged principality?

And FWIW even the most optimistic pundits now forecast the financial nuclear winter I have been predicting. It ain't rocket science, change costs money, and there are now two major changes surrounding the UK. All it takes is an inevitable cold winter that must descend one day, and the mild weather we have become habituated to will throw us.
And the cry will be "The government should............."

Tell you what - my supply of non-perishables is constantly topped-up now. Against more severe lockdown &/or snow or even a personal COVID. Siege mentality maybe, but at least it is while panic-buying has faded from public consciousness.


13 Sep 20 - 08:05 PM (#4071771)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone. It was vociferously emphasised by the DUP in the Commons as the reason they had broken their alliance with the Tories, along with others.

There is no possibility that the government was no fully aware of the implications ofwhat they were signing.

But why should anyone be surprised at an English government acting in bad faith when it sees that as convenient? There's an expression "Albion perfide" which was first used as far back as the 13th century?


14 Sep 20 - 05:09 AM (#4071802)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Pretty clearly the UK government made the agreement in bad faith. The fallback position that it follows if there was no agreed free trade agreement was clearly understood by everyone.

"Under duress" rather than "In bad faith". Despite Article 50 clearly stating that "Nothing can be agreed until everything is agreed" (wording not checked, but the meaning is there). EU negotiators refused to even start discussing trade terms without an agreed payout, and other restrictions. That is what became the "Withdrawal agreement". Now that the EU (or at least Mr. Michel Barnier) are refusing to discuss trade unless we first give way on fisheries and government aid, we can see the same happening again. Article 50 (part of an international agreement) is clearly being ignored by the EU. Fortunately Boris Johnson is willing to fight fire with fire.

From the above it should be clear that I don't believe that the EU can claim the moral high ground when it comes to keeping aligned with international treaties.


14 Sep 20 - 07:38 AM (#4071811)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I love this 'nothing agreed until everything is agreed' line. Some people are interpreting 'everything' to mean absolutely everything, including perhaps whether God exists.

That sentence has a scope: "everything" refers the negotiation of the Withdrawal agreement and an agreed text of the Political Declaration. Which have been agreed.


14 Sep 20 - 09:35 AM (#4071827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow

The EU did indeed insist on necessary guarantees before it was willing to enter into negotiations, true enough. So if the UK was unwilling to give those guarantees the right thing would have been to accept that, and leave without a trade deal.

The problem with that would have been that, while that was fine with the clique in charge under Johnson, they could never have sold it. It would not have been acceptable to Parliament, and in fact would not have lost an awful lot of votes in the subsequent election, and they¡d never have got that stonking majority of yesmen and women.

Signing the agreement with no intention of keeping it was primarily a way of conning the British people rather than the EU. Now it looks very much as if the Johnson Mob has succeeded in enginering the no deal exit that was intended all along.

Very clever bit of management, a classic con-trick. What Baldrick would have called "a cunning plan". And we know how well those always worked out in the end...


15 Sep 20 - 09:04 AM (#4071941)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

after the disgraceful decision (presumably born of jealousy) that the bbc were to stop broadcasting nicola sturgeon's daily information to scots about her government's covid strategy,we now hear that bbc 'stars' are to be stopped commenting on political matters. this is just suppression of free speech, decency and competent government . what has england become? and some people like this stuff? if you enable fascism - what are you?


16 Sep 20 - 03:44 AM (#4072050)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Suppression of free speech
Curfews
Rat on your neighbours

It all sounds frighteningly familiar...


16 Sep 20 - 04:25 AM (#4072052)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

There are other things I would add to that as well, Dave. For example movement of powers from Parliament to ministers is a very disturbing trend. In several bills recently, including the Internal Market, Parliament has voted not to have the authority to review minister's decisions. Obviously in the Internal market that has not yet completed, but those clauses are there.


16 Sep 20 - 07:09 AM (#4072059)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

We see your clown and raise you a sociopath.

SRS - would you have accepted the third Bush? Instead of the one in your hand.


29 Sep 20 - 03:23 PM (#4073626)
Subject: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs

At last someone prepared to speak out against the wimpie wokies!!!!!!!!!


29 Sep 20 - 03:36 PM (#4073629)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker

Oh that has-been actor, and now malleable ventriloquist's dummy for the radical right...


29 Sep 20 - 03:50 PM (#4073632)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Bonzo3legs

That's the one!!


29 Sep 20 - 03:57 PM (#4073633)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: punkfolkrocker

What we wanna know is who is funding his newly born political aspirations,
and how many £££$$$$ they are happy to flush down the bog...???


29 Sep 20 - 08:22 PM (#4073655)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Steve Shaw

He's about as charmless and despicable as Tim "Wetherspoon" Martin, which is saying something.


30 Sep 20 - 03:27 AM (#4073671)
Subject: RE: BS: Lawrence Fox - a man to watch!!
From: Nick

Lawrence Fox is a man NOT to watch. And as he has becomes more and more unemployable in what he was slightly good at ie acting he will undoubtedly end up disappearing. Hopefully.


30 Sep 20 - 02:22 PM (#4073750)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

The proliferation of UK political topics is a problem. Argue about all of it in one place, please.


30 Sep 20 - 05:42 PM (#4073782)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

For all the fishermen who fell for the lie about protecting them.

Britain offers EU fishing concession as part of Brexit sweetener


30 Sep 20 - 05:46 PM (#4073783)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on. Where do things stand now?


30 Sep 20 - 06:08 PM (#4073790)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Too many of us are resigned to either being in an induced coma in intensive care, or prematurely deceased,
before any progress is made on brexit...


30 Sep 20 - 06:41 PM (#4073796)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

To answer Silly's question about Brexit. We are in a very critical time as far as negotiations are concerned. There will probably be a lot of noise over the next two weeks. The EU gave until today for some clauses to be dropped from UK legislation and they have not. There is an EU meeting on 15th/16th October which Johnson has said is a deadline. The EU has said the end of October is its deadline. Meanwhile the EU has rejected a UK request for special treatment for cars assembled from Japanese parts (etc) to be treated as if those parts originated in the UK; the UK has offered a phased deal for fishing and the Government has warned of up to 7000 vehicle/2 day delays as a "reasonable worst case" lasting for months from 1 January.

Any or all of this could change in the next four weeks.


30 Sep 20 - 06:55 PM (#4073799)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

We haven't seen much about Brexit with the COVID-19 stuff going on.

The only good thing about COVID-19 is that it stops us having to talk about Brexit. If only we could find something, other than Brexit, to stop us having to talk about COVID-19.

DC


30 Sep 20 - 06:58 PM (#4073800)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Not good, though, Doug. Coronavirus has indeed sidelined brexit. Which is exactly how this crappy government hopes to bury bad news...


30 Sep 20 - 06:59 PM (#4073801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Doug - We could numb the anguish
by restricting ourselves to only discussing American politics...???????


30 Sep 20 - 07:55 PM (#4073804)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

There'd be more intellectual clout in discussing the latest developments in what my grandson's Year One class were getting up to. Yesterday he won the class prize for being the best tidier-upperer. Last week he was one of only five in his class to reach rainbow status. Dammit, I bathe shamelessly in reflected glory, in the knowledge that he's achieved far more worthwhile things than either yank candidate could achieve in a hundred years...


30 Sep 20 - 08:10 PM (#4073808)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Today my mrs got the most disruptive 5 year old in her class
to go an entire day without telling any teaching staff
to f@ck off...

That's the kind of extreme woke thing those traitorous marxist feminist teachers
are doing to brainwash white working class boys
into turning into transgenders...!!!

[yes.. maybe.. I've been researching too many far right youtube channels again...???]


30 Sep 20 - 08:15 PM (#4073810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Brilliant, pfr. I salute ye (and the missus) Sir!


01 Oct 20 - 11:33 AM (#4073879)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i have never heard of lawrence fox,i have heard of other actors, but
i am not interested in their views on anything other than acting.
for example john cleese a well known actor probably has different views to lawrence fox, so what, why should i listen to fox rather than cleese, just because an accpuntant from croydon tells me too.
who exactly do you think you are, telling people we should listen to some actor called fox,rather than listening to john cleese or glenda jackson, or any other actor


01 Oct 20 - 05:09 PM (#4073921)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

It is a matter of personal taste, but compared to Tennant, Sim, Scott and others, I don't rate Lawrence Fox much as an actor. Nor compared to some others in the very extensive Fox acting clan.

I would seek him out for potitical advice, either.


01 Oct 20 - 05:24 PM (#4073923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I much prefer Emilia


01 Oct 20 - 05:25 PM (#4073924)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Not my cup o’tea either, Mac. But hey, it takes all sorts I guess!


01 Oct 20 - 05:54 PM (#4073927)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

The neo fascists must obviously now regard posh luvvie fox
as a more publicly acceptable mainstream recruitment poster boy
than football hooligan robinson ever could be...

Though they are still keeping bitter old shite comedian jim davidson
as a back up...


02 Oct 20 - 03:15 AM (#4073971)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Davidson once slept on my mother-in-law's sofa.


02 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM (#4073974)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Shame she didn’t smother the bugger with a pillow.


03 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM (#4074112)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

On reflection it might have been Freddie Star. But I don't think he ate any hamsters.


05 Oct 20 - 04:50 AM (#4074373)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

From yesterday's "Observer". I have not linked the piece as it only says the same thing in different ways but I found this section hilarious.

In the latest ConservativeHome survey of what activists think of the cabinet, the prime minister comes in 24th out of 25. The education secretary is the only cabinet member with a worse approval rating. That’s the verdict of Tory members on their own prime minister: “not quite as useless as Gavin Williamson”.

:D


08 Oct 20 - 03:16 AM (#4074711)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The usual witty and insightful review, by John Crace in the Guardian, of the Prime Minister’s woeful performance presenting his speech to the virtual Tory Party Conference.

Let’s hope Crace is right, that the former Labour voters who allowed themselves to be conned into voting Tory at the 2019 election have indeed ‘grown up’ and realised what a bunch of twonks they elected, and that they give Johnson a good kick up his fat, bone-idle, clueless arse next time (assuming he lasts that long, and his own party haven’t given him the push before then).


10 Oct 20 - 11:14 AM (#4074999)
Subject: BS: Birthday Honours
From: Bonzo3legs

Wonderful honours list which includes 414 names of NHS and social care staff, fundraisers, shopworkers and drivers, etc. - the unsung heroes of the pandemic.


10 Oct 20 - 12:17 PM (#4075009)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

It would be even more wonderful if they paid them properly. Gongs don’t pay the bills.


12 Oct 20 - 04:05 AM (#4075201)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

With 1.4 million employed by the NHS and 1.6 million in social care, 414 baubles means that 99.99% were ignored.

DC


12 Oct 20 - 05:36 AM (#4075208)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Spot on Doug.


12 Oct 20 - 05:42 AM (#4075209)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Today's main Brexit event is the Agriculture Bill returning to Parliament.

The story so far:

In December 2019, all Conservative ministers stood on a manifesto that included maintain the UK food standards (p 57 for those interested.)

When the bill first came to the House, it included nothing to protect the standards. Amendments to introduce those commitments were proposed, but voted against.

The bill passed to the Lords, who wrote such protective measures into the bill.

It has now returned to the House of Commons to be voted on this afternoon. The Government has declared one of the amendments inapplicable of a technicality and it was reported in either the Times or the Telegraph (I forget which), that Dominic Cummings "instructed ministers" not to accept the amendments.

The last poll of the public suggested 94% want the standards preserved. I know polls are very unreliable, but it is fair to conclude, I think, that the majority want the standards maintained. The RSPCA do. The NFU do. The environmental groups do. Consumer bodies like "Which?" do. Some supermarkets have said they will not stock chlorinated chicken.

But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.


12 Oct 20 - 07:10 AM (#4075221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”But it is almost certain the MPs will vote against amendments to protect the standards.

Such is taking back control.”


Those of us with more than half a brain knew exactly what the BrexShit-Bunch’s ‘Take Back Control’ meant.


12 Oct 20 - 10:08 AM (#4075241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

what a mess


12 Oct 20 - 12:22 PM (#4075260)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Of as someone cleverly said the other day, an Eton mess is supposed to be meringue, cream and strawberries. Not what the government do :-D


12 Oct 20 - 02:04 PM (#4075275)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Seems that the areas most likely to vote Tory next time have been left in the lowermost tier.


12 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM (#4075278)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Gawrsh , who’da thunk it?


12 Oct 20 - 02:43 PM (#4075280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I thought the lowermost tier was for those areas showing the lowest rate of virus infection. The areas where, whether by luck or good judgement, people have avoided spreading the virus.


12 Oct 20 - 03:22 PM (#4075283)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Something like that, Nigel. But if it was exactly like there there would be a little table somewhere saying when the cases per thousand was such and such then you would be at level N. Since there isn't - so far - then there is some margin of judgement, and that could be partly political.


12 Oct 20 - 03:23 PM (#4075284)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

The virus is far more prevalent in large conurbations and deprived areas, Nigel. 'Tis true that some constituencies in those areas were stupid enough (or at least contained a lot of stupid enough people) to return a Tory. Once their pubs have been shut (for beer at least) for a few months, their jobs have disappeared and a few more thousand of them have died, the time may well become ripe for the feckless Johnson to look to his laurels...

Unless, of course, the almost equally feckless "Dishy Rishi" has taken over...


13 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM (#4075381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

"meringue, cream and strawberries" ? It’s more likely to be a choice between jam roly poly and custard and apple pie and custard .That’s from what I saw when doing some plumbing in a Whitehall club a long time ago ........... Maybe they were from Harrow though.


13 Oct 20 - 10:12 AM (#4075384)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

sorry for the thread creep, carry on.


13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM (#4075436)
Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless her!


13 Oct 20 - 08:06 PM (#4075442)
Subject: RE: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Steve Shaw

My father-in-law, a mighty Somerset man and a far better person than Thatcher, would also have been 95 today. He died ten years ago. I loved him to bits. He would probably have been ashamed had he known about the coincidence.

Funny how it goes. Mrs Steve's lifelong best friend has her birthday today (we had her round for tea and a chocolate brownie this afternoon, and she's coming round for my lamb stew on Saturday night), as does my first fiancée (she had a lucky escape), as does one of my best mates from school in the sixties. Nothing on the 12th, 14th or any other day anywhere near. Weird!


16 Oct 20 - 01:38 PM (#4075681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Yet again, it seems Boris Johnson is saying yes, we really really will walk away from the trade deal talks, we mean it and this time are so so serious.

But not actually quite doing it.

Looks like it will be no deal at the end of October on the EU timetable at this rate. Unless the PM actually concedes enough to satisfy the EU, with probably them giving him a fig leaf to exalt over.


16 Oct 20 - 03:33 PM (#4075688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Others might say that the EU, having failed to make the UK cave in to their demands, is extending their previous 'definite deadline'.


16 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM (#4075694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

People can say that if they like. But on 2nd September Barnier said the end of October is the deadline, and on the 7th Johnson said it was the 14th.

Whether Barnier said it earlier I haven't checked, but that 2nd September speech is available online.


16 Oct 20 - 04:43 PM (#4075695)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

15th. Sorry, the inevitable typo.


16 Oct 20 - 05:10 PM (#4075698)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit
From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 22 Aug 20 - 03:32 AM

I think there is already a thread on the virus, Dick. It is a worldwide issue after all. quote
Brexit is a world wide issue too, it aff4cts the usa china ne zealand australia furthermore the whole world
Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless hr quote.
a matter of opinion, not a fact, other than it was her birthday


17 Oct 20 - 04:43 AM (#4075728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

EU are not making demands, the British lowlife are. All EU are doing is stating what the conditions are for a trade deal outside of the single market. If UK wants to trade with EU the accept EU conditions.

The trouble with people who support leave is that they are so arrogant that they would try to join a folk club and demand the right to change the club rules to their own benefit.

Losing our rights as EU citizens is another matter, and the EU withdrawing our freedom of Movement and benefits of the single market as individuals' is nothing but vindictiveness.


17 Oct 20 - 05:26 AM (#4075730)
Subject: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman

new allegations about Boris and pole vaulter from Peckham.


17 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM (#4075731)
Subject: RE: BS: Boris for the high jump
From: The Sandman

The Sunday Times reports she went for the job at Tech City in 2012, weeks after Mr Johnson started bidding for City Hall to take control of the same quango.

The allegations adds to mounting questions Mr Johnson faces over his links with the businesswoman - due to appear on Good Morning Britain tomorrow.

He has already been accused of granting public funding to Ms Arcuri, whose flat he's said to have visited "several times".

She reportedly received £10,000 in business cash from an organisation Mr Johnson was responsible for as London Mayor in 2013.

And Ms Arcuri, who was in her 20s at the time, was also allegedly given special treatment to attend jet-set trade missions led by the future PM, according to a Sunday Times investigation.

Mr Johnson has now been referred to the Independent Office for Police Conduct (IOPC), and must provide details of their relationship by Tuesday to a summons from the London Assembly.

If he fails to do so he could face a penalty.


17 Oct 20 - 05:54 AM (#4075736)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Eck, if you’re quoting, why not italicise the piece you’re quoting and put it in inverted commas? Then your posts might make a bit more sense.


17 Oct 20 - 06:20 AM (#4075738)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

That was for The Sandman...


17 Oct 20 - 06:23 AM (#4075739)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Conversely Backwoodsman it might be his own opinion and he is just echoing Bonzo!


17 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM (#4075740)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Never thought of that, Raggy! Hmmmmm..... ;-)


17 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM (#4075743)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Boris want to change the conditions of trading with the EU. It's the EU's fault that talks have stalled.

Boris wants to put Greater Manchester in tier 3. Andy Burnham says that to do that they need more funding. It's Andy Burnham's fault if the contagion increases.

Anyone seeing a pattern here? Not only is Johnson a pathological liar but he also doesn't understand that negotiations are a two way thing. I suppose he was brought up to believe that if you shout, stamp your feet, throw the toys out of the pram and blame everyone but yourself, you get your own way.

I pity his children. However many there are.


17 Oct 20 - 12:53 PM (#4075770)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Any discussion of UK future trading with EU has no correlation with what's happening within the UK. Any attempt to compare the two is a non sequitur.
Similarly, any discussion about Boris Johnson's children (legitimate or otherwise) has F*** A** (very little) to do with the political discussion.


18 Oct 20 - 03:08 AM (#4075811)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest. Boris proves himself to be none of these things every time he opens his mouth. Not being able to say how many children he has sired is a prime example. Blaming the other party when negotiations go wrong is another and, in this case, worse still because it affects the lives of millions.


18 Oct 20 - 03:30 AM (#4075814)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave. What we certainly did expect was that they should be held to account when they were not. The whole rationale for Freedom of Information Acts wherever they exist is to expose the occasions politicians ae not, and to hold them to account when that happens. Ditto the various ways powers are separated.

What we have discovered over the the past few years - and the 2016 referendum is as good a starting point as any - is how weak the UK system is on holding politicians to account. When individuals and governments can be found to be in contempt of Parliament and they basically shrug and say 'So what?' the accountability is failing. T When the question of whether supreme court judges in the UK should be subject to political veto is seriously considered, the separation of powers is failing. When Parliament itself votes to have no say in ministers decisions on trade (for example), the representation of the people is failing.

Personally, I regard these things as ultimately more significant than the economic impact of Brexit.


18 Oct 20 - 04:20 AM (#4075815)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

What we are seeing now is precisely what the people of Germany saw in the 1930s. A government spreading its own propaganda, making itself unaccountable, demonising minorities - ‘the other’ - and actively creating divisions, blaming others for their own actions and inactions, practicing the Goebbels philosophy of repeating lies so frequently that no matter how big are the lies, in the people’s minds they become truth.

And we tell ourselves it could never happen here, yet we have evidence of the success of the government’s brainwashing tactics on this forum and, indeed, in this thread. Well worth remembering that, in 1930s Germany, it didn’t begin with gas-chambers, it began with ruthless politicians determined to pursue their agenda whatever the cost.


18 Oct 20 - 05:17 AM (#4075820)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

We are all aware of the risks bring Hitler into threads like this, but I don't think that oversteps the mark, Backwoodsman. It is genuinely salient to look at what was happening around the time of the Enabling Act.

I have recently been reading a book called "They thought they were free: The Germans 1933-45", first published in 1955. The author is essentially a journalist, not a historian. So far I have only read the first part, which is events as seen through they eyes of ten relatively ordinary people: a local mayor, a policeman, a baker, a teenage schoolchild and so on. I am afraid I do see parallels, though fortunately I also see very substantial differences.


18 Oct 20 - 05:28 AM (#4075821)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I deliberately didn’t mention Hitler, DMcG, for obvious reasons. However, the rise of the Far Right in the UK, as well as the US, is reminiscent of 1930s Germany, and some of the tactics and practices being employed are undoubtedly similar.


18 Oct 20 - 05:33 AM (#4075822)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Quite so, Backwoodsman, quite so.


18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM (#4075824)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

and of course ALL labour polititians are open, ethical and honest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


18 Oct 20 - 06:25 AM (#4075825)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

politicians that is!!!


18 Oct 20 - 06:29 AM (#4075826)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Politician - Sons of Cream!!!


18 Oct 20 - 06:39 AM (#4075827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Can you not read Bonzo.

Dave the Gnome posted "Of course it does, Nigel. People expect their politicians to be open, ethical and honest"

DMcG posted "I am not sure we now or ever actually expected politicians to be open, ethical and honest, Dave."

No mention there of Liberal, Labour, DUP, Scottish Nationalist, Plaid Cymru, Greens or Conservative. **

However we do have a Conservative leader who seems to be a stranger to the truth.









Apologys to those political parties I may have missed.


18 Oct 20 - 11:32 AM (#4075842)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Whataboutism just doesn't wash, Bonzo. For the first time we have a prime minister who seems to see nothing wrong with lying, cheating and plain incompetence. What is more he seems to believe he can get away with it and will continue to do so as long as the very electorate that he is leading up the garden path continue to excuse him. I hope all the turkeys that voted for Christmas are happy with the result.


18 Oct 20 - 12:16 PM (#4075844)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Tough.


18 Oct 20 - 12:23 PM (#4075845)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Don’t. Feed. The. Troll.


18 Oct 20 - 12:42 PM (#4075847)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Always the same when anyone questions the labour shambles, and it is a shambles. Even starmer has lost it now. One consolation perhaps is that abbott is out of the picture!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


18 Oct 20 - 01:42 PM (#4075855)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

But how many Labour MPs are the current prime minister?


18 Oct 20 - 02:03 PM (#4075858)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

doggerel from the dogs bollocks


18 Oct 20 - 04:30 PM (#4075869)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzo. The Tories have an 80 seat majority. The lying blonde bufoon is prime minister. Labour are powerless to do anything but point out the idiocy. The mess we are in is no one's fault but the Conservative governments. Yet you, Boris, the Conservative party and the Tory apologists will take no responsibility for anything. Preferring instead to blame a Labour party who's hands are tied. I know you don't care but I take great pleasure in seeing you trying to lay the blame elsewhere while everyone else can see where it really lies. Keep it up :-)


18 Oct 20 - 04:42 PM (#4075871)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Dave, he is dogmatic, his dogma is blame everything on the party in opposition


18 Oct 20 - 04:50 PM (#4075872)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzodogmatic? :-)


18 Oct 20 - 06:00 PM (#4075886)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Bonzodogdoodah band were far more amusing. **












My apology for the poetic licence with the name !!


19 Oct 20 - 03:52 AM (#4075923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

These comments by Lord Kerr, and the earlier ones by Lord Neuberger fit into this discussion quite well, as the address the relationship between the judiciary and Parliament.


19 Oct 20 - 04:28 AM (#4075928)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Good articles, Mac. No matter which side of the political divide anyone is on, the absolute necessity for a judiciary, independent of the political parties, with the power to call politicians to account, must be perfectly obvious.


19 Oct 20 - 04:47 AM (#4075929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

As if by magic...

https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/opinion/the-government-has-moved-to-shift-blame-to-businesses/19/10/

So businesses are to blame for the government's failure to fulfil its promises

We are to blame for their abysmal record with the virus

Labour antisemitism anyone?


19 Oct 20 - 06:58 AM (#4075937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Businesses should not be making any changes at all to the way they operate, and if anyone takes issue, then all they have to say is 'take it up with Johnson'.


19 Oct 20 - 07:24 AM (#4075938)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Stolen from a Facebook friend. Bit long but well worth it

Post this
You really couldn’t make it up! ( sorry, did I say that last time...)
The Week in Tory is back! Fasten your seatbelts...
1. Boris Johnson announced a new 3 Tier lockdown system, with the lowest Tier being
“medium”, like at McDonalds
2. As part of the announcement, the Chief Medical Officer reassuringly said the plan wouldn’t
work
3. The govt said “in all cases, we are following the science”
4. It was revealed the SAGE science committee told the govt to lockdown weeks ago, but that
bit of science wasn’t followed very far 5. SAGE went on to say the govt’s “world-beating” £12bn
Test and Trace system was having only “a marginal impact on transmission rates”
6. Dido Harding, head of Seemingly Everything, said Test and Trace would be “local by default”
and be “highly efficient”
7. She then handed £12bn to Serco, which is highly efficiently charging us £7360 per day for
consultants. To trace Covid infections. Which they aren’t doing
8. Serco’s CEO is the brother of an ex-Tory MP. His partner is a Tory donor. Serco’s ex-head of
PR is now a Tory Health Minister
9. If you feel all this is a bit corrupt, you can complain to the govt’s Anti-Corruption Champion,
John Penrose, who is married to Dido Harding
10. Meanwhile an investigation by the Good Law Project found PPE suppliers owned by Tory
donors or associates were paid 30% more per item than similar businesses globally. I'm talling
you: John Penrose. He’s your fella. He’ll get to the bottom of it, fo shizzle
11. And only 34 days since the announcement of Boris Johnson’s "brainchild", the £100bn
Operation Moonshot, it was quietly scrapped, along with (apparently) Boris Johnson’s brain and
around 28% of his children
12. A Tory MP said Boris Johnson’s “personal skillset this doesn't play to this. He's not a details,
manager type. He's a picture painter”. On the side of wine-boxes, mostly.
13. Another said “I think it's obvious this is a government happier picking fights than governing”
14. Another said Boris Johnson “prefers to get on with dog-walking” and “let’s Dominic do the
work”
15. Chastened by reports local authorities were given only 5 minutes notice of previous
lockdowns, this time the govt gave them ... 7 minutes notice of the meeting to discuss it
16. Except some MPs didn't even get that, and were only invited after the meeting had started
17. And the govt invited the MP for Sunderland, who had to inform them she was only of 3
Sunderland MPs. The govt was “surprised to be informed” of this
18. The dep Chief Medical Officer said the infection rate in the north “never dropped” meaning
the relaxation of lockdown was at the expense of lives oop north
19. Then the govt said they would “devolve more decision-making” and “give more financial aid
to local authorities”
20. But the aid is conditional on the "devolved" local authority doing what the govt wants, which
is quite a novel a definition of "devolved" 21. So, following criticism, the govt briefed the press
that it was going to consult more with regional govts
22. Literally 2 hours later, the govt briefed the press that Manchester was moving into Tier 3
restrictions. The Mayor of Manchester was not consulted (or even informed) about a decision he
must implement, and which affects the largest city-region outside London.
23. A Tory MP, anxious about the lockdown affecting businesses over the party season, asked
the PM “what can you tell us about Christmas”. Boris Johnson replied, “it’s a religious festival
that’s been celebrated 2020 years”, which I’m sure helps us all
24. Matt Hancock insisted we all follow the science and adhere to the 10pm pub curfew that
scientists say makes absolutely no improvement on infection rates
25. Then Matt Hancock broke that curfew, in a House of Commons bar
26. And then Matt Hancock said “The drinks are on me but Public Health England are in charge
of payment methodology so I will not be paying anything”
27. In August, Public Health England was scrapped by [checks notes ] Matt Hancock
28. But prior to that, Tories imposed budget cuts of 5% to 10% on Public Health England for
each of the previous 7 years
29. Unsurprisingly, it was reported that hospitals in the north of England would run out of beds
within 7 days
30. The govt said "Hospital Trusts should consider cancelling all non-urgent treatments"
31. The govt then refused to drop fines it imposes on Hospital Trusts which cancel non-urgent
treatments
32. So Matt Hancock announced the reopening of Nightingale Hospitals, which were closed last
time because nobody could send patients to them, due to them not being staffed
33. They still aren’t staffed: Matt Hancock's' "urgent boost to nursing training" doesn’t start until
2021
34. Fortunately, the govt began a campaign to get ballerinas to retrain, and then scrapped the
campaign 24 hours later
35. In June, Boris Johnson announced an "urgent" £1.57bn Arts Rescue Plan
36. A mere 127 days later, it "urgently" got around to paying out some of that money
37. Except by now the £1.57bn had become £257m, which is 16% of the plan they originally
announced
38. Meanwhile, in news that will surely leave you all stunned and astonished, a month after work
began on HS2 the budget for it has already risen a further £800m
39. Boris Johnson congratulated Marcus Rashford on the MBE he was awarded for his efforts to
overcome the cruel policies of Boris Johnson
40. The Law Society raised concerns about the “dangerous rhetoric” of Home Office Minister
and Mouth of Sauron, Priti Patel
41. The next day, a migration lawyer was victim of a knife attack, and senior lawyers said
“Responsibility and accountability for this attack lies squarely at the feet of Priti Patel”
42. The Home Office announced plans to catch migrants in a big net and OH MY GOD
43. And then Lord West reassuringly said, “we need to deal with migrants in a concentrated
place, a camp or whatever”. He didn’t mention whether Arbeit Macht Frei, but it’s still only
Thursday, and who can tell what the remainder of the week will bring? [Open 2nd bottle now ]
44. Speaking of dates: today is 15th Oct, the absolute, immoveable deadline for trade talks that
mighty, fearsome Boris Johnson laid down to the cowed and quivering EU
45. Talks continue tomorrow. Because obviously, duuur
46. This is the third absolute deadline imposed by the British that has been missed because the
British have temporarily inverted arse and elbow
47. This didn’t stop Cabinet Office minister Lord Agnew from berating haulage businesses for
not being ready for Brexit on 1 Jan
48. The Road Haulage Assoc pointed out we have only 1,668 of the 33,000 EU Haulage
Permits we need on 1 Jan
49. Software to control our borders won’t be ready until 4 months after 1 Jan


19 Oct 20 - 07:25 AM (#4075939)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Conmtinued...

50. And the govt is “still in the planning stage” of the “Kent Passports” we need on 1 Jan
51. And construction of Kent's “world’s largest lorry park” is behind schedule, so probably not
ready on 1 Jan
52. Fortunately the govt is well-prepared, and plans to install 1000s of Portaloos in Kent, the
garden of England, to be used by lorry drivers trapped in 2-day queues
53. And our food standards will still be fine, as Tory MP Nadhim Zahawi tweeted “Our manifesto
was clear. We will not compromise our animal welfare and food standards”
54. He then voted to compromise our animal welfare and food standards, as did the rest of the
Tory Party
55. And then govt used an obscure rule to deny MPs a vote on whether to allow chlorinated
chicken
56. Meanwhile, 20 years after North Sea Cod became so overfished the WWF declared it
“economically extinct”, Tory MPs voted to reduce protections designed to let fish stocks recover
57. So, after Brexit, our current plan is to accept tariffs that will destroy our manufacturing
sector, and border delays that will destroy farming exports and imperil food supplies, and
destroy the farming sector ... all so we can go and catch a fish that doesn’t exist
58. But at least we’ve now "got back control", and therefore we can level up the playing field by
implementing the govt's landmark “digital tax” policy on giants such as Amazon
59. This week it was announced Amazon will be exempt from the digital tax
60. Speaking of tax exemptions, it was revealed Dominic Cummings has had a £30,000 council
tax bill “written off” because he built the house illegally, so it doesn’t count as a real house, or
summat. Sorry, my hurricane-force sarcasm briefly turned me more northern.
61. And on the subject of extreme dodgy dealing, let me direct your attention to Robert Jenrick,
who set up the £3.6bn “Towns Fund” for the 101 most deprived town, and then gave the
maximum grant of £25m to his own constituency, which is the 270th most deprived town
63. His explanation was that he, Jenrick, did not make the decision. It was made by a colleague,
Jake Berry.
64. Jake Berry also got money for his constituency. By a dazzling coincidence, that decision
was made by – you guessed it – Robert Jenrick
65. Finally: at a meeting led by Liam Fox, the TaxPayers Alliance (insanity-pushers to the Tory
Party) advocated cutting pensions immediately because half of old people “won't be around to
vote against you in the next election”, and the other half “will have forgotten by then”


19 Oct 20 - 10:32 AM (#4075964)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

What a long list of stuff happening. How does it shake out for individual members? What are each of you seeing in your immediate world that is impacted by COVID-19-laced negotiations?


19 Oct 20 - 10:34 AM (#4075965)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Mrrzy just posted a Boxer parody about Trump and I think we can do better. I'll make a start

I am just a rich boy and and a smarmy Eton clown
I have squandered our economy
Lined my own mates pockets
And broke promises
I lie and jest
Still I do just what I have to do
And disregard the plebs
When they find out I have screwed them
I just lie
Lie lie lie
Lie lie lie lie lie lie lie
Lie lie lie...

:D tG


19 Oct 20 - 11:00 AM (#4075975)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

In answer to your question, Stilly, I am pretty lucky. Retired on a reasonable pension. No debts to speak of. No real wish for material wealth. Living in an area of low contagion. So not much effect on me as yet. However, as the economy is bound to plummet as a result of both the virus and Brexit the future is pretty bleak for many, including my family and younger friends.

The other thing is, whether it affects me or not, I do not appreciate being lied to by those who are supposed to be looking after us. I have always been cynical of politicians in any party. I think that anyone who seriously believes they can run people's lives should be debarred from public office on the grounds of megalomania. But the lot we currently have at the helm really do take the piss. I will point out their lies and broken pledges whenever I come across them.


19 Oct 20 - 11:20 AM (#4075978)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Like Dave, I am retired on a reasonable pension and not directly affected by much of this. But plenty around me are. I have a friend who owns a small haulage company and she is in near despair over the situation. Almost every question she has is still unanswered, and the licencing aspect alone has major impact. Eldest son works for an American legal firm in their London office and there is much uncertainty whether they will move everyone to their Brussels office, and if so, when. Second son works for an international fashion goods company (high end shoes, handbags etc) on the web sales side. So far they are in profit this year, having shut all the high street shops but the future is naturally uncertain. Since the growth area is online sales, though, he is probably ok.

Daughter works in recruitment, which is more affected by covid-19 than Brexit, as far as we can separate them.


19 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM (#4076016)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I live on 485 euros a month, so if anyone wants to buy anything from my website , i will be pleased


22 Oct 20 - 09:43 AM (#4076439)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Europe has been good for ireland in a liberalising approach, it has taken a country highly influenced by reactionary religious elements and gradually turned it in to a much more liberal minded and forward looking country


22 Oct 20 - 11:15 AM (#4076449)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Ireland isn’t a part of the UK.


22 Oct 20 - 03:54 PM (#4076470)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

:-)

;-)

:-))


22 Oct 20 - 04:45 PM (#4076474)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Who's the guy with the double chin?


23 Oct 20 - 02:50 AM (#4076508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Is it a double chin or a slit throat? :-)


23 Oct 20 - 03:53 AM (#4076511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

northern ireland is part of the uk , and because of brexit there is a big border problem looming, it is affected by brexit so my comment is relevant


23 Oct 20 - 04:06 AM (#4076512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I have lived in ireland for 30 years so i am aware republic of ire is not part of uk. talk about teaching grand mother to suck eggs.


23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM (#4076516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Disgusting. But, sadly, what we have come to expect

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/oct/21/government-covid-contracts-britain-nhs-corporate-executives-test-and-trace


23 Oct 20 - 09:14 AM (#4076532)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

You didn’t mention Norther Ireland, Dick, you said ‘Ireland’, which is the universally understood term for the Republic of Ireland. The Republic is not part of the UK, neither is NI a part of the Republic.

The title of this thread is ‘Brexit & Other UK political topics. Please stick to the thread topic, and don’t give the mods another excuse to close our one and only UK politics thread.


29 Oct 20 - 08:49 AM (#4077241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The EHRC's key findings as reported in the Guardian

The Labour party could have tackled antisemitism more effectively “if the leadership had chosen to do so”, the Equality and Human Rights Commission (EHRC) concluded as part of its 130-page investigations

Not that antisemitism is rife in the party, just that they could have handled it better. I'll be honest and admit that I have not read the report and am not likely to do so as I am not one for politikspeak. Any of the better versed or equipped care to comment?


29 Oct 20 - 09:37 AM (#4077247)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

And Jeremy Corbyn denies some of the findings, and has had the whip suspended for doing so.


29 Oct 20 - 09:52 AM (#4077248)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I saw he had been suspended but not for denying the findings. Do you have a source for that, Nigel?


29 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM (#4077250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Another convenient distraction from the truly important issues - the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government, the looming disaster of a Brexit crash-out with no trade-deal with the EU, the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal, the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed...the list goes on and on, need I say more?


29 Oct 20 - 10:00 AM (#4077251)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

BBC news (Radio)


29 Oct 20 - 10:01 AM (#4077252)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

...the list goes on and on, need I say more?
Hopefully not.


29 Oct 20 - 10:14 AM (#4077254)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The truth must be very painful, Nigel. But your denial won’t make it go away.


29 Oct 20 - 11:05 AM (#4077266)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I didn't deny it, however:
Another convenient distraction from the truly important issues - the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government, the looming disaster of a Brexit crash-out with no trade-deal with the EU, the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal, the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed

"the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government": Up until the last week the Labour party supported all the actions, and didn't offer alternatives, so not just the "Tory government"
" the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal": As no UK/US trade deal has yet been agreed, this is mere supposition.
"the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed": Specifics? or just random claims?


29 Oct 20 - 11:25 AM (#4077270)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government"

can you even begin to imagine the winkie wankie wokie abortion which a Corbyn (now sacked from the labour party) government would have been guilty of?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????


29 Oct 20 - 11:56 AM (#4077272)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzo, how many times must we tell you this. The current Tory government has an 80 seat majority. The cock ups they are guilty of are no one's fault but their own. What any other party of leader may or may not have done is completely irrelevant.

Nigel. Yes, I have seen and read the BBC news. I cannot find where it says Corbyn had been suspended for denying any findings.

Nothing I have get seen from reports of the EHRC findings seems to indicate the the Labour party has a worse antisemitism problem than anyone else. It does say that their reaction and procedures for handling antisemitism left a lot to be desired. Am I missing something?


29 Oct 20 - 12:00 PM (#4077273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel again

Specifics? or just random claims?

I refer you to my list of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM


29 Oct 20 - 12:01 PM (#4077274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

List=post


29 Oct 20 - 12:19 PM (#4077279)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

The grip on Starmer's short 'n' curlies is so over tightened now,
clumps are being pulled out at the roots..

Might as well just relinquish leadership of the party to margaret hodge and be done with it...


29 Oct 20 - 12:20 PM (#4077280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel again
Specifics? or just random claims?
I refer you to my list of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM


A link to a Guardian opinion piece?


29 Oct 20 - 12:21 PM (#4077281)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Or did you mean the two post list taken from someone else's Facebook rant (a few days earlier)?


29 Oct 20 - 12:36 PM (#4077286)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

No, Nigel, I said my post of 23 Oct 20 - 04:49 AM so which do you think I was referring to? It is a link and there is some opinion in it but if you would care to dispute any of the facts quoted by the author to support his opinion, please feel free.


29 Oct 20 - 12:37 PM (#4077287)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, 200!


29 Oct 20 - 12:46 PM (#4077291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The ECHR report into Labour

I have not read it yet, but will do as soon as possible.

As far as I am aware at the moment, Corbyn was not directly named in the report, but was suspended because in his remarks after the report was published he acknowledged anti-Semitism but said it was overstated. This fell foul of Starmer's remarks that those who “deny there is a problem are part of the problem … Those who pretend it is exaggerated or factional are part of the problem.”


29 Oct 20 - 12:58 PM (#4077294)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

That is the way I have seen it too DMcG.


29 Oct 20 - 01:06 PM (#4077296)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So how long before starmer starts suspending Jewish labour members,
who disagree with his unreasonable authoritarian definitions
of 'unacceptable anti-semitic behaviour'...??????


29 Oct 20 - 03:08 PM (#4077318)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Sounds like Starmer is winding up the lefties - I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


29 Oct 20 - 04:09 PM (#4077326)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Nothing sensible to add Bonzo?

Maybe you're just trying to fill the void left by the previous trolls. Be careful though and remember what happened to them.


29 Oct 20 - 04:34 PM (#4077331)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

” the appallingly-incompetent handling of COVID-19 by the Tory government": Up until the last week the Labour party supported all the actions, and didn't offer alternatives, so not just the "Tory government"

1) As has been pointed out elsewhere, the Tories have an 80-seat majority, so nothing Labour may have suggested has any relevance.

2) Neither you, nor I, have any information on the detail of discussions which took place between the Tory and Labour leadership regarding the handling of the COVID crisis, so your assertion that Labour offered no alternatives is mere supposition.

" the inclusion of the NHS in any trade-deal with the US, the reduction in our food standards that will also be a part of a UK-US trade-deal": As no UK/US trade deal has yet been agreed, this is mere supposition.”

There’s a great deal of evidence that these things are already, or are destined to be, part of the negotiations between the US and the UK. It’s been widely reported in the press and media, and commented on by members of the government. Easy to find unless, of course, one chooses to pretend it doesn’t exist.

"the skimming of billions of our tax-pounds in government contracts with companies who have neither the competence nor the assets to carry them out successfully, and who have not been required to subject themselves to a tendering procedure, appointments to senior positions of individuals linked to members of the government, with no proper recruitment procedures followed": Specifics? or just random claims?

Once again, numerous examples widely reported in the press and the media - easy to find unless, of course, one chooses not to see it.


30 Oct 20 - 03:26 AM (#4077385)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I still haven't found where the BBC, or any other news agency, have reported that "Jeremy Corbyn denies some of the findings" but I did find the following while I was looking

It (the EHRC) found Labour responsible for three breaches of the Equality Act:

Political interference in anti-Semitism complaints

Failure to provide adequate training to those handling anti-Semitism complaints

Harassment, including the use of anti-Semitic tropes and suggesting that complaints of anti-Semitism were fake or smears


So, to me, that suggests that the "Day of Shame" refers to how complaints were handled and harassment of those complaining rather than any institutional racism. Once the report has been fully digested I would be interested to see if it suggests that antisemitism in the Labour party is worse than in any other large organisation.


30 Oct 20 - 04:22 AM (#4077393)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Reading the report is on my to-do list for today, so I won't talk about it directly yet.

Politically, I am sure Boris Johnson and co are heaving a sigh of relief that Covid and Brexit have been driven out of the media. They will be aware how long the papers kept Labour and anti-Semitism in play last time and I am sure they hope they can do so again.

I don't think that will happen. For one thing, the US election will drive Labour off the media in a day or two at most. Then people care more about lockdowns and other things that affect them directly than Labour's troubles.   I am sure come the next PMQ or two Johnson will try to drag this into his answers at every opportunity, but I don't think it has the 'legs' it had before.   A huge lorry queue at Dover, if it happens, is simply more newsworthy.


30 Oct 20 - 04:39 AM (#4077395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks, DMcG. I look forward to your analysis.

Interesting quote from Caroline Waters, Interim Chair of the Equality and Human Rights Commission

Politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. There have been recent examples of behaviour from politicians of various parties that fall well below the standards we would expect. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. Our recommendations provide a foundation for leaders to make sure that they adhere to equality law and demonstrate their commitment to diversity and inclusion through their words and actions

Can we look forward to an enquiry into the "behaviour from politicians of various parties"?

I doubt it somehow.


30 Oct 20 - 05:34 AM (#4077401)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I have made a start on the document, but highly recommend everyone interested to read the forward and the executive summary. It is very clearly written and in plain English, and will not take very long. A few highlights:

But, more than that, politicians on all sides have a responsibility to set standards for our public life and to lead the way in challenging racism in all its forms. What politicians say and do matters. Their words and actions send a message about what is acceptable and what is not.
In recent times, there have been examples of behaviour that falls well below the standards we would expect, from politicians of various parties. While freedom of expression is essential to proper political debate, politicians must recognise the power of their language to sow division. The recommendations in this report provide a foundation to assist all politicians and political leaders in adhering to equality law, while still protecting freedom of expression and engaging in the robust and wide-ranging debate that is a core part of living in a democratic society

.. so yes, this is focused on Labour, but no one should interpret the issue as just about Labour. All parties have, at times, fallen short.


The issue of antisemitism within the Labour Party has been the subject of much scrutiny, most formally with three investigations in 2016, conducted by Baroness Chakrabarti, Baroness Royall and the Home Affairs Select Committee (HASC). Since then, the Party has failed to implement the recommendations made in these reports fully, or to take effective measures to stop antisemitic conduct from taking place. It is regrettable that many of the concerns we raise here were first raised in these reports over four years ago

.. some in the past have regarded Baroness Chakrabarti's report as a whitewash. That is not the ECHR view. But they do say its recommendations have not been implemented adequately.

This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw: • A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders. • In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

Although only a few cases are addressed in this report, there is much more. While some of these are definitely antisemtic, because the people concerned are not employed by Labour, Labour has no legal responsibility for them. That does not make the actions excusable: it is simply the Labour Party is not legally responsible.


30 Oct 20 - 05:52 AM (#4077405)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes, I got that far DMcG. It is also interesting to note that the commission does not address any actual complaints of antisemitism or uphold them. I would have thought that was its job. I do understand that it also looks at procedures for dealing with equality issues and that the Labour party is guilty of not dealing with the complaints properly. It is interesting to note that hours after the report's publication the CAA have issued a 70-odd page list of complaints, dating back many years, against members of the Labour party. All, it seems, from the left wing. I shall not speculate as to the motives behind this or the timing of it but let people draw their own conclusions.


30 Oct 20 - 06:19 AM (#4077412)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Who would you look to for legal advice?
1. A barrister who advanced far enough to become the Director of Public Prosecutions.
2. A bunch of disorganised hippies who couldn't win an election against a Sesame Street character who hid in a fridge.


30 Oct 20 - 06:27 AM (#4077413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

And that is relevant to the discussion because..?


30 Oct 20 - 06:57 AM (#4077418)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Very relevant - will hippy abbott be next!!!


30 Oct 20 - 07:28 AM (#4077425)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

When can we expect the results of the enquiry into this Unholy alliance?

I'll not hold my breath.


30 Oct 20 - 08:29 AM (#4077433)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

OK, I have eventually got round to finishing the document - it did have to fit in with other things I had to do, you know!

One of the things that I got out of it which doesn't seem to be coming across as much in the media it is rather less about what the level of anti-Semitism in the Labour party is, as the lack of a clear mechanism to decide and then deal with it. The media is very much about how much anti-Semitism there is or is not in the Labour party, the rows between Starmer and Corbyn, Hodge, Abbott and others. On my reading, that is not really what the report is about at all.   It is much more what are the procedures in place to identify anti-Semitism in the first place (including how clear is the definition, and why, for example, no definition is in the Labour Rule book so all members can know it.) Once a possible anti-Semitic case is identified, how well-defined is the process to handle it, and whether this process is truly independent, or is it subject to political interference.

So for example, they point out the training given to people to identify anti-Semitism is 'academic, not practical.' I presume that means there insufficient case studies where the real world complexities can be seen.   Another example that worries the authors are comments from the Leaders office whether they think an act serious enough to investigate which may override the formal process (and there are examples where it expressed a view both against and in favour of proceeding.) Other Leader's Office comments referred to the timing of the investigations.

In the political world, the temptation to interfere in that way will inevitably be huge. The report is quite clear it is always unacceptable - the procedures must be followed rigorously and independently. It is interesting to notice yesterday Starmer has clearly taken this on board. When the press pressured him to say Corbyn must be suspected, he followed the report to not express a view. Later, when Corbyn had been suspended he stressed that it was the formal processes that suspended Corbyn and he supported both their right to make the decision and the decision itself. Their remains some doubt about the exact rules under which Corbyn was suspended, but it is not Starmer's responsibility to say.
Yet another thing they were concerned about was the appointment of Thomas Gardiner from the Labour leader's office into the body responsible for initial investigations. The at the very least ran the risk of political interference and in their words "undermined confidence in the complaint handling process and, in particular, its independence."


In my opinion, it is a well written report and the recommendations it makes are both sensible and can be implemented in practice in a comparatively short time.   Labour has a legal responsibility to state its plans for addressing the points within a few weeks, and I have little doubt that it will confirm its intentions to fully adopt them.

I also have little doubt the Tories will keep poking at this particular hornets nest, as will some of Corbyn's backers.


30 Oct 20 - 12:47 PM (#4077466)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks for a good synopsis DMcG. It does seem to confirm the conclusions I drew from the "front page". Labour did have problems with handling antisemitism complaints but as for antisemitism itself it seems that the commission have either not investigated that or not found anything to worry them.


30 Oct 20 - 01:07 PM (#4077472)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I would not go quite that far, Dave. They did identify a few cases and said this was "the tip of the iceberg" - but most of the other 18(?) cases they looked at in detail were by people that the Labour Party did not have legal responsibility for, or it was unclear what capacity these people were speaking in. Having said that, they also stressed other parties had similar issues.

I put the question mark after the 18 because that figure was mentioned but there are other complaints and I would need to double check the status of these 18.

The cases that they referenced, though, were often to illustrate where the process had fallen short.


30 Oct 20 - 02:00 PM (#4077478)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I find that an official body suggesting it is the tip of the iceberg without going into detail quite alarming. It sounds like a Daily Heil headline.


30 Oct 20 - 02:19 PM (#4077483)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The exact quote is here:
This is by no means the full extent of the issues we identified within the files in our sample; it represents the tip of the iceberg. We also saw:
• A further 18 ‘borderline’ cases. In these cases, there was not enough evidence to conclude that the Labour Party was legally responsible for the conduct of the individual. These were people such as local councillors, local election candidates and Constituency Labour Party office holders.
• In many more files, evidence of antisemitic conduct by an ‘ordinary’ member of the Labour Party. These members did not hold any office or role, therefore the Labour Party could not be held directly responsible for their conduct under the Equality Act 2010.

In light of our position as a regulator, we only made findings of unlawful conduct in cases that were sufficiently clear-cut, in Equality Act 2010 and Human Rights Act 1998 terms. We explain this in Chapter 3


So they saw cases, but restricted themselves to ones that were 'clear cut' and for which the party was legally responsible.


30 Oct 20 - 02:36 PM (#4077486)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The problem is that they did concern themselves with the other cases as they went ahead and reported them. They are either significant, in which case they need to detail them, or they are not significant, in which case don't report them.


30 Oct 20 - 07:11 PM (#4077516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Reports are coming in of a strict national lockdown to be announced on Monday, effective from Wednesday.

If so, I think Labour and the ECHR is going to disappear from the front pages even faster than I predicted, and Johnson would be well advised to leave it out of PMQs unless he really wants to look detached from people's concerns.


31 Oct 20 - 03:48 AM (#4077553)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I think you are right DMcG. "Look! Labour antisemitism!" was already wearing thin as a distraction. By the side of Boris's mis-management of the virus it just sounds stupid. Of course some people will still be fooled . As witnessed here.


31 Oct 20 - 05:08 AM (#4077558)
Subject: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: The Sandman

I have resigned membership from the labour party.
My Stepmother was jewish , her parents escaped from nazi germany in 1936. I concur With CORBYN about exagerration


31 Oct 20 - 05:16 AM (#4077559)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4

Just wondering if you are playing into the hands of the right wing here, and is getting left leaning members to resign is all part of the scheme .

It's obviously a very personal decision but I've decided to stay in the party and watch what happens.

My opinion of Starmer btw is that he is just Ed Miliband in a more expensive suit.


31 Oct 20 - 06:12 AM (#4077563)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Steve Shaw

Absolutely with you there, Acorn.


31 Oct 20 - 06:28 AM (#4077566)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Mr Red

I predicted Corbyn would be a latter-day Michael Foot. And apart from his concentration on Arab/Muslim issues at the expense of Jewish ones it was an apt analogue.

Sacking him is putting out a message. Unfortunately, the message is not in Starmer's hands. It is in the minds of Corbynites. Was it ever thus?

Frank Field, at least, showed contrition over his championing of an underdog. Sometimes, they are underdogs for a reason. History has spoken. Twice, resoundingly. And do we listen?

FWIW Frank Field would have made a better figurehead for the party. But he maybe realised his skills lay elsewhere.
On the basis of one TV clip I thought Andy Burnham would have made a good head honcho, purely from his screen presence, but recent events have only confirmed my opinion. Cursory as it is. Maybe he is eyeing the top of the greasy pole.
And they picked the wrong Milliband IMNSHO.


31 Oct 20 - 06:35 AM (#4077568)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Bonzo3legs

I laugh!!!!!!!!!!!!!


31 Oct 20 - 06:44 AM (#4077571)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Long Firm Freddie

The report (all 130 pages) is online here:

Report

LFF


31 Oct 20 - 06:56 AM (#4077574)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman

It gives me no pleasure to say it, but the LP are fast becoming the ‘Jeremy Kyle Party’ - behaving exactly like the ‘Waynes and Waynettas’ who go on that god-forsaken waste of broadcasting-time to have their spitting, swearing, handbags-at-twenty-paces fights in full view of anyone and everyone who cares to tune in. Just one more factor in ensuring their own un-electability.

When will they take a leaf from the Tories’ book, and understand the importance of The Golden Rule - ‘Have your fights in private, but present a united front to the public’? I have no problem with internal differences in the party being argued and debated, but there’s a time and place for it, and in public in the press and on prime time TV aren’t it.

Very, very sad but absolutely the truth.


31 Oct 20 - 07:31 AM (#4077576)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Dave the Gnome

UK politics, surely.


31 Oct 20 - 07:34 AM (#4077577)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Acorn4

I would agree with the above and unfortunately "Left Unity" seems to be an oxymoron.


31 Oct 20 - 07:40 AM (#4077579)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman

”UK politics, surely.”

I’d agree with that, Dave. I was wondering why someone opened a separate thread - perhaps a kind Mod might combine it with the main U.K. Politics thread?


31 Oct 20 - 07:41 AM (#4077580)
Subject: RE: BS: Corbyn suspension
From: Backwoodsman

Similarly the ‘Britain and its fish’ thread (opened by the same person as this one)?


31 Oct 20 - 02:01 PM (#4077628)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Of course to the retired and not working, lockdown will make little difference, but to the retired and still working like myself of course, it will make some difference.


31 Oct 20 - 02:16 PM (#4077630)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.

To those who believed December was the end of the Labour party. How do you rate your lots chances after this?


31 Oct 20 - 03:50 PM (#4077639)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Dave, odds on the Tories will survive because, as I pointed out above, they stick together in public even when they’re in the shit and squabbling like a troop of monkeys in private.

Labour, however, kick each other’s bollocks very publicly. If they split, and I reckon that’s a very strong possibility, we’re bolloxed - Tory governments for ever.


31 Oct 20 - 04:36 PM (#4077647)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

So Bozzer, after ignoring his scientific advisers for weeks, has now decided we need a lockdown and released the news via an unknown leak. Hmmmm. Good timing Bozzer. Wait until the furlough scheme finishes. Don't lock schools and universities down. Cock things up again. Cause more deaths.
In case you haven't seen the news yet, the "furlough" scheme has been extended.
And, once again, the government is not causing deaths. That is the virus. The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths in order to prevent the NHS from being overwhelmed.


31 Oct 20 - 05:45 PM (#4077653)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The worst that can be laid at the door of the government is a failure to prevent deaths. And even that is arguable. If the virus is going to be endemic then the best the government can do is to delay some of the deaths 
I am not sure I would agree there, Nigel, unless you are invoking the truism that we will all die eventually. Every death delayed is potentially a life saved when we eventually get a vaccine. So I would argue that not overwhelming the NHS is not an ambitious enough target. You should be aiming to have the level low enough that most non-covid NHS treatments can continue and the number who die is as low as possible while we await a vaccine.

And actually the 'Whack-a-mole' strategy could have done that if it was not simply used as an amusing quip. It is essentially what New Zealand has done: get the number of cases really low, then put as many resources as you can muster into a serious detect, test, trace and isolate effort. Testing is irrelevant with effective isolation so this concentration on numbers of tests without the rest is pointless.


31 Oct 20 - 05:51 PM (#4077654)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

... irrelevant without a....


31 Oct 20 - 06:02 PM (#4077655)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Nigel Parsons - they have got the hump because their beloved terrorist hugging Corbyn has been suspendered from the labour party!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


31 Oct 20 - 06:23 PM (#4077657)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Not me...


31 Oct 20 - 06:24 PM (#4077658)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

‘Suspendered’? Oooohh Matron! :-)


31 Oct 20 - 06:43 PM (#4077662)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

You really are desperate to get people to look the other way aren't you Bonzo. Trouble is it stopped working once Boris got what he wanted. No one is interested now that they know they backed the wrong horse. Boris is digging his own grave. As well as thousands of others, killing the economy and burying the last shreds of respect England had.


01 Nov 20 - 03:41 AM (#4077693)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

before systems can change people have to change, some of the posters should take a good look at themselves


01 Nov 20 - 03:59 AM (#4077698)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

No Dave the Gnome, I like fun!!!!!!!!!!


01 Nov 20 - 04:27 AM (#4077700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Dave, I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year.

But people keep telling me, “Boris is a great bloke and he’s doing a brilliant job!”.


01 Nov 20 - 05:05 AM (#4077705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Well Bonzo, if your idea of fun is posting inane comments on an obscure forum there isn't really much hope for you is there.


01 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM (#4077708)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Bonzo , i admire your love of dogs ,but that is the best that i can say


01 Nov 20 - 05:52 AM (#4077712)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

My oft-repeated belief is that “anyone who loves dogs can’t be all bad”, but I’m prepared to make an exception...


01 Nov 20 - 06:14 AM (#4077714)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

now now do not be dogmatic.


01 Nov 20 - 09:15 AM (#4077726)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"I’m convinced the Tories are actually using COVID, and manipulating the crisis, as a means of distracting the public’s attention away from the disaster (for most of us ordinary Joes and Janes - Johnson and his cronies themselves will do very well from it) of the crash-out, no-EU-trade-deal Brexit they’re heading us for at the end of the year."

I think it's that but much more as well. Who'd have thought a year ago that a government in a democracy could ORDER people to stay at home almost at the drop of a hat, or tell us that we can't have our families to stay over, or force us to wear masks? Once these edicts are enforced it makes it far easier for the government to do things like it again, under who-knows-what circumstances in the future. It isn't just a brexit diversion, it's a power-grab, and it's all the more frightening when you consider who it is who's grabbing the power.


01 Nov 20 - 12:30 PM (#4077754)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’m sure you make a very valid point, Steve. Nothing this bunch of nasty, greedy, lying crooks do surprises me any more.


01 Nov 20 - 02:21 PM (#4077770)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I am still inclined to suspect extremist ideological factions of the tories
are determined to exploit covid as an opportunist covert lethal weapon,
targeting the teaching profession...


05 Nov 20 - 06:44 PM (#4078388)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

Especially in reference to the Corbyn/Foot analogy I have long been saying "History repeats itself, it has to because no one is listening.

And that applies on grander scales - if you don't like horror stories don't read this prediction History repeats itself. That’s bad news for the 2020s - the article is upbeat only in that we can solve the impending problem "if we choose".

But as with the LP - ya can't solve problems while ya shouting at each other over how to solve the problem. The LP's problem being - how to get to be in a position of power.


06 Nov 20 - 02:00 AM (#4078424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

What the ‘Corbyn/Foot Analogy’ demonstrates, for those willing to look, listen, and learn, is that the UK does not have, and never has had, a natural inclination towards being or becoming a Socialist State. At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre, and no amount of stamping their feet, throwing themselves on the floor, and thcweaming and thcweaming until they’re sick by the Corbyn-supporters will change that.

Even Churchill acknowledged that “Jaw-jaw is better than war-war”. Why can’t the LP get their heads around that simple fact too?


06 Nov 20 - 02:26 AM (#4078426)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

politicians are puppets their power is limited the real power is with multi national coporations, here is asong by ma reynolds
.Come sit down beside me before the big T.V.
And watch the funny pictures they have there to look at,
Shampoo for your hair and the last polar bear,
And the man on the moon who was walking around
Then left, leaving junk on the once virgin ground.

There's old timey movies with old fashioned dresses,
The kidnap of babies and other such messes,
There's football and baseball and guys selling cars,
And then there's The Man in the Mask.

Chorus:
They say it's his face, but I just can't believe it.
It looks like a mask that I saw in the store.
It talks with deep feeling about ending some war
And stopping inflation, and it's so fantastic,
You'll cry while you're laughing, and roll on the floor.

Every four years he puts a new mask on.
Each one is worse than the one he had before,
But the words are the same and the same earnest manner,
About ending inflation and stopping the war.

The sponsors paid out a million of millions
To get him up there with his magic routine,
But it's really a bargain, 'cause there's such a margin
In war and inflation and the big T.V. screen
That gives us The Man in the Mask.


11 Nov 20 - 04:33 AM (#4079136)
Subject: BS: lord Kilclooney
From: The Sandman

Earlier this week, Lord Kilclooney - a Member of the House of Lords - posted a message on his social media that has been roundly slammed as racist. In a series of messages about US Vice President-elect Kamala Harris, he demanded to know what happens if “the Indian” becomes president.

Despite the outrage his message caused, he has refused to recognise the damage it did. He even defended himself by saying that, as a landlord, he has Indian tenants (!). Harris’ election as Vice-President was a historic victory, but Lord Kilclooney’s comments have made headlines across the world - sending a dangerous and false message of the kind of country we are.

Frustratingly, he’s got form for this. He tweeted something similar about Irish Taoiseach Leo Varadkar in 2018, and has also been slammed for similarly racist messages about cricketer Moeen Ali.

That’s why Act Now, a campaigning organisation in Northern Ireland, has launched a petition - to show that these are not our values and we won’t tolerate him acting this way in our name.


12 Nov 20 - 03:48 AM (#4079322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Looks like the lovely Tories are at it again - employing the language of the Alt-Right movement in the US, invoking the expression ‘Cultural Marxism’, described as ‘a conspiracy theory with an anti-Semitic twist’, and protesting against the opening-up of the many untold truths lurking in the darker recesses of our cultural history.

I wonder when the Daily Fail, the Scum, and the Ex-Press will begin a barrage of accusations of ‘anti-semitism’ against them?

I won’t hold my breath.


12 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM (#4079325)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

the uk and the irish governments should introduce free school milk and free school dinners, children should not have to go to school hungry. well done rashford.


12 Nov 20 - 04:13 AM (#4079328)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

At best, as a nation, we waver between Centre and Slightly Left of Centre,

But we waver ever more. Steadfastly refusing to sit the fence - Aren't We?
In cosmic terms (Donuel help me out here) the LibDems are an unstable Lagrange Point - very apt, "near two large bodies circling each other".


12 Nov 20 - 05:18 AM (#4079333)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)


13 Nov 20 - 02:23 AM (#4079427)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

There are rumours of Dominic Cummings leaving by Christmas 2020.

I am fairly sure, though not 100%, that several years ago there was talk of him staying until Brexit was through. If so, disappearing from the scene just before the end of transition would fit precisely with that plan. There have, however, been a long series of 'Cummings is about to go' stories every six months or so since the 2016 vote. He was leaving for health reasons, then only staying to see Boris become PM, then Boris get elected, and so on, so this could well be another of those. On the other hand he is a handy recipient for the Cabinet to blame for any of the decisions over the last year that did not work out as they wanted.

we will see. With luck, if he goes, the disruptive plans he has initiated for pretty much all governmental bodies will go with him.


13 Nov 20 - 03:40 AM (#4079431)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I think he is leaving for a job with Donald Trump :- D


13 Nov 20 - 05:35 AM (#4079440)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

If you don't want children to go to school hungry, it's free school breakfasts you should be arguing for... ;-)
Surely then they would still be "Going to school hungry" unless they had a breakfast at home first.

As I understood it, school dinners (during term time) were to keep the children going through the afternoon without needing to go home for lunch. This makes the job easier for teachers (by reducing the to and fro, and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day) and allows for 'free school meals' for those who can't afford them. But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not.


13 Nov 20 - 06:18 AM (#4079443)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Touché, Nigel. I consider myself to have been out-nitpicked!

In spite of my socialist inclinations, I think that certain benefits should be available to all, even the richest, means-testing set aside, as that makes us all stakeholders in the state. Even the top billionaire gets free NHS healthcare at the point of access. Everyone gets the same tax-free allowance up to a handsome £100,000 income a year before the means-testing kicks in. Every child is entitled to free state education. I think that free school meals should be universal too. We can all argue about the feckless and undeserving poor, etc., but taxpayers paying for school meals is as chicken feed next to the indulgently-low top tax rates for big earners and the fact that we turn a blind eye to tax avoidance/evasion. A few years ago I seem to remember reading that, via the latter, we let off the mega-rich to the tune of around a hundred billion a year.


13 Nov 20 - 07:18 AM (#4079453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I think more of the feckless and undeserving rich (not those who make their income through their own talents and dedication, but those who grow their wealth through exploiting other peoples' labours. Those who want more than their entitlement (health, education, 'a place a live'), and resent having to continue to pay their share towards universal entitlement. I know a place to live is not included, but I also remember the first time I went to Poland, and having difficultly in explaining the concept of homelessness.


13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM (#4079454)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"and avoiding a need to increase the length of the school day"

Yes.. teachers do need a few hours off work to get some sleep at night...

My wife's school day ends when she switches her laptop and mobile phone off
minutes before she goes upstairs to bed...

.. if she can avoid restless nights worrying about the next day's problems at school...

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...


13 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM (#4079456)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I paraphrase this from something I say yesterday.

I breaks the heart of a socialist to know that people are going hungry so that socialist will gladly feed 100 people, even knowing that 5 of them don't deserve it.

It breaks the heart of a capitalist to know that someone is getting something they don't deserve so that capitalist will happily let 100 people starve rather than have 5 get something they are not entitled to.

Yes, Nigel, I know you will point something out but it sums up attitudes nicely.


13 Nov 20 - 08:25 AM (#4079458)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Millions of tory voting furloughed employees now have the luxury
of lots more free time at home,
to get on social media to moan about scroungers on benefits...


13 Nov 20 - 08:47 AM (#4079459)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

PFR :-D


13 Nov 20 - 12:40 PM (#4079484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

"But it is a simple start to a 'nanny state'. The responsibility for feeding the children should rest with the parent(s). Are those suggesting 'free' school meals during holidays planning to reduce child benefit/universal credit accordingly? Probably not."

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

Just as an aside, my school was a 20 minute journey by bus from my home, longer because I walked. So add two 20 minute journeys (presuming the bus timetable fell just right) that would allow me just 20 minute to prepare and consume a meal, and wash the pots I should add.

The expression "give your head a shake" comes to mind.


13 Nov 20 - 12:44 PM (#4079485)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: punkfolkrocker - PM
Date: 13 Nov 20 - 07:40 AM

Nigel - Yes, those lazy lefty teachers only want to feed kids in school at taxpayers expense,
so they can have an easier life skiving hard graft...


That may be what you think, but it's not what I said.


13 Nov 20 - 12:47 PM (#4079486)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

It's outrageous giving the poor scum children taxpayer funded free food.

The dirty little oiks will only trade it for drugs and knives...


13 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM (#4079487)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Abject nonsense Nigel and you know it. I am presuming you and I are of a similar age. We would also presume we both got "free" school meals paid for by the tax-payer (of which both my parents were numbered.) Every child of my acquaintance got "free" school meals back in the 60's and early 70's.

I'm amazed that every child of your acquaintance got free school meals. How would you even know? I remember having to take in 'dinner money' once a week.
And if both your parents were tax-payers I'm surprised that you got free school meals.


13 Nov 20 - 12:55 PM (#4079489)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - you might not have typed those exact words, but...



What a day, eh..

The ripper and cummings.. which will be most missed...???


13 Nov 20 - 01:12 PM (#4079494)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

The mucking out of the stables. quote Much as i dislike cummings your remark comparing him to the ripper is an insult to the yorkshire rippers victims and tasteless.


13 Nov 20 - 01:17 PM (#4079496)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I didn't read the remark as comparing the two.


13 Nov 20 - 01:27 PM (#4079499)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - Yes.. maybe, but the ripper, as evil as he was, payed for his crimes..

Cummings is still free at large, and will ultimately be responsible
for destroying countless more lives than sutcliffe ever could...


[..and Dick, btw.. I'm in a generous mood.
I gave you an easy one to have a go at me about..]


15 Nov 20 - 08:11 AM (#4079707)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

The Guardian’s view - absolutely spot-on as always - of the Cummings and goings at 10, Downing Street. It’ll be interesting to see how Dumber gets on without Dom telling him what to do.


16 Nov 20 - 03:08 AM (#4079780)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

how about postponing brexit untilcovid vaccines have been tried and tested and are successful, we now have boris going down with it again.


16 Nov 20 - 03:24 AM (#4079785)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Not an option, Sandman, I am afraid. Legally, Brexit happened in January. We are no longer members of the EU. The transition period end in December and any extension had to be requested by in June or July. In any case, from a UK perspective, the end of transition date is written in primary legislation and so it would need an act of Parliament to alter it.

Here is a clipping of David Davis from the Express in Jan 2019:
Brexiteer Mr Davis told BBC Today that the EU was "testing the mettle of the British Government. The government is running out the timetable, running out the clock but actually, there are now already signs that the EU knows it needs a deal and it will come back."

He continued: "The simple truth is that they will hold fast to their line - this is the traditional approach of the European Commission, the European Union.

"They will hold fast to their line to the last possible minute and then, if we hold fast to our line, then they will actually come back and renegotiate."


As far as I can see, the entire UK strategy has been what Game Theory refers to as 'Chicken'.   The claim is that all we have to do is stick to whatever we want firmly enough and the EU will concede in the last minute. We still seem to be playing the game today in what could be the last week for negotiations.

The problem, of course, is that if neither side gives up, you have an almighty head-on crash as both sides lose out. Which looks as if it is where we are heading. The sensible thing is to change course, obviously, but that is seen as losing, and neither player wants that.

There are a lot of mathematical Games in Game Theory. It is typical we took the highest risk one.


16 Nov 20 - 04:46 AM (#4079793)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

The EU are not subject to UK law, so if the EU were to decide to stop victimising the majority of the UK population, they could easily extend transition indefinitely until the UK rejoins the EU. he only reason for not doing so would be pure spite towards those of us who are pro-EU/European. Of course we don't know what dark money is influencing the other 27 heads of state to make them victimise us.


17 Nov 20 - 07:35 AM (#4079937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I don't get your meaning SPB. Sorry :-(

In what way is the EU "victimising the majority of the UK population"?


17 Nov 20 - 04:18 PM (#4079983)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

After isolating with his dog, Johnson has now tested positive for kennel cough!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


17 Nov 20 - 04:55 PM (#4079991)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

bonzo when you are in a hole stop dogging


17 Nov 20 - 06:43 PM (#4080006)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I'm rip-roaring incandescent about what I've just watched on Newsnight. Kirsty Wark interviewed Jenny Manson (Jewish Voice for Labour and a Corbyn supporter) and then, separately, Louise Ellman (ex-Labour MP and ex-party member and implacable Corbyn opponent), following Jeremy Corbyn's reinstatement to the party. Jenny Manson was constantly interrupted and harried by Wark and was scarcely able to get any point across. Then Louise Ellman was treated gently and politely, almost diffidently, and was allowed to speak at length with hardly any interrupting at all. Blatant bias and well below the standard we should expect from BBC presenters.

I've complained to the Beeb...


17 Nov 20 - 06:48 PM (#4080007)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

you should have heard the venomous rant BBC news allowed marie van der zyl...

Her face was a portrait of fanatical hatred...


17 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM (#4080008)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I think I recorded it.
But Sky+ boxes make it impossible to share recorded files...


17 Nov 20 - 07:01 PM (#4080010)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I missed that: was it tonight and approx how far in? I have iPlayer...
.


17 Nov 20 - 07:08 PM (#4080011)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

BBC News channel

20:15 - 20:25

Wiki: van der zyl

"She is a self-described "fighter" and takes as a compliment the comparison that "the only difference between me and a Rottweiler
is that a Rottweiler eventually lets go".[8]

Her visits to her grandparents gave her, she says, "a great passion for Israel"[1]
and she believes that the Board exists "to promote a sympathetic understanding of Israel."[3]
She has pledged to "defend Israel’s legitimacy and its centrality to Jewish identity".[9]
"


17 Nov 20 - 08:20 PM (#4080012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Grr. Beeb won't let me go that far back. Maybe it's somewhere else and I'll keep looking. Though trying to find her saying anything is a form of sado-masochism...


18 Nov 20 - 03:58 AM (#4080029)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The reinstatement of Corbyn has put Starmer into a very difficult position. The main finding of the ECHR report was that the leadership should not be interfering in the investigations and decisions of the formal complaints procedure. So if Starmer does do anything about the reinstatement he is going against the report himself. Yet you can bet that there will be no end of commentary saying 'Starmer should do this, or that'.   So the NEC has brought Labour anti-Semitism back central stage when all our focus should be the virus and Brexit. It is an utter gift to Johnson in the midst of his woes and damaging to the country as a whole because it is a distraction from those critical concerns.


18 Nov 20 - 04:30 AM (#4080038)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

2 what ifs..

What if Starmer had given Corbyn gentle behind the scenes persuasion
to retire with dignity...???

or..

What if Corbyn had been diplomatically booted up to the Lords...???



Nah.. Corbyns vindictive enemies have too tight a grip on Starmer's
short n curlies..

They'll only settle for Corbyn's head on a pike...


18 Nov 20 - 06:36 AM (#4080045)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

This antisemitism thing isn't going away, ever. The pro-Israel "left" (term used advisedly) lobby in this country (which includes, among many others, those arseholes such as Hodge, Berger, Smeeth, Mann and Ellman and a whole cabal of "Labour Friends of Israel" MPs), along with the Board Of Deputies, will not rest until they have turned Starmer into a led-by-the-nose poodle who auto-condemns any and all criticism of the Israeli regime. So far, he has utterly failed to point out to them and the rest of us that antisemitism (as vehemently opposed to anti-Netanyahu-ism) is a curse that RUNS THROUGH THE WHOLE OF SOCIETY, and that the illegitimate obsessive focus on Labour by these bloody control freaks (a) does nothing to solve the wider issues surrounding racism in this country, (b) will simply perpetuate the reign of right-wing, populist and, yes, RACIST Tories, who are far worse than Labour in almost every regard when it comes to racism. Why, in a poll a couple of years ago it was found that 48% of Tory voters actually characterised themselves as racist, fer chrissake. Anyone for flag-waving piccaninnies? Watermelon smiles? Bank robbers? Letterboxes?

Led-by-the-nose is right. He needs to tell the Manns, Ellmans and the rest to mind their own bloody business and look to the deficiencies and dishonesty of their own side. As for the Board Of Deputies, you are unelected. Enjoy your right to free speech but don't be surprised when we bite back to tell you how your stance serves to strengthen a bellicose regime that represses and discriminates against the Palestinian minority and that is a perpetual running sore in the Middle East. Talk about blind in one eye. That's been known to be called bigotry.

Just flashed up as I was typing this that it's been edicted that Jeremy can't sit as a Labour MP. There'll be a lot of gleeful hand-rubbing going on. What a muddle. What a gift.


19 Nov 20 - 04:35 AM (#4080181)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

starmer is a political idiot. Corbyn can stand at the next election as an independent and win the seat one less seat for labour. the man starmer is as thick as two short planks


19 Nov 20 - 05:04 AM (#4080184)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I imagine his judgement is that he will win more seats elsewhere. He may be right or wrong, but it is not an idiotic position in itself.

More serious, in that respect, are the 28 Labour MPs demanding Corbyn's reinstatement. If a substantial number of these resign the whip - or a similar number resign if Starmer does reinstate Corbyn - then you are not talking of gaining one seat to replace Corbyn's, but perhaps ten that need to be replaced. That's a much higher barrier to surmount.


19 Nov 20 - 05:32 AM (#4080185)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

he is politically idiotic ,corbyn will win his own seat no problem at next election, in the meantime he is splitting the labour party further


19 Nov 20 - 07:19 AM (#4080196)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Politically idiotic is strong words, but I think I agree. Read again the words that Corbyn uttered that got him suspended. He did not deny antisemitism, he didn't say that nothing should be done, he expressed his valid view mildly. No hate speech, just free speech from an MP who no longer held a position in the party. I could just about agree that he'd have been tactically better to keep it zipped at that time, but hey ho, at least he's unspun. He was pounced on for that by a "leader" who was looking fearfully over his shoulder at the pro-Israel lobby (NOT the anti-antisemitism lobby in m'humble). So now he's got himself into this utterly predictable tangle. Jeremy Corbyn looks, by streets, to be the most dignified person in the middle of all this at present. I wonder who will be the first to start baying that 28 antisemite MPs have called for Corbyn to be reinstated. Will it be the Mail or the Board Of Deputies? Or let's get Margaret Hodge to say it to Kirsty on Newsnight!


19 Nov 20 - 07:38 AM (#4080202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

It is just my opinion, naturally, but I think the NEC created the split by reinstating Corbyn. At that point Starmer had a choice of exactly what kind of split, but a split- or at least a major row - was unavoidable.

For my money, the best solution would have been to draft the new disciplinary procedure, ideally getting the ECHR to sign it off, and then review Corbyn's position under the new system. Then he either gets fully brought back in, including the whip, or he stays out, rather than this half and half mixture.


19 Nov 20 - 08:13 AM (#4080207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'll still continue futiley voting Labour,
for lack of a better alternative to never voting at all...

"Labour - The Hopeles Party for Hope"...


19 Nov 20 - 08:18 AM (#4080208)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"s"..

.there it is.. found the litle buger..

I mentioned earlier in the wek
that my keyboard has developed a problem
with double leters...


19 Nov 20 - 08:57 AM (#4080213)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I get totally fed up with factional foot stomping. it is pathetic when the factions threaten to inflict tory vermin on us until they get their way. They are not labour, they are not socialist because all they care about is their own faction having power and authority and they don't give a toss about labour and socialist values.

I was not a supporter of the previous Labour leadership, but I still gave up my time and energy to campaign on behalf of the labour party - and locally we have won every election: Council, GLA, London Mayor, local MP, even the local referendum vote as it was a democratic vote.

Now that leadership has changed as a result of another demographic vote, those who call themselves socialist are throwing their toys out of the pram and almost from day one have proved that they have no loyalty to the labour party at all as all they are interested in is personal power and not giving a toss about our society.

If factional in-fighting screws up the 2024 election, the tories MUST not be allowed to retain power.


19 Nov 20 - 09:24 AM (#4080221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well in my view an injustice was done to Jeremy Corbyn when he was suspended. Of course, he provided ammunition when he spoke out so quickly in the terms he used, but I repeat: he did not deny antisemitism, he spoke out against antisemitism, he did not say that nothing should be done and what he said was miles away from hate speech. I'll tell you summat for nowt: all through the seventies I was, for my sins, a hard-left trade union activist in the East End of London at a time when trade unions were perceived, incorrectly of course, as having too much clout, to be feared (cheers, media). What I learned then was that if you put two lefties together in a room, there will soon be a split. What I also learned is that all the disingenuous pleading for unity came from the more right-wing faction, every time. And what they really meant, every time, was "drop the argument and do things our way." It doesn't and shouldn't work. It's unprincipled for a start. The right in the Labour Party, go as far back as you like, not only disrespects the true socialism of the left ("because it's bad tactics") but routinely tries to sideline it. As in any political party, the quest for seniority provides grave danger of seeding careerism. Jeremy was a shining example of a principled man who shunned that. Keir has fallen for it hook, line and sinker. The only way he can see his ambition sustained is by ditching principle and pandering, pathetically, to the attack dogs behind his back whose antennae for mostly fake antisemitism are sharply tuned.


19 Nov 20 - 11:38 AM (#4080245)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Great post SPB-Cooperator, thanks for that. Party before Personalities - the Golden Rule, understood perfectly by the Tories but not, apparently, by a substantial number of members of the Labour Party.

Get ready for permanent Tory rule.


19 Nov 20 - 12:51 PM (#4080257)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way." A party leadership that thinks that way will forever be the leadership of a split party. Realpolitik.


19 Nov 20 - 01:07 PM (#4080259)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Who'l last longer as leader of their parties, boris or starmer...???


19 Nov 20 - 01:22 PM (#4080264)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I left the Labour party in the late 80's. Our branch had selected a candidate to be our prospective MP after a hustings meeting. We were very happy with the way she, above the other candidates, had presented herself.

At our next branch meeting 4 guys arrived from Central office dressed in Crombie's and red scarfs and told us we couldn't have her as our candidate and we should now select another woman who we didn't know, had never met, had never spoken to and who as we found out had never even visited the town she was picked to represent.

We were disgusted at their attitude and several of us resigned on the night, and others resigned later.


19 Nov 20 - 02:47 PM (#4080268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I would have told them to fuck off!!!


19 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM (#4080271)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

bonz - since of late you sem to be drifting further left in some of your posts.
Maybe time for you to aceopt it and join Labour.

There's not enough honest direct resorts to saying "fuck off!!!" in the party.


19 Nov 20 - 03:05 PM (#4080273)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”But as I say, the right have this habit of forever saying "Let's have unity and let's have it by doing things totally our way."

First of all, I’m not ‘the Right’ Steve, I’m Centre-Left. And it’s the Left who are wanting it ‘totally their way’ judging by the evidence here. People like me are saying, “Stop fighting each other, find centre-ground, and DO YOUR JOB which, you Corbynistas seem to have forgotten, is to FIGHT THE TORY GOVERNMENT.

Party members don’t elect Governments, the voting public do that and, in 2019, the voting public told Corbyn resoundingly to Fuck Off. Anyone with an ounce of dignity and self-respect who had led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory - a defeat by the weakest Tory party led by the weakest Tory leader in living memory and with nothing to offer but a one-issue manifesto - would need no ‘gentle behind the scenes persuasion to retire’. Rather than hanging around shit-stirring he’d have been compelled by his own sense of shame to do it of his own volition the day after the election.

I repeat, as I’ve repeated many times - the Party is far, far bigger than any individual, including Corbyn, and members should get their intransigent heads around that unarguable fact, unite behind the current leader, who was democratically elected by those same members, stop wasting the votes of those of us who demonstrated our trust in Labour at the GE and who were failed disastrously, and start working to free the nation from this self-serving, shameless, shameful bunch of Tory rogues currently raping the United Kingdom.

Until that begins to happen, the LP exists for no reason other than to stimulate its members’ vulgar public display of political onanism.


19 Nov 20 - 03:24 PM (#4080277)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'd have thought starmer would have suficient inteligence not to make such a political martyr of Corbyn..

.. unles.. he's doing it deliberately as part of a calculated strategy
to incite mas constructive dismisal from the leftiest members...???


19 Nov 20 - 04:07 PM (#4080281)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Corbyn is making a martyr of himself.


19 Nov 20 - 06:50 PM (#4080291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well, John. Starmer, McCluskey, Hodge, Lansman, Ellman and the Board Of Deputies are all making a hell of a lot of noise. One person who isn't making a noise is Jeremy Corbyn. Hardly the martyr style, that, is it? And let me just put this to you. Read the words that Jeremy Corbyn uttered in reaction to the report that basically damned him. Did he deny antisemitism? No he didn't. Did he say that nothing needed to be done? No he didn't. Did he speak intemperately and with hatred? No he didn't. He expressed some disagreement, in measured terms in my opinion, of a report that he regarded had unfairly excoriated him. So was that sufficient to suspend him? If you say no, though he was unwise to open his mouth at that time, your response by any measure is nothing if not fair-minded. If you say yes, you are effectively arguing against free speech, against that treasured concept of Labour being a broad church. You are also conniving in the opportunism that we have seen in the Party on a number of occasions recently aimed at using even the slightest pretext for getting rid of people who you don't like. Not that they've done much wrong, just that you don't like them because they don't fit your agenda. And before you jump down my throat with a litany of "wrong things" that Jeremy has done, just remember that he was suspended, ostensibly, for his form of words as the report was published. Not for anything else, eh? Or was he? And can you honestly say that that's the bandwagon you're not jumping on? It's not Corbyn who's a martyr. Starmer is making a martyr of the party.

As for left and right, my context in these posts has been the Labour Party. Corbyn, the Campaign Group and union representatives such as McCluskey, among others, are on the left of the party. Starmer and most of his cabinet are on the right of the party. There are far harder lefties outside the party than the people I've named and, in the overall scheme of things, Starmer and co are somewhere in the centre of UK politics ("centre-left" is definitely pushing it in my opinion). It's a bit weird really. Most lefties I've known are puffing their chests out with pride when they get called lefties, but, oddly, very few people ever like to be labelled "right." My remarks with regard to Labour are purely in the context of the party. I would have thought that was obvious, but hey ho.


19 Nov 20 - 07:05 PM (#4080292)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

And on a slightly whimsical note, Priti Patel, who abused her position in government by making secret unauthorised liaisons with the Israeli regime, and who has now been found guilty of breaching ministerial rules via bullying, is likely to get no more than a slap on the wrist. Jeremy, chucked off the Labour benches. Priti, a cabinet minister and the most powerful woman in government. Jeremy, just a backbencher. Quite a contrast, eh?


20 Nov 20 - 01:39 AM (#4080300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i agree with Steve


20 Nov 20 - 07:12 AM (#4080319)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Cheers, Dick.

So Priti was adjudged by a lengthy enquiry to have breached the ministerial code and bullied her underlings. but Boris, on his own and overnight, before anyone has had a proper chance to see the report, sez Oh no she didn't, so end of, right? (We'll see...)

Jeremy Corbyn was adjudged by a lengthy enquiry to have not adequately addressed the antisemitism issue. He acknowledged the issue and accepted that more had to be done, but protested, in mild language, that the issue had been exaggerated (and he wasn't exactly in a minority of one in thinking that, was he?). But he was thrown out of the party, and then, when reinstated by a unanimous vote of an NEC committee, was denied the whip.

Compare and contrast. And don't forget to compare and contrast the levels of "media outrage" being generated by each. A budgie might land on Priti's shoulder whilst the hawks will circle over Jeremy's head...


20 Nov 20 - 07:22 AM (#4080321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'd rather a seagull shat on her head...


20 Nov 20 - 07:26 AM (#4080322)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

...Or a rather athletic one that could shit horizontally right on to that smirk....


20 Nov 20 - 08:14 AM (#4080330)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

It is a pity pigs don't fly.....Pottymouth Patel seems to be proud of being xenophobic.


20 Nov 20 - 09:02 AM (#4080336)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report. But it is being reported differently in the Telegraph.
According to the front page:
"Priti Patel 'unintentionally' breached the ministerial code. . . However, the inquiry also found she had become 'justifiably frustrated' by obstructive mandarins who failed to tell her about the impact of her behaviour."

That seems to be in line with her previous claim that there had been no complaints for her to respond to.


20 Nov 20 - 09:12 AM (#4080337)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

*Sigh*. Why am I not surprised at that, Nigel?

And now we're hearing that the government sourced PPE from factories in China that were using North Korean slave labour...


20 Nov 20 - 09:27 AM (#4080340)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

And now we're hearing that the government sourced PPE from factories in China that were using North Korean slave labour...

At the start of the pandemic countries around the world were attempting to source whatever supplies of PPE they could get, and the NHS was suffering through a shortage of such equipment.
Under such circumstances the government were justified in buying what equipment they could, from almost any source.
In better times, when demand does not greatly outstrip supply, you can afford the luxury of selecting your suppliers with greater care.
The same supply and demand rules means that we (as a country) are placing orders for vaccines before they have been thoroughly tested, and from multiple suppliers (10 million here, 40 million there).
Some knowledge of 'market forces' helps people to understand what is happening, and why.


20 Nov 20 - 10:10 AM (#4080341)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Ye gods, Nigel, two posts, two efforts to defend the indefensible...


20 Nov 20 - 10:53 AM (#4080343)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Ye gods, Nigel, two posts, two efforts to defend the indefensible...

No, If you would read, and understand, first. "I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report."

1, I wasn't defending Priti Patel, but pointing out that the report has yet to be published. Until it is then different sources will highlight different parts which may be in the original.
2, It may be possible, with the benefit of hindsight, to show the PPE was sourced from China, but made under unsuitable conditions. But I don't doubt that PPE obtained from other countries (or from UK suppliers) might also have a similar origin. At the time of purchase it was important to get PPE supplies from somewhere, and there was a global shortage.
Would you have preferred that the NHS were told they could have no further PPE until after suppliers (and their whole supply chain) had been given full vetting?


20 Nov 20 - 10:58 AM (#4080345)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

What was reported Nigel was:

"Sir Alex Allan’s findings, based on the Cabinet Office investigation, concluded that Patel’s approach “amounted to behaviour that can be described as bullying” – noting instances of shouting and swearing – and decided that she had breached the ministerial code, although he said her actions may have been “unintentional”.

So the man in charge of the report quite clearly states her action WERE bullying and had broken the ministerial code but tempered that by saying her actions MAY have been unintentional.


20 Nov 20 - 12:38 PM (#4080358)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I would just point out that being "unintentional" does not excuse breaches of law, and rarely codes of behaviour of any kind. After all, almost anyone could claim a behaviour was unintentional, if that was all it took. But of course, the claim she was unaware of such behaviour bears little weight when Sir Philip Rutnam resigned after accusing her of being involved in a "vicious and orchestrated campaign". Even if she denies it, it would be reasonable if you were accused of it to wonder why people might think you were.


20 Nov 20 - 12:48 PM (#4080361)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

From today's Daily Mash.

PRITI Patel has confessed she had no idea that Chinese burns, nutsack drawer-slammings and regular wedgies were what the weak considered ‘bullying’.

The home secretary faces allegations of what civil servants call bullying and she calls ‘robust motivational techniques’, including getting your briefcase thrown onto the roof and swirlies.

She said: “So calling a senior civil servant a four-eyed pisswipe who shags his mum is ‘bullying’ now, is it? Well I didn’t know.

“May I remind you that some of these people insist they are ‘politically neutral’ instead of backing Brexit to the absolute hilt? If that’s not provocation I don’t know what is.

“Yes, perhaps I did flush the occasional lunch down the toilets. Perhaps a few pairs of glasses got stamped on. Perhaps copies of the ministerial code left on my desk, with key passages highlighted, were returned smeared with excrement.

But I am a strong, decisive woman who demands a lot of my employees, and I don’t apologise for that. Now come here. Me and my gang are going to throw you in the bins.”

Conservative MP Eleanor Shaw said: “Priti is not a bully and is a kind, wonderful person. When I hear her coming I definitely do not hide in the toilets.”


20 Nov 20 - 12:53 PM (#4080362)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Aha.. "Plausible deniability" rears it's predictable head again
as a flimsy defence for a high ranking tory wrongdoer...


20 Nov 20 - 02:27 PM (#4080375)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Raggytash
Date: 20 Nov 20 - 10:58 AM
What was reported Nigel was:
"Sir Alex Allan’s findings, based on the Cabinet Office investigation . . .


"What was reported" where? and by whom?. (It helps to judge the value of any "quoted" comment)
At least Steve's quote is shown to be from a satirical website.


20 Nov 20 - 03:01 PM (#4080381)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

From the actual report Nigel. It is in much of the media.

"“My advice is that the Home Secretary has not consistently met the high standards required by the Ministerial Code of treating her civil servants with consideration and respect. Her approach on occasions has amounted to behaviour that can described as bullying in terms of impact felt by individuals.

To that extent her behaviour has been in breach of the Ministerial Code, even if unintentionally."

You can try and spin it all you want but the facts remain the same. I am appalled that you can even try and defend her.


20 Nov 20 - 03:31 PM (#4080384)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

From the Guardian:

However, Sir Philip Rutnam, who resigned as the Home Office’s permanent secretary after accusing Patel of a “vicious and orchestrated briefing campaign” against him, added to the pressure on Patel by challenging a claim in the bullying report that she had been given no feedback about her behaviour by civil servants, and was therefore unaware of the impact.

The Guardian Today newsletter: the headlines, the analysis, the debate – sent direct to you

 

Read more

“This is not correct,” Rutnam said. “As early as August 2019, the month after her appointment, she was advised that she must not shout and swear at staff. I advised her on a number of further occasions between September 2019 and February 2020 about the need to treat staff with respect, and to make changes to protect health, safety and wellbeing.”

In another remarkable admission, he said he was “at no stage asked to contribute evidence to the Cabinet Office investigation”.


20 Nov 20 - 05:42 PM (#4080395)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Doesn't that make her a liar and the investigation a whitewash, or what?

By the way, Nigel, satirical or not, many a true sentiment has been expressed in jest....


21 Nov 20 - 02:05 AM (#4080433)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve - that's very true....

There's a despairingly serious subtext
to most of my sarcastic absurdist comments...


They are not just shite jokes...


21 Nov 20 - 02:44 AM (#4080435)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i have a suspicion that boris and cruella were ex bed mates, pigs may not fly but they seem to fornicate,


21 Nov 20 - 09:54 AM (#4080467)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

ex.. or he still thinks he's in with a chance if he continues 'looking after' her...

If he scratches her back, she might.....


21 Nov 20 - 12:34 PM (#4080484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Following Major and Currie, anything is possible.


21 Nov 20 - 02:02 PM (#4080493)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

I was looking at the Kyrgystan tourism website and notice that UK currently has a visa free arrangement by virtue of being an EU member. Have the Foreign Office workers sorted out visa free travel for EVERY country for which EU visa free arrangements currently exist from 1 second past midnight on 1st January, or are they quite happy to face personal retribution form the public for their incompetence if they fail to do so (sort of ironic rant).


21 Nov 20 - 02:55 PM (#4080499)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The Patel saga gets murkier by the day.

In today's Guardian:
====
Boris Johnson’s former adviser on ministerial standards was prevented from interviewing a key witness for his formal bullying inquiry into Priti Patel.

Legal and Whitehall sources have revealed that Sir Alex Allan sought to interview the former top Home Office civil servant Sir Philip Rutnam about his dealings with Patel, but was blocked by government officials.

Allan’s bullying inquiry was launched by the prime minister following the resignation of Rutnam over’s Patel’s alleged behaviour and he is suing the government for constructive dismissal. Sources say Allan was informed he could not interview Rutnam for his independent inquiry because of the legal action.

Allan, however, felt that his inquiry was being denied potentially crucial evidence. The inability of the prime minister’s former ethics adviser to question Rutnam also prompted a “spirited row” within the government’s legal department.

Even so, he uncovered sufficient material to conclude that Patel had broken the code governing ministers’ behaviour.
=====

Whatever the truth of this, why Rutnam was not invited to contribute to the enquiry needs explaining.


21 Nov 20 - 03:37 PM (#4080508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

"I'll reserve judgement until/unless we see the report."

Well Nigel you've had 24 hours to consider this matter. What is your judgement now.


21 Nov 20 - 03:43 PM (#4080509)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Whatever the truth of this, why Rutnam was not invited to contribute to the enquiry needs explaining.

Might it be that as Rutnam is currently suing the government for constructive dismissal, he has an interest in seeing her dismissed which would support his case? As such, his testimony to the tribunal might be biased.

I'm not saying that this is the case, but it does answer the question.


21 Nov 20 - 03:53 PM (#4080511)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

But all the Patel apologist tories who are saying that is the case,
are yet again resorting to type
by closing ranks and automatically maliciously blaming the victim...


21 Nov 20 - 03:57 PM (#4080512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Well Nigel you've had 24 hours to consider this matter. What is your judgement now.

My judgement (not that it would have any effect) is that I have still not seen the report. I have seen quotes about the report, from both sides, but (unless you know of an online full copy) I still have not seen the report.

I'm not giving a conclusion one way or the other based on evidence which I haven't seen. Others may not be so scrupulous.


21 Nov 20 - 04:00 PM (#4080513)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The problem with that, Nigel, is that there are others with stronger motivations to be biased.


21 Nov 20 - 04:01 PM (#4080514)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Nigel.


21 Nov 20 - 04:05 PM (#4080515)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: Raggytash
Date: 21 Nov 20 - 04:01
Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle Nigel.


Wriggle, wriggle, wriggle, Raggy.
Do you have access to the report that you can provide?

No? I thought not!


21 Nov 20 - 04:14 PM (#4080516)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

The problem with that, Nigel, is that there are others with stronger motivations to be biased.
That is another possibility, but a very difficult view to come to without more evidence, which we're not being given.


21 Nov 20 - 04:40 PM (#4080519)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. and whose interests are best served by controlling and suppressing
availability of evidence...???


23 Nov 20 - 02:31 PM (#4080694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Bank of England governor says a "No-Deal" Brexit would cost more than covid

Speaking to MPs on the Commons Treasury committee, he said the fallout from the pandemic and the second national lockdown in England was having a much bigger short-term impact on the economy. However, “the long-term effects, I think, would be larger than the long-term effects of Covid. But … it would be better to have a trade deal, yes, no question about it.”

Nice to know, I suppose.


24 Nov 20 - 03:01 AM (#4080759)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

On this last page alone we have discussed the Labour party divisions, Brexit, government contracts and Priti Patel's bullying behaviour. It really is about time the ridiculous rule about only having one UK politics thread is removed. There has been no acrimony or long running battles in the thread for weeks. The previous problems have been resolved. There are numerous threads about Donald Trump. Come on, Mods. It is about time!


24 Nov 20 - 10:14 AM (#4080796)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

the Now Show Radio 4. The closing song (at approx 25:30 mins) by Flo & Jo a tribute to Dolly Parton part funding a vaccine came up with the immortal line:

Not all blondes are bimbos (except the one in number 10).

A tribute with bite. Yea!


25 Nov 20 - 09:44 AM (#4080919)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjhHhL_15Nw&ab_channel=DoubleDownNews

Definitely worth watching...


25 Nov 20 - 05:42 PM (#4080945)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

thanks for that pdf, the most sensible comment i have seen on the question for ages. i can't understand why keir starmer is so keen to attack it. there surely can't be much to be gained by going along with the far right israeli government line. he is just out to appease the daily mail and cause trouble, obviously - but why?


25 Nov 20 - 06:21 PM (#4080950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Jesus, that was powerful. I watched ur. it with tears in my eyes. I suppose that makes me an antisemite...


25 Nov 20 - 07:12 PM (#4080954)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Delete the ur.


26 Nov 20 - 06:46 AM (#4081012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I have been chatting to PFR about Bluetooth ear phones too so took the opportunity to test something using that clip. Yep. Powerful stuff and I agree with every word she says.


28 Nov 20 - 06:27 AM (#4081186)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well whaddya know? Rishi Sunak's wife is richer than the Queen, and he's failed to declare almost all of this in the official register of ministers' interests, as he should have...
See Guardian.


28 Nov 20 - 07:43 AM (#4081191)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Here's the link

Thing is, it will be ignored by Bozzer. He is of the Trump school of thought that this makes Sunak a very clever chacellor...


28 Nov 20 - 10:30 AM (#4081202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

What gets me about this, apart from Dishi Rishi's dishonesty, is the spin. His wife is one of the hundred richest women in Britain. His wife is richer than the Queen.

But hang on a minute...

Where I come from, when you're MARRIED to someone, and they're rich, and as long as it's a proper marriage an' all that and not some shady arrangement, then if she's very very rich then he's just as very very rich... What's mine is thine an' all that...

For richer for poorer....

What am I missing here?


28 Nov 20 - 01:00 PM (#4081224)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I think you are missing a tenet of the Tory creed, Steve.

What's yours is mine and what's mine is my own.

Presuming the latest Mrs S is of the same political persuasion as her hubby, he has no chance of getting his hands on her cash. He will continue to rob the poor to give to the rich instead.


28 Nov 20 - 02:19 PM (#4081236)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

WARNING WARNING - SHIFTY TW@T ALERT...!!!!!

Nadhim Zahawi appointed as vaccine rollout minister


Well.. that inspires confidence...

Every time I've seen him interviewed on the news,
he's evasive, waffling, repetitive, nervously uncomfortably squirming and sweating;

Looks like you've just caught him red handed rummaging through your underwear drawer..

Yeah.. top choice appointment to such a serious responsibility...


28 Nov 20 - 06:44 PM (#4081263)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Couldn't agree more, pfr. As soon as I heard the news I clasped my hand to my head (which wasn't as aching as usual, as, well, it is Saturday night and well past Prosecc-o'clock...)

Can't wait to hear that we've got the "capacity" to vaccinate twenty million, but, so far, as of late Feb, we've managed a couple of hundred in Surbiton... and that millions of vaccines are "lost in the post" (my old mum's excuse for not sending me a birthday card...) Maybe that bloke down the pub in Mark Hancock's village, you know, the guy who makes paper coffee cups, will manage at least a few hundred glass vials by then... Anyone know a good glass-blower??


29 Nov 20 - 02:29 AM (#4081276)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

what a cock up,i despair, and why a 70 percent vacinr instead of a 95 per cent , is it because its cheaper


29 Nov 20 - 04:01 AM (#4081279)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

You can add to that the proposal that the 'Winter Plan' now looks like it will be coming to end at the start of February rather than end of March, at which point the MPs will be able to vote on something to replace it.

Who cares if we have a pandemic to control? Let's keep promising to end our plans for no better reason than keeping Tory MPs on side. (The bills are likely to pass anyway with Labour support, but that's embarrassing for Johnson.)

If you recall, the only reason the lockdown is ending on 2nd December was because Johnson had to promise it would end then to placate the backbenchers. It was obvious something would have to replace it, but that's a problem for another day: concentrate on getting the lockdown vote through.

This is exactly the same strategy: promise it is ending but don't give a thought to what comes after.


29 Nov 20 - 10:21 AM (#4081306)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

In London Yesterday

Why wasn't everyone involved placed into compulsory supervised quarantine for 14 days and allowed to go home once they have paid for and got a negative test in order to safeguard their communities?

I am looking forward to the government making a legally binding announcement that their will be no further restrictions if, because of their behaviour, their is a spike in the number of infections.


29 Nov 20 - 10:34 AM (#4081309)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

All of those bare-faced protesters are pretty alarming. No attempt to distance, no masks dangling around their necks ready to put on in close situations. Even just people with their noses out of their masks defeat the entire purpose of the mask, they might as well not have one on. It's difficult to shame them into compliance, and I'm sure it is the influence of Trump's bellicose behavior that has emboldened others around the world.


29 Nov 20 - 12:38 PM (#4081318)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

All the worst damaging political shit Britain is enduring has ideological origins,
funding, and string pulling,
from alt right America..

We have too many influential fake British patriots in Govt, mainstream and social media,
deviously selling us out to their USA pay masters...


30 Nov 20 - 05:35 AM (#4081391)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Now it seems that Sunak's hedge-fund missus has been involved in companies that channel investments through Mauritius in order to avoid taxes payable in India. "Well, that's entirely your own business, dear..."


30 Nov 20 - 05:56 AM (#4081392)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Not saying our PM is a poor judge of character..

.. but..

If Jimmy Saville were still breathing,
boris would probably appoint him as special adviser to Hospitals and Schools...


30 Nov 20 - 02:33 PM (#4081441)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Nah, it would be child protection.


01 Dec 20 - 01:43 AM (#4081488)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

This just popped up on my youtube feed...

https://www.youtube.com/post/UgwCoxZ03yLox8xeRit4AaABCQ

"Sky News
11 hours ago
A backlash over a council's plan to spend £100,000 on the unveiling of a Margaret Thatcher statue
has prompted more than 1,000 people to promise they will turn up at an "egg throwing contest" on the same day...
"

https://news.sky.com/story/margaret-thatcher-statue-more-than-1-000-vow-to-attend-egg-throwing-contest-at-unveiling-amid-backlash-12147303

[clicky wont work..]

"Margaret Thatcher statue: More than 1,000 vow to attend 'egg throwing contest' at unveiling amid backlash
The £300,000 bronze statue will be placed on a 10ft-high plinth to prevent vandalism....
"


01 Dec 20 - 02:53 PM (#4081562)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

if people want to demonstrate against wearing masks they should be allowed to providing they are social distancing.
Whethet the intention of governments is to control people for the sake of controllling , i do not know, does anyone else know, do yiu know spb co operator, no of course you do not.
but you are developing alarming totalitarian tendencies, however a lot of controlling is occurring, i wear masks in supermarkets ,but none of us know how effective they are, i think social distancing is more important,
i have noticed how this is being used to divide people against another ,people haranguing others for not wearing masks, divide and rule again, some people behaving in over the top aggressive attitudes to others for not wearing masks


01 Dec 20 - 03:44 PM (#4081565)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

It isn't totalitarianism, it is care for myself, the people I love, my friends and my community. it is not so much whether or not people should be forced to look after their own safety, and if they have a death wish, that is their own choice. However, thus was a case where people protesting were not practicing social distancing, and when they go into their workplace the next working day, can their employers guarantee that they have not picked up an infection they are bringing to work, Can the school teachers guarantee the same about the protestors' children?

Nobody enjoys the restrictions, and in my view the government have twice waited until the horse have bolted before closing the stable door.


01 Dec 20 - 03:47 PM (#4081567)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Now I may be wrong but if people are demonstrating about wearing masks I don't think they are going to be too bothered about social distancing.

Just my tuppence worth.


02 Dec 20 - 01:40 AM (#4081598)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

STEVE how effective are masks,just answer the question/
QUOTE SPB
Why wasn't everyone involved placed into compulsory supervised quarantine for 14 days. THAT IS THE ATTITUDE OF A TOTALITARIAN
you are making an assumption that they have covid 19.
RAGGY TASH,you are making a sweeping statemrent that all those protestors are the same and have exactly the same opinions, that is as wide of the mark as suggesting that all people who wear masks feel the same way about it.
however i have witnessed people who choose not to wear masks being verbally abused in supermarkets , that is out of order. and is an example of governments getting people to turn on each other divide and rule, i have also seen people wearing masks not giving social distance to others
one person wearing a mask had the audacity to brush me while trying to get to the hand sanitiser. some people wear a mask and seem to forget about social distancing


02 Dec 20 - 02:54 AM (#4081600)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The science is dead simple and summarised by round about the only good three word catchphrase this government had come up with. Hands. Face. Space. A combination of all three will help to reduce the spread and everyone should comply. Apart from anyone with genuine medical issues, those purposely flouting those rules are simply knobheads. Those abusing people for not wearing masks are not much better but at least they are not dangerous.


02 Dec 20 - 03:09 AM (#4081601)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

but at least they are not dangerous. quote
but what if they fart, can they still spread the virus whilst wearing a mask? i was in a supermarket and someone did a really smelly one, and nobody knew who it was.


02 Dec 20 - 03:22 AM (#4081605)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i am not extracting the urine , but there appears to be medical disagreement on tthe dangers of passing wind and the virus in public


02 Dec 20 - 03:28 AM (#4081606)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

but, dave, that pillock that brushed up against me wearing a mask to get at the hand sanitiser was possibly dangerous, he touched me unnecsssarily, not just a pillock but a knobhead


02 Dec 20 - 03:34 AM (#4081608)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yep, absolutely, Dick. Hands. Face>. Space.
02 Dec 20 - 03:36 AM (#4081609)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Just a thought on those who spout freedom of choice.

Wonder if they would be happy if I chose to walk round with no pants and shit on the pavement?


02 Dec 20 - 04:09 AM (#4081612)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

they spout freedom of choice not to wear a mask they are not asking to shit on the pavement,
now i do not mind them not wearing a mask if they keep their distance, but people who wear a mask but come close and touch me imo are more dangerous., particularly ironic as he was trying to get to the hand sanitiser
as for you mooning ,
you dont have the figure for it and as for shitting on the pavement it is against the law.
this is the situation in ireland
When must I wear a face covering?
Public transport

You must wear a face covering while using public transport.

If you have a reasonable excuse to not wear a face covering, you should tell the driver or inspector. Read ‘Exceptions’ below for information on reasonable excuses.

Drivers of a public transport vehicle do not have to wear a face covering if they are:

    Alone in a compartment
    Separated from passengers by a screen
    In the vehicle but there are no passengers getting on or off
the people who were demonstrating against wearing a mask were outside.
that is not breaking the law however if they were demonstrating but not social distancing that is different,
but spb insisting that they should be told to self isolate is behaving in a totalitarian manner
he knows nothing about them but assumes they are working and have children.
meanwhile schools remain open in the uk and it is not compulsory to wear masks
Schools and colleges will have the discretion to require face coverings in indoor communal areas where social distancing cannot be safely managed if they believe that it is right in their particular circumstances
why are schools open ,
bloody stupid, they could catch up with their education with a extra months ion the summer , which would mean that by then vaccination would have been rolled out. meanwhile schoolteachers are being put at risk


02 Dec 20 - 04:33 AM (#4081613)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yea, ok, shitting on the pavement may be a bit extreme but it they are spouting freedom to not wear masks, what about my freedom to not wear pants?:-)


02 Dec 20 - 04:37 AM (#4081614)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

well that is against the law too, its called indecent exposure, i am guessing you mean naked, when you say not wearing pants , not wearing trousers and not underpants.


02 Dec 20 - 04:41 AM (#4081615)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

and you are free to got to a nudist camp and dingle your dongle as long as you dont dingle your dongles and get too close, but there are probably no nudist camps open, or m,aybe y0u can wear a mask over your john thomas, try doing that in your local supermarket thats proibably ok if you have amask over your face and a willy warmer over your tresticles and bjollocks , try it out and let me know


02 Dec 20 - 05:09 AM (#4081616)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Telling me I must wear pants is totalitarian!


02 Dec 20 - 05:20 AM (#4081621)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

no, its the law, you can be fined for indecent exposure ,it is not breaking the law to make outdoor protests provide you socially distance , it is totalitarian for steve to insist that they all isolate when he does not know anything about them.or whether they are covid free
it interests me to spot potential controllers.


02 Dec 20 - 06:24 AM (#4081625)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Looks like the UK will get the vaccine before the USA


02 Dec 20 - 06:46 AM (#4081627)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Not so Dick, I didn't make any assumptions I responded to your statement:

"if people want to demonstrate against wearing masks they should be allowed to providing they are social distancing."

If anyone was making an assumption it was you.


02 Dec 20 - 06:47 AM (#4081628)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Viruses are carried in moisture droplet, not methane emissions. Underwear and trousers serve the purpose of **** coverings as masks do as face coverings.

The idea of mass interment is of course ironic, but taking into account the almost certain evidence that the crowds at the football match in Liverpool and the horse races at Cheltenham made the first wave worse than it could have been, gathering in crowds to protest and not wearing face coverings or socially distancing while doing so is irresponsible and has a potential public health risk. The real issues is that the more people someone who is infected comes in contact with, the greater the rate of reinfection. That isn't politics, it is mathematics.

I don't have problems if people want to put themselves at risk, as long as they don't expect help when things go pear-shaped for them - talk to anyone who does mountain rescue as a volunteer or for a living, or RNLI/Coastguard who have to rescue holidaymakers from inflatable toy dinghies. I am concern about people who are cavalier about putting other people at risk.

Restrictions are horrible, but they won't go away while mobs of people flout them just because they don't like being told to take responsibility. Also, if we had a government that faced up to its public health responsivities in a timely manner, then this discussion probably wouldn't even be happening.


02 Dec 20 - 06:55 AM (#4081629)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

You're a lucky man if you have both tresticles and bjollocks, Dick. Good luck finding a willy warmer man enough to do the job...

I was in the pub and a bloke sidled up to me at the bar, saying, Hey mate, between you and me we have five bollocks. Why, said I, have you only got the one?

I'm not a mask dissenter or an anti-mask campaigner, and I wear them where required at all times, but, loud and proud, I say that masks are probably more bad than good when I see the misuse they are routinely put to. Wot a lot of people don't realise, when they feel all safe behind their masks and forget all about social distancing, is that not all viruses are inside big sneezy drops that get trapped in the fabric, that virus particles are virtually non-filterable, and that mask wearers who constantly fiddle with the damn things, which is an awful lot of them, probably have a lot more virus on their hands than people who don't wear masks. Yet mask wearing is compulsory whereas hand-washing isn't. You couldn't make it up. Let's stick to the law this time but determine NEVER to let a government control us in this way ever again. Saw a good tweet yesterday which said that I'm not allowed to go to my mum's for tea in her house yet I can have my minge waxed by a total stranger...


02 Dec 20 - 07:41 AM (#4081632)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Using hand sanitisers whenever I pass one helps with that problem - even if it does dry the skin on my hands. My better half has a bigger problem because of eczema from skin allergies. (does anyone know why we say exma and not exzeema - decades of lazy speaking?). Surely the answer in favour of masks is that if we cough on someone, the droplets have a much higher viral load than if we breath on someone. I still find it ridiculous when people still spout on about masks being impervious to oxygen and carbon dioxide. Maybe they are using polythene masks???


02 Dec 20 - 07:59 AM (#4081635)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

then dont cough on anyone use your hand, its easy.


02 Dec 20 - 08:12 AM (#4081636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

That's fine if you don't touch things that other people will touch after.


02 Dec 20 - 08:33 AM (#4081640)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i wont be touching you


02 Dec 20 - 12:41 PM (#4081683)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

..a year of covid is tending to bring out the inner conspiracy theorist rebel nutter
in even the previously most sensible folks...

However, all the pre-covid nutters are now completely nucking futs...!!!


02 Dec 20 - 12:55 PM (#4081686)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Maybe this bloke got it right.

And Dick, maybe you should stop telling people to use their hand. People may think you're an expert at it...


02 Dec 20 - 01:20 PM (#4081688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I've never tried nuckin' a fut, but when I was younger I did enjoy muffin' the mule...


02 Dec 20 - 02:03 PM (#4081692)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

We were in The Sportsman at Hayfield and saw they had duck muffin on the menu. You can imagine the conversation.

They did have the classic three plaster ducks on the wall and we wondered if they had already been muffed...


02 Dec 20 - 02:04 PM (#4081693)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and 400!


07 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM (#4082298)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Looks like crashing out is inevitable. Why am I not surprised.

An economist interviewed on the news said food will likely to be more expensive and not as readily available. Got to look at the bright side I suppose though. Dishwashers will be cheaper.

I hope all those who were fooled by Boris's Bus and Farage's Frauds will be happy washing all those dishes that have not had any food on them :-(


07 Dec 20 - 06:06 PM (#4082307)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Possibly, Dave, but I am prepared to wait a few more days to see how things turn out. If a deal is proposed, there is then the UK Parliament and the EU gauntlets to run. So things don't look good, but we will see soon enough.


07 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM (#4082315)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

There are bound to be a few problems as it will take a while to settle down. It will be a few years before we are able to tell if we are better off or not.i don't think we will be but time will tell.


07 Dec 20 - 07:17 PM (#4082324)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK...!!!????? [Wtff for more sensitive folks...]

Not seen this reported on any BBC news...

Labour Suspends Prominent Jewish Activist For Defending Jeremy Corbyn


If this hadn't just turned up on my random youtube feed,
I'd be none the wiser...


07 Dec 20 - 10:38 PM (#4082358)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

Watching an American Public Broadcasting television article about Brexit using the term "Hard Brexit" multiple times.

Some good comments from a British economist including the following cautions regarding Hard Brexit long term fallout:

a smaller England with essentially constricted borders
the Good Friday agreement threatened
diplomatic ill feelings between Europe and the U.K., uncertainty with U.S. relations.

A point that was new to me but probably not to many of you was that the Europeans have a need to not let the U.K. look like it got a great deal, because then further exits become more attractive. And I suppose that U.K. has an interest in keeping Scotland aboard while all this is happening as well.

And I believe many of you feel that Boris favors a Hard Brexit anyway.

Canada and Quebec take notice!


08 Dec 20 - 03:02 AM (#4082375)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Unfortunately, Robomatic, many favoured a hard Brexit. Trouble is that they believe this means that the UK will keep all the benefits of being in Europe, be able to keep out Johnny Foreigner and, once again, rule the waves. Boris convinced them that he could achieve this. They believed him. Boris may be the worst prime minister we have ever had but, as a con man, he has no equal.


08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM (#4082378)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.

Or to put it less dramatically, all of the costs due to disruption during the few years Rain Dog mentions have to be recovered before you can even think of being better off. If, for example, during that time a long term contract comes up and because of the disruption it goes to another country as supplier, it may be decades before it comes up again so the business concerned (and hence to some extent the UK) is disadvantaged for all that period.

I thought Zoe Williams described it quite well in a recent article

So there emerged two discrete, parallel contexts for the discussion: one completely abstract, in which democracy must be upheld and sovereignty restored; the other completely concrete: who do you sell herring to if you don’t want to eat it, and where on earth do you have an Irish border? Never able to knit those two spheres back together, we had instead this jarring dualism, where we’d talk grace notes in Westminster (take control of our money, borders and laws!), and car plant closures outside Westminster, and those discussions never progressed since they were never informed by one another.

Whether the country thrives or not depends on the concrete: the herrings, the cars, the sheep exports, the services provided and so on. Sovereignty is only really relevant (in trade) to the extent it affects those.


08 Dec 20 - 03:44 AM (#4082380)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

yes PFR thankyou for that video clip.
mean while Hillary Benn is very quiet is he watching which way the wind is blowing, IS HE waiting for Starmer to destroy himself


08 Dec 20 - 05:08 AM (#4082389)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i am sure that not everybody who voted leave, voted for a hard brexit some [i think ] were under the impression that there were options like norway or canada or switzerland , there should be another clearer referendum, this is an important issue and people should know exactly what they are voting for


08 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM (#4082392)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

It'll not be too surprising if a significant number of the 60,000 and rising covid fatalities,
voted yes for brexit...

..that'd take a chunk out of the miniscule majority
looking forward so enthusiastically to leaving the EU..


My sense of humour is too dark sometimes...


08 Dec 20 - 06:25 AM (#4082396)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

From: DMcG
Date: 08 Dec 20 - 03:38 AM

The two biggest problems with the 'better on the other side of the river' argument are that we are not sure it is true, but even if it is, we need to swim the river to get there, and could drown.


Good argument which could be applied to those in Calais looking to make a risky crossing of the channel.
For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.


08 Dec 20 - 06:43 AM (#4082398)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Definitely, Nigel. There are those who prepared to let the country take the risks or bear the costs. I would say, though, I see a significant reluctance on their part to elaborate how severe those risks or costs are. Even what they mean by 'short term' is very hard to pin down when they use it phrases like like 'disruption in the short term'.


08 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM (#4082401)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

For some the prospect of freedom/sovereignty makes the risks worthwhile.

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.


08 Dec 20 - 08:17 AM (#4082406)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

..great metaphor..

..a lot of 'em are already dropping dead from disease,
before they even crawl into the punctured leaky rubber dinghies
attempting to cross the treacherous river brexit...


08 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM (#4082425)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: mayomick

Brexit River will turn out to be a creek for most people.Nigel Farage , Boris and a few others will be able paddle their way out of it.


09 Dec 20 - 04:17 AM (#4082556)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Nigel,

I am thinking of taking up archery as a hobby, and I require you to put an apple on your head so I can have a go at sharpshooting. As I have no practice - I last did archery at school in 1978 - I am aware of the risks if I am an inch or two out with my aim. But you need to fully accept those risks.

No ifs, no butts (pun intended).


09 Dec 20 - 08:25 AM (#4082585)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Yes Nigel and if these people were taking risks that only affected them that is a good argument. But they are not. The risk of crossing the Brexit river affects everyone in the country, their children and their children's children. Because you and other Brexiteers decided that the risks were worthwhile we will all suffer the consequences. Thank you very much.

As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum. They were not accepted by the majority of voters then, and I doubt if they would be now.


09 Dec 20 - 09:03 AM (#4082590)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Stop trying to delude yourself - and us. Control is shared by the 28 states, and the bigger your state the more say you have. As one of the biggest states we had plenty of say, including the possibility of vetos over many major proposals. There is no European army because we said no, for example. That doesn't amount to "little or no control" in my book. The fact is, Nigel, that the UK willingly joined the consensus over changes to regulations and EU law almost all the time - because you can't get bad laws past all 28 states. The EU is about consensus, not control. Which is not to say that grievous mistakes, over Greece for example, can't be made...

"As opposed to the risks of remaining part of a much larger state over which we had little or no control.
It's no use trotting out the arguments which failed in the referendum."

But it's OK for you to trot out the lies that fooled millions into voting brexit...


09 Dec 20 - 10:12 AM (#4082601)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Nigel, had we have remained in the EU and our standard of living had taken a dive due to that, I would have happily joined you in castigating the EU.

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out. It has been pointed out that there will be tough times ahead and even the most ardent Brexiteer has now accepted that.

Until such a time as the losses we will suffer are recovered and we have surpassed our current standard of living I will continue to lay the blame at your door. If it ever happens that we make up for economic, social and cultural losses and then surpass our existing standards you are welcome to say "I told you so". I shall not be holding my breath.


09 Dec 20 - 10:58 AM (#4082615)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

When (not if) our standard of living falls because we have left the EU there will be no one to blame but those that took us out

Oh, I am sure no blame will be put on that if there is any remote chance of blaming covid-19 instead.

Yes, covid-19 will hit hard. That does not mean Brexit is not a factor if we have problems.


09 Dec 20 - 11:48 AM (#4082619)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave. In fact, had it not been for the time and energy wasted on the farcical handling of Brexit I am convinced that we would have been better equipped to handle the virus. So that is also Nigel's fault ;-)


09 Dec 20 - 12:25 PM (#4082623)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

The rot had set in before Covid, Dave

Indeed, but surprisingly recently in some respects. It was still possible in 2009 for an MP to be shamed for buying a Mars Bar on expenses.


09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM (#4082625)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

much as i agree, there looks like a massive cock up , it is uncalled for to say that it is nigels fault. Please can we try and be civil when we disagree about politics


09 Dec 20 - 01:14 PM (#4082628)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

As much as we enjoy friendly bickering banter with our mudcat mate Nigel,
we do know it wasn't only him wot dunnit..

Obviously he has far too many guilty accomplices for us to include them all by name individually..

That just wouldn't be practical..

So we'll just have to settle for acknowledging Nigel,
who is friendly enough to talk to us,
and the known named leaders of the anti political he is an active member of...


09 Dec 20 - 01:29 PM (#4082629)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

oops.. that last sentence somehow got scrambled between proof reading and submitting...


"and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."


09 Dec 20 - 01:35 PM (#4082631)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

So, Dick, who is going to take responsibility for Brexit? Choices are all well and good, as was the power given in the referendum. But with the power to make choices for the entire population comes great responsibilty. Someone needs to accept that responsibility and as Nigel is the only one on Mudcat espousing the benefits of Brexit we can only assume he accepts that responsibility.


09 Dec 20 - 02:29 PM (#4082638)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

and the known named leaders of the anti social political gang he is an active member of..."

There seems to be a few members of that group.


10 Dec 20 - 03:00 AM (#4082697)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Cameron should take responsibilty, he took the political gamble.,, then to a lesser extent Farage and Johnson
being rude to another mudcat member who supports brexit does not help political discussion or solve anything,


10 Dec 20 - 03:30 AM (#4082699)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

If Nigel thinks anyone here is being rude to him,
presumably he's tough enough to tell us himself...???

It's a bit like when Ake popped up today [before his post was deleted]
to lecture us on what Nick Dow [or Mr Dow, as Ake smarmily referred to him] was really trying to say..

My polite reply to him was:

"Since you appear to have developed mind reading powers since we last met,
that could come in very handy...

Though I'm sure Mr Dow is more tha capable of talking for himself,
rather than have you voice his inner thoughts on his behalf...???
"...

Anyway..

Brexit last minute drama deadline negotiations..

what a pathetic farce...!!!


10 Dec 20 - 03:50 AM (#4082700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Dick, I'm not being rude to Nigel. I am saying that because he voted for Brexit it is his fault we are leaving the EU. Ok, I know there were many more who voted the same but as he choses to be their voice on here he is accepting the responsibility. As to helping political discussion or solving anything. Really? Do you think that an obscure minority music forum has ever helped to solve any of the world's political issues?


10 Dec 20 - 03:56 AM (#4082702)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I agree. Nigel is quite capable of defending himself if he wishes. Equally, he is quite entitled not to get into an argument if that is his preference.

Blame and responsibility are subtly different. We all have to take responsibility for our decisions and actions, and should not object to being asked to account for them (though we are entitled to ignore the request.) So it is fair to expect people to take responsibility for how they voted. If they agreed that some disruption might occur, for example, then if it does they should be willing to say they accepted and still accept that as part of the necessary price.

Blame, though, is harder. I anticipate hearing quite a few Brexiteers saying over the next year that the problem was all in how it was implemented: A no-deal Brexit, for example, could have been decided at the start of the transition, giving every business a year or more to adapt to address any disadvantages and ready themselves to take advantage of any benefits. It would have given time to recruit border staff, implement and test IT systems and all the rest. This is an argument familiar from the previous decade about whether communism was 'never properly tried'. While I think no-deal a dreadful outcome, I can see some merit in that argument. If you were going to end up in no-deal, there were better paths to get there, and those choices were made by governments, not voters.

Equally if you are aiming for a deal, you had many alternatives. Using some of the conventional game theory labels, you could have played the stag hunt, rather than chicken.   We opted for chicken, which typically has the most extreme outcomes - you tend to win big or lose big. Guess where we look as if we are heading?


10 Dec 20 - 04:08 AM (#4082704)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

previous decade
I meant 'previous century'. How time flies!


10 Dec 20 - 04:22 AM (#4082705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

There are of course 2 sides involved in these negotiations. The EU were not happy with the decision for us to leave but once the decision was made they let us get on with it.BUT they are.mindful of the fact that they will not want to make it look to other members, that leaving the EU "might" appear not to involve too many negatives.Some other EU members may well be waiting to see how we get on once things settle down. We are living in uncertain times.


10 Dec 20 - 05:53 AM (#4082712)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

ridiculous, Cameron is the person who is responsible he gave the refendum, why not blame jeremy corbyn or trump


10 Dec 20 - 05:55 AM (#4082713)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

how about blaming denis skinner? he was anti europe, however he was not in a posituion to grant a referendum, nor was corbyn nor was trump nor was nigel


10 Dec 20 - 07:30 AM (#4082718)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I doubt if any of them have even heard of Mudcat, Dick. I do blame Cameron for caving in to the right wing populists but he is not here. Anyone who voted leave has joint responsibility for causing this chaos and at least one of them is here to read my complaints.


10 Dec 20 - 07:56 AM (#4082719)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

And at least that blame (if it is right) can be spread a long way. More than half the voting public voted to leave the EU. That will spread that blame extremely thinly.
Also there is the matter of Barnier originally saying that he would only offer the UK the same terms as Canada, but then, apparently, withdrawing that option. Where does the blame for that lie? I would suggest that some of it lies with the BBC and the remain camp. They seem to have convinced the EU that, if the EU held its nerve, and didn't offer a good deal, then the referendum would be overturned. While we still had Theresa May that might have come true. But now it is the EU that is playing chicken and they haven't realised that the game has changed.
If we leave on WTO terms (called 'no deal' by some) then we are out, and negotiations can re-start in earnest, with the EU negotiating from a totally different position.
France look as if they want to scupper any deal, and insist that the EU must not give in on fisheries, hence the attempt to get an 80/20 split. If we leave on WTO terms then the UK regains full cotrol of our coastal waters, and France will be looking to increase from zero%. A totally different position.
I would like to see UK get a good deal, but still feel that " 'No deal' is better than a bad deal".
We will know within three weeks.


10 Dec 20 - 08:11 AM (#4082721)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half." I can, of course, process your meaning, but the way you put was very spun brexit-populist-Tory...


10 Dec 20 - 08:41 AM (#4082722)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

And here we are with 3 weeks to go.
Get ready for Brexit the government tells us. Well it would be helpful if someone told us what the regulations will be on the 1st of Jan.
Get ready for Brexit the EU tells their member states. Well it would be helpful if someone told EU companies if they will have to pay tariffs on their imports from the Uk or if their exports to the UK will be liable to tariffs.
Some negotiations huh? Some negotiators.


10 Dec 20 - 09:00 AM (#4082725)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

"Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half."

Neither is 43.35% but then it was a long time ago.


10 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM (#4082728)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

But now it is the EU that is playing chicken and they haven't realised that the game has changed.

Can you elaborate on that Nigel? As far as I can see, both sides are still playing chicken and nothing has changed in that respect. Being prepared to pay the cost of losing is part of the game. There is a list of the standard 'game theory' games here, and to mind 'Chicken' is still the best fit. Which do you think is better?

Personally, I think the game was initiated when David Davis was saying all the UK needed to do was stick to its demands and the EU would give in at the last minute, which is as textbook an example of 'chicken' as you could hope for.


10 Dec 20 - 09:59 AM (#4082733)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Where does the blame for that lie?

It lies with those that supported Brexit, Nigel. Had you and the others not voted that way the situation would never have arisen.


10 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM (#4082744)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

"From: Steve Shaw -
Date: 10 Dec 20 - 08:11 AM
Just a tiny point: 38% of the voting public is not "more than half." I can, of course, process your meaning, but the way you put was very spun brexit-populist-Tory..."

Steve, when will you understand that "the voting public" means the public who vote. Recreating the figures to include people who were entitled to vote but didn't, or (as you have tried in the past) to show the number who voted leave as a percentage of the total population, is to misquote the figures.

(roughly) of those who voted 52% voted leave, and 48% remain.
If you must reduce the 52% to 38% by choosing a different 'whole' then the number voting remain must also be reduced (to 48%*38/52). The relationship between the two figures will still remain 58/42.


10 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM (#4082746)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

It lies with those that supported Brexit, Nigel. Had you and the others not voted that way the situation would never have arisen.
And had you, and others, not voted remain the decision to leave would have been unanimous, and the attempts to thwart Brexit would never have arisen.
Alternate history lies in the precinct of Science Fiction. It does not necessarily make for a good discussion.


10 Dec 20 - 10:52 AM (#4082752)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The "attempts to thwart Brexit" would never have arisen if the vote had been remain. There are situations that are more likely than others and remaining in the EU would have been far more predictable than the leap into the dark we are currently engaged in. Don't be silly Nigel, it doesn't become you.


10 Dec 20 - 01:33 PM (#4082772)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

As I said Nigel, I am fully capable of processing your meaning. But the way you put it was typical Tory spin. It's perfectly possible to interpret "voting public" as "electorate," and you know it. You could have said "of those who voted," but then, of course, you'd have been forced to give us that more honest but rather thin-looking statistic (38%, right?). Had you said "electorate" you'd have been obliged to qualify your "more than half" claim too, and, incidentally, reported the result more honestly. You chose a way of putting it that avoided the need to admit that only 38% of the electorate (and I too could just as easily have said the more vague "voting public" there too...) are taking us out of the EU.


10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM (#4082778)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Poor old covid going to get the blame for post brexit hardships...


10 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM (#4082779)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

And that doesn't take into account the 20+% of under 18s who will be most seriously impacted and had no say whatsoever.


10 Dec 20 - 02:11 PM (#4082782)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Nice of the Independent to remind us of this:

Now seems as good a time as any to crack out this report from June 2019 when the then Tory leadership frontrunner, one Boris Johnson, claimed the odds of a no-deal Brexit were “a million-to-one against”.

At the time, he said:

It is absolutely vital that we prepare for a no-deal Brexit if we are going to get a deal. But I don’t think that is where we are going to end up – I think it is a million-to-one against – but it is vital that we prepare.



One in a million, eh?   Wonder how we got here, then.


10 Dec 20 - 02:17 PM (#4082784)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Are you suggesting that we lower the voting age then Dave?

Unfortunately it is the younger generation who will be paying the cost incurred due to covid. We will have to wait and see what costs/changes they will have to deal with due to Brexit.


10 Dec 20 - 02:18 PM (#4082785)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Yeah.. and how many of the slender majority of brexiteers
will have snuffed it by the time the divorce is finalised...???

Hands up who's still alive and wanting to leave...


10 Dec 20 - 02:42 PM (#4082788)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Exactly pfr. I always ask those who are 63 and over"how did you vote in 1975? See what it has led to?"


10 Dec 20 - 02:51 PM (#4082791)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Not at all Rain Dog. But someone should have looked after the best interests of our children and grandchildren. Plunging into the unknown is not in their best interests and those who voted to do so were quite simply selfish.


10 Dec 20 - 03:00 PM (#4082793)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Do you honestly believe that Dave? Every single person who voted for Brexit was selfish?


10 Dec 20 - 03:05 PM (#4082794)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

We're all selfish.. it's a necessity for survival..

Just that some folks are massively far more selfish than others...


10 Dec 20 - 03:10 PM (#4082795)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Yes pfr and it is always the 'others' who are more selfish than 'us'


10 Dec 20 - 03:52 PM (#4082798)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. not necessarily..

There may be objective psychological measurements of levels of selfishness,
but even if not;
most of us have keen judgment of character
earned from decades of experience
coping with extremely selfish bastards...


10 Dec 20 - 04:12 PM (#4082801)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I dont believe they all were Rain Dog. I do believe that enough people were selfish enough to tip the balance though. The trouble is that their self interests were fuelled by the lies told about the influx of "foreigners ruining our country".


10 Dec 20 - 06:32 PM (#4082822)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I thought I'd posted this already. People voted brexit because they were ignorant, deluded and very easily taken in. If you could have said in 2016 that you wouldn't get health care any more on your trip to Benidorm/Palma/Ibiza, that you will have to queue for hours at passport control, that your food is going to cost more in 2021, that your pound will scarcely buy a Euro even if the EU lets us go there at all, even if your cheap holiday company hasn't collapsed...that our economy will shrink so much that you can forget pay rises to cover these extra costs...we wouldn't even be sniffing brexit at all, would we? But you believed a pack of lies... in a few months' time I could be indulging in schadefreude - except that I'll be in the same shite that you've dropped yourself in...


10 Dec 20 - 06:33 PM (#4082823)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

SchadeNfreude


10 Dec 20 - 06:50 PM (#4082826)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

If who could have said? I have said before that there was no debate before the vote
No one had details of what terms we would be leaving on. They didn't know then and they still don't know now.


10 Dec 20 - 07:11 PM (#4082827)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

This made me laugh when I read it in our local paper today.

From our MP

"Our area is no stranger to traffic congestion from time to time. The operational plans will continue to adapt over the coming weeks and months, as they have in the past, so that the right balance between the needs of the port and residents can be struck.

I am committed to the economic success of our area. The continuing success of the port will create further jobs, new businesses and investment.

Recently negotiated new trade deals with countries such as Egypt and Morocco have opened new trade routes that could see goods go straight to and out of Dover and bypass Europe altogether."


10 Dec 20 - 07:31 PM (#4082828)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

The only people guaranteed to benefit from brexit
are [mainly] foreigners with vested interests in destabilizing Britain and the rest of Europe...

Farage knows that all too well..

He'll be amply rewarded for his treachery..

[though, perhaps not quite as much as he'd hoped for if trump had won a second term...]


10 Dec 20 - 08:05 PM (#4082835)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"If who could have said?" I was speaking hypothetically, mate...


10 Dec 20 - 11:28 PM (#4082853)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Loser remoaners will believe any lefty fake news bullshite lies..

Billionaire Brexiteer Moves Car Production To EU


What he is doing is so clearly for the benefit of Britain,
but it's far too complicated for tiny remoaner brains to understand.
So just shut, up and put up with a little short term risk.
Boris is in control and will deliver the best deal for Britain...!!!


11 Dec 20 - 01:56 AM (#4082854)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

It makes me sick that the EU are putting the interests of scum like Johnson, fsgarse and mogg before that of 68 million people by failing to guarantee that we retain 100% of the rights and benefits of EU membership. Of course Barnier isn't going to risk losing his massive payouts from billionaire oligarchs to do everything he can to undermine European cohesion, is he.


11 Dec 20 - 02:31 AM (#4082858)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i have heard somwe bullshit in my time ,i find it hilarious that boris is talking about australian type rules for trade he makes it sound like a sporting game , well its feckin not and furthermore australia have been trying to improve their "australian rules" trading terms for the last couple of years. boris reminds me of an overweight bertie wooster


11 Dec 20 - 02:54 AM (#4082862)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Recently negotiated new trade deals with countries such as Egypt and Morocco have opened new trade routes that could see goods go straight to and out of Dover and bypass Europe altogether." quote
hilarious are they going to be bringing in cannabis from morrocco


11 Dec 20 - 05:05 AM (#4082875)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Steve:
I know that you have problems comprehending honest English, but:
As I said Nigel, I am fully capable of processing your meaning. But the way you put it was typical Tory spin. It's perfectly possible to interpret "voting public" as "electorate," and you know it. You could have said "of those who voted," but then, of course, you'd have been forced to give us that more honest but rather thin-looking statistic (38%, right?).
If I had said "Of those who voted" and I would still have said 52%.
It is your attempt to spin the figures which is disingenuous.


11 Dec 20 - 06:07 AM (#4082884)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Well, this is nice:

The former Australian prime minister Malcolm Turnbull says his country’s trade deal with the EU is ‘not one Britain would want, frankly.


Fairly obviously, given they have been trying to negotiate a closer agreement for years. But I imagine No-Dealers will just close their ears.


11 Dec 20 - 06:13 AM (#4082886)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Ah yes, and by doing so you would inevitably have prompted the rest of us here to remind you that your "52%" = the far more honest 38% when the whole story is told. You Tory brexiteer-spinners will go to any length to avoid saying that 62% of the electorate/ "voting public" did NOT vote to leave the EU. And if we mention that embarrassing statistic, all you can do is bleat that it was the democratic will of the people (or something like), sidestepping the fact that the referendum was the single most undemocratic thing that has happened in this country for many a decade, superseded only now by the same blond buffoon who can't even count his own children telling us that we can't, under pain of legal sanction, go to our mums' houses for a cup of tea or sit with them in their care homes...

Incidentally, had I jumped in first with "voting public" (to mean "electorate"), I'd have been beyond reproach. "More than half of those who voted" = honest. "More than half of the voting public" = bare-faced Tory brexiteer spin...

I don't suppose "more than half of the having-voted public" would be elegant enough for you. And I won't even mention the quasi-populist inclusion of "the public" in all this brexiteer-speak...


11 Dec 20 - 07:51 AM (#4082895)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

No need fannying about with boring stats and numbers.. it's the will of the british people, remember...

= all of us..

That's far easier for tunnel-visioned brexiteers to push ahead on...


11 Dec 20 - 09:51 AM (#4082916)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Unwilling to admit that you got it wrong again Steve? Never mind.

Ah yes, and by doing so you would inevitably have prompted the rest of us here to remind you that your "52%" = the far more honest 38% when the whole story is told. You Tory brexiteer-spinners will go to any length to avoid saying that 62% of the electorate/ "voting public" did NOT vote to leave the EU.
I'm quite happy to accept that "62% of the electorate did Not vote to leave the EU"
Of course, the converse is that 65% of the electorate did NOT vote to remain part of the EU!


11 Dec 20 - 09:56 AM (#4082918)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Johnson is now saying a No-Deal is very very likely.

It is mildly amusing that in The Avengers films one of the characters examine 14,000,065 paths only one of which let to success, whereas Johnson thought there were a million paths only one of which led to failure as he defined it (ie not getting a deal).

Naturally, Johnson found the one he defined as failure.

Somehow, I don't think The Avengers will be be inviting him to join the team.


11 Dec 20 - 11:54 AM (#4082939)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

His secret identity is boris,
but as an inept super hero, he valiantly fights truth and justice as "Cock-up Man"...


11 Dec 20 - 12:23 PM (#4082943)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Out of those who did not vote:

(1) People are more likely to take the trouble to vote on a populist outcome than to vote for the status quo. Many people mistakenly assumed that remain would win (even faridge made that assumption when the polls closed) and felt that that did not need to come out on what was foul weather.

(2) Of those who were disenfranchised, the majority (EU nationals living in UK and people who are now under 24) fell within the demographic that overwhelmingly voted remain.

(3) The leave campaign failed to PROMISE ending the right of UK nationals to live/work/study/retire in UK. Faridge lied when he suggested that UK could follow the Norway (EEA/EFTA) model when he knew that the tory party had no intention whatsoever of doing so.

(4) The remain campaign was conducted appallingly by the party leaderships. Labour failed to effectively campaign on a national level, but where Labour campaigned effectively locally, this resulted in 71% vote (in the constituency where I live) to remain. Because Labour were quiet on a national level many associated remain with Cameron and Osbourne who in industrial areas were blamed for austerity.   

(5) The fact based campaign which focussed on the (now proven) impact of leaving was dismissed as project fear, but not a single promise for the leave campaign has come to fruition. Where are all the Turkish people we have been promised????

(6) Substantial leave campaigning focus upon pandering to racists who saw the referendum as a vote for legitimacy of their vile views. eg fariges 'Breaking Point' billboard.


11 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM (#4082948)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Boris's last minute deadline deal negotiations..

.. and we all thought pantomimes had been cancelled this xmas...


The EU top negotiators thought they were meeting Boris to negotiate a deal..

Boris thought he'd been invited on a hot overnight dinner date with a saucy foreign totty...

We're the only ones who'll end up f@cked...


11 Dec 20 - 01:04 PM (#4082949)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Apparently the latest wheeze is to allocate 4 naval ships to protect the fishing waters around the UK in the event of a no-deal.

A quick Google search suggests there are 7,300 EU fishing vessels, so I suspect 4 will have a hard time controlling that lot. Then how will they control them? A seizure or sinking will be a massive escalation, and I don't think the EU would just sit quietly by. Much less, and in the context of 7300 is is just a minor irritation. If the EU were to impose any kind of sanction in retaliation for a stronger action, we should remember - since it seems to be so easily forgotten - that the Republic of Ireland is in the EU and Northern Ireland is not, so that would affect the GFA border. And what would Biden think of that?

Silly grandstanding. I hope there are still some wiser heads around to council against such escalation.


11 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM (#4082962)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

The nonsense continues.

DMcG are you seriously suggesting that the EU should fish in UK waters illegally in the event of a no deal Brexit?


11 Dec 20 - 02:20 PM (#4082967)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I am saying threatening sending warships for a trade dispute is not very smart.


11 Dec 20 - 02:22 PM (#4082969)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

... especially as your opening gambit.


11 Dec 20 - 02:25 PM (#4082971)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Most of us landlubbers with any sense don't care about fishing disputes..

There are far more important concerns in life to be coping with..


I'd also expect most fish don't give a shit which nation catches them to near extinction...


11 Dec 20 - 05:09 PM (#4082999)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Add together the fishing sector and the agricultural sector and they add up to less than 1% of our GDP. The denizens of both sectors cheerfully voted overwhelmingly for brexit. Both sectors have been environmental disasters. Vandalistic wouldn't be too strong a word. My sympathies lie solidly elsewhere.


11 Dec 20 - 05:11 PM (#4083000)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: SPB-Cooperator

Rain Dog. Just because little s***s like Johnson whine that something is illegal, doesn't make it illegal. And if Johnson wants to waste money on Naval patrol, then it must be 100% paid for through a poll tax levied on fishing communities.


11 Dec 20 - 05:23 PM (#4083001)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I live in a town that used to boast, 50 years ago, a fishing fleet.

It Then employed a very small minority of the people.

Today that fishing fleet has, to all intents and purposes, gone.

Nationally the fishing industry creates 1 tenth of 1 percent of the Gross National Product.

Now I understand for that 1 tenth of 1 percent of the people the industry is VERY important,

However in the great schemes of things, to most people, it barely registers apart from the jingoism that surrounds it.


11 Dec 20 - 06:21 PM (#4083012)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Meanwhile back in the real world.

Countries the world over have their territorial waters. That is nothing new. It is only a small part in the scheme of things but trade agreements are built on small things.

We might well be heading for a no deal exit but no doubt some deals will be made at a later date,at least I hope so.


11 Dec 20 - 06:53 PM (#4083019)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I hope so too. But can you see the trade deals being as good as the ones we had? And it's not just good trade deals we are swapping for pie in the sky "sovereignty" . We are giving up years of cultural, scientific and policing cooperation. For what? To build closer ties with a now deposed madman on the other side of the Atlantic?


11 Dec 20 - 07:32 PM (#4083025)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Humouring the insane is a dangerous game.
The rules of organized chaos are full of sound and fury signifying
a falsely placed obediance.
As long as you choose law in the short run, remember this,
crazy laws have a life time too and eventually die. Some from old age and some by murder.


11 Dec 20 - 08:28 PM (#4083028)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

When we are restricted to just one thread, it's bloody annoying to have a yank who spouts utter shite getting his oar in. Frankly, Donuel, and as ever, you have nothing useful to say. So you know what I might suggest you do. It involves your bottom...


12 Dec 20 - 04:58 AM (#4083046)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I came across this when I was looking up something entirely unconnected on wiki:

Sam Mendes is an opponent of Brexit. In 2017, he stated: "I’m afraid that the winds that were blowing before the First World War are blowing again. There was this generation of men fighting then for a free and unified Europe, which we would do well to remember."

Yep.


12 Dec 20 - 05:13 AM (#4083049)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Sam Mendes is an opponent of Brexit. In 2017, he stated: "I’m afraid that the winds that were blowing before the First World War are blowing again. There was this generation of men fighting then for a free and unified Europe, which we would do well to remember."

Maybe I've misread history. I thought Britain (and allies) were fighting for a 'free' Europe, and Germany were fighting for a 'unified' Europe.
Doubtless an oversimplification, but so was Mendes' comment.


12 Dec 20 - 05:16 AM (#4083051)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Countries the world over have their territorial waters. That is nothing new.

Certainly they do. And there are few disputes because most of them have been in place for many decades or even centuries. The two sides have reached an accommodation that - more or less - works.

Before we joined the the EU (and its predecessor) we had such an accommodation with France and the other countries that fished in the Channel and North Sea. It was not just a case of "its the UK's and no-one else gets a look in."


12 Dec 20 - 05:19 AM (#4083052)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

What you misread, or misinterpreted, was the sentiment in Mendes' comment. There is no conflict therein.


12 Dec 20 - 05:22 AM (#4083054)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

There is no conflict therein.
So who was fighting for a "free and unified Europe"?


12 Dec 20 - 05:25 AM (#4083055)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

An interesting fact apropos of fishing: over half of our fishing quota is now in the hands of the Netherlands, Spain and Iceland, sold off to them by our fishing industry...


12 Dec 20 - 05:42 AM (#4083059)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

So, what will happen when one of the four warships confronts a Dutch, Spanish or Icelandic fishing boat?


12 Dec 20 - 05:43 AM (#4083060)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Your difficulty, Nigel, is that you think "unified" means "one big country." It doesn't. Since well before the referendum I've been arguing for a unified Europe, but one in which I desperately want to have 28 sovereign nations all keeping their distinctive national attributes, operating their own laws and their own form of democracy but with the same ground rules of human rights and the rule of law. 28 nations cooperating for the greater good of all, and among which war is next to impossible. Unified that way, and I'm certain that that is the sentiment in Sir Sam's remark. Naturally, as you are in vehement opposition to his point of view, you will do what Nigel does, try to pick holes. Nice try but no cigar. Not even a fag end, I'd say.


12 Dec 20 - 05:45 AM (#4083061)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Play safe and just torpedo the Russian ones instead, Jos. :-)


12 Dec 20 - 05:54 AM (#4083064)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

The Russian ones are not trawling for fish though :-)

Someone else can grab 500


12 Dec 20 - 06:09 AM (#4083069)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

'll grab the 500, but it is very selfish of me because I don't have any emotional attachment to round numbers - it is just another number in the integer set...

Reminds me of daughter-of-mine at the millennium sounding off that is was just a completely arbitrary boundary of no inherent significance whatsoever.


12 Dec 20 - 06:13 AM (#4083072)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It was so arbitrary that there was no general agreement as to when it actually was!


12 Dec 20 - 07:25 AM (#4083086)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

DMcG's daughter sounds smarter than some of you codgers, at least in polynomial time. Having an answer is not intelligence as much as having the wisdom to know which questions to ask. IQ is second to EQ or QQ in my book. Be that as it may, Steve, eat some Bran. You seem too full of yourself, as usual. :^}

I have steadfast hope that your UK politics are more sensible than American politics. As criminal conspiracies go I think America is #1.


12 Dec 20 - 07:28 AM (#4083087)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Did Johnson's Poor Behaviour Cost Brexit Breakthrough?


12 Dec 20 - 11:08 AM (#4083100)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Almost certainly, the man is an embarrassment.


12 Dec 20 - 11:12 AM (#4083103)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I'm surprised at you Bonzo, I am sure I am not alone in thinking that you voted for his party and thus allowed him to become PM.


12 Dec 20 - 11:29 AM (#4083106)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Give bonz some credit..
he might be a tory, but he's always slagged off dickhead boris...


12 Dec 20 - 11:54 AM (#4083110)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

That doesn’t absolve him, it damns him even further. Who in their right mind would vote for a dickhead?


12 Dec 20 - 12:08 PM (#4083116)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

BWM - errmmm.. we might have our own dilemma with that,
if starmer is still Labour leader by the next elections...


12 Dec 20 - 12:48 PM (#4083129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Johnson or Starmer....hmmmmm, that’s a difficult one, innit? Not.


12 Dec 20 - 12:50 PM (#4083130)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Yeah.. but it's a bit like asking which colour of shit
do you want topping your ice cream cornet...???


12 Dec 20 - 12:52 PM (#4083132)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

But knowing our luck, Margaret Hodge may even have seized leadership by then...


12 Dec 20 - 01:13 PM (#4083137)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Just as long as the previous leader doesn’t get back in - y’know, the bloke who led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory. I’m still hoping to live long enough to see a Labour government once more - I’m grown-up enough to realise it may not happen with Starmer in charge, but there’ll be SFA chance if the Party’s lumbered with Corbyn again.

Although, in contradiction of my criticism of Bonzo’s voting choice, I did vote Labour at the GE, even though I had absolutely no faith in the Leader. It’s called ‘Party-Loyalty’ or, put another way, ‘Putting Party Before Personality’.


12 Dec 20 - 01:27 PM (#4083138)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Just as long as the previous leader doesn’t get back in - y’know, the bloke who led the LP to its worst GE defeat in living memory, how about james callaghan
quote living memory, what utter bolocks.. how about 1983? backwoodsman youare a master of bullshit1979 general election – 5.3% swing from Labour to Conservative
2010 general election – 5.1% swing from Labour to Conservativ
Boris Johnson delivered the biggest electoral win to the Conservatives since Margaret Thatcher in 1987,


12 Dec 20 - 01:36 PM (#4083139)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I wasn't a Corbynite..

I've never been keen on 'cult of personality'..

I recognized his integrity and principles,
but thought a younger leader with less negative baggage
would have been a better long term choice..

I could never join the Labour party,
but will continue defending and voting for them..
as futile as that may be...???


12 Dec 20 - 01:58 PM (#4083141)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

“I recognized his integrity and principles,
but thought a younger leader with less negative baggage
would have been a better long term choice..

I could never join the Labour party,
but will continue defending and voting for them..
as futile as that may be...???”


Ha, sorry pfr, it’s Saturday night, FA on Telly, idling my time away on my iPad, bored shitless, I allowed myself the luxury of a bit of chain-yanking! Mea Culpa!

Those are my thoughts exactly. Although, like you, I’m not sure that Starmer’s the right man for the job, but I’m sure that he’s far more acceptable to the voters.


12 Dec 20 - 02:09 PM (#4083143)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

the person who is dividing the labour party now is Starmer, politically naive and incompetent,the easy way to have got rid of corbyn was make him a peer.Starmer is an idiot


12 Dec 20 - 02:21 PM (#4083144)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I still can't help suspecting an organised influx of tories
paid the minimal fee to vote Corbyn in as Labour leader...???


12 Dec 20 - 06:12 PM (#4083169)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And I can’t help thinking you could be right, pfr.


13 Dec 20 - 02:49 AM (#4083198)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I joined the labour party again when Corbyn became leader as did many other left wing minded people, i personally know many folk enthusiasts and performers who did so, none of us are tories,
i have subsequently left the labour party because of starmers political idiocy, PFR you talk uninformed twaddle


13 Dec 20 - 03:27 AM (#4083201)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 09 Dec 20 - 12:33 PM

...Please can we try and be civil when we disagree about politics




Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman - PM
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 02:49 AM

...PFR you talk uninformed twaddle


What's this, Dick? Do as I say, not as I do? Or does it just depend who is being uncivil?


13 Dec 20 - 04:25 AM (#4083202)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

no it is uniformed twaddler , that is not a personal attack it is a fact ,he has no stats to back his statement up


13 Dec 20 - 04:59 AM (#4083203)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I have proven your hypocrisy, Dick. No need for me to go any further as others can now see what you are doing.


13 Dec 20 - 05:14 AM (#4083204)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I did NOT vote for johnson, I voted for our excellent MP Chris Philp. The other 2 labour MPs for Croydon Central and North are useless.


13 Dec 20 - 05:33 AM (#4083205)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it.


13 Dec 20 - 05:35 AM (#4083206)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

hypocrisy? Cameron was responsible for brexit, without a referndum there would have been no vote
When i refer to PFR STATEMENT I am being polite, if i wanted to be rude i would call him a flamer or a troll, but i am being polite.
so i wont call him that, if i had been the silver tongued late departed MGM
i would have called him a vacuous booby, but i try to be a good boy and be polite, like teachers pet, so i restrain myself and say it is uniformed twaddle


13 Dec 20 - 05:40 AM (#4083207)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

you see a personal attack or being rude relates to insulting the person not confirming that what they said was uninformed, and therfore twaddle : silly idle talk : drivel. b : something insignificant or worthless according to the dictionary


13 Dec 20 - 06:06 AM (#4083210)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Doug Chadwick

I would have thought that saying someone is talking uninformed twaddle counted as 'genteel conversation' in the middle a political thread.

Why not take PFR's idea and run with it. Even with the drop in membership since Starmer took over from Corbyn, the Labour party has more members than the Conservatives, SNP and Lib Dems combined. It could afford to send a few over to swamp the Tories and get a Prime Minister more acceptable to them, albeit* the wrong political colour.


DC

*that bit was for Steve ;-)


13 Dec 20 - 06:08 AM (#4083212)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

here is some evidence that conservative remainers are wait for it, quote
Observer Opinium politics polls
Labour
Keir Starmer winning Tory Leave voters for Labour – poll

As the party leader decides whether to back any Brexit deal, a survey of 7,000 electors shows he has closed the gap with the Conservatives since the election last year
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month.
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/UK parliament/AFP/Getty Images
Michael Savage
Sat 12 Dec 2020 12.53 GMT

Last modified on Sat 12 Dec 2020 22.10 GMT

372

More Leave voters than Remainers have swung from the Tories to Labour since the last election, according to a major polling project that suggests Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has made some early progress in bridging the Brexit divide.

A large 7,000-strong poll, designed to examine the political changes that have taken place since Labour’s disastrous result, found that the party was showing signs of winning over some of those who backed the Tories last year.

The Tories won support from 70% of those who voted Leave and 20% of Remain voters at the 2019 election. Labour won 16% of Leave voters and 49% of Remain voters. The latest polling found that the Tories now have the support of 63% of those who voted Leave and 21% of Remain voters. Labour is backed by 20% of Leave voters and 53% of Remain voters.

It represents a swing to Labour from the Tories among Leave voters of 5.5 points. The swing among Remainers was just 1.5 points. The pollsters said that a significant part of the swing was down to Leave voters turning against the Tories, now saying they did not now know who they would vote for. Some 18% of Conservative Leave voters now say they do not know how they will vote.

Meanwhile, the net movement of Conservative voters to Labour since the election is roughly the same as the net movement of Green and Lib Dem voters to Labour – about 500,000 voters in each group. It challenges suggestions that Starmer has largely boosted Labour’s vote share by winning Lib Dem and Green voters.

The study, launched as part of a new Opinium ebook on the last election, comes with Labour poised to back any Brexit deal that is agreed with the EU. The move is causing unease at all levels of the party. Starmer has suggested he will order his MPs to back a deal in the “national interest”, making clear it is preferable to a no-deal outcome.

Chris Curtis, the senior research manager at Opinium, said: “This data will be particularly important for Labour to consider when deciding how to vote on a potential Brexit deal. The data shows that there are lots of Leave voters who are going off the Conservative party, but haven’t yet been won over by Labour. The party will want to avoid alienating them with the decision it makes.”

Several figures in the shadow cabinet, the unions and prominent backbenchers want the party to abstain in a Brexit deal vote, concerned that backing a deal will prevent Labour from criticising it in the future – while abstaining will not stop its passage.

However, Starmer’s team has been holding meetings with party figures for weeks in an attempt to prepare the ground for voting in favour of a deal. There is also a feeling among Starmer’s team that Remain voters are not as focused on Brexit as they once were, following the last election.

The Opinium study found that Starmer is doing better among Leave voters than the Labour party as a whole, suggesting that he may have the ability to reach some more Tory voters who are increasingly becoming dissatisfied with the party, but have yet to make the jump to Labour. Starmer’s approval rating among Leave voters was -5, with 27% approving of him and 32% disapproving.

A huge lead for the Tories among older voters at the last election is also showing evidence of closing. The Conservatives had a 38-point lead among those aged 65 and over. It remains high, but has closed to 26 points.

Labour has a marginal lead among working-class voters, following suggestions it was behind among that group at the election. It is now backed by 40% of so-called “C2DE” voters, compared with 38% for the Tories. Meanwhile, the Tories lead among the more affluent voters. It leads 42% to 38% among “ABC1” voters. The gender gap that emerged at the last election persists. The Tories lead 43% to 35% among men, while Labour leads 41% to 38% among women.

Curtis said: “Labour’s vote share has increased under the leadership of Keir Starmer, with the party now just two points behind the Conservatives. But what is more interesting are the trends underlying the swing back to the party. Labour is seeing greater swings towards them among older voters and Leave voters, the key groups they have struggled with in recent years. This indicates that some of the major divides that have haunted our politics for the past few years might be starting to fade.

“A key element seems to be the handling of the pandemic, with many Leave voters who backed the Tories last year thinking the government has done a bad job. The party is therefore only holding on to 70% of the Leave voters who backed them, as opposed to 78% of their Remain voters.”

Opinium polled about 7,000 people online between 27 November and 8 December."
some statistical evidence thatConservative remasiners are now joing keir starmer, why is it becuase he is really a tory?
.


13 Dec 20 - 06:10 AM (#4083213)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Have you nothing better to do Sandman???????????????????


13 Dec 20 - 06:12 AM (#4083214)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It did not go unnoticed, Doug, though I was initially more interested in the posts prior to yours. Things like that happen to me on a daily basis...However, at this moment in time I have to plan my trip to Morrison's as I have cooking to do, going forward. If you will...


13 Dec 20 - 06:14 AM (#4083215)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Billy Connelly is Infinitely more entertaining!!!


13 Dec 20 - 08:04 AM (#4083222)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Whatevet, Dick. Same reply to your PM.


13 Dec 20 - 08:16 AM (#4083225)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Bonzo, Billy Connolly, note spelling. plus was, the poor guy has dementure.


13 Dec 20 - 09:15 AM (#4083230)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Dementure, Dick? Are you saying that he has crazy false teeth? ;-)


13 Dec 20 - 09:19 AM (#4083232)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Spelling is irrelevant, he's bloody funny!!!


13 Dec 20 - 09:21 AM (#4083233)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Bonzo, Billy Connolly, note spelling. plus was, the poor guy has dementure.
If you're going to correct spelling, Connolly has dementia (Parkinson's disease)


13 Dec 20 - 09:47 AM (#4083235)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

He's just being his usual dreadful finger in the ear self!!!


13 Dec 20 - 09:58 AM (#4083237)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I can't be arsed reading Dick's petty grudge nonsenses yet..

maybe later...

However in the meantime consider this..

tory party has fewer members, but it has international backers with far more financial clout..

Labour membership vote fee was how much per person,
and how carefully vetted was each new voter...???

Corbyn's proposal for candidate, was a surprise gift for the left..

and an even bigger spoiler opportunity for the well funded tory right...


13 Dec 20 - 10:20 AM (#4083241)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

punk folk rocker, a closed mind .
well if you read them you would see that there are stats to back up the fact conservative voters are switching to keir starmer, you have a closed mind.
bad news for bonzoObserver Opinium politics polls
Labour
Keir Starmer winning Tory Leave voters for Labour – poll

As the party leader decides whether to back any Brexit deal, a survey of 7,000 electors shows he has closed the gap with the Conservatives since the election last year
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month.
Labour leader Keir Starmer speaking during a debate on new Covid tiers in parliament earlier this month. Photograph: Jessica Taylor/UK parliament/AFP/Getty Images
Michael Savage
Sat 12 Dec 2020 12.53 GMT

Last modified on Sat 12 Dec 2020 22.10 GMT

372

More Leave voters than Remainers have swung from the Tories to Labour since the last election, according to a major polling project that suggests Keir Starmer, the Labour leader, has made some early progress in bridging the Brexit divide.

A large 7,000-strong poll, designed to examine the political changes that have taken place since Labour’s disastrous result, found that the party was showing signs of winning over some of those who backed the Tories last year.

The Tories won support from 70% of those who voted Leave and 20% of Remain voters at the 2019 election. Labour won 16% of Leave voters and 49% of Remain voters. The latest polling found that the Tories now have the support of 63% of those who voted Leave and 21% of Remain voters. Labour is backed by 20% of Leave voters and 53% of Remain voters.

It represents a swing to Labour from the Tories among Leave voters of 5.5 points. The swing among Remainers was just 1.5 points. The pollsters said that a significant part of the swing was down to Leave voters turning against the Tories, now saying they did not now know who they would vote for. Some 18% of Conservative Leave voters now say they do not know how they will vote.

Meanwhile, the net movement of Conservative voters to Labour since the election is roughly the same as the net movement of Green and Lib Dem voters to Labour – about 500,000 voters in each group. It challenges suggestions that Starmer has largely boosted Labour’s vote share by winning Lib Dem and Green voters.

The study, launched as part of a new Opinium ebook on the last election, comes with Labour poised to back any Brexit deal that is agreed with the EU. The move is causing unease at all levels of the party. Starmer has suggested he will order his MPs to back a deal in the “national interest”, making clear it is preferable to a no-deal outcome.

Chris Curtis, the senior research manager at Opinium, said: “This data will be particularly important for Labour to consider when deciding how to vote on a potential Brexit deal. The data shows that there are lots of Leave voters who are going off the Conservative party, but haven’t yet been won over by Labour. The party will want to avoid alienating them with the decision it makes.”

Several figures in the shadow cabinet, the unions and prominent backbenchers want the party to abstain in a Brexit deal vote, concerned that backing a deal will prevent Labour from criticising it in the future – while abstaining will not stop its passage.

However, Starmer’s team has been holding meetings with party figures for weeks in an attempt to prepare the ground for voting in favour of a deal. There is also a feeling among Starmer’s team that Remain voters are not as focused on Brexit as they once were, following the last election.

The Opinium study found that Starmer is doing better among Leave voters than the Labour party as a whole, suggesting that he may have the ability to reach some more Tory voters who are increasingly becoming dissatisfied with the party, but have yet to make the jump to Labour. Starmer’s approval rating among Leave voters was -5, with 27% approving of him and 32% disapproving.

A huge lead for the Tories among older voters at the last election is also showing evidence of closing. The Conservatives had a 38-point lead among those aged 65 and over. It remains high, but has closed to 26 points.

Labour has a marginal lead among working-class voters, following suggestions it was behind among that group at the election. It is now backed by 40% of so-called “C2DE” voters, compared with 38% for the Tories. Meanwhile, the Tories lead among the more affluent voters. It leads 42% to 38% among “ABC1” voters. The gender gap that emerged at the last election persists. The Tories lead 43% to 35% among men, while Labour leads 41% to 38% among women.

Curtis said: “Labour’s vote share has increased under the leadership of Keir Starmer, with the party now just two points behind the Conservatives. But what is more interesting are the trends underlying the swing back to the party. Labour is seeing greater swings towards them among older voters and Leave voters, the key groups they have struggled with in recent years. This indicates that some of the major divides that have haunted our politics for the past few years might be starting to fade.

“A key element seems to be the handling of the pandemic, with many Leave voters who backed the Tories last year thinking the government has done a bad job. The party is therefore only holding on to 70% of the Leave voters who backed them, as opposed to 78% of their Remain voters.”

Opinium polled about 7,000 people online between 27 November and 8 December."
some statistical evidence that Conservative remasiners are now joing keir starmer, why is it becuase he is really a tory?
.


13 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM (#4083243)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

They will have been the same thousands that travelled all over the country singing Corbyns name.were they conservative infiltrators? what ridiculous twaddle from punk folk rocker


13 Dec 20 - 10:31 AM (#4083244)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

“so good, he posted it twice...” :-)

Party members don’t elect their party to government. Voters in General Elections do that.


13 Dec 20 - 10:39 AM (#4083245)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Bonzo take note and answer Bckwoodsmans, you elected boris johnson
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 13 Dec 20 - 05:33 AM

Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it.


13 Dec 20 - 10:42 AM (#4083246)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

yes posted twice.
so that when Punk, opens his eyes he will see the irony of his ridiculous assertion that conservative infiltrators joined the labour party to elect corbyn.
what utter twaddle and unsubstantiated twaddle to boot


13 Dec 20 - 10:49 AM (#4083248)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

it would appear that the conservatives won the last election because there was an electoral pact between farage and the conservatives, furthermore, backwoodsman
you made a statement that you cannot substantiate that corbyn lost the election by the biggest majority in living memory, more unsubstantiated twaddle, both you and punk talk twaddle, check your facts


13 Dec 20 - 11:06 AM (#4083250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"If you're going to correct spelling, Connolly has dementia (Parkinson's disease)"

Dementia is not Parkinson's disease, actually. Billy has the latter but I can find no reference to his having dementia.


13 Dec 20 - 11:20 AM (#4083251)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Take more water with it, Dick, or better still lay off it altogether - it’s making you very nasty.


13 Dec 20 - 11:21 AM (#4083253)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick's off on one of his obsessive episodes today..

No amount of rational persuasion will deter him from
willfully misconstruing my actual intended meaning..

His blinkers are yet again set to narrowest tunnel vision...

This was bound to happen when he carries grudges over from earlier in the week...

I should have joined the Labour party as an active member decades ago,
but he is a prime example of what I'd get too frustrated and annoyed dealing with..

I have low patience threshold for needy self indulgent petty egos..

My old mates in the local party are far more tolerant of the dysfunctional 'care in the community'
element of their fellow membership...


13 Dec 20 - 11:27 AM (#4083254)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - Anyone who cares about what you are best at - music,
would wish you'd spend more of your spare time and energy
updating your youtube channel...


13 Dec 20 - 11:33 AM (#4083255)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”Dementia is not Parkinson's disease, actually. Billy has the latter but I can find no reference to his having dementia.”

I thought that’s the condition he has too, Steve. We saw Billy at Sheffield City Hall a few years ago, just before his illness was made public, he was hilarious as usual, but we both commented that he seemed to ‘have summat up’, there were moments when he was clearly having difficulty recalling ‘the next bit’ in his routine. We commented that we thought it might be the last time we see him touring, and so it proved to be.

His swearing might not be everyone’s cup of tea, but it doesn’t bother us - we hear far worse in our local market place and shopping mall - but his observations of human behaviour, and his ability to find the humour in human frailty, are brilliant AFAWAC. Others’ may have a different view, and that’s OK.


13 Dec 20 - 11:47 AM (#4083258)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

You can have both, and Parkinson's in its latter stages can lead to dementia. But they are distinctive conditions.


13 Dec 20 - 12:10 PM (#4083260)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

My mum has dementia, but not even all dementias are the same.
My mum's is a specific type..
..but I can't remember what it's called..

It's all very complex to diagnose..

Here amongst mudcat's aging membership,
we have to stay aware and sympathetic.;
no matter how odd or annoying other mudcatters may become..

A healthy sense of humour is paramount...


13 Dec 20 - 12:21 PM (#4083262)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"Johnson is the Leader of the party, Bonz. If you vote for a party’s constituency candidate , that is effectively a vote for that party’s leader. You voted Tory, you voted for Johnson - man up and own it. "

What???????????????????????? I voted Conservative and am very very proud of it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


13 Dec 20 - 12:45 PM (#4083265)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

So you voted for the Party and, by virtue of voting for the Party of which he’s leader, you voted for Johnson. Thus my original point, and also the one you quote above, still stand.

BTW, appending multiple exclamation marks to a statement is not only very bad from the point of view of the use of punctuation, but it adds no weight whatever to the point you’re attempting to make.


13 Dec 20 - 01:25 PM (#4083267)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

where are your stats backwoodsman and punk to back up your twaddle.


13 Dec 20 - 01:29 PM (#4083268)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick...


13 Dec 20 - 01:30 PM (#4083269)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Quite so, pfr...


13 Dec 20 - 01:36 PM (#4083270)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - where is your imagination to comprehend hypothetical ideas

beyond your restricted over-literal limits of understanding...???


13 Dec 20 - 01:48 PM (#4083271)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Pfr, let him bleat and flap around. This is a discussion forum, not a court. It’s perfectly legitimate to state an opinion, and there is no compunction on anyone to ‘prove’ their opinion. They are what they are - opinions - nothing else.

The sensible majority understand that.


13 Dec 20 - 01:59 PM (#4083274)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

BWM - absolutely, he constantly makes himself look a right pompous buffoon,

every time he demands imperiously that other mudcatters must prove things to him...


13 Dec 20 - 02:07 PM (#4083275)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

However, just to set the record straight...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-2019-50765773?app=news.election.2019.story.50765773.page

From the above link...

”Labour, which has lost seats across the North, Midlands and Wales in places which backed Brexit in 2016, is facing its worst defeat since 1935.

I wasn’t born in 1935 so ‘in living memory’ works for me.


13 Dec 20 - 03:07 PM (#4083288)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I'm losing track of this...

I'm still a member of the union I joined almost 50 years ago. In the earlier times I got in trouble with the Gen Sec (Fred Jarvis) for trying to organise unofficial strikes. I got two very threatening letters from him in the mid-70s. My best union mate was Blair Peach, but his murder in 1979 knocked the stuffing out of me and I just stayed active but not an activist. He was a member of the SWP in the days when they were a real revolution party, but I didn't hold with that and I didn't join. He was the nicest, kindest and gentlest man you could wish to meet, but he was the very divil in union meetings and he never let go of his socialist principles, living his life as you'd fully expect a true socialist to live. He was also a superb teacher of children with special needs. I've always been far to the left of the union establishment but I'll die a member. I had to bite my lip when it came to my fellow teachers joining more docile and right-wing unions, but I could scarcely tolerate working with people who refused to join a union at all, and they knew it. The union movement allowed Thatcher to demolish what I saw as real trade unionism, and my view has always been that the working class in this country has been treated much the worse in consequence. We've ended up with what weasel Tories call "the flexible labour market": temporary, part-time, seasonal, sack-you-at-will, zero-hours, fake apprenticeships, rock-bottom pay, gangmasters...

I joined Labour when Corbyn was elected. He is of the left, he is unspun and he is a man of principle. After the 2017 election, in which he did incredibly well, he was perceived by the Tory populist right as a threat. So, for the next couple of years, he was unscrupulously targeted big-time, both from within his own party (all those disaffected Blairites and Brownites, not to speak of that disreputable bunch of sour-faced, lying antisemitism-accusers) and without, the Board Of Deputies (who no-one ever voted for) and the scumbags of the tabloids. Why, the actual Tory Party hardly had to do a thing. You guys who keep bleating on that Jeremy was "unelectable" always fail to qualify that by admitting that even the Angel bloody Gabriel would have been "unelectable" in the face of that onslaught. The campaign against him was unscrupulous and concerted, positively conspiratorial, and predicated on lies. I'm staying in the party, though I'm rock-solid certain that Starmer is a born follower, a born caver-in and a born loser. That's just me. Thanks for reading.


13 Dec 20 - 03:22 PM (#4083291)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve - no.. thank you.. that was a bloody good read...


13 Dec 20 - 03:29 PM (#4083293)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"BTW, appending multiple exclamation marks to a statement is not only very bad from the point of view of the use of punctuation, but it adds no weight whatever to the point you’re attempting to make."

It is of no consequence to me!!


13 Dec 20 - 03:54 PM (#4083294)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve I ought to clarify..

When I was taking the piss out of the 'care in the community' element of my local Labour party members,

..it's not referring to politics [ie, left or right of the party], but personalities..

Bloody awkward time and energy draining self important people with psychological 'issues'..

Labour, being a compassionate inclusive fraternity, seems to attract a lot of 'em..

Then mix that with cider and waccy baccy.. it's a nightmare putting up with them..

I've never had sufficient patience.

Maybe, it's just worse in the south west towns I grew up in...???


13 Dec 20 - 05:10 PM (#4083297)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well I've seen similar things down yer in Bude, where the local Labour Party is currently tearing itself to bits (and it isn't exactly over-populated...). Once it becomes ashes maybe I'll supply the phoenix, but at the moment I really can't be arsed with it. Folk music seems at times to be the same sort of magnet... But my mum and dad, rest 'em now, were both Labour Party people and even as an early teen I was out there taking numbers for the canvassers at the polling station and having tea and butties at the party HQ (a terraced house in Wolseley Street). My dad and his mate were Labour councillors in our home town. It was unthinkable to not be in a trade union. Labour may not be in a good place but at least I'm in the tent pissing out and not outside pissing in. It's my party and I'll cry if I want to...

Just remembered...Phoenix....That was the name of the special school (as we called 'em then) at Mile End where Blair Peach worked. The kids there all loved Blair to bits, and they came to his funeral, along with 22000 others... we all sang the Internationale...


13 Dec 20 - 05:19 PM (#4083300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

pfr Please stop telling me what to do.
i have spent the last five hours working on a festival completion grant form. i had to this in 2019 and now have to do it all over again.
do you organise anything, probably not, you have no idea of the work that goes in to providing music and gigs for people
well kindly do not tell me what to do, and kindly stop calling me names


13 Dec 20 - 05:32 PM (#4083303)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Ye gods...


13 Dec 20 - 06:03 PM (#4083306)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Steve - as I was saying...


13 Dec 20 - 06:04 PM (#4083307)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

It's at times like this I can appreciate the logic of limiting these threads.


13 Dec 20 - 08:16 PM (#4083317)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Do that, Dave, and you might not hear the rest of me life story...Bejaysus, this Mozzers five-quid Nero d'Avola ain't half bad... Did I tell you that I've actually been to Avola... and that me mum for ten years ran the best chippy in Radcliffe...and that I bashed the spuds for her (well underage) for seven and a tanner a week...


14 Dec 20 - 01:24 AM (#4083332)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

The BBC can predict what they like before the election ..they were wrong it was not the worst defeat since 1935, check your facts you still have not provided any proof or stats to back up your comment. a bbc prediction before an election is not proof.
punk there is no evidence whatsoever that the labour party was infiltrated by conservatives to elect jeremy corbyn


14 Dec 20 - 03:32 AM (#4083342)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I may be going into yer actual mozzers later this week, Steve. They have cocked up big time on staff discount for retired employees and it seems my discount card can only be used in store currently. If it's not sorted out soon expect to see a news story about mozzers forcing pensioners to risk going in store ;-)


14 Dec 20 - 03:57 AM (#4083344)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Sand - if and when you fall off your high horse,
you'll have been up there so long,
you'll land neck deep in a mound of horse shit...

You are behaving even more erratic and unstable than usual..

I'm laughing my bollocks off that you are still so crankily triggered
by a tongue in cheek suggestion of tory vote rigging to select Corbyn..

Calm down, before you do yourself a mischief..

[btw.. as conspiracy theories go,
there is actually more plausibility thousands of tories paid the affordable fee to vote for jezza..]


14 Dec 20 - 04:17 AM (#4083346)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

This isn’t a court, pfr. Nobody has to ‘prove’ anything here, except in the mind of a lonely trouble-maker and troll. Ignore him and let him continue making a fool of himself - he’ll eventually get tired of it and start working on some other victim.


14 Dec 20 - 06:15 AM (#4083357)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

tongue in cheek, perhaps you should have made that clear, uniformed twaddle and the same from back woodsman.
the tronblemakers are the people who put up provocative statements punk does it all the time then we have you talking garbage about election defeats , check your facts. you call me lonely
you know nothing about me.
I am far from lonely.
throughout the pandemic i have been be making live music with friends.
doing zoom gigs etc
doing outside gigs. regular music with friends
you really talk uninformed twaddle . ever heard the phrase empty vessels make most sound,
I am also lucky to live in ireland where trad music is appreciated every night i can hear two to 3 hours of good music on radio


14 Dec 20 - 06:57 AM (#4083362)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

And this is Brexit & other UK political topics because?

Just continuing the previous hypocrisy as far as I can see.


14 Dec 20 - 08:05 AM (#4083367)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”ever heard the phrase empty vessels make most sound,”

Oh, the delicious irony! Hilarious!


14 Dec 20 - 08:13 AM (#4083368)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

I suggest a course of Billy Joe Shaver!!!


14 Dec 20 - 08:19 AM (#4083369)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

So the EU now sees a deal as possible. It says the UK has made a key concession:

Barnier said Downing Street now accepted the principle that as either side develops their environmental, social and labour standards over time there should be a way to ensure that trade flows are not distorted by the failure of the other to reciprocate. He described the solution as “unilateral measures”, or tariffs, which would probably be applied after a period of arbitration.


I think that is key to any deal. Boris can claim a success because the UK is not automatically bound to EU changes. Equeally the EU ican claim a success in saying it can impose tariffs. Both sides being able to claim a success is very useful in negotiations.

Now the EU does not like this idea on fishing:


The UK has now suggested that pelagic fish are removed from any deal with Brussels and that shares are instead negotiated through the North-East Atlantic Fisheries Commission, of which Iceland and Norway are members. Pelagic fish refers to species that swim closer to the surface and accounts for approximately 80% of the value of fish caught by EU fleet.


However, even the the EU is unhappy, that hides an important UK concession: the UK would not be the sole arbiter of who can catch what fish. So this "UK waters are for the UK" has grown more subtle.


14 Dec 20 - 11:10 AM (#4083392)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"you should have made that clear"

Dick - no.. you should read other members posts calmly, in good humour,
and when necessary with imagination,
without filtering every word through your own resentments..

Most vital though, you need to show some reasonable self control,
and respect for mudcat community.

You are just only one of a diverse membership of equals.
You may be a good folk artist and festival organiser,
but that does not grant you any special privileges.

How dare you keep on vaingloriously demanding that other mudcatters must account themselves to your higher authority..

You are by no means pretty or famous enough to get away with such persistent outrageous diva behaviour..

It is you who creates a trail of disruptive rancour
in just about every thread you inflict yourself upon...

So ffs lighten up...


15 Dec 20 - 02:07 AM (#4083508)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Sandman - I have deleted your PM without opening it . DO NOT PM ME. I have no interest in any of your childish idiocy.


15 Dec 20 - 03:08 AM (#4083515)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Bonzo, I know I'm going to regret asking but what's a course of Billy Joe Shaver?


15 Dec 20 - 03:27 AM (#4083517)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’d be interested to know too, Dave! I know BJS is/was a Country singer, but his relevance here is completely lost on me...


15 Dec 20 - 04:03 AM (#4083519)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Backwoodsman punkfolk rocker
Tha còmhradh y0ur a ’cur mo chuimhne orwells newspeak CÉARD IOMLÁN NA mBALLAÍ


15 Dec 20 - 04:14 AM (#4083522)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Illegitimes non carborundum, chaps.


15 Dec 20 - 04:37 AM (#4083524)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Barking dogs seldom bite.
Defintion of Backwoodsman, According to dictionary ,pleas note not mt opinion
North American
an inhabitant of backwoods, especially one regarded as uncouth or backward.


15 Dec 20 - 05:30 AM (#4083530)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Bonzo, I know I'm going to regret asking but what's a course of Billy Joe Shaver?

A course of Billy Joe Shaver (RIP) songs!!


15 Dec 20 - 06:23 AM (#4083533)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

OK. :-S


15 Dec 20 - 07:26 AM (#4083538)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - ok so you are bi-lingual in complete bollox - so what..

I am going to ignore you in this thread until/unless you get back on topic,
and post relevant sensible contributions to the debate.

We are after all more or less on the same side against the tories.

I trust we can resume fairly good humoured amicable tolerant interaction as mudcat mates,
sooner rather than later..

That's up to you...


15 Dec 20 - 07:48 AM (#4083543)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

so saying Corbyn was voted elected as leader of the labour party by conservatives is reasonable sensible debate? or was it a joke? you cannot have it both ways. if iy was a joke then its ok for you to make childish idiotic jokes, but everyone else has to make sensible debate
to quote yourself
How dare you keep on vaingloriously demanding that other mudcatters must account themselves to your higher authority..
so its ok for you to vaingloroiusly insist that others account for themselves and debate sensibly, but not yourself. you are a booby who talks twaddle


15 Dec 20 - 08:36 AM (#4083555)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick -


15 Dec 20 - 12:52 PM (#4083591)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

?????? ???? ??? ??

kutta bhonk raha hai


15 Dec 20 - 01:02 PM (#4083592)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Don't know what Kutta BHONK raha rai means but in Hindi Kutta BHOK raha rai means I am afraid according to my good lady who speaks the language.

Perhaps he meant kutta bhag raha rai which translates (Iam told) as I am being bored.


15 Dec 20 - 01:07 PM (#4083594)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

You are just arguing and for arguments sake and purposely being obstreperous, Dick. You know you are on thin ice here anyway. Why risk plunging into the cold?


15 Dec 20 - 01:08 PM (#4083595)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Raggy - whatever he is, he has similar disruptive attention-seeking behaviour issues
as the most problematic 5-year olds my wife teaches...


15 Dec 20 - 01:55 PM (#4083598)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

Dick, if they aren't playing the way you want to play then go find a different thread to participate in. Don't start a new one, that won't fly. Just find something else to do. And the rest of you could pull up your socks and just ignore Dick.


15 Dec 20 - 02:17 PM (#4083601)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Hey, include me out of that admonishment, Maggie! :-)


16 Dec 20 - 05:20 AM (#4083686)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I am intending to get vaccinated as soon as possible,while i have a good immune system, i feel it would be unfair on the vulnerable in the community to pass on a virus which could possibly result in another persons death, undoubtedly there are people out there who muight regard this as idiotic, i am assuming vaccination prevents the passing on of covid 19.
i am not an expert on the subject , but i am sure there are experts who regularly contribute to this thread, who know about the dangers and the safety of the vaccines


16 Dec 20 - 05:30 AM (#4083688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Would have been better in the coronavirus thread, Dick. Incidentally, as things stand that isn't a safe assumption. The vaccine preventing illness is one thing. Killing off the virus if it gets in your body, so that you can't spread it, is an entirely other.


16 Dec 20 - 05:30 AM (#4083689)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

There is no certainty that getting vaccinated will prevent you catching the disease or passing it to others.
If you get vaccinated it should prevent you ending up in hospital, which will mean the health service can treat more cancer patients and replace more hips and knees.


16 Dec 20 - 06:35 AM (#4083695)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

jos, well that is a good reason for getting vaccinated i would have thought. . i wanted to hear from the people who contribute to this thread


16 Dec 20 - 06:57 AM (#4083700)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”There is no certainty that getting vaccinated will prevent you catching the disease or passing it to others.
If you get vaccinated it should prevent you ending up in hospital, which will mean the health service can treat more cancer patients and replace more hips and knees.”


Jos, that’s pretty much my layman’s understanding of vaccination, and seems a good reason to get it when it becomes available for my age-group/health situation.


16 Dec 20 - 07:27 AM (#4083705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Vaccines work by promoting antibody reaction in the body, just as catching the disease does. Whilst we are still in the short-term, the fact that there have been extremely few documented cases of catching it more than once (and you don't necessarily have to believe every single one, as some people just love to be special), it seems that immunity lasts at least for a good few months, if not longer. Another thing is that the vaccines appear to promote a stronger immune response than catching the disease. The issue of what exactly the vaccine does or doesn't do is something that applies to many, if not most or all, vaccines. We can't carry on living life in that worrying way. Have the vaccine when it's your turn then relax just somewhat.


16 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM (#4083708)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”Have the vaccine when it's your turn then relax just somewhat”

That’s my policy. Thanks Steve.


16 Dec 20 - 08:40 AM (#4083717)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

”Have the vaccine when it's your turn then relax just somewhat”

Mine is to have the vaccine, but not really to relax somewhat. That will only come when the level of vaccinated people is above perhaps 50% or we find the vaccine does significantly reduce the likelihood you are a carrier. (Which my best guess it that it will, but let's await evidence.)


16 Dec 20 - 10:18 AM (#4083733)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm between 60 and 65..

A kinda no mans land waiting room...

It's going to be a very anxious over cautious long time in the queue for my vaccine,
while the tories are forcing my 'over 50s' wife
to teach potentially increasingly infectious school kids every working day...


16 Dec 20 - 10:46 AM (#4083734)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

You need more like 70% vaccinated to create the kind of "herd immunity" that has been established for measles and other diseases. That discussion is making the rounds now in the US - how many vaccinated before the social distancing requirements and such can expire.


16 Dec 20 - 11:12 AM (#4083742)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

It seems sensible to me to keep social-distancing, hand-washing, and mask-wearing (sorry Steve, I’m a belt, braces and pieces of string below the knees kinda guy!) even after vaccination. I’m 73 and diabetic, and I’m taking no chances.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


16 Dec 20 - 11:21 AM (#4083745)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

You need more like 70% vaccinated to create the kind of "herd immunity" ....

I agree, Silly, and it may be more of a problem in the US than the UK (but it could be bad enough here): What do you do if you can get to 50-60% vaccination and then cannot really increase the level further because of anti-vaxxers and the like? Also, it is important to remember that there is probably 5-10% who can't take the vaccine even if they want to, like those with immune system problems.

I would certainly prefer us to get to maybe 70% before relaxing at all, but if the resistance to people taking the vaccine is high enough, I might have to relax before that.


16 Dec 20 - 12:20 PM (#4083756)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Both you and Maggie haven't quite got this right. Herd immunity for measles requires at least 92 in every hundred people to be immune. We've had outbreaks in the UK when the number has dropped into the 80s. Fortunately, immunity is long-lived. The threshold for flu is much lower. For certain childhood diseases, such as whooping cough, the overall population threshold isn't a great way of looking at it: it's far more important that children and young parents have the highest percentages, as they overwhelmingly are the children's most frequent contacts. Another factor is that herd immunity can diminish over a short time if (as we might suspect for coronavirus, though we don't yet know) immunity is short-lived or lost as people age with a consequent weakening of their immune system. I wouldn't be hanging your hopes on that 70% number if I were you. That's about the median figure of the estimates, but that figure may well be confounded by interventions such as lockdowns and shielding, both of which, for very good reasons, artificially keep the transmission rate down, thereby extending the time it will take for herd immunity to kick in.


16 Dec 20 - 12:39 PM (#4083761)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I am not relying on the 70% figure, Steve. Back in March, according the oracle that is "The Daily Mail" Sir Patrick Vallance said around 60 per cent of the population will need to catch the virus to build up a national tolerance strong enough to stop the virus circulating. I am sure I could find similar reporting from other papers. but that is the one that came up first. It may be 60%. It may be 70%, it may be 93%, or 43%: we really have very little way of knowing yet. Until we have at least one substantial community with widespread infection or vaccination you are essentially trying to estimate where a curve 'flattens off' while you are still on a piece with a high gradient.

But I was really trying to make a different point. It was if you need to have a certain level to achieve herd immunity, what do you do when, for whatever reason, you cannot get to that percentage? That will require a judgement call at some time.


16 Dec 20 - 01:34 PM (#4083777)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Unfortunately, we can't rely on flattening or plummeting curves to predict herd immunity: we had both in the summer, remember. Assuming that immunity lasts at least a few months once you've had the virus (unsafe, but hey), and that the vaccine stalls transmission as well as preventing illness (unsafe, but hey), and that restrictions help to keep the reinfection rate low (more likely than not but not settled science), we could see a sharp tailing-off of cases in the next few months. I'm up for hanging on to that one...


17 Dec 20 - 03:03 AM (#4083847)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

That's a somewhat different thing, Steve. It is a bit like the difference between sin(x) and sin-1(x). We would not trying to work out what the herd immunity threshold (HIT) is from the R, as we have to at the moment, where

HIT= 1 - 1/R0

That is really difficult because R0 has to be estimated from all the local R values which vary across the country and are affected by policies like tiers and lockdowns. That reciprocal also means quite a small change in the R value can have a large change in the HIT, which is why we cannot be very certain what the range of the percentage for herd immunity is.

Rather, we are working from the opposite end: given we have a certain level of immunity (via infections and vaccines), what effect is that having on R?

It is admittedly a little over 40 years since I worked on this sort of stuff, but as far as I can tell the fundamental modelling hasn't changed that much.   In those days we had to model essentially a population and now the modelling is more based on large numbers of interacting populations, so that adds a lot of variation and sophistication I haven't worked with at all, but the heart of modelling does seem to be similar.


17 Dec 20 - 03:34 AM (#4083849)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

You just need to ensure that you mingle with the right herd.


17 Dec 20 - 09:28 AM (#4083868)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

We are still dealing with a mass of uncertainties here. Other factors, of which we know not a lot, are the longevity of the virus in the environment, and how "catching" it is (to be a bit less technical than you). We need mass vaccination and we need to be bloody tough on vaccine refusers. The herd immunity calculations can come later.


17 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM (#4083874)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

however not avoiding paying tax ensures that the government cannot afford to pay nurses more money, there is a shortage of nurses right now paying more money to nurses might ensure less people die,   Croydon DOG WITH 3 LEGS think he is giving helpful advice, but his tax advice is entirely for selfish people, typical of the present conservative administration.
why is NHS underfunded, not enough tax payers money, undoubtedly i will be called a childish idiot by the usual suspects,but what i am advocating is patriotic in the best sense of the word


18 Dec 20 - 02:52 AM (#4083959)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

then there is the owner of the daily mail, viscount harmsworth, a tax exile, he is responsible indirectly along with people who show how to avoid tax, for the underfunding of the nhs and the lack of nurses.it is like long distance manslaughter


18 Dec 20 - 09:21 PM (#4084097)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: robomatic

Brexit: The Teabag Analogy


18 Dec 20 - 10:38 PM (#4084109)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

thats very good robomatic


20 Dec 20 - 12:56 PM (#4084321)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Did anyone else hear Bozzer on the box yesterday saying this government had always followed medical advice? Maybe I imagined it. Surely not even he could lie so blatantly.


21 Dec 20 - 02:27 AM (#4084397)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

now the squit has really hit the fan , anyone know much about the new variant of covid in the uk


21 Dec 20 - 03:04 AM (#4084400)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

dave i dont think boris know the differnce between lies and truth, is it possible he is a psychopath


21 Dec 20 - 04:59 AM (#4084411)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

anyone know much about the new variant of covid in the uk

I don't think anyone in the general public does yet, Sandman. All we know is that it is easier to catch (which means its R value is much higher, which means it will double in much less time.) But beyond that, there is little information.

I feel unhappily confident that a national lockdown will be needed by the end of January at the latest. Although France and other countries are saying the halt of lorries etc is for 48 hours I very much doubt it. The 48 hours is merely to work out what to do and will be followed by a longer blockade either in total or for less essential goods. So we might find foodstuffs, for example, much less readily available than we are used to.

Moreover, I expect such blockades to spread. Other countries do not want the new strain, and I think many will take similar actions on passenger flights, for example. Goods are rather less of an issue simply because fewer people are moving into and out of the UK.

The essential difference between New Zealand, Asia and much of the rest of the southern hemisphere when compared to the UK and the rest of Europe, is that they took it very seriously on day 1 and we did not. I get the impression Europe is attempting to learn that lesson with the new strain. Whether they can do so effectively while the old strain is still active is another matter, but it looks like they are trying.


21 Dec 20 - 06:23 AM (#4084424)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

While I am sure that what they say about the new variant being more virulent is true, I am not convinced that it is the sole cause of rapid spread in London and the SE. They have known about the mutation since September and it is already elsewhere in the UK. Surely keeping the area in tier 2 when it was obvious more restrictions were warranted has a lot to do with it. Keeping London out of lockdown was a political decision and now that has come to bite them on the bum they are looking for excuses.


21 Dec 20 - 06:54 AM (#4084428)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Just a minor correction to that Dave, since one of the scientists I was   listening to made the same slip and then carefully corrected himself: the new strain is not technically more virulent (as far as we know) because that refers to how damaging it is when you get it. It is, however, more easily transmitted.


21 Dec 20 - 10:31 AM (#4084451)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Thanks, Dave. Better coming from you than Nigel ;-)


21 Dec 20 - 12:02 PM (#4084462)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

My ambitions are not so lofty!


21 Dec 20 - 01:48 PM (#4084476)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Boris: We are having Christmas. It would be inhuman not to.

Scientists: We can't really, the NHS would melt down in January.

Boris: Oh, shit. How can I back out now then?

Scientists: Well, there is a new varient that transmits quicker..

Boris: Yes, yes! We'll use that excuse.

Political advisers: Errrr, we are not sure that is a good id....

Boris: Course it is. I can't see anything wrong with it. Sorry nation.?? I have had news. We have a super spreading virus and have to shut everything.

Macron: Is that right, Boris?

Boris: Yes, it is. We are sooooo contagious I had no choice but to cancel Christmas.

Macron (and the rest of the EU): In that case we have to shut all our borders.

Boris: oh fu....


24 Dec 20 - 02:22 AM (#4084810)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

So supposedly the deal is done and we will be told something about it in about 50 minutes time. That means now is a good time for rash predictions!

Kipling advised that when meeting Triumph and Disaster to treat those two imposters just the same. I am sure that will apply here. Some will proclaim a great Triumph - not least Boris! - but many more will denounce it as a betrayal, notably Farage and a good proportion of the ERG. Their protests will count for nothing in the short term, since Starmer will whip Labour to vote for it. (He *might* risk a free vote, but I think it extremely unlikely.)

Starmer's speeches in Parliament will all be about how poor a deal it is, how it sells the country short and is almost the worst possible outcome. But no-deal is worse, and that is why he will support the deal. It is a tricky stance, but gives him the best positioning for potential supporters, whether they voted Leave or Remain.

So I don't see the UK voting against the deal.

There is a possibility, maybe even quite a large probability, of an EU country using their veto to stop the deal, but this will largely be posturing to make a political point, and perhaps get more funding from the rest of the EU; I think all the EU states will agree before the year is out.

The deal is actually about trade and security. Of the two, I think the security is more important, but I expect the media to concentrate on the trade aspect. Not that trade is unimportant, but I think any hiatus would be addressed much more quickly than a breakdown in the security relationships.


24 Dec 20 - 03:24 AM (#4084815)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Don't know about Brexit. Here in Dover we are just waiting for Mendit.


24 Dec 20 - 08:16 AM (#4084831)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

what is it like in dover tell us


24 Dec 20 - 08:22 AM (#4084832)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Bloody awful. The town is gridlocked with cross channel traffic. Makes it very difficult for vehicles to make their way around town.

26 French firefighters along with 10,000 test kits, arrived early today to help with the backlog.


24 Dec 20 - 01:04 PM (#4084859)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

God knows why Starmer has committed Labour to vote for this deal. I've just put up with Johnson lying in his teeth about how we've taken back control, etc. We have not. We will abide by EU regulations or suffer if we stray from them. We've lost so much and gained next to nothing. Or nothing at all.


24 Dec 20 - 02:21 PM (#4084869)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

”God knows why Starmer has committed Labour to vote for this deal”

Because the alternative- No Deal - is simply too dreadful to contemplate? Because, as usual, Johnson had left it until the last minute so that he could claim it’s the best deal available, there was no alternative?


24 Dec 20 - 02:46 PM (#4084871)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: McGrath of Harlow

Boris's heritage - the man who achieved Brexit. And destroyed the United Kingdom.

Should have stuck with Have I Got News for You.

Boris the Bald, very soon now.


24 Dec 20 - 03:05 PM (#4084879)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

We could and should have had a deal months ago. Both sides have a share of the blame for that. Hopefully it will be accepted by all the parties. Of course it would be nice to have some details. The devil is in the detail.

Meanwhile, the police have finally managed to restore some order to the traffic in Dover. Port traffic queuing in just one lane of the one way system, allowing town traffic to move. Still lots queuing on the A20 route into town plus all those at Manston airfield.

Rumours are that the French firemen who arrived to help with testing were seen with fishing rods. You have to keep an eye on them.


24 Dec 20 - 04:03 PM (#4084893)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

This morning while waiting for the 'expected' deal to be announced,
I had to nip to the bathroom..

While standing in front of the bog, I let out a squeaky little two tone fart
which surprised me,
because it sounded like my arse just whispered "brex-it"...!!!

Is this an omen...???


24 Dec 20 - 06:48 PM (#4084911)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

all the best to all the peace campaigners, care workers, homeless, trade unionists, refugees, community activists, environmentalists and tireless anti-racists who keep positivity and hope alive. and, obviously, f**k the rest of you eejits, every one.


24 Dec 20 - 07:06 PM (#4084913)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

pfr, you just channeled Catspaw.


25 Dec 20 - 03:55 AM (#4084936)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

and nobody lived happily ever after


25 Dec 20 - 04:40 AM (#4084937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

i think crbyn would have done better, however i have only looked superficially, , but it could be a lot worse, has the whole thing been a storm in a teacup.
border at northern ireland ports that is good, from an irish perspective it could be much worse


25 Dec 20 - 06:20 AM (#4084941)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

And a merrie Christemas!!!


25 Dec 20 - 07:08 AM (#4084944)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

I think the line "peace on earth and good will to all men" needs an airing!


25 Dec 20 - 08:38 AM (#4084950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

At least Brexit has made the UK think more about globalism and how to apply it or not on a case by case basis. Overall its been a pain in the arse.


27 Dec 20 - 02:59 AM (#4085121)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Ave we got are cuntry back yet?


27 Dec 20 - 03:46 AM (#4085122)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

no your country is owned by the multinationals and the land owning aristocracy including the church of england


27 Dec 20 - 06:31 AM (#4085134)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Provoked by someone I heard on Broadcasting House this morning (as I always like to own up to being unoriginal), I'd say that when you hear what a great trade deal we've achieved, it's worth remembering that in order to get it we had to ditch a much better trade deal, the one called "being a member of the EU."


27 Dec 20 - 09:01 AM (#4085145)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

"i think crbyn would have done better"

And for your next joke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


27 Dec 20 - 11:01 AM (#4085156)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Good opinion piece from Will Hutton in The Observer

Yes, it is opinion. It also happens to be mainly true. The opening shot is particularly painful

The dream is over. On New Year’s Day, the curtain comes down on Britain’s long engagement with Europe’s noblest and greatest effort at collaboration and liberty. Our freedoms are to be slashed and an immense bureaucracy imposed on us. Next Friday Britons will lose the freedom to live, work, and trade in goods and services as they choose throughout the EU. Once natural rights are to be torched.

I can do little but shake my head in disbelief and curse those who brought us to this :-(


27 Dec 20 - 12:06 PM (#4085169)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Yeah but Mr Will Hutton,apart from that things are not to bad.

It will be a good few years before we will be able to judge if we are better or worse for leaving the EU. I thought maybe 5 years but now it will probably be longer due to the huge financial problems as a result of covid.

I voted to remain and I have never been convinced that there are going to be huge financial benefits to our leaving. We will have to see once things settle down.

Yet again he cannot let the vote go. The many ways in which people like to count it.Labour let that genie out of the bottle in 1975, not forgetting that we nearly always end up with a government which the majority of the country have not voted for.


27 Dec 20 - 12:26 PM (#4085175)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

And whoever you vote for, the government always gets in.


27 Dec 20 - 12:28 PM (#4085176)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

A bit like how we ended up with brexit then, Rain Dog.


27 Dec 20 - 01:28 PM (#4085193)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'd have been less suspicious of brexit,
if it had been the Labour party who had propsed and campainged for it,
instead of posh rich tories, farage, ukip, britain first, etc...


27 Dec 20 - 05:14 PM (#4085234)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

.. but the real alarm siren for me,
was when trump and his cult of cronies started bigging up farage and brexit..

.. not that surprising if putin and Cchina are also fully in favour
of breaking up and destabilising Europe...???


30 Dec 20 - 02:42 AM (#4085626)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

What are we all going to do with our last 2 days in the EU then? I'm going to eat and drink all the European leftovers from Christmas :-)

Post Brexit? Only one option really - Instead of remainers we can become rejoiners! OK, it may not be on as good terms as we had but must be better than Bozzers "deal".


30 Dec 20 - 03:33 AM (#4085630)
Subject: BS: incompetent british prime minsters
From: The Sandman

For many years this honour seemed to belong to Callaghan , who could not sort out a dustmans strike and let Thatxcher in to power.
however Cameron surpassed, sunny jim, by allowing a referendum on the EU,


30 Dec 20 - 03:39 AM (#4085631)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Bonzo not a joke. i understand why a capitalist lackey dislikes corbyn , because corbyn unlike you has principles you are the person whose only consideration when investing is how much money you can make


30 Dec 20 - 04:11 AM (#4085636)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave the Gnome

Should be in the British politics thread surely.

In the meanwhile my vote goes to Bozzer . "Call me Dave" made a catastrophic blunder with the referendum, as did Blair with the Iraq war, but aside from that he was pretty bland.


30 Dec 20 - 06:04 AM (#4085646)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

I simply can't understand why Starmer is whipping Labour MPs to vote in favour of this deal. When the inevitable happens and things go belly-up, Johnson will be able to turn round and say, well, you did vote for it...

This is a stinkin' Tory deal and the Tories alone must own it (I note that all the other parliamentary parties are going to vote against). Starmer was the fence-sitter par excellence over a second referendum, and now he's being pusillanimous in failing to do what an opposition is supposed to do, oppose bad government policies. He's a bloody disaster for my party. I'm considering my position here...


30 Dec 20 - 06:29 AM (#4085648)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force

Edward Heath. Tricked us into Europe on such disastrous terms that even Labour tried to renegotiate, with as much success as you might expect.


30 Dec 20 - 06:54 AM (#4085653)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

yes, i've just watched ian blackford speaking in the debate. he was very impressive in making an unanswerable case for rejecting the deal, particularly for scotland. he dealt with the 'muttering' 'lying' 'shame on you' 'deceitful' tories with contempt. he noted that every party in scotland has united to oppose the tories - including scottish labour. Not one labour mp stood up to challenge him - or to support him. keir starmer sat motionless throughout - utterly discredited. his support for the tory project revealed as a cowardly, narrow, politically cynical, useless stunt.

i left the party a few months back - our brief flirtation with progressive and principled politics having been killed off by the dark forces of 'labour' rightwingers - and joined the greens yesterday.

happy new year everyone


30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM (#4085656)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. I'd say that it's not possible to blame Heath (if you really must blame anybody) exclusively. The Labour Party connived, as did the electorate.

The Cameron regime put the poorest in this country through years of miserable austerity, which didn't have the effect he desired and which history will judge to have been completely unnecessary. His hubris convinced him that he would win the referendum. Instead, he pitched us into four useless years of wrangling and a dishonourable and shabby exit from the best trading bloc (among many other of its positive attributes) we could ever have belonged to. He gets my vote, though he is facing stiff competition from the present incumbent, and he will no doubt soon be overtaken in the crass stupidity stakes.


30 Dec 20 - 07:04 AM (#4085657)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I left the Labour party a few weeks back on principle. I was a member of the Greens too but cancelled my membership there due to an administrative cock up that proved they couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. When Labour return to their core values and stop pandering to the ludicrous right wing Israeli lobby I may rejoin.


30 Dec 20 - 07:11 AM (#4085658)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw

And speaking of the Cameron years, don't get me started on the inhuman and humiliating treatment that millions of sick, disabled and unemployed people had to endure under Iain Duncan-Smith, not to speak of the "liberation" of the labour market via zero-hours contracts, fake apprenticeship schemes, forcing millions to declare themselves to be "self-employed" (equals no sick pay, no holiday pay, no maternity pay) and the stripping away of workers' rights.


30 Dec 20 - 07:13 AM (#4085659)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I don't envy Starmer's position at all in this. But if people say they can't understand why he is voting as he is, they are saying if no-deal happens they do not recognise that tbe Tories will claim for the next 50 years that they had a deal but Labour wrecked it, so all blame is on Labour. After all, look how much mileage they have got out of 'The Winter of Discontent'.

Now, maybe since the ERG have said they will support the deal the arithmetic has changed a bit and the risks are lower, but do not doubt that if Labour voted against a deal and we ended up in no deal, Labour would be saddled with all the blame for the rest of our lives and beyond.


30 Dec 20 - 07:43 AM (#4085663)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

This YouGov poll is pertinent to the discussion:

"According to new polling by YouGov, Britons overwhelmingly - by a margin of more than six to one - want MPs to pass the trade deal legislation. Even remain supporters and Labour supporters are far more likely to say M MPs should vote in favour than vote against, the poll suggests.

But the poll also suggests that fewer than one in five people think it is a good deal. Even Conservative supporters and leave supporters are more inclined to see it as “neither good nor bad” than as a mainly positive achievement.


30 Dec 20 - 07:49 AM (#4085665)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Nigel Parsons

The 1975 referendum took place under a Labour government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership.
The 2016 referendum took place under a Conservative government and both major parties were in favour of continuing with our membership. It was only because of a disconnect between the government and the public that support for UKIP rose to such a level that Cameron felt threatened and offered a referendum. Both major parties were still in favour of continuing with our membership.

In more recent years it seems difficult to tell whether the party leaders (particularly May, Corbyn & Starmer) support membership of the EU or not.


30 Dec 20 - 08:08 AM (#4085666)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

That's all very well, but this deal is going through whatever Labour do. That's the position and that should inform Labour's stance. I repeat: this is a Tory deal and history must record that the Tories alone own it.


30 Dec 20 - 08:27 AM (#4085669)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: G-Force

I'm sticking with Heath. If he'd done the job properly, i.e. from a position of strength, we might still be in the EU today.


30 Dec 20 - 08:40 AM (#4085672)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

As I say, now the the ERG appears to be in favour of the deal, the arithmetic has changed. Until then, it was quite feasible the deal fell if a substantial part of the ERG group and Labour (plus SNP and others) voted against. Now the ERG appears settled in favour, the risk of no deal is a lot lower. We might get some clue in an hour or so whether it would have fallen without Labour - or we may not, I suspect it will not be that clear.


30 Dec 20 - 08:57 AM (#4085677)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Jos

I still haven't forgiven Boris for saying Jo Cox's memory should be honoured by getting Brexit done - when that was the thing she didn't want.


30 Dec 20 - 10:26 AM (#4085684)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Malcolm Storey

Well the last two were progressively worse but this latest buffoon is set to leave them standing in the stupidity stakes.


30 Dec 20 - 10:29 AM (#4085685)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

labour - or parliament - did not have to support this deal. at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis. now labour have supported us leaving the EU. leaving the EU at the worst possible time. leaving the EU without having had any say in deciding the terms of departure. supported us leaving the EU at the worst possible terms for vulnerable workers, uk migrants in europe. leaving the EU - supporting tories to do critical damage to our industries and services. and erasmus ffs!

all because they never had the bottle to stand up to the nicotine-stained man frog. and politically out-manoeuvred by boris johnson. they are trying to appeal to the mindset of voters who will never be appeased no matter how far right labour go - preferring this tactic to supporting the views of all their supporters and all of us who rely on them.

thoroughly embarrassing


30 Dec 20 - 10:45 AM (#4085688)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

at any point they could have voted for an amendment to pause legislation given the current economic crisis.

Not in practice. Only the government can introduce such a law directly, not Labour or the other parties. Labour might have been able to attach such an amendment to some other bill, but that would rely on the Speaker selecting it, which he would be unlikely to do unless it was specifically about the bill. He would probably not have allowed it, for example, as an amendment to the Internal Market bill.

Now the bill has passed (for all practical purposes) we need to build from where we are, not where we could have been in other circumstances.


30 Dec 20 - 11:03 AM (#4085693)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Just in case anyone misunderstands me when I say we have to work from where we are, I do *not* mean forget all the past. Our future options are limited by what we can do for each next step, but the past informs us not only what we have lost, but what can be achieved, so it can set a direction of travel. For example, there is no inherent reason we should permanently lose access to the security databases. There will be a price in cash and, yes, in sovereignty, but it can be done if we want.


30 Dec 20 - 11:04 AM (#4085694)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Well.. the Post office is issuing notice that sending parcels to Europe
is going to become much more difficult;

and a major European music software developer has emailed
that Brits may not be able to purchase their products
until they try to understand and sort out practicalities of any new rules...

wot a fackup...


30 Dec 20 - 11:13 AM (#4085695)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: punkfolkrocker

My age group who were students during the early 80s
are still inclined to automatically nominate thatcher...!!!

.. though boris is nudging closer to usurping her...

.. but when he is pushed out, dread to think which tory **** will replace him...


30 Dec 20 - 11:25 AM (#4085696)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Mrs Backwoodsperson is the Logistics Operations Manager of the U.K. Division of the European arm of a world-wide petro-chemical processing company. She is still waiting to hear what new regulations will prevail, and what documentation will be required, in order to import goods from, and export goods to, the EU w.e.f. Friday, 1st January, 2021.


30 Dec 20 - 11:52 AM (#4085702)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jon Freeman

I had a look at the Prusa (a respected Czech maker of 3D printers) website yesterday and saw they had a notice saying they had suspended taking orders from the UK because of the Brexit situation.


31 Dec 20 - 04:24 AM (#4085804)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

After Labour was defeated at the 1970 general election, Callaghan played a key role in the Shadow Cabinet. He became Foreign Secretary in 1974 upon Labour regaining government, taking responsibility for renegotiating the terms of the UK's membership of the European Communities, and supporting a "Yes" vote in the 1975 referendum to remain in the EC


31 Dec 20 - 04:46 AM (#4085807)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

Cameron johnson thatcher are even worse than sunny jim


31 Dec 20 - 05:00 AM (#4085810)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Acorn4

Should have thought Anthony Eden worth a shout?


31 Dec 20 - 07:32 AM (#4085824)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Nigel Parsons

"Call me Dave" made a catastrophic blunder with the referendum, as did Blair with the Iraq war, but aside from that he was pretty bland.
Extremely gentle to Blair.
He did not "make a blunder". He chose to take the UK into an illegal war. He got Parliament to assent based on his claim to have seen definite proof that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction, but not being willing to share this evidence with Parliament.


31 Dec 20 - 07:37 AM (#4085827)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: punkfolkrocker

Labour or tory, our PMs seem to end up as America's tame lap dogs...


31 Dec 20 - 07:48 AM (#4085833)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave the Gnome

Yes Nigel. They both made catastrophic decisions for the sake of their political careers. Which is pretty much what I said.


31 Dec 20 - 08:31 AM (#4085838)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

not so attlee or harold wilson were they americas tame lap dogs. now heath was very much a european was he an american tame lap dog, he may have been over enthusiastic about europe and may not have negotriated the best terms, please correct me if i am wrong, the last astaement may not be totally informed


31 Dec 20 - 08:33 AM (#4085839)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

mind you heath was a bad PM ,THE MAN THAT GAVE THE UK A 3 DAY WEEK


31 Dec 20 - 10:03 AM (#4085847)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Mr Red

'King Boris

Because his only qualification for the job was that he wanted it.

A turncoat just like Trump. And look what is happening there.

And if you thought Callaghan & Heath put the country in queer street, the next four years will be telling.

And on a lighter note, during the 3 day week, in a factory visit, there was a notice on a door saying "Please close door to conserve HEAT" to which someone had appended a "T"


31 Dec 20 - 10:10 AM (#4085848)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: The Sandman

I think callagahn enabled mrs thatcher to get in to power,
i think heath had a disastrous 3 day week , so i was talking about heaths home not foreign policy


31 Dec 20 - 10:19 AM (#4085852)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Jos

Mr Red, did you mean 'to which someone had appended an "H"'?


31 Dec 20 - 10:41 AM (#4085855)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Mr Red

Yes an H - I was distracted by Mrs T


31 Dec 20 - 10:43 AM (#4085857)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Acorn4

Also depends how far back:-

Lord Liverpool - presided over the era of Peterloo and the Corn Laws.

Lord John Russell - disastrous response to the Irish potato famine.

The Duke of Wellington's stint as Pm was also pretty disastrous though he did enable the Catholic Emancipation Act as I recall


31 Dec 20 - 02:54 PM (#4085906)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I hardly dare ask, but does Mrs Backwoodsperson know yet?


31 Dec 20 - 03:18 PM (#4085909)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Starmer is the Ramsay Macdonald of 2020


31 Dec 20 - 04:58 PM (#4085923)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mrrzy

2 more hours! Wow!

[I just remembered time zones.]


31 Dec 20 - 05:21 PM (#4085929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

39 minutes. It's now 22:21 UTC


31 Dec 20 - 05:59 PM (#4085934)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

DMcG - no further info up to yesterday. She’s on leave now until 4/1/21.


31 Dec 20 - 06:00 PM (#4085935)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

However, she has contacts, and a plan...


31 Dec 20 - 06:10 PM (#4085936)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

News.. Boris's dad applying for French citizenship...???


01 Jan 21 - 01:25 AM (#4085971)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

No surprise there then...


01 Jan 21 - 03:55 AM (#4085977)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: BobL

Lord North - lost us our colonies the other side of the Pond.


01 Jan 21 - 06:34 AM (#4086001)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Bonzo3legs

Who WOULD have been the worst prime minister if elected ??? Gold medal goes to corbyn - no contest!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


01 Jan 21 - 07:13 AM (#4086010)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

It is a disgrace that the trade agreement was only reached with a few days left.A lot of people both here and in the EU are unsure about the new procedures. The UK is adopting a hands off approach for the first 6 months with regards to imports. Exports of course are entirely another matter.

The port entrance was very quiet at 10.00 this morning, apart from the number of TV crews standing around with nothing to do.


01 Jan 21 - 07:40 AM (#4086017)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Dave Hanson

I've been a Labour voter all my life but I tend to agree with Bonzo about Mr Corbyn.

Dave H


01 Jan 21 - 08:16 AM (#4086020)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Backwoodsman

I don’t know if he would have been the ‘worst’ PM, but he certainly managed to alienate a lot of voters, and his supporters currently waging a civil war within the party are in danger of doing the same.

The usual disclaimers apply......IMHO, YMMV etc.


01 Jan 21 - 09:00 AM (#4086022)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw

Daft question in m'humble. Very strong, pig-headed leaders make for very damaging prime ministers (Thatcher, Johnson). Then there are those who can't work with advisers (May). Corbyn is not of that ilk and he would likely have worked well with advisers. Of course, that raises the question of the quality of those advisers. Let's hope that Starmer is booted out before the next election. He isn't even a leader, and he would make such a terrible prime minister that the Tories would quickly regain power and hold it for a generation. And if anyone is fomenting a civil war in Labour, it's him. He should never have whipped MPs to vote for Johnson's shoddy deal and he should not have made himself supine before the Board Of Deputies. These things will come back to bite him, and it won't necessarily be the fault of leftie Labourites either.


01 Jan 21 - 10:02 AM (#4086024)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Raggytash

Have to take issue with you there Steve, Johnson very strong? Don't think so.


01 Jan 21 - 10:35 AM (#4086026)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

I see that the new 'new variant' has been designated 'Variant of Concern'by Public Health England.


01 Jan 21 - 11:47 AM (#4086029)
Subject: RE: BS: worst british prime minster
From: Steve Shaw

I meant strong personalities, not possessing strong and visionary leadership skills. OK, read charismatic for strong.


01 Jan 21 - 01:56 PM (#4086041)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Allan Conn

Re Stanley Johnson. Not a great fan but to be fair on this issue he seemingly voted Remain so if he has a legit route to regain his European Union citizenship then why not? I'd certainly do the same.


01 Jan 21 - 02:10 PM (#4086043)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

He’s a turncoat...

Stanley Johnson - Turncoat...


02 Jan 21 - 06:59 AM (#4086129)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Acorn4

i'd like to ask Keir Starmer just one question to which the required answer would be yes or no:-

Is it correct that I am allowed to criticise the actions of the Britiah government, the US government, the Russian government or the German government but not the Israeli government?


02 Jan 21 - 07:07 AM (#4086131)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

You will never get a one-word answer from a politician. If you asked him that, I suspect that you'd get the full treatise around the IHRA false definition of antisemitism...


02 Jan 21 - 07:14 AM (#4086133)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Jos

People should be allowed to change their minds without being accused of being a "turncoat".

In the article linked to, Stanley Johnson expressed a belief about what would happen. It was NOT a life-long commitment with no option to retract if that belief turned out to be unfounded.


02 Jan 21 - 12:19 PM (#4086161)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Though how many times has old man johnson changed his mind on brexit,
to suit himself and his struggling PM son...???

At least the old fella is in a very comfy position, with more than enough options,
to weather the 'leave' storm,
his dopey boy has inflicted on the rest of us...


02 Jan 21 - 04:48 PM (#4086177)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Though how many times has old man Johnson changed his mind on brexit, to suit himself and his struggling PM son...???
Hardly at all. Right up until last month Johnson Snr. was writing articles in the Telegraph on why we should cancel Brexit.


04 Jan 21 - 06:41 AM (#4086401)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

So, yanks, you're not getting your grubby mitts on Julian Assange. Excellent!


04 Jan 21 - 10:50 AM (#4086422)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

How about a straight swap for Anne Sacoolas?


04 Jan 21 - 12:10 PM (#4086436)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Except that she should definitely be here but he should definitely not be there. In m'humble, of course.


04 Jan 21 - 12:15 PM (#4086438)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I have a very strong suspicion that, if there were to be such a swap, Mrs. Sacoolas would receive considerably better treatment by U.K. authorities than Julian Assange would receive from the authorities in the US.

A very good reason not to agree to such a swap in the unlikely event it was offered by the US.


04 Jan 21 - 02:34 PM (#4086453)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Would Biden be taking on and continuing trumpy era legal grudge cases like Assange;
or maybe quietly letting them slip off the priority 'to do' list...???


04 Jan 21 - 03:20 PM (#4086458)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

well then.. lockdown from tomorrow...

But our inept / willfully negligent / ideologically vindictive / murderous / tory Govt
could not resist just one more day of cramming infected kids and parents into primary schools...

So, how can we not suspect a deliberate attempt to kill off expensive older teachers,
falsely accused of being marxist feminist brainwashers of innocent naturally conservative children..

..when there's a massed herd of newly redundant right wing business and financial workers
who are available to be redeployed as fast tracked ideologically 'acceptable' teacher substitutes...?????

nah.. that's far too cynical an idea...??????????????????????????????


04 Jan 21 - 03:53 PM (#4086466)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Jeeze pfr, tell us what you really think.


04 Jan 21 - 05:40 PM (#4086492)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Pay people to eat out
Open universities
Threaten schools with legal action if they close

Oh look. Infection rates are up. It must be this new strain. Can't be me. I follow science.

B Johnson. January 2021


04 Jan 21 - 05:59 PM (#4086495)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Yes pfr,that is far too cynical an idea.


04 Jan 21 - 06:27 PM (#4086503)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Excellent action by the government.


05 Jan 21 - 01:52 AM (#4086545)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I agree that the lockdown is good, Bonzo. It was the actions prior to that that were idiotic.

I just remembered that one of Terry Pratchett's characters was called Bloody Stupid Johnson. Prophetic or what!


05 Jan 21 - 02:01 AM (#4086547)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Stilly River Sage

Would Biden be taking on and continuing trumpy era legal grudge cases like Assange;
or maybe quietly letting them slip off the priority 'to do' list...???


The Assange business started during the Obama administration. This will hold more context for Biden than some of the other things Trump has mangled over the last four years.

As a journalist I have mixed feelings about Assange. Publishing the Manning stuff was one thing; publishing the Clinton emails as a tool of the Russians and Trump were entirely another and put his journalistic motivation to question.


05 Jan 21 - 04:36 AM (#4086564)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I agree we needed to lockdown, and immediately. It was, and is, the only way of getting a handle on things. But it is still too vague and lax in many ways. I am a Church-goer, but think it unwise to keep places of worship open. Yes, I understand the mental health aspect, but non-church-goers also have a mental health aspect, and there is no 'special' support for them. We are told to keep things local, but that is left vague. Are we allowed to drive somewhere for exercise? If so, is the 15 miles or so to my nearest National Trust property considered 'local'?


But the action the government is taking that concerns me most is this idea of a long delay between first and second vaccinations. Because if you asked me to come up with a way to evolve vaccine-resistant forms of the virus outside a lab, that is almost exactly the way I would do it.


05 Jan 21 - 05:20 AM (#4086571)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Schools should be closed, are they still open in the uk?


05 Jan 21 - 05:51 AM (#4086574)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"Are we allowed to drive somewhere for exercise? If so, is the 15 miles or so to my nearest National Trust property considered 'local'?"

Nah. It's only OK if you drive that far in order to test your eyesight for driving...   :-)


05 Jan 21 - 06:05 AM (#4086578)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Dick - children were back 'as normal' for only one day yesterday..

Now today, teachers and other staff must attend school all day for emergency meetings and briefings..

Tomorrow, who the f@ck knows...???

It appears the academy that runs my wife's school completely excluded Union Reps
from any discussions and planning...???

At least that is how my wife understands what may have transpired behind the scenes...


Whatever happens, be assured the tories will blame Teacher's Unions
for all disruption and chaos...


05 Jan 21 - 07:02 AM (#4086582)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I thought, Steve, you might comment on the risk of evolving a vaccine-resistant variant of covid-19. Back in April 2020 at least 30 variants had been identified, so it looks like the virus is fairly adaptable.   Any thoughts? Obviously, neither of us has the detailed knowledge of viruses to answer the question rigorously, but in general terms the risks and processes seem to be similar to evolving antibiotic resistant    bacteria etc.


06 Jan 21 - 03:55 AM (#4086666)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Johnson, has proved to be inept, schools should have been closed a while ago, number one priority is stopping the spread of the virus.
Johnson has dithered and procrastinated and shown he is incompetent and yet bonzo 3legs and his like will still vote Conservative, they cannot admit that the NHS cannot cope because for years the conservatives have run it down., so that it is unable to cope with an emergency, meanwhile nurses are in short supply and are not paid enough.
how does johnsons deal compare to the one Theresa May would have got?
It appears that the most important difference is the non existence of the back stop, I think Thersa May had a higher level of competnce than Johnson and probably would have handled covid and brexit better, not difficult really, Starmer would have been better,, Corbyn would have been better,Johnson is an incompetent ditherer.There are three main differences between Theresa May's Brexit deal and Boris Johnson's one
Boris Johnson has been bullish about the UK leaving the EU on 31 October – will these changes help him?
Oct 19th 2019, 8:00 AM 40,491 Views 7 Comments
Share6 Tweet Email2
Image: PA Wire/PA Images

THE KEY DIFFERENCES between Theresa May’s Withdrawal Agreement, and Boris Johnson’s version of it are the alternative arrangement to the Irish backstop, a consent mechanism for the Northern Ireland Assembly, and the level-playing field provision.

The vast majority of the Withdrawal Agreement is untouched from its original format – with the changes focused on the two elements that pro-Brexit MPs took issue with the last three times a vote was taken on it (although the financial settlement has been reduced from £39 billion to £33 billion because of the extension).

Today’s vote in the House of Commons will clarify whether there was a legitimate concern over these elements, which Brexiteers claimed would locked the UK in a customs union that restricted the it from future trade deals, and agreeing to rules that would make the UK less competitive post-Brexit.

Despite nothing much in the 585-page Withdrawal Agreement having been changed, the things that have been changed are complicated to explain.

1. The backstop is gone

The backstop, was a plan B in the Withdrawal Agreement that would be implemented if an alternative agreement to avoid a hard border on the island of Ireland couldn’t be found.

It would keep Northern Ireland aligned to the European Union’s Custom Union and Single Market, which Brexiteers argued would mean the UK couldn’t avail of future trade deals (Theresa May rejected a Northern Ireland-only backstop in favour of a UK-wide one in order to protect ‘the integrity of the union’).

The backstop’s replacement is similar to the original Northern Ireland-only backstop, with the additional issue of consent to make the mechanism less “antidemocratic”.

In short, it means that Northern Ireland will remain aligned to the EU’s Custom Union, but will be in the United Kingdom’s custom territory, meaning that if there are future trade deals struck, Northern Ireland would avail of them.

In practice, this would mean that if goods are sent from Great Britain to Northern Ireland, no tariffs apply. If goods are sent from Great Britain through Northern Ireland to Ireland, tariffs will apply, but they will be collected at ports and airports – effectively putting a customs border along the Irish Sea.

For goods sent from Ireland to Northern Ireland, there would be no tariffs, and for goods travelling from Ireland through Northern Ireland to Great Britain, there would be tariffs collected at the Irish Sea customs border.

2. Consent

This was an important part of the discussions, as it proved difficult to capture what true “consent” from Northern Ireland would be.

If the Withdrawal Agreement is passed by the House of Commons today, this arrangement will come into effect at the end of the transition period, which will end in December 2020 (or December 2022 if it’s extended).

Related Reads
18.10.19
'Too soon to celebrate': On the border, people give Brexit deal cautious welcome
17.10.19
Explainer: Here's how the consent vote in the North will work
17.10.19
Explainer: Where has the Northern Ireland backstop gone?

Four years after that, (but two months before the deadline), the Northern Ireland Assembly will get a vote on whether to keep this customs arrangement, or default to “existing” WTO rules.

Speaking to reporters in Brussels yesterday, the Taoiseach said: “So there is of course an outside chance that at some point in the latter part of the next decade… [an] Assembly might decide to opt out of alignment, opt out of the Single Electricity Market, opt out of the new customs arrangement.

    But I’m confident that’s not going to happen, because I think that people in Northern Ireland, businesses in the Northern Ireland, farmers in Northern Ireland are going to see and experience the benefits of this arrangement.

    But if there’s a risk we’re taking, the risk we’re taking is one on democracy, and saying to people in Northern Ireland that you determine your future and this is something I can stand over.

On the vote itself, if a simple majority is achieved (so half of the total of votes cast, plus one more vote at least), it would extend the arrangements for another four years.

If they receive a cross-party consensus, meaning a majority of 60%, and at least 40% support from unionists and nationalists, then the arrangements will be extended by eight years.

If there’s no Stormont Assembly in four years’ time, those elected will be reconvened for a vote on which direction to take Northern Ireland in.

Although the DUP is opposing the deal over customs, consent and VAT reasons, and fears that it would severe the North’s link with the rest of the United Kingdom, the Taoiseach said that in his view, it did not change its “constitutional status”.

    If this agreement is ratified and it is fully implemented, the queen will still be the queen; the pound will still be the pound; people will still post letters in Royal Mail red letterboxes, Northern Ireland will still be part of the United Kingdom.

3. The Political Declaration

The “level-playing field” provision was another sticking point for UK-EU negotiators. It essentially aimed to create a base level of standards for labour rights, the environment, tax and state aid rules.



This is so as to ensure state aid rules aren’t used by either side to boost their own companies; labour rules aren’t lowered in order to increase company profits; or environmental standards aren’t renegned upon in order to become more competitive post-Brexit.

This had been a legally-binding agreement contained in the Withdrawal Agreement – it’s now stated in the Political Declaration:

“the Parties agree to develop an ambitious, wide-ranging and balanced economic partnership. This partnership will be comprehensive, encompassing a Free Trade Agreement, as well as wider sectoral cooperation where it is in the mutual interest of both Parties.

“It will be underpinned by provisions ensuring a level playing field for open and fair competition, as set out in Section XIV of this Part. It should facilitate trade and investment between the Parties to the extent possible, while respecting the integrity of the Union’s Single Market and the Customs Union as well as the United Kingdom’s internal market, and recognising the development of an independent trade policy by the United Kingdom.”

Reference to a customs union as the baseline for a future trade deal, and UK alignment with EU regulations have also been removed.


07 Jan 21 - 05:24 PM (#4086955)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Anyone fancy storming the houses of parliament? I don't think anyone has made a serious attempt since 1605 and we can learn a lot from our friends across the pond :-D


07 Jan 21 - 06:26 PM (#4086970)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well, Dave, in the US you might get shot. Storming Parliament here might get you bashed with either a truncheon or the mace...And that mace has a lot knobbly bits...

Sod it. That's the end of THAT revolution then... Bloody mace...


07 Jan 21 - 07:28 PM (#4086979)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

You really couldn't make this up.

Leave.EU the organisation founded by Aaron Banks to campaign for the UK to leave the EU now has transferred it's registered office to Ireland.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/07/leaveeu-leaves-britain-after-brexit


09 Jan 21 - 09:31 AM (#4087221)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: peteglasgow

england has been hijacked by a load of rich thieves and scroundrels. less showy than their US counterparts - but just as evil


11 Jan 21 - 02:47 AM (#4087457)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I see the government are setting up mass vaccination centres but you may have to travel up to an hour to get to one. In the middle of a lockdown where we have been told not to travel. Where the people who are getting the jabs are the over 80s and vulnerable who are most likely not to drive and going on public transport may spread the virus. While mixing with your elderly parents to drive them there could land you with a fine.

You couldn't make this stuff up.


11 Jan 21 - 03:30 AM (#4087462)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

There is an exemption for medical needs, so I guess you could get by with that.

This "don't travel" rule is self defeating. I live within 5 minutes walk of a shore. Unfortunately, because there are five multi-storey flats nearby and some multi-storey luxury flats about 5 minutes in another direction, so a few thousand other people also live within a short walk of that shore. So if I go there, it is inevitable I will be near hundreds of other people.

On the other hand, if I drive up to ten miles, there are dozens of places I could go where the chances of meeting more than two people is tiny, and the chances of meeting no-one at all quite high.

With some slight variations, I guess that is true of many of the 'built-up' areas of the country.

Now, I fully understand the rationale behind stopping transmission from one area to another, but it does not take a lot of thought to work out maybe the rules are not really achieving what we want.


11 Jan 21 - 06:53 AM (#4087468)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Maybe they are achieving what the government wants, Dave. Who knows!


11 Jan 21 - 09:37 AM (#4087489)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

This "don't travel" rule is self defeating. I live within 5 minutes walk of a shore. Unfortunately, because there are five multi-storey flats nearby and some multi-storey luxury flats about 5 minutes in another direction, so a few thousand other people also live within a short walk of that shore. So if I go there, it is inevitable I will be near hundreds of other people.
On the other hand, if I drive up to ten miles, there are dozens of places I could go where the chances of meeting more than two people is tiny, and the chances of meeting no-one at all quite high.


Unfortunately similar reasoning is being used by those who live ten miles away who want to have a walk by the shore.

Just a couple of days ago police fined two women for driving from Leicestershire to Derbyshire to meet-up for a walk. The police (apparently) said that as they'd taken coffee with them it was a 'picnic'.
Far be it from me to disagree with the police, but I think these two women were "a couple of sandwiches short of a picnic".


11 Jan 21 - 09:54 AM (#4087495)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Unfortunately similar reasoning is being used by those who live ten miles away who want to have a walk by the shore

Not really. My reasoning is that we should only go to places where there are few if any people. (And, by the way, to leave if we are mistaken.) It is not just to go wherever I happen to fancy.


11 Jan 21 - 11:55 AM (#4087512)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

driving from Leicestershire to Derbyshire

Very disingenuous Nigel. You have been to Moira and know full well the proximity of those two counties, and Staffordshire if it comes to that. The ladies in question had driven about 5 miles. Local by most people's standards. As to the flask. What drink should we take out walking in this weather? Iced water? I have noticed that Derbyshire police are now reviewing their policies and the fines issued so far. So they should.


11 Jan 21 - 12:07 PM (#4087513)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

over zealous policing undermines public respect for lock down rules,
and only strengthens the confidence of militant anti lock down fukwits...


12 Jan 21 - 12:29 PM (#4087636)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So, boris now seems to be competing to kill at least as many British civilians than even h1tler ever did...???

Well done, tories..

Persistently striving to make Britain world beaters...!!!


2020 saw most excess deaths since World War Two


12 Jan 21 - 01:21 PM (#4087641)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Some figure would show that he has already achieved that. 67,100 civilians were killed in the UK during WW2


12 Jan 21 - 06:35 PM (#4087669)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It is illegal for me to leave home without reasonable excuse (and I never do), for example, for essential food shopping and medicines.

But I can go to Morrisons supermarket and I can buy children's clothes, a duvet and covers, pots and pans, an iron, a microwave, lipstick and lots of other beauty products, perfume, chocolate and sweets, magazines, lottery tickets, birthday cards, the finest malt whiskies and a dozen types of fancy gin, children's toys, car shampoo, DVD box sets and flowers. I checked all that out this evening (I went as late as I could for my spuds, veg and milk and to shop for vulnerable friends).Then I can (but won't) nip to the garden centre and buy patio furniture, a nice shirt or two, a garden statue of a naked lady and a nice big pot plant.

Were I to buy any of those items, I wonder if that would mean that Morrisons and the garden centre could potentially be aiding and abetting my illegal behaviour...


13 Jan 21 - 02:52 AM (#4087702)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

When I go for our weekly shop I buy copious amounts of wine.

Now I am sure some people would claim that this is not an essential item, however the shop is open, they sell wine ................


I also suspect that had I burnt a saucepan or a duvet these too would be essential items to me.


13 Jan 21 - 04:20 AM (#4087704)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Subject: BS: Greatest UK PM born 95 years ago!!
From: Bonzo3legs - PM
Date: 13 Oct 20 - 06:35 PM

On this day, 95 years ago, was born one of the finest Prime Ministers ever to lead this or any country - a woman of courage, integrity and wisdom who inspired people around the world and who advanced the cause of freedom: Margaret Thatcher. God bless he
quote
is there anywhere Bonzo can buy something to stop verbal squit , essential, most definiteley


13 Jan 21 - 04:22 AM (#4087705)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I saw a youtube clip of a middle aged woman in bournemouth sitting alone on a bench with a cup of coffee being arrested and handcuffed by police,


13 Jan 21 - 05:44 AM (#4087713)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

"Margaret Thatcher. God bless he"

Heheh. In view of what a lot of us thought about her aggression and hubris, I'll take that as a Freudian slip par excellence!

Burnt duvet, Raggytash?   Now how many times have I told you not to smoke that pipe in bed!


13 Jan 21 - 05:48 AM (#4087714)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Why drag up a post from 3 months ago I wonder.


13 Jan 21 - 05:56 AM (#4087716)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

That did occur to me too...


Dick...?


13 Jan 21 - 07:11 AM (#4087723)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Correct, Steve.


13 Jan 21 - 09:59 AM (#4087751)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

Because i do not look that often below the belt and had only jusst noticed it , Raggytash , does it really matter whether it was posted yesterdayd or 3 months ago it is total squit.
Raggy whjat is your problem?


13 Jan 21 - 10:16 AM (#4087754)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

"Because i do not look that often below the belt and had only jusst noticed it"

That is absolute bollocks Dick, and you know it. A quick glance at your posting history shows you have posted over 600 times since 13th October.

That equates to 200 posts per month, or almost 7 posts a day. Most of those have been below the line.


13 Jan 21 - 10:20 AM (#4087757)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Perhaps I could mention that equates to one post every 4 hours, day and night, 7 days a week since October.


13 Jan 21 - 03:05 PM (#4087787)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: The Sandman

I had only just noticed his post.
Raggytash have you got nothing else to do but count my posts.
I answered your question, it does not follow that i because post on mucat frequently that i noticed his post. or every post
i have other things to do than count posts


14 Jan 21 - 09:51 AM (#4087898)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Brexit news – live: Boris Johnson has not read trade deal text, No 10 hints as crisis plan for ports revealed


14 Jan 21 - 10:34 AM (#4087912)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"fomenting".. ahh.. not "fermenting".. I remember now.. gottit...

I agonised over that for a few minutes earlier this week.
But the mental block wouldn't budge,
so I gave up and used a near enough alternative word...


16 Jan 21 - 03:00 AM (#4088225)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Does anyone else see the similarities between our Bozzer and the Turnip across the pond? Gained power using blatant populism. Tells lies all the time. Took over a political party for their own aggrandisement. Will do anything to stay in power. Hopefully he will go the way of the Turnip too.


16 Jan 21 - 11:03 AM (#4088300)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

yes.. they are both working for the same elite order
of hidden subterranean lizard people, who cloned them..

.. not that sensible lefties fall for conspiracy theories...


16 Jan 21 - 12:47 PM (#4088320)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

You know, I would never have thought it possible, but I am missing some of the banned right wingers. It would have been great to take the piss of them now :-)


16 Jan 21 - 01:02 PM (#4088324)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Remember.. I was always against banning the wonky headed antagonistic buggers..

They did serve a purpose, and had their entertainment value...


16 Jan 21 - 06:50 PM (#4088357)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Can't agree with that, pfr. The two or three I'm thinking of dragged the place down with their bad secret agendas, the sort of thing I've seen, when not controlled, on other websites that brought them into disrepute and nurtured a culture of trolling, flaming and sweary insults that just couldn't be recovered from. We can all agree or disagree about certain individuals (and, bejaysus, I've walked the tightrope meself on several occasions), but the bottom line is that this is someone else's site, someone who sweated his arse off to set it up with his own vision, him, not us, and we have no right to dictate terms here. We can squabble and argue and protest, and it's grand of the founder of this site to allow that. This is not a democracy. It's someone's vision, and we can sign up for free and bugger off for free, not having to make the commitment that the founder had to make. It costs us nowt. So celebrate the fact that you can freely put up your point of view and still have a bloody good grumble at Jeri, Maggie and Joe. They love us really...

...Don't you...?


Most of the time! ---mudelf


17 Jan 21 - 09:57 AM (#4088417)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Shock Brexit charges are hurting us

Just who are these charges a shock to I wonder? Just the knobs that voted for them I would have thought. Anyone with an ounce of common sense could see that anything going in and out of the EU would be adversely affected.


17 Jan 21 - 01:50 PM (#4088452)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Weren’t we assured by Brexiteers and their supporters, including on this forum, that warnings of this kind of thing by Remain campaigners were nothing more than ‘Project Fear’?


17 Jan 21 - 02:06 PM (#4088457)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Was that a corporate mudelf or just one of you? :-) :-) :-)


20 Jan 21 - 09:30 AM (#4088926)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:53 AM

”It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."

That’s an interpretation you have chosen to put on it Steve. You’re the one who brings up ‘lefties’, etc., not me. Own your prejudice.

When I talk about ‘unity in the LP’, I’m asking for both sides to bury the hatchet and work together for the good, not only of the Party, but also of the vast majority of the people of this country.

And yes, DMcG, I agree that this discussion would be better placed in the UK Politics thread, but others raised it here.

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:25 AM

It's also very noticeable that "appealing for unity in the Labour Party" means precisely the same thing as "piss off you lefties..."

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:22 AM

You're assuming that you've been right all along about Jeremy Corbyn. The splits in the party were caused not by him but by his opponents (constantly briefing against him, using the bogus antisemitism nonsense as a stick to beat him with, refusing to be in his shadow cabinet, etc. A death wish by the party right...). There's a very interesting new book that's been given excellent reviews, even by the right-wing press (before you say anything) that gives what's been described as a very honest account of Corbyn's leadership and what went wrong for him, This Land by Owen Jones. I'll be buying it. Corbyn stunned the pundits by robbing May of her majority in 2017. The Tories didn't like it, the media didn't like it and the right wing in the Labour Party didn't like it. So, next time round, out came the big guns...

From: Backwoodsman - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 07:03 AM

Funny though, isn’t it Steve, that when I appeal for unity in the Labour Party and support for the democratically-elected leader in order to concentrate on fighting the worst Tory government we’ve had for a great many years, I’m jumped on and lambasted by our resident Corbynistas?

From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:36 AM

It's a bit like when there's plenty of money in the bank, Dave (not that I'd know). Little crises that might cause splits can be overridden. Money-in-the-bank for the Tories is their big majority. If they were to lose most or all of that majority next time round, there would be splits, but whether that would be enough to wreck 'em kind of hinges on Labour not having even bigger splits...

From: Dave the Gnome - PM
Date: 20 Jan 21 - 06:22 AM

Is the Republican party torn by internal division? We can only hope our Tories will go the same way but, for now, that seems to be the prerogative of the Labour party!


20 Jan 21 - 09:31 AM (#4088927)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

There. That was the exchanges that started up in the wrong thread. Carry on...


20 Jan 21 - 09:33 AM (#4088929)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Depending on which way you read threads, that might have gone in a funny way up,....


20 Jan 21 - 09:58 AM (#4088931)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

Well, John, your interpretation of burying the hatchet, etc., for about four years seemed to involve disaffected right-wingers (always a relative term, of course) in the party cold-shouldering the properly-elected party leader, publicly dissing him, concertedly using vile antisemitism slurs against him and refusing to serve in his shadow cabinet. Then, when you finally get rid of him (by doing everything necessary to make sure we lose an election, in concert with the Tories and the media) and get your own man in, appeal for unity and the burying of the hatchet. I ask you, which of those two sides demonstrates lack of principle? Fine to bury the hatchet as long as you've got your man in there first, eh?

And chickens always come home to roost. Now that we've got our safe pair of hands installed, just look at how bloody useless he is. So much for let's ditch principle and get Boris out at any cost.


20 Jan 21 - 10:28 AM (#4088937)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Oh.. The Labour Party.. I remember them...

Don't hear much about 'em anymore.. since boris became his own most effective opposition...


20 Jan 21 - 11:34 AM (#4088946)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

He'll get away with it. Without a strong opposition leader (wot we have assuredly not got) he'll get in again.


20 Jan 21 - 11:48 AM (#4088948)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I got behind Corbyn. I voted for Becky but supported Keir for a while. I have since left the Labour party but that was to do with the pandering to the right wing Israeli lobby rather than the leadership. Maybe the two are tied though? Is Starmer a right wing plant? I doubt it but his actions so far do not bode well.


20 Jan 21 - 11:58 AM (#4088950)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Well there you go, Steve, twisting words again. The old Jim Carroll tactic - when you have no answer, twist and re-interpret the words of your opponent to make them mean what you want them to mean, and then argue against your own interpretation. I really thought you were a better man than that. Shameful.

So, to respond to your interpretation of what I’ve actually been advocating...

1. Most importantly - I’m not a Member of the Labour Party, nor am I a ‘disaffected right-winger’. I would describe myself as being of the centre-left.

2. I didn’t do anything to ‘finally get rid of him’, nor to ‘get my own man in. In view of (1), how could I?

3) Despite my own feelings that he was not a good Leader, but because he was the democratically-elected Leader, I supported Corbyn throughout his Leadership, spoke up for him and defended him against those who did ‘everything necessary to make sure we lose an election, in concert with the Tories and their media’. It was my stated belief during that time too that there should be an end to division and a move to unity in the party in order to return a desperately-needed Labour government. I voted Labour in each GE during Corbyn’s reign. A check of my posts on this forum during the time of the election will confirm.

4) I don’t believe that the current incumbent is a great leader, but he is the democratically-elected Leader and, exactly as I did during Corbyn’s time as Leader, I will support The Labour Party on the basis that the Party is bigger than any individual or group of individuals, and that removing the worst Tory government in my lifetime is far more important than fighting internal wars. And no matter who the next Leader might be, I will continue with that principle. Party First and Foremost.

5. I really couldn’t care less about your internal, eternal, puerile battles of ideology - fighting your own party won’t get rid of the ideology of Conservatism, only a united Labour Party, working for the good of those who need it the most, will do that.

Now have fun twisting that lot.


20 Jan 21 - 01:13 PM (#4088958)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

It's you twisting, or not reading properly, John. The whole of the main paragraph in the post that's got your gander up is directed at members of the Labour Party (do check that out - it's pretty explicit in the post). As you are not one, I fail to see why you appear to take what I said personally. It doesn't apply to you. But you have expressed anti-Corbyn sentiments on a number of occasions. I don't agree with that, I gave my reasons and I told you about what I think could be a good read. By the way, my use of the term "right-wingers" with reference to people in the Labour Party who jumped on the anti-Corbyn bandwagon is relative, something else I made clear in the post.

Dave, I decided not to leave the party, though many of us lefties have done so. It was a close call. I find it pretty distressing to see how things are currently going. Keir Starmer is going to be easy meat for the Tories when the chips are down at the next election, and the sheer absolute blunder of his trying to sideline Corbyn over that cobbled-together antisemitism report will come back to bite him on the arse. My God, does he know how to do the splits.


21 Jan 21 - 09:41 AM (#4089083)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Another Brexit benefit!

Britons buying from EU site face import duties


21 Jan 21 - 10:26 AM (#4089099)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

I'm Backing Britain.. [1968]

Britain ain't Backing Me.. [2021]


21 Jan 21 - 11:26 AM (#4089110)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Another Brexit benefit!
Britons buying from EU site face import duties


The two examples given both say they were unaware that they weren't buying from a UK firm. So they could just as easily be buying from USA or China, where import duties and VAT could also be charged. Peoples buying choices are hardly the fault of Brexit, or of the UK government.


21 Jan 21 - 11:41 AM (#4089113)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Earlier this month I placed an order with a company in Northern Ireland.

15 days ago I received a message to say the goods had been sent to the distribution company, a large household name.

For the past 3 days I have been chasing the goods. I am informed today that no goods whatsoever are being forwarded to the UK because of "Brexit"

I pity the poor sod in the distribution centre having to field call like mine asking where our goods are and when we can expect delivery.

He had absolutely no idea of what was happening and muttered vague dates like middle of February, middle of March as prospective dates.


21 Jan 21 - 11:56 AM (#4089116)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - I take it from your smug off-handed dismissal of the problems now faced by Brits buying from EU;
that you either rarely, or never, buy goods direct from Europe,
or are so well off you don't care about drastically increased import charges...???

Souds about right for ardent tory brexiteers...


21 Jan 21 - 12:02 PM (#4089117)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"souds"..

the "n" has been held up in transit by post brexit red tape..
I could have sworn I was getting it from a UK spellchecker...


21 Jan 21 - 12:26 PM (#4089119)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Nigel, that is a bit of an odd argument. Do you deny we are now charged customs for goods from more places than we were before? That is the "Brexit benefit" I referred to.


21 Jan 21 - 12:41 PM (#4089121)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

I mentioned this to my sister, pointing out that a lot of Amazon goods come via their warehouses on 5he Republic or Germany. She send this note in replay:

Amazon FBA Brexit Bombshell 1 – EFN

EFN allows you to fulfil orders from any Amazon European marketplace, while you ship your goods to Amazon’s fulfilment centres in just one country such as the UK.

From the 1st of January 2020 goods in Amazon’s UK fulfilment centres will no longer be used to fulfil orders in Europe. Effectively your sales opportunity from selling on Amazon UK dropped from 446 million EU consumers to 66 million brits.

Amazon FBA Brexit Bombshell 2 – Pan-European FBA

Currently, with Pan-European FBA, when you send your products to fulfilment centres in the UK, Amazon distribute them for storage across Europe. Your products become Prime eligible and visible to millions of customers, with faster delivery while you pay only UK local fulfilment fees.

This will end for stock in Amazon UK warehouses on the 1st of January 2021. However if you send stock to an Amazon warehouse in Europe then it will still be distributed to other European warehouse, with the exception that it won’t be sent back to the UK.


21 Jan 21 - 12:56 PM (#4089122)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

So what's the future prospects now for all the affordable CDs, music equipment, & misc. products
I depend on buying frequently, shipped free from Amazon EU S.a.r.L....???????


22 Jan 21 - 04:29 AM (#4089173)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel, that is a bit of an odd argument. Do you deny we are now charged customs for goods from more places than we were before? That is the "Brexit benefit" I referred to.
I don't deny that. And that it also applies to residents of the EU buying from UK.
But your link, which was based on two people who didn't even know where they were buying from hardly helps in putting forward a valid point.

As for pfr's comment:
Nigel - I take it from your smug off-handed dismissal of the problems now faced by Brits buying from EU; that you either rarely, or never, buy goods direct from Europe, or are so well off you don't care about drastically increased import charges...???
Souds about right for ardent tory brexiteers...


It doesn't even merit a considered reply.


22 Jan 21 - 05:19 AM (#4089179)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

But your link, which was based on two people who didn't even know where they were buying from hardly helps in putting forward a valid point.

Well, we will leave it at this, but the point is the link talked about the fact the charges exist. The extent to which these people understood it was not, for me, the salient point. That the charges are now incurred is.


22 Jan 21 - 05:32 AM (#4089181)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Really, I should never say I will 'leave it at that' until I am sure I have thought for at least five more minutes. After this, I really will leave it.

Firstly, I am pleased, Nigel, that you acknowledge every citizen in the UK may now be liable for customs charges for goods from the EU, when they were not before, and that this is an additional cost to them entirely due to Brexit.

Secondly, I take no pleasure that citizens of the EU also face customs duties. In fact, it is worse than that, because it means that given a choice between equivalent products from the UK and the EU the UK version will be more expensive due to the customs charges. Consequently, it is likely to reduce UK sales. That is not something to be pleased about.

Now I really will leave it!


22 Jan 21 - 07:50 AM (#4089208)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Yebbut we got are cuntry back...


22 Jan 21 - 08:02 AM (#4089210)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Donuel

Frum th right POV you hafta TAKE yur cuntree back , as in steal.


22 Jan 21 - 10:36 AM (#4089244)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

"It doesn't even merit a considered reply."

Nigel yesterday you were just being smugly off-handed.

Today you have raised your disregard for the financial plight of other UK citizens
to rees-mogg levels of imperious contemptemtuous denial of reality...

The facts are you write here as though you do not care about new increased import charges from the EU.
You refuse to deny that it is because this does not effect you personally..

Is it not fair to suggest you never buy direct from Europe,
or you are so well off you can easily absorb these new extra costs...???

Whatever, your typical tory brexiteer supercilious attitude
and refusal to reply in reasonable forum debate speaks for itself...


22 Jan 21 - 10:50 AM (#4089250)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Nigel Parsons

Nigel yesterday you were just being smugly off-handed.
Today you have raised your disregard for the financial plight of other UK citizens to rees-mogg levels of imperious contemptemtuous denial of reality...

I don't know how you reach that conclusion. I have always accepted that there will be costs involved in Brexit. The fact that, for the two persons discussed in The Guardian I take the view caveat emptor in no way means that I am being contemptuous. Nor am I denying reality.

The facts are you write here as though you do not care about new increased import charges from the EU.

"Increased import charges"? were there import charges for purchases from EU before? (apart from dutiable goods such as alcohol & tobacco)
You refuse to deny that it is because this does not effect you personally..
Typical failure to understand. Not denying something is not the same as accepting it as true.

Is it not fair to suggest you never buy direct from Europe,
or you are so well off you can easily absorb these new extra costs...???

No, it is not. I buy from EU and from worldwide, and pay any necessary customs/VAT as required. Before buying I check what the total cost is likely to be. If I can't afford it, I don't buy it!

Whatever, your typical tory brexiteer supercilious attitude
and refusal to reply in reasonable forum debate speaks for itself...


I only declined to respond because your post (as this time) was full of unwarranted assumptions.


22 Jan 21 - 11:04 AM (#4089261)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

"Increased import charges"? were there import charges for purchases from EU before?

There were no customs charges from the EU, Nigel, as you well know. The customs charges now being applied are therefore an increase.


22 Jan 21 - 11:05 AM (#4089263)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Nigel - thanks for the reply.
Even if it is mostly pedantic waffly deflection..

I thought of suggesting ardent brexiteers are happy to accept a high increase from zero import charges from the EU,
on regaining sovereignty,
because it is their patriotic duty..

Well I thought nah.. surely our Nige can't be that bonkers blinded by brexit ideology...???


22 Jan 21 - 12:05 PM (#4089280)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

No point, PFR. Many people know that their vote for brexit was a mistake but it is human nature not to admit errors. Even if Nigel ever thought he was wrong he would never admit it on here. Far better just to take the piss :-)


22 Jan 21 - 12:19 PM (#4089287)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

DtG - what I enjoy about smug condescending folk,
is that while in their own heads they are convinced they are being so clever and superior;
here in the outside world of reality,
we just see them as smarmy out of touch arses...

But nonetheless, mudcatters are mainly good tolerant folks who welcome and celebrate diversity of personalities...

I can be friendly with just about most people..

You could say I'm an equal opportunities piss taker...


23 Jan 21 - 02:57 AM (#4089407)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

PFR - :-D


23 Jan 21 - 02:57 AM (#4089408)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

Oh, and 800!


23 Jan 21 - 03:13 AM (#4089413)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

The VAT implications of an EU based business selling to the UK now are VAT consultant territory, unbelievably complicated.


23 Jan 21 - 03:43 AM (#4089414)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And the VAT Consultants and Shipping-Brokers are clueless too. Mrs Backwoodsperson is the Logistics/Operations Manager for one of the UK production sites of a US-owned business with multiple locations in the EU and the UK. She currently has thirty-plus shipments to the EU held up at UK ports, Groupage warehouses, and her own warehouses, because no-one is able to determine what documentation is needed, or they are unable to obtain it. Add to that the fact that hauliers are refusing to collect loads because they don’t want their trucks to get ‘stuck’, and you have an almighty - and very expensive - fuck up. Many thousands of pounds of demurrage charges already, and we’re only three weeks in.

No wonder her employers are now considering whether to pull out of the UK altogether, and concentrate their production in the EU.


23 Jan 21 - 04:41 AM (#4089418)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

I imagine that most of the confusion is down to the fact that terms were only agreed days before we left. As I have said before, both sides are to blame for that.

Hopefully things will settle down soon.


23 Jan 21 - 04:43 AM (#4089421)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

But hey, we ‘Took are cuntry back’ and Nigs got his blue passport, so all’s well with the world, innit? Can't wait for those ‘sunlit uplands’ the Wide-Mouthed Frog and his nitwit followers promised us.


23 Jan 21 - 04:52 AM (#4089423)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Bonzo3legs

Our VAT consultant is not clueless at all, how can you generalise?


23 Jan 21 - 07:09 AM (#4089447)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

I’ll take your word on that, Bonz - I’ve been retired from the Accounting world for nine years, so I’m out of touch and only have hearsay from my former international colleagues to go by.

But, of course, I was talking more specifically about the problems of logistics, movement of goods, etc. There’s no doubt that, prior to the end of December, and despite that fat buffoon with no dress-sense and the world’s worst haircut telling businesses to ‘prepare for Brexit’, there was little or no information available for businesses to study in order to ‘prepare’ themselves.

In the same way that businesses are struggling to export goods to EU countries, they are also suffering from the same kind of difficulties importing. My wife’s company brings a great deal of raw material in from the EU - a straightforward matter pre-31/12/21 - but, since then her suppliers have managed to get just one shipment across. Like U.K. hauliers, their EU counterparts are having the same problems with documentation and hauliers being reluctant to take the work on for fear of their trucks getting ‘stuck’ here and unable to get back. Fortunately, she foresaw the coming fuck-up, and stockpiled material in the last quarter of 2020, but that’s being used and needs to be replenished - no sign of that happening short-term.

But never mind, the cabal of immensely wealthy individuals who pull the Tory strings and drove the BrexShit campaign can rest easy, knowing their tax-dodging can continue unhindered....


23 Jan 21 - 07:15 AM (#4089449)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And that should have been 31/12/20 of course!


23 Jan 21 - 07:17 AM (#4089450)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

stockpiled material in the last quarter of 2020

As did many others. Stockpiling is a great way of buying time while the problems are sorted, and with luck they get sorted out in time to restore a normal flow before the stockpile runs out. But is it far from certain.

That may be why haven't had too many supply problems yet. If the problems are sorted, we won't either. But if they are not, the issues will really start to bite once the stockpiles are used up.


23 Jan 21 - 07:46 AM (#4089459)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

And of course, stockpiling comes at a cost, DMcG - not least storage costs. My wife is having to store materials in hired warehousing because her own warehouses can’t cope with it, and of course moving materials between hired warehousing and the production facility has to be paid for too.


23 Jan 21 - 07:59 AM (#4089462)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Of course, stockpiling of RM runs directly contrary to her company’s ‘Just In Time’ operating culture, and it has to be paid for - tying up large amounts of cash in inventory. So it’s a multiple-whammy. Not good for business at all.


23 Jan 21 - 09:27 AM (#4089475)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

The distribution company who have my goods at the moment have had those goods since the 6th January.

From my conversation with a chap there this week nothing has left their facilities bound for the UK and you may remember I placed my order with a company in Northern Ireland.

Utterly shambolic, and I have to say, typical of this governments handling of matters.


23 Jan 21 - 09:32 AM (#4089476)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Just as an aside has anyone else noticed that although we Brits are limited to one thread the Americans at the moment have at least four.

Just saying like ............ :-0


23 Jan 21 - 09:49 AM (#4089478)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Yes, there are many costs connected with stockpiling that I didn't go into: my comments was all about supplying the market. As you say, it ties up company money and, if they have to hire additional warehouses, has direct costs as well.

My best guess is that Just-in-Time systems will have to change to 'small stockpile' systems. Whatever system you use, you need the 'demand' to equal the 'supply'.   So conceptually you always have a supply, a buffer area to smooth out variation and a demand that takes things out of the buffer. Just-in-Time is about making the buffer as close to zero as possible. I suspect that for the foreseeable future we will have to have lots of 'non-empty' buffers to smooth out delivery issues. Which, as you say ties up company money and may incur additional warehousing costs.


23 Jan 21 - 10:26 AM (#4089484)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Just a quick one with no links - wife is insisting I get on with something..

BBC news items over last couple of days about container hire costs
rocket inflating by thousands of £££;
and UK businesses contemplating burning goods held up in Europe,
as less financial loss than continued increasing storage expenses...


23 Jan 21 - 01:11 PM (#4089528)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

There is an article in the press today were a cheese supplier in Cheshire states he has to provide a health certificate costing £180 on all his exports to the EU.

Those include his personal packs of cheese which would normally retail about £25- 30.

Guess what happens next!

Cheese

I doubt if anyone who actually voted for Brexit conceived this would happen but some of us who voted remain suggested it may well do so.


23 Jan 21 - 02:17 PM (#4089545)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

This is a good one!

Set up shop in EU


23 Jan 21 - 03:04 PM (#4089556)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

Pfr.The problem with container prices mainly relates to non EU imports and is mostly due to covid related problems. Too many empty containers here resulting in a shortage of containers available to load abroad.


23 Jan 21 - 04:43 PM (#4089577)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: punkfolkrocker

Rain Dog - fair enough..

I mentioned I was posting in a hurry, so couldn't verify by googling for links,
on what I thought I remembered from the news..

.. consider my botty spanked for spreading inaccuracies...


23 Jan 21 - 06:02 PM (#4089597)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Rain Dog

'I doubt if anyone who actually voted for Brexit conceived this would happen but some of us who voted remain suggested it may well do so.'

Seriously Raggytash?


24 Jan 21 - 03:22 AM (#4089647)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Dave the Gnome

I'm sure Raggytash will answer for himself, Rain Dog, but it you follow the arguments about Brexit then yes, seriously. Any mention of the adverse effects of Brexit have been jumped on by Brexiteers in politics, the press and even here on Mudcat as "project fear". Of course now they are saying they always expected some disruption. But that is not how it was sold or told. Nor has that disruption or the cost ever been quantified. I may have said "I doubt that anyone who voted for Brexit was informed that this may happen by the powers that be" but the spirit of Raggytash's comment is both serious and accurate.


24 Jan 21 - 04:13 AM (#4089653)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

But that is not how it was sold or told.

Quite. I did spend around five minutes looking for any occasion when any of the Brexit supporters who are here or are no longer with us said there would be such disruption, but really it is not worth the effort; far too many posts to plough through.

From memory, all I can recall from before, say, the Dec 2019 election is an agreement there may be some short term disruption. Not 'will be', mind, but 'may be'. Also that this would last for an unspecified 'short term'. I mention that because charges due to customs fees are not short term under any sensible definition: they will be retained unless there are specific negotiations to eliminate that: setting up something like a single market, for instance.


24 Jan 21 - 04:32 AM (#4089657)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

Also that this would last for an unspecified 'short term'.

I should have given an honourable mention to Keith there, who was prepared to say when he said "short term", he meant "up to six months."


24 Jan 21 - 04:41 AM (#4089658)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Mr Red

As predicted, food prices moving.
In my local supermarket bread & yoghurt up. Short shelf life.
Brie, all the way from la Belle France not gone up yet. But it has a long shelf life & there are warehouses in the UK. Watch this space.

Yea, Yea. Natural inflation and COVID can be blamed. They will be, it hides the Brexshit contribution.


24 Jan 21 - 08:07 AM (#4089681)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Here ya go - the chickens are coming home to roost.


24 Jan 21 - 09:29 AM (#4089696)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Raggytash

Yes seriously Rain Dog.

Many of us remainers were suggesting that post brexit costs and administration would escalate to a point were some firms would no longer be viable.

We suggested that jobs would be exported and that unemployment in the UK would rocket.

I think that what we are seeing at the moment is merely the tip of the iceberg.

I recall posting on one occasion that one of my insurance underwriters had already transferred some of their operation to the EU in anticipation of excessive red tape here. I was told at the time I was talking nonsense, despite having quoted from a letter of explanation from the company detailing why they had moved.

So yes seriously.


24 Jan 21 - 01:06 PM (#4089726)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Backwoodsman

Great to see we ‘Took are cuntry back’, and we’re benefitting from the ‘sunlit uplands’ the Brexiteers promised us...the government are now recommending U.K. businesses to set up in the EU.

You really couldn’t make this lunacy up, could you?


24 Jan 21 - 01:44 PM (#4089731)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: DMcG

And, Backwoodsman, they are in effect saying drop any other investment plans you have and spend you own money to overcome the limitations of this deal we have agreed. If you don't have the resources, or it doesn't work out, we guess you just aren't working hard enough to resolve the issues.


25 Jan 21 - 09:14 AM (#4089817)
Subject: RE: BS: Brexit & other UK political topics
From: Steve Shaw

One of the undeniable benefits of brexit, courtesy of the Daily Mash. I'm sure that Nigel will be enthusiastically applauding in agreement when he reads it:

SUPERMARKETS are suffering fresh food shortages. So that’s another benefit of Brexit. Leave voter Steve Malley explains the dangers of fresh fruit and veg.

You could stab yourself

Opening a tin? Safe. But unlike baked beans or Big Soup, fresh vegetables frequently need to be cut up. One slip slicing a carrot and you’ve put a knife through a major artery. In your panic you might then trip and stab yourself in the brain. Is it worth it just to eat a la-di-da courgette?

You’re exposing yourself to deadly acid

Fruit is rammed with dangerous citric acid. That can’t be safe. Remainers might complain about not being able to get fresh grapefruit, but should you listen to these idiots when they’re pretty much taking a swig from a car battery?

We didn’t evolve to eat salad

Humans only evolved hands to carry spears. That’s science. If we’d been intended to eat plants and grass we’d have hooves and be covered in wool like sheep. That’s not just my opinion, it’s the view of a great British hero you might have heard of – Charles Darwin.

Weakness, fainting and coma

Fruit and vegetables contain almost no nutrients compared to superfoods like sausages. If there’s more than a couple a week in your diet, you’ll gradually grow weaker and your teeth will fall out before you faint and slip into a coma. That’s your choice, but I have to be more responsible because I’m an HGV driver.

They’re a choking hazard

There’s no danger of choking on traditional British foods like beef broth and Angel Delight. By contrast, look at the tough, leathery skin of a pear or grape. You may as well be eating a bag of washers.

Food hygiene

You don’t get more hygienic than fresh out of the tin. However, fresh fruit and veg is grown in fields where mice and birds can shit on them. You wouldn’t get a seagull to crap on your bacon sandwich, so why take the risk with fruit and veg? We’re better off without.