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Review: Lost threads

13 Jan 20 - 04:46 AM (#4027931)
Subject: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll

People may notice that the Walter Pardon thread has now been taken off line by a moderator and will not be reopened - we will have to restart another one in a month's time, largely due to the behaviour of a troll and the refusal of a moderator to deal with her behaviour
I have been forced to the conclusion that I cannot lend my name to a forum which allows such disgraceful behaviour towards one of the mose loved and respected figures of British folksong, someone I am proud to describe as a friend and source of invaluable songs and information for over twenty years
As much as I have tried, the moderator refuses to re-open the thread - he offers only personal abuse - including the suggestion that I am suffering from dementia (Imust warn the next people I give a public talk to of that fact)
The mod has made it wquite clear he despises thi=ose he moderates on behalf of - he describes us as "old men who he regrets having to talk to as children" (quote from a PM)

I have decided to make what is happening here public via any source I can find - it has already driven several people away and, is damaging both the reputation of folk song and that of this once extremely valuable forum
I don't expect this thread to survive very long and it will probably lead to my expulsion, but I will ascertain that this message will reach as many of those who I believe to be as concerned as I am via friends I have made during my thirteen years stay as a member of Mudcat
Regretfully
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 20 - 05:12 AM (#4027932)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Nigel Parsons

I would suggest that this thread belongs in BS. Except that a thread opened to discuss moderation of the Mudcat doesn't belong anywhere.
It does not discuss a 'lost thread', merely a closed one: Still available here


13 Jan 20 - 05:33 AM (#4027935)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge

Jim C, I think the vast majority of people with any knowledge of the peoples' music have nothing but respect for your knowledge and your contribution to the tradition over many years.
You have a valid view of what the music is about and your memories of some of the stalwarts are often very informative.

However we all have faults, even your heroes, but as an irregular contributor to Mudcat, I've noticed that you have repeatedly responded to any criticism or disagreement with your often trenchant views in a very abrasive and provocative manner.

   In the past I have occasionally responded in a similar manner, but exchanging insults & name calling goes nowhere! I have no particular views about Walter Pardon, and didn't follow the closed thread, but I have developed an approach to the music over 56 years which you don't much like, and surely am entitled to that?

   I've been disinclined to respond to some of your posts recently because I know it'll be counterproductive-others may have similar reservations, and I'd hope that your anatagonists would then respond positively to a more tolerant approach.

I think it would be good if you could just accept that other people are entitled to their own views and maybe THIS thread will not be closed down?


13 Jan 20 - 05:38 AM (#4027936)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

I've frequently discussed trolling behaviour with this moderator, and though he generally agrees about the trolling we rarely see eye-to-eye on what to do about it. The present situation with regard to the refusal to allow discussion of one of the mighty figures in folk song is highly regrettable, arbitrary and, in my opinion, outrageous. The trolling, which Joe agrees was trolling, by a contributor with verbal diarrhoea could have be nipped in the bud by simply deleting promptly the long-winded diatribes (there's nothing more annoying than losing a message you've spent ages composing...). As I've always said, it's my prerogative to express an opinion but not to demand stuff. My quick way of saying it is that it's not my gig. And, equally regrettably, I've also heard the dementia "diagnosis" in a PM from said moderator. PMs are a great way of relieving frustrations via being able to safely bad-mouth people. It's surely not the role of a moderator, though, to comment privately on what he perceives, in his unqualified opinion, to be an adverse mental condition of someone he doesn't like.

Just my opinion.


13 Jan 20 - 05:40 AM (#4027937)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll

I have no intention of discussing my reputation - I'm far nore covcerned with how Walter Pardon has been treated
I'm sorry you didn't feel it worthy of comment
Jim


13 Jan 20 - 05:57 AM (#4027940)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: The Sandman

i whole heartedl;y support Jim Carroll , for a troll to be allowed to describe Walter Pardon as an industry is a disgrace and a provocation, joe offer a so called mod, sent me a private message calling me an arsehole, this forum is run in an amateurish fashion, by somebody who allows provoocative trolling.
Jim Bainbridge, i suggest you read the thread before you comment on it provocation such as describing walter pardon as an industry, is beyond the pale


13 Jan 20 - 06:02 AM (#4027941)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

Jim B, I respect your point of view, but let me just say as a similarly combative (at times) contributor here that Jim and I have often disagreed with each other over both substance and perspective, and express those differences openly and publicly, but you will not find a single instance down the years of he and I being less than civil to each other. I highly respect his knowledge and contributions and perhaps that's why I don't wish to destroy the mutual trust by indulging in attack-dog behaviour of the kind we currently see from Iains and one or two other lesser lights. Like Joe Offer, I've wished on occasion that Jim would step back from responding to the jealous idiots who provoke us. But I'm not going along with the victim-blaming I'm afraid. On every other forum I've contributed to, trolls are dealt with in a very straightforward way, via warnings and deletions then via expulsion. None of your protracted nonsense. It works. Ask Jeremy, Molly and Dale Wisely (with all of whom I've had many a spat). I don't want or expect democracy but equally I don't want trolls with free rein to be able to make their targets into culprits. That's very debilitating and it gives the mods ten times as much work to do.


13 Jan 20 - 06:07 AM (#4027943)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: The Sandman

The same moderator said that nic jones had nicked stolen the guitar arrngement of canadeio, another example of ignorance and slipshod research.Nic had a very bad car accident and was a loss to the uk folk revival to claim he stole the guitar arrngement is legally libellous.


13 Jan 20 - 06:15 AM (#4027944)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Rain Dog

"provocation such as describing walter pardon as an industry, is beyond the pale"

Really? Beyond the pale?

Some of you are just so keen to be provoked. Some of you who are provoked do drive others away because of your behaviour. So many threads tend to have an 'unpleasant' feel to them. It does appear at times that a small number of you just enjoy arguing the toss and trying to drive out those people you do not agree with.


13 Jan 20 - 06:23 AM (#4027946)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

All too often the disagreement is spiced with attack. He who strikes the first blow is squarely the one to blame for setting the wrong vibe, Rain Dog. That's who you should be castigating, not their targets. And yes, they're good at spotting the targets. If they're not dealt with in summary fashion the rot sets in.


13 Jan 20 - 06:25 AM (#4027947)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: GUEST,HiLo

The problem is not trolls, it is bullies, those who cannot tolerate people who disagree with them. These bullies cannot deal with people who clearly know more than some of them do, so they name call, they run to the mods, and they bully. Then when threads are closed, guess what, they blame “trolls”.    The fact that this thread even exists is proof of that.....and look who is here.

,


13 Jan 20 - 06:33 AM (#4027951)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

"Look who's here" - that remark on its own makes you part of the problem. Also, I'm not sure how you know who "runs to the mods," how often, and who doesn't...


13 Jan 20 - 07:00 AM (#4027958)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Vic Smith

Mudcat is the leading board for folk music discussion on the internet and the contributors represent a wide range of interests and backgrounds of those interest in 'folk song' (whatever that is for there seems to be about many different opinions on what this is as there are contributors; certainly the Brits and the Americans view it differently).
It is far from perfect. To my mind it is too tolerant of a variety of political extremists as I found to my cost when the 'attack dogs' of the BNP were infiltrating the board with character asassination and identity theft. However, I had the choice of leaving or continuing in the hope that things would improve. Well they have, but I was never under any illusion that Mudcat was a democracy and that I could change the basic policy. Max and Joe and their other helpers have devised a consistant way of running Mudcat which is quite discernable after a few visits reading a variety of posts. Clearly, they work hard for what appears to be very little reward. Personally, I am very thankful for the work they do in spite of the apparent hard time that some members give them.
The alternative would be for the strong dissenters to leave, perhaps combine their talents and set up a rival board that ran in the way that they saw fit - but I know from being a webmaster of various smaller folk music sites that this is both expensive and time consuming.


13 Jan 20 - 07:06 AM (#4027959)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: GUEST,Grishka

If the vibes are wrong, that's no excuse for the rest of the rhythm group to goof.


13 Jan 20 - 07:24 AM (#4027964)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: John MacKenzie

More deletions would be good. By that I mean deletion of posts which upset the majority, and not just the minority, or just the head mod.


13 Jan 20 - 07:36 AM (#4027967)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll

"Mudcat is the leading board for folk music discussion on the internet "
The dispicable way that Walter has been treated here has put that at risk - the cracks are already beginning to appear with a leading researcher walking away in disgust and stating he will never open this forum again because of how Walter was allowed to be treated
We always had a convention that no mater squabbled among ourselves, we treated the older source singers with respect and sensitivity because they were not part of what we made
That's been kicked into touch by a troll, this forum with the help of a moderator who refuses to intervene to stop her
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 20 - 07:47 AM (#4027968)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge

No plans to read the WP thread, Dick, sounds like pretty vile comments involved... I was simply trying to help reduce provocation & abuse on the site.
Mudcat is unusual in that it does not require membership & logins etc and it would be sad if that changed just to deter 'trolls'.

JC isn't the only one guilty of this, of course and it seems he was the victim of it this time?
You personally, Steve Shaw may have managed a civil exchange with JC but others (like me) are less able, or willing to try & counter his intolerance- I respect JC's long history in the music, but I totally disagree with his views on the 'tradition'.
He has never given any indication of seeing any merit in my opinion- in fact the reverse, hence my absence from recent threads in which he posts. Please regard that as a deliberate attempt to reduce friction, but it's sad, don't you think?


13 Jan 20 - 08:19 AM (#4027972)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll

Can I just sort things ourt as far as my behaviour
I never personally insult people but I quite often respond badly when people insult me - which has become commonplace, from comments about my age to racist remarks because of where I live (I'm a Brit living in Ireland)
Jim B's behaviour when I criticised his own personal superstat were as insulting as they come so if I insulted him, I gave as good as a got from him
Enough

The problem really arises when mods look down on people they work for - us
Complaints on trolls have met eith personal abiuse ranging from "you lot are worse than they are" to one claiming I am suffering from dementia - anybody who uses that dreadful affliction as an insult is beneath contempt in my book
Members here are persistently treated like children - one posted to me last week that "I am sorry I have to treat "old men" like children
That's's no way for anybody to act
Saying we can't criticise the mods is like saying we can't criticise our MPs when they are elected - the difference of course is tat we are not give the chance of who moderates us
The jonb of mods used to be to keep us from going for each other
Now they decide what we can discuss (as with Walter Pardon) and how long we can discuss subjects
A numbner of threads have been closed because a mod has decided we have debated it has been debated enough - that is for us to decide, surely
I have little doubt this discussion will disappear shortly - somethibng to do with the Transatlantic timeline that it hasn't already

Still nobody has refered to how Walter has been treated by the mods and trolss
(Can I hastily add that I am not referring to all the mods - just one)
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 20 - 08:27 AM (#4027975)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: John MacKenzie

He doesn't really like Brits Jim ;)


13 Jan 20 - 08:59 AM (#4027980)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: GUEST,jim bainbridge

It wasn't 'criticism' Jim C, it was abuse, and sadly I responded to it before I knew what I was dealing with.
I don't have any 'personal superstar' and although JC thinks the sun shines out of his hero's bottom, I am not going into all that again....
re Brits in Ireland, I lived happily there for 20 years off and on, but never suffered a hint of racism from either side of the Irish Sea- wonder why HE would?
He's got me going again, sorry, back to the iniquities of the mods, which is a mystery to me....
Bugger this Brendan, this came from Ireland as well- just off to put the covers back on the haybales again...


13 Jan 20 - 09:18 AM (#4027982)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

The WP thread was halted because of the abuse of people who don't like opinions that counter theirs and turn to abuse, troll-fashion. It is a gross lie to state that any of the mods have anything against WP.

Unfortunately I know of many people who have stopped contributing here because of the extreme behaviour sometimes exhibited.


13 Jan 20 - 09:22 AM (#4027983)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll

"but never suffered a hint of racism from either side of the Irish Sea- wonder why HE would?"
Neither have I off line Jim - why would I, I'm from Irish stock ?
I was referring to the racism from English trolls here on Mudcat - "plastic Paddies", Bogtrotter" etc
Several Irish friends stopped posting because of such behaviour some time ago
If the mods aren't going to deal with who are responsible (he refuses to and blames the victims) then we have to be allowed to in our own way otherwise it gets the forum a bad name
Ignoring them and being threatened with suspension if we do give them a free hand to continue - as they do
Jim


13 Jan 20 - 09:22 AM (#4027984)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Rain Dog

"The problem really arises when mods look down on people they work for - us"

and

"the difference of course is tat we are not give the chance of who moderates us"

I imagine that in the first place,the mods work for the person who runs the site, and in the second place, for the majority of people who post here.

We all have the chance to decide who moderates us. It is just a matter of setting up a site of our own.


13 Jan 20 - 09:25 AM (#4027985)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

There voices of common sense here who are being ignored already, Vic Smith, Jim Bainbridge, HiLo, Rain Dog...Anyone else like to chip in, Joe?


13 Jan 20 - 09:34 AM (#4027986)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Vic Smith

Steve Gardham -
Unfortunately I know of many people who have stopped contributing here because of the extreme behaviour sometimes exhibited.
I could name quite a few as well as I'm sure others here can. This is sad because one of the strengths of Mudcat in the past has been the breadth and variety of opinion expressed. Look through the list of posters for the more contentious threads and see how they are dominated by the few - often making repetitious points as though this will wear down the opinions of others.


13 Jan 20 - 09:36 AM (#4027987)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

A piece of obvious advice....bullying and insulting the mods is not going to get you anywhere, except a pat on the back from the trolls!


13 Jan 20 - 09:44 AM (#4027988)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

As a non-academic I have learnt a lot from Mudcat and don't regret my membership even though I've not been here as long as some. I welcome criticism and opposed views when well reasoned or backed up with facts, but like Vic I get weary of the same stuff being repeated ad-nauseam on thread after thread.


13 Jan 20 - 09:48 AM (#4027989)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

"...although JC thinks the sun shines out of his hero's bottom..."

And you think that helps?

I've never much of a MacColl fan myself. I appreciate his place in our music and some of his songs are sublime. Unlike Jim, I never knew the man in person, was never his friend and never worked with him. What I know of him, that he could be a troubled and troublesome man, that he was allegedly dictatorial at times, has to be full of caveats because everything I think I know is second- or third-hand. Now I could come on here, watching Jim out of the corner of my evil eye, gleefully anticipating a response and attack MacColl and all the stuff Jim says about him, and Jim to boot. I could tell Jim that he's daft because he thinks the sun shines out of his hero's bottom, like you've just done. Well wouldn't that just get us everywhere. Jim is highly opinionated on matters that he is entitled, with his intimate knowledge, to be highly opinionated about. And if he thinks you're wrong he'll tell you so. If you insulted him in your attack, he might just insult you back. It's a very unhappy scenario, is that. So why do you do it? I'm not jealous of Jim's knowledge. I could probably lose him on Mozart and Beethoven but I'm damn sure that wouldn't make him jealous. I'm attacked here by one particular blithering jealous idiot here because I'm a retired classroom science teacher. Wow.

I've only ever seen one mod operating on TheSession website and on the sadly-demised Gaughan forum. They rule(d) with a firm grip. If you sounded mean-spirited you'd get the famous "love letter." Good temper and positive demeanour demanded at all times. That sets the ethos that is so lamentably lacking at times here. If you trolled you were bloody well given the boot, for a week, a month, a year or forever. No commentary allowed. You were The Disappeared. I'd bet my last shirt that those mods have/had a lot less work to do than our overworked lot.


13 Jan 20 - 09:49 AM (#4027991)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Vic Smith

I get weary of the same stuff being repeated ad-nauseam on thread after thread.
I'm just glad that I have never, ever heard any dire squib about congregational flatulation.


13 Jan 20 - 09:53 AM (#4027992)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Vic Smith

the sadly-demised Gaughan forum.
That site only ended with the aging and ill-health of Molly, the webmaster, fellow fan of DG, good friend and near-neighbour.


13 Jan 20 - 09:55 AM (#4027993)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll

"bullying and insulting the mods is not going to get you anywhere,"
Describing their behaviour is harsdly "bullying and insulting" anybody Steve, it's simple defending yourself
Ifsomeone was to suggest you were suffering from dementia would you sit on your hands because it came from a mod ?
I should hope not
If we are regarded as "old men" and treated like "children" there is no future for this forum
Your "common sense" suggests a bias or a suggestion I am telling lies (which is why I didn't include you on my list when I circulated my protest to Joe
Say so if that's what you think
You have chosen your side obviously - there shouldn't have to be sides
You can and have been as abusive as anybody here as I have pointed out on the Fakelore thread (without my having named you) - first look to thyself (teh Bard)
As far as repetition goes, that happens in every argument when those arguments are ignored - be it in a pub, a political debate or a discussion forum - contention can be a positive thing if it is handled correctly
There's nothing more offputtingly boring than a discussion beteween nodding dogs
It is not for you to criticise how anybody choosed to make their point


13 Jan 20 - 10:03 AM (#4027995)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

I didn't know that Molly has been ill too, Vic. She won't remember me, but regards to her anyway. When I think back, I got told off a lot less by Molly than by Jeremy. She could be quite fearsome, and you didn't argue back!


13 Jan 20 - 10:10 AM (#4027998)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

>>>>>>Your "common sense" suggests a bias or a suggestion I am telling lies<<<<<<
And therein is encapsulated the problem as I see it.

>>>>>>You can and have been as abusive as anybody here<<<<<<<
Admitted, but way back when I first came across, what seemed to me at the time your preposterous position. I was sarcastic and dismissive and I apologised profusely both on the forum and privately by email.
Now point to any of my abuse to you in the last 3 years please.

>>>>>contention can be a positive thing if it is handled correctly<<<<<
Absolutely agree but you are not doing that.

>>>>> a discussion beteween nodding dogs<<<<<< Nobody is asking for that or expects it.

>>>>>>>>>It is not for you to criticise how anybody choosed to make their point<<<<< I thought that's what we were all doing???


13 Jan 20 - 10:11 AM (#4027999)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Rain Dog

JC "Still nobody has refered to how Walter has been treated by the mods and trolss"

In the WP thread, Nick Dow posted "I'm told Walter's favourite tea was a fried egg Brown bread and butter and vinegar. Brings tears to the stomach."

JC first post to the WP thread "Oh - and he ate like a pig
You should know better Nick, with your background"

No one had mentioned the word pig. Nick was quoting from the YouTube film which had been mentioned earlier in the thread. That film was "A documentary made by Edge TV for the Walter Pardon Memorial concert at The Atrium, North Walsham, early 2014."

The Sandman then pointed out to JC that he didn't think Nick or anyone else had said that WP ate like a pig.

Later the same day JC posted "And not one of you have had the good grace to even comment
You all out to be ashamed of yourselves"

On the 7.11.19 The Sandman posted "Why should i be ashamed of mentioning walters fondness for bananas, the human touch, it makes no difference to my respect for his repertoire. Harry Cox was an animal lover,they were people not just singers"

JC came back and said: ""Why should i be ashamed of mentioning walters fondness for bananas"
Why the **** should anyone be so ***** rude to comment on his eating habits especially ion these terms
"I'm told Walter's favourite tea was a fried egg Brown bread and butter and vinegar. Brings tears to the stomach."
Christ knows where that came from anyway - it's pure nasty invention and totally unnecessary - and you know it
I wonder how Nick would react to travellers being described in such a degrading way - or do I !!"

????


13 Jan 20 - 10:16 AM (#4028002)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

Anyone see a pattern emerging? You can find the same pattern on all the other threads.


13 Jan 20 - 10:20 AM (#4028003)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: John MacKenzie

About 7:30 AM in SF, won't be long now.


13 Jan 20 - 10:26 AM (#4028004)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

Morning, Joe!


13 Jan 20 - 10:31 AM (#4028006)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Nick

It is a little like people who have rented a property for a very long time being surprised when they find that they don't own it and that the person who owns it ultimately makes the rules and has the choices.


13 Jan 20 - 10:36 AM (#4028009)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe G

Yes the same tedious pattern Steve. It was notable on the 'Current State....' thread that discussion was more flowing and constructive during Jim's absences - even though I welcomed some of his contributions. There were disagreements and a few arguments but things soon got back on track.

Joe advised me he closed that thread down during the Christmas shut down. I didn't argue even though I felt there was still some mileage in it. In my view mods have the right to moderate as they see fit. If I was unhappy with the moderation of a site I would simply stop contributing and not complain to the world and his dog about it. That strikes me as egotistic


13 Jan 20 - 10:38 AM (#4028010)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

Nice analogy, Nick

Similar situation. I once volunteered on a community tug taking trips round the docks. One of the crew had been there a long time and acted as if he owned it to the extent that he was telling the managers to get off his boat. Needless to say he had to walk, but it was such a shame as he had a tremendous amount of knowledge to offer.


13 Jan 20 - 10:39 AM (#4028011)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll

Walter's eating habits weer exactly what I was talking about as part of thee treatment meted out to him
If, in a discussion about our work with Travellers say, someone made the comment that I picked my nose, I would be somewhat pissed off - not because I found it insulting, but because it would be a diversion away from the important things we have done or the mistakes we might have made
Typical of this type of thing is the fact that it has been impossible to discuss the work we did with Ewan because every time the subject is brought up it immediately sinks under a barrage of name change, war record and political leanings
We loose a chance to debate ten years work on singing folk songs every time
When I suggested that we concentrate on the important aspects of Ewan's work on the last thread about him, not only was I accused of censorship (by a fellow Mudcatter I believed to be a friend) but that accusation was repeated by Joe and I was suspended for two weeks
I don't think Walter's eating habits are fit for public discussion - it would have mortified him and it angered me
It wouldn't surprise me if people started debating why he had TWO SHEDS He actually had three!!

If I over-reacted at the time I apologise - that happens too us all - my point remains, both about Walter's eating habits and Ewan's contribution to the theory of singing

Your comments go no way to explain or apologisee for your own behaviour Steve, yet you choose to single out mine as if your were innocent of all sin
We are as guilty as one another in these matters - laying the blame on others does not alter that one iota
Jim


13 Jan 20 - 10:40 AM (#4028013)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Rain Dog

Steve Gardham posted "Needless to say he had to walk"

Not the plank I hope.


13 Jan 20 - 10:43 AM (#4028015)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Nick

(Not the Nick referred to above)

Here's a serious suggestion why not have a 'Deleted Posts' thread where all the deleted posts could be put? I think it might serve certain positive functions.

It would highlight who was being deleted
It would highlight what behaviours lead to deletion - the aggrieved/deleted party then would have the choice as to maintaining or changing their behaviour
It would allow others to judge whether it was justified or not.
It would also name and shame - and highlight whether it is biased or fair

And it would allow those who just love reading the disagreements to wallow in the joy of reading through pages and pages of abuse, trolling, purposeful misunderstanding, etc etc etc

AND PERHAPS

Then it could stay out of the threads and we could talk about music.

I don't post much (50 - 300 posts per year) compared with those who posts are measured in thousands.

Over the years I have met people through it, played music through it, been helped by and helped others (hopefully, I try), and had some very silly days posting rubbish and terrible puns and I thank Max and those who run it that it is here and keeps going.

There does seem to be a race too get back to long running arguments and antipathies that cross threads with alacrity and it does get in the way of a lot of the positive stuff that goes on here.

I think I may start a rather more positive thread with a positive message but thought I would put something here.


13 Jan 20 - 10:44 AM (#4028016)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

:)


13 Jan 20 - 10:50 AM (#4028017)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Nick

Sorry to interrupt the discussion about eating that noone gives a shit about. THERE is a classic example of the Mudcat equivalkent of Groundhog Day. FFFS move onwards rather going back to it. Or stick it on a thread called "Definitive Information about x's eating habits' and then noone has to go over it again and again and again.


13 Jan 20 - 10:51 AM (#4028019)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

Too many Nicks, jims and Steves. I'll give meself a pseudonym....er 'Two Sheds Steve'.


13 Jan 20 - 10:54 AM (#4028020)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: The Sandman

for a moderator to suggest that nic jones stole his guitr arrangements, is libellous and still he has not apologised


13 Jan 20 - 10:56 AM (#4028021)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Vic Smith

Steve Shaw wrote about Molly:-
She could be quite fearsome, and you didn't argue back!

Not half! I never had occasion to fall out with her - but I have been present when she did with others and it was not a pretty sight!
But she has a heart of gold and when she took a cause to her heart she was always totally whole-hearted. She was always there week after week at our folk club brimming with enthusiasm, often knitting those black and white striped jumpers for members for the 'smugglers' section of the Cliffe Bonfire Society to wear in their parades.
She and Howard would manage to fit in one 'freebie' piece of Web Design each year amongst the many they made in the running of their business. I was the beneficiary of these on a number of occasions:-
* She designed and managed a website for Rocket FM in Lewes and my folk and world music programmes were always given prominence in her management of the site.
* She took over, extended and extensively developed the website for The Copper Family.
* She totally redesigned our folk club website making it much more attractive and user friendly.
* When we organised the first British tour for the great Gambian kora jali Jali Sherrifo Conteh we invited her and over 100 others to a reception prior to his first concert. She was totally charmed by this amiable, very talented man and offered to redesign the website that we ran for him. She showed us how to set up a merchandising section of the large website where we could sell his CDs and also the batiks for another talented Gambian that we supported, Buba Drammeh, The money from the sales on that website all went with other money raised and earned to enable both Sherrifo and Buba to buy land and build their own compounds.

So let's hear it for Molly!

(Sorry about this thread drift but I have never really had the chance to praise her anywhere other than in person - and it is theraputic for me to write positive things rather being critical of the actions of others. It is much more in my nature to want to bring out the good things that happen.)


13 Jan 20 - 11:00 AM (#4028023)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

Good for you and Molly, Vic!


13 Jan 20 - 11:02 AM (#4028024)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Rain Dog

Nick posted "Or stick it on a thread called "Definitive Information about x's eating habits' and then noone has to go over it again and again and again."

Maybe you meant to say "no one has to regurgitate it again and again"


13 Jan 20 - 11:05 AM (#4028026)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

When Joe does get to the thread can I suggest he alters the misleading title (see 2nd post) to 'Closed thread'. Even if this one gets closed at least it will then be accurate.


13 Jan 20 - 11:08 AM (#4028028)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

Where were we? I've lost the thread.


13 Jan 20 - 11:15 AM (#4028029)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome

Are you just needling someone, Steve? :-)


13 Jan 20 - 11:18 AM (#4028032)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

Bloody sew and sew...


13 Jan 20 - 11:19 AM (#4028034)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

Jim gave me an ultimatum yesterday, insisting that the Walter Pardon thread must be reopened. I refused, because the thread had become a battleground, It became a battleground again the last time I reopened it. I offered to allow another Walter Pardon thread in a month, once things had settled down. apparently, this offer was unsatisfactory.
We will leave this thread open for a while today, and let people say what they I want to say.


13 Jan 20 - 11:28 AM (#4028041)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Nick

That nice Mr Jones is very self deprecating about his guitar playing in this discussion from some years ago chatting with Sam Carter. He describes his playing style on Canadee-i-o as 'accidental' :)


13 Jan 20 - 11:58 AM (#4028048)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Stilly River Sage

This thread is doomed, but the topic of "lost thread" (or "forgotten threads," those that Keberoxu hasn't found yet and sent back to the top) is a good one. I was sorry to find instead the usual bickering about trolls and moderation, but seeing how many posts appeared on it so quickly, I should have known the topic wasn't music.

Until the time comes to start a new Walter Pardon thread, why not sift through your own histories of posts and see what topics are already out there that are still viable discussions today? Send some of those old chestnuts back to the top again.


13 Jan 20 - 12:31 PM (#4028052)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome

It seams that way, Steve.


13 Jan 20 - 12:48 PM (#4028053)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: GUEST,Nemisis

The serial thread (c)loser are practing their dark art again

Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:15 AM

Are you just needling someone, Steve? :-)


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Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jan 20 - 11:18 AM

Bloody sew and sew...


13 Jan 20 - 12:55 PM (#4028056)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Vic Smith

Is Nemisis saying that Dave & Steve are stitching us up?


13 Jan 20 - 01:13 PM (#4028058)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: John MacKenzie

Nem con Nemisis.


13 Jan 20 - 01:16 PM (#4028059)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jack Campin

I've never knowingly heard Walter Pardon (and every successive supercilious blowhard post by Jim Carroll makes me less interested in doing so) so I guessed he might be a sort of English Willie Scott (who I have heard in person, he was spectacular).

But I couldn't find a thread here about Scott, which surprised me. Is there one?


13 Jan 20 - 01:17 PM (#4028060)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome

Nah, we have cottened on to that.


13 Jan 20 - 01:23 PM (#4028061)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll

"and every successive supercilious blowhard post by Jim Carroll makes me less interested in doing so) "
Aren't you the one who constantly whinges about my behaviour Jack
Look at your own and stop behaving like a Shuggie
Jim Carroll


13 Jan 20 - 01:37 PM (#4028068)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

I feel like I'm bobbin in and out of this thread. Darn it, I may look stupid, but believe me, I'm nobody's spool...


13 Jan 20 - 01:41 PM (#4028072)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome

Do you think Nemesis is trying to stitch us up?


13 Jan 20 - 01:55 PM (#4028078)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: The Sandman

I think you are unfit to run this forum, you have made a libellous statement about Nic Jones, andyoucannot see how a close friend of Walter Pardon would be offended by the term Pardon INDUSTRY, to quote oliver cromwell you have shat here too long be gone


13 Jan 20 - 02:09 PM (#4028084)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

Dick doesn't need any winding up.


13 Jan 20 - 02:14 PM (#4028085)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome

Reely?


13 Jan 20 - 02:16 PM (#4028086)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

Weave gotta stop doing this!


13 Jan 20 - 02:35 PM (#4028088)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jim Carroll

You people really need to cotton onto yourselves ans stop acting sew silly it seams to me
Jim


13 Jan 20 - 03:15 PM (#4028093)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: John MacKenzie

Jack Campin, you're stirring the pot again. There are people as ignorant of Willie Scott, as you are of Walter Pardon. Maybe they should do something to remedy that, rather than boast about their ignorance.


13 Jan 20 - 03:30 PM (#4028094)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Vic Smith

Jack Campin wrote:-
I've never knowingly heard Walter Pardon .... so I guessed he might be a sort of English Willie Scott...
I saw WP only once and then he only sang a couple of songs in a concert with lots of other people; I saw WS many times - brought him down to Brighton to sing at our club and he stayed with us for a couple of nights. I had many conversations with Willie but never spoke to Walter and for that reason alone, I would be more likely to have favoured Willie. He was a public performer long before the folk revival came along - singing at harvest homes, village concerts and the like whereas Walter had not been a public singer before Peter Bellamy and others encouraged him.

Listening to recordings of both, I would not like to say which is the better singer. Camparisons would be invidious - I'm just galad to have heard two great singers with different styles.


13 Jan 20 - 04:02 PM (#4028097)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

We had Willie at Hull many times and I MCd concerts at Whitby Festival where he was guest lots of times.

Ah can puttock and Ah can twin, Ah can shear 'em tae the skin, but Ah wish the cauldest winds ud nivver blaw.

And his 'College Valley Hounds' was electric.

Ah ay hev Willie's buik as well!


13 Jan 20 - 04:36 PM (#4028104)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Richard Mellish

Thank heavens there has been a bit of humour on this thread.


13 Jan 20 - 05:21 PM (#4028118)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

OK, I guess I ought to address some things. Let's deal with Dick Miles (Sandman) first, because he's mostly tagging along for the ride and has no recent reason for complaint (although that doesn't stop him from complaining).

Dick Miles (aka, Sandman, Good Soldier Schweik, and Captain Birdseye) complained recently because KarenH changed her name to Guest,Pseudonymous (I was annoyed about that, too, but not enough to take any action against her). Dick was offended when I brought up his own history of name changes.

Dick was also offended because I called him "arsehole" in a personal message. He neglected to say that this was in 2009, when I gave him a humorous "Certified Asshole" award after months of receiving complaints several times a week from him about real or imagined "personal attacks" against him. Much of the time, the "attacks" were simply remarks that disagreed with Dick. The worst were from people who didn't like his performance in a concert. Oftentimes, he wouldn't tell me where the objectionable message was, so I had to go back and ask him. Finally, I had enough of the pettiness of his complaints, so I gave him the asshole award. It was probably naughty to give him such an award, but do I have to be perfect all the time?

Oh, and then my purported attack on Nic Jones, which took place in the Folk Snobbery thread.
  • Steve Shaw said, "Then was was the charlatan Dylan stealing Nic Jones's arrangement of Canadee-I-O...."
  • I confess that I was rather flippant in responding, "Which, of course, Nic Jones stole from somebody else - but Nic Jones didn't make any money on it...." (without stating clearly that I meant it was the song that Nic Jones got from somebody else - 08 Jan 20 - 03:28 PM)
  • Thirty minutes later, Dick Miles said, "joe, nic jones did not steal a guitar arrangement from anybody, you are ignorant, check it out, or better still keep your mouth shut when you do not know what you are talking about."
  • And Steve Shaw said, "Retract, Joe. You got that wrong."
  • Mind you, I left the thread after my flippant post and did other things, and didn't return to the thread until noon the next day, almost 24 hours later. I was surprised to see how upset people were about my little remark. I posted:
      "Shitfire. The Indignancy Corps are at it again. I meant to compliment Nic Jones, not to castigate him. Nic Jones brought new life into many well-used songs and made them his own - but most were not completely his own compositions. Dylan did much the same, but made a lot of money on it (and got sued for it). Maybe Dylan ain't as 'orrible as some make him out to be. But I tend to prefer the work of Nic Jones."
I thought I gave a reasonable clarification of what I had intended to say, but apparently I was not satisfactorily contrite. No doubt, Sandman will be going on about this putative offense for the next ten years. But please, I apologize and grovel and the feet of All England for my careless use of the word "which."

Dick is also insulted about the "Walter Pardon Industry," but it's better to talk about that later.

So, that's the deal with Sandman. He's a capable musician and I've learned a lot from things he's posted when he's actually talking about music. But he is very easily offended and likely to complain about offenses for years and years. And if he takes offense, he goes on and on and on about it.

-Joe-


13 Jan 20 - 05:33 PM (#4028121)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

You also told me a while ago that you thought that Jim had dementia and you headed a PM to me "Fuck you, Stevie" only last week.


13 Jan 20 - 05:45 PM (#4028125)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

Oh, and you called me "bitch" in that post too.


13 Jan 20 - 05:47 PM (#4028127)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Gardham

Oh dear. it's hotting up again! I'll stick to the wisecracks and leave the insults to those who enjoy it.


13 Jan 20 - 05:49 PM (#4028129)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe G

Bloody hell it's getting like a children's playground with added swearing!


13 Jan 20 - 05:56 PM (#4028132)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

I personally haven't insulted anybody in this thread. In fact, I've measured my words carefully and stuck to facts. I've kept every PM that I've received or sent for the last three and a half years. I'm a bit reluctant to sit back when I see partial defences intended to make the defender look justified. I've even tried humour. There's more of that if you want it. I don't want to sound crochety...


13 Jan 20 - 06:09 PM (#4028133)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

And now on to Jim Carroll, an interesting person, indeed. Jim joined the Forum about 2008, and he and I had friendly exchanges about folk music matters for almost ten years. He sent me a lot of valuable recordings and such that he had collected by Dropbox. But Dropbox didn't work very well on my rural Internet connection, so I ordered a portable hard drive for him to use for sending information to me.

Then in 2017, I started receiving messages from Jim that complained about bobad and teribus and objectionable messages. Eventually, bobad and teribus and akenaton were banned from Mudcat, but I never learned why or by whom. Also in 2017, Jim began complaining about being "appalled" by the closure of one thread or another. I don't know if I'm the one responsible for those thread closures or not. I don't like censorship, and I don't believe in deleting messages or threads unless there is an absolutely clear reason for doing so. Otherwise, I close threads and post a brief explanation for the closure - usually that the combat got out of hand, and it's time to make a new start. Even though the thread still exists to be read by everyone, Jim doesn't like thread closure. On June 8, 2018, Jim sent me a message saying he was resigning from Mudcat, said he was considering erasing the hard drive I sent him, and returning it to me blank. I told him that if that's what he decided, he could just keep the hard drive.

In hindsight, perhaps I should have responded to his resignation by deleting his membership and blocking him from access to Mudcat, but I didn't. We really don't like to do that. By June 14, 2018, he was back to posting; and he was telling me about things he had added to my hard drive. And things were relatively calm until June, 2019. Since then, I have received about one long message a day complaining about things.
On 10 August 2019, I received my first of many complaints from him about Iains and his conservative politics, with demands that Iains be banned from Mudcat. And then after Iains backed off, I began to receive complaints about Pseudonymous. And it's obvious that both Iains and Pseudonymous were trolling Jim. No doubt about it, and we were taking action against both of them as we saw it was needed - but not to the point of totally banning either one. Both Iains and Pseudonymous have knowledge of and involvement in folk music, and many of their posts are of some value. So, are we to ban these people from Mudcat, simply because they are doing battle with Jim Carroll? Or do we try to deal with the animosity without a total ban of one or the other?

I decided to take a third path, as I often do. I told Jim Carroll that he had to stop doing battle with Iains and Pseudonymous. He was free to express disagreement with what they said, but he was not allowed to do battle with them.

More later.

-Joe-


13 Jan 20 - 06:13 PM (#4028134)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

I actually don't have anything to say about Little Stevie Shaw. He likes to do battle, and he is very adept at it.
I don't dare argue with him, because he can twist the most innocent comment into something he can attack. The worst I can do, is call him "Little Stevie." He hates that.
But he lives for combat. I bet he wears camouflage pajamas at night, and sleeps beside his semi-automatic weapon.

-Joe Offer-


13 Jan 20 - 06:31 PM (#4028139)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Richard Mellish

Joe Offer, thank you for that dose of common sense.


13 Jan 20 - 06:38 PM (#4028142)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: GUEST,Nemisis

Has the semi-automatic weapon" vodka s solomoy" has an English equivalent referring to Proseco


13 Jan 20 - 06:38 PM (#4028143)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Dave the Gnome

I realise that may have been tongue in cheek, Joe, but, honest, we don't do that over here. Guns are strictly a US issue. I am sure he will see semi-automatic weapon with a humourous eye...

    Yeah, it was meant humorously. Where I live, I am surrounded by people who really do wear camouflage and treasure their weapons. And they are just as humo(u)rless as Little Stevie.
    -Joe

And this is nothing more than trolling, Joe.
You'll note that I always sign my remarks. Maybe you should, too. I don't see a place for anger and animosity at Mudcat - or in life, for that matter. But I find anger and animosity to be particularly absurd on a Website meant for music discussion. Rather than responding with anger and animosity, I respond with humor. I suppose angry people find that particularly aggravating, but such is life. But is my humor "trolling" - I don't think so. It's just pointing out the absurdity. I thought Steve's camouflage pajamas were pretty funny.
-Joe Offer-


13 Jan 20 - 06:45 PM (#4028146)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

So, let's go on with Jim Carroll, since he seems to be demanding a response. Jim's primary interests seem to be Ewan MacColl and Walter Pardon. He had extended personal contact with them, and I really want to know everything Jim can teach us about these two extraordinary performers. Jim accused me of patronizing, but that's not true. I really want to know what he has to say, without him being distracted by becoming indignant about interference from people he considers to be trolls. But I can't do away with those he considers to be trolls - they are people, too, and often have things to say that are of value. Pseudonymous and Iains are every bit as obnoxious as Jim himself can be. Somehow, we have to find a way to leave all that behind and just talk about the folk music.
But as far as I can understand right now, what Jim wants is the total banning of Iains and Pseudonymous/KarenH, and the reopening of the Walter Pardon thread. Once I do that, no doubt he will have other demands - but I can't do any of those things.
-Joe-


13 Jan 20 - 06:47 PM (#4028148)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Mossback

I've no dog in this fight, but I think Holy Joe doth protest - and bloviate - way too much.

Critic, critique thyself.


13 Jan 20 - 06:55 PM (#4028153)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

Mossback, despite his denials, appears to be longtime Mudcatter Greg_F, who was banned from Mudcat and had his membership deleted - I do not believe in banning people from Mudcat, and I only reluctantly concurred with the decision to ban Greg_F; but other moderators think that "banning" is effective. He applied for membership under another name, and I registered him. But he sometimes posts under the same IP Greg_F used, so I think that it's clear that Mossback and Greg are the same person, or at least posting from the same computer. And it's very true that most of the posts from Greg_F (and subsequently from Mossback) have been combative. I think we need to live with the reality that there are some persistent "trolls" who will always be with us, and we need to learn to live with them. I believe that if we attempt to take action against them, it makes them stronger.
I do think that "Holy Joe" is anti-religious bigotry, an attempt to exclude and dismiss someone because of one's religious affiliation. But, despite the proclivity of some Mudcatters to make a Big Deal out of every little thing, I'll let it pass.

-Joe Offer-


13 Jan 20 - 07:15 PM (#4028157)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

Yeah, Joe, you are the utimate in defensiveness. I asked you to call me by my real name, which is Steve. It's the only name I've used on any forum I've been on, it's honest and plain and I don't think it's asking too much to want you to not twist it around. You appear to have refused. I threatened to call you Holy Joe if you persisted but I've refrained. I'll go high, Joe, and leave that particular piece of petty small-mindedness, and childishness, to you. As for humour, I post more in joke threads than anyone else. Don't argue with me over that, Jim, because you're too old to wrestle me... :-). I inject my brand of humour into many a long thread (including this one: I'm not asking anyone to laugh...) and I often do it to relieve tension. On the question of facts, bobad has not been banned from this forum. On Iains, his contributions, an inappropriate word in fact, are not "political conservatism." They are variously neo-fascist rants and propaganda. And his input to the music section, despite your claim, is tokenistic and minimal. He's a far-right plant, but, for reasons you have never remotely convincingly explained, you actually want him here. We can guess, educatedly. You have admitted to me more that once in private messages that he's a "bad troll." So do something. Sweeten the place. Make your life ten times easier.
    OK, Stevie, you're right. Bobad has not been suspended. He just hasn't been posting. But the fact of the matter remains - most of those who were "banned," are still here. And they will be here, unless we make a constant effort to keep them from posting. So, why ban anybody? Just to make Jim Carroll happy?
    -Joe Offer-


13 Jan 20 - 07:38 PM (#4028159)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

Mossback messages me frequently and calls himself Bill. I call him Bill all the time here because I think he's called Bill. Greg Furness is a very good man. Greg knew how to get up noses but his sentiments were morally spot-on. Greg's posts and Mossback's posts are different in expression and demeanour. If it's the same bloke, he's doing an amazing job of keeping two identities separate. In the past I've found people who try that on to give themselves away very quickly. Bobad is the prime example. This IP address business is a bit odd, and a minefield, innit, Joe? You told me several years go (I have the PM) that you'd pinned down, via IP addresses, bobad as someone who also posted anonymously as a guest in order to troll. The indirect upshot of that was to prevent unsigned people posting in BS. A very good move. These days, y'all tell us that you can't possibly track Iains down. Thing is, you can just cancel his membership and rid this place of a major cause of the blight that you're always complaining about. But you won't. I think I'm beginning to work out why.

And if you get rid of Jim this forum dies. Your choice. You can nitpick about me, Jim and Dick, but where's your vision, Joe?


13 Jan 20 - 07:42 PM (#4028160)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

OK, so I think we need to talk about the "Walter Pardon Industry." Jim Carroll says that the closure of the most recent Walter Pardon thread is an insult to Walter Pardon. I closed the thread twice because it had become combative, and had made rational discussion of Walter Pardon impossible - but Jim does not accept that explanation.

Pseudonymous started the thread on 5 November 2019. I have good reason to think that Pseudonymous started the thread in order to provoke Jim Carroll, but she did a fair amount of research and posted substantive information about Walter Pardon - more substantive information than had been posted previously at Mudcat. She included a number of questions - and it was clear that the questions were likely to provoke the anger of Jim Carroll. But still, Jim had the choice of answering the questions rationally, or becoming indignant and focusing on conflict rather than facts.

One particularly provocative expression from Pseudonymous was "Walter Pardon industry," and that one hit the jackpot. The term "Pardon Industry" was mentioned 18 times in the thread, and also in a number of other threads. It was deemed to be a rude insult to the reputation of Walter Pardon, but I wonder if it was. Some people didn't like Walter Pardon's singing, but I think that's mostly a matter of taste. I really don't think that Walter Pardon made a whole lot of money from his performances, and I'm inclined to think that Walter wasn't particularly interested in making lots of money from his singing. But still, the term "Walter Pardon Industry" made me think. There were a number of traditional "source singers" who were exploited by middle-class collectors.
It's Conventional Wisdom (true or not) to say that the Lomaxes and Peter Kennedy and John Jacob Niles exploited source singers, but were they the only ones? And couldn't it be fact that certain singers were exploited to the point that they became an "industry"? Certainly, Lead Belly was one traditional singer who became an "industry," and collectors and record companies made a fair amount of money from him. Lead Belly made a reasonable living from his recordings but certainly not what he deserved.
And what about Ralph Peer and the recordings he made at Bristol on the Virgina-Tennessee border? There's no doubt that Peer made an "industry" of the working-class singers he exploited. Try licensing a Carter Family song for recording, and you'll find that Ralph Peer's "industry" still exists.
So, was there a Walter Pardon or Harvey Cox or Joe Heaney or Frank Harte or Fred Jordan "industry"? Maybe so, or maybe not. But it's a matter worth discussing. And certainly, the term "industry" is not an insult to these wonderful traditional singers. It's an entree to a discussion of what is and is not appropriate in the "collecting" of songs from traditional singers.

So, was it an insult to Walter Pardon to bring up the question of a possible "Walter Pardon industry"? Certainly not. It may have been an insult to the collectors, but the collector tried to pawn it off as an insult to Walter Pardon. And no matter what you think of the morality of collecting songs from (or capitalizing on) traditional singers, I'm glad we have these recordings to study and enjoy.

And was it an insult to Walter Pardon to close a contentious thread about him that drifted off into personal invective and worse? Well, I suppose that's a matter of personal opinion, but my opinion also counts. And I think it was an injustice to Walter Pardon to leave such a contentious thread open.

-Joe Offer-


13 Jan 20 - 07:43 PM (#4028161)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

I feel like I am on trial here, and I don't quite know why. All I want, is for Mudcat to be a place where people can be able to freely discuss folk music. Nothing more - I have no agenda. I guess that's more-or-less what I have to say.
I'm sure there are those who will find fault with me and attribute all sorts of interior motives to me. My ex-wife did that, and she was mostly wrong.
All I want is to be able to discuss the music without all this other shit.
Jim Carroll, I guess it's up to you. You have a lot of good information to share with us. We really can't do much about the trolls. We try to control them, but we ask you not to respond to them because that inflates everything they post.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-


13 Jan 20 - 07:51 PM (#4028164)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Jeri

Joe, do you think anybody who's reading this is going to trust you, or Mudcat, with their personal information? They shouldn't.
    Maybe so, maybe not. But when people like Mossback and Pseudonymous leave us and then post under deceptive identities, I think they've betrayed the good faith we offered them in the first place. If they join us and then leave and then troll undercover, I don't think we owe them anonymity.
    -Joe Offer-


13 Jan 20 - 08:06 PM (#4028166)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

That's all very well but you are a moderator, and we should be able to expect fairness and consistency from you. We are currently not seeing it. Jeri and Maggie will be reading this thread and maybe wondering whether they should close ranks with you or just keep schtum (or they're just not bothered, who knows?) We know that you three don't get on. I have ample PMs to prove it. On one occasion you banned me for a week, then, within hours, Maggie reinstated me. Bet you felt great about that. It's a big problem, Joe, and while you three are keeping each other at arm's length, Rome is burning, plagued by uncontrolled trolls. You know summat, Joe, this is an important website, and that is simply not good enough.

Did you see what Jeremy did at at the Session a few years ago? He rejigged the website and he set a whole new agenda about what was acceptable and what wasn't, after years of the kind of negativity that we currently see here. For a while he shat on dissidents. I could argue that something vibrant about the place was lost, but his no-nonsense policy worked. The Session will survive. And, as far as I know, Jeremy does it on his own. Look and learn. And stop blaming victims of trollery for "driving people away." Too bloody easy, is that. The general tone of the place is what might be driving people away. It's up to you mods to try to set the right tone, and to get us onside. You could start by growing up and calling me Steve, etc., for example. You can do it if you want to. That seems in doubt at the moment, unfortunately.


13 Jan 20 - 08:06 PM (#4028167)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

To be clear, I cross-posted with Jeri.


13 Jan 20 - 08:11 PM (#4028169)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Mossback

Mossback, despite his denials, appears to be longtime Mudcatter Greg_F

Holy Joe:

I've never denied it, as I've never been asked.

"Appears to be" - rather like Trump claims it "appeared to be" that Sulamani was planning an "imminent attack". Good to know you're a part of the fact-free, post-truth bullshit spouting contingent.

He applied for membership under another name

Evidence? Proof?

But he sometimes posts under the same IP Greg_F used

Evidence? Proof?

"I Have In My Hands...."

You're right- "Holy Joe" is inappropriate.

"TAIL-GUNNER JOE isn't.


13 Jan 20 - 09:12 PM (#4028175)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

If this is supposed to be some kind of open and honest thread, then I suggest that Joe Offer should respond with normal posts as the rest of us have to. Adding bits on in red to people's posts is just pulling rank. Yes, we know you're a mod, Joe. We don't need reminding in red.


13 Jan 20 - 09:15 PM (#4028176)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

So, Jim, I think I'm going to spite you by NOT suspending or removing your membership....and by not closing the "Closed Threads" thread quite yet. I did my best to give rational responses to your charges. I hope that you will read them and consider them seriously.

I sincerely hope that you will continue to be at Mudcat to share the valuable experiences that you have had. I'm at Mudcat because I want to learn, not to prove a point or win a battle. I think you have a lot you can teach me. My only reason for doing any moderator action at Mudcat is to stop the fighting, because I just can't stand it. I'm a pacifist, and I try my hardest to keep believing that peaceful and constructive human interaction is possible, and that it should be the norm for us in the folk music community. I suppose it's hard for me to make my point of view believable to those who believe in the necessity of combat.

-Joe Offer-


P.S. Steve Shaw, I do my best to ignore what you have to say. You seem to have no purpose on earth, other than to do battle.


13 Jan 20 - 09:17 PM (#4028177)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

"But when people like Mossback and Pseudonymous leave us and then post under deceptive identities..."

Mossback is a signed-in member. You have yet to show that he's posting under a "deceptive identity." Pseudonymous is an unsigned guest. The two cases are entirely different and you know it.
    No, Stevie, I suppose I have no proof that will satisfy you. It's just coincidence that Mossback and Greg_F shared the same IP on a number of posts, and nobody else.
    -Joe Offer-

    And too bad if it offends you - but I find it more efficient to answer challenges about operational issues in the message where the challenge is posed. The idea is to get the job done, not to operate according to your specifications - and not to expand the issue beyond the post where it began.


13 Jan 20 - 09:23 PM (#4028178)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Steve Shaw

That's very judgemental coming from an alleged Catholic. I have many a purpose here on earth, ninety-nine percent of which you know nothing about. A pretty stupid remark, Joe. And a decent pacifist would be only too happy to comply with my very simple request to use my real name instead of taking the piss out of it. You appear to not know yourself very well, Joe. That could be the problem here.


13 Jan 20 - 09:43 PM (#4028180)
Subject: RE: Review: Lost threads
From: Joe Offer

I'll leave Steve's comments to speak for themselves. Like Mossback, he doesn't have anything to say about music at all. They like to fight, and I don't.

As for Jim Carroll and Dick Miles, they do have a lot of music experience and knowledge. The only issue I have with them, is their proclivity to be distracted by posts that they consider to be insulting. If they could just stop fighting all these real or imagined insults, I think they'd be a lot happier here.

The majority of us here want to talk folk music, and not do battle. Why not join us, Dick and Jim? You'll be surprised how quickly the trolls disappear when you limit yourselves to talking folk music. They thrive when you're indignant, but they get bored and go away if you just talk folk music.

-Joe Offer-

    OK, I think this thread has gone on long enough. We don't ordinarily allow threads that discuss moderator actions, and I was more frank than I ought to be because I thought it was important in this particular situation. This thread is closed. If you want to discuss this matter further, feel free to do so in personal messages or by email to max@mudcat.org or joe@mudcat.org