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Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine

06 Sep 07 - 12:53 PM (#2142539)
Subject: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Cstargazy

Is there a link between Tam Lin and Tamberlaine/


06 Sep 07 - 01:00 PM (#2142542)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: The Borchester Echo

Can't think of one.

Tam Lin is a tale of fornication with fairies at Carterhaugh whereas Tambulaine is a Marlowe play based loosely on a Persian emperor, Timor the Lame.


06 Sep 07 - 01:02 PM (#2142545)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: The Borchester Echo

Oops, Tamburlaine the Great.


06 Sep 07 - 01:38 PM (#2142565)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Q (Frank Staplin)

Tamberlaine also a long poem by Poe. Threads on Tam lin here at Mudcat.
But Diane's answer is to the point- no relation.


06 Sep 07 - 04:22 PM (#2142701)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Billy

Fornication with fairies? Diane Easby hasn't a clue! Read or listen to the tale before taking her silly comment seriously.


06 Sep 07 - 07:26 PM (#2142868)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: The Borchester Echo

'None that go by Carterhaugh
but they leave him a pledge
Either their mantles of green
or else their maidenheads

For if my love were an earthly knight
as he is an elfin grey
I'd not change my own true love
for any knight you have'


So what else would you call it?
OK Tam Lin isn't a real fairy.
The Queen of the Fairies transformed him from a human after he fell off his horse.
For seven years (isn't it always?)
And the night, very conveniently, was Halloween, so he's rescued before the Queen can turn him into a tree.
Hurrah.


06 Sep 07 - 08:13 PM (#2142898)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Barry Finn

F ornication
U nder the
C onsent of the
K ing

in Tam Lin's case, under the Queen?

Barry


06 Sep 07 - 09:37 PM (#2142950)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Effsee

Diane, I think you'll find that Timor the Lame was a Ta(r)tar who actually conquered the Persians.


07 Sep 07 - 02:43 AM (#2143064)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: The Borchester Echo

He conquered everybody and created a really big Persia.
Tam Lin didn't.
All he did was get Janet to beat the Fairy Queen.


07 Sep 07 - 04:26 AM (#2143111)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: PMB

Any connection between Tam Lin and Tam Pax?


07 Sep 07 - 04:44 AM (#2143119)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Jack Blandiver

It says Tim Lin on the cover of my wife's CD copy of Leige & Lief; no doubt a relative of Staines Norris on her CD copy of Anthems in Eden...


07 Sep 07 - 07:27 AM (#2143178)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Shimrod

Around 1967/68 I heard the late, great Bert Lloyd sing his anglicised version of the Scottish ballad, 'Tam Lin' at Peterborough Folk Club. I believe that Bert's version was partly based on a version (or versions) collected in the mid 60s from Scots Travellers. I'm sure that Bert called the protagonist of his version 'Tamberlane' or 'Tamburlane'. To this day I have no idea why.

'Tamburlaine'/'Tamerlane' (sometimes referred to as 'Timur the Lame') was, of course (as has been pointed out above), a Tartar warrior who, at the end of the 14th Century/beginning of the 15th Century conquered Persia and, at the battle of Ankara(1402)defeated and imprisoned the Ottoman Sultan, Bayezit. No connection whatsoever with a Scottish ballad, as far as I can see. But Bert was a wily old fox, who, no doubt, knew very well who Tamburlaine was. But, try as I might, I can't come up with a rational reason for why he should have deliberately set out to cause such confusion (perhaps he was imbuing an already mysterious ballad with yet another layer of mystery).


07 Sep 07 - 07:43 AM (#2143189)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: PMB

And is he the same as the little Tammy Lin in Ding Dong Bell?


07 Sep 07 - 08:45 AM (#2143220)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: manitas_at_work

I had that as Tommy Flynn.


07 Sep 07 - 09:25 AM (#2143237)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Cstargazy

Thank you all, especially Shimrod. I too thought the gap was too far to bridge, but I too had a recollection of Bert Lloyd connecting/conflating the two guys...he said many amazing things when he came to our college folk club in the sixties...giving Buddhist Bodisivetta origins to the 'Twa Magigians'and ancient mediterranean basin links to 'God Rest you merry Gentlmen'...must get another copy of his big book ..which some unpleasant toad took from my bookshelf...mmm could have been my brother...and I quite like him....anyway thanks and any further thoughts on possible link welcomed


07 Sep 07 - 10:48 AM (#2143285)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Billy

So, Diane Easby, he didn't fornicate any witches.


07 Sep 07 - 10:58 AM (#2143295)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: The Borchester Echo

'Fornicate' is a transitive verb requiring a direct object (and in this case, a preposition).
OK, It's not very nice to call Janet an 'object' but Tam Lin sure as hell shagged her.
But nobody said she was a witch . . .

Well up then spoke her father clear
and he spoke meek and mild
"Oh and alas Janet" he said
"I think you go with child."

Oh they will turn me in your arms
to a newt or a snake
But hold me tight and fear not,
I am your baby's father.


07 Sep 07 - 11:04 AM (#2143303)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: The Borchester Echo

A multiplicity of versions of Child #39


07 Sep 07 - 11:08 AM (#2143308)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Billy

Exactly, he didn't fornicate with a witch as you first suggested.


07 Sep 07 - 11:14 AM (#2143316)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: PMB

No, she said fairies, I think she was trying to suggest that young Tam was gay, which would make young Janet male. Personally I see no evidence of this, but the fairy queen was a bit of a bitch.


07 Sep 07 - 11:25 AM (#2143319)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: The Borchester Echo

PMB, I think you're veering somewhat into The Rocky Horror Show . . .


07 Sep 07 - 02:47 PM (#2143449)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Shimrod

I should really do some research before I sound off!

First, the Scottish Travellers from who the 'Tam Lin' versions were collected were Betsy Johnston and Willie Whyte. The texts are very fragmentary but I think that I can hear Bert's tune in both versions. You can hear these tantalising fragments on the CD 'The Muckle Sangs' (Greentrax Records, CDTRAX 9005, 1992). The frustrating thing about this CD is that the notes by Hamish Henderson talk in very general terms about Scottish balladry but tell us nothing specific about these two remarkable recordings. In addition, neither singer names the male protagonist of their respective fragments (so we get no clue about the validity of the 'Tamberlaine' form of the name). One thing that does strike me, though, is that these recordings are from ORAL tradition. I have heard it said that 'Tam Lin' is only known from print - these two recordings suggest that this view is mistaken.

Second, there is a recording of Bert singing his version available on CD. The recording in question is 'Classic A.L.Lloyd' (Fellside FECD98, 1994). This is a live recording made at a Runcorn folk club in 1972. Bert can be heard introducing the ballad as "Tam Lin or Young Tambling". The protagonist's name doesn't occur until some verses into the ballad when Bert sings 'Tambling' ("She hadn't pulled a herb, a herb, a herb but barely one, when up then spoke the Young Tambling says, Margaret leave it alone..."). In the next verse I'm sure that I can hear another syllable ("Come tell me now, Young Tam-BER-lin(g?) she said, if a mortal man you be ...").
In my memory of the occasion at which I first heard him sing the ballad, in Peterborough, 4 or 5 years earlier than the Runcorn performance, I'm convinced that he used the 3 syllable form (and the last syllable was closer to 'lane'/'laine' than 'lin'/'ling'.

So, I think that the simple explanation is that Bert often used a 3-syllable version of the name because it scanned better when used in the Traveller derived tune; the similarity to the name of a medieval Tartar conqueror is just an unfortunate coincidence.

Finally (and I've gone on far too long already!), Child's G version uses a 3-syllable name, ie. 'Tam-a-line' and his H and I versions use the forms 'Tam Lane' and 'Tamlane' respectively.


07 Sep 07 - 03:12 PM (#2143465)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Tommy

It could be, of course, that Bert was wrong.


07 Sep 07 - 03:16 PM (#2143466)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Crazy_Man_Michael

"Fornication with fairies? Diane Easby hasn't a clue!"

Tis you, Master Billy who doesn't have a clue...reading the lyrics is generally a very good idea...oh and take you brain out of neutral before putting your mouth in gear *LOL*

Sorry Joe, couldn't resist... :-D

....anyway...has anyone had a look at this website on Tam Lin?

Tam Lin Balladry


07 Sep 07 - 03:31 PM (#2143473)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Crazy_Man_ Michael

A novelisation of the Tam Lin myth is An Earthly Knight by Janet Mcnaughton. It's set in 12th century in the border areas of Scotland.

An Earthly Knight


07 Sep 07 - 03:56 PM (#2143486)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Jim McLean

I clicked on Crazy Man Michaels' penultimate post 'Tam Lin Balladry' and found the version listed under Alastair McDonald was one I had written and arranged for an LP sung by Alastair McDonald which I had produced and arranged in 1970 for Young Blood Records. I have just played it again and am still impressed by Alasdair McDonald's performance.


07 Sep 07 - 04:41 PM (#2143511)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Crazy_Man_Michael

and a very fine translation of the song it is too, Jim...I just finished reading it


07 Sep 07 - 05:09 PM (#2143538)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Lighter

Heh. From the liner notes to Oscar Brand's "Bawdy Songs and Backroom Ballads Vol. 4" (Audio Fidelity AFLP 1847), ca.1957: "'Tom Bolynn' - A very ancient song, this has been found by Oscar Brand in half a dozen versions in many countries. It is apparently based on the exploits of one Tam Lynn, legendary king of the fairies and a hero of the sexual world."

Got that? And Anne Boleyn's father was named "Tom" too. If Tamburlaine, Tom Boleyn, Tom Bolynn, Tommy Linn, Tambling, Tam Lin, and Russ and Amber Tamblyn all played the tambourine, that would cinch it for me.

Lloyd's book makes no mention of any of these people or songs.

Why the cover-up?


07 Sep 07 - 05:17 PM (#2143543)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Crazy_Man_Michael

I see the court jester is in.... from the court of the Queen of Faery mayhap? *LOL*


07 Sep 07 - 05:26 PM (#2143548)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Shimrod

"It could be, of course, that Bert was wrong."

What?? I don't think that I can be bothered to respond to that!

"Lloyd's book makes no mention of any of these people or songs."

That's probably because 'Lloyd's book' is called, 'Folk Song in England' ... and 'Tam Lin' is a Scottish ballad ... doohhh!!!


07 Sep 07 - 05:59 PM (#2143564)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Cstargazy

Oh dear, I didn't mean to suggest the book would contain any answers to my query;just that the mention of Bert Lloyd reminded me that my copy of his big book was missing....


08 Sep 07 - 04:54 AM (#2143804)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Dave Sutherland

Tam Lin is a Border ballad - please allow us from those parts some ownership of such a magnificent tale. Actually Lloyd does mention Tam Lin in "Folksong in England" in The Big Ballads section(he spells it Tam Lin too) but only refers to the story and does not publish any of the text. However in "Journeyman" MacColl gives a few pages over to the balled and also publishes a full version of the ballad which is pretty much the variant that I know. I have heard both MacColl and Lloyd sing versions of "Tam Lin" live but the first person I ever heard sing it was Paddy Tunney.


08 Sep 07 - 06:40 AM (#2143848)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Shimrod

Wish I'd heard Paddy Tunney sing 'Tam Lin'! I assume that it was a Scottish/Border version? It would be very interesting to find that there are Irish versions of this ballad ... ?


08 Sep 07 - 07:01 AM (#2143859)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: The Borchester Echo

Irish versions of this ballad

There is this one, The Fairie Queen's Reply by Jennifer Lawrence, from the parodies section of the site linked to above: http://www.tam-lin.org/oddities1.html#rebuttal


08 Sep 07 - 07:14 AM (#2143863)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Geoff the Duck

Diane - I wouldn't take much notice of Guest, oh I can't even be bothered to look back to see who!
Let's face it. If anyone knows all about not fornicating with fairies, it's a troll. Fairies have got more sense than.
Quack!
GtD.


08 Sep 07 - 11:08 AM (#2143958)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: GUEST,Crazy_Man_Michael

there are a number of "guests" here. I could log in but am on the run this morning...and yes...there are a fair number of trolls are there not....?


08 Sep 07 - 12:49 PM (#2144011)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Art Thieme

Run the fag up the pole and see who salutes. ;-)

Just a JOKE-----really! -- (Art)


08 Sep 07 - 05:46 PM (#2144205)
Subject: RE: Origins: Tam Lin and Tamberlaine
From: Lighter

DaveS, I have found Lloyd's mentions of "Tam Lin" in his "Big Ballads" chapter.

For some reason, though, none of the book's three indices notice them.

Why the cover-up? Did someone have to be...propitiated?