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BS: Killing Saddam

Stu 27 Dec 06 - 04:59 AM
catspaw49 27 Dec 06 - 05:21 AM
eddie1 27 Dec 06 - 05:25 AM
kendall 27 Dec 06 - 09:25 AM
GUEST 27 Dec 06 - 10:20 AM
GUEST 27 Dec 06 - 10:24 AM
Bill D 27 Dec 06 - 11:00 AM
Amos 27 Dec 06 - 11:10 AM
Wolfgang 27 Dec 06 - 11:42 AM
GUEST,Cruz 27 Dec 06 - 11:47 AM
Bert 27 Dec 06 - 12:47 PM
Ebbie 27 Dec 06 - 01:00 PM
Bert 27 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM
Ron Davies 27 Dec 06 - 01:41 PM
ard mhacha 27 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM
Don Firth 27 Dec 06 - 02:38 PM
Peace 27 Dec 06 - 02:59 PM
Bert 27 Dec 06 - 03:09 PM
GUEST 27 Dec 06 - 04:14 PM
GUEST 27 Dec 06 - 04:23 PM
Barry Finn 27 Dec 06 - 04:24 PM
John O'L 27 Dec 06 - 06:22 PM
Bobert 27 Dec 06 - 06:36 PM
GUEST 27 Dec 06 - 06:57 PM
GUEST 27 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM
Greg B 27 Dec 06 - 07:07 PM
Uncle_DaveO 27 Dec 06 - 07:34 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 Dec 06 - 11:34 PM
Barry Finn 27 Dec 06 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,Texas Guest 28 Dec 06 - 12:02 AM
Barry Finn 28 Dec 06 - 12:15 AM
Peace 28 Dec 06 - 12:16 AM
Slag 28 Dec 06 - 02:05 AM
Stu 28 Dec 06 - 05:10 AM
Hrothgar 28 Dec 06 - 06:10 AM
Duke 28 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM
Bobert 28 Dec 06 - 09:43 AM
EBarnacle 28 Dec 06 - 09:45 AM
beardedbruce 28 Dec 06 - 11:34 AM
Bill D 28 Dec 06 - 12:28 PM
Slag 28 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 28 Dec 06 - 01:32 PM
Slag 28 Dec 06 - 01:43 PM
Bill D 28 Dec 06 - 05:25 PM
Slag 28 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM
Bobert 28 Dec 06 - 06:50 PM
Peace 28 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM
fumblefingers 28 Dec 06 - 07:09 PM
Peace 28 Dec 06 - 08:02 PM
Uncle_DaveO 28 Dec 06 - 09:45 PM
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Subject: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Stu
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 04:59 AM

Any time now.

What does killing him acheive?


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: catspaw49
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 05:21 AM

Revenge. We're very big on revenge.

Pity we all can't seem to see the need for revenge against Bush.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: eddie1
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 05:25 AM

When Saddam gets hung, anyone who wants one will have a martyr. If Bush was hung would anyone want him for a martyr?
Seems to me hanging Bush would cause a lot less trouble!

Eddie


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: kendall
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 09:25 AM

I'm still against the death penalty. NO ONE has the right to take another's life. And killing Saddam will surely make him a martyr.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:20 AM

Hang them both together locked in a love embrace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 10:24 AM

Perhaps they should just slit his throat like the Sunni muslims do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Bill D
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:00 AM

don't hang him....turn him loose on the street in a Shite neighborhood, and let him explain how his regime wasn't really so bad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Amos
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:10 AM

The only possible advantage would be removing him from the gene pool. But it will also institutionalize the death penalty and establsih a long enduring hatred for the Iraq government by those who supported Saddam. Not a good trade, eh?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Wolfgang
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:42 AM

Keeping him locked away for life will even more turn him into a martyr.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: GUEST,Cruz
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:47 AM

I am for capital punishment.

All war criminals should be hung by the neck until dead...including our own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Bert
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 12:47 PM

If you REALLY want to punish him lock him away in a cell with Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 01:00 PM

ha. Which do you think would convert the other, Bert?


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Bert
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 01:14 PM

They wouldn't need to convert each other, they are two of a kind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Ron Davies
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 01:41 PM

When he is executed, you may be surprised at the reaction from Sunnis. Not all Sunnis loved him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: ard mhacha
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 02:27 PM

I do not believe in the death penalty but if they are going ahead with it, hang the two thieves on either side Blair and Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 02:38 PM

Hang Saddam between two thieves? Now that would be kind of symbolic, but I'm not quite sure what to make of it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Peace
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 02:59 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Bert
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 03:09 PM

A pithy comment there Peace!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 04:14 PM

killing saddam will lead to more deaths. Life imprisonment wouldn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 04:23 PM

The Cat got a piece of Peace's piece.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 04:24 PM

Kill him? He shouldn't even be tried in this country. Did we sign on to be a part of any international court? No! Are we afraid if held in an international court our dirty laundry would be hung out to dry? The only ones who should be on trial here is this present administration, it's just more blood on they're hands. We had no right to invade Iraq, it was illegal & we therefore have no right to try anyone, it's just as illegal.   

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: John O'L
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:22 PM

When your son hits his brother you hit your son and say "That's to teach you not to hit people."

And then you sit back and wonder how your family got to be so dysfunctional


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:36 PM

The governemnt of Iraq that has appointed judges and overseen the trial of Saddam is completely and totaly bogus... Therefore, should Saddam be hanged then I would think that Bush should be hauled up on charges as an accomplice to murder..

(But who is going to hold Bush accountable, Bobert???)

Nevermind that one...

How many Iraqis did Saddam kill over what period of time??? Bush has killed upwards of 650,000 in 4 years so I'd say that if Saddam down get hanged then Bush might need to be hanged 3 or 4 times...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 06:57 PM

Would those all for hanging saddam be willing to publicly hang Bush with the worlds cameras trained on them and to be held accountable for evermore?


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM

YES!


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Greg B
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:07 PM

Then again, so long he is alive, there are those who'll kill in
order to try to free him.

The court is composed of Iraqis--- whether you regard the 'government'
as legitimate or not, the court is as legit as say, the World Court
in the Hague.

It is clear that he committed genocide.

What are we to do with people like that?

It seems to me that some people do things so heinous that they
give up their status as 'persons.' They align themselves with
such evil actions, that they abrogate the rules which normally
apply. Even, I'm afraid, from people like myself who generally
oppose the death penalty.

Add to that that such a penalty is very culturally apropos in
that part of the world--- and I'm afraid I have to say 'hang
the bastard, and do it soon.'


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 07:34 PM

Bobert told us:

The governemnt of Iraq that has appointed judges and overseen the trial of Saddam is completely and totaly bogus...

Thats your judgment, Bobert. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is your opinion. Quite a number of other countries have recognized it, and it has sovereign rights. If you complain that it's based on violence imposed, without much if any say by the populace to be governed, I would point out that far and away most governments in the history of the world can be so described.

Therefore, should Saddam be hanged then I would think that Bush should be hauled up on charges as an accomplice to murder..

Different situation altogether. First, hanging him is not murder, since it is to be done under the sanction of the recognized government. "Murder" is a crime under conditions defined by a sovereign government, and I feel confident in stating that never in the history of the world has a sovereign government defined a crime of murder so as to outlaw the working of its own laws and authority. And while Bush (for whom I hold no brief) undoubtedly has/had influence with that government, his position is remote enough that "accomplice to murder" could not apply even if the laws and legal process of Iraq could be said to define themselves and their own actions as murder.

---
Someone said something to the effect that the only purpose hanging Saddam could serve would be for revenge. Though I think that's wrong, I'll grant that just for the purpose of argument, and point out that, while many in our culture deprecate revenge as a motivation, revenge is a very powerful and living part of Arab culture, and could be seen in that culture as a perfectly valid reason for putting him to death. (And by many, many in our own culture, too!)

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:34 PM

Thats your judgment, Bobert. You are entitled to your opinion, but it is your opinion. Quite a number of other countries have recognized it, and it has sovereign rights.

Maybe so, Dave O, but a lot of other people and nations are appalled at the wholesale fraud that Bush has perpetrated on the world with his assault on Iraq. In the world, I think YOUR opinion is in the minority. Instead of pulling off what he thinks is a macho trick of hanging Saddam after a "fair trial," with that act of revenge Bush is going to torque this war up to the next level. I guarantee it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Barry Finn
Date: 27 Dec 06 - 11:51 PM

Let those that he commited crimes against try him & let them cast the first stone. That is their way. Let us try our own here or hand over the bunch to an legal international court & let the world try them all & let the world deal with their fate.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: GUEST,Texas Guest
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:02 AM

The thing I find most interesting about Saddam's impending death is not only that it is coming SO QUICK, but that it is coming AT ALL.
How many times over the last thirty years or more have you read about some sadistic bastard running a country somewhere in the world and killing/raping/murdering people left and right while he is in power, only to be overthrown, tried, found guilty and sent into exile - never to be punished for his crimes? So why is Saddam being killed
instead of exiled to a foreign land? Also, why is he being put to death so quickly? That's a question I would like to have answered
by the most inept man who ever lived in the White House. Interesting,
but maybe it's because - dead men don't talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Barry Finn
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:15 AM

You're right there Texas Guest & they don't walk either. Once they're gone the chapter of the book closes too. From where I sit that is the most scary thing for those that have blood on their hands now. The blood never washes away so the sooner the book closes the safer they'll all feel. No one will ever ask who in this country had a hand in dealing out death, that is at least no one that'll get an answer.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:16 AM

Halabja. May his soul rot in Hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Slag
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 02:05 AM

Well, the Iraqis could hang him and at this point that seems to be what is going to happen. I hope he accepts Jesus as his Savior before that occurs.

It really seems such a waste though. No one else in the world has exhibted Saddam's amazing ability to control Iraq, let alone make a real political force of it. Why not re-instate him to power? Why, he'll have that country whipped ointo shape in no time at all.

If only Hitler had caring people around him in his day instead of so much unwarranted hostility. As a Socialist leader he had really taken Germany from the depths of dispair to new heights, healed the economy and helped his people to hold their heads up proudly. Instead that beast FDR and his band of warmongers (Winnie Churchill and Joe Stalin) drove the poor man to suicide. Its just as well, I guess. They would have hung him too. I mean they hung so many of his hench-, er I mean aides and confidants.

Gee, they should have taken Roosevelt and THAT crew and tied them all up in a big loving embrace and hung the whole lot of them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Stu
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 05:10 AM

"What are we to do with people like that?"

Well, we don't sink to their level for a start, so we don't go around killing people (even though our governments seem happy to).


"First, hanging him is not murder, since it is to be done under the sanction of the recognized government."

An old argument that doesn't hold water - you are arguing semantics here. This is judicial murder aided and abetted by the US and it's allies. Killing people "under the sanction of the recognized government" legitimises all sorts of state murder all over the world - from the mass murder of criminals and dissidents in modern China to the atrocities of the Nazis. Saddams own government was a 'recognised government' - it just wasn't voted into power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Hrothgar
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:10 AM

I'm still against the death penalty, even for someone like Saddam.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Duke
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 08:06 AM

Kill him, don't kill him. Hate Bush, don't hate Bush. None of this matters. These people are going to keep on killing each other forever because that's what they do. As for Bush, don't worry about him, worry about who the next president will be. Bush has only a short time left and the next guy will have at least four years to do what he wants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 09:43 AM

Well, one thing is for sure... We now see why Bush didn't wnat to sign on to the World Court...


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: EBarnacle
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 09:45 AM

I have been considering this issue lately. Even though I generally oppose the death penalty, I have come to believe that the only people who should be eligible are those who have overseen mass murder.

That means heads of state who start wars or murder their own people or passively allow their followers "to do it on their own." These people are condoning major offenses.

Killing some slob who believes that he will go to heaven as part of a jihad is not punishment. It is giving him [and they are mostly male] what he wants. If we cannot reasonably turn him off, how can we kill other individuals at this level? On the other hand, killing the megalomaniacal monster who sent him or them is entirely another story, whether or not there is direct blood on his hands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 11:34 AM

Thank you, Peace.

Bobert, if you insist on throwing out numbers that have already been proven false, you weaken the rest of what you say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:28 PM

*sitting here, mezmerized at Slag's post above.....wondering how any one could cram so many ridiculous, prejudiced, asinine thoughts into one paragraph*

......just the 'idea' of Saddam "accepting Jesus as his savior" boggles the mind, not to mention the sly praise of Hitler.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Slag
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 12:41 PM

Thank you Bill D. Not everyone appreciates the T'eatre de Absurd. Some day you may learn what satire, irony and sardonicism have in common. To know me is to love me!


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:32 PM

Greg B, if it is clear that he committed genocide, why not hang him for that crime, if you must hang him at all? For my money he is innocent of genocide until proved guilty in a credible judicial process. So far no court, credible or otherwise, has found him guilty of genocide.

Dave O, two internationally respected human-rights organisations were given accreditation to observe the court proceedings against Saddam,and to interview witnesses, advocates etc. No doubt this was thought prudent in view of a tendency around the world to see the court as an instrument of US foreign policy.

If you would like to read the report that came out of all that scrutiny, here's a link: The Dujail Trial.

I suggest you do read it, then come back here and have another stab at responding to Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Slag
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 01:43 PM

That's a very interesting report. I just wonder if it is the same and consistant standard which applied during Saddam's regime? Is this the Iraqi cultural standard for justice? And if it is, have we made a difference in Iraq? Maybe this proves that we HAVEN"T interfered with Iraq's ability to govern themselves (just a thought).


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 05:25 PM

Slag...it's never too late to learn that " satire, irony and sardonicism" don't translate well in out-of-context print. *IF* that's all you were doing, you need to practice your delivery. We have had many similar posts that were dead serious.

That sort of attempt got a senator from Virginia in trouble, and lost him his re-election.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Slag
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 05:57 PM

The little bit of truth, or at least the hint, is the sauce, the sting. I'm not running for office. And dead serious is still dead. Lighten up a little and you'll live longer, if that's what you want to do.

If Saddam had followed that advice he might still be in power and ruler of a happier country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 06:50 PM

Yo, BB...

No, the number of deaths in Iraq has ****not**** been "proven false"... Yeah, you may wish to believe your so-called experts but to say that the Johns Hopkins findings have been "proven false" is nothing more that ****your**** opinion and nuthin' else...

There are very well qulaified folks involved in standing by this number that have more education than everyone here in Mudcat combined...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 07:05 PM

'I-Casualties has also started tracking Iraqi civilian and military deaths, relying largely on media reports since the US government says it keeps no record of civilian casualties.

"The counting of civilians is the harder job and in many ways the more strategically fraught task," said Michael O'Hanlon, senior fellow at Brookings.

I-Casualties gives no overall figure for Iraqi casualties and the site says the daily deaths it publishes are only a baseline, noting that actual numbers are higher.

The widely varying published totals by other groups are controversial since they are seen as an index of coalition failure to bring peace to Iraq.

At the separate "Iraq Body Count" website, which relies on media reports, civilian deaths are reported as ranging from a minimum of 51,897 up to 57,452 as of Wednesday.'

from here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: fumblefingers
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 07:09 PM

He will hang, according to Iraqi law. Good.

It's intesting to hear so many versions of ad hoc law, moral equivilence,etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 08:02 PM

"He will hang, according to Iraqi law."

Actually, he will hang according to Newton's Law.


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Subject: RE: BS: Killing Saddam
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 28 Dec 06 - 09:45 PM

I think it is worth observing that Saddam was tried under Iraqi procedures, for Iraqi, not international, crimes. Iraqi law provides for the possibility of the death penalty. The court chose to impose that penalty, upheld by the appropriate appellate body.

That's not "murder". You may disapprove of the verdict, or disapprove of the sentence, or the finding on appeal, but "murder", no. The word "murder" has a meaning in law, and it's not just an imposed death of which you disapprove.

No, that's not semantics. It's definition.

Dave Oesterreich


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