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BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI

Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 06 - 08:32 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 06 - 08:26 AM
Teribus 16 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM
Divis Sweeney 16 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 06 - 07:56 AM
Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland 16 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM
Divis Sweeney 16 Dec 06 - 07:47 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 06 - 07:41 AM
Teribus 16 Dec 06 - 07:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 16 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM
Divis Sweeney 16 Dec 06 - 06:37 AM
GUEST 16 Dec 06 - 06:15 AM
Teribus 16 Dec 06 - 04:27 AM
Big Al Whittle 16 Dec 06 - 04:12 AM
GUEST,Brackagh Moss 16 Dec 06 - 02:56 AM
Teribus 15 Dec 06 - 09:18 PM
Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland 15 Dec 06 - 04:58 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 06 - 04:49 PM
Dave the Gnome 15 Dec 06 - 04:40 PM
ard mhacha 15 Dec 06 - 04:32 PM
Divis Sweeney 15 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM
Den 15 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM
Den 15 Dec 06 - 03:52 PM
Den 15 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 06 - 03:41 PM
Den 15 Dec 06 - 03:27 PM
Teribus 15 Dec 06 - 03:23 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 06 - 03:00 PM
Den 15 Dec 06 - 02:55 PM
Teribus 15 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 15 Dec 06 - 02:40 PM
Den 15 Dec 06 - 02:40 PM
John MacKenzie 15 Dec 06 - 01:16 PM
Big Mick 15 Dec 06 - 01:12 PM
Big Mick 15 Dec 06 - 01:08 PM
Divis Sweeney 15 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM
John MacKenzie 15 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM
Snuffy 15 Dec 06 - 12:29 PM
Divis Sweeney 15 Dec 06 - 12:23 PM
Big Mick 15 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM
Big Mick 15 Dec 06 - 11:29 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 15 Dec 06 - 11:19 AM
Den 15 Dec 06 - 10:52 AM
Paco Rabanne 15 Dec 06 - 10:47 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 15 Dec 06 - 10:45 AM
Den 15 Dec 06 - 10:33 AM
Big Al Whittle 15 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM
GUEST 15 Dec 06 - 07:40 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:32 AM

Kathleen's family did know that IRA killed her.
They were prevented from speaking out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:26 AM

But can you give ONE EXAMPLE of me lying in my years of posting to this site?
No.
I have several more examples of yours if any of your pm palls would like them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM

Not wishing to invoke norms of civilized behaviour Divis, but I do believe I asked my question first.

Not only did you not provide us with an answer, you sidestep the issue with a brief reference to the PIRA's latest lie and ask a question of your own - which I now apparently MUST answer before you respond to my original question. You don't get off the hook so lightly - tell us about Jean McConville.

He won't of course - I will make a prediction to everyone on this forum - No PIRA apologist will ever tell you anything about Jean McConville, no PIRA apologist will ever tell you anything about Kathleen Feeney.

One question for you Divis do you, or any of your PIRA buddies chat to Kathleen's parents, you might well have done up until 2005, when the truth about Kathleen's death eventually came out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 08:07 AM

Sorry Keith, a lot of members through pm's have pointed out the you couldn't lie straight in bed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:56 AM

Unless those Republican websites are wrong, you did lie then Sweeney.
And the army did not apologize. You did lie about that.
We are in a new era now. The war is over.
You do not need to lie anymore.
You will feel better for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:51 AM

Soldier
(Harvey Andrews)
In a station in the city a British soldier stood
Talking to the people there if the people would
Some just stared in hatred, and others turned in pain
And the lonely British soldier wished he was back home again

Come join the British Army! said the posters in his town
See the world and have your fun come serve before the Crown
The jobs were hard to come by and he could not face the dole
So he took his country's shilling and enlisted on the roll

For there was no fear of fighting, the Empire long was lost
Just ten years in the army getting paid for being bossed
Then leave a man experienced a man who's made the grade
A medal and a pension some mem'ries and a trade

Then came the call for Ireland as the call had come before
Another bloody chapter in an endless civil war
The priests they stood on both sides the priests they stood behind
Another fight in Jesus's name the blind against the blind

The soldier stood between them between the whistling stones
And then the broken bottles that led to broken bonmes
The petrol bombs that burnt his hands the nails that pierced his skin
And wished that he had stayed at home surrounded by his kin

The station filled with people the soldier soon was bored
But better in the station than where the people warred
The room filled up with mothers with daughters and with sons
Who stared with itchy fingers at the soldier and his gun

A yell of fear a screech of brakes the shattering of glass
The window of the station broke to let the package pass
A scream came from the mothers as they ran towards the door
Dragging their children crying from the bomb upon the floor

The soldier stood and could not move his gun he could not use
He knew the bomb had seconds and not minutes on the fuse
He could not run and pick it up and throw it in the street
There were far too many people there too many running feet

Take cover! yelled the soldier, Take cover for your lives
And the Irishmen threw down their young and stood before their wives
They turned towards the soldier their eyes alive with fear
For God's sake save our children or they'll end their short lives here

The soldier moved towards the bomb his stomach like a stone
Why was this his battle God why was he alone
He lay down on the package and he murmured one farewell
To those at home in England to those he loved so well

He saw the sights of summer felt the wind upon his brow
The young girls in the city parks how precious were they now
The soaring of the swallow the beauty of the swan
The music of the turning world so soon would it be gone

A muffled soft explosion and the room began to quake
The soldier blown across the floor his blood a crimson lake
There was no time to cry or shout there was no time to moan
And they turned their children's faces from the blood and from the bones

The crowd outside soon gathered and the ambulances came
To carry off the body of a pawn lost in the game
And the crowd they clapped and cheered and they sang their rebel song
One soldier less to interfere where he did not belong

And will the children growing up learn at their mothers' knees
The story of the soldier who bought their liberty
Who used his youthful body as a means towards an end
Who gave his life to those who called him murderer not friend



Susanne´s Folksong-Notizen
[1972:] If you can con an ordinary man into protecting your interests, he gets done when the crisis comes, not you. Many soldiers are not professional killers, they're kids who couldn't get a job, and as unemployment has soared, recruiting for the army has increased by over 60% in three years. The average soldier is unimportant in the final analysis, it's the ones who shelter behind him that count [...] and they always seem to survive! (Notes Harvey Andrews, 'Writer of Songs')

[1973:] Written from newspaper clippings. (Forces Folk 11/73, p 10)

[1975:] Hugh [Fraser] has a friend, an officer in the Brigade of Guards, just back from a tour of duty in Northern Ireland. While they were there forty of his men bought themselves out of the Army, as their wives would not have them being shot at in Ireland. Meanwhile, partly because of the boom, but partly because of Ireland, the recruiting figure for April this year was half the number for April 1972. (Cecil King, Diary 1970-1974, July 3rd, 1973, p 297)

[1979:] His next major song, however, inadvertently created a controversy which, for a while, clearly damaged Andrews' standing and viability. 'Soldier', in spite of an unambiguous sleevenote, was widely interpreted as a pro-establishment glorification of military heroism and, therefore, by left-wing logical extension, of authoritarian violence; whereas in fact it was a simple (if lyrically somewhat overwritten) story of a young man caught in an impossible situation. The song was neither for the British authorities nor against the Irish rebels; it was about the senselessness of violence, applied on a personal level. [...] Harvey Andrews' Belfast song ('Soldier') was not a lasting success (though it remains popular, for obvious reasons, with army audiences in Ulster and Germany). (Woods, Revival 115f)

[1990:] In Northern Ireland, this song written in 1972 by a professional songwriter, Harvey Andrews, has become very widely known among soldiers, and at the same time divorced in classic folk-song style from its author. (Palmer, Lovely War 18)

In 1971 in Belfast a soldier called Sergeant Willis cleared a room of civilians because of a bomb. As he went to close the door afterwards, the charge exploded, and he was killed. [...] Harvey Andrews, was so struck by the incident that he wrote the song to make the point that soldiers, too, are human. (The incident of the soldier's embracing the bomb was poetic licence.) Broadcasts of Andrews' record were banned for some time by the BBC lest feelings be exacerbated in the nationalist community of Northern Ireland. The Ministry of Defence advised (and still advises) soldiers not to sing the song in pubs where it might cause trouble. Some have interpreted this as a ban. Nevertheless, they sing it 'all the time', according to one source, on military transport and in messes and canteens. It has been said that some units require newcomers to learn to sing or recite the song before they become fully accepted. Andrews' authorship is not widely known, and many different stories about the song's origin circulate. [...]

The text has appeared in the 'Soldier', the 'Methodist' magazine, and the 'Manchester Evening News' (where in 1988 it won a poetry competition for a youth who sent it in over his own name). (Palmer, Lovely War 199)

[1997:] Someone told me my song was banned in the army, so I thought the ones to know would be the Ministry of Defence, and asked them. [...] They even had it in their files that the song was 'written by Harvey Andrews, who'd been in 2nd Para'. I never was in the army in my life! (Harvey Andrews, pr. comm.)

See also http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=28801

So much for being the opperssers.
I mean they are only doing a job.
however you just convince some people

I just hope peace in Northern Ireland and the two sides get together and try and work something out for both sides.

or listen to 1999 or there were roses by Tommy Sands.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:47 AM

You would need to ask your army Keith about why they killed her a a lot of other children. Why not send them an email ?

Why ask me what I think, because in your view I am a lair.

Ah Forensic Keith, now isn't that a great subject to look at presently over here. It was also forensic that saw several Irish men and women put in English jails for life sentences before the government accepted they were wrong to do so. So don't come the forensic line with me Keith.

Regarding McConville, did you not read my post to Teribus ? within it is the reply to your question.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:41 AM

That link again


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:40 AM

Truly a tragic story Divis, but as you point out, the soldier was charged, I note the charge was manslaughter, which indicates that those prosecuting the case could not prove any intent on the part of the accused, he was tried and found not guilty. That is called due process of law.

I notice that you didn't mention Jean McConville in your post Divis.

As you don't seem to want to mention her, tell us all about Kathleen Feeney.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 07:34 AM

That is a tragic story Sweeney.
Do you believe it was a random killing of a child by a soldier?
Why would he do that?
Perhaps it was true that it was a terrible mistake.
Sweeney, when I brought up Jean McConville, (Link in my previous post) your answer then was to bring up another killing. (scroll down from my link)
You said the army shot an innocent young man and later apologized for it.
Most of what you said then was a lie.
He had tried to kill the soldiers with a bomb. Forensic tests found explosive reidues on him. He had served a sentence for posession of explosives. He is listed on Republican websites as having died fighting for Ireland.

Will you share your local knowledge of Jean McConville with us now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:37 AM

Rubber/Plastic bullet victims Teribus, anything to tell me ?

I clearly remember cutting short my holiday in Achill Island and coming home on a hot August afternoon in 1976 to see a child laid out in her coffin. 12-year-old Majella O'Hare was a schoolgirl who was shot in the back by a soldier.

Her mum Mary O'Hare stood up when I walked in and asked me, "why would they kill my child" ? Her daughter was killed as she walked past an Army patrol.

Majella, from Whitecross, was on her way with other children to confession at a nearby church when she was hit in the back by a bullet fired by a paratrooper.


Her daddy Jimmy, who was working nearby, ran up the road and found Majella lying on the ground, blood pouring from her left side.
He cradled her in his arms until a local nurse arrived.
Majella lifted her hand up to her father's chest and said faintly, 'Daddy, Daddy'. Within seconds she was dead.

I spoke with Jimmy O'Hare a few days before he died 16 years later and all he talked about was Majella. The man never lived a days peace since the bastard shot her.

A 24-year-old paratrooper was charged with manslaughter.

He was acquitted when the trial judge accepted his claim to have shouted a warning before firing at a gunman he spotted in a hedge.

The Army's version of events had been widely disputed and the court verdict provoked controversy.

Soldiers at first claimed Majella was killed in crossfire, but local people insisted only one shot was fired, that no warning was issued and no other witnesses saw a gunman.

At the trial, Mary came face-to-face with the man she believes shot her daughter.

She shouted over to him 'Are you proud of what you did? Are you proud of killing Majella?'. He just shrugged his shoulders, smirked and said nothing."

In the 30 years the British authorities have never apologised for the death of the 12-year-old. The Army has never spoken directly to the family.

Teribus Mary is 83 now, would you like to talk to her ? I could pm you her phone number.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 06:15 AM

There is a reason for that isn't there boys, so just for the sake of clarity I'll ask Den/Divis/Ard/Big Mick again - tell us about Jean McConville? - They won't because to do so would put them in the position of disobeying orders.

Although I agree with a lot of what you say - I think including a plastic paddy who has never set foot in Ireland attributes some misplaced kudos where it doesn't exist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 04:27 AM

Please note - yet another PIRA supporter who has avoided the subject of Jean McConville.

Also note that in one post Divis referred to her as "the informer" Jean McConville - this being the latest PIRA lie regarding this poor woman. Here is what the Ombudsman Nuala O'Loan said with regard to this PIRA claim in July of this year:

Mrs O'Loan said it was not her normal role to confirm or deny the identity of people working as agents for the security services. "However, this situation is unique. Jean McConville left an orphaned family, the youngest of whom were six-year-old boys. The family have suffered extensively over the years, as we all know, and that suffering has only been made worse by allegations that their mother was an informant. As part of our investigation we have looked very extensively at all the intelligence available at the time. There is no evidence that Mrs McConville gave information to the police, the military or the security services".

Also a little insight into what Divis and his neighbours are like, or at least what they were like around Christmas 1972. On the 12th of December Jean McConville was taking a bath when four female and eight male members of the PIRA dragged this woman screaming from her house in full view of her children. They never saw her alive again. Christmas, remember, all this woman's neighbours, maybe even Divis himself among them, turned their backs on these orphaned children. Without help and support Helen, the eldest, a girl of fourteen attempted to look after her brothers and sisters and keep the family together for four months. Finally social services came in and the family was split up amongst foster homes. Merry Christmas indeed - these are the people that Den/Divis/Ard/Big Mick are so proud of.

Must be getting quite crowded down in that little 20ft Container.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 04:12 AM

If he speaks the language of the oppressor, you seem to have mastered the dialect of the shit stirer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST,Brackagh Moss
Date: 16 Dec 06 - 02:56 AM

Teribus... One thing you keep blocking in that Empirical brain of yours: Your presence in our country has brought the best and the worst out in our, under normal circumstances, very hospitable and friendly people.
We speak the language of resistance

You speak the language of the oppressor.

By invading countries, you bring the backlash down upon yourselves. Remember that the July 7th bombings in London were carried out by a bunch of kids who were well under your radar.
Well, The Provisional IRA slapped manners on you good and proper, Teribus, and kicked your asses to the negotiating table.
Fait a complit, old mukker.

Let's hope you you are all able to persuade the Syrians and the Iranians (the Axis of Evil, remember) to sort Iraq out for you, because all the crying 'foul' that you keep on doing, every time you get kicked in the bollocks (like July 7th) is directly proportional
to the amount of grief you have already brought to the offended party.

Now its time to get the send the rest of your ilk, back out Belfast Lough; the way they came in.
Law-keepers, Peace-keepers, Army of Occupation... whatever are not to be compared with the rest of the population. Apples with Oranges, Teribus. Wrong criteria (why can't you ever stick to the point?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 09:18 PM

"these people can't let everone else enjoy Christmas" That's right Tom, it was just about this time 34 years ago, that having tortured 5ft tall mother of 10 Jean McConville (Chopped her fingers off during interrogation) that the PIRA shot her.

There was a specific reason I asked Den/Divis/Ard/Big Mick to tell everybody on this forum about Jean McConville.

I also hope that all who have read this thread have noted that they all fought shy of telling us.

There is a reason for that isn't there boys, so just for the sake of clarity I'll ask Den/Divis/Ard/Big Mick again - tell us about Jean McConville? - They won't because to do so would put them in the position of disobeying orders.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Tom Hamilton frae Saltcoats Scotland
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:58 PM

these people can't let everone else enjoy Christmas

peace and goodwill to all men/women.

Love and God bless

Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:49 PM

So the NI people acted worse and commited more crimes than the 'scum of the earth'army.

At least that fact is indisputable thanks to this thread. No wonder they needed policing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:40 PM

Yes, makin' mock o' uniforms that guard you while you sleep
Is cheaper than them uniforms, an' they're starvation cheap;
An' hustlin' drunken soldiers when they're goin' large a bit
Is five times better business than paradin' in full kit.

Then it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy how's yer soul?"
But it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll,
The drums begin to roll, my boys, the drums begin to roll,
O it's "Thin red line of 'eroes" when the drums begin to roll.

We aren't no thin red 'eroes, nor we aren't no blackguards too,
But single men in barricks, most remarkable like you;
An' if sometimes our conduck isn't all your fancy paints:
Why, single men in barricks don't grow into plaster saints;

While it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "Tommy, fall be'ind,"
But it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind,
There's trouble in the wind, my boys, there's trouble in the wind,
O it's "Please to walk in front, sir," when there's trouble in the wind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: ard mhacha
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:32 PM

Just came in to see the usual suspects clamping at the bit, what a load of rubbish they keep dishing out, listen lads, tell John Stalker,John Stevens and Judge Cory they are all wrong.
The Brits in denial, nothing strange there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 04:03 PM

Firstly Peter, I will address Guest posts in the manner they arrive, if they extract the urine, so will I. Problem with that ?

Teribus, Yes I will be glad to discuss the informer Jean McConville with you if you address the list of children killed by plastic bullets fired by British soldiers, is that fair enough ???????? No questions answered to anyone about this until he addresses this subject if it's names and figures he wishes to throw about.

Keith, nothing to address with you as nothing you said is new here.

I repeat I proudly honour the Volunteers of the Provisional Irish Republican Army and will do so until death.

I lost family and friends to the SLR's and car bombs of FARC/British military forces of occupation in my country, do you really expect me to say these British soldiers did a sterling job ?

Clearly some of you have a problem with my views and lack the ability to understand anyone elses viewpoint.

That is being very narrow minded. Would you not agree ?


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:56 PM

Actually folks that's it for me for now. I'm off out for B&B surprise for the weekend with my wife. Far away from the toils and strife of life and the Mudcat. Peace, Den.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:52 PM

So to preface your post Keith as long as there is a question mark at the end of a title then its not meant to be inflamatory. I'm just trying to get these rules all straight in my head. You see I didn't think this thread needed a question mark as the information was stated as fact from the Ministry of Defence.

Sorry Teribus 13 killed on Bloody sunday and John Johmston died 2 days later. I know what a stickler you are for detail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:47 PM

There were actually 14 people killed in Derry on Bloody Sunday Teribus John Johnston died of his wounds two days later but why split hairs eh they were just a bunch of Paddys. I'm not sure what you want me to do about Jean McConville. I don't think there is anything I can do that will make any difference to her family. As for the involvement of Mitchel McLaughlan in her disappearance maybe you know something I don't. If the people who murdered Jean McConville are found then the law should be applied and if you can't tell the difference between her murder and Government sanctioned murder then I think you are being deliberately obtuse. If you will reread one of my posts above I said that, "It is time for truth and reconciliation from all corners".


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:41 PM

Is that the best and only example Den?
That thread asked the QUESTION if PIRA was involved in that crime.
The thread title had a ? at the end.
It was the major news item of the day and even the Irish police, government and security forces were blaming PIRA.
And how long ago was that?
And how many of these debates have we had since?

Teribus, I have asked about Jean Mconville before and gave her story here.thread.cfm?threadid=88751#1668184


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:27 PM

Well let me see Keith didn't you start a thread about the Northern Bank raid a while back. What was that all about? How's that coming by the way? Got any more suspects or are you still blaming the provos. Number 2 I'm not currently nor ever have been a republican. I know what disingenous means and in this case it implied that I was being insincere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:23 PM

It's very nice to know Den that you, "believe that what happened to Jean McConville was very wrong."

But that is not what you/Ard/Divis/Big Mick were asked to do was it?

Tell us all about Jean McConville, explain to us why there is such a clamour for inquiries into the killing of 12 people in Derry in January 1972 (Bloody Sunday), the bombings of Dublin and Monaghan by the UVF in 1974 and the murder of Pat Finucane, yet there is no such clamour on the part of Sinn Fein and Mitchel McLaughlin for any inquiry or prosecution for the murder of Jean McConville.

Maybe Divis could tell us as she was once a neighbour of his. Maybe on of the guests at the dinner given in his honour actually took part, and could tell us far more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:03 PM

And Den,
You recognise a disingenuous post by its content, not by knowledge of its author.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 03:00 PM

Den,
You said,"so....anyone starting a thread in order to represent N. Ireland, nationalists or the IRA in a negative way is a poster"

Den, no one ever does start threads like that.
These arguments are all on threads started by Republicans.
Like this one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:55 PM

I believe that what happened to Jean McConville was very wrong. Why don't you start a thread about her so that other people will be informed. So they disbanded the B Specials which then became the Ulster Defence Regiment and if you'll pardon the expression same shit different pile.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Teribus
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:41 PM

Let's see, we've established that the average Brit Squaddie in Northern Ireland actually behaves better than the average local.

We've had Ard give us his usual "Scum of the Earth" rant.

We've had indignation from Divis and Den

We've had typical "Plastic Paddy" (as per Eric Bogle) pontification from Big Mick.

OK, Ard/Divis/Den/Big Mick tell all the people on this thread and in this forum all about Jean McConville.

By the bye, British forces in Northern Ireland were never deployed there as a "peacekeeping force", they were deployed to assist the civil power, and their first job was to disarm and disband the Ulster 'B' Specials. As such it should come as no great surprise to anybody, Big Mick, that they colluded with the RUC, which stands for Royal Ulster Constabulary, i.e. the police.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:40 PM

When I was in Belfast (1971-82) the behaviour of the British Army was not a pretty sight and was sometimes shameful. But what Ard and Co can't grasp is that this is not a "Brit" thing. We've surely seen enough evidence by now to know that any army, anywhere, is capable of losing its moral compass - in fact there's an institutional predisposition for this to happen in "active service" scenarios.

If there is one lesson to be learnt from the NI troubles it is that soldiers are not the right people to police civilian populations. It is interesting to note (as I expect Big Mick has noted) that the behaviour of the Brits in Iraq has been a good bit more intelligent and constructive, on the whole, than that of their Us counterparts. So perhaps something was indeed learnt in Belfast and south Armagh.

Wherever the balance lies between right ane wrong in NI, what completely pisses me off about Mudcat is the endless bitterness, as exemplified by this thoughtful little gem from Divis Sweeney: "So glad I am getting under your skin...." You'd get a better level of debate from schoolkids.

Oh, and whatFrench Resistance, Divis? At times it took fewer than 3,000 German troops to keep Occupied France under the Nazi cosh, and to keep exporting its Jews to the camps. Any resistance was largely a figment of Allied propaganda. The fact is that most of Europe, including a great many people in the UK,were only too happy to see the Jews get their come-uppance. The USA was not the only nation to turn away desperate Jewish refugees.

But I mustn't distract those of you who believe the axis of evil begins and ends in Britain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 02:40 PM

Bullshit Dave your fooling noone. I know exactly how you meant to use that word and don't try turning this around on me. I don't need to get a life as you suggest. I have a good one already.

Giok, so let me get this straight anyone starting a thread in order to represent N. Ireland, nationalists or the IRA in a negative way is a poster but anyone who starts a thread to acknowledge some of the dirty dealings of the British army is a troll. I started this thread to acknowledge that the Government had admitted to British soldiers acting outside the law in a pretty serious way. Robbery, rape, murder. They're pretty serious accusations. I see this as a start. There is plenty more to come I'm sure. The people in Derry have been waiting for over 30 years.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:16 PM

I was not defending anybody's action, but I was pointing out that it's easier to blame those you can see than those you can't. It is even possible that as a part of that guerilla warfare, that false information may have been laid in order to discredit those soldiers, in the same way as Divis assures us was done to his side.
All I'm saying is that this is a troll thread because it uses statistics, a notoriously unreliable weapon, to try and make a sectarian point.
I am not for or against anybody, and I refuse to take sides.

Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:12 PM

another cross post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:08 PM

Giok, with respect for our friendship, that is a load. That is easy to say when you have one of the largest, most well equipped armies in the world. Tell that to the Viet Cong, to the Sunni insurgents, indeed to the Colonial Army of the United States. I could go on and on. How about the Free French? I won't get into details because I didn't live in those streets. But to continue to defend the British Army and its activities in the North of Ireland smacks of denial. I don't suggest for a moment that the great majority of these soldiers were just young men trying to do their job in very difficult circumstances. Those that know about me know that I understand that very well. I don't deny that families had to face the horrible reality of losing a loved one in war. But to continue to deny the legitimate aspirations of a people to not live in a bigotted society, gerrymandered worse than any in history against political aspirations, with a set of laws that the creators of the Apartheid policy of South Africa borrowed but not in quite so restrictive a form, to deny that the British Army aided and abetted a terror and torture campaign, and even today tries to cover it up, is just ludicrous. Den will never convince me that he didn't start this with an agenda, but can you blame him? You didn't like the tactics of the IRA, how about the tactics of the groups that spawned their tactics? Do you think they did that just because? They did it because they were at a numerical disadvantage, they had centuries of history to understand that their oppressor wouldn't just go, and they were undergunned. I have heard many speak of the unwinability of the Iraq war, because the war is wrong, based on wrong principles. You are all ready to sack Blair because of it. What is so different between that and the struggle of the Irish to send your troops back across the water and let them be? A political solution is there, and thanks be that the players in Dublin and London have finally quit pandering to the beneficiaries of the gerrymandering and discrimination. But don't sit here and act as though these freedom fighters, with all their warts, were acting unreasonably against what they faced from the collusive efforts of their adversaries.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 01:01 PM

Ah hello, ever hear of Guerrilla warfare ? 28,000 British soldiers soldiers and 17,000 police (figures for mid seventies) odds were a little one sided, would you not agree ?

What about the French Resistance in 1940 ? Yes got it now, you feel they should have came out in ful kit and kicked hell out of Hilters army.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:40 PM

When your enemy only wears his uniform in secret, or at gravesides while wearing a balaclava, it must be a scary job trying to patrol an area. You are visible as you wear a uniform, and so can be held to account, the same is not true of the opposition.
Such comparisons as have been made previously are odious.

Giok


"Comparisons are odious."
-- John Fortescue de laudibus Legum Angliae (1471)


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Snuffy
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:29 PM

Does this not shock anyone or is it because the ones being robbed, raped and murdered were just a bunch of Paddys.

I'm sure British troops on the mainland have robbed, raped and murdered English, Scots and Welsh civilians too. (As has just about every army since time began). Does anyone know if the figures for Northern Ireland are better or worse than similar data for British forces in UK, Germany, Bosnia, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc? And how do the British figures compare with those for US forces at home and abroad? Or French, or Russian, etc etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:23 PM

Clearly some still can't accept if a "peace keeping force" walks the streets over here they should be setting an example.
Another couple of army bases will be closing down shortly, so we should see the situation improve.

Come on Keith, I saw a lack of British army discipline and behaviour at first hand many times on the streets of Ulster and you know it went on.

It was always the same old story when a new regiment came in to do their tour of duty.They got a list of names of locals into their heads and we couldn't have drove to the corner shop without getting the car ripped apart and asked the same silly questions over and over. Clearly it was simply a policy of "hassle the natives".

It wasn't very nice of them, considering they were only a "peace keeping force" I doubt few here would of liked it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 12:04 PM

I see we cross posted, Dave. I understand now. It surely came off differently, but we have all had those problems of context on the internet. Apologies for taking it wrong.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Mick
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:29 AM

No, Fairy Princess, the disengenuous posts come from the defenders of the British Army. While I don't dispute that Den started the thread from a specific perspective, the lot of you folks acting as if that is a load of bollocks and the these fine young British soldiers were just doing a difficult job, flies in the face of all the evidence dug up by third parties such as Amnesty and the various commissions. Forgetting all the animus you all have with each other, the facts are evident. The British Army colluded with the RUC and its heirs. They used tactics that are not acceptable, in fact fly in the face of all protocols. They stood by and watched, sometimes participated, as little kids and old people were terrorized and worse, conveniently not being in the area. Your defense of the indefensible speaks volumes.

Dave, "paddy" is a term that the Irish might use among themselves. But its use, and by whom, determines how one might take it. Please tell me that you did not mean to use it in the way it seems you meant it. Sometimes context is tough to get on the internet. I can assure you that if you meant it like it came off, you would never want to do that with me 3D. I will trust for now that you didn't mean it in its most racist meaning, but it sure came off like that.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 11:19 AM

I was pointing out an obvious fact about your whole post Den... You take far too much to heart mate, and it gets very tiring. In the culture I belong to, "Paddy" is more of a term of endearment than derogatory. The meaning of Paddy is "A Son of Ireland" and I take great offence to you impling I was using it in anything other than what it was intended as. We refer to the Welsh as "taffy" and on more than one occasion I have been called "Limey" without offence or taking the "Mickey" Get a life Den!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:52 AM

Dave do you even realize how insulting it is to call me Paddy and what was the point of your post other than to call me names.

Fairy Princess you know absolutely nothing about me, so your comments are meaningless.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:47 AM

Den,
    Your last post has to be one of the most disengenuous I have ever read on mudcat, worthy of Gerry Adams himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:45 AM

The Ministry of Defence has revealed that over 1,346 soldiers have been convicted of crimes during the last 6 years.... Convicted means they didn't get away with it Paddy my boy


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Den
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 10:33 AM

Keith, sometimes I have to shake my head when I read some of your comments. I started this thread because I thought that it was interesting that the Government would admit to anything and I thought it would of interest to people here. I did not start it to troll as Mr. Mackenzie has stated above. Comparing civilian crimes with those perpatrated by civil servants is ludicrous and an extremely weak way in which to score points. Should we compare the crime figures in England to those provided for N. Ireland. What would that prove? Everyone who has defended the army miscreants in this thread seem to completely ignore the fact that the Ministry of Defense has acknowledged the fact that soldiers robbed, raped and murdered. Does this not shock anyone or is it because the ones being robbed, raped and murdered were just a bunch of Paddys. I think that it is important for the government to come clean. It is time for truth and reconciliation from all corners for without it there is no foundation from which to build the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 09:16 AM

Nitpicking Keith, we want shut of it.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 08:24 AM

Returning to the thread,
Divis, you said "paid to keep the peace by the government and strut about with an SA80 in their hands looking like good boys "

But these are just soldiers Divis.
You and Ard have called them Scum of the Earth.
They are predominantly recruited from the most deprived and crime infested parts of Britain. Those very parts that Ard has been on about in his Britain's Yobs thread.
The figures for NI people is for all backgrounds, yet still the soldiers are better.

The soldiers are of the most crime prone age, late teens and early twenties.
The figures for NI people is for all ages, including infants and the elderly, yet still the soldiers are better.

The figures for the soldiers include traffic violations while the NI people's figures do not.
Even yet the soldiers are better.

Intended as another muck slinging smear of the army, this thread has given a ringing endorsement of their discipline and behaviour.
Thanks Den.


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Subject: RE: BS: Soldiers Convicted of Crimes in NI
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 06 - 07:40 AM

Pressed too soon.......

......it's rich that their supporters are bleating so much about the said crimes committed by British forces. Where's their amnesty from the IRA, UDA,UFF et al???


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