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Review: Kennedy Collections

Related threads:
seek recording: Bert Lloyd & Peter Kennedy 1951 (21)
Peter Kennedy's Folktrax recordings (133)
Peter Kennedy First to Spot Beatles (19)
Obit: Peter Kennedy (1922-2006) (57)
Peter Kennedy Collection-moved to Halsway Manor (47)
Peter Kennedy archive collection (5)
Peter Kennedy event - 18 Nov Gloucester (3)
efdss and kennedy collection (17)
Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy (268)
BBC radio obit - Peter Kennedy (2) (closed)


Folkiedave 01 Oct 06 - 02:58 AM
Dave Hanson 01 Oct 06 - 03:08 AM
The Sandman 01 Oct 06 - 03:54 AM
The Sandman 01 Oct 06 - 04:02 AM
Folkiedave 01 Oct 06 - 04:03 AM
Folkiedave 01 Oct 06 - 04:04 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 01 Oct 06 - 04:13 AM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 01 Oct 06 - 04:30 AM
Folkiedave 01 Oct 06 - 04:50 AM
The Sandman 01 Oct 06 - 06:31 AM
Folkiedave 01 Oct 06 - 06:57 AM
The Sandman 01 Oct 06 - 09:32 AM
GUEST,Spider Monkey 01 Oct 06 - 01:17 PM
GUEST,Seán Gallagher 01 Oct 06 - 01:22 PM
Folkiedave 01 Oct 06 - 02:32 PM
Folkiedave 01 Oct 06 - 02:44 PM
GUEST,Tom Bliss 02 Oct 06 - 03:09 AM
Folkiedave 02 Oct 06 - 04:07 AM
GUEST,Russ 02 Oct 06 - 09:00 AM
shepherdlass 02 Oct 06 - 10:23 AM
Folkiedave 02 Oct 06 - 11:03 AM
GUEST 02 Oct 06 - 11:46 AM
Folkiedave 02 Oct 06 - 12:01 PM
shepherdlass 02 Oct 06 - 12:16 PM
The Sandman 02 Oct 06 - 01:22 PM
GUEST,Sean Gallagher 02 Oct 06 - 02:34 PM
GUEST 02 Oct 06 - 04:37 PM
Folkiedave 02 Oct 06 - 06:37 PM
Folkiedave 02 Oct 06 - 06:45 PM
Folkiedave 03 Oct 06 - 04:00 AM
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Subject: Kennedy Collection
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:58 AM

I felt the thread entitled Reflections/Criticisms of Peter Kennedy here was getting away from the point so I have started a new one under this title.

I ask a couple of things. Add your name. After someone under the name of Sean Gallagher tried to trick me into saying something I am a little wary of anonymous posters. He failed by the way.

Read what has been written. My views on Peter Kennedy are set out quite clearly in the above thread, please so don´t ask me them again.

Halsway Manor Society believe they are the rightful owners of the Peter Kennedy Collection for want of a better name. Peter gifted his collection by Deed of Trust to them. What that collection consists of I do not know - but it will almost certainly consist of the sound tapes, field notes, films and photographs and books. Whether the claim is to be contested I also do not know. This is public knowledge, and was written in a widely circulated email published by the South East Arts Folk Network dated I think 22-09-06

That same bulletin contained my name and since what they wrote could have been open to mis-interpretation I asked them to publish an equally widely circulating email correcting what they had written. This they were glad to do so. So if you get a copy of the first email bear in mind there is a second one.

Ask away.

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 03:08 AM

On Folk Britannia he came accross like a bit of an upper class moron, bragging about roasting a gypsy lad over a fire to make him sing.

eric


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 03:54 AM

TO Dave Eyre, can you give me any information, about the Halsway manor society.Peter Kennedy looks as if he did the right thing, and that it will remain in England, which is good news,.
2. is it likely to be accessible to the public at a not exorbitant price.
3, my impression of peter kennedy when I met him was of a man who was charming,Knowledgeable and who had a real love of traditional music,.
I was naturally very disappointed to find he had illegally taped myself and others for commercial gain.hewas clearly a complicated character capable of being very generous[ putting up strangers in his house]and capable of doing things he should have been ashamed of.
4. anybody contesting this should think very carefully. whether it can be housed in any better place than the Halsway manor society, my initial reaction is to thank PETER KENNEDY for gifting it to who he has.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 04:02 AM

to Dave, i,ve just googled the halsway manor society, and they are a very suitable recipient for this collection, this is very good news.
well done .PeterKennedy


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 04:03 AM

Can´t help you with anything about the society, but Halsway Manor into google has as much information as I have.

Cant help you much with thé other questions. Bit early to ask about charges I would have thought.

I saw him once at the Sheffield Conference.

I wouldn´t get so enthusiastic about Halsway Manor, whether the have the correct facilities is a moot point.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 04:04 AM

´"whether they have" that should read of course........


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 04:13 AM

Hi Dave - Tom here, hope you're well.

I've been reading the debate about PK with interest. I only had minimal dealings with him myself but I'm concerned about the collection because it contains what seems to be the ONLY recording of the now extinct Alderney patois in existance. I tried to find out more from Peter about where the tapes were recorded, (who is speaking, what other fragments may exist etc.) but failed because he was already not well and, I think, couldn't remember.

However I'm still hopeful that there may be more information in the 'back room' of the archive, such as field notes and/or recordings - if ever I'm lucky enough to gain access.

A couple of points for clarification if you will - as I've found it hard at times to follow the debate.

Am I right in thinking that you're selling/have sold one second-hand book by PK which you happened already to own? And that this is not part of some wider sales effort? It might be helpful if you could clarify that because I can see why some may have jumped to a wrong conclusion - specially as in your note to the 'false' Sean Gallagher you suggest there is more to tell, but your lips are sealed "I will reveal all when it is appropriate."

Parts of this debate have been very open, revealing and valuable, but there seem to be some areas where light has not yet shone. Can you advise on time-scales, for example, as this could be very relevant?

Also, is it possible for someone from the Halsway Manor Society to come here and clarify the Society's position - or for you to forward a statement, perhaps?

It seems from this site Halsway Manor that they have some good facilities and are a bonafide 'folk' institution. Did Peter bequeathe everything he had to them, both the existing FolkTrax catalogue and in his un-published personal collection, or just the one, or just the other?

If not, what is happening to any material that has bot been bequeathed to HMS - do you know?

Are you saying that if there was no legal challenge, leading to major change in the status quo, the 'Kennedy' archive (whatever that may be, see above) would reside, safely, at Halsway Manor and be available via the Margaret Grant Memorial library? If so, what happens to FolkTrax - does that still function as a separate business or is it wound up?

Also - we've heard differing views on what EFDSS may or may not hold, but not what they intend to do about this situation - if anything. Can anyone from EFDSS tell us anything?

Sorry - too many questions, I know, but I'm grasping at straws here!

My sympathies to Peter's family and close freinds. All this must be very difficult for them, and it is indeed a great shame the debate is taking place so soon after his death - but then that is inevitable in situations where someone has left unfinished but important business.

All the best

Tom


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 04:30 AM

Could a clone subsume this threrad into one of the other PK threads, please? John Adams has answered some of this elsewhere (thanks J) and it's all getting rather confusing!
Tom


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 04:50 AM

I´ll try Tom, and glad to see you and Tom getting a lot of nice gigs this summer.

As far as I am aware and I do not know for certain, all the tapes are currently stored in Gloucester. Again as far as I know they have never been duplicated, let alone digitised. The field notes are there too with the proviso again of AFAIK. I have not seen them. I am told there is a vinyl collection, again I have not seen it.

I was asked to value the book collection which I was glad to do. This did not coincide with one dealer who said it was worth very little and with another who offered even less.

I therefore began to sell the collection on commission via email to those I knew bought such things, quite a large number, and received a huge response. For example I sent the email out on a Thursday night at around 10.00 pm expecting a flood of enquiries Friday morning, in fact I was still up at 1.00 am. The email was passed on to other collectors and enquiries came in from all over the place. Queries also came from one or two archives. I had visitors who were welcomed into my home to view them as well. Not a huge number of books by the way, around 140 in total.

The "reveal all" comment had two aspects to it. One was because I believed the Halsway Manor stuff was widely known, and it surprised me when it wasn´t. I have taken a perverse delight in watching people dig holes for themselves when with a little thought they could have found out they were talking garbage. It is a trait of Mudcat I am sorry to say.

The second part of that was that I believed that particular thread was about Mustrad´s anonymous allegations and wanted to restrict it to such comments. I admit to failure on that and set up this thread instead.

Time scales I have not much idea about but you are right in that they are important. Anyone who has tried to clear a house full of years of collecting can know what a time consuming process it is. This is because for example unless you are an expert in all areas, it is possible to throw valuable things away. My wife and I did house clearances twice within the last four years so I do know what I am talking about.

I have no idea what Peter "deeded" to HMS, except as I stated earlier.

As far as the books in Kennedy Collection and Halsway Manor library are concerned, I have some thoughts on that which I´d rather not share at the moment until HMS have had a chance to reply which since I haven´t sent them yet, they haven´t. If you see what I mean.

As far as he EFSDSS is concerned they are clearly able to speak for themselves. I can assure you I maintained a liaison with Malcolm Taylor over the books.

I am sure your kind wishes will be appreciated.

(I think I have answered everything. If I have inadvertently missed things out ask again)

PS. Peter had some recordings of the Portland Stone Cutters which was certainly in some sort of "patois" involving French. Could they have come across from the Channel Islands? It was the subject of his Sheffield lecture.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:31 AM

Dave Eyre,          You get perverse delight in watching people dig holes for themselves.[your own words]
you had pertinent information which you witheld from us, has it occurred to you that if you had given us this information, less grief might have been caused to the Kennedy family.
you talk about garbage being talked on mud cat, yet you did nothing to correct it,if you had informed people on this forum, you could have done something about it,saved alot of wasted time etc., and avioded further upset to the kennedy family.[22 sept to 1st october]
    viewers can draw their own conclusions.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:57 AM

Well Dick, I constantly warn people that they should not write things of which they do not know the full facts. If they took notice of that, then all that would have been avoided.

I have already explained why I did not mention my interest in the books, but just so you are absolutely certain, I did not mention it because I wanted that thread to focus on how it started, that is, Mustrad saving up anonymous allegations over the years, publishing them for the world to read, then asking for evidence to back them up and doing it shortly after someone had died.

I would love to hear your considered opinion on that.

Finally I did not say that I knew of this since September 22nd I said that was the date that SEFAN published their email. I did not reach me until a few days later.

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 09:32 AM

there have been some forty odd posts between sept 25 and october 1, which could have been avoided if you hadnt witheld information,which may have caused unnecessary grief for the Kennedy family.
In my considered opinion, mustrad went about this in the wrong way.so we agree.
they would have done better to have found the concrete evidence themselves[ by searching folktrax catalogues[[it took me two minutes to find evidence concerning myself]]. and better still to have waited until details of the estate were known.[ Iam sure i have said this before].
Im finishing this now because they and you[ to a lesser extent] have wasted too much of my time,. .


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: GUEST,Spider Monkey
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 01:17 PM

My, Dave Eyre, you are one hell of a devious, twisted, profiteering buffoon! Did it never occur to you to suggest to the Kennedy family (my family!) that the books should be donated to an appropriate library, thus allowing us all the chance to see and read them?

No, I don't suppose it did!

Reading through all your messages about Musical Traditions is strikes me that you have something you wish to hide. I think it's time we all knew more about your activities.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: GUEST,Seán Gallagher
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 01:22 PM

I didn't attempt to trick Folkie Dave into saying anything, but just asked the straightforward question whether he was attempting to broker a deal to sell Kennedy's sound recordings to someone in the USA.

Here's his reply:

'Sean,

'No, I prefer them to remain in the UK. All I can promise you is that I will reveal all when it is appropriate.

'But than you for opening up al ine of communication. Tell me more.'

Now what does that message mean.

Slán,

Seán


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:32 PM

Well Mr or Mrs. or Ms. Spider Monkey, the words you are really looking for are "I was wrong, you were not negotiating for the Kennedy Sound Archive to go to America as I wrote that you were, and I am sorry for saying that you should be ashamed for doing so, because clearly I was wrong when I wrote that".

The other words that you were looking for were "I am sorry for writing that you had bought the Kennedy books because you clearly haven´t and I was wrong when I wrote that too".

Devious? I have a hobby selling second-hand folk books. I hide this very carefully by setting up a website, emailing lists of books and attending festivals such as the National when it was going, Holmfirth, English Country Music weekend nr. Cheltenham, Warwick Festival and Bradfield Traditional Music Weekend this year. I sell books to some of the best known names in the folk world, both here and abroad.

I hid my interest in the sale of the Kennedy Collection by emailing three hundred people about it. Many of those passed it on to others. Well there´s devious for you. I then asked to have a small correction to a SEFAN email drawing more attention to the sale posted all around the UK.

Who would have thought I would hide my interest like that!!

Twisted? Nope, having warned people they ought to know that of which they write, if they ignore me, what can I do? As for twisted someone wrote to me calling themselves Sean Gallagher and tried to get me to confess I was negotiating to sell the collection to the States, Having published the correspondence others can judge who is twisted.

Profiteering? Well it isn´t a problem it´s fairly easy to do and with the people´s permission I am happy to pass on my mailing list so you can have a go at it.

Here´s the process:

Drive to Gloucester from Sheffield, pick up the books drive back. Spend a few hours cataloguing the books by author, title, publisher, condition and entering onto a spread sheet. Then search the second-hand books databases on the internet to establish a median price for each book. Sort the books into alphabetical order. Then email the list out. When the replies come in make sure people get the correct books. Search for suitable containers for some of the orders. Take them down to the post office (less and less of them these days) and get them to weigh them for you. Get the price together and email it it to the person. Take the books out and do all that again when the person changes their mind and doesn´t want one book! Finally when the cheque comes in go down to the post office and post the books, and the bank to put the cheque in. Handle all the other queries that come in by telephone and keep informing the executor of progress of sales. Calculate the totals deduct commission and post a cheque off -for the benefit of the family. Your family.

Thre are some other bits and pieces but I wouldn´t wish to bore you. I´ll tell you about it when/if you take over the sales.

Its dead easy and I am happy to let you do it since you feel it is profiteering. All you have to do is to negotiate with the executor of the will. Since you are a friend of the family I am sure they would let you do it. Much better than a stranger like me. Tell the executor I sent you.

The destination of the books is not my concern but that of the executor of the will. If that person decides to donate them to a library it is not of my concern. If that person decides to sell them via another dealer likewise. Though since he was offered virtually nothing for them he is probably best doing it through me, having decided to sell. It makes more money for the family and to help look after Beryl who is not too well last I heard. But as a member of the family you knew that didn´t you.

As a member of the family I am sure the will´s executor will be happy to receive your advice as to which library these books should have gone to. What, simply as a matter of interest, would have been your advice? Which library would you have told the executor to send them to?

As for allowing people to read them, they have never been available to read except to members of the family. Like you.

As for allowing others to read them now, they are virtually all duplicated in the RVWML, so it isn´t a problem.

Finally I am getting a bit sick of writing this but let´s try it one more time.......

I have now written this about four times in response to similar questions from other people. Go check.

My sole interest in Mustrad is that it gathered anonymous allegations about someone over a space of time, published them on the internet and then asked for concrete evidence to back them up. No other agenda, got that? No other agenda.

The way that was done worried me. As a member of the family involved I am surprised you have not addressed this.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 02:44 PM

No, I prefer them to remain in the UK. All I can promise you is that I will reveal all when it is appropriate.

'But than you for opening up al ine of communication. Tell me more.'


I don´t know what other people think it means Seán. But here is my take on it.

First of all I am not, was not and never will be offering it to the US. I am not in a position to do so and even if I were I prefer it to stay in the UK as I said. The destination of the Collection is a decision of the executor of the will and any "Deeds of Trust" that Peter Kennedy made.

As for revealing all when it was appropriate it is already in this thread in a reply to Tom Bliss. Try reading that.

As for opening up a line of communication let me try that again.

Who are you? Is that your real name? Are you happy the collection has no chance of going to the States? etc. etc.......


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: GUEST,Tom Bliss
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 03:09 AM

Thanks for your reply Dave, and for the Portland tip which I'll look into. I drafted a longer message but Mudcat ate it! See you anon
T


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:07 AM

To help you further, it should be in the book of the conference proceedings by David Gregory.

If you are down in London it is in C. Sharp House because I read it recently!!

Which will be a clue, I don´t have a copy.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 09:00 AM

Folkiedave,

For what it is worth.

I live in the states. My son-in-law the archivist ruefully reports that for lack of funding archives have increasingly become black holes into which material disappears, never to be seen again. Until it is discarded. Assuming that the material is accepted in the first place. Not a non-brainer.

An archive cannot be made available until it has cataloged. Cataloging can involve multiple steps, is labor intensive, not cheap, and budgets are extremely tight.

I sincerely hope things are different in England in general and Halsway Manor Society in particular

Whatever PK's methods, the archive itself sounds like it should be a treasure.

By the way, I am working with a group that is making archived formerly material available that otherwise would never see the light of day, at least in my lifetime.

Russ (Permanent GUEST - this is all the ID you're going to get)


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: shepherdlass
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 10:23 AM

Oh dear, don't we all get into some ethical knots with all these collections? It's a real problem because they're not much use unless they're accessible.

Yes, it'll be great if we ever see a properly documented and hopefully digitised version of the Kennedy collection. Maybe there are ways of helping this come about. Does anyone know the "ins and outs" of lottery funding applications? Might they offer some help to Halsway Manor if they are indeed the recipients of the material, then maybe an archivist could be employed for a short contract?

As for Dave profiteering out of the Kennedy books (some of which may be quite rare but they're not unique sources like the tapes, etc), I was very grateful to receive a few of the cheaper items, and I'm sure as hell he made no profit out of my purchases!


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:03 AM

Thanks for those kind words Jude. Actually I think out of all the books I sold there were about three items that had not passed through my hands before at some time or other so there were no real rareities.

Those who receieved a copy of the original email will verify that how the books were priced was included in it, something that anyone then purchasing could check, bit of a strange thing for a nasty profiteering book dealer to do (!!)

The problem against which all this is set is time. The executor of the will needs to clear the current house and sell it. Thus clearing the collection within a reasonable time scale becomes a real problem. As a member of the family Spider Monkey will be able to tell us about this.

And thanks Russ, I suspect that is a close to the horse´s mouth as far as archiving that we may get for a while.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 11:46 AM

Presumably "clearing the collection" can't occur until legal ownership of the items contained in it (particularly that of the books, where it would appear that they may legally be the property of Halsway Manor Society, and therefore not available for disposal in the public market place) has been established ?

And if the books _were_ legally gifted to Halsway Manor presumably they will have to be retrieved from those to whom they have been incorrectly sold, since the vendor would have had no legal entitlement to sell them on ?


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 12:01 PM

I agree wholeheartedly about the clearing of the collection and as far as I am concerned, legal ownership needs to be established as quickly as possible. I would imagine any other party would feel the same and it is much more important to them.

The position of the books is slightly more complicated.

I do not ask if the executor of the will has legal title to items I take from them, bought (normally) or in this case for selling. I have never met anyone who did.

At the time I collected the books there was no claim from Halsway Manor as far as I was aware.

Thus the books were obtained legally and sold legitimately as far as I was aware.

As for the position now, vis-a-vis these books, I will not take anyone´s advice except that of a legally qualified person. And since that is just as much of an art form as accountancy - probably not even then.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: shepherdlass
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 12:16 PM

How many accountants/lawyers does it take to change a lightbulb?
What kind of answer would you like?


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: The Sandman
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 01:22 PM

I would have thought that if the kennedy collection was gifted to halsway manor society, that nothing should have been sold until it was established, exactly what the kennedy collection consisted of. it sounds a bit iffy to me.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: GUEST,Sean Gallagher
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 02:34 PM

Folkiedave, I live in Letterkenny and my name is actually Seán Gallagher.

I am not at all happy about the situation re Kennedy's collection as you describe it. As far as I'm concerned, and plenty of others here will agree with me, Kennedy stole our music and made more than a quid or two out of it - and we'd like it back!

I think you should clarify exactly what is happening to Kennedy's music collection and your own role in whatever process is taking place.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 04:37 PM

Wasn't suggesting that YOU were the vendor in this case Folkiedave - from all you have described you were acting as the agent for the vendor (ie the executors of the will) - a totally different case. The ultimate responsibility for any actions taken would rest with the executor as administrator of the estate.

The books may have been sold on, but as far as I am aware, if ownership did not rest with the vendor it is unlikely that the new purchaser would have any legal title to the asset in question, which would be returnable to the legal owner.(Witness antiques sold in similar situations through auction houses, or stolen cars etc) - any legal beagles out there who could shed light on the situation?


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:37 PM

Hi Seán in Letterkenny.

My role in this is well spelled out in this thread.

If you have a question that you feel is not answered then ask away

The words "ask away" are part of the first thread.

You will respect the fact that if I have answered it once I will not answer it again. If you cannot be bothered to read things, then that is not my problem.

Since you are so keen on Irish heritage, which parts of the Kennedy Collection do you not feel are duplicated elsewhere?

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 02 Oct 06 - 06:45 PM

Guest,
I cannot see how you are making suggestions as to the what, whys and wherefores of this and then asking for legal beagles out there for advice. See what I mean when I say people on Mudcat post without knowledge and then wonder why they suddenly find themselves in trouble?

Here is what legal eagles will probably say to you.

"To make any sort of judgement we legal beagles will need to know the full facts of the case. It would be impossible to do that from the material that has been posted on here and we would not rely on it".

You might sign your name.

Mine is Dave Eyre.


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Subject: RE: Review: Kennedy Collections
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Oct 06 - 04:00 AM

Kennedy stole our music and made more than a quid or two out of it - and we'd like it back!

Since you clearly have access to the Kennedy accounts, how much did he make?

Since you say you were not trying to trick me (failed) why did you write to my home email and not put your comments on here?


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