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Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy

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johnadams 01 Oct 06 - 06:19 AM
Folkiedave 01 Oct 06 - 03:11 AM
dick greenhaus 30 Sep 06 - 08:28 PM
Folkiedave 30 Sep 06 - 07:57 PM
Folkiedave 30 Sep 06 - 07:43 PM
nutty 30 Sep 06 - 02:24 PM
The Sandman 30 Sep 06 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Spider Monkey 30 Sep 06 - 01:14 PM
dick greenhaus 30 Sep 06 - 11:40 AM
Folkiedave 30 Sep 06 - 09:52 AM
GUEST 30 Sep 06 - 04:49 AM
GUEST 30 Sep 06 - 03:44 AM
GUEST 30 Sep 06 - 03:43 AM
Folkiedave 29 Sep 06 - 09:33 PM
oggie 29 Sep 06 - 04:10 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Sep 06 - 02:53 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Sep 06 - 02:52 PM
GUEST 29 Sep 06 - 02:45 PM
GUEST,Spider Monkey 29 Sep 06 - 02:22 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Sep 06 - 10:54 AM
Ruth Archer 29 Sep 06 - 10:40 AM
Folkiedave 29 Sep 06 - 10:40 AM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 29 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM
Folkiedave 29 Sep 06 - 10:13 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 06 - 09:55 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 06 - 08:27 AM
Fred McCormick 29 Sep 06 - 08:22 AM
GUEST 29 Sep 06 - 08:22 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 06 - 07:55 AM
GUEST 29 Sep 06 - 05:55 AM
Scrump 29 Sep 06 - 05:37 AM
Fred McCormick 29 Sep 06 - 04:50 AM
Folkiedave 29 Sep 06 - 04:27 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 06 - 04:10 AM
GUEST 29 Sep 06 - 03:35 AM
Folkiedave 29 Sep 06 - 03:24 AM
Folkiedave 29 Sep 06 - 03:20 AM
The Sandman 29 Sep 06 - 03:10 AM
Folkiedave 28 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM
oggie 28 Sep 06 - 04:27 PM
GUEST 28 Sep 06 - 02:54 PM
Fred McCormick 28 Sep 06 - 02:42 PM
GUEST 28 Sep 06 - 02:27 PM
The Sandman 28 Sep 06 - 02:17 PM
Fred McCormick 28 Sep 06 - 02:08 PM
Folkiedave 28 Sep 06 - 01:57 PM
Fred McCormick 28 Sep 06 - 01:33 PM
Folkiedave 28 Sep 06 - 12:59 PM
The Sandman 28 Sep 06 - 12:11 PM
Folkiedave 28 Sep 06 - 11:54 AM
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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: johnadams
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 06:19 AM

Jim Carroll wrote:

The two potential buyers for the VWML were Lomax and Goldstein; both now dead but presumably acting for somebody.
No - I don't think it should go to the States.
Thanks


As a Trustee of the VWML I can inform you that the library is not presently up for sale, to the best of my knowledge has never been up for sale, and while I have been a trustee there has been no talk of it going up for sale.

I trust that clarifies the situation.

John Adams
EFDSS Vice Chair Marketing and Promotion.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 01 Oct 06 - 03:11 AM

I am afraid that this thread is getting bogged down with material about the collection (s) when it ought IMHO to be concerned with Peter Kennedy and the Mustrad allegations. That is after all the first post on the thread.

I have therefore started a new thread called Kennedy Collection here.

If you do continue posting to this thread to discuss Peter Kennedy here is a small challenge. Think about saying whether you would like anonymous allegations about you collected over a period of time, posted on the internet, and with a request for evidence to back those anonymous allegations up. And think how your family would feel if these came out shortly after your death.

And if you wouldnīt like it about you, then there is no reason to support it about anyone else.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 08:28 PM

Nutty-
I have no knowledge of who gets or doesn't get royalties on any of the CDs I sell; I can only assume that the listed copyright holder owns the copyright. As I've said before, if any artist who's entitled to a royalty isn't getting one, please have him/her/them contact me and I'll pay it personally. Don't expect anyone to respond, though--royalties are payable only when recordings are sold, and represent 15% of the list selling price. At the rate that Folktrax CDs sell, for example, an artist would probably be better off accepting a pint instead.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:57 PM

Incidentally I receieved an email from someone calling themselves Sean Gallagher with a Yahoo email address.

Dear Dave,

I've read your messages in the Kennedy thread on Mudcat and it's clear to me that you're up to something.

Are you actually seeking a broker for Kennedy's sound recordings in the US?


This is what I replied.

1. Sean,

No, I prefer them to remain in the UK. All I can promise you is that I will reveal all when it is appropriate.

But than you for opening up al ine of communication. Tell me more.

Best regards,

Dave Eyre

2.

You will forgive me for writing again I am currently in Spain where I have a house ,and I may have given a wrong impression last night. This was entirely due to the fact it is Fiesta time in my "barrio" and I had drink taken!!

I have no control over what we might call the "Kennedy Archive" and I ferevently wish it to remain in the British Isles.

I would like to hear who you are etc. so again thanks for writing. Would you be kind enough to reveal your own interest in the matter?

Now would the real Sean Gallagher like to step forward and confirm that is exactly as I replied?

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 07:43 PM

There is absolutely no question or any truth in any rumour or statement that I am trying to broker the Kennedy Sound Collection. I am not in a position to do so and any thought that I might be is sheer round spherical objects.

Nor is there any truth in me having bought Peter Kennedyīs books.

Apart from that, not a bad try!! So you were wrong.

As it happens I am currently in Spain. Hereīs my telephone number, feel free to ring me. You will need to put 0044 in front of this number. 9588881086

958 is the code for Granada province. My house is in Almuņecar.

Strange thing to do leaving England for Spain (September 20th, returning November 2nd) in the middle of such negotiations!!

However since it is hardly a secret, except it seems to everyone on this thread, it appears that Halsway Manor Society were gifted something by Peter by Deed of Trust(precisely what I am not sure) it may have been everything to do with folk music that Peter owned, such as sound tapes, field notes, films, photographs, books etc. I really do not know and unlike others I am not prepared to make ill-founded or anonymous allegations based on speculation. But if it turns you on, feel free to do so. I shanīt sue.

As for ignoring your questions sometimes I am in front of the computer and sometimes not.

I have answered every single question asked of me on this thread honestly and truthfully.

The only question that has not been answered as far as I am concerned is why Mustrad published anonymous allegations from a file saved up over a number of years and then asked for concrete evidence to support them.

Now I am happy to sign my name to the things I write. So care to withdraw what you wrote about me - whoever you are?

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: nutty
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:24 PM

And when you sell them Dick .... who does the money go to?

Do you pay royalties to the songwriters/preformers?


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 02:23 PM

I was curious about this as well,i distinctly smelt something like a vested interest.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST,Spider Monkey
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 01:14 PM

Folkiedave has ignored my allegation about his attempts to broker the Kennedy sound collection to potential purchasers.

Either that means that I am correct and Folkiedave is hoping nobody realizes as he quickly tries to shuffle the evidence under the carpet
or I am wrong but I doubt it.

Folkiedave it's time to come clean about your dealings in terms of Kennedy's collections!

Though I'm a longstanding Mudtracker I'm being anonymous about this because I'm distantly related by marriage to the Kennedys and don't want to cause a family row if it can be avoided.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 11:40 AM

Well, 300-odd CDs of this collection are available for sale to the public. And, since Mr. Kennedy didn't choose to package them in a manner suitable for sale (discs identified with hand-written numbers and almost indecipherable notes), CAMSCO Music (with Peter Kennedy's permission and blessings) has been repackaging them with proper labeling , notes and jewel cases. To date, CAMCO has released 37 of the Folktrax titles, and is currently working on a dozen more.THey sell for $18 US (a bit under 10 quid.)


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 09:52 AM

Unless and until they act the collection will be lost to us

I am not sure that follows Jim.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 04:49 AM

Popping my head above the parapet on this one.

I've followed the thread; vituperative posts included and refrained from comment, as I had minimal knowledge of Kennedy or his "dubious practices". An earlier post taking someone to task ( a bit harshly, I thought)for talking about something they had no knowledge of ensured I stayed quiet till now.

Given the current uncertainty over the future of this collection, surely establishing copyright and ownership is important in order that it is dealt with (sold/retained/properly archived) in a manner acceptable to the legal owner(s).

If the archive becomes a de facto "Kennedy collection" then control over it's destiny will rest with the family and not the BBC/EFDSS: therefore its status must be established prior to permission for a sale/bequest being given by the Kennedy estate.

Furthermore, if the archive was acquired dubiously (in terms of copyright and practices- as has been debated ad infinitum) by Kennedy; then at the same time as re-establishing ownership reparation must be made to the people who were recorded.

It should be a matter of principle, not of the amount concerned.

Oh and I take issue with the comments from oggie in that the collection is "too English" to attract funding. It's anything but...

Whilst it had been mostly commissioned by the EFDSS (and the British Broadcasting Corporation) it is a British and Irish archive and I would have thought that, as I suggested in the other current "Kennedy/EFDSS" thread, members of the relevant bodies of other constituent parts of the UK and Eire, should be lobbying for retention in these isles and for access to it, regardless of the cost.

andymac


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:44 AM

PS
Thanks for the Paul Robeson information Ron
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Sep 06 - 03:43 AM

Oggie, Thanks for your summing up. I totally agree, with one exception.
The biggest problem is in activating the organisation whose behaviour led to the situation we are now in - not mentioning any names but it begins with E and ends with S.
Unless and until they act the collection will be lost to us.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:33 PM

Oggie,

You are very perceptive and I commend you on what you have written.

It is as you suggest a very complex issue.

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: oggie
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:10 PM

For the archive to survive two things are required, a) a willing seller and b) a willing buyer. For it to survive in the public domain the buyer needs to big enough and have the infrastucture to sort it, preserve itand make it available.

I do not know about the willing seller.

As far as buyers go there are a number of thoughts. If the BBC/EFDSS think the material is theirs then that can stop any purchase until legal issues are resolved. Whether the EFDSS hasthe resources either to litigate and, if successful, to curate the collection is debatable.

I cannot think of a UK based academic purchaser who would take on the collection. Possibly lottery funding would help but a) this takes time and b) it may be too english to attract funding (check out the inclusion and diversity sections of a grant application).

It may well be that the best option is for an overseas institution to but it. Let's face it Mudcat talks across continents and unless one wants to handle the physical artifacts this is as good a way as any so long as the archive is available at a sensible cost.

In the first instance the biggest problems seem to be a) establishing ownership b) establishing a willing seller c) stopping the piecemeal disposal of the archive and then finding a suitable buyer.

All the best

oggie


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:53 PM

Just a PS - I'm not lobbying to have the archives come to the "states", but I do think that efforts need to be made to have it housed somewhere. As I said earlier, in the age that we live in it really doesn't matter where the physical material is housed - so long as it is accessible to the people who would benefit from it.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:52 PM

Yes, I it was issued a few years ago on Telstar. I'm not sure if it was the complete concert.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:45 PM

The two potential buyers for the VWML were Lomax and Goldstein; both now dead but presumably acting for somebody.
No - I don't think it should go to the States.
Thanks
Jim Carroll
PS Ron Olesko
Completely off topic; do you know if Paul Robeson's Moscow concert ever released commercially?


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST,Spider Monkey
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 02:22 PM

Admit it, Folkie Dave,

Having bought Kennedy's library, you're trying to broker a deal to sell all his sound recordings to the US (and shame on you for doing so).


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:54 AM

I know that $$ is always a concern.   The Lomax collection was operating on a shoestring budget. As part of my "day job", I did some work for the Paul Robeson Archives by digitizing older films and videotape. I know that private organizations like these are seeking grant money, and that money can be found - but it is a slow process. Even the Smithsonian cannot afford to digitize everything at once, they are doing it in steps.   The important thing is that steps are being taken to preserve. Steps are also improving on allowing more access.

Joaniecrumpet's mention of the Museum of Moving Images reminds me about how many silent films have simply been lost to the ravages of time.   At one point in my career I worked for CBS and one day I was in their massive library and saw the librarians pulling old tape to be thrown out or reused.   Our heritage is rapidly being lost.

Whether the collection winds up in private hands or in another country, lets just hope that it is preserved and others will have access.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:40 AM

Gotta agree with Dave on that last point. Archives OUGHT to be keenly sought after and protected as part of our national heritage, but try and get someone - anyone - other than a private collector to take a custodial role.

I was asked to find a home for an important and fascinating (non-folkie) archive a few years ago. The university I worked for wouldn't touch it with a barge pole, and nor would any other "appropriate organisation", including the Museum of the Moving Image and several other similar worthy bodies. Too expensive, too time-consuming, too much of a headache. Most museums, for instance, can only ever make available to the public about a TENTH of the stuff in their collections. The rest gathers dust in basements.

So the archive I was offered is still mouldering in some containers in London - what hasn't already gone to America to be sold off privately, that is.

The Kennedy stuff OUGHT to stay in the UK. It OUGHT to be valued and appropriately curated.

Whether it can/will be is another matter.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:40 AM

Hi Ron,

I think it is great that the Smithsonian should take such a collection were it to be offered to them. And I agree that where it is housed is of little consequence these days and that accessibility is important.

I also think we ought to have an institution capable of housing such a collection in the UK since it is largely UK recordings and the collecting was funded publicly. However it seems not. To take such a collection and digitise it etc. is a monumental task and I doubt if there any UK institutions who wish to do so. It might be that there are one or two in Ireland. I believe a lot of the material is Irish.

The British Standard for archiving such material is BS 5454 and to just get hold of the details is over 100 pounds!!


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM

"Does he seriously think that I have no idea of the problems involved in trying to preserve an archive of that size in the elitist climate which pervades this country and everything we try do in terms of preserving its folklore ? Does he seriously think that I would rather see it go to the USA than be kept in this country where it belongs ?"

If you read through the forums here on Mudcat, there seems to be an attitude that those of us in the United States have an elitist attitude, but when I read statements like that, I begin to wonder.

I surely understand, respect and support the idea of a nation (any nation) wishing to preserve their heritage. It is vital and more attention should be paid.

However, in 2006, is it really that important where the physical collection is stored?   As long as everyone has access to the material it could be stored anywhere on the globe.   Electronic databases and servers can allow ANYONE to research, study and download material from this or any other collection.

Here in the United States, the Smithsonian Institute has become OUR repository for many collections including Alan Lomax, Joe Glazer, Fast Folk, and others. There are numerous universities that have done the same for other collections.   Everyday, access to this material is improving. I think it is fair to say that around the globe we have greater access to these collections then ever before.

Pride should not stand in the way of preservation.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 10:13 AM

there will be plenty of takers for the collection.

Who Jim?

Gimme a for instance?

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 09:55 AM

Yes, fred, but I sing traditional songs in a traditonal style and learnt songs and style from listening to traditional singers, so why dismiss me- if your prepared to use Isabel Sutherland.there is not a world of difference between Isabel Sutherland and myself.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 08:27 AM

here from Vagrant songs of Scotland a description of Isabel Sutherland on topic records 12T151, Isabel is a traditonal style singer, she was among the pioneers of unaccompanied traditional singing in London from the earliest days of the revival.
    clearly a REVIVAL SINGER, yet you[ or Rod] choose to bring her up in your allegations against Kennedy, and then choose to dismiss me because I am a revival singer. Dick Miles


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 08:22 AM

Dick,

I was speaking from a personal point of view. Rod may want to take this up. I certainly don't. Isabel Sutherland was a revival singer but she sang traditional songs in a traditional manner and she learned both songs and singing style from traditional singers. That is why she comes under Musical Traditions' editorial coverage.

I know nothing about Graeme Miles, but there is a world of difference between Isabel Sutherland and somebody who writes and sings their own material, as I believe he does.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 08:22 AM

Whether Kennedy would have sued anybody is a moot point - he kept the threat of legal action as a weapon in his armoury and nobody ever mounted a serious challenge to him. Apart from occasions over the last year or so, my own comments have always been extremely guarded and aimed at people who knew the facts - Kennedy was a windmill I had no interest in tilting, particularly as I realised that any efforts on my part would meet with little success without the support of those who could have made a difference.
If you want a concrete example of the effect of his behaviour, Karl Dallas launched a proposed 10 volume set of themed songbooks. By volume two the publishers had become so tired of persistant demands for royalties that they abandoned the series.
Why is it necessary to bring all this up now? Because the future of the collection will be decided in the near future and - as with the contents of the VWML - there will be plenty of takers for the collection.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 07:55 AM

Thankyou, to fred, I find you a little inconsistent, You ask for concrete evidence, when you could have found it for yourself.
mustrads point no6, mentions Isabel Sutherland and Robin hall, BOTH REVIVAL PERFORMERS, Yet when I am mentioned[ You claim to have no interest in the revival].
I knew Isabel Sutherland quite well, sang many times in her club at Groombridge, benefited from her singing advice, and considered her a fine singer, but she was a revival singer.
Please can mustrad be more specific about exactly what kind of concrete evidence they want, and why did they go about in this half cocked way. ,instead of going through the Folktrax catalogue, and contacting likely candidates who may have been exploited, a letter or email tactfully explaining the situation would have been possible., [ no need to ring someone up and start off about rip offs].
Finally in my opinion your attitude to the revival is flawed,the revival is only a continuity of what has gone on before. Fred Jordan is an example of a traditional singer who learnt songs from his parents
but who later became part of the revival ,likewise Willy Scott. you remind me of a person many years ago who when asked how did he define a traditional song replied thats easy ,anything before 1900, anything after that is not.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:55 AM

Captain Birdseye
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 03:17 AM

I realise everyone must behaving a laugh at my expense, having tried to defend PETER KENNEDY and then finding he had recorded Bald headed end of the Broom


I don't think anybody should laugh at somebody that's big enough to admit they were wrong.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Scrump
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 05:37 AM

Thanks to Oggie for providing that summary of the position - I was beginning to lose track of it with all the personal messages in between.

In Oggie's summary, the most important point now is this one, IMO:

The future of the archive is a matter for debate

What PK did and whether it was right or wrong may be relevant, but it's in the past now and it's what happens from now on that matters.

Presumably these matters need to be decided:

1. What happens to the archive - will it be made available commercially or otherwise?

2. What recompense can be made to anyone who feels they were "ripped off" in terms of unpaid royalties, and who can make such recompense?

3. Should PK's estate pay anything if allegations of him "ripping off" others is proven?

And probably other things I haven't thought of?


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:50 AM

Dick,

I'm sorry if this response seems a bit off hand, but I'm extremely busy right now. However, I should explain that Musical Traditions is concerned with the tradition, not with the revival. What's more, the revival is something which I have very little interest in or contact with. To make things worse, I live on Merseyside, and very seldom get as far as the North East. Also, I have only met GM once, and I doubt he would remember me from Adam. I wonder how he would take it if a complete stranger rang him up to ask whether Peter Kennedy ripped him off ?

I have to say though, that if Kennedy really did publish eleven casettes of Graeme Miles, without seeking his permission, that would beggar belief.

Therefore, while I'm naturally concerned at any form of intellectual property theft, and I'd certainly like to get to the bottom of this one, I don't feel that I am best placed to take it on. Is there anyone else out there who could look into it ?

Having said all that, we don't of course know whether Kennedy did publish anything of GM's illegally. The facts that he did so in your case and in those of other people are no grounds for assuming that he did the same thing here.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:27 AM

Jim I have to disagree with you here.

I feel there should have been a discussion before Peter Kennedyīs death about his practices and his archive. I believe it would have been honourable to do it when he was alive and to wait until his death to do so is a bit cowardly. But, I can go along with a discussion after his death. Personally I think it is a bit early to start "grave-dancing" since he only died on June 10th, but if people want to do that I can hardly stop them and I have no intention of trying to do so.

I understand from Fred McCormick that you and others have discussed his practices openly before he died. Since I feel sure I would have heard if Peter Kennedy had sued then I think it is safe to assume he didnīt.

I believe the idea that Peter Kennedy would have sued is nonsense anyway. He may have huffed and puffed a little but that is all. Anyone who felt they had right on their side would have challenged him successfully and at little if any cost.

My point is that I feel it is a wrong to save a file of anonymous allegations, publish those allegations about someone shortly after their death and then ask for concrete evidence to back them up and I am sorry you feel that that is the right thing to do Jim.

With you, I also think we ought to be concentrating on making sure his legacy in the form of the original tapes, photographs and films etc. is preserved. That way scholars would be able to sort the rights and wrongs of this issue much easier. We would also be able to sort out copyright royalties etc.

And yes Jim, there are a couple of institutions that bear some blame in this. The problem is that one has little money to spare and the other prefers to spend it on other things.

Oh, and like you Jim I donīt own any Folktrax material either!

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 04:10 AM

To fred, if youhave difficulty contacting Graeme, a good friend of his Robin Dale goes to the Darlington folk workshop,at the brittannia pub DARLINGTON. Graeme can sometimes be hard to get hold of.jim your correct, every efdss member should now be asking questions at the efdss annual meeting in relation to the future of this collection.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:35 AM

As far as I'm concerned Oggie's summation of the situation is spot on - this has been the situation since Kennedy decided to adopt the collection as his own and remains the situation now. The only thing that has changed is that Kennedy's death has made it possible to discuss the collection openly. It is to the credit of Musical Traditions that they have instigated this discussion
If the bodies that allowed him to act the way he did had lived up to their responsiblities none of this would have been necessary and the future of the collection would not now be in doubt.
If we address Oggie's points rather than nit-picking and mud-slinging we might (just) reach a consensus - though personally, I really think it is down to EFDSS to sort out the mess they have been partially responsible for.
Dave, you really do present us with a Catch 22 situation - we couldn't discuss the collection while he was alive because of his threats, now we can't discuss it because he is dead. We've all said what we think of his behaviour; perhaps if we now concentrated on the collection and its future we might get somewhere.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:24 AM

Hi Dick,

Yes, I agree, Mustrad should have found out the evidence for its anonymous allegations and then published them as statements made with first-hand knowledge.

Unfortunately they didnīt, they chose to do it the other way around. Clearly it was easier to publish anonymus allegations and then ask for the evidence to back them up.

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:20 AM

Oggie,

I think you have summed it up rather well. One minor thing, I doubt if he was employed by the BBC and the EFDSS at the same time. I imagine that he was employed by the BBC seconded at that time from the EFDSS.

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 29 Sep 06 - 03:10 AM

If mustrad had contacted people like myself, and informed them that they were on the folktrax catalogue, and checked with them about permission, a lot of unnecessary argument could have been avoided,.      
mustrad could also have presented a stronger case. Fred I suggest you try and contact Graeme Miles and find out first whether he has or has not given permission Before we jump to conclusions, Iknow its likely, but best to be sure first. Meanwhile this inoffensive middle aged man has given you some evidence, but I am not sure whether your very concerned.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 06:26 PM

Well what a spat from Fred.

Let us go through my agenda Fred because it is very simple and there is no hidden motive. Donīt bother guessing there is nothing to guess at. I have already said it a number of times on this thread and you have ignored it so far and no doubt you will ignore it again. But at least I personally feel I have tried.

The magazine of which you are a co-editor said it had kept a file over a number of years on Peter Kennedy. We know this because your co-editor Rod Stradling said so.

This file consists of anonymous allegations. Some of these are positive towards Peter Kennedy and the majority are not. The positive contributions have no comment from the publisher and the negative ones are listed under "It is alleged that:".

This published file is edited.

The piece then goes on to ask for concrete evidence of these allegations. (Emphasis in the original).

Now Fred, tell me honestly, is keeping a file of anonymous allegations, editing it, and then publishing the allegations, asking for concrete evidence to support them, the sort of standard you expect others to adhere to? For you seem happy to avoid the question however often is asked as to why Mustrad does this.

So there it is Fred, in black and white and said, I would hope, plainly enough. If you are not sure what it all means, Fred feel free to ask. For I can do patronising as well.

To ask why I have no interest in the accusations against Peter Kennedy is to ignore what I have written in this thread. But then Fred I get used to that from you. But I am happy to state it here again and it is no different from what I have written before.

I do not know enough about the collecting, copyright, and royalties aspect of Peter Kennedyīs practices to form a judgement about the man. I understand from what people tell me that they are not exactly honourable. Some of those people are people whose judgement I trust and are happy to put their name to what they write. Mustrad is not included in this because under "Peter Kennedy:An Appraisal" it publishes anonymous allegations.

I do not accept the word of someone who relies on gossip and assumptions, as you did when the question of the EFDSS and digitisation came up. Can you blame me?

I know there are other collectors and record companies whose practices are questionable and I fail to understand why Peter Kennedy has been singled out in this way. I can only imagine that the file at Mustrad is not large enough on them yet.

As for twisting your words, I doubt if you realise what you have written sometimes. But quote me an example where your words have been twisted and I will gladly retract them. I may have put words from one email in conjunction with the words in another email in a way which you did not intend but that is the way of the discussion list Fred. And it does succesfully point out the contradictions in what you write.

I have only ever quoted your own words and just because they contradict each other or show double standards does not mean they have been twisted.

But continue to ignore the awkward questions Fred.

Any views on how you think the family might feel yet?


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: oggie
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 04:27 PM

Is this a fair summation of the situation so far;-

Most of us accept that PK did valuable work on collecting folksong and music and was employed by the BBC and EFDSS whilst this was happening.

It is possible (or highly probable) that a lot of that material ended up in his possession and he has exploited it for commercial ends.

There are questions as to whether a) he had the rights to this material, b) whether those from whom he got the material received (or were due) recompense.

On Folktrax there is seems to be some copyrighted material which he had no right to sell. There is also an issue with the quality of the 'offer'.

How much of the archive is duplicated by the EFDSS (at least some) is not really known but the BBC almost certainly don't hold any.

The future of the archive is a matter for debate.

A lot of people have had quite bad experiences either at the hands of PK or other collectors.

I am not making any value judgements here. I am trying to pull some parts of this together to get it clear in my own mind.

All the best

oggie


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Subject: the Leaving of Liverpool
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:54 PM

Greg,

Seamus sang "thee." The Chicago show from 1964 is hilarious - he tells the story of the piper who won the competition with the other gentelman's piper, by composing a tune on the spot. "I don't what the prize was, these days it'd probably be in LSD..."
Kevin Rietmann


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:42 PM

Dick,

I'm sorry. I wasn't having a go at you, but I would have expected everybody on this thread to have read my original message and to have discerned precisely what I meant.

I have come to the conclusion that Dave Eyre appears to have no interest whatsoever in the matter of Peter Kennedy, or in getting to the truth of the accusations which have been levelled against Kennedy. Rather, and for reasons I can only guess at, I suspect that he is being deliberately mischevious and malicious towards me. If you disagree with that hypothesis, then study his postings on this thread and watch the way he has continually tried to twist my words around and to decontextualise whatever it was I was trying to say.

His present posturing over the problems of archiving and copyright are absolutely typical. Does he seriously think that I have no idea of the problems involved in trying to preserve an archive of that size in the elitist climate which pervades this country and everything we try do in terms of preserving its folklore ? Does he seriously think that I would rather see it go to the USA than be kept in this country where it belongs ? And is he such a berk that he doesn't realise photographs and films can be digitised ?

Bear in mind that I have been on the receiving end of two weeks of crap from this so and so and from several other people, yourself included.

You at least seem to have realised that there is something in what Jim Carroll and I and several others have been saying. And BTW., thanks for pointing out the eleven Graeme Miles cassettes. I had no idea that it had climbed to that number and I'm wondering whether GM even knows. I have only met him once, at a conference last year, and he struck me as a very pleasant inoffensive old man. Not the sort of person I would want to see ripped off.

Dave Eyre however persists in trying to obscure the main issue, and I am seriously beginning to wonder if there is something which he personally is frightened of coming out.

And yes, I'm off out for a pint and a listen to some bloody good New Orleans jazz, and the company of some sensible, convival people. It's nice to know that a few of us exist.


Fred, you seem very uptight,
If I want to talk about their preservation ,I am entitled too.The subject is reflections and critcism of Peter Kennedy. in the tone of Just A Minute, we have all deviated somewhat. I am going to deviate and have a beer ,why dont you give it a try.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:27 PM

The recordings held by EFDSS and NSA are by and large the same ones that are being sold on the Folktrax label.
I worked extensively on the collection at Cecil Sharp House; I know it inside out and have compared it to the Folktrax cassettes I have come across.
Why has storage facilities now become an issue - it sounds somewhat of a red-herring. Does anybody know how they are stored at present? The last thing I heard was that they were kept on open shelves in a centrally heated room.
Certainly NSA has ideal facilites for storing them, and adequately knowledgeable staff for looking after them.
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:17 PM

Fred, you seem very uptight,
If I want to talk about their preservation ,I am entitled too.The subject is reflections and critcism of Peter Kennedy. in the tone of Just A Minute, we have all deviated somewhat. I am going to deviate and have a beer ,why dont you give it a try.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 02:08 PM

O.K. Dave. You go and find storage space to house this archive and the money to maintain it, since it has suddenly got to be so easy. This afternoon you were sniggering at me for allegedly ignoring the problems. Now you're sniggering at me for recognising that the problems exist.

I don't know what your game is, or what you hope to get out of it, but ever since this thread started you have sought to belittle those of us who have known what the rest of the world did not; that Kennedy swindled people.

Throughout this entire thread you have not contributed one positive comment. All you have done is to twist my words and the words of those who expressed concern at Kennedy's culpability. And I am beginning to wonder why.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:57 PM

Got it Fred. Got it loud and clear. You donīt care where the collection ends up because the EFDSS and the NSA have digitised copies.

Will it matter then if they donīt? Will you be happy to let the original Kennedy tapes go abroad?

For despite your bluster Fred, you were wrong about one of them.

What you wrote was:

There was talk some time ago of the EFDSS obtaining a set of the digitised NSA copies. Someone else referred to them having a set and I assumed that work on obtaining them was in progress or complete.

See that Fred ....based on gossip and assumptions. Letīs hope you are right about the NSA. I am not so sure and unlike you who bases his assertions on gossip and assumptions I intend to find out.

I take it you are not bothered about the films and the photographs then, and you donīt see these as part of the national heritage.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Fred McCormick
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 01:33 PM

How many times do I have to say this ? I was not raising the problems of archiving and preservation. I was wondering what is likely to happen to happen to the copyright situation if the colection ends up in America.

Got that Dick ? Got that Dave ?

Not archiving and preservation. Not making great statements or worrying about storage space or archiving costs or any of the myriad problems which surround archiving a collection that size.

Copyright pure and simple.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:59 PM

As I have said at length Dick, it is finding someone who wants them and can make them available to people, not just a matter of preservation.

Dave Eyre


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 12:11 PM

Dave Eyre is right, whoever gets the kennedy collection, they must be able to preserve them and keep them in good condition,.
from my point of view, if either EFDSS OR COMHALTAS or any museum, library in the british isles or ireland ,with appropriate storage facilities gets them ,great.


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Subject: RE: Reflections/Criticism of Peter Kennedy
From: Folkiedave
Date: 28 Sep 06 - 11:54 AM

Re. Dave Eyre's bit of "research".

Well Fred it may have been a bit of "research" to you. I wouldnīt have called it that and didnīt. It was checking facts to me.

Now Fred go and check if what Andrew King catalogued was the original tapes or the complete Folktrax catalogue. I suspect you will find it was the Folktrax catalogue and I hope I am wrong.

Any news on the anonymous allegations and family questions yet Fred?

And found anywhere to house the collection?


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