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BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis

Rabbi-Sol 07 Sep 06 - 08:52 PM
ClaireBear 07 Sep 06 - 09:17 PM
Sorcha 07 Sep 06 - 10:19 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 07 Sep 06 - 10:22 PM
robomatic 07 Sep 06 - 10:34 PM
Bee-dubya-ell 07 Sep 06 - 10:48 PM
wysiwyg 07 Sep 06 - 11:06 PM
Rabbi-Sol 08 Sep 06 - 12:20 AM
John on the Sunset Coast 08 Sep 06 - 12:33 AM
robomatic 08 Sep 06 - 01:27 AM
Richard Bridge 08 Sep 06 - 04:14 AM
leeneia 08 Sep 06 - 09:16 AM
wysiwyg 08 Sep 06 - 10:14 AM
Paul Burke 08 Sep 06 - 11:08 AM
Wolfgang 08 Sep 06 - 11:11 AM
Grab 08 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM
Charlie Baum 08 Sep 06 - 12:27 PM
Rabbi-Sol 08 Sep 06 - 02:05 PM
Rabbi-Sol 08 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM
catspaw49 08 Sep 06 - 02:43 PM
GUEST,Steve 08 Sep 06 - 02:58 PM
Big Mick 08 Sep 06 - 03:18 PM
Bill D 08 Sep 06 - 03:35 PM
GUEST,steve 08 Sep 06 - 04:05 PM
GUEST,Russ 08 Sep 06 - 04:06 PM
catspaw49 08 Sep 06 - 05:31 PM
catspaw49 08 Sep 06 - 06:11 PM
robomatic 08 Sep 06 - 06:59 PM
LilyFestre 08 Sep 06 - 07:20 PM
GUEST,May your God go with you 08 Sep 06 - 07:26 PM
GUEST,Murray on Saltspring 08 Sep 06 - 09:01 PM
John on the Sunset Coast 08 Sep 06 - 10:27 PM
Wolfgang 09 Sep 06 - 06:01 AM
Bunnahabhain 09 Sep 06 - 07:03 AM
LilyFestre 09 Sep 06 - 08:53 AM
catspaw49 09 Sep 06 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Nellie Clatt 09 Sep 06 - 10:26 AM
BuckMulligan 09 Sep 06 - 10:26 AM
Dave Hanson 09 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,Colin Okeefe [The Duke of Omnium ] 09 Sep 06 - 10:41 AM
Big Mick 09 Sep 06 - 10:54 AM
BuckMulligan 09 Sep 06 - 11:08 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 09 Sep 06 - 02:11 PM
robomatic 09 Sep 06 - 02:13 PM
Big Mick 09 Sep 06 - 02:35 PM
GUEST,steve 09 Sep 06 - 03:02 PM
LilyFestre 09 Sep 06 - 03:08 PM
Big Mick 09 Sep 06 - 03:10 PM
WFDU - Ron Olesko 09 Sep 06 - 03:30 PM
Big Mick 09 Sep 06 - 03:32 PM
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Subject: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 08:52 PM

This story in my home town has already made it to Channel 7 ABC news and been plastered over the all the newspapers. Here is what actually happened.

A major well known grocery store here in town, Hatzlacha has a meat department which was leased out to a concessionaire, Shevach Meats. This arrangement has been ongoing for the past 10 years. They cater to an ultra-orthodox Hasidic Jewish clientele as well as all other Jews who keep kosher here in Monsey, NY. Everything is supposed to be Glatt (the strictest degree of) Kosher and under constant orthodox Rabbinnical supervision. The supervisor is known in Hebrew as a "Mashgiach" which translated into English means overseer. The chickens sold by Shevach Meats all came from the Satmar Hasidic enclave of Kiryas Joel in Monroe, N.Y. which has the strictest of all standards for being kosher. All the principals involved were also Hasidic as well.

Last Thursday night, before Labor Day weekend, the owner of Hatzlacha grocery attended a wedding in Kiryas Joel where he met the person who was the wholesale distributor for their chickens. The distributor asked him "How come your concessionaire stopped buying our chickens 6 months ago ?" The owner of Hatzlacha was shocked and responded' "We have an entire showcase full of your chickens as well as a freezer in the rear and have always carried no other brand". Friday morning, he called up Rabbi Breslauer who is the supervising Rabbi and a thorough investigation was launched. What was uncovered was shocking. Shevach Meats was purchasing completely non kosher (Treif) chickens and was re-packing them with counterfeit Kiryas Joel kosher labels. As a result whoever purchased chickens there has to kosherize their pots, pans & utensils either by boiling or with a blowtorch. All stoves must be blowtorched as well. Chinaware dishes can not be kosherized and have to be thrown out. Some people here have very expensive Limoges and Rosenthal china which was worth over $3,000. It now has to be thrown in the garbage. Shevach is now out of business and faces criminal charges by the Civil Authorities who were called in as part of a major fraud investigation. The difference in cost between Glatt Kosher and not kosher is over $1.25 per pound of chicken, so this lowlife made a killing while causing thousands of people to sin. This is what happens when someone worships the almighty dollar bill as opposed to the Almighty. The story is still unfolding as we speak and I will keep everyone updated as new developments break.

                                                 SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: ClaireBear
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 09:17 PM

At the risk of seeming to worship the almighty dollar myself(actually, I just like pretty china), would it compound the sin to sell that Limoges and Rosenthal on eBay or to someone like Replacements, Inc.? Perhaps that would ameliorate some of the financial aspects of the crisis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Sorcha
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:19 PM

Well, if you buy from Replacements, etc there is NO garuntee that what you are buying has NEVER been used. So, it can't be certified kosher. How sad, Rabbi. I realize this is probably a 'minor' issue for non kosher people but not for the kosher ones. What a crisis.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:22 PM

Rabbi-Sol - How much of a sin is an inadvertant sin? It seems to me that the consumers of those chickens, assuming that they relied on the mashgiach cert., and then immediately ceased keeping and eating treif are guiltless...but then, I am neither a mashgiach nor a rabbi.
BTW, how closely could that store have been observered by the mashgiach if he did not recognize those labels as counterfeit during his visits?
As the time is near, Shana Tova, Happy New Year.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: robomatic
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:34 PM

What is involved with "kosherizing" and why can't chinaware hold up to the process (After all, it was fired once). Feel free to send me to a web source but it sounds intriguing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bee-dubya-ell
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 10:48 PM

I don't see why it wouldn't be possible to kosherize Chinaware. What temperature are we talking about? Chinaware in good shape (no hairline cracks) can safely be heated to around 1000º F in a potter's kiln with no risk of damage to glaze or artwork. Nothing organic can survive that temperature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: wysiwyg
Date: 07 Sep 06 - 11:06 PM

Rabbi, my husband and I grieve the outrage done to you all both as you describe and as the wound it is to the reverence in which you hold tradition-- the china!!! representing all the Shabbats of homelife of which they have been one of the key centerpieces. I can only pray that each of you who have been wronged and offended will find it in your hearts to forgive and thereby to expiate any inadvertent sin attaching by your prayerful intercession for these outlaws.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:20 AM

The dishes (china) can not be sold because it is forbidden to derive any benefit for something that is outright "Treif". Much of it will probably be given away to poor families in the Hispanic and African American communities.

Kosherizing or "kashering" as we call it depends on how the vessel was used. If the chicken was boiled in a pot the very same method must be used to kasher it. The pot must be immersed in a larger pot of boiling water which covers it completely. I stays there for about 3 minutes. Ditto with silverware and metal utensils. Pots that have a porcelain glaze on them can not be kashered. If the chicken was baked in an oven pan, that pan has to be heated up until it glows red. Ditto with the walls and racks of that oven and the surface of the stove itself. The best way is to use a blowtorch.

Our sages teach us that porcelain, china, or stoneware dishes can not be kashered because once a "treif" substance is absorbed into them it can never be expelled. It just remains there and can not be eliminated by any process. Hence the dishes must be discarded.

As to why the mashgiach was not aware of the counterfeit labels, the answer was that they were a very high quality forgery and looked exactly like the genuine article.

How was the perpetrator able to get away with importing the non kosher chickens undetected by the mashgiach ? That is the question that is yet to be answered. My theory is that because he himself was a Hasidic man with a 10 year track record, at least on the outside he presented an image of great piety. The mashgiach therefore never thought him capable of such duplicity and chicanery and did not watch him as closely as he would have someone who was a less observant person. There are operators of kosher establishments who are not observant and some who are not even Jewish. In this case, the mashgiach is the only one who has a key to the establishment. He opens it and closes it everyday and the owner can not have access unless the mashgiach is present. Unfortunately this policy was not followed in the case of an individual who is known to the community to be a very pious and observant person. I guarantee you that after this tragic incident the same strict policy will be equally applied to every establishment no matter who the proprietor is regardless of his level of piety; no exceptions.

                                                   SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:33 AM

I have read several of the articles in the various Jewish presses regarding this story since your original posting. My question regarding the mashgiach's possible negligence is heightened by the fact kosher chicken is manifestly different in appearance from non-kosher chicken. So even if the labels were of high quality, the chicken obviously was not.
Also, I am interested, yet, on hearing how sinful, or not, the unsuspecting consumer is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 01:27 AM

If I may extrapolate not on this particular malfeasance, but on the principle in general, a shohet, or Jewish butcher, is an important member of his community because if he does not fulfill his commitment properly, he brings other folks to fail to keep the commandments, even though unaware.

I've used this as a fundamental definition of what a professional is and does. A professional, be he or she butcher, banker, lawyer, engineer, doctor, etc. is someone who is paid to fulfill functions and obligations for the good of others, but who is not necessarily detectable in doing this duty properly except perhaps by other professionals. Therefore trust, honor, one's word, all have the same importance they ever had.

Character is ever the issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 04:14 AM

Is reducing a loss not different from deriving a benefit?

If I am right, if the affected items were given to a formal charity, would their value not be tax deductible in the hands of the donor?

Just a thought.

But, as my former partner Michael Rose (who was very observant) used to say to me "Never ask the Rabbi if the chicken is Kosher".


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: leeneia
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 09:16 AM

"If the chicken was baked in an oven pan, that pan has to be heated up until it glows red. Ditto with the walls and racks of that oven and the surface of the stove itself. The best way is to use a blowtorch."

Good heavens! Sounds like a great way to start a fire or get somebody seriously burned. It is wrong to promote such a plan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: wysiwyg
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 10:14 AM

I would expect there is a ritual/practical expert whose role it is to do this, safely. And I would expect a rabbi to be able to speak about it without necessarily telling lay people all of the relevant details.

In any event, Rabbi SOl's word about it is good enough for me. I don't understand why people feel they can criticize traditions and practices they do not themselves claim. Seems to me one would need to understand it from the inside to know what's what.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Paul Burke
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 11:08 AM

I've not seen criticism in what people have said, just attempts to be helpful. Forgetting that Jewish scholars have mulled over these matters for millennia. It's one of the glories of Judaism that people stick by what they believe God requires of them, and at their own great inconvenience, seldom that of others. I know some not-so-strict Jews who keep to their tradition's subset of the full monty, often thinking themselves that it's crazy, but they are Jews so they have to do it that way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 11:11 AM

As rabbi/humorist Jack Moline noted, "Everyone who keeps kosher will tell you that his version is the only correct version. Everyone else is either a fanatic or a heretic."

Wolfgang (cutter and paster)


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Grab
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 11:22 AM

"Our sages teach us that porcelain, china, or stoneware dishes can not be kashered because once a "treif" substance is absorbed into them it can never be expelled. It just remains there and can not be eliminated by any process. Hence the dishes must be discarded."

Hmm. The whole point of a glaze on dishes is to *stop* stuff being absorbed into them. This judgement makes perfect sense for porous clay pots, but seems a bit of an oddity for modern (as in hundred years or so) ceramics. Not to criticise, but just wondering why.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 12:27 PM

Grab and others:
more about kashing china, the whys and how-tos at MyJewishLearning.com:
http://www.myjewishlearning.com/daily_life/Kashrut/KeepingKosherTO/Kashering/Dishes.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 02:05 PM

This is the lead headline story in today's Rockland Journal News. To read it go to their website which is www.lohud.com

                                           SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Rabbi-Sol
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 02:16 PM

Those who give the dishes away are not permitted to take any tax deduction. No benefit whatsoever may be derived from them in any manner shape or form.

Those individuals who have unwillingly and unknowingly eaten "Treif" as a result of being misled in this instance have not committed a sin.
However, Rabbi Avraham Chaim Feuer who is recognized as the highest authority in our community has said that we as a community are collectively guilty of not doing something right if God can let such a major tragedy befall us. It therefore behooves us do do a lot of soul searching and repentance, especially in these days before the High Holidays of Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur when we will all be called to judgement to account for our sins.

                                           SOL ZELLER


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 02:43 PM

Rabbi, I like ya' and all, but reading this is why religion, any religion, simply scares the livin' shit out of me. Please don't try and explain. Mark Twain once made a comment about the bible which for me also applies to religions. It isn't the parts I don't understand that bother me....it's the parts I DO understand.

I spent a college summer in the employ of a Kosher catering service. I mention this because it was educational and I certainly learned a lot about Kosher food and Jewish dietary law. On the other hand I have a few stories from that summer that you don't want to hear.......like when the truck broke down on the way from the temple to a 500 dollar a plate (1967)Bonds for Israel Kosher dinner at the Governors mansion. I really don't think the borrowed truck met Kosher standard as it was from a sausage packing house. It was pretty greasy and none too sanitary inside and when that rack of Chicken Capons fell over............. Well, you don't want to know any more do you?

Wars, famine, disease, still cover the world and we're talking about chickens and sin.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 02:58 PM

A major tragedy?


No-one died did they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 03:18 PM

With all respect to those (such as Spaw, Guest Steve, et al) how hard is it to show a little respect for someone's religious beliefs? No one asks you to agree, but for these observant folks, this is a major tenet to their lives. I could understand the comment, until the "Wars, famine, disease, still cover the world and we're talking about chickens and sin" part. That was unnecessarily judgemental. The judgement to be passed should be on the perpetrator of this fraud. The fact that one chooses to live an observant life doesn't hurt a soul, and is too be admired, IMO, for its devotion to God as these folks see it. There is plenty to criticize in the world of organized religion with regard to the actions of the hierarchies of these religions (says the Roman Catholic guy), without attacking or impugning folks that are simply worshipping their God in their own way. One who takes advantage of this, in fact defrauds these good folks, they are the scum worthy of scorn.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 03:35 PM

It matters little whether you agree or disagree with the dietary laws, someone is guilty of an egregious breaking of trust....as it says, for greed. He lied...he mis-labeled...and he caused enormous upset in a community that trusted him.

I don't comprehend the dietary laws, but neither do I comprehend outright lying to those who keep them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 04:05 PM

Its not disrespecting any religion, by questioning whether or not it is actually a major tragedy. This is the definition from answers.com of tragedy (in such a context).

"A disastrous event, especially one involving distressing loss or injury to life: an expedition that ended in tragedy, with all hands lost at sea".

I suggest it would be a tragedy if people died from eating the chicken.

Jewish dietary law in any case doesn't come under the ten commandments, and is a cultural aspect of judaism.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 04:06 PM

Fascinating thread.

I just want to make sure I correctly understand something.

Rabbi Avraham Chaim Feuer is quoted as saying "we as a community are collectively guilty of not doing something right if God can let such a major tragedy befall us"

So he says that this event is God's punishment of the community?

So the evildoer is guilty and the community is also guilty?

Am I getting this right?

Russ (Permanent GUEST and easily ignored)


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 05:31 PM

I dunno' Russ.....I read it that way too and it was that which set me off along with the "major tragedy" element.

Somewhere along the line I guess I thought it was religion which many used to soothe the soul. The hellfire and brimstone bunch never seemed to make sense for that very reason.

Sol, if I offended I apologize up to a point........You are of course entitled to your beliefs and I have never felt otherwise. This one bothered me and it frankly should not have. Maybe I'm just in a piss poor mood!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: catspaw49
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 06:11 PM

Sol, let me rephrase that last part.

I am sorry that I made the statement in a sarcastic way that would offend. I am NOT sorry for holding my own belief that while this is a crime, a fraud, and an act of outright greed which relied on misplaced trust, it cannot in my mind be considered a major tragedy. I hope the perp gets a hundred years based on the means of fraud involved.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: robomatic
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 06:59 PM

I had a similar reaction a few years ago when I was talking with a co-worker who was a Jehovah's witness, and learned from her that as a rule they do not participate in elections, i.e. they don't vote. I was quietly outraged and made free with my opinion, but after a little contemplation and some internet research, I looked her up and apologized, and lucky for me, she had not been offended (or at least was kind enough to tell me she had not been offended).


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: LilyFestre
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 07:20 PM

Question. If the china cannot be used because of treif, why would you pass it on to others? If it's contaminated for one, wouldn't it be for all? That strikes me as odd. Can anyone explain? I'm just curious.

Michelle :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,May your God go with you
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 07:26 PM

No, look, sorry and all that, but the idea that religion frees you from the constraints of reason is not unique to Judaism and is as wrong for that religion as any other.

To take the simplest example, the idea that a re-fired glazed object might have absorbed something through the glaze, so that although it were put again in a kiln and heated to 1000 degrees it might still in any real way contaminated is as insane as the maddest mullahs of Islam - or the idea that the sacrament is in any way other than symbolically the body and blood of Christ.

By all means have religions as sources of morality, and by all means accept if you wish to (although there is I think no real evidence) that there may be a divine being or divine beings, but do not let these things become excuses for murder, persecution, or folly.

There is a lot of tippy-toe-ing about on this thread. Mankind should not deny reason for fear of offending religions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 09:01 PM

Can anyone (rabbi, lay, or other) explain WHY things have to be rekosherised? What, in other words, is the basis for this activity? If I remember correctly, the dietary laws of the Torah don't give such instructions. Who then did? What's the origin of the idea? Which sages came up with this evodently non-scientific process?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: John on the Sunset Coast
Date: 08 Sep 06 - 10:27 PM

LilyFestre-The china is 'treif' for Jews. They are contaminiated from a religious perspective, not from a health perspective. While observant Jews adhere to kashruth, it is not required-nor even expected-that non-Jews observe the laws of Kashruth, so they may use those dishes.

For those who question reasons Jews observe laws and perform rituals that are not found in the Torah or the 10 Commandments, the reason is that Rabbinic Judaism also follows the interpretations of Jewish law and living as promulgated in the Talmud, which in the most simplistic sense an amplification of the Torah. [I'll let Rabbi Sol get me out of this one on Sunday]. :>]


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 06:01 AM

is as insane as the maddest mullahs of Islam (May your God...)

The regulations and prescriptions of any religion do not have to be rational. Some of them may have been rational long time back and are no longer now, some may be rational still today, some may never have had a rational basis but that is nothing for an outsider to judge in my eyes.

However, I would get mad at and criticise harshly any religion that tries to tell others that they have to accept the rules of that religion as well. Whatever I think privately about the rules followed by (more or less) orthodox Jews is my business and I shall not talk about it here, but there is a big difference between this incident and the 'mad mullahs'.

The community of Rabbi Sol accepts that others do not follow their kosher laws (and gives away the china). The extreme fringe of Muslims did not accept last year that non Muslims may picture Mohammed. In some interviews German Muslims stated explicitely that this rule has to be followed by non-Muslims as well and the most extreme even told that non-Muslims may be killed for not following that rule. I must say I appreciate this difference.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 07:03 AM

If religion were rational, I don't think it would be religion. Every religion I know of requires its followers to accept certain things, which at first sight are crazy.

If this brings people peace, without feeling the need to inflict their rules and peace on others against their will, then religions are can be a great joy and insperation. It's when they fail to reach this ideal then the problems start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: LilyFestre
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 08:53 AM

John,

   I guess I find that to be somewhat of an odd situation. If I were a follower of that faith, I'm not sure my conscience would allow me to give something away that I felt was tainted for others to use whether they were of the same faith or not. Don't misunderstand me, I think anyone who needed the serviceware would be thankful to have it and it's a good thing that people are willing to give it away. It's the thought process that I find odd.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: catspaw49
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 09:31 AM

LOL@Michelle.......Kinda' like saying, "Here, take this piece of junk. Its good enough for you but not for me."

That isn't what is meant at all but it does kind of come across that way doesn't it? One more word on the Rabbi saying that God is punishing them........I guess I see it like Woody once said of songs. Remember the line about not liking songs that made people feel bad and worthless? I could go find the exact quote but it was to that effect. I can't understand any religion that endeavors to make you feel worse. What's the point in that? No sarcasm, no disrespect......I'd just like to know.

I am agnostic as I can neither believe nor disbelieve. Every religion requires some elements of faith in something that is not knowable so I hit a block right there. Of course I have no proof there is no god/are no gods so that stalls me out on the atheistic path. But if I were to start my own church/religion, I would not be blaming good people for the acts of some slimey-ass thief. I really don't get that at all.

Spaw

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Nellie Clatt
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 10:26 AM

For fucks sake, a dead chicken is a dead chickem, sterilise your china with 10%HCL, it will taste just the fucking same, It won't kill ya.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 10:26 AM

Maybe there are some Lebanese families in need of replacements for lost household goods.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 10:31 AM

Yo Spaw, I'm with you, Woody had it dead right.

eric


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,Colin Okeefe [The Duke of Omnium ]
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 10:41 AM

This thread will end up with the question or rather the statement, ' religion in general is a load of bollocks '

I'm an atheist, but they say there are no atheists in the trenches, and maybe I agree with this, so simularly, a person dying of starvation couldn't give a fuck if the china OR the chicken is kosher or not. GET REAL


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 10:54 AM

This thread troubles me. It starts out with a Rabbi talking about a fraud committed on him. He goes on to explain the dietary laws. He has patiently explained why the observant Jew can't use the china. He explains that his folks don't expect others to follow these beliefs, and that they will donate the china expecting nothing in return because their beliefs forbid them from profiting in any way.

What does he get for this? A bunch of people using this to attack religion in general and his belief structure.

There has been no attempt by the Rabbi to solicit, or proselytize. He simply came to his online community for support, and what he gets is a load of shit. IMO this speaks much more for him than the rest of you. No one is asking you to believe what he believes.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: BuckMulligan
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 11:08 AM

Mick, if you place something in a public, internet discussion forum, everyone else participating is justified in assuming that you've placed it there for commentary by others. And when the posting is about religion, and not just religion but about some particularly detailed and abstruse, orthodox practices, one should reasonably expect more than just sympathetic murmurings. Otherwise, put it on a comment-free blog. "Discussion" by definition permits opposing points of view. Granted there've been some insensitive responses, but that's life, especially on the internet. I'll defend Rabbi Sol's rights to his beliefs and practices, glad to do so, but those rights do not include the necessity of everyone else shutting up in the face of them. For the record, my suggestion was sincere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 02:11 PM

Surely this is a case of fraudulent advertising and defrauding the public; can criminal charges be laid against them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: robomatic
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 02:13 PM

I think the forum speaks for itself. A situation with religious significance has occurred and Rabbi-Sol has given us an interesting insight into its effect on him and the psychological trauma to his and related communities, who thought they could trust the assurances of people, package labels, and the review process that enables them to keep their religious practises. They were betrayed.

Other folks on this forum asked some relevant questions, including me, as to where do we go from here?

Other folks then felt it necessary to give their opinions as to what they had read, and many of these opinions were colored by the existing prejudices of the people. And then, o'course, there came those of us who wished to point that out.

Rabbi-Sol, thank you for the posts, I wish you and your community well, and I'm curious as to how the miscreant winds up. From the browsing I've done I gather he is liable for a rather minor fine, but the shame to him must be great. Is there any chance he can be sued by the community for the financial losses of the dinnerware, since he as a member of the community would have been aware of the repercussions?


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 02:35 PM

Buck, with all sincere respect, spare me the lecture on public forums. As you might note, I have been posting on this particular one since 1998, as a member since 1999. I understand completely what it is about. My observation is based on remembrances of a certain tolerance that seems to be missing around here lately. Rabbi Sol didn't say anything that could be considered advocacy. He simply came to his online community to share his shock. What he got was mockery, from some, of his religious practices. I know very well that you post and take your chances, but I wish that this thread had just simply responded with empathy and a proper community attitude. It used to be like that, but lately even folks I care a great deal about, even myself, have been outright nasty.

Rabbi, I am sorry that this happened to you. I don't read any lack of respect for others in your offers to give the china away. In fact, I applaud your recognition that others might have a use for it that don't share the same religious beliefs as you.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: GUEST,steve
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 03:02 PM

I think it is extremely valid to question this episode as "a major tragedy". Sorry it isn't one. If you think it is get over it. There is enough real tragedy going on in this world to worry about.

I'm a strict vegetarian. If I accidently ate a bit of meat, it would not be a tragedy, it would be unfortunate. And my vegetarianism is informed by my religion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: LilyFestre
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 03:08 PM

Hey Mick,

   It's nice that YOU understand completely what it is all about but some of us are still learning and certainly mean no disrespect. I can't speak for anyone but myself but I have asked out of curiousity and the desire to understand, certainly not to be disrespectful.

Michelle


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 03:10 PM

Michelle, I was not referring to those that asked questions to gain understanding.

Let us get back to the discussion. We will save the discussion of tolerance on the Mudcat for another thread.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: WFDU - Ron Olesko
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 03:30 PM

" I think it is extremely valid to question this episode as "a major tragedy". "

Why would you consider it "extremely" valid to question this, yet you question others who consider this a "tragedy" in their own culture?   Steve, how does this effect your world to the "extreme", so much that you feel compelled to write about it? Yet, when someone else feels their world has a "tragedy", there is something about your moral compass that is compelled to question it?   Sorry, but it sounds a little inconsistent to me.

As I read through some of these posts, I do see people looking for knowledge and understanding. I see others that wish for nothing more than an altercation and an excuse to act out. This discussion had nothing to do with your opinion of religion and dogma, yet some of you feel a need to find an opportunity to share your thoughts with the world - at the expense of others who in their own world are feeling troubled. Instead of compassion, or simply ignoring, some people choose to put salt in the wound. What does that say about you?

Rabbi Sol, you have my sympathy - although I don't think you were looking for any. Your post appears to have been an attempt to share some knowledge and give those of us who do not understand the culture a bit of insight.   What attracted me to the world of folk music and folklore was the ability to see and understand cultures that were different from my own. I guess that there are still people around who suffer from ethnocentric leanings and do not wish to understand. It is easier to pass judgement instead of trying to learn something.

I hope that something good can come from this terrible situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Monsey's (non) Kosher Chicken Crisis
From: Big Mick
Date: 09 Sep 06 - 03:32 PM

Well said.


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