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DADGAD

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Pete 26 Feb 99 - 05:44 PM
Don Meixner 26 Feb 99 - 11:44 PM
sutnumin@hotmail.com 27 Feb 99 - 03:58 AM
The Shambles 27 Feb 99 - 06:44 AM
Big Mick 27 Feb 99 - 09:26 AM
Rick Fielding 27 Feb 99 - 08:42 PM
Liam's Brother 28 Feb 99 - 05:09 PM
catspaw49 28 Feb 99 - 05:25 PM
ddw in windsor 28 Feb 99 - 06:05 PM
28 Feb 99 - 09:14 PM
John Rainer (inactive) 01 Mar 99 - 05:33 AM
catspaw49 01 Mar 99 - 05:54 AM
Allan C. 01 Mar 99 - 04:31 PM
ddw in windsor 02 Mar 99 - 12:09 AM
GUEST,James Leo 10 Sep 17 - 08:19 PM
Stanron 10 Sep 17 - 08:43 PM
michaelr 11 Sep 17 - 06:36 PM
Stanron 11 Sep 17 - 07:33 PM
GUEST,Jerry 12 Sep 17 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,Some bloke 12 Sep 17 - 04:17 AM
Brian Peters 12 Sep 17 - 04:28 AM
GUEST,leeneia 14 Sep 17 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,Felipa 07 Apr 20 - 05:38 PM
The Sandman 07 Apr 20 - 05:53 PM
The Sandman 07 Apr 20 - 06:20 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 07 Apr 20 - 07:23 PM
The Sandman 09 Apr 20 - 02:39 AM
GUEST,Mark 09 Apr 20 - 06:28 AM
GUEST,Nick Dow 09 Apr 20 - 09:41 AM
The Sandman 09 Apr 20 - 10:52 AM
The Sandman 09 Apr 20 - 10:54 AM
GUEST,Jerry 09 Apr 20 - 11:47 AM
GUEST,Mark 09 Apr 20 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,Starship 09 Apr 20 - 12:29 PM
The Sandman 09 Apr 20 - 12:40 PM
The Sandman 09 Apr 20 - 01:47 PM
GUEST,Jerry 09 Apr 20 - 04:18 PM
The Sandman 09 Apr 20 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,Nick Dow 09 Apr 20 - 07:16 PM
Nick 09 Apr 20 - 07:51 PM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 02:24 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 10 Apr 20 - 03:33 AM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 03:54 AM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 04:14 AM
GUEST,Jerry 10 Apr 20 - 04:25 AM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM
GUEST,Jerry 10 Apr 20 - 05:19 AM
The Sandman 10 Apr 20 - 12:23 PM
Nick 10 Apr 20 - 12:46 PM
The Sandman 11 Apr 20 - 02:37 AM
The Sandman 11 Apr 20 - 03:09 AM
Phil Cooper 11 Apr 20 - 08:37 AM
GUEST,Pseudonymous 11 Apr 20 - 09:11 AM
The Sandman 11 Apr 20 - 10:23 AM
gillymor 11 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM
gillymor 11 Apr 20 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,The real Some Bloke 11 Apr 20 - 10:47 AM
Nick 11 Apr 20 - 12:30 PM
Jack Campin 11 Apr 20 - 05:49 PM
Nick 11 Apr 20 - 06:53 PM
The Sandman 12 Apr 20 - 03:49 AM
The Sandman 12 Apr 20 - 04:10 AM
GUEST,Phil Cooper from the laptop downstairs 12 Apr 20 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,Jerry 12 Apr 20 - 09:45 AM
The Sandman 12 Apr 20 - 02:56 PM
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Subject: DADGAD
From: Pete
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 05:44 PM

How is Am played in DADGAD tuning (Guitar)??

Pete


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Don Meixner
Date: 26 Feb 99 - 11:44 PM

Structurally you can bar the top for strings at the second freta and fret what would normally be the B string at the 3rd fret. You could then play all but the bassest string. Rhat would give you the right notes, the right dynamics however might be a different story.

Don


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: sutnumin@hotmail.com
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 03:58 AM

Try this one : x0203x or much better go to: http://www.ice.el.utwente.nl/~han/dadgad/


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Shambles
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 06:44 AM

Who was known as the 'Thief Of DADGAD'?


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Big Mick
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 09:26 AM

Damn, Shambles, you are getting as bad as Art. LOL

Mick


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 27 Feb 99 - 08:42 PM

It's pretty rare when a musical style's origin can be laid at the feet of just one person, but I think it is safe to day that Davey Graham taught the DADGAD tuning to just about everyone. I've heard rumours that he has had health troubles over the years. Does anyone know if he still plays on any regular basis.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Liam's Brother
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 05:09 PM

Hi!

I tried the http://www.ice.el.utwente.nl/~han/dadgad/ site and was unable to locate it. Would you mind double-checking it please. Thanks.

All the best,
Dan


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 05:25 PM

Do you need those special glasses since this is a 3-D tuning?

catspaw


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: ddw in windsor
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 06:05 PM

would somebody tell me what this chord is called? Is it an augmented? I've used an open D for years that is the same, except that the G string is dropped to an F#. Also, what's the use of this one? Is it used for bottlenecking, or is it a "played" pattern of some kind -- i.e., fingered somehow in the tonic?

thanx....ddw


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From:
Date: 28 Feb 99 - 09:14 PM

ddw,

Where have you been? DADGAD is a modal tuning. The I chord is fingered 000200. It has a blend between a major D and a Dm. This tuning is used extensively in Celtic music. It also works very well with some Appalacian music. Shady Grove is a well known tune that works well in DADGAD. I first learned it from a banjo player back in 1964 or 65. The tuning had shown up on Tom Rush's first Elektra album. He called it D-Modal tuning. The V chord is fingered 032000. It is a very entertaining tuning to try out. Enjoy!

Roger in Baltimore


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: John Rainer (inactive)
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 05:33 AM

Check out the playing of Dick Gaughan - superb DADGAD arrangements of Scots/Irish traditional material.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: catspaw49
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 05:54 AM

Roger makes a great point...remember that in many forms of music, a specific instrument will dictate styles and tunings of others over the years. As Roger pointed out, celtic (pipes) and Appalachian (App. Dulcimer) are closely related and the drone instruments associated with them are modal instruments. Jean Ritchie discusses this at some length in one of her books or as a segment of someone elses. Old age is killing me 'cause I caan't remember which! In any case, any good lap dulcimer book will also give a better explanation of modal tunings than most music theory books. ddw...check one out!!!

catspaw


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Allan C.
Date: 01 Mar 99 - 04:31 PM

Just in case any Mudcatters will be in the area at the appropriate time, I submit the following:

Pierre Bensusan will be at The Prism coffee house in Charlottesville, VA on Friday, April 16 en Francais - Saturday, April 17 in English. His many musical accomplishments include an extensive use of "non-standard guitar tunings" - especially DADGAD.

Saturday, April 17 1-4 pm: A hands-on workshop with Pierre Bensusan: bring your instrument! Although primarily geared towards the guitar, practically any musician would gain some invaluable insights in how to approach music in general, tone production, and getting the most out of your instrument. All levels are encouraged to attend: this is one of the most effective master-classes taught by a major acoustic artist. Fee: $25.00 for the three hours.

Here is a link which will tell more about the artist and the coffee house:

The Prism coffee house


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: ddw in windsor
Date: 02 Mar 99 - 12:09 AM

Roger,

Thanx. I've been out of the music scene since about 1974, probably spending less than 12 hours with my guitar until about a year ago when I got involved with a local folk club. I had encountered the tuning only once when I borrowed a guitar from another club member for a couple of tunes and she warned me it was in DADGAD. I just retuned it to standard and didn't really think about it much until this thread showed up.

Just as an aside, I noticed on some of his liner notes that Tom Rush plays in a C tuning on some of his songs, but I didn't know exactly what he was doing, so I made up a C tuning that I think sounds pretty good. It's CGCGCC, with the E note played by bottlenecking to the 4th on the #1 string. Fool around with that a while and let me know what you think.

cheers

ddw


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,James Leo
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:19 PM

http://www.mudcat.org/blickifier2.cfm

Davy Graham developed this tuning The Fakir


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Stanron
Date: 10 Sep 17 - 08:43 PM

Pete wrote: How is Am played in DADGAD tuning (Guitar)??

If you can do it

2 0 2 2 3 2

If that's too hard miss out the sixth string. Or

2 0 2 2 0 2

is all As and Es. Neither Am nor A major. A kind of A neutral.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 06:36 PM

A chord with no third is generally called modal (neither minor nor major).


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Stanron
Date: 11 Sep 17 - 07:33 PM

michaelr wrote: A chord with no third is generally called modal (neither minor nor major).
It may well be called that but it would be one of those terms like 'Celtic music' that are used incorrectly. Diad might be more appropriate, except that there are five or six notes there instead of two. Maybe extended diad would fit.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 03:45 AM

Rock guitarists, somewhat pretentiously, call then power chords, but can two notes actually be a chord anyway? To fiddlers they're just double stops and to pipers simply drones.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Some bloke
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:17 AM

I notice the term "Dorian" hasn't been used yet. It does help explain a few things.

Modal turnings aren't that helpful if you wish to distinguish between major and minor. That's the point of them.

I use it (and similar) a lot but the many traditional tunes that play along a minor first and major seventh (Amin and Gmaj to give an example) work far better in standard tuning anyway and if you want a drone, try a drop bass tuning such as drop D or (through my combination of laziness and not boring people by tuning between songs) drop E by fitting a capo 2nd fret, five strings across and play as D


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Brian Peters
Date: 12 Sep 17 - 04:28 AM

Any chance of combining the two DADGAD threads, boss?


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 09:29 PM

Will FLy has a nice youtube video where he explains the tuning, shows the chords and gives two examples. Before listening to his playing, I had no idea how fine DADGAD could sound.


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Subject: origins: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Felipa
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:38 PM

see Rick Fielding's comment of 27 Feb. 1999 citing the overwhelming importance of Davey Graham in spreading the DADGAD tuning. I only learned tonight from a BBC radio 4 programme on "black music in Europe" of how Graham developed the tuning in order to play on his guitar the music he heard while travelling in Morocco.

I see the programme at https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000h0f2 where there is also a playlist of the music.

Tonight's programme started off with tales of decolonization; music was only a backdrop until the story of how Davey Graham developed DADGAD tuning on his guitar in order to play Moroccan music. Martin Simpson was interviewed about that tuning. DADGAD is a versatile tuning, and I was mostly familiar with it as a tuning used for backing Irish music ... I did not know this history.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Davey_Graham


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 05:53 PM

dorian is a, these are the two most common modes in appalchian scottish and irish music


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 06:20 PM

dorian is amajorscale with flat 3and flat 7. mixolydian is major scale with flat 7


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 07 Apr 20 - 07:23 PM

I think it's worth experimenting with a chubb 3 string partial capo. This gives you a sort of DADGAD with the option of regular chord shapes.
Cost about £20


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 02:39 AM

yes, i have one and find it very useful if you put the partial capo on strings 234 you also have open a tuning, it is very useful from switching from either open tuning, open a, or dadgad, only a little bit of fine tuning needed. if you use g 6 standard shape with partial capo 0n2nd fret you have a g chord[ actualy in reality it is a] if you do not strike 1 string. c shape is the same over again miss 1 string unless you want c9. d shape you can use 1 string. if you do this with capo on 4th fret you are in b major but dont hit 6 string. this is a much more useful b major than using a bar shpe in ordinary standard. i find the partial capo very flexible


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 06:28 AM

"dorian is amajorscale with flat 3and flat 7."

Well, I'm not taking music lessons from you...


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 09:41 AM

There is another option, use a spider Capo, a bit too fiddly for live work though unless you use two guitars. Worth a look.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 10:52 AM

dorian is the major scale with flttened 7 th and flattened third, so g major would be gabcdf#g
g dorian is g a bflat c d e fnat g. well mark if you want to enjoy your ignorance and make stupid remarks, carry on andnj your ignorance you prat


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 10:54 AM

g major is gabcdef#g ,typo omitting the sixth note e


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 11:47 AM

For what itís worth, I tend to think of Dorian as a minor scale with the sixth note sharpened, as typified by many Irish fiddle tunes, (the Rakes of Kildare, Morrisonís Jig, Cooleyís Reel, etc) where any chordal accompaniment tends to work better with minor chords (Em or Am) alternating with a major flat 7th chord (D or G). Some will argue itís wrong to think in terms of chords anyway, hence the popularity of DADGAD and use of bouzouki for accompaniment, where chords without thirds in them are easier, and produce a pleasing ambiguity between major and minor, rather than strait jacketing the tune into a more familiar modern key and scale. No doubt others view it differently.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Mark
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 12:11 PM

There's no need to be offensive Sandman. You are in no position to judge my ignorance or otherwise on matters of musical theory.

While you can reach Dorian mode in the way you describe, to start from the major scale and to describe Dorian as "a major scale" with some adjustments seems to me to miss the point, and for anyone trying to learn musical theory from your posts this description is potentially misleading.

As Jerry says, the crucial points of the Dorian mode are that it's a minor mode and that it differs from the natural minor (or Aeolian mode, if you prefer) by having the sharpened 6th.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Starship
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 12:29 PM

Modes explained.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 12:40 PM

it makes no difference unless you are accompanying with chords they are still the same notes, g dorian is still g a bflat c d e fnat g,DO YOU UNDERSTAND,
it makes no differnce how you describe it, unless you are teaching and my experience has been that to show it the way i describe comparing it to a major scale works. YES I HAVE FOUND IT WORKS then depending on the pupils ability ,play a tune in the dorian mode and show the chords ,ok. you were being offensive by saying that you would not take music lessons from me, what makes you think i would want to give you lessons.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 01:47 PM

the important idea behind dadgad, in common with dgdgcd or cgcgcd or carthys tuning is that one string is one tone eg ga in dadgad. NickDow is more expert on this than i am


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 04:18 PM

I hadnít thought about that, but yes, if one string is one tone below the next higher one, it allows you to slide up that string to form the main open chord. I imagine it was first used by Davey Graham in She Moved Through The Fair and Bert Jansch in First Time Ever I Saw Your Face, but since then has become a bit of a sonic cliche, probably because itís such fun to play. I daresay you can say the same about Sawmill tuning on five string banjo (gDGCD).


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 04:49 PM

well with sawmill you are generally playing melody and getting away from a chordal approach ,often just using top g string as a drone, funny i was playing the cuckoo this afternoon in that tuning on the banjo


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Nick Dow
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 07:16 PM

The advantage of DADGAD is that it is possible to play in two or three keys. d-g-c.(C is a bit difficult)
Nobody has picked up upon the Spider Capo comment. Does anyone use it?


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Nick
Date: 09 Apr 20 - 07:51 PM

I have a couple and have had some fun messing around with it. I donít use it much but think itís a very clever little contraption and they are interesting when using two (I did have three but gave one to a friend who I thought might use it).

Thereís the beginnings of a little tune I was playing around with for a friends birthday on YouTube which was a spider experiment. I introduced a friend that I play with in our band to the partial capo DADGAD thing and he uses it quite a lot now.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 02:24 AM

nick dow ,no i find the shubb partial capo better


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:33 AM

"dorian is amajorscale with flat 3and flat 7"

This is at best misleading. A person setting out to teach something should be able to come up with an unambiguous explanation of the concept in question. What we got was an unclear account. On that basis, I am with Mark.

Dorian is not, as the quotation appears to state, a major mode. It is seen as a minor mode because the third is minor (ie flat 3).

It might have been more helpful to state that you make a major scale into a dorian one by lowering the third and seventh notes by a semitone each.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 03:54 AM

pseudonymous, what i normally do and this works is to show a major scale on a piano, then show the dorian scale then get the person to sing the two scales , then play a tune in the dorian modea, often examples are irish tunes are in a mode that sometimes are accompanied by a minor and g chords there is a polka that goes straight up and down the dorian mode which is a very good example it is harmnnised by a minor and g chords dorian. you can be with who you like you feckin troll this is not a question of belongning to gangs.
i am telling you that this method works very well, it is simple it does not confound beginners with too much theory but gives a practical example of a tune in the dorian mode, by using the major key or talking about tonic slfa to people who learn by ear,MY EXPERIENCE SHOWS ME THIS METHOD WORKS,it involves getting people to listen and use their ears.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:14 AM

it is about getting people to develop their ear so they can recognise a dorian scale and a dorian tune by ear and a major tune or scale by ear developing aural abilty, not losing people with technical terms, and getting the pupils to recgnise the differnces[ aurally ]between different scales and recgnising them as tunes and sounds
not explainning the chords if they happen to be players who are only interested in linear tunes but not harmony, then i do not teach the chord structures,
do you understbnd is that clear? now can we get back to discussing dadgad?


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:25 AM

I have to say, that understanding modes made a lot more sense to me once I started seeing them in terms of the intervals between the notes. I never found the conventional way of using the C natural scale (for Ionian) as a starting point very helpful; it wrongly suggests to learners that Dorian must always start on the d note, etc. If you start exploring Greek and East European scales, then the intervals are everything to me, but I donít see why you guys need to get so angry about it all. What works for some people doesnít necessarily work for others.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 04:49 AM

thanks jerry ,yes it depends what are your reasons for teaching if it is to pass theory c;lassical exams or is to help people who wish to learn tradtional music and develop their ear, if it is the latter [which is important too in classical aural exms]then learning intervals between the notes is good,
and since most people know the sound of a major scale and understand the sound of a major scales. to demonsrate it aurally is in my experience a good idea then to demonstrate modes aurally.SO PEOPLE CAN HEAR this is more important than waffling on about the crucial points of the Dorian mode are that it's a minor mode and that it differs from the natural minor (or Aeolian mode, if you prefer) by having the sharpened 6th. If i taught like that my pupils would go away baffled and confused,
far better in my experience to play a sound they recognise the major scale play it in a couple of different keys and then play the dorian or mixolydian mode with different starting points SO THEY CAN HEAR THE DIFFERENCE
AND IF ITS EXPLAINED THAT MAJORSCALES DON ALWAYS START ON THE SAME NOTE, AND THEN PLAY THE DIFFERENT SCALES so they hear them aurally , in fact they all have different starting points, SO do MODES, baffling people who learn by ear with technical terms without demonstrating the modes aurally is bad teaching.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 05:19 AM

I think your earlier comment about linearity sums it up; those who play instruments like the guitar naturally tend to think in terms of chords and harmony (unless classically trained) and those who play melodic instruments like say the fiddle will tend to think more about linear note intervals. Learning vocals is naturally more about linearity, until you get into harmony when an understanding of chord structures can help.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 12:23 PM

to get back to dadgad and other tunings with a one tone interval, the point is that if you are going to use the instrument for accompaniment rather than playing melody on its own, it allows more options and is easier [often]to use dyads or chords that leave out the third of the chord the one that establishes whether it is major or minor, it al;so makes it easier to use for example a d that consists of several fifths and roots and even sometimes, while this is possible in standard the options are more limited, however unless you are extremely skilled it is easier to play radtime and tunes that change key or modulate in standard , so dadgad has advantages and limitations. carthy changed from dadgad to the tuning he now uses not only to suit his voice but he reckons if is a little bit more versatile than dadgad


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Nick
Date: 10 Apr 20 - 12:46 PM

I had some correspondence with the late John McGann years ago (he was professor of mandolin at Berklee College of Music and an excellent guitar player too) about a tune he wrote called Canyon Moonrise which I really like. He was kind enough to share a load of comments and help with me - I'd contacted him totally out the blue - and I don't think he'd mind me sharing his comments.

ME:>When I first heard it I thought it was in DADGAD or an
>open tuning so I have learned a lot as well as a tune
>which I'm sure I will use elsewhere.

JMcG:>That's a nice compliment. DADGAD is great, but everything has its up and down side...I try to "emulate" DADGAD by choosing voicings that allow for a lot of ringing open strings. I've never liked the " 'ang on while I switch capo positions for the new key" mentality of DADGAD- it's great for specific keys and modes, but in others, you lose all the gains.

I had a slightly similar conversation with Denny Bartley when Last Night's Fun played in our local pub years ago. I commented on the freedom with which he played (he played in DADGAD all night I think from memory) and his comment was along the lines of 'it's as much a curse as a freedom as it brings with it its own set of limitations'. I think I had just been captivated by the sound of it at the time as a (mostly) accompanying instrument.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 02:37 AM

very good points, Nick.
the partial capo gives similiar effects to dadgad, but allows ease to play quickly in standard, without the problems of retuning extensively. however with the capo you cannot use dadgad in first position with all open strings ringing, the first postion partial capo is effectively putting you in to dadgad in second position EBEABE, plus the ringing strings in this position EBEABE WILL BE LOUDER THAN THE PARTIAL CAPO STRINGS. only minor disadavantages but still disadvantages compared to dadgad.
however i like the partial capo and find it useful, for songs like bold reynard the fox and lovely joan, that have a particular type of chord progression or in a particular mode[ it sounds like dorian[ but i have not botherd to check assidously,] lovely joan sounds dorian to me i think if i was in a dorian and using standard forovely joan i would use approximately aminor and g chords occasional c major, but with partial capo a different effect is obtained


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 03:09 AM

very good points, Nick.
the partial capo gives similiar effects to dadgad, but allows ease to play quickly in standard, without the problems of retuning extensively.
however with the partial capo you cannot use dadgad in first position with all open strings ringing, the first postion partial capo is effectively putting you in to dadgad in second position EBEABE, plus the ringing strings in this position EBEABE WILL BE LOUDER THAN THE PARTIAL CAPO STRINGS. only minor disadavantages but still disadvantages compared to dadgad.
   however i like the partial capo and find it useful, for songs like bold reynard the fox and lovely joan, that have a particular type of chord progression or in a particular mode[ it sounds like dorian[ but i have not botherd to check assidously,]
lovely joan, sounds dorian to me i think if i was in a dorian and using standard for lovely joan i would use approximately aminor and g chords occasional c major, but with partial capo a COMPLETELY different effect is obtained, HOWEVER TO SUIT MY VOICE, USING A PARTIAL CAPO I WOULD HAVE TO PLACE I Tbehind the ordinary capo ON FRET 7, about as high as it can go effectively ,exposing another limitation of the partial capo imo practically you can only use it on fret 2345.possibly 6 okay maybe for song accompaniment, but restricting you to five keys


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Phil Cooper
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 08:37 AM

I've read a lot of good points in this thread. I play in DADGAD a lot. Not because of treating the tuning like I'm on some holy quest (I've met a couple people who treat it like that) but because I'm lazy. I liked the sound, but also became aware of the limitations. I like working around the limitations. I find playing in F is easier than in standard, for example. Partial chords are my friend. At the song circle I used to attend I would accompany a lot of the other musicians, who were playing in standard, with single note fills, sometimes capoing to whatever fret they were on, or just playing uncapoed on the notes that sounded good. No one ever asked me to not play along.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Pseudonymous
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 09:11 AM

I think I agree with Jerry about the 'traditional' way of teaching modes, though it is a good idea to use C major as a base if the person has a grasp of C major at the outset. Otherwise it is easy to give the idea that dorian always has to start on a D note. But I maintain my point that all explanations need to be clear and unambiguous if they are to be effective, and I think this applies whether or not you use musical examples.

For me, assertions that guitarists tend to think in harmony not melody might be based on somewhat limited ideas of what guitarists do. I suppose that even the much derided technique of 'shredding' (which I have observed but not attempted) involves a mixture of both?


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 10:23 AM

get them to a piano,then not only show c major show them g major , then show them the mode in relation to c major then g major , that way they undertstand THAT THE DORIAN MODE AND ANY MODE JUST LIKE THE MAJOR KEYS can start in more than one place.
psued can we now get back to DADGAD


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 10:30 AM

I gave DADGAD a try for backing Irish tunes and didn't care for it. I find Drop-D gives you meatier chords and you can get the "modal" sound as well with a bit of finger stretching and the lower 3 strings still form the DAD so you can get those chordal runs down there. I discovered that the players whose styles appealed to me most, McGlynn, Brady, Doyle all used mostly Drop-D for accompaniment.
As for fingerstyle, it's a barrel of fun and you can do a lot with a minimal amount of left hand work (but you can do a tremendous amount with a lot of left hand work, witness Pierre Bensusan who adopted it as his primary tuning).


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: gillymor
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 10:44 AM

It should have read, "As for fingerstyle, DADGAD is a barrel of fun" (though Drop-D is too).
One of these days I'll learn to proof read before posting, not after.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,The real Some Bloke
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 10:47 AM

Another some bloke threw dorian into the debate, which is rather irrelevant or confusing... Not sure what he means but he doesn't mean me...

Modal chords, power chords or whatever you wish to call them merely miss the third interval and therefore have a droning quality that allows both major and minor within the same structure. I love playing in DADGAD as it makes picking out a melody between singing or a counterpoint whilst singing both easy and effective. I also (in standard tuning) do something similar with a three string capo.

As another "some bloke" mentions dorian, I would say that the other mode widely used in traditional ballads, mixolydian can be effective when you largely ignore the third interval too, as subdominant fourths sound so good when looking for a nice cadence. Merely flattening one note in a scale can make such a difference to the chords available without odd sounds.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Nick
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 12:30 PM

Well I've had some fun exploring prompted by some of the comments from The Sandman (and also looking back at a video we discussed some while back with Martin Carthy about choosing tunings) mostly about the G to A interval in DADGAD being at its heart. And the problems of using a capo/s too high up a guitar. If I remember the Martin Carthy he was saying that you look for tunings to give you the sound you want and/or to sort out a problem (like not being able to reach or finger something - which is one of the reasons I play a number of things in EADGCE but that's by the way)

And that has taken me to explore E A D F# B C# as a tuning for accompanying things in Bm/A. The strings aren't massively slack. Only two strings to retune but enough of a shift to break out of habits and to rely on my ears rather than the shapes of the chords I use in standard. Not a great strumming tuning so far but still exploring

So not quite on topic but grew out of the discussion.

Dick, if you were to have a little experiment for some of the songs you mentioned in Bm/A you might find it interesting. There are some nice chords like loads of easy Bminors - x20030 or x24300 or x20201 etc - lots of As x02300 or x02323 etc but lots of interesting (to me) sounds when playing some of the open strings with pull offs etc- if you wanted a G 320330 is interesting (but you'd get thrown out of a strict dorian session for introducing a wrong chord (LOL). But an easy G#dim (x20201) to keep dorian in the discussion (WTF?).

I just leave it as a slight tangent but in the spirit of DADGAD.

I even checked out the Guitar tuning database which I had never heard of or knew existed until today. Noone has yet added this particular tuning so it is probably mad or I can claim it as all my own (haha!)

Now you can tell we are in lockdown (and I'm retired) that it made me think about it from another angle (for me). Sort of going back to first principles and thinking 'what notes do I actually need to accompany or play this tune and what sound do I want?'

This may be all very theoretical and useless to people but it entertained me thinking it out and creating it and it will help me in the future when I am trying to work out alternatives to some of the strange tuning and capoing exploits that people use to accompany songs when they 'know how to play it in DADGAD or something' but can't sing it there. I will never have to work it out again and it should deal with every tuning and multiple capo combination possible. I don't think I have come across anything similar that does the same. And - yes- I can work it out on a guitar what the notes are and their relationships but this is quicker for me

I have a number of people I know who play Dougie Maclean songs 'note for note' in open C (which is a nightmare on many guitars tuning wise) with capos way up the guitar. There is usually an easier way of finding those notes!

There's a little Excel spreadsheet shared on dropbox here called What notes do I need calculator which looks at the actual notes that are being used and whether there might be other ways to simply tune without capoing at the nth fret. I've left it set with standard tuning, a capo at the seventh fret and a partial capo above that to ape DADGAD and it suggests to be that DGDGCD might be a good starting point as a tuning to give you a lot of the benefits of that configuration.

Or it may all be way too mad and confuse the hell out of people.

I've had fun though...


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Jack Campin
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 05:49 PM

You get that one-tone step in the standard tunings for the Arabic oud (D,G,A,DGc) and Turkish cümbüş (A,B,EAdg) - neither does chords, but it works melodically.

The DADGAD player I've heard most of at close quarters is a singer who has his vocal chords permanently set at 11. The simpleminded and VERY LOUD chords beautifully complement the abrasive expressionless bellowing.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: Nick
Date: 11 Apr 20 - 06:53 PM

Not a fan then, Jack?


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 03:49 AM

thanks nick, that tuning looks interesting


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 04:10 AM

excuse the thread drift, i have noticed how so many guitar tutor books never mention that it is not necessary to play all six strings at once in standard ,many jazz guitarists use middle 4 strings or top4 strings or bottom four strings, anyone here had experience of using this idea in dadgad


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Phil Cooper from the laptop downstairs
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 08:29 AM

Yes, I do a lot of single note fills on the middle four strings. I was mentioning that in my comment below, when backing up other song circle participants. If I was uncapoed, and someone was playing something in Bb, or some other non-friendly key, I could find my notes on the neck and work around what they were playing, just like being in standard tuning on the A, D, and G strings. I always made a point of not playing louder than the person who was singing.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: GUEST,Jerry
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 09:45 AM

Iím not a jazz player, but itís a lot easier to play sixth and ninth chords, if you stick to the middle four strings in standard tuning. X5455X being D9th and X5545X being G6th, but in DADGAD that would be X5457X and X5547X and much less finger friendly surely.


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Subject: RE: DADGAD
From: The Sandman
Date: 12 Apr 20 - 02:56 PM

Phil, that is clever.


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