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BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...

Susu's Hubby 17 Jul 06 - 02:44 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 11:20 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 11:09 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 11:05 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 11:01 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jul 06 - 10:55 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 10:52 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jul 06 - 10:18 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 10:11 PM
frogprince 16 Jul 06 - 10:08 PM
Rapparee 16 Jul 06 - 09:30 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jul 06 - 09:10 PM
Bobert 16 Jul 06 - 08:59 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jul 06 - 07:38 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM
Greg F. 16 Jul 06 - 07:05 PM
Troll 16 Jul 06 - 06:47 PM
Rapparee 16 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jul 06 - 05:19 PM
Ebbie 16 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM
Ron Davies 16 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM
CarolC 16 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM
CarolC 16 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM
CarolC 16 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM
Little Hawk 16 Jul 06 - 03:54 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM
Don Firth 16 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM
Susu's Hubby 16 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM
CarolC 16 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM
Don Firth 16 Jul 06 - 02:28 PM
CarolC 16 Jul 06 - 01:12 PM
Rapparee 16 Jul 06 - 11:49 AM
dianavan 16 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM
CarolC 16 Jul 06 - 02:06 AM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 02:04 AM
dianavan 16 Jul 06 - 01:57 AM
Greg F. 15 Jul 06 - 10:56 PM
Peace 15 Jul 06 - 07:28 PM
Ebbie 15 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jul 06 - 06:38 PM
GUEST 15 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM
CarolC 15 Jul 06 - 06:10 PM
Peace 15 Jul 06 - 03:40 PM
Peace 15 Jul 06 - 03:35 PM
Little Hawk 15 Jul 06 - 03:23 PM
katlaughing 15 Jul 06 - 02:14 PM
282RA 15 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:44 PM

"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains"


That's not a promise, it's a threat. Matter of fact, it's a threat to the whole world. When will the USA, which claims the right to launch pre-emptive wars on countries that have no WMD, also claim the right to make a unilateral nuclear first strike on a non-nuclear country? It has already strongly suggested that it has the right to do so! When it does, the face of the aggressor will be fully revealed to the whole world, and we will be on the verge of a world conflict in which the USA will find itself virtually without allies.

No one will be safe anywhere in such a conflict."


The above was posted by Little Hawk.

So since Truman was the one that gave us that little tidbit, does that mean that his vision of no Nazi's, no imperialistic Japanese and no Italian Fascist was wrong? FDR was also wrong? Do you think that we should have let the Nazi's exterminate the jews?

Troll is right. You can't negotiate with the Islamic Fundamentalist because of their heartfelt feeling of Israel must be wiped from the face of the earth. Just as we couldn't negotiate with Hitler, Hirohito or Mussolini. Hell....we tried to get along with them but to no avail....they wanted war. That is exactly what we gave them. The same thing is happening now with the Islamic fundamentalist.

We gave peace a chance....

They didn't want it.

So we're giving them what they do want.

Now they are crying to the UN and winning the hearts of the left in the world.

Don't forget. Israel has been very patient over the last few years. They've endured suicide bombing after suicide bombing. They still came to the table ready to talk time after time after time.

The kidnapping of their soldiers by Hamas and Hezbollah was the straw that broke the camel's back. They can't wait anymore. They know that their enemies don't want peace. Why waste anymore time?

They're taking care of the problem. They are trying to surround Hezbollah. Civilians in Lebanon are in the way. Some will get killed. Hezbollah is hiding missiles and arms in civilian's homes. People that support Hezbollah. This is no different than what Saddam did by hiding and storing weapons in schools and mosques and even in private homes.

This is where the message of "either you stand with the rest of the world or you stand with the terrorists" phrase comes into play.
And yes there are innocent civilians being killed. It's tragic. If there is any way it could be avoided then it should. But it's happening on both sides. Why are people just hearing about what's happening in Lebanon and not what's happening in Haifa with Hesbollah aiming and firing rockets indiscriminately into the city? Let's remember all of the innocent civilians that were killed whenever suicide bombers set off their payloads in crowded restaurants and public trans. buses. Does that deserve any condemnation? You wouldn't think so by reading the above posts.

Peace always deserves a chance.

But when one party doesn't want it, the only game you can't afford to play is the waiting game.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:20 PM

This one kills off brain cells . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:09 PM

LH, I know you love history (or specifically the study of it). I just tripped over this: "ORIGIN: British newspapers called bomber aircraft "weapons of mass destruction" in 1937, when the Nazi Luftwaffe was flattening towns - such as Guernica - during the Spanish Civil War."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:05 PM

"However, some more recent U.S. laws, official statements, and documents define WMD as including additional types of weapons, such as radiological weapons or conventional weapons causing mass casualties. Often these laws and documents are focused on responding to possible WMD incidents in the United States."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:01 PM

I know. I think the definition is too narrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:55 PM

It is normally defined this way: nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, and/or biological weapons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:52 PM

WMD requires definition. To some very small countries that have no armies to speak of, a country that has an army has, by virtue of having that army, a WMD. WMDs are not always the product of ABC warfare research.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:18 PM

"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains"


That's not a promise, it's a threat. Matter of fact, it's a threat to the whole world. When will the USA, which claims the right to launch pre-emptive wars on countries that have no WMD, also claim the right to make a unilateral nuclear first strike on a non-nuclear country? It has already strongly suggested that it has the right to do so! When it does, the face of the aggressor will be fully revealed to the whole world, and we will be on the verge of a world conflict in which the USA will find itself virtually without allies.

No one will be safe anywhere in such a conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:11 PM

That's easy. We'll know when The Rapture comes. If it's alphabetical in nature, seeing that we've already had The Rupture, it could be sooooooon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:08 PM

"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains"
Given the whole nature of this war, with an amorphous "enemy" we frequently can't even identify with any certainty, in what century or millenium will we be able to say we've accomplished that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:30 PM

Get your guns and get your bullets,
Lock and load! Into the streets!
Make your bombs and gas and napalm,
For The Man a load of treats!

Gotta make Peace, make it happen,
In this here and every other land.
Make the blood run down the gutters,
Ain't no Peace like a dead man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:10 PM

Yes. A new model would be: World disarmament, peaceful coexistence, tolerance toward diversity of cultures, wordwide minimum wage laws, etc...

All stuff that is impossible under the present $ySStem, because it's run by warlords and robber barons, and the last thing on Earth they want is equality and freedom for all humankind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:59 PM

Rap is entirely correct... We need a new model to follow and that involves popularizing peace and coexhistence...

Give peace a chance...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:38 PM

Just replace the word "Islam" with "Christianity" in your little historical diatribe, Troll, and you've got basically the same scenario. ;-) Then replace it with a number of other powerful "isms" (religious or otherwise), and again...same scenario. They have all spread themselves by "the sword". The American Way has been spread in that same fashion...and they called it "Manifest Destiny" (as if it were a noble thing to rob other people of their lands and their self-rule).

I find it fascinating that you use the same rationale to justify ceaseless warfare with Islam as is used by radical Islamic firebrands to justify ceaseless warfare with Christendom.

No wonder you hate them so. You see yourself clearly in the mirror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

Something to keep in mind . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:05 PM

You cannot negotiate with a fanatic...

Absolutely right! There's no dealing with Bush/Cheney/"Mad Dog" Wolfowitz/Rove et. al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:47 PM

To understand the mindset of the Islamic terrorists, we must study the history of the spread of Islam. It has always been done by the sword.

The spread of Islam into Europe was halted in Provence and the Moors were driven back into Spain. In 1492, they were driven out of Spain into North Africa.

In Eastern Europe, the armies of Sulieman the Great broke on the walls of Vienna and the spread of Islam by the sword was stopped in Europe.

In Africa and Asia this was not the case and today Islam is the major religion in many countries - Indonesia, the Philippines, all of the 'Stans - and in India, the Moghuls ruled right up until the British Empire took over and even now, there is continual violence between Muslim and Hindu.

The point is, that the desire to spread Islam throughout the world, while it has waxed and waned over the centuries, has never died. bin Laden and crew are simply the latest group to fan the embers into flame.

The goal, as it has always been, is to bring the world under Islamic law.

Unless people understand this and realize that we in the west have not caused this latest effort by the radical Islamists, the west is lost.

You cannot negotiate with a fanatic and that's what everyone seems to want to do.

It has never worked in the past, and it won't work now.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM

It's already happening, Ebbie, in "less favored" areas. Warlords are appearing all over, their weapons supplied (for the best of intentions) by the late USSR, the United States, Britain, even Canada. Weapons do not self-destruct, they can be used over and over and over -- I have a rifle in my gun safe made in mid-May, 1918, and it shoots as accurately and as well as ever. Made for World War I, I use it for target shooting and (perhaps someday!) hunting.

Getting rid of the weapons won't do it either, as they are actually rather simple to make. To make your own gunpowder, for instance, you need look no farther than Foxfire 5 or any of several other books that are out there (or the Internet). The sloppy part is making KNO3, after that it's just dangerous and, with elementary precautions, quite doable at home.

Besides, you can kill someone with a spear, an arrow, or a rock and take what weapons they might have.

The trick is, I think, to re-orient the thinking of people and nations away from violence and toward cooperation and negotiation.

I'm not up to world-saving at the moment, though. I'm knee-deep in a roof replacement at work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:19 PM

If I may paraphrase the Bible, SH, "What will it avail a man to gain the world (survive), though he lose his soul (in the process)?"

This is a notion that seems to evade the survivalists' mentality, despite the fact that many of them claim to be Christians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM

Do you have any idea, SH, how very much like the people who amass ammunition and ready their caves you sound? There are a lot of those people in Oregon and I imagine elsewhere. People like that have actively planned what to do when the 'day' comes and neighbors ask for shelter and sustenance. The Surivalists are not hesitant to say that they will shoot to kill. What a way to live.


After seeing 'An Incovenient Truth' it strikes me as ridiculous that humankind is more focused on power and greed than we are on cooperating to take back the Earth. If we don't roll back the effects we as a race have put in motion, life on this earth will- in our lifetime - become chaotic and unpredictable to the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

"We hit back hard and decisive (sic)

1) "Decisive". Uh, not exactly. Decisive(ly) enough for a dandy photo op. But for some unexplained reason, the war continues even in Iraq. Must be the opponents couldn't read English.

2) Another slight problem--we didn't hit back (in Iraq) at the people responsible for 9-11.

3) We'll keep on hitting back--until "Terror" signs the peace treaty, right? After all, it's the "War on Terror".


Use your head, for once--even though your illustrious leader, Mr. Bush, only rarely seems capable of using his..


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM

( ...resistance.....is.....USLESS!!!!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM

" The solution is to give resistance back its legitimate place in the democratic process. "

IMO, it has to be TAKEN back. The Bush admin ain't about to give nothin' to no one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains.

Once again, the Hubster does a beautiful job of illustrating my point for me.

Resistance is an important part of any free and democratic society. It is only when resistance is suppressed, and not given its rightful place in the political process that it turns violent.

A lot of people have been suppressing legitimate resistance for quite a long time, and because of this, it has turned violent.

The solution is not more suppression. The solution is true democracy and real freedom. The solution is to give resistance back its legitimate place in the democratic process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:54 PM

SH, you are suffering from the same blind spot as the Islamic fundamentalists that you detest. You can't understand the other guy's point of view or even consider it. You are apparently unaware that the other guy has also been attacked repeatedly in the past by your friends and leaders...and that figuring out who did what "first" is at this point almost impossible...because if you won't pay any attention to bad things that are done to the other guy, then you won't have any idea why the other guy wants to fight you and feels justified. Just like you feel justified.

It's sad. Tunnel vision. Osama's got it. Bush has got it. N. Korea's got it. And you've got it.

Everyone is under the impression that they got attacked first!

Can't you grasp that concept?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

The point I disagree with, SH, is this: The terror networks have still to be hit hard. They are still operating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM

Hard at it here. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM

"Back in April, the president said this:


"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains. We are deeply conscious of the fact that much hard fighting is still ahead of us. Having to pay such a heavy price to make complete victory certain, America will never become a party to any plan for partial victory. To settle for merely another temporary respite would surely jeopardize the future security of the world. Our demand has been, and it remains, unconditional surrender.""


This was the quote from the post above.

This was said by the president on April 16.........1945 and the president then was Truman. But I think the thing that bothers left wingers about it the most is that is sounds exactly like what Bush has been saying and doing.

What is different today that was not the case back then? Then it was the Nazi's and the Japanese imperialists joined by the Italian Fascist. Now it's the Islamic Fundamentalists. World War 2 was, by no means, a "clean war". Even after victory was acheived, there were still pockets of resistance driven by the hard liners or "guerillas". Those people were eventually outed and taken care of.

But now, what we're looking at is people not in uniform clothing but wacko's in uniform thinking. But they're being backed by the same style governments as what was the problem in the late thirties and early to mid forties. Fascist dictatorships.

But recently, all the left in the country is offering their cut-and-run strategy because we're suffering losses. It's as if you're saying, "Ooh....we've lost 3000+ people in a terrorist attack on one day so we better not do anything else to piss them off or we might lose more." Or better yet, "If we were just nice to them and offered them food and medicine and technology to better themselves then they won't attack us."

That is a very flawed line of thinking. I'm not saying that it's bad but at the very least, flawed. In fact, it's a very noble thing to wish and hope for but if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, you can bet that it's going to be a duck. That's been proven by what's going on in North Korea.

In the mid to late nineties, the US government met with NK and offered to share our nuclear technology with them to help them better themselves. Now, the idiot over there is flinging missiles towards Japan and Hawaii and threatening us with the same technology that we gave him so that he could help his people. Talk about a bad idea!

I'd like to offer another scenario. This time it involves you and your family.

Suppose that on the same block you live on, there is a family of gangsters. The police won't do anything because the family has yet to do anything that will get them in trouble. But since you know that for them to be charged with something such as murder or stealing, that means that they have to commit the crime first. You value your family and the things that you have amassed for your family. You do not want anything to happen to either one of them. But you start to hear through your neighbors that the gangster family is making preparations to either steal something or is threatening you or one of your children with their life just because you have something that they don't and they want it. What do you do?

1. You could go to the authorities but again, if they have not done anything that is against the law, nothing can be done. You can't say, "well my neighbor said this". That would be hearsay.

2. You could move. But then you'd have to sell your house and buy another one, move all your stuff, move your kids to another school and all the crap that goes on with that.

3. You could approach the family and ask them what their intensions are. They could say "no...of course not. We would never dream of doing that". And you could believe them if it wasn't for the fact that they're gangsters. Or they could say....yeah sure....we're just waiting for the right moment to make our move". But they've still done nothing wrong.

Where does that leave you? With no choice but either number 2 until the next gangster family comes along or the option of number 4. What's number 4?

4. Start preparing for the incident. Buy guns, locks, knives or whatever you have to to make sure that you have the upper hand. When you see them coming, let them have it. Don't let anything happen to your family or your possessions. Take care of the problem so the courts won't have to.

I know what I'd do. I know what I have done to prepare for that moment. #4

This is what the policy is. When you know that they're coming for you, hit them hard and hit them first.

Unfortunately, Israel hasn't had the option to hit first. They've already been hit. But the thing is that they're hitting back hard and decisive. They're forcing the issue of "You're either with us or with the terrorists". Lebanon has stated that they will send their military to the south to protect the Lebanese-Israeli border.

The same with us. We were hit over and over again in the 80's and 90's. Then came 2001. We were hit again. But that time we hit back hard and decisive. Then we kept going. We will keep going. And each time that the gangster family gears up and comes at us again, we will be there and hit them hard and decisive again and again.

Afterall, we've got to protect our family.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM

Well, let's get busy then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:28 PM

It isn't either / or. Thom Hartmann's recommendations in the Take Back America article, plus proportional representation, plus preferential voting. One doesn't need to be limited to a single approach. If you can get one of them passed, things should improve.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:12 PM

I don't think the measures outlined in the "How to take back America" essay will accomplish what needs to be done. I think they will just create new strong-arm majorities.

I think the only way the voters in the US will have a voter-friendly Democracy will be to establish a voter-initiated movement (independent of any party affiliations or considerations) to get legislation passed in all states to make vote counting proportional, as some states have already done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:49 AM

...but don't talk about revolution,
That's going a little too far,
Love me, love me, love me,
I'm a liberal."

             --Phil Ochs

Won't Get Fooled Again
The Who

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss


Fighting In The Streets
Cockney Rejects

You're walking along quietly
There's the sound of running feet
You turn around the corner
There's fighting on the street
See all the kids they wanna good time
They all wanna get stuck in
Don't know, don't care
if they're fighting for a cause
AS long as they get one in

Go

We're fighting in the streets

You all look for solutions
But you can rack your brains
No matter what the gov't do
Its never ever gonna change
Wankers hand hand out leaflets
They'll never ever let it be
I don't care what they do
But they better not come near me

Go

We're fighting in the streets

You're walking along quietly
There's the sound of running feet
You turn around the corner
There's fighting on the street
See all the kids they wanna good time
They all wanna get stuck in
Don't know, dont care
if they're fighting for a cause
AS long as they get one in

We're always fighting in the streets
We're always fighting in the streets
We're always fighting in the streets
We're always fighting in the streets


Street Fighting Man
The Rolling Stones

Evrywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
cause summers here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boy
But what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
cause in sleepy london town
Theres just no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! think the time is right for a palace revolution
But where I live the game to play is compromise solution
Well, then what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
cause in sleepy london town
Theres no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! said my name is called disturbance
Ill shout and scream, Ill kill the king, Ill rail at all his servants
Well, what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
cause in sleepy london town
Theres no place for a street fighting man
No


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM

Well, Peace, thanks for thinking that I am helping to preserve democracy by voting against Harper but in the grand scheme of things my vote was stolen. If it can happen in Canada, it can happen (and does) anywhere.

Just ask the Mexicans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:06 AM

What is the problem with fighting for freedom??

None that I can think of. But that is not what they are doing. They are fighting for control. There is a huge difference between these two things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:04 AM

Maybe so, Dianavan. But you at least have the satisfaction of knowing you weren't stupid enough to give your vote to Harper's party. That DOES count for something in the grand scheme of things. What it counts for is that people like you help preserve what we have left of democracy. And IMO that counts for everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:57 AM

Right, Amos, "It does make a difference to go vote."

Tell that to the people of Florida and Ohio or Palestine or Lebanon or Iraq.

You'll never convince me of that, ever again. I came to Canada because I wanted a voice but in the last election my vote didn't count here, either. I watched a politician take my vote and give it to the opposing party.

The only difference it's going to make is that when Jeb is elected, everyone will stand around with their fingers up their noses and ask, 'What happened?"

No, Amos, North American's are soft. Their values have changed. It used to be we supported freedom and equality. Now we support big business and crooked politicians. Only you and a handful of people even care. The rest of N. America is dumbed-down and over-fed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:56 PM

All that stuff Bush blathers on about is pure propaganda designed to fool people who are stupid enough to believe it

Bubby apparently not only believes it, he revels in it.

God Help Amerika.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:28 PM

Yep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

Peace, I hear just a single drum supporting that song. Do you have a tune for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:38 PM

What's wrong with all that? Heh! It's ridiculously naive, and it has nothing to do with anything that major powers actually fight for.

They don't fight for anyone's freedom.

The only people who ever truly fight for freedom are a few revolutionaries who take on the major powers of their day....like
Emiliano Zapata in Mexico in the early 1900's, like Simon Bolivar, like Fidel Castro when he was a young man fighting the Batista regime in the 1950's, like George Washington and his men when they fought the British Empire, people like that.

Major established national powers do NOT fight for freedom. They fight for dominance and control of markets and resources, and political control of strategic regions.

All that stuff Bush blathers on about is pure propaganda designed to fool people who are stupid enough to believe it. If he believes it himself, then he is as naive as the people who support him, and he's just a tool of the major interests who financed his campaigns and got him into office.

He also IS a terrorist himself. But I'm sure he's quite unaware of it, not being on the receiving end of the terrorism he sponsors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM

Listen,


Back in April, the president said this:


"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains. We are deeply conscious of the fact that much hard fighting is still ahead of us. Having to pay such a heavy price to make complete victory certain, America will never become a party to any plan for partial victory. To settle for merely another temporary respite would surely jeopardize the future security of the world. Our demand has been, and it remains, unconditional surrender."


What's wrong with this foreign policy? Absolutely nothing.

Now Israel has been sitting idle while Hamas blows up civilian markets and buses and Hezbollah has continuously fired rockets into Israel until now.

What is the problem with fighting for freedom? Do you not believe that people want to be free from having to walk or drive down the street terrified that they'll be caught up in the next suicide bombing?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his policy.

Another quote is this:

"Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated."

" … We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime."

There you go.

Terrorists supporting nations?

No thanks, I'd rather see them dead or at least.....no....dead. Along with all the rest of the world that wants freedom.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:10 PM

Which "threat and whack" scenario are we discussing today, Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:40 PM

"three things have to happen"

Oops. Musta thought I was counting Democrat votes in Florida or somethin'. That should read 'four', not three.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:35 PM

I wrote this a few days back. (Not trying to 'push' the song because I didn't write it with that end in mind, BTW.) IMO, three things have to happen, ASAP.

1) The US has to turn its Iraq stuff over to an International Peacekeeping Force

2) Bush has to be impeached

3) Congress has to grow some, uh, has to find its purpose, which is to represent the American people (not just the American rich people and corporations) and preserve The Constitution (given that the Executive branch of government seems to want to use it in ways never intended by the writers of the original document)

4) Americans have to use their collective voice, because protest ain't dead, but it has been on one helluva long vacation


The Voice

I seek the voice of honesty,
Tell me where you are tonight;
Seven children killed today,
Who never should have gone to play,
Fathers hold their tears at bay,
A mother's son is on his way,
In Arlington they'll dig the grave,
And Mr Bush has this to say:
"We're here to set things right!"
I seek the voice of honesty tonight.

I seek the voice of honesty,
Tell me where you are tonight;
Neo-cons make cauldrons roil,
They light the fires and watch them boil,
Mr Bush sends troops to toil,
To kill, to die on foreign soil,
In a phony war, the perfect foil,
For friends of his who want the oil:
"We're here to set things right!"
I seek the voice of honesty tonight.

I seek the voice of honesty,
Tell me where you are tonight;
Machines of death take to the sky,
Civilians have no place to hide,
From weapons held by either side,
The sunset brings tears to my eye,
In words so crass, so smug, so snide,
Mr Bush with the age-old lie:
"We're here to set things right!"
I seek the voice of honesty tonight.

I seek the voice of honesty,
Tell me where you are tonight;
The television screens so clear,
Put lots of spin on what we hear,
With platitudes we hold so dear,
Truth really never does appear,
George Orwell got it right I fear,
And Mr Bush can't hide the sneer:
"We're here to set things right!"
I seek the voice of honesty tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:23 PM

Putin sounds more reasonable, because he IS more reasonable... ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:14 PM

Thanks, Don. I had missed that one. I like Hartman's writing, too. His Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight was very good.

Saying that voting won't make any difference is just a cop-out imo and exactly what those in control want folks to think/feel. It's that kind of apathy which has helped put them in charge. IF everyone who is eligible got out and voted wouldn't that be a wonder?!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: 282RA
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM

Only after letting the situation between Israel and Lebanon deteriorate because we're so wrapped up in our own deteriorating situations do we suddenly think of this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060715/pl_afp/mideastunrestlebanon_060715171142;_ylt=Ar1fGytsumoyCaS.XY3FsyMUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW0


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: harpmolly
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:44 PM

Arne--

LOL!!! "Just wait..."

(Or should we say, "Just you wait, 'Enry 'Iggins, just you wait...")

Oh, yeah, Bush, that's just terrific. Walk it to him! Kick his ass with your dazzling comeback!

On second thought, I just stopped laughing. How sad is it that Vladimir Freaking Putin sounds more reasonable than our own president?

Sigh...suddenly feeling very Marvin-esque. And I've got this terrible pain in the diodes all down my left side...

Molly


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:37 PM

Thanks Arne for the link. I just can't believe how many times our village idiot puts his foot in his mouth, can't they just gag him when he goes out. It's truly embrassing.
Barry


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