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BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...

GUEST 23 Jul 06 - 01:03 AM
Amos 23 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM
Greg F. 22 Jul 06 - 09:00 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 06 - 10:09 PM
Bobert 21 Jul 06 - 08:49 PM
Ebbie 21 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM
Troll 21 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM
dianavan 21 Jul 06 - 03:06 AM
Ebbie 21 Jul 06 - 01:19 AM
Troll 20 Jul 06 - 11:27 PM
Rapparee 20 Jul 06 - 09:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jul 06 - 07:35 PM
dianavan 19 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM
Rapparee 19 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM
dianavan 18 Jul 06 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 18 Jul 06 - 09:56 PM
Ron Davies 18 Jul 06 - 09:48 PM
Peace 18 Jul 06 - 05:37 PM
Susu's Hubby 18 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM
Ron Davies 18 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM
Peace 18 Jul 06 - 03:04 AM
Little Hawk 18 Jul 06 - 02:48 AM
Peace 18 Jul 06 - 02:39 AM
Ebbie 18 Jul 06 - 02:32 AM
Little Hawk 18 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM
CarolC 18 Jul 06 - 02:08 AM
CarolC 18 Jul 06 - 02:01 AM
dianavan 18 Jul 06 - 01:38 AM
Troll 17 Jul 06 - 11:54 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jul 06 - 11:22 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jul 06 - 10:57 PM
Peace 17 Jul 06 - 10:46 PM
Don Firth 17 Jul 06 - 10:43 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM
Peace 17 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM
dianavan 17 Jul 06 - 07:02 PM
CarolC 17 Jul 06 - 05:58 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM
number 6 17 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM
Amos 17 Jul 06 - 04:51 PM
Peace 17 Jul 06 - 04:32 PM
Troll 17 Jul 06 - 04:26 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jul 06 - 04:24 PM
Peace 17 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM
Don Firth 17 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM
CarolC 17 Jul 06 - 03:44 PM
Peace 17 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:03 AM

"NASA climate scientist James E. Hansen was following the space agency's stated mission. For years, his reports, lectures and interviews have helped people "understand and protect our home planet."

But his urgency about global warming in a December lecture earned him a threat of "dire consequences" for speaking out. After he advocated a remedy the Bush administration opposed, the NASA public affairs department decided to restrict his media interviews and prescreen his lectures."

From the www


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM

Bush changes NASA mission statement - no longer interested in protecting our home planet
by John in DC - 7/22/2006 08:38:00 PM

After having given the shaft to blacks, women, Latinos, gays, people who have Parkinsons and Alzheimers, the budget, the environment, the military, veterans, New Orleans, Iraq and oh so many more, now they're giving the shaft to the entire planet Earth.

NASA quietly had its mission statement changed last February by the White House, who deleted the phrase "to understand and protect our home planet." NASA scientists were surprised to learn of the change. "Without it, these scientists say, there will be far less incentive to pursue projects to improve understanding of terrestrial problems like climate change caused by greenhouse gas emissions."

As we quoted Charles Barkley the other day, "I used to be a Republican, before they lost their minds."

http://americablog.blogspot.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 09:00 AM

even if its nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:09 PM

I understand your viewpoint, Troll...although we see it differently. I don't see the USA as a "paper tiger" at all, and I'd be very surprised if anyone did, because the USA is an exceedingly aggressive nation which is in the habit of bombing and invading places, and has been for a long time, not because those places are a real threat to the USA, but because they are an opportunity to control markets and resources...if they will just surrender themselves to America's complete control willingly.

If not, vilify them, embargo them, sanction them, threaten them, bomb them, and invade them.

That's classic big power imperialism. It's been practiced by every major power...lately most notably by the USA.

That's not a paper tiger, it's a ravening beast.

But I know we won't agree on that. Well, it's okay. We don't have to agree on everything, after all.

You figure the USA is protecting you, so naturally you are in support of their foreign policy. I understand that, and I respect your right to have that opinion if it makes sense to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:49 PM

Well, hey, self defense is one thing and bullyin' is another...

And what the heck is wrong with negotiation???

At some point all wars come to an end and guess what??? It all comes down to talkin' terms... So why go fightin' 'um if you have choices???

What I resent is a foriegn policy that is based 'round bullyin' and threatenin' folks 'er demandin' that adversaries march to yer orders before negotiatin' with 'um...

This is what we've had with Bush and guess what, part 2???...

...It ain't workin'... All it has done is rile folks up and start more wars...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM

Ahhhh. That feels better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM

Ebbie, I appologize. As Pogo would have said "I is covered with rue."

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:06 AM

Ebbie - He is not putting you on. He is very, very confused.

He is also, "...somewhat prone to stereotyping."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:19 AM

This is getting bizarre. Troll, are you putting me on or do you really NOT notice that it is NOT I who is saying the things you respond to?

THIS one is EBBIE. THAT one is DIANAVAN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:27 PM

Ebbie, I know the difference between bi-lingual and multi-cultural. I do not believe that Canada comes under the definition of Bi-lingual. To be that, a majority of the citizens would have to speak two languages, in this case, English and French and I don't think that this is the case.

I speak a little French, Spanish, German and Japanese. When I traveled in Russia and Mongolia a few years ago, I learned not only a little Russian and Mongolian but also to read the Cyrillic alphabet.

I know what arrogance looks like too. I have traveled extensively in my life and have never been treated like I was treated in both France and Quebec. I did not demand anything. I asked for a little understanding because of the differences in language.
What I got was something else. I do not say that all French speakers treat non-french speakers the way that I was treated. But I have heard too many people - and not just Americans - talk about the complete distain with which they were treated because they were not fluent in French.
I do not demand to be catered to, at home or abroad, but I do expect that other people treat me with some small amount of respect. I will afford them the same courtesy.

You seem to be quite intolerant of people who don't agree with you and somewhat prone to stereotyping. It does not make me want to try to understand your point of view.

LH, you are right. I am not Jewish.

Call me paranoid, but when a group of people, whatever their reasons, say that their aim is the destruction of the State of Israel and the extermination of the Jews, I get just a little concerned.

So, yes, it's personal. I guess that I'm just not civilized enough to have any fellow feeling for someone who would kill my family if he had the chance, regardless of how justified he might think himself.

If you want to try to negotiate with such people, feel free. But don't put me down because I fear them and their stated policies. I will defend my family if attacked and I will try to neutralize those who threaten my family.

Please remember that it has only been in the last 60 years that the Jews have had any power to retaliate against their attackers. I think that most Jews are well aware of what it's like to be the poor and opressed and they have sworn "Never Again".

As far as radical Islamists taking over North America, remember that the aim of terrorists is to destabilize the government to such an extent that the people lose all confidence in it's ability to protect them. So the people overthrow or elect a government that will be more amenable to accepting the demands of the terorists and , gradually, they take over, either by proxy or by actually getting their people elected to posttions of power.

A pipe dream? Consider Mao. Consider present-day Spain. Sure, we've got the physical power, but if we won't use it, it's useless.

As I see it, that's what the Islamists are counting on; that the US is a paper tiger who will negotiate rather than fight or will try to buy off enemies with promises of aid etc. And then the aid money is used to outfit and train more terrorists.

Read "Danegeld" by Kipling.

We are in a similar situation today, trying to buy off people who use cease-fires to regroup and resupply and who regard negotiation as a sign of weakness.

I know that I'll never convince you that my attitude has any basis in reality and I hope and pray that we never find ourselves in a situation that will prove its validity.

But I'm not betting the farm on it.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:03 AM

No, I do not judge all Quebecois by one incident anymore than I judge anyone by such. I have had great times and good craic in both Quebec, Montreal, St. Jean Port Jolie, Mont Tremblant, St. Jovite, and other places. I do find some of the cultural differences between France and Quebec intriguing, like stopsigns reading "Stop" in France and "Arret" in Quebec. Also, when the incident I related happened it was during one of Quebec's periodic secessionist threats.

As for bilingualism -- there are a LOT of places and things in the US where Spanish is spoken or printed even though the US is not (officially) bi-lingual. Even in my Library....

Of course, in this town we also have Korean, Flemish, ASL, Vietnamese, Shoshone, French, German, and Greek speakers -- to name the more common languages you might run into -- in addition to Spanish. And I can muddle through in Spanish and do a little better in French. (I'm fluent in both Profane and Obscene, however, and in more languages than just three.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:35 PM

When I travel to any country whose language I don't speak, I make a point of learning one sentence in that language.

Please forgive me. I do not speak "(local language)". Do you speak English please?

I have never had a rude reply, and mostly they have gone to extraordinary lengths to communicate.

One Greek policeman called his station for an interpreter and conducted a three way radio conversation lasting over twenty minutes just to help me find a shop that could supply parts for my caravan.

I can say that sentence in eight languages, including Japanese.

It's all about attitudes, and they appreciate it when you take the trouble to try.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM

Rapaire - Reverse the situation. What if someone from Quebec, visiting the U.S. asked for a tire pressure gauge in French? The gas station attendant might reply,
"I...am...sorry...I...just...arrived...from...England...and...don't...know...any...French".

The point is that Quebec is a French speaking Province and thats why Canada is bi-lingual. If you can't speak French, you might find making your way around a bit more difficult. I don't think you can judge the people of Quebec by the comment of a gas station attendant. As far as I know, your voice might have sounded demanding to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM

Uh-huh. Such as the time in Montreal when I asked for a tire gauge in english (not knowing the French for "tire pressure gauge") and was told "I...am...sorry...I...just...arrived...from...Paris...and...don't...know...any...English."

This was so blatant that I lost my temper and replied, "Quelle dommage! Je parle la belle langue mais un peu", turned and walked out. The next gas station was much more hospitable, and I bought two tires there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:14 PM

LH - I don't think troll knows the difference between bi-lingualism and multiculturalism.

Canada is a multicultural nation with a bi-lingual population. If you're in Quebec, you should not expect them to cater to you if you only speak English. But, of course, most Americans expect to be catered to. Its not your language that they are reacting to, its your arrogance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:56 PM

Ouch, Hubby...

... but what Ron said...

Yers truely,

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:48 PM

Hubby--

We'll see what happens in the fall--you may want to revise your opinion in November.

As a registered Republican, I'd say there are precious few Republicans who deserve any support at this point--and from what I've seen of your grasp of any political or social issue---nobody that you support.   Interestingly, you don't even support your own president on immigration policy--he believes in a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants already in the US.

Congratulations, you're the perfect negative indicator.

Fascinating that you don't contradict my verdict on your brilliant plan to eliminate the Hezbollah threat through house to house searches by the Israeli army.

It's obvious why you're backing off--as I said, even the Israeli army itself realizes your plan is the worst possible solution.

I repeat: don't you ever think about what you advocate--or think at all?

If it weren't for the unfortunate fact that you apparently believe what you write, your postings would be good comic relief--as Peace suggests.

Sweet dreams.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:37 PM

SH: You should try your hand at humour . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

"And, by the way, how are you coming on your book--"The Emerging Republican Minority"?"


Sorry, Ron. I don't write fiction.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM

"They're taking care of the problem" Sure they are. That shows how much you know about the situation. "Hezbollah is hiding missiles and arms in civilian's (sic) homes".

So--the Israeli army is right to come into Lebanon and search every house that might have missiles?

Do you ever think about what you advocate--or think at all?

Not even the Israeli army is in favor of your brilliant plan. They realize what al-Jazeera will do with the resulting dead Lebanese civilians to inflame anti-Jewish outrage--all over the world. Not to mention the extremely substantial casualties the Israeli army itself will suffer.

But no sweat off your back--after all it isn't you or any of your family who would suffer with your wonderful plan.

This situation is actually one for the UN or the Arab League--someone who would be perceived as an honest broker by the Lebanese whose houses would be searched.

That's right, the much-despised UN--to whom Bush already owes the 2004 election--do I have to explain that yet again?

Thank God you are nowhere near the levers of power.



And, by the way, how are you coming on your book--"The Emerging Republican Minority"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:04 AM

When the only tool ya have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:48 AM

I note that you said your "wife and son are both Jewish", by the way. You didn't say that you are. So, I may have made a mistake in assuming so in my previous post. In any case, you have a personal axe to grind in the matter, which was my point. You will never understand the perfectly legitimate concerns of Muslims (just as many of them will never understand the legitimate concerns of Jews)...as long as you both keep clinging to that bitter ax you have to grind.

I, frankly, have no axe to grind in a quarrel between Jews and Muslims, but I always just naturally side with the relatively powerless and disenfranchised many instead of with the powerful few who hold military supremacy and invade whom they choose whenever they choose...and who normally kill 50 or a hundred persons for every person they lose.

That's why I come down hard on the USA and Israel for their agressive policies. They are the hammer in this conflict. The Muslims are the nail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:39 AM

THAT'S the one that Mel Brooks dropped in the movie. THAT'S IT!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:32 AM

Claymore, thou shalt not take the name of thy Ebbie in vain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM

There are some bigots and soreheads in every population, Troll. (grin) As I'm sure you are aware....

Some Quebequois are dogmatic on the subject of language, no doubt. Many others are not. Canada remains a multicultural society despite the presence of such inflexible people.

The fact that you are Jewish clearly plays a strong role in your sense of "being threatened". I understand that. If you had been born into a Muslim culture, if you were a Palestinian, then you'd be arguing from the opposite side of the coin, no doubt, and telling me (or someone) about all the horrible things the Israelis have done to YOUR people (which they have indeed)...and you'd be whitewashing all the attacks on Israelis as a legitimate defence of YOUR people against attacks by the Israelis.

In other words, you can only look at an issue from the point of view of YOUR people. That's the problem. Until people can transcend their petty tribal consciousness and be willing to walk in the other guy's shoes, not one of these bitter quarrels will ever end, and no one will score the decisive victory they seek.

If you could forget for one minute that you ARE a Jew....if Osama could forget for one minute that he IS a Muslim...and both just be "human" instead.......but I guess that's a leap that you don't find feasible, eh?

I can forget that I'm a Canadian, and just be human. No big deal. I can forget that I'm white and just be human. I don't feel bound to any religious tradition in particular or any racial profile, and I respect all of them.

What's so damn hard about doing that? That is all people have to do to end these useless wars and confrontations. Try it sometime. Instead of going on and on and on about how awful the "other guy" is, why not try and change yourself? Peace begins with you, not the other guy. People who aren't willing to change themselves have absolutely no business trying to change anyone else, nor any business pretending they are better than anybody else.

You're right, the Children of Israel didn't try to "convert" the "heathens" in the "Promised Land"...they just slaughtered them, man, woman, and child!

Gosh. I think maybe I would prefer people who try to convert, given the choice. It leaves some hope of survival for the invaded. (there's some sarcasm for you...)

How in God's name would you expect "Islamo-fascists" to take over North America??????????? It's about as unlikely as the Jehovah's Witnesses taking over Russia or koala bears taking over Antarctica, if you ask me. Heh! Yes, I regard your paranoia about them as exagerrated and totally out of context. Bizarre, in fact.

The USA has by far the largest military power in the World, and financial power to boot. The USA invades and occupies other countries at will. Israel invades and occupies other countries. They both have military superiority of a vast level over their opponents. Can you understand why their chosen targets have far more reason for paranoia than you do?

No? Well, maybe you need to be born as a Muslim, and you'd have a whole new fresh take on the situation. Then YOU would find out what it's like to be among the weakly armed, the poorly organized, and the easily massacred....under the guns and jet planes of America and Israel. You would learn the true meaning of paranoia, defeat, humiliation, and powerlessness. You might even volunteer to serve in the next suicide mission. I wouldn't be all that surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:08 AM

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan


Hmmmm...

Maybe all women are interchangable....


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:01 AM

Yes, Carol, you are correct. It is also correct to say that Hezbollah brought on the last round of warfare which started with their kidnapping of the soldiers and the rocket attacks on civilian targets.

Maybe this time they'll be successful in ending the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Israeli stranglehold on Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:38 AM

troll - Learn to read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:54 PM

LH, please explain to me how the attitude of the french speakers of Quebec reflect multi-culturalism when many of them insist that visitors must speak french and pretend to understand not one word of english.

I have experienced this and so have a lot of other people. Yjere are many Canadians who winter in Fla. and I have heard this from them as well including from a friend who is French-Canadian from Cape Breton but who now lives here in Gainesville.

I find your knowledge of the history of radical Islam - or the instance on ignoring it - to be abysmal. The Marine barracks in Lebanon, the USS Cole, just to name two, took place well before GW Bush came on the national scene. Your use of the works stupid and facist and pure ad hominem.

I hate and fear them because they are a very real threat to both me and my family. My wife and son are both Jewish. Just how long do you think they would survive if the Islamofascists took over.

The Jews, incidentally, do not try to convert others. The peoples that they killed in the old testament were enemy tribes, not simply people who refused to convert. In this respect they are unlike both Muslims and Christians.

You may continue to live in your safe and cozy little world of denial if you wish . You may continue to make prejorative statments about how I'm just like them and it's all the fault of the US and Bush and whoever else you can find to blame. That's what really matters to you, isn't it. Who can I blame so I can feel superior.

And it won't change the facts one bit. The radical Islamists are a real danger to anyone who isn't just like them in every respect. If they are willing to kill their co-religionists who are more moderate, what makes you think that you would be spared? Of course they won't bother you because they'll know that you understand how much they were provoked by the horrible American Government.

At this point, what does it matter who is to blame. If it makes you feel any better, blame me. I don't mind. I'm used to it.

BTW, some of you - Ebbie, Don, Little Hawk - really need to look up the concept of satirical comment and sarcasm.

Ebbie, the first recorded genocide that I have read about was the destruction of the city of Jericho by Joshua. The first recorded ATTEMPTED genocide ways of the Egyptians against the Jews. I'm sure that there are other cases that pre-date those. While you are looking up satire and sarcasm, learn some history as well. Read about the Fulani Jihad in sub-Saharan Africa. Then read ALL of my post and see what I said about Christian Fundamentalists.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:22 PM

Interestingly enough, I believe I read the Israelis warned Mr. Bush about exactly this point--that in the cases of Hamas and Hezbollah, democracy wasn't necessarily a panacea for Mideast problems.

But Mr. Bush, of course, knew better--he always does, doesn't he?

That's why his foreign policy is such a model for the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:57 PM

Exactly--and that's the crux of the problem. Hezbollah has arranged that any issue--their disarmament, for example--cannot be decided by a simply majority of the cabinet. And several other parties need their support.

And guess who we have to also thank for Hezbollah's very strong position in the Lebanese government? Why, it's none other than our own hero, Mr. Bush.

When Hezbollah was campaigning, a big crowd-pleaser was the assertion that the US has a plan--first Iraq, then Syria, then Hezbollah. "And we must resist"--which the Lebanese did by electing Hezbollah and a few other allied groups to the maximum allowed Shiites in Lebanon's ethnically and religiously parcelled-out government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:46 PM

"The fact is that for many Lebanese Hezbollah has been exactly that--see my post of 15 July 2006 11:19 AM on the Gaza Strip thread.


OK, point taken. However, the Hezbollah that kidnapped two soldiers and started frining rockets into Israel at civilian targets must be the action wing of the fraternal structure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:43 PM

A word in your ear, Troll: The Crusades.

Sorry. That's two words.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM

"Last I saw Hezbollah and Hamas were not fraternal clubs gathered together for the common good."


Actually, sarcasm is out of place here.

The fact is that for many Lebanese Hezbollah has been exactly that--see my post of 15 July 2006 11:19 AM on the Gaza Strip thread.

Hezbollah has a huge and very efficient network delivering social services to Lebanese--often far more efficiently than the Lebanese government--Source: Wall St Journal, 10 July 2006. This is one of the sources of its strength among the Lebanese population in general--and will vastly complicate any attempt to remove them from the Lebanese government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

And if it's the FIRST time you ever heard that Christianity was spread by the sword, Troll....then you've had your ears shut for a very, very long time!

The Jews, the Muslims, and the Christians all have a history drenched in the blood of peoples who would not willingly convert to to "the one true faith". Interestingly enough, those 3 religions all sprang from the same root...

The earliest genocide in that ancient tradition of killing people and taking their land, well described in the Bible, seems to have occurred when the Jews entered "the promised land" and exterminated its inhabitants at Jericho and a variety of other such places. Since they are praised for having done so in the Holy Book...the same Holy Book revered by the later Muslims and Christians, is it any surprise that those religions spread themselves in the same manner, by violence and conquest and land theft?

I tell you, the Israelis and their bitterest Islamic opponents are cut from the same cloth when it comes to that sort of thing. Neither of them has a thing to be proud of or self-righteous about. Neither one of them can claim to be the excusive "victim" of someone else's aggression. They are both aggressors, one against the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

"Last I saw, Hezbollah and Hamas were not fraternal clubs gathered together for the greater good"

Yes, Carol, you are correct. It is also correct to say that Hezbollah brought on the last round of warfare which started with their kidnapping of the soldiers and the rocket attacks on civilian targets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:02 PM

Troll, you said, "... that's the first time I've ever heard the statement that christianity has also been spread by the sword."

I guess you never heard of the first recorded case of genocide. That was the Holy Roman Catholic Church (the Vatican) imposing their form of Christianity on the Cathars of Southern France.

There are numerous incidents of atrocities committed in the name of Christ. It may not have been a sword but Christianity was definitely 'shoved down the throats' of many, many people, including most of Europe, Africa and the Americas. Ever heard of the Christian Brothers? Ever heard of so-called missionaries that were involved in the slave trade?

Christian Fundamentalists are no better than Islamic Fundametalists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:58 PM

Last I saw, Hezbollah and Hamas were not fraternal clubs gathered together for the greater good

Maybe not, but Hezbollah, at least, succeeded in bringing about the end of the Israeli occupation of Lebanon lo these many years ago. I consider that to be very much to the greater good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM

Troll, I don't like Islamic fundamentalism (or Christian fundamentalism either) any better than you do. But, unlike you, I do not fear it or feel obliged to live by the credo..."my culture is gonna be the one that comes out on top".

That's a stupid credo. It's a fascist credo. It's a credo that matches the worst among Islamic fundamentalists, and as I said before, that's why you dislike and fear them so much...they remind you of yourself.

I live in a country that is based on the ideal of multi-culturalism, not "my culture comes out on top". I feel enriched by the presence of many cultures here in Canada and I am not the least bit interested in going off on a holy war to defend "my culture" against someone else's culture.

That is thinking that is at least a century out of date as far as I'm concerned.

Do you think Israelis are any less arrogant or less supremacist about their culture than the Muslims who are fighting them? They're both guilty of the same sins: pride and intolerance.

I see no reason to play favorites between them. If the Islamic people had military supremacy, as Israel does, they would attack with jet bombers and tanks the way the Israelis do, not with suicide bombers and rockets, and the Israelis would be the ones doing the guerrilla fighting. That's how it works. The well-armed strike openly with high tech weapons. The poorly armed strike from the shadows, by stealth. It's always been that way.

I don't see Zionist fanatics any differently than I see Islamic fanatics. They are both hellbent on destruction, they both think God is on their side, they both consider their opponents to be "bad people who deserve no mercy" and they're both dead wrong. As I've said before, they appear to deserve each other....but the wretched civilians who get in the way don't deserve either one of them.

I'm not impressed by your paranoia about Islamic fundamentalism being a threat to the world. It wouldn't be a threat at all, had the USA not promoted and organized Islamic fundamentalists to fight the Russians in Afghanistan in the 80's, had not the USA trained them, had not the USA armed them, had not the USA persecuted the nation of Iran ever since the 1950's, and had not the USA contributed to the de-stabilization and ruination of many Islamic societies in the Middle East and aided and abetted corrupt monarchies like the Saudis for control of the oil.

It is the USA's policies and those of Israel which have produced this virulent outbreak of radical Islamic fervour worldwide, and which are continuing to do so. The USA has sewn the wind...and you are now complaining because the whirlwind rebounded upon the USA. Tough. It's like Hitler complaining in 1944...."Nobody likes me!"

Well, yeah. People don't like liars who go around conquering the world and bombing the hell out of anyone who resists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM

"Under fundamentalist Islam, you dare not criticize the government."

... same here in the land of the free ... if you are an Islamic teen expressing your vent up frustrated opinions on the western world via a chat room on the WWW and ker pow! ... some big guys coming knoicking on your door and off you go ... downtown for an infinite stay in solitary.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:51 PM

US has not inflicted a 9/11 on anyone

Troll, with all due respect, the shock and awe of the first six months of the Iraq campaign was as destructive as 9-11, relative to the environment it took place in.

It is reasonable to estimate the total deaths precipitated during the Iraq campaign since Bush's forces crossed into Iraq from Kuwait in the high tens of thousands. That does not take into account the lives ruined by injury, by the trauma of loss and by the trauma of destroying others.

It is not easy to try and estimate the degree to which the American invasion of Iraq actually precipitated the jihad in its present international scale, elevating it to a focused wide-spread effort from a small handful of extremist attacks sporadically launched. I think it is perfectly possible we were better off with the sporadic, and un-unified version. We have provided a lot of potential enemies whose efforts would otherwise have dissipated or fallen short of any actualization, with a crystallizing and unifying and energizing target. I don't think this was smart strategy.

Invading Iraq without understnading the intensely tribal and deeply rooted venom circulating among the sub-populations was unwise. Not understanding the gathering effect of placing the confrontation in one big sandbox was unwise. Not trying to address the core causes of hostility was unwise. And it is not correct, in my opinion, to simply categorize the enemy as "radical Islamisc fundamentalists" with the implication that by being in that category they are automatically dedicated to the current hostility. The fact is, I believe, that the number of Muslims now engaged in hostililty is much greater, and more focused, as a consequence of our bad diplomacy, than it ever would have been under a more intelligent, better-educated and more understanding leadership.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:32 PM

Last I saw, Hezbollah and Hamas were not fraternal clubs gathered together for the greater good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:26 PM

mos, are you talking about the kind of inspired communication and diplomacy that took place in Munich between Hitler and Atlee? If so, forget it!

Little Hawk, that's the first time I've ever heard the statement that christianity has also been spread by the sword.

Birlliant!! Absolutely brilliant. Why didn't anyone ever think of that before: that Christians are just as guilty as Muslims if not more so. Maybe someone will nominate you for a Nobel Peace prize. After all, Arrafat got one.

Getting serious for a moment, naturally I want the culture in which I live to come out on top. If it comes out on top with all your dreams for a better world intact, fine. If not, I'd rather live under our system than theirs.

For one thing, forums like this one are allowed here. Under fundamentalist Islam, you dare not criticize the government. The same would probably be true under a Fundamentalist Christian Theocracy and I don't want to live under that either.

If we could all just get along...

But we never have and probably never will unless, of course, you want the would of "Brave New World" or "1984" And please don't anyone respond with "We already live in the world of 1984". It's been worked to death and it's not true anyway.

The facts of my "historical diatribe" are accurate and simply point out what is now happening and why. All the finger pointing and "you did it too" is not going to change the facts one iota.

The whole world is, in my opinion, endangered by radical Islamist terrorism at the present time and there will be no peace anywhere by anyones definition - except theirs - until it is stopped.

You want peace? It's easy.

Surrender.

Submit to Islamic rule. Live like the Afghans under the Taliban.

No freedom, but peace.

So lets deal with the here and now and work on utopia when the present threat is gone.

troll

BTW, if anyone is going to post about how America is the biggest threat etc, PLEASE have some hard facts available. To the best of my knowledge, the US has not inflicted a 9/11 on anyone.

t


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:24 PM

As I've noted before, SH, you only notice crime and mass murder when it is committed by people you already don't like! Not when it is committed by the USA or Israel.

You've got tunnel vision, and it's making you so intellectually lazy that it's hardly worth talking with you about anything political.

What on Earth could possibly, for instance, give you the notion that I am opposed to the Allies having taken military action against Germany, Italy, and Japan in WWII????? How did you put that notion together from anything I've ever said? LOL!

Hitler, you see, launched pre-emptive wars against small countries. He and Mussolini sponsored a fascist war in Spain against its elected government....rather like the USA has sponsored coups and dirty wars and wars by proxy against countries like Chile, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicarauga, and so on.

The Japanese launched pre-emptive wars against the Chinese, the British, the Dutch, and the Americans...the same thing that Bush felt free to do in Iraq, but at least the Japanese had the guts to fight people who could really fight back effectively.

Hitler launched a pre-emptive war against Poland in '39, and the German people were under the impression that he did it to protect German civilians against Polish attack!.

That's the power of propaganda. What you don't realize is that Bush has you fooled just like Hitler had the Germans fooled.

You're on the wrong side this time, SH. I know that's a hard pill to swallow, but you are. What we are seeing, if Bush continues to escalate the situation in the Middle East, is a world conflict...and if there is enough left to hold a new Nuremberg Trial after it, it will be American leaders who are on trial there.

It's much bigger than a fight between Islamic radicals and the west. The Islamic peoples are just the excuse...they are the "Jews" in Mr Bush's plans for world domination through controlling oil and achieving worldwide military supremacy. They are the scapegoat.

And you're enough of a putz to believe it, aren't you? Oh, they'll fight, all right...as best they can. And others will fight too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM

"Diplomacy is a disguised war, in which states seek to gain by barter and intrigue, by the cleverness of arts, the objectives which they would have to gain more clumsily by means of war."

Randolph Bourne


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM

Bush's idea of diplomacy is to say, "Do what we tell you to do and then we'll agree to talk about it!" To which Iran and North Korea respond, "If we have to do what you say before you'll talk with us about it, then what's the point of talking about it? Go screw yourself!"

To that sort of "negotiation," that sounds like a reasonable response to me.

Diplomacy is a bit more sophisticated than that, and it's the major reason that there have not been many more wars than there have been.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:44 PM

The United States and Israel are both aggressor nations in the Middle East, Hubster, having killed far more civilians in that part of the world than Islamic extremists have killed anywhere in the world.

Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah would not even exist were it not for the naked aggression visited upon the peoples of the Middle East by the United States and Israel. Those groups are a response to that aggression, not the cause of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM

Jaw jaw is better than war war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

Hubby:

In your anxiety to exercise your righteous militant wrath, over which you have drawn your hasty rationalizations about the black and white facts of the matter, you have reached some very straight and very shallow conclusions.

Study up on the violence that has been contained or extinguished altogether by diplomacy, rather than a resort to violence. Study up on the chain of consequences of teaching others to act on hatred, or to act in violence.

I think you will find that most times, it is a piss-poor alternative compared to creative diplomacy and inspired communication.

Unfortunately, the gang of militant and imperialistic barbarians you support doesn't know from communication of any real sort, and are so wrapped up in the same kind of specious rationalizations that they couldn't be inspired if you punched them in the solar plexus.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:12 PM

Oh, I don't know. We didn't cremate the Soviet Union; we waited and it collapsed because it was internally corrupt (no, Reagan DIDN'T do it).


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