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BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...

GUEST 23 Jul 06 - 01:03 AM
Amos 23 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM
Greg F. 22 Jul 06 - 09:00 AM
Little Hawk 21 Jul 06 - 10:09 PM
Bobert 21 Jul 06 - 08:49 PM
Ebbie 21 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM
Troll 21 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM
dianavan 21 Jul 06 - 03:06 AM
Ebbie 21 Jul 06 - 01:19 AM
Troll 20 Jul 06 - 11:27 PM
Rapparee 20 Jul 06 - 09:03 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 19 Jul 06 - 07:35 PM
dianavan 19 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM
Rapparee 19 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM
dianavan 18 Jul 06 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 18 Jul 06 - 09:56 PM
Ron Davies 18 Jul 06 - 09:48 PM
Peace 18 Jul 06 - 05:37 PM
Susu's Hubby 18 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM
Ron Davies 18 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM
Peace 18 Jul 06 - 03:04 AM
Little Hawk 18 Jul 06 - 02:48 AM
Peace 18 Jul 06 - 02:39 AM
Ebbie 18 Jul 06 - 02:32 AM
Little Hawk 18 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM
CarolC 18 Jul 06 - 02:08 AM
CarolC 18 Jul 06 - 02:01 AM
dianavan 18 Jul 06 - 01:38 AM
Troll 17 Jul 06 - 11:54 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jul 06 - 11:22 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jul 06 - 10:57 PM
Peace 17 Jul 06 - 10:46 PM
Don Firth 17 Jul 06 - 10:43 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM
Peace 17 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM
dianavan 17 Jul 06 - 07:02 PM
CarolC 17 Jul 06 - 05:58 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM
number 6 17 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM
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Troll 17 Jul 06 - 04:26 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jul 06 - 04:24 PM
Peace 17 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM
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CarolC 17 Jul 06 - 03:44 PM
Peace 17 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM
Amos 17 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM
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Susu's Hubby 17 Jul 06 - 02:44 PM
Peace 16 Jul 06 - 11:20 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 01:03 AM

"NASA climate scientist James E. Hansen was following the space agency's stated mission. For years, his reports, lectures and interviews have helped people "understand and protect our home planet."

But his urgency about global warming in a December lecture earned him a threat of "dire consequences" for speaking out. After he advocated a remedy the Bush administration opposed, the NASA public affairs department decided to restrict his media interviews and prescreen his lectures."

From the www


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 12:06 AM

Bush changes NASA mission statement - no longer interested in protecting our home planet
by John in DC - 7/22/2006 08:38:00 PM

After having given the shaft to blacks, women, Latinos, gays, people who have Parkinsons and Alzheimers, the budget, the environment, the military, veterans, New Orleans, Iraq and oh so many more, now they're giving the shaft to the entire planet Earth.

NASA quietly had its mission statement changed last February by the White House, who deleted the phrase "to understand and protect our home planet." NASA scientists were surprised to learn of the change. "Without it, these scientists say, there will be far less incentive to pursue projects to improve understanding of terrestrial problems like climate change caused by greenhouse gas emissions."

As we quoted Charles Barkley the other day, "I used to be a Republican, before they lost their minds."

http://americablog.blogspot.com/


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Jul 06 - 09:00 AM

even if its nonsense.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:09 PM

I understand your viewpoint, Troll...although we see it differently. I don't see the USA as a "paper tiger" at all, and I'd be very surprised if anyone did, because the USA is an exceedingly aggressive nation which is in the habit of bombing and invading places, and has been for a long time, not because those places are a real threat to the USA, but because they are an opportunity to control markets and resources...if they will just surrender themselves to America's complete control willingly.

If not, vilify them, embargo them, sanction them, threaten them, bomb them, and invade them.

That's classic big power imperialism. It's been practiced by every major power...lately most notably by the USA.

That's not a paper tiger, it's a ravening beast.

But I know we won't agree on that. Well, it's okay. We don't have to agree on everything, after all.

You figure the USA is protecting you, so naturally you are in support of their foreign policy. I understand that, and I respect your right to have that opinion if it makes sense to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 08:49 PM

Well, hey, self defense is one thing and bullyin' is another...

And what the heck is wrong with negotiation???

At some point all wars come to an end and guess what??? It all comes down to talkin' terms... So why go fightin' 'um if you have choices???

What I resent is a foriegn policy that is based 'round bullyin' and threatenin' folks 'er demandin' that adversaries march to yer orders before negotiatin' with 'um...

This is what we've had with Bush and guess what, part 2???...

...It ain't workin'... All it has done is rile folks up and start more wars...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 10:12 AM

Ahhhh. That feels better.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:07 AM

Ebbie, I appologize. As Pogo would have said "I is covered with rue."

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 03:06 AM

Ebbie - He is not putting you on. He is very, very confused.

He is also, "...somewhat prone to stereotyping."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 06 - 01:19 AM

This is getting bizarre. Troll, are you putting me on or do you really NOT notice that it is NOT I who is saying the things you respond to?

THIS one is EBBIE. THAT one is DIANAVAN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 11:27 PM

Ebbie, I know the difference between bi-lingual and multi-cultural. I do not believe that Canada comes under the definition of Bi-lingual. To be that, a majority of the citizens would have to speak two languages, in this case, English and French and I don't think that this is the case.

I speak a little French, Spanish, German and Japanese. When I traveled in Russia and Mongolia a few years ago, I learned not only a little Russian and Mongolian but also to read the Cyrillic alphabet.

I know what arrogance looks like too. I have traveled extensively in my life and have never been treated like I was treated in both France and Quebec. I did not demand anything. I asked for a little understanding because of the differences in language.
What I got was something else. I do not say that all French speakers treat non-french speakers the way that I was treated. But I have heard too many people - and not just Americans - talk about the complete distain with which they were treated because they were not fluent in French.
I do not demand to be catered to, at home or abroad, but I do expect that other people treat me with some small amount of respect. I will afford them the same courtesy.

You seem to be quite intolerant of people who don't agree with you and somewhat prone to stereotyping. It does not make me want to try to understand your point of view.

LH, you are right. I am not Jewish.

Call me paranoid, but when a group of people, whatever their reasons, say that their aim is the destruction of the State of Israel and the extermination of the Jews, I get just a little concerned.

So, yes, it's personal. I guess that I'm just not civilized enough to have any fellow feeling for someone who would kill my family if he had the chance, regardless of how justified he might think himself.

If you want to try to negotiate with such people, feel free. But don't put me down because I fear them and their stated policies. I will defend my family if attacked and I will try to neutralize those who threaten my family.

Please remember that it has only been in the last 60 years that the Jews have had any power to retaliate against their attackers. I think that most Jews are well aware of what it's like to be the poor and opressed and they have sworn "Never Again".

As far as radical Islamists taking over North America, remember that the aim of terrorists is to destabilize the government to such an extent that the people lose all confidence in it's ability to protect them. So the people overthrow or elect a government that will be more amenable to accepting the demands of the terorists and , gradually, they take over, either by proxy or by actually getting their people elected to posttions of power.

A pipe dream? Consider Mao. Consider present-day Spain. Sure, we've got the physical power, but if we won't use it, it's useless.

As I see it, that's what the Islamists are counting on; that the US is a paper tiger who will negotiate rather than fight or will try to buy off enemies with promises of aid etc. And then the aid money is used to outfit and train more terrorists.

Read "Danegeld" by Kipling.

We are in a similar situation today, trying to buy off people who use cease-fires to regroup and resupply and who regard negotiation as a sign of weakness.

I know that I'll never convince you that my attitude has any basis in reality and I hope and pray that we never find ourselves in a situation that will prove its validity.

But I'm not betting the farm on it.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 20 Jul 06 - 09:03 AM

No, I do not judge all Quebecois by one incident anymore than I judge anyone by such. I have had great times and good craic in both Quebec, Montreal, St. Jean Port Jolie, Mont Tremblant, St. Jovite, and other places. I do find some of the cultural differences between France and Quebec intriguing, like stopsigns reading "Stop" in France and "Arret" in Quebec. Also, when the incident I related happened it was during one of Quebec's periodic secessionist threats.

As for bilingualism -- there are a LOT of places and things in the US where Spanish is spoken or printed even though the US is not (officially) bi-lingual. Even in my Library....

Of course, in this town we also have Korean, Flemish, ASL, Vietnamese, Shoshone, French, German, and Greek speakers -- to name the more common languages you might run into -- in addition to Spanish. And I can muddle through in Spanish and do a little better in French. (I'm fluent in both Profane and Obscene, however, and in more languages than just three.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 07:35 PM

When I travel to any country whose language I don't speak, I make a point of learning one sentence in that language.

Please forgive me. I do not speak "(local language)". Do you speak English please?

I have never had a rude reply, and mostly they have gone to extraordinary lengths to communicate.

One Greek policeman called his station for an interpreter and conducted a three way radio conversation lasting over twenty minutes just to help me find a shop that could supply parts for my caravan.

I can say that sentence in eight languages, including Japanese.

It's all about attitudes, and they appreciate it when you take the trouble to try.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 12:47 PM

Rapaire - Reverse the situation. What if someone from Quebec, visiting the U.S. asked for a tire pressure gauge in French? The gas station attendant might reply,
"I...am...sorry...I...just...arrived...from...England...and...don't...know...any...French".

The point is that Quebec is a French speaking Province and thats why Canada is bi-lingual. If you can't speak French, you might find making your way around a bit more difficult. I don't think you can judge the people of Quebec by the comment of a gas station attendant. As far as I know, your voice might have sounded demanding to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 19 Jul 06 - 09:42 AM

Uh-huh. Such as the time in Montreal when I asked for a tire gauge in english (not knowing the French for "tire pressure gauge") and was told "I...am...sorry...I...just...arrived...from...Paris...and...don't...know...any...English."

This was so blatant that I lost my temper and replied, "Quelle dommage! Je parle la belle langue mais un peu", turned and walked out. The next gas station was much more hospitable, and I bought two tires there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 10:14 PM

LH - I don't think troll knows the difference between bi-lingualism and multiculturalism.

Canada is a multicultural nation with a bi-lingual population. If you're in Quebec, you should not expect them to cater to you if you only speak English. But, of course, most Americans expect to be catered to. Its not your language that they are reacting to, its your arrogance.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:56 PM

Ouch, Hubby...

... but what Ron said...

Yers truely,

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 09:48 PM

Hubby--

We'll see what happens in the fall--you may want to revise your opinion in November.

As a registered Republican, I'd say there are precious few Republicans who deserve any support at this point--and from what I've seen of your grasp of any political or social issue---nobody that you support.   Interestingly, you don't even support your own president on immigration policy--he believes in a path to citizenship for illegal immigrants already in the US.

Congratulations, you're the perfect negative indicator.

Fascinating that you don't contradict my verdict on your brilliant plan to eliminate the Hezbollah threat through house to house searches by the Israeli army.

It's obvious why you're backing off--as I said, even the Israeli army itself realizes your plan is the worst possible solution.

I repeat: don't you ever think about what you advocate--or think at all?

If it weren't for the unfortunate fact that you apparently believe what you write, your postings would be good comic relief--as Peace suggests.

Sweet dreams.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:37 PM

SH: You should try your hand at humour . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 05:33 PM

"And, by the way, how are you coming on your book--"The Emerging Republican Minority"?"


Sorry, Ron. I don't write fiction.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 07:31 AM

"They're taking care of the problem" Sure they are. That shows how much you know about the situation. "Hezbollah is hiding missiles and arms in civilian's (sic) homes".

So--the Israeli army is right to come into Lebanon and search every house that might have missiles?

Do you ever think about what you advocate--or think at all?

Not even the Israeli army is in favor of your brilliant plan. They realize what al-Jazeera will do with the resulting dead Lebanese civilians to inflame anti-Jewish outrage--all over the world. Not to mention the extremely substantial casualties the Israeli army itself will suffer.

But no sweat off your back--after all it isn't you or any of your family who would suffer with your wonderful plan.

This situation is actually one for the UN or the Arab League--someone who would be perceived as an honest broker by the Lebanese whose houses would be searched.

That's right, the much-despised UN--to whom Bush already owes the 2004 election--do I have to explain that yet again?

Thank God you are nowhere near the levers of power.



And, by the way, how are you coming on your book--"The Emerging Republican Minority"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 03:04 AM

When the only tool ya have is a hammer, every problem looks like a nail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:48 AM

I note that you said your "wife and son are both Jewish", by the way. You didn't say that you are. So, I may have made a mistake in assuming so in my previous post. In any case, you have a personal axe to grind in the matter, which was my point. You will never understand the perfectly legitimate concerns of Muslims (just as many of them will never understand the legitimate concerns of Jews)...as long as you both keep clinging to that bitter ax you have to grind.

I, frankly, have no axe to grind in a quarrel between Jews and Muslims, but I always just naturally side with the relatively powerless and disenfranchised many instead of with the powerful few who hold military supremacy and invade whom they choose whenever they choose...and who normally kill 50 or a hundred persons for every person they lose.

That's why I come down hard on the USA and Israel for their agressive policies. They are the hammer in this conflict. The Muslims are the nail.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:39 AM

THAT'S the one that Mel Brooks dropped in the movie. THAT'S IT!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:32 AM

Claymore, thou shalt not take the name of thy Ebbie in vain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:12 AM

There are some bigots and soreheads in every population, Troll. (grin) As I'm sure you are aware....

Some Quebequois are dogmatic on the subject of language, no doubt. Many others are not. Canada remains a multicultural society despite the presence of such inflexible people.

The fact that you are Jewish clearly plays a strong role in your sense of "being threatened". I understand that. If you had been born into a Muslim culture, if you were a Palestinian, then you'd be arguing from the opposite side of the coin, no doubt, and telling me (or someone) about all the horrible things the Israelis have done to YOUR people (which they have indeed)...and you'd be whitewashing all the attacks on Israelis as a legitimate defence of YOUR people against attacks by the Israelis.

In other words, you can only look at an issue from the point of view of YOUR people. That's the problem. Until people can transcend their petty tribal consciousness and be willing to walk in the other guy's shoes, not one of these bitter quarrels will ever end, and no one will score the decisive victory they seek.

If you could forget for one minute that you ARE a Jew....if Osama could forget for one minute that he IS a Muslim...and both just be "human" instead.......but I guess that's a leap that you don't find feasible, eh?

I can forget that I'm a Canadian, and just be human. No big deal. I can forget that I'm white and just be human. I don't feel bound to any religious tradition in particular or any racial profile, and I respect all of them.

What's so damn hard about doing that? That is all people have to do to end these useless wars and confrontations. Try it sometime. Instead of going on and on and on about how awful the "other guy" is, why not try and change yourself? Peace begins with you, not the other guy. People who aren't willing to change themselves have absolutely no business trying to change anyone else, nor any business pretending they are better than anybody else.

You're right, the Children of Israel didn't try to "convert" the "heathens" in the "Promised Land"...they just slaughtered them, man, woman, and child!

Gosh. I think maybe I would prefer people who try to convert, given the choice. It leaves some hope of survival for the invaded. (there's some sarcasm for you...)

How in God's name would you expect "Islamo-fascists" to take over North America??????????? It's about as unlikely as the Jehovah's Witnesses taking over Russia or koala bears taking over Antarctica, if you ask me. Heh! Yes, I regard your paranoia about them as exagerrated and totally out of context. Bizarre, in fact.

The USA has by far the largest military power in the World, and financial power to boot. The USA invades and occupies other countries at will. Israel invades and occupies other countries. They both have military superiority of a vast level over their opponents. Can you understand why their chosen targets have far more reason for paranoia than you do?

No? Well, maybe you need to be born as a Muslim, and you'd have a whole new fresh take on the situation. Then YOU would find out what it's like to be among the weakly armed, the poorly organized, and the easily massacred....under the guns and jet planes of America and Israel. You would learn the true meaning of paranoia, defeat, humiliation, and powerlessness. You might even volunteer to serve in the next suicide mission. I wouldn't be all that surprised.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:08 AM

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan

Ebbie

dianavan


Hmmmm...

Maybe all women are interchangable....


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 02:01 AM

Yes, Carol, you are correct. It is also correct to say that Hezbollah brought on the last round of warfare which started with their kidnapping of the soldiers and the rocket attacks on civilian targets.

Maybe this time they'll be successful in ending the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and Israeli stranglehold on Gaza.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 06 - 01:38 AM

troll - Learn to read.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:54 PM

LH, please explain to me how the attitude of the french speakers of Quebec reflect multi-culturalism when many of them insist that visitors must speak french and pretend to understand not one word of english.

I have experienced this and so have a lot of other people. Yjere are many Canadians who winter in Fla. and I have heard this from them as well including from a friend who is French-Canadian from Cape Breton but who now lives here in Gainesville.

I find your knowledge of the history of radical Islam - or the instance on ignoring it - to be abysmal. The Marine barracks in Lebanon, the USS Cole, just to name two, took place well before GW Bush came on the national scene. Your use of the works stupid and facist and pure ad hominem.

I hate and fear them because they are a very real threat to both me and my family. My wife and son are both Jewish. Just how long do you think they would survive if the Islamofascists took over.

The Jews, incidentally, do not try to convert others. The peoples that they killed in the old testament were enemy tribes, not simply people who refused to convert. In this respect they are unlike both Muslims and Christians.

You may continue to live in your safe and cozy little world of denial if you wish . You may continue to make prejorative statments about how I'm just like them and it's all the fault of the US and Bush and whoever else you can find to blame. That's what really matters to you, isn't it. Who can I blame so I can feel superior.

And it won't change the facts one bit. The radical Islamists are a real danger to anyone who isn't just like them in every respect. If they are willing to kill their co-religionists who are more moderate, what makes you think that you would be spared? Of course they won't bother you because they'll know that you understand how much they were provoked by the horrible American Government.

At this point, what does it matter who is to blame. If it makes you feel any better, blame me. I don't mind. I'm used to it.

BTW, some of you - Ebbie, Don, Little Hawk - really need to look up the concept of satirical comment and sarcasm.

Ebbie, the first recorded genocide that I have read about was the destruction of the city of Jericho by Joshua. The first recorded ATTEMPTED genocide ways of the Egyptians against the Jews. I'm sure that there are other cases that pre-date those. While you are looking up satire and sarcasm, learn some history as well. Read about the Fulani Jihad in sub-Saharan Africa. Then read ALL of my post and see what I said about Christian Fundamentalists.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 11:22 PM

Interestingly enough, I believe I read the Israelis warned Mr. Bush about exactly this point--that in the cases of Hamas and Hezbollah, democracy wasn't necessarily a panacea for Mideast problems.

But Mr. Bush, of course, knew better--he always does, doesn't he?

That's why his foreign policy is such a model for the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:57 PM

Exactly--and that's the crux of the problem. Hezbollah has arranged that any issue--their disarmament, for example--cannot be decided by a simply majority of the cabinet. And several other parties need their support.

And guess who we have to also thank for Hezbollah's very strong position in the Lebanese government? Why, it's none other than our own hero, Mr. Bush.

When Hezbollah was campaigning, a big crowd-pleaser was the assertion that the US has a plan--first Iraq, then Syria, then Hezbollah. "And we must resist"--which the Lebanese did by electing Hezbollah and a few other allied groups to the maximum allowed Shiites in Lebanon's ethnically and religiously parcelled-out government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:46 PM

"The fact is that for many Lebanese Hezbollah has been exactly that--see my post of 15 July 2006 11:19 AM on the Gaza Strip thread.


OK, point taken. However, the Hezbollah that kidnapped two soldiers and started frining rockets into Israel at civilian targets must be the action wing of the fraternal structure.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 10:43 PM

A word in your ear, Troll: The Crusades.

Sorry. That's two words.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 09:36 PM

"Last I saw Hezbollah and Hamas were not fraternal clubs gathered together for the common good."


Actually, sarcasm is out of place here.

The fact is that for many Lebanese Hezbollah has been exactly that--see my post of 15 July 2006 11:19 AM on the Gaza Strip thread.

Hezbollah has a huge and very efficient network delivering social services to Lebanese--often far more efficiently than the Lebanese government--Source: Wall St Journal, 10 July 2006. This is one of the sources of its strength among the Lebanese population in general--and will vastly complicate any attempt to remove them from the Lebanese government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:21 PM

And if it's the FIRST time you ever heard that Christianity was spread by the sword, Troll....then you've had your ears shut for a very, very long time!

The Jews, the Muslims, and the Christians all have a history drenched in the blood of peoples who would not willingly convert to to "the one true faith". Interestingly enough, those 3 religions all sprang from the same root...

The earliest genocide in that ancient tradition of killing people and taking their land, well described in the Bible, seems to have occurred when the Jews entered "the promised land" and exterminated its inhabitants at Jericho and a variety of other such places. Since they are praised for having done so in the Holy Book...the same Holy Book revered by the later Muslims and Christians, is it any surprise that those religions spread themselves in the same manner, by violence and conquest and land theft?

I tell you, the Israelis and their bitterest Islamic opponents are cut from the same cloth when it comes to that sort of thing. Neither of them has a thing to be proud of or self-righteous about. Neither one of them can claim to be the excusive "victim" of someone else's aggression. They are both aggressors, one against the other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:16 PM

"Last I saw, Hezbollah and Hamas were not fraternal clubs gathered together for the greater good"

Yes, Carol, you are correct. It is also correct to say that Hezbollah brought on the last round of warfare which started with their kidnapping of the soldiers and the rocket attacks on civilian targets.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 07:02 PM

Troll, you said, "... that's the first time I've ever heard the statement that christianity has also been spread by the sword."

I guess you never heard of the first recorded case of genocide. That was the Holy Roman Catholic Church (the Vatican) imposing their form of Christianity on the Cathars of Southern France.

There are numerous incidents of atrocities committed in the name of Christ. It may not have been a sword but Christianity was definitely 'shoved down the throats' of many, many people, including most of Europe, Africa and the Americas. Ever heard of the Christian Brothers? Ever heard of so-called missionaries that were involved in the slave trade?

Christian Fundamentalists are no better than Islamic Fundametalists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:58 PM

Last I saw, Hezbollah and Hamas were not fraternal clubs gathered together for the greater good

Maybe not, but Hezbollah, at least, succeeded in bringing about the end of the Israeli occupation of Lebanon lo these many years ago. I consider that to be very much to the greater good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 05:21 PM

Troll, I don't like Islamic fundamentalism (or Christian fundamentalism either) any better than you do. But, unlike you, I do not fear it or feel obliged to live by the credo..."my culture is gonna be the one that comes out on top".

That's a stupid credo. It's a fascist credo. It's a credo that matches the worst among Islamic fundamentalists, and as I said before, that's why you dislike and fear them so much...they remind you of yourself.

I live in a country that is based on the ideal of multi-culturalism, not "my culture comes out on top". I feel enriched by the presence of many cultures here in Canada and I am not the least bit interested in going off on a holy war to defend "my culture" against someone else's culture.

That is thinking that is at least a century out of date as far as I'm concerned.

Do you think Israelis are any less arrogant or less supremacist about their culture than the Muslims who are fighting them? They're both guilty of the same sins: pride and intolerance.

I see no reason to play favorites between them. If the Islamic people had military supremacy, as Israel does, they would attack with jet bombers and tanks the way the Israelis do, not with suicide bombers and rockets, and the Israelis would be the ones doing the guerrilla fighting. That's how it works. The well-armed strike openly with high tech weapons. The poorly armed strike from the shadows, by stealth. It's always been that way.

I don't see Zionist fanatics any differently than I see Islamic fanatics. They are both hellbent on destruction, they both think God is on their side, they both consider their opponents to be "bad people who deserve no mercy" and they're both dead wrong. As I've said before, they appear to deserve each other....but the wretched civilians who get in the way don't deserve either one of them.

I'm not impressed by your paranoia about Islamic fundamentalism being a threat to the world. It wouldn't be a threat at all, had the USA not promoted and organized Islamic fundamentalists to fight the Russians in Afghanistan in the 80's, had not the USA trained them, had not the USA armed them, had not the USA persecuted the nation of Iran ever since the 1950's, and had not the USA contributed to the de-stabilization and ruination of many Islamic societies in the Middle East and aided and abetted corrupt monarchies like the Saudis for control of the oil.

It is the USA's policies and those of Israel which have produced this virulent outbreak of radical Islamic fervour worldwide, and which are continuing to do so. The USA has sewn the wind...and you are now complaining because the whirlwind rebounded upon the USA. Tough. It's like Hitler complaining in 1944...."Nobody likes me!"

Well, yeah. People don't like liars who go around conquering the world and bombing the hell out of anyone who resists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: number 6
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:56 PM

"Under fundamentalist Islam, you dare not criticize the government."

... same here in the land of the free ... if you are an Islamic teen expressing your vent up frustrated opinions on the western world via a chat room on the WWW and ker pow! ... some big guys coming knoicking on your door and off you go ... downtown for an infinite stay in solitary.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:51 PM

US has not inflicted a 9/11 on anyone

Troll, with all due respect, the shock and awe of the first six months of the Iraq campaign was as destructive as 9-11, relative to the environment it took place in.

It is reasonable to estimate the total deaths precipitated during the Iraq campaign since Bush's forces crossed into Iraq from Kuwait in the high tens of thousands. That does not take into account the lives ruined by injury, by the trauma of loss and by the trauma of destroying others.

It is not easy to try and estimate the degree to which the American invasion of Iraq actually precipitated the jihad in its present international scale, elevating it to a focused wide-spread effort from a small handful of extremist attacks sporadically launched. I think it is perfectly possible we were better off with the sporadic, and un-unified version. We have provided a lot of potential enemies whose efforts would otherwise have dissipated or fallen short of any actualization, with a crystallizing and unifying and energizing target. I don't think this was smart strategy.

Invading Iraq without understnading the intensely tribal and deeply rooted venom circulating among the sub-populations was unwise. Not understanding the gathering effect of placing the confrontation in one big sandbox was unwise. Not trying to address the core causes of hostility was unwise. And it is not correct, in my opinion, to simply categorize the enemy as "radical Islamisc fundamentalists" with the implication that by being in that category they are automatically dedicated to the current hostility. The fact is, I believe, that the number of Muslims now engaged in hostililty is much greater, and more focused, as a consequence of our bad diplomacy, than it ever would have been under a more intelligent, better-educated and more understanding leadership.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:32 PM

Last I saw, Hezbollah and Hamas were not fraternal clubs gathered together for the greater good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:26 PM

mos, are you talking about the kind of inspired communication and diplomacy that took place in Munich between Hitler and Atlee? If so, forget it!

Little Hawk, that's the first time I've ever heard the statement that christianity has also been spread by the sword.

Birlliant!! Absolutely brilliant. Why didn't anyone ever think of that before: that Christians are just as guilty as Muslims if not more so. Maybe someone will nominate you for a Nobel Peace prize. After all, Arrafat got one.

Getting serious for a moment, naturally I want the culture in which I live to come out on top. If it comes out on top with all your dreams for a better world intact, fine. If not, I'd rather live under our system than theirs.

For one thing, forums like this one are allowed here. Under fundamentalist Islam, you dare not criticize the government. The same would probably be true under a Fundamentalist Christian Theocracy and I don't want to live under that either.

If we could all just get along...

But we never have and probably never will unless, of course, you want the would of "Brave New World" or "1984" And please don't anyone respond with "We already live in the world of 1984". It's been worked to death and it's not true anyway.

The facts of my "historical diatribe" are accurate and simply point out what is now happening and why. All the finger pointing and "you did it too" is not going to change the facts one iota.

The whole world is, in my opinion, endangered by radical Islamist terrorism at the present time and there will be no peace anywhere by anyones definition - except theirs - until it is stopped.

You want peace? It's easy.

Surrender.

Submit to Islamic rule. Live like the Afghans under the Taliban.

No freedom, but peace.

So lets deal with the here and now and work on utopia when the present threat is gone.

troll

BTW, if anyone is going to post about how America is the biggest threat etc, PLEASE have some hard facts available. To the best of my knowledge, the US has not inflicted a 9/11 on anyone.

t


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 04:24 PM

As I've noted before, SH, you only notice crime and mass murder when it is committed by people you already don't like! Not when it is committed by the USA or Israel.

You've got tunnel vision, and it's making you so intellectually lazy that it's hardly worth talking with you about anything political.

What on Earth could possibly, for instance, give you the notion that I am opposed to the Allies having taken military action against Germany, Italy, and Japan in WWII????? How did you put that notion together from anything I've ever said? LOL!

Hitler, you see, launched pre-emptive wars against small countries. He and Mussolini sponsored a fascist war in Spain against its elected government....rather like the USA has sponsored coups and dirty wars and wars by proxy against countries like Chile, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, Nicarauga, and so on.

The Japanese launched pre-emptive wars against the Chinese, the British, the Dutch, and the Americans...the same thing that Bush felt free to do in Iraq, but at least the Japanese had the guts to fight people who could really fight back effectively.

Hitler launched a pre-emptive war against Poland in '39, and the German people were under the impression that he did it to protect German civilians against Polish attack!.

That's the power of propaganda. What you don't realize is that Bush has you fooled just like Hitler had the Germans fooled.

You're on the wrong side this time, SH. I know that's a hard pill to swallow, but you are. What we are seeing, if Bush continues to escalate the situation in the Middle East, is a world conflict...and if there is enough left to hold a new Nuremberg Trial after it, it will be American leaders who are on trial there.

It's much bigger than a fight between Islamic radicals and the west. The Islamic peoples are just the excuse...they are the "Jews" in Mr Bush's plans for world domination through controlling oil and achieving worldwide military supremacy. They are the scapegoat.

And you're enough of a putz to believe it, aren't you? Oh, they'll fight, all right...as best they can. And others will fight too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:53 PM

"Diplomacy is a disguised war, in which states seek to gain by barter and intrigue, by the cleverness of arts, the objectives which they would have to gain more clumsily by means of war."

Randolph Bourne


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:45 PM

Bush's idea of diplomacy is to say, "Do what we tell you to do and then we'll agree to talk about it!" To which Iran and North Korea respond, "If we have to do what you say before you'll talk with us about it, then what's the point of talking about it? Go screw yourself!"

To that sort of "negotiation," that sounds like a reasonable response to me.

Diplomacy is a bit more sophisticated than that, and it's the major reason that there have not been many more wars than there have been.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:44 PM

The United States and Israel are both aggressor nations in the Middle East, Hubster, having killed far more civilians in that part of the world than Islamic extremists have killed anywhere in the world.

Groups like Hamas and Hezbollah would not even exist were it not for the naked aggression visited upon the peoples of the Middle East by the United States and Israel. Those groups are a response to that aggression, not the cause of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:28 PM

Jaw jaw is better than war war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:25 PM

Hubby:

In your anxiety to exercise your righteous militant wrath, over which you have drawn your hasty rationalizations about the black and white facts of the matter, you have reached some very straight and very shallow conclusions.

Study up on the violence that has been contained or extinguished altogether by diplomacy, rather than a resort to violence. Study up on the chain of consequences of teaching others to act on hatred, or to act in violence.

I think you will find that most times, it is a piss-poor alternative compared to creative diplomacy and inspired communication.

Unfortunately, the gang of militant and imperialistic barbarians you support doesn't know from communication of any real sort, and are so wrapped up in the same kind of specious rationalizations that they couldn't be inspired if you punched them in the solar plexus.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 03:12 PM

Oh, I don't know. We didn't cremate the Soviet Union; we waited and it collapsed because it was internally corrupt (no, Reagan DIDN'T do it).


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 17 Jul 06 - 02:44 PM

"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains"


That's not a promise, it's a threat. Matter of fact, it's a threat to the whole world. When will the USA, which claims the right to launch pre-emptive wars on countries that have no WMD, also claim the right to make a unilateral nuclear first strike on a non-nuclear country? It has already strongly suggested that it has the right to do so! When it does, the face of the aggressor will be fully revealed to the whole world, and we will be on the verge of a world conflict in which the USA will find itself virtually without allies.

No one will be safe anywhere in such a conflict."


The above was posted by Little Hawk.

So since Truman was the one that gave us that little tidbit, does that mean that his vision of no Nazi's, no imperialistic Japanese and no Italian Fascist was wrong? FDR was also wrong? Do you think that we should have let the Nazi's exterminate the jews?

Troll is right. You can't negotiate with the Islamic Fundamentalist because of their heartfelt feeling of Israel must be wiped from the face of the earth. Just as we couldn't negotiate with Hitler, Hirohito or Mussolini. Hell....we tried to get along with them but to no avail....they wanted war. That is exactly what we gave them. The same thing is happening now with the Islamic fundamentalist.

We gave peace a chance....

They didn't want it.

So we're giving them what they do want.

Now they are crying to the UN and winning the hearts of the left in the world.

Don't forget. Israel has been very patient over the last few years. They've endured suicide bombing after suicide bombing. They still came to the table ready to talk time after time after time.

The kidnapping of their soldiers by Hamas and Hezbollah was the straw that broke the camel's back. They can't wait anymore. They know that their enemies don't want peace. Why waste anymore time?

They're taking care of the problem. They are trying to surround Hezbollah. Civilians in Lebanon are in the way. Some will get killed. Hezbollah is hiding missiles and arms in civilian's homes. People that support Hezbollah. This is no different than what Saddam did by hiding and storing weapons in schools and mosques and even in private homes.

This is where the message of "either you stand with the rest of the world or you stand with the terrorists" phrase comes into play.
And yes there are innocent civilians being killed. It's tragic. If there is any way it could be avoided then it should. But it's happening on both sides. Why are people just hearing about what's happening in Lebanon and not what's happening in Haifa with Hesbollah aiming and firing rockets indiscriminately into the city? Let's remember all of the innocent civilians that were killed whenever suicide bombers set off their payloads in crowded restaurants and public trans. buses. Does that deserve any condemnation? You wouldn't think so by reading the above posts.

Peace always deserves a chance.

But when one party doesn't want it, the only game you can't afford to play is the waiting game.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:20 PM

This one kills off brain cells . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:09 PM

LH, I know you love history (or specifically the study of it). I just tripped over this: "ORIGIN: British newspapers called bomber aircraft "weapons of mass destruction" in 1937, when the Nazi Luftwaffe was flattening towns - such as Guernica - during the Spanish Civil War."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:05 PM

"However, some more recent U.S. laws, official statements, and documents define WMD as including additional types of weapons, such as radiological weapons or conventional weapons causing mass casualties. Often these laws and documents are focused on responding to possible WMD incidents in the United States."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:01 PM

I know. I think the definition is too narrow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:55 PM

It is normally defined this way: nuclear weapons, chemical weapons, and/or biological weapons.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:52 PM

WMD requires definition. To some very small countries that have no armies to speak of, a country that has an army has, by virtue of having that army, a WMD. WMDs are not always the product of ABC warfare research.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:18 PM

"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains"


That's not a promise, it's a threat. Matter of fact, it's a threat to the whole world. When will the USA, which claims the right to launch pre-emptive wars on countries that have no WMD, also claim the right to make a unilateral nuclear first strike on a non-nuclear country? It has already strongly suggested that it has the right to do so! When it does, the face of the aggressor will be fully revealed to the whole world, and we will be on the verge of a world conflict in which the USA will find itself virtually without allies.

No one will be safe anywhere in such a conflict.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:11 PM

That's easy. We'll know when The Rapture comes. If it's alphabetical in nature, seeing that we've already had The Rupture, it could be sooooooon.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: frogprince
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:08 PM

"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains"
Given the whole nature of this war, with an amorphous "enemy" we frequently can't even identify with any certainty, in what century or millenium will we be able to say we've accomplished that?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:30 PM

Get your guns and get your bullets,
Lock and load! Into the streets!
Make your bombs and gas and napalm,
For The Man a load of treats!

Gotta make Peace, make it happen,
In this here and every other land.
Make the blood run down the gutters,
Ain't no Peace like a dead man.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 09:10 PM

Yes. A new model would be: World disarmament, peaceful coexistence, tolerance toward diversity of cultures, wordwide minimum wage laws, etc...

All stuff that is impossible under the present $ySStem, because it's run by warlords and robber barons, and the last thing on Earth they want is equality and freedom for all humankind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 08:59 PM

Rap is entirely correct... We need a new model to follow and that involves popularizing peace and coexhistence...

Give peace a chance...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:38 PM

Just replace the word "Islam" with "Christianity" in your little historical diatribe, Troll, and you've got basically the same scenario. ;-) Then replace it with a number of other powerful "isms" (religious or otherwise), and again...same scenario. They have all spread themselves by "the sword". The American Way has been spread in that same fashion...and they called it "Manifest Destiny" (as if it were a noble thing to rob other people of their lands and their self-rule).

I find it fascinating that you use the same rationale to justify ceaseless warfare with Islam as is used by radical Islamic firebrands to justify ceaseless warfare with Christendom.

No wonder you hate them so. You see yourself clearly in the mirror.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

Something to keep in mind . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Greg F.
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 07:05 PM

You cannot negotiate with a fanatic...

Absolutely right! There's no dealing with Bush/Cheney/"Mad Dog" Wolfowitz/Rove et. al.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Troll
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 06:47 PM

To understand the mindset of the Islamic terrorists, we must study the history of the spread of Islam. It has always been done by the sword.

The spread of Islam into Europe was halted in Provence and the Moors were driven back into Spain. In 1492, they were driven out of Spain into North Africa.

In Eastern Europe, the armies of Sulieman the Great broke on the walls of Vienna and the spread of Islam by the sword was stopped in Europe.

In Africa and Asia this was not the case and today Islam is the major religion in many countries - Indonesia, the Philippines, all of the 'Stans - and in India, the Moghuls ruled right up until the British Empire took over and even now, there is continual violence between Muslim and Hindu.

The point is, that the desire to spread Islam throughout the world, while it has waxed and waned over the centuries, has never died. bin Laden and crew are simply the latest group to fan the embers into flame.

The goal, as it has always been, is to bring the world under Islamic law.

Unless people understand this and realize that we in the west have not caused this latest effort by the radical Islamists, the west is lost.

You cannot negotiate with a fanatic and that's what everyone seems to want to do.

It has never worked in the past, and it won't work now.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:23 PM

It's already happening, Ebbie, in "less favored" areas. Warlords are appearing all over, their weapons supplied (for the best of intentions) by the late USSR, the United States, Britain, even Canada. Weapons do not self-destruct, they can be used over and over and over -- I have a rifle in my gun safe made in mid-May, 1918, and it shoots as accurately and as well as ever. Made for World War I, I use it for target shooting and (perhaps someday!) hunting.

Getting rid of the weapons won't do it either, as they are actually rather simple to make. To make your own gunpowder, for instance, you need look no farther than Foxfire 5 or any of several other books that are out there (or the Internet). The sloppy part is making KNO3, after that it's just dangerous and, with elementary precautions, quite doable at home.

Besides, you can kill someone with a spear, an arrow, or a rock and take what weapons they might have.

The trick is, I think, to re-orient the thinking of people and nations away from violence and toward cooperation and negotiation.

I'm not up to world-saving at the moment, though. I'm knee-deep in a roof replacement at work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:19 PM

If I may paraphrase the Bible, SH, "What will it avail a man to gain the world (survive), though he lose his soul (in the process)?"

This is a notion that seems to evade the survivalists' mentality, despite the fact that many of them claim to be Christians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 05:10 PM

Do you have any idea, SH, how very much like the people who amass ammunition and ready their caves you sound? There are a lot of those people in Oregon and I imagine elsewhere. People like that have actively planned what to do when the 'day' comes and neighbors ask for shelter and sustenance. The Surivalists are not hesitant to say that they will shoot to kill. What a way to live.


After seeing 'An Incovenient Truth' it strikes me as ridiculous that humankind is more focused on power and greed than we are on cooperating to take back the Earth. If we don't roll back the effects we as a race have put in motion, life on this earth will- in our lifetime - become chaotic and unpredictable to the extreme.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ron Davies
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:54 PM

"We hit back hard and decisive (sic)

1) "Decisive". Uh, not exactly. Decisive(ly) enough for a dandy photo op. But for some unexplained reason, the war continues even in Iraq. Must be the opponents couldn't read English.

2) Another slight problem--we didn't hit back (in Iraq) at the people responsible for 9-11.

3) We'll keep on hitting back--until "Terror" signs the peace treaty, right? After all, it's the "War on Terror".


Use your head, for once--even though your illustrious leader, Mr. Bush, only rarely seems capable of using his..


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:31 PM

( ...resistance.....is.....USLESS!!!!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:28 PM

" The solution is to give resistance back its legitimate place in the democratic process. "

IMO, it has to be TAKEN back. The Bush admin ain't about to give nothin' to no one.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 04:21 PM

America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains.

Once again, the Hubster does a beautiful job of illustrating my point for me.

Resistance is an important part of any free and democratic society. It is only when resistance is suppressed, and not given its rightful place in the political process that it turns violent.

A lot of people have been suppressing legitimate resistance for quite a long time, and because of this, it has turned violent.

The solution is not more suppression. The solution is true democracy and real freedom. The solution is to give resistance back its legitimate place in the democratic process.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:54 PM

SH, you are suffering from the same blind spot as the Islamic fundamentalists that you detest. You can't understand the other guy's point of view or even consider it. You are apparently unaware that the other guy has also been attacked repeatedly in the past by your friends and leaders...and that figuring out who did what "first" is at this point almost impossible...because if you won't pay any attention to bad things that are done to the other guy, then you won't have any idea why the other guy wants to fight you and feels justified. Just like you feel justified.

It's sad. Tunnel vision. Osama's got it. Bush has got it. N. Korea's got it. And you've got it.

Everyone is under the impression that they got attacked first!

Can't you grasp that concept?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:49 PM

The point I disagree with, SH, is this: The terror networks have still to be hit hard. They are still operating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM

Hard at it here. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:34 PM

"Back in April, the president said this:


"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains. We are deeply conscious of the fact that much hard fighting is still ahead of us. Having to pay such a heavy price to make complete victory certain, America will never become a party to any plan for partial victory. To settle for merely another temporary respite would surely jeopardize the future security of the world. Our demand has been, and it remains, unconditional surrender.""


This was the quote from the post above.

This was said by the president on April 16.........1945 and the president then was Truman. But I think the thing that bothers left wingers about it the most is that is sounds exactly like what Bush has been saying and doing.

What is different today that was not the case back then? Then it was the Nazi's and the Japanese imperialists joined by the Italian Fascist. Now it's the Islamic Fundamentalists. World War 2 was, by no means, a "clean war". Even after victory was acheived, there were still pockets of resistance driven by the hard liners or "guerillas". Those people were eventually outed and taken care of.

But now, what we're looking at is people not in uniform clothing but wacko's in uniform thinking. But they're being backed by the same style governments as what was the problem in the late thirties and early to mid forties. Fascist dictatorships.

But recently, all the left in the country is offering their cut-and-run strategy because we're suffering losses. It's as if you're saying, "Ooh....we've lost 3000+ people in a terrorist attack on one day so we better not do anything else to piss them off or we might lose more." Or better yet, "If we were just nice to them and offered them food and medicine and technology to better themselves then they won't attack us."

That is a very flawed line of thinking. I'm not saying that it's bad but at the very least, flawed. In fact, it's a very noble thing to wish and hope for but if it walks like a duck, sounds like a duck, you can bet that it's going to be a duck. That's been proven by what's going on in North Korea.

In the mid to late nineties, the US government met with NK and offered to share our nuclear technology with them to help them better themselves. Now, the idiot over there is flinging missiles towards Japan and Hawaii and threatening us with the same technology that we gave him so that he could help his people. Talk about a bad idea!

I'd like to offer another scenario. This time it involves you and your family.

Suppose that on the same block you live on, there is a family of gangsters. The police won't do anything because the family has yet to do anything that will get them in trouble. But since you know that for them to be charged with something such as murder or stealing, that means that they have to commit the crime first. You value your family and the things that you have amassed for your family. You do not want anything to happen to either one of them. But you start to hear through your neighbors that the gangster family is making preparations to either steal something or is threatening you or one of your children with their life just because you have something that they don't and they want it. What do you do?

1. You could go to the authorities but again, if they have not done anything that is against the law, nothing can be done. You can't say, "well my neighbor said this". That would be hearsay.

2. You could move. But then you'd have to sell your house and buy another one, move all your stuff, move your kids to another school and all the crap that goes on with that.

3. You could approach the family and ask them what their intensions are. They could say "no...of course not. We would never dream of doing that". And you could believe them if it wasn't for the fact that they're gangsters. Or they could say....yeah sure....we're just waiting for the right moment to make our move". But they've still done nothing wrong.

Where does that leave you? With no choice but either number 2 until the next gangster family comes along or the option of number 4. What's number 4?

4. Start preparing for the incident. Buy guns, locks, knives or whatever you have to to make sure that you have the upper hand. When you see them coming, let them have it. Don't let anything happen to your family or your possessions. Take care of the problem so the courts won't have to.

I know what I'd do. I know what I have done to prepare for that moment. #4

This is what the policy is. When you know that they're coming for you, hit them hard and hit them first.

Unfortunately, Israel hasn't had the option to hit first. They've already been hit. But the thing is that they're hitting back hard and decisive. They're forcing the issue of "You're either with us or with the terrorists". Lebanon has stated that they will send their military to the south to protect the Lebanese-Israeli border.

The same with us. We were hit over and over again in the 80's and 90's. Then came 2001. We were hit again. But that time we hit back hard and decisive. Then we kept going. We will keep going. And each time that the gangster family gears up and comes at us again, we will be there and hit them hard and decisive again and again.

Afterall, we've got to protect our family.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 03:06 PM

Well, let's get busy then.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:28 PM

It isn't either / or. Thom Hartmann's recommendations in the Take Back America article, plus proportional representation, plus preferential voting. One doesn't need to be limited to a single approach. If you can get one of them passed, things should improve.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:12 PM

I don't think the measures outlined in the "How to take back America" essay will accomplish what needs to be done. I think they will just create new strong-arm majorities.

I think the only way the voters in the US will have a voter-friendly Democracy will be to establish a voter-initiated movement (independent of any party affiliations or considerations) to get legislation passed in all states to make vote counting proportional, as some states have already done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Rapparee
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 11:49 AM

...but don't talk about revolution,
That's going a little too far,
Love me, love me, love me,
I'm a liberal."

             --Phil Ochs

Won't Get Fooled Again
The Who

We'll be fighting in the streets
With our children at our feet
And the morals that they worship will be gone
And the men who spurred us on
Sit in judgement of all wrong
They decide and the shotgun sings the song

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again

The change, it had to come
We knew it all along
We were liberated from the fold, that's all
And the world looks just the same
And history ain't changed
'Cause the banners, they are flown in the next war

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
No, no!

I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie
Do ya?

There's nothing in the streets
Looks any different to me
And the slogans are replaced, by-the-bye
And the parting on the left
Are now parting on the right
And the beards have all grown longer overnight

I'll tip my hat to the new constitution
Take a bow for the new revolution
Smile and grin at the change all around
Pick up my guitar and play
Just like yesterday
Then I'll get on my knees and pray
We don't get fooled again
Don't get fooled again
No, no!

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah!

Meet the new boss
Same as the old boss


Fighting In The Streets
Cockney Rejects

You're walking along quietly
There's the sound of running feet
You turn around the corner
There's fighting on the street
See all the kids they wanna good time
They all wanna get stuck in
Don't know, don't care
if they're fighting for a cause
AS long as they get one in

Go

We're fighting in the streets

You all look for solutions
But you can rack your brains
No matter what the gov't do
Its never ever gonna change
Wankers hand hand out leaflets
They'll never ever let it be
I don't care what they do
But they better not come near me

Go

We're fighting in the streets

You're walking along quietly
There's the sound of running feet
You turn around the corner
There's fighting on the street
See all the kids they wanna good time
They all wanna get stuck in
Don't know, dont care
if they're fighting for a cause
AS long as they get one in

We're always fighting in the streets
We're always fighting in the streets
We're always fighting in the streets
We're always fighting in the streets


Street Fighting Man
The Rolling Stones

Evrywhere I hear the sound of marching, charging feet, boy
cause summers here and the time is right for fighting in the street, boy
But what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
cause in sleepy london town
Theres just no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! think the time is right for a palace revolution
But where I live the game to play is compromise solution
Well, then what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
cause in sleepy london town
Theres no place for a street fighting man
No

Hey! said my name is called disturbance
Ill shout and scream, Ill kill the king, Ill rail at all his servants
Well, what can a poor boy do
Except to sing for a rock n roll band
cause in sleepy london town
Theres no place for a street fighting man
No


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM

Well, Peace, thanks for thinking that I am helping to preserve democracy by voting against Harper but in the grand scheme of things my vote was stolen. If it can happen in Canada, it can happen (and does) anywhere.

Just ask the Mexicans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:06 AM

What is the problem with fighting for freedom??

None that I can think of. But that is not what they are doing. They are fighting for control. There is a huge difference between these two things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 02:04 AM

Maybe so, Dianavan. But you at least have the satisfaction of knowing you weren't stupid enough to give your vote to Harper's party. That DOES count for something in the grand scheme of things. What it counts for is that people like you help preserve what we have left of democracy. And IMO that counts for everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 06 - 01:57 AM

Right, Amos, "It does make a difference to go vote."

Tell that to the people of Florida and Ohio or Palestine or Lebanon or Iraq.

You'll never convince me of that, ever again. I came to Canada because I wanted a voice but in the last election my vote didn't count here, either. I watched a politician take my vote and give it to the opposing party.

The only difference it's going to make is that when Jeb is elected, everyone will stand around with their fingers up their noses and ask, 'What happened?"

No, Amos, North American's are soft. Their values have changed. It used to be we supported freedom and equality. Now we support big business and crooked politicians. Only you and a handful of people even care. The rest of N. America is dumbed-down and over-fed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:56 PM

All that stuff Bush blathers on about is pure propaganda designed to fool people who are stupid enough to believe it

Bubby apparently not only believes it, he revels in it.

God Help Amerika.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:28 PM

Yep.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 07:27 PM

Peace, I hear just a single drum supporting that song. Do you have a tune for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:38 PM

What's wrong with all that? Heh! It's ridiculously naive, and it has nothing to do with anything that major powers actually fight for.

They don't fight for anyone's freedom.

The only people who ever truly fight for freedom are a few revolutionaries who take on the major powers of their day....like
Emiliano Zapata in Mexico in the early 1900's, like Simon Bolivar, like Fidel Castro when he was a young man fighting the Batista regime in the 1950's, like George Washington and his men when they fought the British Empire, people like that.

Major established national powers do NOT fight for freedom. They fight for dominance and control of markets and resources, and political control of strategic regions.

All that stuff Bush blathers on about is pure propaganda designed to fool people who are stupid enough to believe it. If he believes it himself, then he is as naive as the people who support him, and he's just a tool of the major interests who financed his campaigns and got him into office.

He also IS a terrorist himself. But I'm sure he's quite unaware of it, not being on the receiving end of the terrorism he sponsors.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:28 PM

Listen,


Back in April, the president said this:


"America will continue the fight for freedom until no vestige of resistance remains. We are deeply conscious of the fact that much hard fighting is still ahead of us. Having to pay such a heavy price to make complete victory certain, America will never become a party to any plan for partial victory. To settle for merely another temporary respite would surely jeopardize the future security of the world. Our demand has been, and it remains, unconditional surrender."


What's wrong with this foreign policy? Absolutely nothing.

Now Israel has been sitting idle while Hamas blows up civilian markets and buses and Hezbollah has continuously fired rockets into Israel until now.

What is the problem with fighting for freedom? Do you not believe that people want to be free from having to walk or drive down the street terrified that they'll be caught up in the next suicide bombing?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his policy.

Another quote is this:

"Our war on terror begins with al Qaeda, but it does not end there. It will not end until every terrorist group of global reach has been found, stopped and defeated."

" … We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime."

There you go.

Terrorists supporting nations?

No thanks, I'd rather see them dead or at least.....no....dead. Along with all the rest of the world that wants freedom.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 06:10 PM

Which "threat and whack" scenario are we discussing today, Bobert?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:40 PM

"three things have to happen"

Oops. Musta thought I was counting Democrat votes in Florida or somethin'. That should read 'four', not three.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Peace
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:35 PM

I wrote this a few days back. (Not trying to 'push' the song because I didn't write it with that end in mind, BTW.) IMO, three things have to happen, ASAP.

1) The US has to turn its Iraq stuff over to an International Peacekeeping Force

2) Bush has to be impeached

3) Congress has to grow some, uh, has to find its purpose, which is to represent the American people (not just the American rich people and corporations) and preserve The Constitution (given that the Executive branch of government seems to want to use it in ways never intended by the writers of the original document)

4) Americans have to use their collective voice, because protest ain't dead, but it has been on one helluva long vacation


The Voice

I seek the voice of honesty,
Tell me where you are tonight;
Seven children killed today,
Who never should have gone to play,
Fathers hold their tears at bay,
A mother's son is on his way,
In Arlington they'll dig the grave,
And Mr Bush has this to say:
"We're here to set things right!"
I seek the voice of honesty tonight.

I seek the voice of honesty,
Tell me where you are tonight;
Neo-cons make cauldrons roil,
They light the fires and watch them boil,
Mr Bush sends troops to toil,
To kill, to die on foreign soil,
In a phony war, the perfect foil,
For friends of his who want the oil:
"We're here to set things right!"
I seek the voice of honesty tonight.

I seek the voice of honesty,
Tell me where you are tonight;
Machines of death take to the sky,
Civilians have no place to hide,
From weapons held by either side,
The sunset brings tears to my eye,
In words so crass, so smug, so snide,
Mr Bush with the age-old lie:
"We're here to set things right!"
I seek the voice of honesty tonight.

I seek the voice of honesty,
Tell me where you are tonight;
The television screens so clear,
Put lots of spin on what we hear,
With platitudes we hold so dear,
Truth really never does appear,
George Orwell got it right I fear,
And Mr Bush can't hide the sneer:
"We're here to set things right!"
I seek the voice of honesty tonight.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 03:23 PM

Putin sounds more reasonable, because he IS more reasonable... ;-D


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: katlaughing
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:14 PM

Thanks, Don. I had missed that one. I like Hartman's writing, too. His Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight was very good.

Saying that voting won't make any difference is just a cop-out imo and exactly what those in control want folks to think/feel. It's that kind of apathy which has helped put them in charge. IF everyone who is eligible got out and voted wouldn't that be a wonder?!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: 282RA
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 02:00 PM

Only after letting the situation between Israel and Lebanon deteriorate because we're so wrapped up in our own deteriorating situations do we suddenly think of this:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060715/pl_afp/mideastunrestlebanon_060715171142;_ylt=Ar1fGytsumoyCaS.XY3FsyMUvioA;_ylu=X3oDMTBiMW0


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: harpmolly
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:44 PM

Arne--

LOL!!! "Just wait..."

(Or should we say, "Just you wait, 'Enry 'Iggins, just you wait...")

Oh, yeah, Bush, that's just terrific. Walk it to him! Kick his ass with your dazzling comeback!

On second thought, I just stopped laughing. How sad is it that Vladimir Freaking Putin sounds more reasonable than our own president?

Sigh...suddenly feeling very Marvin-esque. And I've got this terrible pain in the diodes all down my left side...

Molly


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Barry Finn
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:37 PM

Thanks Arne for the link. I just can't believe how many times our village idiot puts his foot in his mouth, can't they just gag him when he goes out. It's truly embrassing.
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Donuel
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:14 PM

"Diplomacy is hard work. Its much faster when you act alone"
GWB


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Arne
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 01:12 PM

Dubya telling Putin that Russia ought to emulate Iraq's "democracy". Putin says, diplomatically: "Thanks but no thanks."


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Greg F.
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:50 PM

The Weenie is only doing what his handlers tell him to do. Dumbya is NOT the problem here: he's just the public face of the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:49 PM

Go vote! Absolutely! But people are going to have to do more that just go vote

Like I keep saying. I've posted links to this article by Thom Hartmann about a dozen times now and apparently nobody reads it or they completely discount it—or they suddenly realize that it's going to take a little work on their part, and that's too much to ask.

But short of a bloody revolution, it's the only way out of this mess.

Okay, I'll try it again, not that it will do any good (sigh).

FER CRISSAKE READ IT AND HEED IT!

Not that I have much hope. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: 282RA
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM

Regardless, voting is all we have to affect peaceful change. So we either use it or we take to the streets or we sit back and do nothing and just "stay the course."

Boy has Bush ever turned into a wimpy weenie all the sudden. Now he's "asking" Lebanon to stop the rocket attacks and he's backing off in his argument with Putin.

Now he's is saying that he merely wants to "promote" institutional change in Iraq. Jesus Christ, he INVADED it! And he was SO proud of that. Now it was merely "promoting" change.

All the warhawks have to be scratching their heads. Who took their swaggering tough-talking chief and replaced him with a liberal democratic peace-loving tree-hugging weenie?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Amos
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 12:31 PM

It does make a difference to go vote; dianavan is mistaken.

And communicating often and widely, again and again, and keeping the truth in plain view, are good things to invest your time in.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:56 AM

Sooo, tell me what we CAN do! Nobody is listening!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 11:52 AM

Sorcha, with all due respect, I don't think your advice to, "Just go vote," is going to make one little bit of difference. We now have an alliance of Britain, the U.S. and Canada (headed by Harper).

Combined with the fact that nobody believes in honest election results anymore, doesn't give me much hope for defeating these guys in an election.

If Canadians elect politicians like Harper, what chance do we have of overturning the so-called 'will of the people'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:21 AM

Just go vote, Bobert...it's about all we can do now. And it's all the little weenie knows how to do.


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Subject: BS: Bush's *Big Stick* Foriegn Policy...
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Jul 06 - 10:16 AM

How do you Bushites like Bush's "threat and whack" foriegn policy now???

I didn't much like Clinton but I'd sho nuff would like to return to an "engege and contain" foriegn policy 'cause this one simply ain't workin' for anyone other than defense contractors...

Bobert


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