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BS: Help mend my broken heart

GUEST,Just me 18 Jun 06 - 11:51 AM
GUEST 18 Jun 06 - 11:53 AM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jun 06 - 11:57 AM
kendall 18 Jun 06 - 12:06 PM
John MacKenzie 18 Jun 06 - 12:08 PM
open mike 18 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM
Georgiansilver 18 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM
Bobert 18 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM
Jeri 18 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM
CarolC 18 Jun 06 - 12:17 PM
GUEST,Just me 18 Jun 06 - 01:08 PM
wysiwyg 18 Jun 06 - 01:36 PM
GUEST,been somewhere near there 18 Jun 06 - 01:38 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 06 - 01:41 PM
Don Firth 18 Jun 06 - 02:04 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 06 - 02:08 PM
GUEST,Just me 18 Jun 06 - 02:41 PM
Don Firth 18 Jun 06 - 02:51 PM
wysiwyg 18 Jun 06 - 03:02 PM
Don Firth 18 Jun 06 - 03:14 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 06 - 03:25 PM
Don Firth 18 Jun 06 - 03:40 PM
Amos 18 Jun 06 - 03:46 PM
GUEST,been there 18 Jun 06 - 04:17 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 06 - 04:27 PM
GUEST,Just me 18 Jun 06 - 04:42 PM
Little Hawk 18 Jun 06 - 04:47 PM
kendall 18 Jun 06 - 05:55 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Jun 06 - 10:36 PM
Anonny Mouse 18 Jun 06 - 11:16 PM
Stilly River Sage 18 Jun 06 - 11:21 PM
number 6 18 Jun 06 - 11:27 PM
Sorcha 18 Jun 06 - 11:45 PM
freda underhill 19 Jun 06 - 01:15 AM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 01:33 AM
GUEST 19 Jun 06 - 01:52 AM
Big Al Whittle 19 Jun 06 - 05:35 AM
jacqui.c 19 Jun 06 - 07:06 AM
GUEST,Just me 19 Jun 06 - 03:21 PM
jacqui.c 19 Jun 06 - 04:33 PM
Little Hawk 19 Jun 06 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,mg 19 Jun 06 - 04:43 PM
GUEST 19 Jun 06 - 05:30 PM
kendall 19 Jun 06 - 05:58 PM
Stilly River Sage 19 Jun 06 - 05:59 PM
freda underhill 19 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM
Big Al Whittle 20 Jun 06 - 04:13 AM
GUEST 20 Jun 06 - 05:12 AM
Fibula Mattock 20 Jun 06 - 06:05 AM
Big Al Whittle 20 Jun 06 - 06:46 AM
freda underhill 20 Jun 06 - 09:11 AM
jacqui.c 20 Jun 06 - 11:51 AM
GUEST,Just me 20 Jun 06 - 02:33 PM
GUEST 20 Jun 06 - 03:51 PM
wysiwyg 20 Jun 06 - 05:11 PM
GUEST 20 Jun 06 - 08:55 PM
GUEST,abuse survivor 21 Jun 06 - 05:58 AM
GUEST,Just me 21 Jun 06 - 03:19 PM
GUEST,Just me 21 Jun 06 - 03:23 PM
Wesley S 21 Jun 06 - 04:27 PM
M.Ted 22 Jun 06 - 01:02 AM
GUEST 22 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM
GUEST,J 22 Jun 06 - 10:52 AM
GUEST,petr 22 Jun 06 - 12:07 PM
GUEST 23 Jun 06 - 10:50 PM
GUEST 23 Jun 06 - 10:51 PM
GUEST 23 Jun 06 - 10:55 PM
GUEST 24 Jun 06 - 01:18 AM
GUEST,Just me 24 Jun 06 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,Just me 24 Jun 06 - 07:44 AM
Alice 24 Jun 06 - 10:43 AM
Tannywheeler 24 Jun 06 - 12:50 PM
GUEST 24 Jun 06 - 05:34 PM
GUEST 25 Jun 06 - 08:13 AM
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Subject: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:51 AM

For the last 18 months or so a relationship I was forced to leave (I was forced out of the house) has been limping on. This other person goes into wild moods that I have no idea how to calm, with bizarre and illogical arguments I cannot claim to understand. So I am best shot of this person, right? You'd think so. But now in separate houses we've been continuously on/off. The other person always ends it then comes back and begs forgiveness. I let this happen because, though I know in my head I am unwise to keep this relationship on, my heart yearns for the best of what the relationship gave me. When I see this person the angels sing and everything goes in slow motion. But today again this person broke my heart with the same old pattern of destructive behaviour. Please try and give me some wisdom and help me come to my senses!


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:53 AM

See a psychologist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:57 AM

It sounds like you know what the answer is.

Good luck in your new life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:06 PM

Been there, done it, finally escaped with a broken heart. Now, after 8 years I'm married to the almost perfect woman.
You must make a space before anyone can fill it.
You know what you must do, and it aint easy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:08 PM

End it, once you get over that you will be able to start afresh. I mean it's not as if it's going anywhere is it? Life is too short for this sort of relationship, think of all the nice people out there you've yet to meet.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: open mike
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:09 PM

A counsellor can help you both see the patterns
and chose to work on them or go seperate ways.
It sounds exhausting. Do yo ureally have time
or energy for these repeated roller coaster dramas?

Perhaps the problem is not ALL the other person's doing......
it takes two to tango..

listen to your head, not your heart this time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM

Been through it more than once..unfortunately...you get into that relationship where you think all is great and it slowly goes sour. The other person is not the character you thought they were and you pay a price by hanging on to what you had...not what you have. The only way forward is the only way you know will be positive for you. You have a choice to make whether you make a weak one or a strong one. I would suggest a strong decision.....where I admit to before having made weak ones myself. Best wishes, Mike.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:13 PM

Next time, just say no...

Until then, find some new folks to hang with who are stimulatin' and not part of the ol' crowd which I'm sure the other party knows as well...

Good luck...


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Jeri
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:15 PM

Listen to both your head AND your heart! I also agree that you have to walk out one door to open another.

And Kendall, she's not perfect! She talks funny, and... well, she talks funny. ☺


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 12:17 PM

Depending on how many years and what size chunk of your life you've got invested in this relationship, you might want to see if the other person would be willing to find out if there is a medical and/or psychiatric reason for the mood swings.

Undiagnosed diabetes, for instance, can cause mood swings, as can bipolar disorder. And hormone imbalance is another possibility.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 01:08 PM

Thank you. Lots of good thoughts there. The battle between the heart's longing and the logic of the (almost) inevitable is a difficult one. Picking up on what's been said so far, I did get the other person to see a counsellor for a series of sessions. The other person (I do keep trying to give nothing away, even the gender) came back with what turned out to be a pack of half-truths and just plain lies about what the counsellor had said - all admitted in the end. I know this makes my partner sound like a bad person, but this really isn't the case: just muddled and in need of help which I have tried - and, it seems, failed - to provide. In the end, I think, someone has to admit to themself that they're behaving irratically and strangely - imagining things that didn't happen, creating arguments out of that, trying to get out of a fast moving car, regularly disappearing for hours on end, hiding away and drinking until they're sick all over themselves, etc., etc. - but all that's painful to watch for their lover (me), and painful to hide from those who could be hurt by the knowledge. (Now you can see why this is anonymous.) You're right: life's short. Is it too short to waste time on this relationship? Or too short to give up on someone I fell head over heels in love with?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 01:36 PM

Do you feel safe?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,been somewhere near there
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 01:38 PM

Sometimes when someone is drowning, trying to save him or her just drags you under the water too. The best you can do in that case is save yourself from drowning. Walking away from the person is like severing your own arm, but you just have to do it.

You are the one who needs help to get out of a toxic relationship. Stop focusing on his/her problems and start focusing on yourself.

1. See a therapist. Now.
2. Get a LOT of support. Join a support group. Al-Anon is not just for people involved with alcoholics, but for those who are dealing with all sorts of destructive people and working on healing themselves. It's free, there are groups in every city in North America.

Good luck.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 01:41 PM

You can love people, and yet not allow them to dominate your life. You can love them, but not let them use you as a foil for their own weaknesses. You can love them enough to say "no" when they cross the line. If you don't show them where that line is, how will they ever know?

Sounds to me like you already know what to do. You just need to find the strength to do it, that's all.

I have fallen "head over heels" in love with several people in this life. Not one of them is beside me now. Why? They aren't meant to be. It may have worked for awhile or it may not have, but it definitely wouldn't work now. I accept that.

Part of truly loving is having the guts to let go of the other person. If someone won't let go of you...do you enjoy that? I sure don't. It's like being trapped in a prison, and one not of your own design. Love that will NOT let go is not love at all...it's something else masquerading as love. Some kind of need. Some kind of gnawing hunger. Such things devour people.

All the kind of acting out you are describing, the self-destructive stuff...I've seen that. It's a cry for attention, it's emotional blackmail, it's an attempt to control others, it's deep self-hatred and self-punishment playing itself out, and you cannot help such a person in my opinion, because they are generally unwilling to change. They are dealing with their reality the only way they know how, and they will drag you down in the negative spiral with them.

Man, have I had a bellyfull of THAT! Get yourself free, that's my advice. Love does not imprison the beloved or the self.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:04 PM

GUEST,Just me, this is a toxic relationship and you are the one who's getting poisoned.

The notion of a "one and only" or a "soul mate" is a very romantic idea, but in real life, it's a crock. I've been around the block a sufficient number of times and I know that the someone unromantic adage that "there are other fish in the sea" is the accurate one. I've had my share of romances and break-ups (some initiated by me, some by the lady in question) over the years. No, I'm not a cynic. Nor am I a Don Juan. And now I'm very happily married and have been so for twenty-eight years.

You might feel pretty down for awhile, but break it off with this person, make it permanent, and no matter how much he or she begs for forgiveness and wants to get back together, just remember:    you've done it before (how many times?) and it turned out to be the same damned story yet again!   It isn't going to change! Repeat that to yourself the next time this person wants to get back together:   It isn't going to change!

So have some respect for yourself. Break it off, make it permanent, and start living your life. Give yourself some time to recover, spend time by yourself and learn to enjoy it, then play the field for awhile before you start looking around again.

Been there. Done that. Good luck (but don't count on luck—take control of your own life.).

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:08 PM

I agree with Don 100%.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:41 PM

I really hesitated before I started this thread, and then hesitiated again before 'Submit Message'. I'm glad I did now. You've all been so kind and supportive, and for that I'm very grateful. I asked for your wisdom, and you gave it. And you're all right: I do know what I need to do - but I'm so afraid of the pain of doing it. But then I ask myself: in the long run, is the pain of finally parting ways better or worse, longer or shorter, than the pain of *not* finally parting ways and carrying on "as normal" in this abnormal relationship? You all knew the answer - and, really, so do I. Thank you all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 02:51 PM

Sounds like you're on the right track. I guess it's sort of like going to the dentist. It's not pleasant, but if you don't, it'll be far less pleasant later on. Best wishes.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 03:02 PM

DO you feel safe?

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 03:14 PM

Susan (WYSIWYG) asks an important question, Just me. How is this person laible to react when it finally sinks in that it's over?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 03:25 PM

Yeah. That's a point to consider indeed. I resorted to moving out of the city I was living in to end one relationship where a person I'd been involved with for a few years was obsessively pursuing me and wouldn't take "no" for an answer. She eventually found someone else, had a child by him, and drove him slowly into the ground. He died, quite young, and I'd say his health broke down mostly because he was in a state of total despair all the time with the relationship and subconsciously really wanted out anyway. It then took her about another 10 years to drink herself to death, at the tender age of about 35.

Nothing I could think of to do would turn her away from her self-destructive patterns...and believe me, I tried! For about 5 years. I sort of wish I could get those 5 years back sometimes, but I learned a lot anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 03:40 PM

The ultimate problem, which it think is what Susan is getting at, is the possible threat of physical danger (horrible visions of the movie "Play Misty for Me" or "Fatal Attraction"). Just how unstable is this person? If the possibility seems to exist at all, don't take chances. Do whatever is necessary to protect yourself.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Amos
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 03:46 PM

I can think of two interesting choices. One would be to dedicate your life to this person's sustenance and just decide that is to be your main careeer, acting as a foil, a heat-sink for their wrath and passion, a bumper when they lose control, and an emotional battery when they need to suck some emotional energy from you.

The other would be to quietly pack everything you own into a car, and drive to the Coast, whichever one suits you, put down roots and start a new life in which h/she does not figure.
The kind of love you've fallen into won't build a strong life; but if it means the world to you, settle for choice #1, with all the bandages and bruises it entails.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,been there
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:17 PM

But don't stay in a bad situation just through fear of what might happen if you don't. I stood my ground when the other person threatened to kill me if I didn't change my mind. When I called their bluff they left the country - and, as you can tell, I am still alive, and have never regretted my decision.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:27 PM

A relative of mine had a fanatical pest of a suitor who harassed her for months and one day threatened to jump off the Bloor Street Bridge (it's a big one!) if she wouldn't accept his love. She called his bluff and said, "Fine. Go ahead then. Jump." He didn't. ;-) He gave up and went away, muttering about how "heartless" she was. Main thing is, he went away after that.

And if he had jumped...she would still have been better off, in my opinion.

But they very seldom do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:42 PM

To answer questions, I really don't feel in any danger if I end this relationship. Going to the coast in the middle of the night will not be necessary! The real danger, I think, is that the other person will go and do something stupid but, in the end, that's their choice and not mine (as many of you have indicated). I've always known that and have not, I think, taken on any undue over-responsibility for their actions, but I do think a loving relationship brings a duty of care with it - and that sometimes involves sacrifices. That said, when a person is regularly self-destructing one has to draw the line somewhere (again, as Mudcatters have indicated) and not get sucked down a hole with them. I think this relationship has finally reached the stage where the legacy of [destruction / walking out / disappearing off the face of the planet] is such that reconstruction seems increasingly daunting, if not impossible.

Your responses to this thread have been so caring, intelligent and considerate. Thank you all from the bottom of my heart.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Little Hawk
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 04:47 PM

You're most welcome. One thing you can be fairly sure of, and I say this directly from my own experience...they WILL find someone else once you are no longer an option. There's always another prospect out there, impossible as it may seem at the time... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: kendall
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 05:55 PM

When he threatens you with doing away with himself, that's called a "Hook" and he knows which buttons to push to get what he wants. Take that power away from him and help him to grow up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:36 PM

Some of this behavior does sound bipolar and there is just no way you can fix it or really adapt to it. If he/she gets medication and other help it might be OK..might not.. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Anonny Mouse
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:16 PM

It sounds a bit like you've taken on the role of "rescuer" for the partner, or the relationship...

There's a old saying in the Counseling biz: "The rescuer becomes the victim." Mostly, that's been my experience.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:21 PM

The fear of the pain that will occur when you end the relationship is understandable. But understand this--when you need to vomit, fighting the impulse just makes it worse in the end. Barf and get it over with, if you know what I'm trying to say. Fighting the fear just makes it worse, and once the split happens then you can begin to get better and the pain will lessen. Once the decision is made, you will feel different, hopefully better.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: number 6
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:27 PM

I always avoided driving under the Bloor street bridge.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Sorcha
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:45 PM

Oh for pity's sake....I hate to dignify this with a response. Just get it over with. Get out. Stop playing games.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:15 AM

Some people can have a mixture of qualities - wonderful attributes as well as ugly ones. Sometimes its almost like they're two people, and you stay because of the wonderful one. Be very careful of the people who make you feel sorry for them. They don't take responsibility for the distress they dump around themselves. And those who lash out - leave them.

freda


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:33 AM

The Bloor Street Viaduct is a huge bridge in downtown Toronto, crossing the Don River Valley that bisects the city. Many a suicide took place off that bridge over the years. The city finally responded by rigging up a network of strange cables and stuff that make it very difficult to jump off that bridge anymore. Still, it does feel a little odd driving underneath it, I'll admit to that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 01:52 AM

Just me, are you disguising a relationship that actually started on mudcat? Your heartbreaker's M.O. sounds suspiciously like the behavior of someone who has ripped up the lives of more than a few women on the 'cat. If that is the case, you don't have to out yourself, but do PM Joe Offer. Joe is aware of the situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:35 AM

what does bi-polar mean in this context?

interesting thread.

the dichotony between action and inaction - profound stuff.

I think - it depends where you are in life. I'm 57. And I 've decided not to make any more decisions. Like that Tony Robbins advert - get the edge. Decide what you want, realise you can't have it, and just hang on to as many of the moveables as you can before you peg out.

I'd like to say it works for me, or that it works, but that would be too large a claim.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: jacqui.c
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 07:06 AM

Just me - from reading your first post it seems that you had already reached the point where you know that you have to get out of this relationship, in the same way as any addict comes to a realisation that they ARE addicted. Asking for advice here is the equivalent of walking into an Al-Anon meeting IMHO.

The actual severing of the connection is difficult and painful to start with but, trust me, does become easier the further down the path you go. It is probable that you will always have some feelings for your partner for the rest of your life but you are also likely to see, from the distance that time will bring, that the relationship would have become more and more corrosive to you personally.

None of us can take on total responsibility for another adult, it isn't good for either party. the only person that you need to care for is yourself.

Good luck for the future - spend some time looking after yourself, getting to know who YOU are and what YOU want. Once you have taken time out to be just you most other things fall into place.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 03:21 PM

More answers. I am not disguising a relationship that started on Mudcat (and I do not live in the USA). Also, many of you assume that the person I am talking about is male - this is deliberately not something I have stated one way or the other. As many of you have picked up, I really know in my heart of hearts what I need to do. So why start this thread? I suppose the child in me wants someone to come up with a magic solution, and the adult in me (a MUCH bigger part of me) is scared of making the decision to end a relationship that, at its best, has really enriched my life. Why scared? I am not scared of being alone, but I still keep holding on to the best of this relationship (and there have been *very* good times between the madnesses) and hoping that this will overpower the destructive habits - but really I know it won't. I know, really, all the things that others have said. But most of us need support to make painful steps, I don't want to burden those around me and I suppose this thread was a way of seeking anonymous help, understanding, support. I am so grateful that I have received that, and it HAS given me strength and support. I'm glad, Sorcha, that your emotional life is so much simpler than all that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: jacqui.c
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:33 PM

As with any support group, if you need to reconfirm your resolve thare are many people here who will be happy to listen. If you are a Mudcatter please feel free to PM me any time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Little Hawk
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:36 PM

Yeah...that's about what went through my mind too when I read Sorcha's post.

You know, judging by my experience, that other person you are talking about could as easily be female as male or vice versa. It's just as common a situation with either gender.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:43 PM

Remember, you can not overcome madness. You can only get trapped into it. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:30 PM

Learn to love yourself. If you don't, you're doomed to having someone else determine your happiness. When you've learned to love yourself you won't put up with destuctive behavior. Actually, you can't love another properly if you don't love yourself first.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: kendall
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:58 PM

Right on, GUEST


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 05:59 PM

The decision is still yours, permission is not necessary; the best the members of this forum can do is tell you that you'll most likely survive and chances are good that you'll thrive following your recovery from the relationship. You won't get over it overnight, but you will get over it.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:22 PM

Hi "just me"

There is a great book that can help, called "Women Who Love Too Much
When You Keep Wishing and Hoping He'll Change" by Robin Norwood, although it is written for women it's relevent to anyone in this situation.

It explains the dynamics of co-dependency, how the woman becomes addicted to her own adrenaline in her brain, as a result of "walking on eggshells" to support the alcoholic/ anger addicted partner. She shows how this addiction to an emotional abuser affects every area of the woman's life. And the recovery process is essentially the same for either alcohol addiction or relational addiction.

In the last part of the book the author helps the reader step by step to recover from the relational addiction.

Like the effect of a drug, the person you are with seems to bring a potency and passion to your life that makes everything else fade into the background. You become addicted to the emotional extremes, and life without the person seems empty & colourless, devoid of love, power, fulfilment.

Like a drug this is a complete illusion. You can have a passionate relationship that is non-abusive. But not until you walk away & recover, however long that takes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 04:13 AM

'When you've learned to love yourself you won't put up with destuctive behavior. Actually, you can't love another properly if you don't love yourself first.'

what if you've realised that you're not actually all that keen on yourself....never have been? Try as one might, one's despicable attributes keep coming to the fore in one's mind.

Still no explanantion of bi-polar. Are we talking Jekyll and Hyde, that sort of thing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:12 AM

I believe bi-polar disorder is manic depression weelittledrummer


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:05 AM

Bipolar (manic depressive illness):
http://www.mind.org.uk/Information/Booklets/Understanding/Understanding+manic+depression.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 06:46 AM

thank you


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: freda underhill
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:11 AM

just me, that was a stupid book for me to recommend. It is all about goodies & baddies, and I notice you said "I know this makes my partner sound like a bad person, but this really isn't the case: just muddled and in need of help which I have tried - and, it seems, failed - to provide."

sorry

freda


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: jacqui.c
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 11:51 AM

weelittledrummer - There's not much you can do about the past except accept that it happened but that you have moved on. Is it your own past actions that concern you or other people's view of you? It is surprising what effect the opinions of others can have on the individual psyche - in common with a lot of other people I was badly affected by the negative view of my parents toward me and it took a long time to get past that and realise that they were wrong. Now if someone makes an negative comment about me I stop to think whether there is any truth in it and what I can do to change it. However, I also look at the person making the comment just to see whether it is their problem, not mine.

Right now Kendall and I are awaiting the news that a dear friend has died. When he and Kendall first knew each other Frank was a real bastard and they hated each other. They met again, through a mutual friend, Andy, many years later and Frank admitted that he had behaved badly to just about everyone in his life but that spending time with Andy and Kendall had changed his view on life in general. When I met him he was one of the sweetest old guys I have known and it was surprising to learn about his past behaviour and attitudes.

It is never too late to change your ways, for most people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 02:33 PM

Freda, thank you. What you say in your first post makes sense, and I'd not really thought of it that way before. I thought that I'd look that book up until you withdrew your recommendation!

Several contributors have told me I need to learn to love myself. You *may* have a point, I'll have to think about that one. I am certainly not self-loathing, I live on my own, really do like my own company, not a problem. The problem is that I am a bit of a perfectionist in some ways, an 'all or nothing' person. I either want to do something properly or not at all. That also goes for relationships. I suppose I think that if I give up on this person then I have somehow given in, failed, not completed the task properly, somehow. Does this add up to needing to learn to love myself? Now that I've typed all that, I see that it makes perfect sense! A personal revelation while on Mudcat! Now THAT'S good value!

Weelittledrummer, yes, my partner was very much a Jekyll and Hyde character. Mentally unstable, yes, but there are reasons in the person's experience that make that make sense. I don't think I'd label it as quite as extreme as bipolar (knowing someone who has been diagnosed with it), but I am no expert. I don't want this to sound melodramatic, but it is true that even this person's facial movements and bodily gestures would change while in these moods, become wild and exaggerated, and a perfectly rational person would become completely wild, extreme, screaming, frightening, irrational. Over a period of time, things have calmed down on that front, but still, there remain the echoes of the bizarre arguments over made up things that didn't make any sense in things the person still says, and I have run out of energy to argue with it or try and sort it out. I am exhausted.

jacqui.c., you are right, "It is never too late to change your ways, for most people." I have known for a while, though, that the change ultimately has to come from the person needing change. Ultimately, change cannot be persuaded or even loved into existence for you by others. I have failed to make changes in my own loved one's life or patterns of behaviour - so now it is time to make changes in my own. This perfectionist has realised that sometimes you just have to leave something imperfect, incomplete, messy, unfinished. I am now building up the courage for D day this week.

Thank you all so much - again - for your kind words, wisdom and support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 03:51 PM

It is certainly possible to drive a perfectly sane person into a frenzy with your own behavior if it is provocative and you are unaware of this or doing it deliberately. No one's behavior exists in a vacuum but is rather reactive to the situation in which it occurs. My guess is that you provoked at least some of the mood swings. You do seem somewhat "innocent" in your presentation and probably liable to blame the other for angry responsese to your provocation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: wysiwyg
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 05:11 PM

In that last post, Guest Me, you have an opportunity to practice applying some of the advice given in this thread-- to remain disengaged. :~)

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 08:55 PM

Maybe that "Women Who Love to Much" book would be good, "just me", at least in helping you understand the patterns, and helping to identify the issues. Another useful book is I Hate You--Don't Leave Me, reviewed here

Maybe your partner has a touch of BPD , which some people think is an extreme form of Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Where are your friends and family in all this? Has he or she taken over your life to the exclusion of other close friends? do you need a support group - if you google "support group", your gender, and your location, you may get one that is close by. There are also support websites like the one I've linked to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,abuse survivor
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 05:58 AM

something's bothering me

WHY did your partner try to get out of a fast-moving car?

Acting out?
Or did he/she feel threatened by something?
Were you verbally abusing him/her?
Driving too fast or erratically?
Taking him/her somewhere he/she didn't want to go?


The previous guest is right, it certainly IS possible to drive a sane person into a frenzy by provocative behaviour .. and then make them look (and feel) like they are the crazy one

I hope that isn't what's happening here


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:19 PM

That is not what is happening here - you are filling in gaps, perhaps from your own experience (I am guessing) because, of course, you don't know the whole picture, but in the wrong direction. Since I started this thread to seek support and am anonymous, I don't feel I need to defend myself. Just believe that I do not behave and have never behaved in any way to provoke these reactions, and am always baffled by them. It would be a strange world where everyone was partly 'to blame' for the behaviour of everyone else we came into contact with. We all make choices. I made mine to stay with this person and try to help them no matter what, as I was deeply in love. I know why the person reacts as the person does - it is because they have flashbacks from a previous relationship that ended in disaster and betrayal. The person therefore sees danger and betrayal where it does not exist in the real world, just as those who have been in a car crash or been raped or have been abused or betrayed as a child can relive those experiences, not as memories *known* to be memories, but as actual 'real' experiences, though they are generated by traumatised memories, from within unresolved memory. There are, of course, triggers, but these triggers may not make sense to anyone else other than the person experiencing it - and they may not even make sense to them. It may just be a word said completely innocently in the middle of a sentence which triggers a memory (either heard from another or said by themself), or driving down a particular street that has a house that looks vaguely like a house from the past that triggers a memory that leads to a traumatic reaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 03:23 PM

GUEST, thanks for the link to Kernberg's Borderline Personality Organization. Yes, this does sound very much like the person I am discussing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Wesley S
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 04:27 PM

I know that a lot of 12 step programs suggest that the only way a person can get better is to "hit bottom". Then they can pick themselves up again. But often the people around them { perhaps you } tend to soften the blow or keep this folks from hitting bottom too hard. Could that be the case here ? Perhaps the best thing you could offer your friend is the opportunity to fail - hit bottom - so that they have no where else to go but seek help. And NOT from you.

Just an idea to consider.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: M.Ted
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 01:02 AM

Just Me--the reasons you give are not the reasons that your friend is acting out--your friend has serious psychiatric problems--from personal experience, I can tell you that part of the trap you are in is that you think you understand the causes--you don't-- no one understands the causes of psychiatric problems, at least not well enough to make them go away--

one thing that is clear is that your friend has chosen not to deal with the problems, and, instead, uses them to control and manipulate others--over time, people with psychiatric problems can find ways to live with them, and to minimize the effect they have on others, but only if they want to, and only if they work very hard to make it happen.

The reason that people make the effort to manage their psychiatric problems is simple--they care about the people around them, and don't want to make people that they love suffer--but if they don't really care, they will never make the effort-- your friend doesn't care enough about you to protect you--That's simple, too--

For me, the change came when I finally realized that the person that I was caring for didn't care about what happened to me at all. It got a lot easier to get away after that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM

Is it right to be discussing another person's problems on a public forum in this way? This person may be a friend and mudcatter and may read this. I would find it very distressing if it were me being discussed.

I also think we should be careful about labelling another person manipulative and unstable without knowing the full facts.

Just me, maybe it is time you found yourself a trained counsellor to discuss your problems with?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,J
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 10:52 AM

Just Me, please take a deep breath, be brave and walk away from this situation, you won't start to feel better until you do. Having had to do a similar thing a few years ago I would suggest you confide in a few really good friends if you can, who will help to support you until you get stronger, which you will, I promise. I found I had to learn to be me again, and it took time, but it was worth it in the end! And eventually I met someone else. I still think about the person I walked away from, and in a way I still love him and I wouldn't want to forget everything that we had, but it just wasn't right, and it took finding something that was right before I really realised this. As for self-help books, I read my share and the one I found really helpful was Dr Spencer Johnson's book 'Who Moved My Cheese' - worth a read to help you to move on. Hope everything works out O.K. and don't forget, others have been there and come through, so will you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:07 PM

my impression from the first post was borderline personality disorder, as I had a similar experience with someone in the past.
(theres a book called 'I hate you dont leave me' which discusses the disorder) Often one of the parents is absent or abusive. And its as if they are trying to makeup for something missing in childhood - usually theres a string of failed relationship or on again off again relationship with someone (who is usually their punching bag) Although it may not be a physically abusive relationship.

I can see why JustME would also start the thread, even though JustMe probably knows what h/she should do, it helps to talk about it with someone even if its an anonymous forum like the mudcat.

I actually posted as a 'Sad Guest' on a similar situation. I ended the relationship, and am now happily married with an 18month old daughter whos going to be a big sister in november. It did help though to hear all the folks responses.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:50 PM

Listen to the angels. Do you think any of the imbeciles, with their miserable little lives, offering you advice on this thread, could make angels sing?


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:51 PM

It doesn't matter, if you love the person, you got to take the love lumps. You probably have great make up sex. They all envy you. It sounds like you have a very exciting relationship, never too predictable, never boring or wearisome.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 10:55 PM

You have just heard from an idiot. Twice in a row.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 01:18 AM

Linehan on emotional dysregulation:

"
Linehan has set out a biosocial theory that the core disorder for people with borderline personality difficulties is that of emotional dysregulation. This can be seen as the resultant product of an interaction of biological disposition and the environment. A biologically vulnerable child in an invalidating environment will develop difficulties in emotional regulation. On the one hand we have emotional vulnerability which can be defined as a very high sensitivity to emotional stimuli, secondly a very intense response to emotional stimuli and third, a slow return to a baseline of settled emotions once emotional arousal has occurred. Adding lay terms, people who are emotional vulnerable have a high sensitivity to negative events(they go off readily) , and when triggered the reaction is very strong (when they go off, they REALLY go off), and are slow to settle to baseline (relax, let go, become centered). Thus someone with an emotional vulnerability will be readily and markedly distressed by relatively benign negative events, and if a succession of these occur before they have settled after the last one, their emotional state will become more and more distressed.

The other aspect of emotional dysregulation is that of inadequate emotional modulation strategies. Emotional modulation consists of firstly, the ability to inhibit inappropriate behaviour related to strong negative or positive emotions. The excess of positive emotional displays of the histrionic personality are just as relevant examples of this as are the extreme depressive responses which might drive suicidal impulses. The second aspect of inadequate emotional regulation refers to the inability to organise oneself for co-ordinated action in the service of an external goal. In other words such a person cannot act in a way that is mood dependent when necessary. Thirdly, we have the inability to self soothe heightened physiological arousal that the strong emotion has induced, and fourthly, there is the inability to refocus attention in the presence of strong emotion."

Emotional dysregulation is a broad spectrum problem which exists with or without the diagnosis of BPD, which in my opinion is utilized diagnostically, in a very cavalier manner these days. Most notably, it is used in a pejorative manner to lable difficult patients or individuals. It has it's origin in the old diagnosis of pseudoneurotic schizophrenia.

Emotional dysregulation is thought to be a combination of environmental factors and a biological predisposition to managing emotional responses poorly, with regard to interactions with other individuals or family members as is evident in Marsha Linehan's writing about Dialectical Behavioral Therapy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 04:40 AM

'GUEST 22 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM ', don't worry. If the person under discussion was personally known to Mudcatters I would never have started this thread.

'GUEST 24 Jun 06 - 01:18 AM', thanks for that. I think I understood most of it!

'GUEST 23 Jun 06 - 10:55 PM', I think almost anyone reading this thread would agree with you. All the other contributions testify to that. If anyone envied me, as 'GUEST 23 Jun 06 - 10:55 PM' suggests, I would soon convince them overwise. In that case, why have I put up with all of this? That's a question I had answers for in the past, but they no longer seem valid now. Having started this thread wondering if I was doing the right thing, I have received wisdom and counsel which has been a huge help and support. We all need understanding at difficult key points in our lives, preferrably from someone who has stood in our shoes. I have had that, and for that I can only express my deepest gratitude.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST,Just me
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 07:44 AM

Sorry. Of course, the above *should* read, "If anyone envied me, as 'GUEST 23 Jun 06 - ****10:50 PM****' suggests ..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Alice
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 10:43 AM

It does help to communicate with people who have been in your shoes. Any of us who have lived long enough usually encounter a relationship with someone who we have to disconnect from for our own welfare. I unfortunately got involved with several before I learned to choose differently. I was raised to "help and rescue" the strays, but it got me too involved with people, both men in relationships and women as friends, who would absolutely drain me with their own dysfunctional behavior. I felt obligated to put up with it because they were so needy. Not now. Live and learn.
It's hard to let go, but I think you understand that it is best to let go of unhealthy relationships. Have compassion for them at a distance, but don't let them abuse you by being close to them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: Tannywheeler
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 12:50 PM

I can't quite say "been there, done that; wore out the T-shirt". I know 2 almost-relationships that(from what I learned later about the Other) would have been seriously sick, flawed, dangerous. I was saved from them by accidental circumstances.

But notice: several of the postings here have mentioned that the stress you are living with in this instance is UNHEALTHY. Even if the other person poses no active physical threat, the slashing of your emotional/psychological health and the effect that could have on your physical well-being, is real and serious. Ditto to "Protect yourself".               Tw


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 05:34 PM

Seems to be a lot of mudcatters standing in your shoes with their knickers down.


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Subject: RE: BS: Help mend my broken heart
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jun 06 - 08:13 AM

Previous guest, if you've nothing useful to say and are only going to make cheap comments you're not being any help at all.


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