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Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!

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GUEST,Jean, Ivybridge 24 Jul 06 - 05:13 AM
JamesHenry 24 Jul 06 - 05:34 AM
GUEST,Keith 24 Jul 06 - 05:41 AM
The Borchester Echo 24 Jul 06 - 06:40 AM
GUEST,Jon 24 Jul 06 - 07:12 AM
GUEST,Roots'y Toots'y 24 Jul 06 - 07:20 AM
GUEST,Helpful 24 Jul 06 - 07:25 AM
GUEST,Jon 24 Jul 06 - 07:34 AM
GUEST,countrylife 24 Jul 06 - 08:36 AM
The Borchester Echo 24 Jul 06 - 08:54 AM
Dave Hanson 24 Jul 06 - 09:13 AM
GUEST 24 Jul 06 - 09:26 AM
Dave Hanson 24 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM
JamesHenry 24 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM
countrylife 24 Jul 06 - 10:03 AM
JamesHenry 24 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM
GUEST,Countrylife Lover 24 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,countrylife 24 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM
JamesHenry 24 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM
GUEST,Countrylife Lover 24 Jul 06 - 01:34 PM
GUEST,Jon 24 Jul 06 - 02:23 PM
GUEST,Union Jack 24 Jul 06 - 02:39 PM
The Borchester Echo 24 Jul 06 - 04:37 PM
JamesHenry 24 Jul 06 - 04:43 PM
JamesHenry 24 Jul 06 - 04:49 PM
GUEST,stigweard 24 Jul 06 - 04:53 PM
Mr Fox 25 Jul 06 - 05:54 AM
Scrump 25 Jul 06 - 06:15 AM
alanabit 25 Jul 06 - 06:17 AM
Mr Fox 25 Jul 06 - 08:43 AM
countrylife 25 Jul 06 - 08:50 AM
Scrump 25 Jul 06 - 09:07 AM
countrylife 25 Jul 06 - 09:17 AM
Lizzie Cornish 25 Jul 06 - 10:36 AM
Scrump 25 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM
GUEST,Liam 25 Jul 06 - 11:02 AM
Mr Fox 25 Jul 06 - 11:15 AM
Cllr 25 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM
JamesHenry 25 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM
Cllr 25 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM
countrylife 25 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM
Cllr 25 Jul 06 - 11:21 AM
countrylife 25 Jul 06 - 11:34 AM
Lizzie Cornish 25 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM
Lizzie Cornish 25 Jul 06 - 11:45 AM
GUEST,Welsh is a drink 25 Jul 06 - 11:54 AM
JamesHenry 25 Jul 06 - 12:24 PM
Lizzie Cornish 25 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM
GUEST,Jon 25 Jul 06 - 01:00 PM
Scrump 26 Jul 06 - 04:31 AM
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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jean, Ivybridge
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:13 AM

I have just surfed in to this board and cant believe the meanderings of some people.

How can anyone knock Roots, however it is sung? What lyrics! Such an anthem for this country for those of us who are proud to be english, born here and totally pissed off with the hierarchy (including Countess Richard) who dont understand what it is all about.

Steve Knightley has written this fabulous song, which we all should be singing. Not to be slagged off by the likes of some on here.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:34 AM

Just found a photo of the band. They look like they drink most of the Beer Knightly. It's a very clever song and should appeal to all who fall for the patriotic, anti immigration claptrap that prevails at the moment in some circles.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Keith
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 05:41 AM

Anyone that wants to actually listen to the live version of Roots just needs to go about 50 minutes into that Radio Lancashire programme (it is the last song), to which there is a link above.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 06:40 AM

Ms Ivybridge

Fortunately many people DO realise what Roots is about (apart from boosting the dishevelled duo's bank balance). James Henry puts it well: a clever song in a highly dangerous way, divide and rule, blame somebody else. I'm not suggesting for a minute that Beer & Knightley are far-right manipulators, just that this sort of whingeing claptrap encourages those already of this tendency. The theme is highly derivative and offers no solutions. Added to which, the song is musically flawed and the production (on Witness is rubbish. Yes, Keith, I believe you when you say it sounds better live but I . . . really . . . can't . . . be . . . arsed.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:12 AM

Could someone explain to me how Show Of Hands have come as far as they have

By tending towards being a more commercially orientated pop group with thier own sort of "cult following". They found thier niche and use it well.


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Subject: Lyr Add: ROOTS (Steve Knightley)
From: GUEST,Roots'y Toots'y
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:20 AM

'Roots' by Steve Knightley

Now it's been twenty-five years or more
I've roamed this land from shore to shore
From Tyne to Tamar, Severn to Thames
From Moor to Vale from Peak to Fen
Played in cafes and pubs and bars
I've stood in the street with my old guitar
But I'd be richer than all the rest
If I had a pound for each request
For "Duelling Banjos", "American Pie"
It's enough to make you cry
"Rule Britannia" or "Swing low",
Are they the only songs the English know?



"After the speeches when the cake's been cut
The disco's over and the bar is shut
Funeral, wedding, birthday, wake
What can we sing until the morning breaks?
But Indian, Asian, Afro-Celt
It's in the blood, below the belt
Singing and dancing all night long
What have they got right that we've got wrong.

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, roots
They need roots.

Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
On the rocky shores of England

And the Minister says his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
Pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone is staring at a TV screen
Overpaid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estury English, Baseball cap

We learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk
Without our stories or our songs
How will we know where we came from?
I've lost St. George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back

Seed, bud, flower, fruit
Never gonna grow without their roots
Branch, stem, roots
They need roots

And haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
On the rocky shores of England"



Those words are nothing to do with the far right, they are not anti-immigration either. But, they will be twisted and used in that context to once more criticise Show Of Hands, by those who have worked so very hard on messageboards in many places, to rubbish them at every opportunity. They have failed over and over again in their bizarre mission, but this won't stop them of course, as can be seen from above.

There is nothing wrong in being proud of your country, your heritage, your roots or your music, no matter where you come from, what shade of the skin spectrum you are on, or where you may be currently living.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Helpful
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:25 AM

You can listen to the whole song under the final song title here:

http://show-of-hands.tripod.com/witness.html


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 07:34 AM

Out of curiosity, what do you consider to be your roots in music Lizzie?

They have failed over and over again in their bizarre mission, but this won't stop them of course, as can be seen from above.

I think you are having another of your fantasies here. I'm not aware of anyone remotely imagining they could actually stop SOH, let alone try to do it.
What I do see is that some people like SOH and others (myself included) do not and that you get kind of excited when views that do not agree with your own are expressed.

Personally I could not care less whether anyone likes them or not.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:36 AM

....and predictably, Steve Knightly has been called 'right-wing', 'anti- immigration' and whatever other epithets you feel you need to hurl at him. Let me quote Brendan Behan on this one, he sums it up perfectly I think. " critics are like eunuchs in a harem:they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves." 'nuff said.

"Haul away boys let them go
Out in the wind and the rain and snow
We've lost more than we'll ever know
Round the rocky shores of England"


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 08:54 AM

What I said was:

'I'm not suggesting for a minute that Beer & Knightley are far-right manipulators, just that this sort of whingeing claptrap encourages those already of this tendency'

What Guest, John Henry said was:

' . . . [Roots} should appeal to all who fall for the patriotic, anti immigration claptrap that prevails at the moment in some circles

No-one hurled any such epithets mentioned in "Guest, countrylife"s'' post. What people here are criticising is ranting as a substitute for songwriting, poor production, ragged live performances, being out of tune, and general dishevelledness.

And no-one has any intention of trying to stop them. If they're on at a festival you can always head rapidly for another stage leaving those who apparently favour their sort of MOR soft pub-rock to it.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:13 AM

Oi Roots'y Toots'y, the Birdie Song and the Spitting Image Chicken Song both sold enough copies to get into the hit parade, popularity alone doesn't make a song ' good '

eric


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:26 AM

dishevelled and proud of it...but there again I've earned that right to be dishevelled....

And a minister said his vision of hell
Is three folk singers in a pub near Wells
Well I've got a vision of urban sprawl
Its pubs where no one ever sings at all
And everyone stares at a great big screen
Over-paid soccer stars, prancing teens
Australian soap, American rap
Estuary English, baseball caps


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 09:46 AM

Why do you keep repeating the words? this is the fourth time now, once was quite sufficient, or is it that you think, the more you repeat it, the more people will like it?

eric


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:01 AM

We learn to be ashamed before we walk
Of the way we look and the way we talk - Do we? I never have and I never did.

Without our stories and our songs
How will we know where we came from? - I've never experienced an identity crisis.

I've lost St. George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it back. - Oh dear! If that doesn't give the impression that someone has hi-jacked the English culture and that fingers will be pointed at the usual suspects then correct me if I'm wrong. Perhaps the words should have been chosen more carefully?

Brendan Behan would have shat on the sentiments expressed.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:03 AM

at the risk of repeating myself and Brendan Behan one more time...I will...LOL

" critics are like eunuchs in a harem: they know how it's done, they've seen it done every day, but they're unable to do it themselves."

I like Show Of Hands, always will do as well...I'm not politically correct, never will be either, besides I leave politics to the "experts"

Transmission ends.....


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 10:15 AM

From countrylife

"I'm not politically correct, never will be either...."

Says it all!

You're not a eunuch are you?

Why do I ask?

Because there doesn't seem to be any balls in your argument.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Countrylife Lover
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:23 AM

Now now....boys....calm down. 'Roots' always get people going....that's why it's such a great song, causes heated discussion, in exactly the same way Country Life did too.

Always the mark of a Knightley Song.

JamesHenry, I don't think you have a leg to stand on, or indeed anything else to shout about, after your words above.

This is the quote from countrylife "I'm not politically correct, never will be either...."

This is the quote from you "Says it all!"

This is from me. Oh really JamesHenry! So, you mean that anyone who has the guts to still have their own thoughts and not those they are ordered to have, is a eunnuch now? You mean that if you dare to say you are not politically correct, then you must surely be racist? Is that what you mean? Surely not, perhaps you'd like to explain, for I'd hate to get the wrong end of the stick.

The whole point of 'I've lost St. George in the Union Jack' means to me that it's apparently OK to be British, Scottish, Irish or Welsh, but very non OK to even begin to imagine yourself as English. The English truly have become 'lost' within this Disunited Kingdom. How did that ever happen? It is one of the strangest things to have ever happened in our history.

Most young English people these days couldn't tell you much, if anything, about their past, their heritage, their music, their songs, their dances. If you can get them to even hear you, over the sound of the football on the giant sized screens, in your local pub, you could try asking them and see the bizarre looks you get. Then go and do the same thing in Ireland and see what happens there, if you can get them to hear you, over the sound of traditional music being joyfully played by young and old alike that is.

"Hello, is that The Eunnuch's Room? We've another coming down. His name? Why yes, it's JamesHenry"

Give me a man who thinks for himself and who has the guts to say what he feels everytime.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,countrylife
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 11:48 AM

"then...down to The Wagon and 'Orses...half a pint...that's all we can afford...a good oldarguement about Mr. Gladstone, then a song, and that's it for the night men..."

that's what pubs were all about at one time...that quote is from a fairly well known book..about...England, a particular part of England.I'll take me fiddle, or guitar into a pub with me, but I'd probably get looked at strangely or get told to leave, and that's what it's all about isn't it?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 12:51 PM

Countrylife Lover


What on earth are you raving on about?
Did you even read my post or did the red mist descend when you perceived a criticism of Roots, blocking any reasoned understanding
of the content.
Nowhere have I accused anyone of racism. What I have made reference to is the possibility that certain lyrics in the song could strike a chord with the evil bastards in our society who beat the racist drum behind the banner of patriotism. I'm in no way saying that this was the writers' intention, just that the words are open to interpretation.
As for the young people in our society, you don't seem to hold out much hope for them. I think that you grossly underestimate their ability to discover things for themselves and to make their own minds up. The Irish comparison you draw gave me a laugh though. The impression I got was that when you step off the boat in Ireland you find yourself in a scene from Darby O'Gill and the Little People.
I'm sad to say that until you can see past your blinkered view of the little ditty that is Roots then the end of the stick that you will always get will be the shitty end.
Oh! Down here in the eunnuchs' room I've employed my expertise as a pioneer of the ball trasplant and I'm having a ball working my way through the hareem.


Do your nurses know that you have access to a computer?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Countrylife Lover
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 01:34 PM

Glad you explained yourself JamesHenry, that's what I wanted to hear.
So you're basically saying then that the English can never again say they're proud to be English, as the Scottish, Irish or Welsh can, quite openly, for if they do those, what was it you said "the evil bastards in our society who beat the racist drum behind the banner of patriotism." will once more raise their ugly heads.

Well, we may as well all give up and go home then! I mean, if we're content to let The Evil Bastards win every time, never to sing songs about who we are, never to dare ever be allowed to be patriotic for fear of The Evil Bastards, what's the point?

They've won haven't they! The Good Men And True have all walked away into the mist of wimpishness called political correctness. Take down the flags, remove the history, prostrate yourself at all times JamesHenry, for that is the only way to be English in your opinion it would seem.

I care not what colour an Englishman's skin is, but I care about the state of his soul and what he believes in, and I believe he/she has a right to be proud of who they are and what their country stands for in the world.

So tell me, what do you think people think of these days, when they think of England?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:23 PM

The whole point of 'I've lost St. George in the Union Jack' means to me that it's apparently OK to be British, Scottish, Irish or Welsh, but very non OK to even begin to imagine yourself as English.

Seems ill thought out to me then. Where is St David in the Union Jack?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Union Jack
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 02:39 PM

When I first came into being in 1606, Wales was united with England.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:37 PM

Where do you begin when those with the mentality of 'lizziecornish' (who also knows precious little about the history and politics of union within these islands) fail to equate the divide-and-rule tactics of imperialism with those of a would-be supremacist ascendancy within a single land? Political correctness means showing equal respect to all within a diverse society, regardless of gender (this includes not demeaning both men and women with stupid terms like 'boysies' and 'girlies), ethnic origin (not patronising those from other cultures like they were novelty musicians who you can pay less cos they're not used to the sort of fee indigenous bands get, whoopee) or a brand of belief, whether religious or just a view from crumbling high moral ground, as superior to any other and generally assuming that Britannia still rules the waves. And a person of colour is never 'English' though they may be a UK citizen.

To quote Billy Bragg:

Oh look out, my country's patriots are hunting down below
What do they know of England who only England know?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:43 PM

Countrylife Lover

Can I have a few pints of what your on?
If you're reading my posts I'm at a loss to understand how you have interpreted them to mean that, "the English can never again say that they are proud to be English."
Are you ill?
You seem to have twisted my words to fit your own agenda, whatever that might be.
I've never read such a load of bollocks (sorry eunnucs)
And as for asking complete strangers to prostrate themselves and think of England, I'd like to oblige but only on the second date.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:49 PM

Balls (sorry eunuchs)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,stigweard
Date: 24 Jul 06 - 04:53 PM

Been away from the thread for a while so nice to see it's generated some healthy debate.

But Gargoyle, what are you talking about?

Half-frog? Anglophile view? World or American forum?

Anyway, it must be a good thing if the track is generating such interest.

stigWeard with no cookie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 05:54 AM

Much as I hate to agree with James Henry and much as I love 'Country Life' (Song and album), this one is too near the knuckle. Parts of it sound like a BNP marching song.

Oh, and where does Knightly get off with the 'estuary English' crack? I was born in South London and have lived there and in Kent all my life (so far). What upper-class (and now, evidently, west country) snobs decry is my natural accent. Does that make me 'alien' or any less 'English'? They may THINK so..........


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:15 AM

Just to add my 5p's worth, and probably kill this thread off for good, I seem to have that effect on people round here :(

I believe the song is just a rant against the fact that English culture and identity (including English folk music) has been suppressed in the name of political correctness - the reference to Kim Howells makes that clear to me. As someone else said above, it seems OK to go around celebrating your Irishness, Scottishness or Welshness in Britain, but not your Englishness - that is apparently considered racist by anyone who is not English themselves. Steve is simply saying 'Why can't I celebrate being English in the same way as everyone else can celebrate their nationality?'.

OK, the lyrics could be misinterpreted by those who don't listen properly to be a BNP-type anthem, but I don't think that's a reason for condemning the song.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: alanabit
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 06:17 AM

To be fair to Steve, I think he is referring more to a generic "Sarf Landun sahnd", which is adopted by people, who have either moved to the South East from other parts of the UK, or is used to try to sound more hip in other places. That sort of intonation has reached as far West as Plymouth. I do not read it as a swipe at any real local accent.
With regard to the merits - or otherwise - of his songwriting, I think I shall stay out of this thread.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:43 AM

Maybe you're right, Alan. And after having my accent criticised since school, perhaps I'm over-sensitive - but that remark stung. (I like Steve Knightley's songwriting most of the time, btw, it's just this one that rankles a bit).


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 08:50 AM

Mr Fox,

you got ragged for your accent..imagine being from Birmingham...like me *LOL* (and yes I still have the accent as well)
Have a great day everyone!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:07 AM

I think alanabit is right - "Estuary English" referred to in the song refers to the way certain (but not all) features of the accent from the Thames estuary has spread to the rest of the country, making local accents less common than they were. This is often affected by people trying to improve their street cred. Public-school (i.e. private school) educated Tony Blair is an example - he often affects glottal stops. to make himself seem like an "ordinary person" and not a toff.

Steve's lyric is not having a go at the accent of people in the south-east, just the way people affect EE in a kind of inverted snobbery, or alternatively because it's felt by some to be more "cool" than a regional accent.

There's a good article on Estuary English
here.

(My first ever attempt at a blue clicky... wahey, it works!) :-D

Although I love the song, I must admit that (typical of him) the lyric tends to stray off-target a bit with the ranting about "overpaid soccer stars, prancing teens..." but I agree with it all ;-)


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 09:17 AM

here's another very good webpage concerning "Estuary English" a more personal take rather than academic


Gary's (Estuary) Homepage


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:36 AM

OK, well...I wasn't going to come back under my name, but....I can't keep quiet any longer! Apologies to Joe and Max.

I'm ranting! Take cover!!

Right, I'm down here in the West Country. Perhaps you need to live down here to understand where Steve is coming from. The Devon/Cornish accent is very rarely heard amongst the young these days, they could all come from Sarf London. That to me is so sad. Just one particular accent has apparently been deemed 'acceptable' by the media and that's 'Estury English', although you're still a bit cool if you come from New Cassssell, at least on Children's TV you are!

The whole point of what Steve's talking about is ROOTS!

Hello?????

It's this feeling that we can no longer BE who we ARE, that everyone has become so commercialised, so ready to take on whatever they're told is the next big thing. EVERYTHING is disappearing, today it's the West Country accent, tomorrow it'll be the Birmingham one, then the Norfolk...actuallly, that's another place where I don't hear young people speaking in their 'natural' accents anymore, again..Estury English.

There's NOTHING wrong with Estury, nothing! It just doesn't belong in Devon, Cornwall or Norfolk, it belongs in a very small part of London, where it's the *natural* accent, as opposed to other parts of London where the accent is again slightly different. When we went to Yorkshire last year I was stunned to hear youngsters talking in a local accent, couldn't believe it! My ears were all agog and lapped it up, then I spent ages trying to copy it, listening to the vowels and curling my tongue up to get the right sound (OK Am Very Sad Person!) ;0) But it's lovely, it's fascinating and it's what makes us, US!!!!

Ey, Champion!

And as for 'over-paid soccer stars and prancing teens' that's not 'off-target AT ALL, it's bang right up to date and hitting the bullseye over and over. Just this morning I woke up to hear of some new Soccer Star (Star??) being transferred for £25 million..yes MILLION!

Yet...to quote Oxfam "every 3 seconds a child dies" ??????

So, that's OK then isn't it! I mean, heck, let's trample over the bodies of children so we can all get to see the highest paid soccer stars in the land, because, that's what life's about isn't it! Isn't it??????   

Oh HELL...I hope NOT!!!

And last night my town was *filled* with prancing teens, swigging back the lager, shouting, screeching and er...well, we won't go into *that* bit, but hey, use your imagination. The 'Prancing Teens' is surely a reference to the POP Idol/Fame Academy/Britney/Spice Girls culture that has surrounded our young people for a decade now. It's sucked the very *life* out of music, it's vacuous, morally bankrupt and driven by some Decidedly Deeply Dodgy people if you ask me, who personally, as a mother, I'm all up for investigating in minute detail!!

That music 'cultchur' has come right out, into fashion and toys as well. Small children being 'groomed' to like Britney, the Bratz Dolls for tiny tots, which make me shudder, but don't get me started on those, all dressed as Wannabee Pop Stars...or er..prancing teens...Get 'em early, brainwash 'em at every opportunity and voila! The next generation to keep those fat dodgy cats grinning with slimey satisfaction from ear to ear....Sheesh! Give my FIVE minutes with those Cutthroats Crooks and Conmen and I'd wipe the slimey smiles from their faces instantly!!!

Steve's not gone off-track at all!! He's right there in the very thick of it all.

£25 million for a footballer??? And these guys are being held up as heroes to our children???? WHY??? I mean, I'm fair exhausted with trying to figure it all out...so if someone can tell me WHY David Beckham or Wayne Rooney are 'heroes' I would LOVE to know!

And Kim Howells? Well wasn't that a reference to live music being played in pubs. I mean heck, let's just scrap the music, get in the HUGE MEGA TV'S, maybe a casino or two...and let's take the Nation to a whole new HIGH!! Stick ENG..ER..LAND flags up during the World Cup and imprison people if they DARE to fly an English Flag at any other time!!!

Have we all lost our marbles?????

And what does the population do? Are we taking to the streets in rage? Are we writing to the papers in disbelief? Are we ringing up the BBC or ITV and complaining in our thousands? Are we boycotting shops selling weird things?

Nope, we're apparently not able to get enough of it all, well some can't anyway. Cries of "BRING IT ON!" can be heard throughout the land!

Worrying isn't it? Unless you're an apathetic, short-sighted, vaccuous, empty-headed, lager-swilling, one-hit wonder, prancing, over-paid footballing twit!!...In which case, the world's never been so great!

Jumping Catfish! It's enough to bring on a Rebellion!

So don't....DON'T tell me that Roots could be deemed to be a BNP anthem....because it's NOTHING of the sort! I mean are you seriously trying to put my Blood Pressure up even HIGHER in the hope that I'll self-combust???

'Roots' a song that should wake us all up, please GOD, before we disappear down a Black Hole so Deep and so Dark that we may never get out again!!


And now, I'm off to listen to Liege & Lief to calm myself down...although it probably won't, because then I'll get all jiggly about beautiful folk music that's never played because 'the media' have written it out of the picture....apparently because they KNOW we'd all rather be watching Big Brother and Posh'n'Becks than daring to hear songs of beauty, history, or intrigue.

Aaarrrgggghhh!


Lizzie!!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 10:55 AM

"Lizzie Cornish" wrote: "And as for 'over-paid soccer stars and prancing teens' that's not 'off-target AT ALL, it's bang right up to date and hitting the bullseye over and over. Just this morning I woke up to hear of some new Soccer Star (Star??) being transferred for £25 million..yes MILLION!"

And the "prancing teens"? Where do they come into it? :-)

I obviously didn't express myself very well - I just meant that ranting about soccer stars being overpaid has - as far as I can see - folk-all to do with the main target of the song, i.e. the loss of English identity and culture.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Liam
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:02 AM

>>I'm off to listen to Liege & Lief to calm myself down<<

Wonder if the writer of Matty Groves ever got told off for "glorifying aldultery"? Mind you message boards and "political correctness" hadn't been invented back then, so perhaps not.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Mr Fox
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:15 AM

[i]"Lizzie Cornish" wrote: "And as for 'over-paid soccer stars and prancing teens' that's not 'off-target AT ALL, it's bang right up to date and hitting the bullseye over and over. Just this morning I woke up to hear of some new Soccer Star (Star??) being transferred for £25 million..yes MILLION!"

"Scrump" wrote And the "prancing teens"? Where do they come into it? :-)

I obviously didn't express myself very well - I just meant that ranting about soccer stars being overpaid has - as far as I can see - folk-all to do with the main target of the song, i.e. the loss of English identity and culture.[/i]

Come to that, the spread of one particular accent isn't about the loss of English identity either. Loss of REGIONAL identity, maybe. And, if there is a 'generic' accent that is spreading nationwide, it's not 'estuary' anyway - it's, I don't know what to call it, 'Jamaican Cockney?' Ali G? The one with all the 'innits' anyway.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM

First I still think SOH are brill and certainly not MOR IMVHO
secondly I thought it was bloody obvious what the song was about and scrump got bang on the money.
thirdly I think i do understand a little about politics and history,
and the ludicrous argument that allows no other view point is simply that ludicrous. (Karl Popper put it better than that)

the biggest problem, aside from the belittlement by people who should know better, to quote scrumpy"- that is apparently considered racist by anyone who is not English themselves. Steve is simply saying 'Why can't I celebrate being English in the same way as everyone else can celebrate their nationality" take a look a the darkie day threads

as for language and copying accents I can only qoute ali G a big Wassup fom the staines Massive west london stlyee!


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:17 AM

The prancing teens in your town have probably observed some patrons of the folk festival "swigging back lager, shouting, screeching and er.....well we won't go into *that*" and used them as their role models?
The general tone of your post would suggest that if you are not already institutionalised then you should be, comfortably tucked up in a ward for the terminally deluded.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM

James dont be abusive, it says more about you than it does lizzie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:19 AM

>>I'm off to listen to Liege & Lief to calm myself down<<

>>Wonder if the writer of Matty Groves ever got told off for "glorifying adultery"?<<

Would the "politically correct" term it "a woman expressing her inner desires"?...just asking

But the murder scence would be censored as not being constructive to dealing with the situation....


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Cllr
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:21 AM

In fact those of you familiar with Robb Johnsons work should be familiar with his lyrics whic are opposed to the "celebrity culture" type of thing foisted on us by the tabloids and channel four Z celebrities talent less shows currently dominating the media.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: countrylife
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:34 AM

for those of You who want to hear Robb Johnson go to:

Robb Johnson


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:43 AM

From Patch Adams.....a man whom many in this country should learn more about:

"Our system of "people fame" values self-centeredness and wealth. I want to live in a world where people become famous because of their work for peace and justice and care. I want the famous to be inspiring; their lives an example of what every human being has it in them to do — act from love!"

You can read more about Patch and his Gesundheit Institution right here:

http://www.patchadams.org/

I am not mad..but I am MAD!

I am not insane....but I'm at times driven almost to the point of insanity by apathetic wimps who have buried their heads so deep in the English soil, that they can no longer see, hear or feel what is all around them!

I have not sold my soul to the Devil Of Commercialised Dumbing Down, nor will I ever....and I will rant, rage and rejoice about people who write songs about what is happening in this country...and around the world too, because I'm fair fed up with being fed a diet of Fast Food Music, filled with additives consisting of mind-numbing substances that seem to be turning people 'off' in droves!!

"We've lost more than we'll ever know round the rocky shores of England"

And..did someone mention Robb Johnson?
http://www.myspace.com/irregularrobbjohnson

I made my Christmas Cake to his 'Tony Blair My Part In His Downfall' the year before last....thwacked those raisins in with such power, the angrier he made me with his words.....another powerful songwriter who sees right through everything....

And now....if you'll excuse me I am away with Fair Reynardine, who is calling me through the mists, across the miles.......

Lizzie


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:45 AM

Woops! Sorry....Robb got posted twice there!

Cross posting I think it's called...and boy! Am I CROSS!! ;0)

Two minds....with but a single thought.....


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Welsh is a drink
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 11:54 AM

I don't know what all the fuss is about these idiots. Don't you mud people ever get out into the real world and hear some decent bands?


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: JamesHenry
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:24 PM

Poster 11:19 AM

What's abusive Cllr? The bit about the role models or the reference to Ms Cornishs' state of mind?

I suppoose that as we're on the subject of Englishness I could amend that to "terminally eccentric," it's cosier than "nuts".

Perhaps you're her knight in shining armour, one of the "Good Men and True" that she is calling on to turn back the clock - King Arthur rising from his sleep?

What I said wasn't abusive, it was stating the obvious.
If I wanted to be abusive (which I try not to be) I'd certainly make a better fist of it than in the post you replied to.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Lizzie Cornish
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 12:45 PM

Cllr, I'd perhaps ignore er...'JamesHenry' most of his/her posts are purely to take a dig at me...saying nothing is the best way.

Now this is an excellent review of Witness, and mention of 'Roots' is about half way down, says it all I guess...

From Spiral Earth:

>>>Witness
Show Of Hands

"Show Of Hands are widely touted as 'England's most popular acoustic roots duo', Witness confirms that they are also the most innovative, observant and relevant English musicians around.

Production by Simon Emmerson and Simon Massey has resulted in a confident enveloping sound, the mixing accentuates the layers of vocals and instrumentation. It's not a huge departure from their past work yet it feels more coloured, surer of itself. Beer and Knightley's musicianship is, as we have come to expect, of the highest order. The alchemy between them is in their arrangements, lifting their music away from divides of genre.

Never one to avoid harsh reality, Knightley has penned another of his acerbic epics in the second track Roots. We are living in confusing times, we have a government that is less in touch with the people and the country every day, a government which has never been in touch with rural affairs. Where Country Life decried this lack of understanding by our city bound politicians Roots takes the bit between it's teeth and gets to the heart of what it means to be English. Putting it succinctly:

'Without our stories or our songs
how will we know where we've come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it Back'

This where Show Of Hands are so damn relevant, From their West Country roots they have picked apart the fabric of our country and are holding up the warp and weft for our inspection. Whether we heed the warning is up to us.

The sense of place is as strong as ever, Knightley says 'Every original song on the CD is a first person narrative or testimonial. incidents and events are witnessed and recorded and every narrator is a different character. It's really a series of scenes from a cinematic style journey of the West Country.'

It's their connection to their roots that results in the timeless feel of many of the tracks, thankfully Phil Beer gets to sing the lead on a couple of tracks on this album. He has a great voice and it's good to hear it on some upbeat songs, notably the foot stomping Falmouth Packet/Haul Away Joe.

Knightley's writing reveals a deep understanding of the human condition, and often the conflicting joy and melancholy that lies at it's heart. The closing track All I'd Ever Lost is a touching evocation of life's triumphs and regrets.

Everything has come together perfectly on this recording, the best Show Of Hands album ever? it's certainly the best album we've heard so far this year..." Iain Hazlewood<<<<

Here's the link:

http://www.spiralearth.co.uk/reviews/witnessAlbum.htm


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 25 Jul 06 - 01:00 PM

Without our stories or our songs
how will we know where we've come from?
I've lost St George in the Union Jack
It's my flag too and I want it Back'

This where Show Of Hands are so damn relevant,


I'm sure you will find large numbers of people in Scotland and Ireland (and Wales if they were shown of the flag) who would gladly remove thier bits from the flag if that would make it easier for you to find St George on it.


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Subject: RE: Show of Hands - Roots - what a track!
From: Scrump
Date: 26 Jul 06 - 04:31 AM

GUEST,Jon wrote: "I'm sure you will find large numbers of people in Scotland and Ireland (and Wales if they were shown of the flag) who would gladly remove thier bits from the flag if that would make it easier for you to find St George on it."
------------------------------------------

Unless it was intended as a wind-up (I infer GUEST,Jon isn't English himself), the above remark just shows how people can misinterpret the sentiment expressed in "Roots".

The song is not saying the English want the Scots or Welsh, or any other race, to be thrown out of England (although there are one or two Scots and Welshmen in high places that I for one would be glad to see the back of ;-)).

Rather it is saying we (the English) want to be able to be proud of our nationality and culture in the same way that the Welsh and Scots are proud of their roots. Political "correctness" (I really hate that expression, but I have to use it because everyone knows what it means and there's no alternative phrase) has increasingly dictated that to be proud of being English is some kind of sin - at worst, racist.

Witness the banning of flying St George's flags by certain local authorities for fear of causing offence to non-English people; allowing a St Patrick's Day parade in London (nothing wrong in that, mind) but not a St George's Day one; and many other examples that I won't bore people with.

Of course if, for example, Scotland went the whole hog and became completely independent, then I wouldn't mind that - it's entirely up to the people of Scotland.


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