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BS: Winning Friends in Iraq

Ron Davies 14 Jun 06 - 06:16 AM
John MacKenzie 14 Jun 06 - 06:20 AM
Ron Davies 14 Jun 06 - 06:28 AM
Ron Davies 14 Jun 06 - 06:38 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Jun 06 - 08:29 AM
GUEST,Woody 14 Jun 06 - 09:42 AM
GUEST,leeneia 14 Jun 06 - 09:46 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Jun 06 - 09:47 AM
Peace 14 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Jun 06 - 09:54 AM
Peace 14 Jun 06 - 09:58 AM
Peace 14 Jun 06 - 10:00 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Jun 06 - 10:05 AM
GUEST,Rufus 14 Jun 06 - 10:05 AM
CarolC 14 Jun 06 - 02:16 PM
robomatic 14 Jun 06 - 06:02 PM
Little Hawk 14 Jun 06 - 06:19 PM
282RA 14 Jun 06 - 07:47 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Jun 06 - 08:04 PM
GUEST 14 Jun 06 - 09:34 PM
Ron Davies 14 Jun 06 - 09:46 PM
282RA 14 Jun 06 - 10:16 PM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Jun 06 - 10:26 PM
CarolC 14 Jun 06 - 10:54 PM
282RA 14 Jun 06 - 11:01 PM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Jun 06 - 06:16 AM
The Fooles Troupe 15 Jun 06 - 06:27 AM
CarolC 15 Jun 06 - 11:56 AM
Ron Davies 15 Jun 06 - 11:30 PM
Barry Finn 16 Jun 06 - 12:09 AM
CarolC 16 Jun 06 - 12:09 AM
Ron Davies 17 Jun 06 - 12:13 AM
catspaw49 17 Jun 06 - 12:36 AM
GUEST,Woody 17 Jun 06 - 08:45 AM
Ron Davies 17 Jun 06 - 09:01 AM
GUEST,Woody 17 Jun 06 - 09:03 AM
CarolC 17 Jun 06 - 11:14 AM
Barry Finn 17 Jun 06 - 01:35 PM
DougR 17 Jun 06 - 04:44 PM
Ron Davies 17 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jun 06 - 05:12 PM
Greg F. 17 Jun 06 - 06:38 PM
Little Hawk 17 Jun 06 - 06:49 PM
GUEST,Fernando 17 Jun 06 - 10:46 PM
Ron Davies 18 Jun 06 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,mg 18 Jun 06 - 10:41 PM
GUEST,Fernando 18 Jun 06 - 11:32 PM
CarolC 18 Jun 06 - 11:36 PM
Barry Finn 19 Jun 06 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,Fernando 19 Jun 06 - 09:59 AM
Greg F. 19 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM
282RA 19 Jun 06 - 04:37 PM
CarolC 19 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM
DougR 19 Jun 06 - 08:04 PM
Barry Finn 19 Jun 06 - 09:57 PM
CarolC 19 Jun 06 - 10:29 PM
Ron Davies 19 Jun 06 - 11:40 PM
GUEST,Woody 20 Jun 06 - 01:59 AM
CarolC 20 Jun 06 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,Fernando 20 Jun 06 - 08:39 PM
Ron Davies 20 Jun 06 - 09:11 PM
Susu's Hubby 20 Jun 06 - 11:11 PM
CarolC 20 Jun 06 - 11:36 PM
Amos 20 Jun 06 - 11:36 PM
CarolC 20 Jun 06 - 11:39 PM
Barry Finn 21 Jun 06 - 01:56 AM
GUEST,Fernando 21 Jun 06 - 09:40 AM
Rapparee 21 Jun 06 - 11:55 AM
CarolC 21 Jun 06 - 12:04 PM
GUEST,Woody 22 Jun 06 - 12:01 AM
GUEST,Woody 22 Jun 06 - 12:13 AM
dianavan 22 Jun 06 - 03:00 AM
Barry Finn 22 Jun 06 - 03:45 AM
GUEST,Fernando 22 Jun 06 - 11:39 PM
Ebbie 23 Jun 06 - 01:13 AM
akenaton 23 Jun 06 - 03:10 AM
Ron Davies 23 Jun 06 - 09:39 PM
akenaton 23 Jun 06 - 09:54 PM
GUEST,Frank Hamilton 24 Jun 06 - 06:41 PM
CarolC 24 Jun 06 - 06:56 PM
CarolC 24 Jun 06 - 06:56 PM
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Subject: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:16 AM

"Video posted to the Internet, telling a tale about a US Marine killing members of an Iraqi family, is being condemned by an Islamic group and investigated by the Marine Corps."

"The four-minute video, called "Hadji Girl",, appears to be sung by a Marine in front of a cheering audience. The lyrics talk about the Marine gunning down members of an Iraqi woman's family after they confront him with automatic weapons".

"The singer is shown playing a guitar and singing about meeting an Iraqi woman and then being confronted by her brother and father, who have guns. The lyrics describe the Marine pulling the woman's little sister in front of him and watching blood spurt from her head."


Source: MSNBC (AP)--13 June 2006

Anybody heard anything about this? Was this video in fact done by a Marine?

If so, it tends to confirm what Murtha is saying--US forces are under such strain in Iraq that some are cracking. Not all, by a long shot--but it doesn't take many to sour relations in a big hurry--as we're already seeing. Al Jazeera will have a field day with this story--especially if it's true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:20 AM

Sounds like black propaganda to me.
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:28 AM

I have no idea if it is true. But have you ever heard Toby Keith's song "Courtesy of the Red White and Blue" --"we'll put a boot up your ass--it's the American way"? This would be a logical progression.

The idea of solving all problems with violence seems to be dear to Bush's heart--and those of his supporters. Their excuse here would be that the father and brother were armed. And there's a bit of "collateral damage".


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:38 AM

The singer also "sings about blowing the father and brother "to eternity".


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:29 AM

"Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind".

It happened in WWII too...

Both USA and Israel will have to live with a generation of tortured souls from the shady tasks they have been expected to undertake - it takes time to burst out - the USA learned nothing from Vietnam...


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:42 AM

American Girls and American Guys
We'll always stand up and salute
We'll always recognize
When we see Ole Glory Flying
There's a lot of men dead
So we can sleep in peace at night
When we lay down our head

My daddy served in the army
Where he lost his right eye
But he flew a flag out in our yard
Till the day that he died
He wanted my mother, my brother, my sister and me
To grow up and live happy
In the land of the free.

Now this nation that I love
Has fallen under attack
A mighty sucker punch came flying in
From somewhere in the back
Soon as we could see clearly
Through our big black eye
Man, we lit up your world
Like the 4th of July

Hey Uncle Sam
Put your name at the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And there's gonna be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And itll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Ahhh Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue

Ohhh Justice will be served
And the battle will rage
This big dog will fight
When you rattle his cage
And you'll be sorry that you messed with
The U.S. of A.
'Cause we'll put a boot in your ass
It's the American way

Hey Uncle Sam
Put your name at the top of his list
And the Statue of Liberty
Started shaking her fist
And the eagle will fly
And there's gonna be hell
When you hear Mother Freedom
Start ringing her bell
And itll feel like the whole wide world is raining down on you
Brought to you Courtesy of the Red White and Blue


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:46 AM

Two weeks ago I rode and talked for 2 hours on an airplane with a Medevac pilot on leave from Iraq. He said that originally the kids threw stones at Americans and gave a thumbs down signal. Now they smile and wave. He also said that the media consistently make things look bad.

He also said that if an Iraqi(s) shoots at Americans and is wounded himself, then it is his job to pick up the Americans and the Iraqi and take them all to the hospital for treatment.

I never heard that on the news. My husband, who is a great reader of history books, tells me that this is basically normal behavior in war.
--------
I am not in favor of Bush or the war, but I am in favor of gettng the whole story.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:47 AM

Omigod! we've been invaded by Marty's Neo-Con Mates!

But of course Woody didn't write that - he stole it from someone, just like the Bushies, they love to steal from others and take the credit!


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:52 AM

"Courtesy Of The Red, White And Blue
(The Angry American)
By (Toby Keith) © 2002 Tokeco Tunes (BMI)"

It was a song in response to the 9-11 events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:54 AM

Ah yes, - from the famous Album
"Obnoxious Yank Warmongering Propaganda Songs that Pissed Off the Rest of the World!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:58 AM

That about sums it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Peace
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:00 AM

However, it opens the door for a discussion about the differences between patriotic songs and propaganda songs. Might be a good music thread there assuming it hasn't already been done.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:05 AM

"the differences between patriotic songs and propaganda songs"

Depends on your viewpoint, and just how narrow it is...


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:05 AM

Be cereful bout trying to persent the whole pixture here leeneia. You will be deeclaired a Bushite.

One way infomation allowed here but tha other side ain't welcom. Ya can try though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 02:16 PM

Some joke...

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/14/marine.video.ap/index.html


JACKSONVILLE, North Carolina (AP) -- A Marine corporal seen in a video singing about killing members of an Iraqi family says the song was a joke.

""It's a song that I made up and it was nothing more than something supposed to be funny, based off a catchy line of a movie," Cpl. Joshua Belile said in Wednesday's Daily News of Jacksonville.

In a four-minute video called "Hadji Girl," a singer who appears to be a Marine tells a cheering audience about gunning down members of an Iraqi woman's family after they confront him with automatic weapons.

Belile, 23, apologized and said the song was not tied in any way to allegations that Marines killed as many as two dozen unarmed civilians in Haditha last year.

A Marine spokesman said Tuesday that officers were investigating.

Lt. Col. Scott Fazekas called the song "inappropriate and contrary to the high standards expected of all Marines."

Neither Belile nor officials at his base in Cherry Point immediately returned calls Wednesday from The Associated Press. Neither did officials at Camp Lejeune, the Corps' major base on the Atlantic coast.

The song tells a story of a Marine who falls in love with an Iraqi girl and is taken to meet her family. The girl's family shoots her and then attacks the Marine, who uses her younger sister as a shield and watches blood spray from her head.

He then sings about blowing the father and brother "to eternity."

"I think it was a joke that is trying to be taken seriously," said Belile, who learned the video was on the Internet after he returned from Iraq in March.

Belile said he wrote the song in September while in Iraq. He said his buddies pushed him on stage with his guitar. Someone taped the performance and posted it on the Internet, but it has since been removed.

"I will never perform this song again, and I will remove all video and text in relation to this that I have control of," he said.

Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said in light of recent allegations of atrocities committed by Marines in Haditha and other towns in Iraq, the video should be investigated by the Pentagon and Congress.

"The inappropriate actions of a few individuals should not be allowed to tarnish the reputation of all American military personnel," Awad said."


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:02 PM

Not by way of excuse but by way of explanation couldn't this be 'outside-the-green-zone black humor'?

(Can't think why this isn 't a song thread!)

The Doctor Demento Show used to play Kick Ass USA during and after Gulf War I.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 06:19 PM

Crowds of delighted people cheered the German troops when they entered the cities and towns of the Ukraine in WWII, and hailed them as liberators. The invading USA troops didn't get nearly that enthusiastic a welcome in Iraq, despite the fact that parallels can be drawn between Stalin and Saddam for their dictatorial brutality. But I trust the Americans, when they finally leave Iraq, will get about the same general popularity rating from the locals as the Germans did by '44-45 when they finally left the Ukraine and the other occupied-by-force territories of the Third Reich...


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: 282RA
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:47 PM

>>Two weeks ago I rode and talked for 2 hours on an airplane with a Medevac pilot on leave from Iraq. He said that originally the kids threw stones at Americans and gave a thumbs down signal. Now they smile and wave. He also said that the media consistently make things look bad.

He also said that if an Iraqi(s) shoots at Americans and is wounded himself, then it is his job to pick up the Americans and the Iraqi and take them all to the hospital for treatment.

I never heard that on the news. My husband, who is a great reader of history books, tells me that this is basically normal behavior in war.<<

Bullshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:04 PM

"He also said that if an Iraqi(s) shoots at Americans and is wounded himself, then it is his job to pick up the Americans and the Iraqi and take them all to the hospital for treatment."

Bullshit?

I will never trust YOU again then, you lying bastard 282RA, as I KNOW that this is the case for normal humanity.

Or are you saying that it _is_ US Govt (red necked neo-Con inspired!) POLICY NOT TO TREAT WOUNDED ENEMIES?


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:34 PM

At Guantanamo they fix the Jihadists up with new legs an such, fix their teeth, let a lot of them go back home and some of them try to kill some more Americans.

The Media focuses on every rumor and trys to make it out to be the truth so they can make a buck off of it.

I'll go with the fixer uppers instead of the jerks that exploit every rumor and insinuation for profit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:46 PM

So, as Carol's link points out, the video is not propaganda by al-Queda after all--but a real knee-slapper of a funny song.

Fascinating.

I'm sure Iraqis share the singer's sense of humor--or maybe not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: 282RA
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:16 PM

>>I will never trust YOU again then, you lying bastard 282RA, as I KNOW that this is the case for normal humanity. Or are you saying that it _is_ US Govt (red necked neo-Con inspired!) POLICY NOT TO TREAT WOUNDED ENEMIES?<<

I'm sick and goddamned tired of this stupid shit that the American media doesn't report on enough of the "good things" in Iraq. anyone who says that is a fucking weak-minded fool. Just read the headlines. They can't shut up about killing Zarqawi. How long they going to milk that? The guy's dead now get on with winning the fucking war and shut up already and bring our people home. Fuck Iraq, fuck the war on terror, fuck the new govt, fuck all you idiot war-supporters and Bush-lovers. I'm sick of your whiny-ass shit about the biased media. I don't want to hear it. Fina a legitimate bitch or shut the fuck up and quit copping out. If the war blows, have the courage to say it fucking blows. Don't whine to me about the biased media or I'll automatically assume you are just full of shit. If that's the best you can do to support the war, you have no business supporting it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:26 PM

I have nver suported the War in Iraq 282RA, and most especially our US-arselicking Prime Minister Little Johnny sending Aussie Troops to Iraq under lying false pretences...

ALL Media IS Biased...


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:54 PM

Yes, LH, you're probably right.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: 282RA
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 11:01 PM

But the media are NOT responsible for this war. You can't win friends in Iraq by militarily invading and occupying their country on false charges, e.g. WMD, 9-11 connections, yellowcake, Prague meetings, etc. There is NO WAY we can befriend Iraqis or anybody else with such an unbelievably belligerent, bellicose foreign policy.

If the U.S. was winning anything over there, don't tell me these media over here are going to bury it with bad news. Not gonna happen. They don't report anything good because not much good is happening over there. I'm as happy as anyone that Zarqawi is dead. Good riddance. But why was he there at all?? Because dimwit Dubby invaded Iraq with a tiny army and left the borders as porous as oatmeal and then acted like he never saw the insurgency coming--because he didn't. Okay, we got Zarqawi, hooray, now could we get back to actually trying to fight and win this war we started and can't stop?

What possible reason do the Iraqis have to like us?? We've ruined their economy, halted their lives and their progress, created an extremely valuable training ground for terrorists, gotten tens if not hundreds of thousands of them killed, we've killed and tortured many of them ourselves. I mean, I don't see how that would make Iraqis like us, do you?

Now how is the media's reporting of this make it in any wise biased? You want the media to report the good things? So do I. Here are a few examples of some good things I would like to see getting reported:

-Generals getting enough troops to accomplish something other than becoming convenient targets for IEDs.

-Fresh, better-trained troops that can fight battles and win hearts and minds.

-The insurgency being quelled.

-The militias disbanded.

-The new govt maintaining a well-trained, well-equipped military able to handle its own affairs and quell domestic disturbances and threats from foreign adversaries.

-All the terrorist leaders captured, tried and executed.

-Victory being declared.

-Our troops coming home.

Sound like too much to ask? Well, that's at least as much as it will take to get this job done. So until I start seeing these types of headlines, I don't think the media have much of anything good to report from Iraq, quite frankly.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 06:16 AM

Who said I don't agree with you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 06:27 AM

Hang on, missed this one...

"Victory being declared."

It already has. Rest Easy.

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:56 AM

Here's the video...

http://www.cair.com/video/marine-hadji-girl.wmv


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 11:30 PM

Thanks, Carol, for setting up the link to hear the song in question. Have you heard it--and if so what did you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Barry Finn
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:09 AM

The last line, the laughter through it all, says it all "They should have known they were working with the marines". What's the mentality here? A bit sick, this is beyoud gallow's humor, which is a survival coping mechanism. This is what I'd call a "red Flag song" & the military should take notice. Seems their choice of outlets is this song & the barrel of their guns. A sad state of affairs this new type of new military music is, beats a march(sick pun). A new chapter in war pychology & the affecton it's music(there's a workshop in here, somewhere).

Hi Ron, you asked, I think it's a sick reflection of a sick society & it's ills.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jun 06 - 12:09 AM

Were you able to listen, Ron? Since posting the link, I haven't been able to get into the CAIR website.

I did hear it, and I think it's very unfortunate that our Marines have been trained to have such a callous disregard for the humanity of the people they say they are over there to help.

I think it's unfortunate for at least two reasons... the first being that that such disregard for humanity is probably one of the biggest reasons the US military is failing so miserably in accomplishing its stated goals in Iraq. The other reason being that this attitude is probably directly responsible for the deaths of many US servicemen and women (by virtue of the backlash it creates among Iraqis against the US military). And all of that is quite apart from the tragedy of the large number of Iraqi civilian deaths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:13 AM

I wasn't able to see it. I'm sure they're trying to restrict its dissemination as much as possible. Thanks for the feedback by those who have seen it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 12:36 AM

Thank you Barry......I knew I would read that from you and it speaks more than I can say.

BTW, for those of you who see no comparisons to VietNam...try an eye exam.......It gets cleareer every day.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 08:45 AM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/10/11/AR2005101101353_pf.html

Seized Letter Outlines Al Qaeda Goals in Iraq

By Susan B. Glasser and Walter Pincus
Washington Post Staff Writers
Wednesday, October 12, 2005; A13

Al Qaeda's top deputy urged the leader of his Iraq branch in July to prepare for the inevitable U.S. withdrawal by carrying out political as well as military actions, and he lectured him that he risked being shunned by an Islamic world angered over his gruesome and not "palatable" killings of fellow Muslims, according to an intercepted letter released yesterday by the U.S. government.

The 6,000-word letter from Osama bin Laden's chief lieutenant, Ayman Zawahiri, to Iraqi insurgent leader Abu Musab Zarqawi amounts to a detailed portrait of al Qaeda's long-term goals in Iraq and the Middle East, and includes a striking critique of how Zarqawi has gone about waging his war against not only U.S. troops but also Iraqi civilians. The letter was posted yesterday on the Web site of Director of National Intelligence John D. Negroponte -- http://www.dni.gov/ -- after senior intelligence officials released excerpts of it last week.

Invoking the specter of the United States abruptly abandoning Iraq as it did to Vietnam, Zawahiri counseled immediate political action: "We must take the initiative and impose a fait accompli upon our enemies, instead of the enemy imposing one on us."

The missive also suggests the degree to which al Qaeda's leadership remains eager to assert its prerogatives with Zarqawi, who has become the increasingly public face of the movement when Zawahiri and bin Laden are in hiding. Although the letter does not contain a direct reference to Zarqawi until a cryptic greeting to him at the end, a senior intelligence official who briefed reporters on the condition of anonymity said "it's absolutely certain" it was meant for Zarqawi, declining to elaborate on how U.S. officials made that conclusion. The letter was dated July 9, but the official would not say whether it had been sent. "We obtained it in the course of counterterrorism operations in Iraq," he said.

Throughout, Zawahiri -- the Egyptian doctor who fused his own Islamic movement with bin Laden's al Qaeda in the late 1990s and is believed to operate now as the group's top commander -- comes across as a strategist trying to rein in a guerrilla operating at odds with the movement's political goals. The official said that in its repeated criticism of Zarqawi, the letter also amounts to a reproof from "an al Qaeda elder to an occasionally hotheaded field commander."

"He comes down like a ton of bricks on what has happened tactically," the official said.

"This is not a rant. It is more chilling in a sense because it's so well-argued, clean and calm," the official added. "There's a high political content. Zawahiri calls for political action equivalent to military action."

Zarqawi has been high on the list of most wanted insurgents since last year after he pledged allegiance to bin Laden, but in recent months U.S. military commanders have given even greater urgency to disrupting his network of foreign fighters and Iraqi supporters. The network is still thought to constitute only a fraction of the Iraqi insurgency in numbers, but it is credited with carrying out a disproportionately large share of the violence, as a result of suicide bombings often aimed at Shiite civilians to foment sectarian strife.

But Zawahiri urged Zarqawi in the letter to change that formula and refocus on politics. When the United States leaves, al Qaeda must be ready to claim as much territory politically in the inevitable void that will arise, he writes. Zawahiri called that stage the setting up of an "emirate," in as much of Sunni-dominated Iraq as possible, to be followed by the longer-term goal of a "caliphate," reuniting the historical Islamic empire centered in modern-day Egypt, Lebanon and Israel.

Zawahiri also questions Zarqawi's targeting of Iraqi Shiites, telling him bluntly that the "majority of Muslims don't comprehend this" and wondering whether such targeting is a "wise decision" given the need to wage war against the United States and the current Iraqi government. And even if Shiite leaders should be targeted, Zawahiri asks, "why were there attacks on ordinary Shia?"

He also told Zarqawi that fellow Muslims "will never find palatable" the televised scenes of hostage beheadings that have earned Zarqawi the sobriquet "sheik of the slaughterers." among like-minded fighters. In the media battle "for the hearts and minds" of the Islamic world, Zawahiri said, such tactics will not work.

Zawahiri has spoken before about the broad plans of the al Qaeda movement. In a book smuggled out of Afghanistan in December 2001, Zawahiri said the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks "would be nothing more than disturbing acts" if they "do not serve the ultimate goal of establishing the Muslim nation in the heart of the Islamic world." In the 2001 volume, he said the first goal should be to strike Americans and Jews "in our Muslim countries."

In the new letter, Zawahiri said the Muslim masses "do not rally except against an outside occupying enemy, especially if the enemy is firstly Jewish and secondly American."

In an unusual reverse, the letter asks Zarqawi to send money to al Qaeda, saying many of its "lines have been cut off," and that "we'll be very grateful to you" for financial help.

Staff writer Bradley Graham contributed to this report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:01 AM

As usual, Woody, your contribution is totally off the point of the thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 09:03 AM

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/world/14824892.htm

"The question remains, how to draw the Americans into fighting a war against Iran?"

Associated Press

Text of a document discovered in terror leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's hide-out. The document was provided in English by Iraqi National Security Adviser Mouwafak al-Rubaie:

The situation and conditions of the resistance in Iraq have reached a point that requires a review of the events and of the work being done inside Iraq. Such a study is needed in order to show the best means to accomplish the required goals, especially that the forces of the National Guard have succeeded in forming an enormous shield protecting the American forces and have reduced substantially the losses that were solely suffered by the American forces. This is in addition to the role, played by the Shi'a (the leadership and masses) by supporting the occupation, working to defeat the resistance and by informing on its elements.

As an overall picture, time has been an element in affecting negatively the forces of the occupying countries, due to the losses they sustain economically in human lives, which are increasing with time. However, here in Iraq, time is now beginning to be of service to the American forces and harmful to the resistance for the following reasons:

1. By allowing the American forces to form the forces of the National Guard, to reinforce them and enable them to undertake military operations against the resistance.

2. By undertaking massive arrest operations, invading regions that have an impact on the resistance, and hence causing the resistance to lose many of its elements.

3. By undertaking a media campaign against the resistance resulting in weakening its influence inside the country and presenting its work as harmful to the population rather than being beneficial to the population.

4. By tightening the resistance's financial outlets, restricting its moral options and by confiscating its ammunition and weapons.

5. By creating a big division among the ranks of the resistance and jeopardizing its attack operations, it has weakened its influence and internal support of its elements, thus resulting in a decline of the resistance's assaults.

6. By allowing an increase in the number of countries and elements supporting the occupation or at least allowing to become neutral in their stand toward us in contrast to their previous stand or refusal of the occupation.

7. By taking advantage of the resistance's mistakes and magnifying them in order to misinform.

Based on the above points, it became necessary that these matters should be treated one by one:

1. To improve the image of the resistance in society, increase the number of supporters who are refusing occupation and show the clash of interest between society and the occupation and its collaborators. To use the media for spreading an effective and creative image of the resistance.

2. To assist some of the people of the resistance to infiltrate the ranks of the National Guard in order to spy on them for the purpose of weakening the ranks of the National Guard when necessary, and to be able to use their modern weapons.

3. To reorganize for recruiting new elements for the resistance.

4. To establish centers and factories to produce and manufacture and improve on weapons and to produce new ones.

5. To unify the ranks of the resistance, to prevent controversies and prejudice and to adhere to piety and follow the leadership.

6. To create division and strife between American and other countries and among the elements disagreeing with it.

7. To avoid mistakes that will blemish the image of the resistance and show it as the enemy of the nation.

In general and despite the current bleak situation, we think that the best suggestions in order to get out of this crisis is to entangle the American forces into another war against another country or with another of our enemy force, that is to try and inflame the situation between American and Iraq or between America and the Shi'a in general.

Specifically the Sistani Shi'a, since most of the support that the Americans are getting is from the Sistani Shi'�a, then, there is a possibility to instill differences between them and to weaken the support line between them; in addition to the losses we can inflict on both parties. Consequently, to embroil America in another war against another enemy is the answer that we find to be the most appropriate, and to have a war through a delegate has the following benefits:

1. To occupy the Americans by another front will allow the resistance freedom of movement and alleviate the pressure imposed on it.

2. To dissolve the cohesion between the Americans and the Shi'a will weaken and close this front.

3. To have a loss of trust between the Americans and the Shi'a will cause the Americans to lose many of their spies.

4. To involve both parties, the Americans and the Shi'a, in a war that will result in both parties being losers.

5. Thus, the Americans will be forced to ask the Sunni for help.

6. To take advantage of some of the Shia elements that will allow the resistance to move among them.

7. To weaken the media's side which is presenting a tarnished image of the resistance, mainly conveyed by the Shi'a.

8. To enlarge the geographical area of the resistance movement.

9. To provide popular support and cooperation by the people.

The resistance fighters have learned from the result and the great benefits they reaped, when a struggle ensued between the Americans and the Army of Al-Mahdi. However, we have to notice that this trouble or this delegated war that must be ignited can be accomplished through:

1. A war between the Shi'a and the Americans.

2. A war between the Shi'a and the secular population (such as Ayad 'Alawi and al-Jalabi.)

3. A war between the Shi'a and the Kurds.

4. A war between Ahmad al-Halabi and his people and Ayad 'Alawi and his people.

5. A war between the group of al-Hakim and the group of al-Sadr.

6. A war between the Shi'a of Iraq and the Sunni of the Arab countries in the gulf.

7. A war between the Americans and Iraq. We have noticed that the best of these wars to be ignited is the one between the Americans and Iran, because it will have many benefits in favor of the Sunni and the resistance, such as:

1. Freeing the Sunni people in Iraq, who are (30 percent) of the population and under the Shi'a Rule.

2. Drowning the Americans in another war that will engage many of their forces.

3. The possibility of acquiring new weapons from the Iranian side, either after the fall of Iran or during the battles.

4. To entice Iran towards helping the resistance because of its need for its help.

5. Weakening the Shi'a supply line.

The question remains, how to draw the Americans into fighting a war against Iran? It is not known whether American is serious in its animosity towards Iraq, because of the big support Iran is offering to America in its war in Afghanistan and in Iraq. Hence, it is necessary first to exaggerate the Iranian danger and to convince America and the west in general, of the real danger coming from Iran, and this would be done by the following:

1. By disseminating threatening messages against American interests and the American people and attribute them to a Shi'a Iranian side.

2. By executing operations of kidnapping hostages and implicating the Shi'a Iranian side.

3. By advertising that Iran has chemical and nuclear weapons and is threatening the west with these weapons.

4. By executing exploding operations in the west and accusing Iran by planting Iranian Shi'a fingerprints and evidence.

5. By declaring the existence of a relationship between Iran and terrorist groups (as termed by the Americans).

6. By disseminating bogus messages about confessions showing that Iran is in possession of weapons of mass destruction or that there are attempts by the Iranian intelligence to undertake terrorist operations in America and the west and against western interests.

Let us hope for success and for God's help."


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 11:14 AM

It has to be remembered that none of the goals attributed to al Qaeda in the records purported to be from Zarqawi would have been possible had the US not invaded Iraq. First of all, Zarqawi was not an important figure in al Qaeda until Colin Powell made him one. It was only after a speach given by Powell in which he named Zarqawi as a central figure in al Qaeda that bin Laden and the power figures in al Qaeda took much notice of Zarqawi. And also, had the US not invaded Iraq, Saddam would have prevented al Qaeda from making inroads into Iraq. Iraq would not have been an attractive target for al Qaeda without the US presence there.

And now that we see what al Qaeda wants with regard to drawing the US into a war with Iran, we know we can count on the Bush administration giving al Qaeda exactly what it wants. Because the Bush administration always gives al Qaeda exactly what it wants.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 01:35 PM

I thought this thread was about "Hadji Girl" & winning friends in Iraq & not about Zarqawi. Get it right Woodyy. Damn that Zarqawi, his name keeps getting attached to everything. He's getting more heat than Pretty Boy Floyd. Didn't he just rob that Manhattan Trust yesterday? Now today he's getting blamed for global warming & he's dead,,,, so they say.
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:44 PM

Leeneia: Can you view the Fox News Network? You can get the straight story there and if there are two points of view, in most instances you can get that too! It's the favorite source of news for almost all Mudcat members!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 04:58 PM

OK Doug, since you are gracing us with your presence--what's your take on "Hadji Girl"--is it a real laff-fest of a song------or something different?

No problem with a story-song celebrating killing some of the people we're supposedly in Iraq to help--is that it? Or is it OK 'cause it's just fictional--a couple of the boys letting off steam? Somehow, I don't think that's how al-Jazeera would picture it.

Awaiting your comments with interest.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 05:12 PM

I believer the last line of the song is "They should've known they were fuckin' with the Marines..."

Not workin' with, fuckin' with. Sung by a typical overweight, ignorant young American jarhead.

Perfect. I hope lots of people all around the world get to see it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Greg F.
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:38 PM

Where's Snortin Norton1 when you need him? HE'd show ya what happens when you fuck with the Marines!


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Little Hawk
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 06:49 PM

There are people all over this world who have been forced to "fuck" with the Marines...and not by their own choice! The Marines are the Roman Legionaries of the present age. Wherever the Empire goes...they go. Their job: to subdue, conquer, and destroy, for the greater glory of the Empire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 17 Jun 06 - 10:46 PM

CC always gives Al Q what they want.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 09:26 PM

Fernando--


Al-Queda wants the US to attack Iran. Bush is showing tendencies in that direction. Exactly why is this not playing into the hands of al-Queda, as Carol says?

And by the way, what do you think of the subject of the thread, the video of a song about GIs killing the people we are supposedly there to help?


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 10:41 PM

oh heavens we are only there to capture their oil and probably even their wind and solar energy. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:32 PM

The video is a stupid thing that gives Al Q what they want, something they ca use for propaganda, just like CC's whining gives them what they want. They want to see the American people get wimpy and loose their resolve to win.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jun 06 - 11:36 PM

No, that's not what they want at all.

They love it when the US gets all macho with sovereign countries. It helps them immensely with their recruitment efforts. The proof of this is in the documentation provided right here in this thread by our good friend Woody.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 12:06 AM

Wimpy! It is whimpy to says nothing & back the play of this government's policy of agression the same way that Viet Nam was back until those who spoke loud enough were finally being heard. Do you approve of what happened 40 years ago or are you still backing the party line about that too, even after the party & the nation won't back that mistake anymore. Well get used to being wrong again, there's no difference between then & now. This war it's a sick action supported by those that follow their nose when it's being tugged on & it's being sung about here by some sick puppies. Al-Queda doesn't have to do much to increase recuitment we're doing all their work for them.
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:59 AM

Is every war wrong?

Begin with the American revloutionary war and state which ones were
wrong.

I suppose when Dean says "the idea that we're going to win the war in Iraq is an idea which is just plain wrong," and Murtha says "We Cannot Win This" Al Q does not gloat? Thats exactly what they want to hear.

Give them some more and make them happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:29 AM

RE: Wordy's - 'scuse me Woody's (or is that Old Fart's?) - extensive & irrelevant C&P's- thought these were limited to one screen?

Must be one helluva BIG screen....


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: 282RA
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:37 PM

We're not going to lose the war!

We've already lost it. Just accept it. Once again, we bit off more than we could chew and got our asses handed to us as a result.

Get this idea that we're too good to ever do anything wrong out of your thick skulls, you Bush-lovers! We were wrong to invade that country, we were wrong to topple its leadership, we were wrong, we were wrong, we were wrong!

And al-Qaeda can gloat all they want for all I care.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 06:05 PM

al Qaeda knows that the more resources we shovel into our various military adventures, and the more of our men and women in uniform we send to their deaths in our military adventures, the sooner the US empire will collapse (just as happened with the Soviet Union - remember the role the USSR's efforts in places like Afghanistan played in helping to bring about its eventual collapse, and the role the US played in helping to hasten this outcome through its support of the Mujahideen), which is why al Qaeda are so eager for us to get involved in more of them, and why they are so eager for us to continue to bleed ourselves dry in Iraq.

They know, even if we do not, that our financial and personnel resources, and our resolve are not limiteless. They also know, even if we do not, that the longer we continue to bleed ourselves dry in places like Iraq and Afghanistan, the worse shape we will be in when our empire finally does collapse.

Which is why they so totally love GW Bush and his administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: DougR
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 08:04 PM

If the source is MSNBC, I seriously doubt it's true.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 09:57 PM

Yes, yes, yes Carol, & it won't cost them a pretty penny either. How much could it have cost them for 9/11 & what's happened in it's aftermath. I'm sure Al-Queda out lay was well under a million which was probably tripled when advantage was taken by them by playing the stock market. So they probably make money are our expense & they're still coming out on top at our expense. War works for both sides, although in our situation Bush & Co. & others can't see that we are the ones that are really losing, by far.

Piss off China, let them call in our loans & we'll go bankrupt or have to start another war just to excuse our debt. We will go the way of Russia if it happens & at this point all the world, including our allies would love to see the school yard bully go down.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 10:29 PM

Read the thread, DougR. We've produced the video, and we've produced an admission from the guy who made it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 11:40 PM

But Carol, it's not Fox News, Limbaugh, Ann Coulter, nor the Arizona Republic(an). So it doesn't exist in Doug's universe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:59 AM

http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=story_14-4-2004_pg7_53


One of bin Laden's recent publications, posted on the web, declared that "America is in retreat by the Grace of Almighty


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 01:51 PM

One of bin Laden's recent publications, posted on the web, declared that "America is in retreat by the Grace of Almighty

Since we know that "America" is not in retreat, I think we can safely assume that bin Laden is lying for a reason. The most likely reason would seem to be that he wants people like you to encourage the US to get even more mired down in wars that it can't win and can't support.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 08:39 PM

Best example of basackwards logic I have seen in a long time.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 09:11 PM

So you don't think Osama wants the US to attack Iran? In fact it would be the best possible recruitment tool for al-Queda--perhaps even better than the US attack on Iraq--which was a wonderful windfall for him.

If you disagree, tell us exactly why--preferably with clearer language than "bassackwards".


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 11:11 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: 282RA - PM
Date: 19 Jun 06 - 04:37 PM

We're not going to lose the war!

We've already lost it. Just accept it. Once again, we bit off more than we could chew and got our asses handed to us as a result.

Get this idea that we're too good to ever do anything wrong out of your thick skulls, you Bush-lovers! We were wrong to invade that country, we were wrong to topple its leadership, we were wrong, we were wrong, we were wrong!

And al-Qaeda can gloat all they want for all I care."





282RA, Ron and all you other al-Qaida sympathizers,

Take a break from your dream world. Join the crowd and change your "glass is half-empty" point of view.

Iraq has electd a new government.

Saddam in on trial and now facing the death penalty.

Zarqawi is dead.

His most telling documents are now in the hands of the USA.

Insurgents (terrorists) are being rounded up due to those documents.

Young Iraqi girls are now in school.

The new Iraqi stock market is growing and new businesses are opening up.

More Iraqis have access to satellite TV and news from other places besides Saddam's propaganda.

More schools and hospitals are now available for Iraqi people.

How much good news is it going to take to change your minds?

The point is that you are never going to change your minds. It doesn't matter what news comes out of Iraq. Good, bad or indifferent.

The point is that al-Qaida doesn't want people to know what the good news is. They know that blood and gore dominates the newscast of the western media. As long as they know that, they will continue to kill. Then that's what's going to lead the newscast. Each and every time.

"This war it's a sick action supported by those that follow their nose when it's being tugged on & it's being sung about here by some sick puppies. Al-Queda doesn't have to do much to increase recuitment we're doing all their work for them."

Thank you, Barry, for the above quote. Even though I know you didn't mean it this way but you just nailed the truth about liberals up for everyone to see.


And let's get the Vietnam crap out of the way right now.

This war is in no way even close to being comparable to Vietnam. Either in death toll or in the way it's being fought.

The only reason you guys keep bringing it up is that it reminds you of when liberals had their "hey day" in American politics. They actually had the ear of the public back then. Things have changed. Get over it.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 11:36 PM

No, best example of backwards logic (and sideways and also inside-out logic as well) is this bit from the Bush people (most notably, Mr. Cheney) in reference to their intention to invade Iraq (paraphrasing)...

"We need to invade Iraq in response to being attacked on 9/11."

But Mr. Cheney, Iraq didn't attack us on 9/11!

"I know, but Iraq has more better targets."


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 11:36 PM

THere are some strong similarities, Hub. Insufficient commitment to win, for one thing, in the first place. Started on false pretense in both cases. Basis of extensive lies to the public by the Administration, for another. Messed up militarily as a reult of a complete failure to understand the enemy, a distinct similarity.

Mind you, I am not rejecting your assertions about the good news in Iraq. I need all the good news I can get.

As for obsessively fretting over political influence, you miss the boat altogether. It's a Republican thing.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Jun 06 - 11:39 PM

Young Iraqi girls are now in school.

When were young Iraqi girls not in school?


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Barry Finn
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 01:56 AM

I meant that just the way I wrote it. Those that follow a government's criminal & horrific policies & they can't & won't speak or think for themselves deserve to reep what they've sown. When you know it's a lie & you know it's the wrong thing to do but you back the play or stay silent to the sickness of it all anyway it comes back to bite you on the ass & the ass in office is getting eaten alive.
Yes, we are doing Al-Queda's bidding for them. They must be pissing in their pants with pleasure.

"And let's get the Vietnam crap out of the way right now."

Yes, Hubby this is just like Viet Nam, get used to it, you'll be living with it for the next 4 generations. Do you still think that, that was a grand cause too?

"This war is in no way even close to being comparable to Vietnam. Either in death toll or in the way it's being fought"

Hubby, is that all that matters, means & methods & body counts? Again many died, why? And why are we were we are now? It's time to brake the looking glass, you're looking though the smoke at mirrors, all smoke & mirrors.   

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 09:40 AM

Osama does not want us to attack Iran. That's why he makes it look like He is goading us into attacking Iran. He thinks we will not do what he wants us to do.

Unless he knows we know that he knows that we know what he knows.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Rapparee
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 11:55 AM

"Hell," said the Sarge, "When you got 'em by the balls their hearts and minds will follow."


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Jun 06 - 12:04 PM

Osama does not want us to attack Iran. That's why he makes it look like He is goading us into attacking Iran.

You might have a point were it not for those pesky documemts of Zarqawi's (graciously provided by Guest,Woody), that Osama had no reason to anticipate would be captured by US forces. If those documents are real and not invented by the US government, they provide us with all the evidence we need that al Qaeda wants the US to attack Iran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:01 AM

http://www.islamfortoday.com/binladen01.htm
November 9, 2001

OBL: I ask the American people to force their government to give up anti-Muslim policies. The American people had risen against their government's war in Vietnam. They must do the same today. The American people should stop the massacre of Muslims by their government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 12:13 AM

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4628932.stm
Thursday, 19 January 2006,
The pan-Arab TV station al-Jazeera has broadcast an audio tape purporting to be by al-Qaeda leader Osama Bin Laden, in which the speaker says al-Qaeda is preparing new attacks on the US.

Here is the full text of the message, as carried on al-Jazeera's website.

My message to you is about the war in Iraq and Afghanistan and the way to end it.

I had not intended to speak to you about this issue, because, for us, this issue is already decided on: diamonds cut diamonds.

Praise be to God, our conditions are always improving and becoming better, while your conditions are to the contrary of this.

However, what prompted me to speak are the repeated fallacies of your President Bush in his comment on the outcome of the US opinion polls, which indicated that the overwhelming majority of you want the withdrawal of the forces from Iraq, but he objected to this desire and said that the withdrawal of troops would send a wrong message to the enemy.

Bush said: It is better to fight them on their ground than they fighting us on our ground.

In my response to these fallacies, I say: The war in Iraq is raging, and the operations in Afghanistan are on the rise in our favour, praise be to God.

The Pentagon figures indicate the rise in the number of your dead and wounded, let alone the huge material losses, and let alone the collapse of the morale of the soldiers there and the increase in the suicide cases among them.

So, just imagine the state of psychological breakdown that afflicts the soldier while collecting the remnants of his comrades' dead bodies after they hit mines, which torn them. Following such situation, the soldier becomes between two fires. If he refuses to go out of his military barracks for patrols, he will face the penalties of the Vietnam butcher, and if he goes out, he will face the danger of mines.

So, he is between two bitter situations, something which puts him under psychological pressure - fear, humiliation, and coercion. Moreover, his people are careless about him. So, he has no choice but to commit suicide.

What you hear about him and his suicide is a strong message to you, which he wrote with his blood and soul while pain and bitterness eat him up so that you would save what you can save from this hell. However, the solution is in your hand if you care about them.

The news of our brother mujahideen, however, is different from what is published by the Pentagon.

This news indicates that what is carried by the news media does not exceed what is actually taking place on the ground. What increases doubts on the information of the White House's administration is its targeting of the news media, which carry some facts about the real situation.

Documents have recently showed that the butcher of freedom in the world [US President Bush] had planned to bomb the head office of al-Jazeera Space Channel in the state of Qatar after he bombed its offices in Kabul and Baghdad, although despite its defects, it is [Al-Jazeera] one of your creations.

Jihad is continuing, praise be to God, despite all the repressive measures the US army and its agents take to the point where there is no significant difference between these crimes and those of Saddam.

These crimes include the raping of women and taking them hostage instead of their husbands. There is no power but in God.

The torturing of men has reached the point of using chemical acids and electric drills in their joints. If they become desperate with them, they put the drill on their heads until death.

If you like, read the humanitarian reports on the atrocities and crimes in the prisons of Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo.

I say that despite all the barbaric methods, they have failed to ease resistance, and the number of mujahideen, praise be to God, is increasing.

In fact, reports indicate that the defeat and devastating failure of the ill-omened plan of the four - Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, and Wolfowitz - and the announcement of this defeat and working it out, is only a matter of time, which is to some extent linked to the awareness of the American people of the magnitude of this tragedy.

The wise ones know that Bush has no plan to achieve his alleged victory in Iraq.

If you compare the small number of the dead when Bush made that false and stupid show-like announcement from an aircraft carrier on the end of the major operations, to many times as much as this number of the killed and injured, who fell in the minor operations, you will know the truth in what I am saying, and that Bush and his administration do not have neither the desire nor the will to withdraw from Iraq for their own dubious reasons.

To go back to where I started, I say that the results of the poll satisfy sane people and that Bush's objection to them is false.

Reality testifies that the war against America and its allies has not remained confined to Iraq, as he claims.

In fact, Iraq has become a point of attraction and recruitment of qualified resources.

On the other hand, the mujahideen, praise be to God, have managed to breach all the security measures adopted by the unjust nations of the coalition time and again.

The evidence of this is the bombings you have seen in the capitals of the most important European countries of this aggressive coalition.

As for the delay in carrying out similar operations in America, this was not due to failure to breach your security measures.

Operations are under preparation, and you will see them on your own ground once they are finished, God willing.

Based on the above, we see that Bush's argument is false. However, the argument that he avoided, which is the substance of the results of opinion polls on withdrawing the troops, is that it is better not to fight the Muslims on their land and for them not to fight us on our land.

We do not object to a long-term truce with you on the basis of fair conditions that we respect.

We are a nation, for which God has disallowed treachery and lying.

In this truce, both parties will enjoy security and stability and we will build Iraq and Afghanistan, which were destroyed by the war.

There is no defect in this solution other than preventing the flow of hundreds of billions to the influential people and war merchants in America, who supported Bush's election campaign with billions of dollars.

Hence, we can understand the insistence of Bush and his gang to continue the war.

If you have a genuine will to achieve security and peace, we have already answered you.

If Bush declines but to continue lying and practicing injustice [against us], it is useful for you to read the book of "The Rogue State", the introduction of which reads: If I were a president, I would halt the operations against the United States.

First, I will extend my apologies to the widows, orphans, and the persons who were tortured. Afterwards, I will announce that the US interference in the world's countries has ended for ever.

Finally, I would like to tell you that the war is for you or for us to win. If we win it, it means your defeat and disgrace forever as the wind blows in this direction with God's help.

If you win it, you should read the history. We are a nation that does not tolerate injustice and seek revenge forever.

Days and nights will not go by until we take revenge as we did on 11 September, God willing, and until your minds are exhausted and your lives become miserable and things turn [for the worse], which you detest.

As for us, we do not have anything to lose. The swimmer in the sea does not fear rain. You have occupied our land, defiled our honour, violated our dignity, shed our blood, ransacked our money, demolished our houses, rendered us homeless, and tampered with our security. We will treat you in the same way.

You tried to deny us the decent life, but you cannot deny us a decent death. Refraining from performing jihad, which is sanctioned by our religion, is an appalling sin. The best way of death for us is under the shadows of swords.

Do not be deluded by your power and modern weapons. Although they win some battles, they lose the war. Patience and steadfastness are better than them. What is important is the outcome.

We have been tolerant for 10 years in fighting the Soviet Union with our few weapons and we managed to drain their economy.

They became history, with God's help.

You should learn lessons from that. We will remain patient in fighting you, God willing, until the one whose time has come dies first. We will not escape the fight as long as we hold our weapons in our hands.

I swear not to die but a free man even if I taste the bitterness of death. I fear to be humiliated or betrayed.

Peace be upon those who follow guidance.

BBC Monitoring


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 03:00 AM

Thanks, Woody.

"As for us, we do not have anything to lose. The swimmer in the sea does not fear rain. You have occupied our land, defiled our honour, violated our dignity, shed our blood, ransacked our money, demolished our houses, rendered us homeless, and tampered with our security. We will treat you in the same way."

Thats pretty damn clear to me.

The U.S. may be a super-power but that doesn't excuse what they have done to Iraq. You'd have to be mad to think they wouldn't fight back. If I were an Iraqi, I'd fight with everything I had to stop such evil.

What would you do if you were an Iraqi in these circumstances?

Kiss butt?


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 03:45 AM

Still looks like Viet Nam all over again to me.
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Fernando
Date: 22 Jun 06 - 11:39 PM

"We have been tolerant for 10 years in fighting the Soviet Union with our few weapons and we managed to drain their economy.

They became history, with God's help."

With the help and weapons of the US, not God. Their "GOD" didn't do shit for them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 01:13 AM

I'm sorry that more is not reported on how much better conditions in Iraq are now than they were before 'shock and awe'.

I've been listening most of the day to the speakers in the Senate and the House of the Representatives in Washington. It's been very interesting as they speak on given subjects.

As Senator Harry Reid just said, "Prior to our invasion, Iraqis had 16 hours of electricity every day. They now have 4 hours. And there are now 400,000 fewer barrels of oil being produced every day than there were pre-war."

Yep, lots of good news to report.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 03:10 AM

Latest ploy to allow US/UK to drag their sorry arses out of Iraq.

Sunni "terrorists" to be invited to join the puppet govt, given "a voice"...Amnesty for insurgent prisoners.

Next move will be to allow Shi'ite militias into the club, then very slowly and hoping no one will notice, we will creep out of the back door, shutting it quietly behind us.....Ake

link


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: Ron Davies
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 09:39 PM

Right you are, Ake--that's the way the US and UK will exit Iraq--but you forgot to say that if the civil war is not too obvious, they will also proclaim "victory" again. If the civil war is obvious--well, it's not exactly clear what they'll do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: akenaton
Date: 23 Jun 06 - 09:54 PM

Yes Ron..You're always a move ahead of the bastards.

Seems like we will leave behind ioo,ooo dead Iraqi's and another fundamentalist Islamic Republic....What an achievment...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 06:41 PM

This is not a war. It's an Iraqi occupation.

If Bush invades Iran, he will leave a more deeply divided country than he has now.

Osama is not Iranian. Every Muslim knows this.

Bush supports Osama's country, Saudi Arabia.

The 911 hi-jackers were not Iranian. Egyptian, Arabic, but not Iranian.

BTW, the idea that Iran had "holocaust" treatment for Jews by making them wear Nazi-like stars is a bogus, untrue propaganda assertion. This gives even less credibility to the Bush Adminstration or Rove.

The only way to win friends in Iraq is to first leave that country.

Bush is "cutting" his responsibility to the American people by robbing benefits to education, the American worker, Planned Parenthood, government agencies such as EPA
and the environment and "running" the country into debt, useless occupations, and from his responsibilities for the American people's well-being. He leaves no Robber Baron behind. He is "cut and run" all the way.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 06:56 PM

"We have been tolerant for 10 years in fighting the Soviet Union with our few weapons and we managed to drain their economy.

They became history, with God's help."

With the help and weapons of the US, not God. Their "GOD" didn't do shit for them.



Nevertheless, this strategy worked, and they are using the same strategy on the US and the "coalition" now, and it is working this time, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Winning Friends in Iraq
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Jun 06 - 06:56 PM

... as well it should. We have no business being there.


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