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BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power

Don Firth 23 May 06 - 02:53 PM
Big Mick 23 May 06 - 02:59 PM
catspaw49 23 May 06 - 03:04 PM
Peace 23 May 06 - 03:21 PM
Amos 23 May 06 - 03:25 PM
Peace 23 May 06 - 05:53 PM
Ebbie 23 May 06 - 06:00 PM
Bobert 23 May 06 - 09:21 PM
harpmolly 23 May 06 - 10:27 PM
Ebbie 23 May 06 - 10:49 PM
catspaw49 24 May 06 - 12:13 AM
harpmolly 24 May 06 - 12:54 AM
catspaw49 24 May 06 - 01:06 AM
JohnInKansas 24 May 06 - 01:17 AM
Peace 24 May 06 - 10:11 AM
harpmolly 24 May 06 - 11:54 AM
Arne 24 May 06 - 01:20 PM
Don Firth 24 May 06 - 01:35 PM
Arne 24 May 06 - 02:43 PM
Amos 28 May 06 - 01:53 PM
dianavan 28 May 06 - 03:43 PM
Ebbie 28 May 06 - 06:00 PM
Peace 28 May 06 - 06:54 PM
Amos 19 Oct 06 - 07:00 PM
DougR 19 Oct 06 - 07:45 PM
dianavan 19 Oct 06 - 09:03 PM
Bobert 19 Oct 06 - 09:13 PM
harpmolly 19 Oct 06 - 11:43 PM
Amos 20 Oct 06 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,TIA 20 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM
Ebbie 20 Oct 06 - 11:43 AM
Amos 20 Oct 06 - 12:01 PM
Bobert 20 Oct 06 - 07:57 PM
Old Guy 21 Oct 06 - 12:09 AM
TIA 21 Oct 06 - 12:14 AM
Old Guy 21 Oct 06 - 02:52 PM
Amos 21 Oct 06 - 03:13 PM
Bill D 21 Oct 06 - 03:55 PM
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Greg F. 21 Oct 06 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,TIA 21 Oct 06 - 06:51 PM
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Subject: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 May 06 - 02:53 PM

The city of Seattle provides a channel called (strangely enough) "The Seattle Channel," where many local events of significance are broadcast over cable television.   I just discovered that they are archived and available on the internet.

This a discussion that took place in Seattle's Town Hall on May 4th, 2006. The blurb reads
ACLU presents: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power   5/4/2006
Revelations about warrantless spying on Americans by the National Security Agency have sparked a nationwide controversy and sharp questions from lawmakers across the spectrum. John W. Dean, former Legal Counsel to President Nixon, and Lisa Graves, ACLU Senior Counsel for Legislative Strategy discuss the NSA spying program and what it means for civil liberties and our constitutional government.
It begins with brief commentaries by Lisa Graves and John Dean, followed by a discussion moderated by Ross Reynolds of KUOW-FM, one of the local Seattle NPR affiliates, and questions from the audience. It runs almost exactly an hour and a half, and I believe it requires RealPlayer to watch.

It is well worth the time of any truly patriotic American to watch this. For those of the conservative bent who would dismiss this because it is presented by the American Civil Liberties Union, at the conclusion of the presentation, John Dean says of the ACLU, "This is one of the few conservative organizations in America. They believe in the Constitution."

Click HERE

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Big Mick
Date: 23 May 06 - 02:59 PM

I can't wait to see how this goes.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 May 06 - 03:04 PM

LOL....The perfect line Mick....My thoughts exactly. Thanks Don.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 06 - 03:21 PM

"The Los Angeles Times reported in December that AT&T provided the NSA with a "direct hookup" into a company database, code-named Daytona, that has been recording the telephone numbers and duration of every call placed on the AT&T network since 2001. The Electronic Frontier Foundation, which has sued AT&T over that and other alleged violations of privacy law, said the call database spans 312 terabytes, a quantity that would fill more than 400,000 computer compact discs."

from

here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Amos
Date: 23 May 06 - 03:25 PM

I would urge you to individually and personally listen and understand the presentations in the link Don Firth presents above.

www.seattlechannel.org/videos/video.asp?ID=5070620

It makes the security issues and the FISA violations more tangible, clear and stark.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Peace
Date: 23 May 06 - 05:53 PM

This subject/topic was broached on the 'cat a few months back I think. Not that it shouldn't be addressed again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 06 - 06:00 PM

Not only is it informative but it's also an easy listen. I LOVE the fact that people are actively trying to turn us around.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Bobert
Date: 23 May 06 - 09:21 PM

Well, well, well...

Yeah, the Founding Fathers are clawin' at their coffin lids tryin' to get out and scream, "This ain't what we had in mind!!!"

Hey, I could have understood if Bush and his cronies had come before the American people and made a case for what they wanted to do but they didn't... They just thought they could get away with it... Just like everything else theat they think they can get away with...

Well, with the exception of the brownshirts in America who represent maybe 3 of 10 Americans the other 7 in 10 Americans have figgured out the Bush pea-unner-the-shell autocratic game...

Now it's a matter of getting these 7 of 10 folks to not fall fir all the BS hook-line-'n-sinker crap about flag burning and the Dems wantin' your sons and daughters to marry queers and the Dems want to kill yer babies crap that these creeps use over and over to get their base to the polls....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: harpmolly
Date: 23 May 06 - 10:27 PM

A friend of mine recently pointed out that all this monitoring and wiretapping is probably fairly useless as far as nabbing terrorists is concerned. You can pick up a prepaid cellphone at any corner store these days, and purchase minutes as you go with cash--totally off the grid. What a comforting thought.

The house of cards is getting shakier and shakier...

I'll definitely have to watch the program. Thanks, Don.

Molly (fellow Seattleite!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 May 06 - 10:49 PM

For some reason Bobert's post made me remember something an official from the justice system told us in a business management course. He said that the one trait criminal minds share is that they think that they are smarter than the rest of us, and that, ironically, they tend not to be smart at all.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 May 06 - 12:13 AM

I didn't think I could learn anything about sex from the Bush folks but I was wrong. I have learned that oral sex is bad and sodomy is good. Clinton was impeached for getting his hat blown while George has butt-fucked an entire country and is still going along fat, dumb, and happy. Based on that, I predict a dramatic rise in both the price and sales of Vaseline, another petroleum product.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: harpmolly
Date: 24 May 06 - 12:54 AM

ROFL!!!!

Sorry, Spaw, I know it really wasn't supposed to be funny. But I've gotta laugh at something.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: catspaw49
Date: 24 May 06 - 01:06 AM

No, that was the exact response I wanted! Thank you!!!

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 24 May 06 - 01:17 AM

An easy listen(?) - not on a dial-up connection; but after I left it alone for an hour and came back and re-played it, an excellent program.

Most of what was said was old news to a few of us, although even that gained some additional perspective.

The one rather chilling tidbit tossed out, that I had NOT known about, was that judges on the "Security Court" are appointed by the Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court - who acts alone in this. I had looked for information on how the court was set up; but got only that the judges were appointed "by the Supreme Court" and for rotating and fairly short assignments. [note to self: verification?]

Guess whose new CJSC is sitting now.

So in 6 months or a year, when/(if?) the administration is forced to cease ignoring the court, the judges on the court will all have been appointed by the (alleged) criminal(s).(?)

Hitler could have taken lessons, instead of t'other way around.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Peace
Date: 24 May 06 - 10:11 AM

It's time folks began to see that all's not right in the US Gover'ment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: harpmolly
Date: 24 May 06 - 11:54 AM

"Patriotism is supporting your country all the time, and your government when it deserves it."
         --Mark Twain


Ooh, argh...I feel a showtune coming on ;)

"No man, no madness,
Though their sad power may prevail,
Can possess--conquer--my country's heart,
They rise to fail.
She is eternal, long before nations' lines were drawn;
When no flags flew, when no armies stood,
My land was born.
And you ask me why I love her, through wars, death and despair;
She is the constant, we who don't care;
And you wonder, will I leave her? But how?
I cross over borders but I'm still there now...

How can I leave her? Where would I start?
Let man's petty nations tear themselves apart--
My land's only borders lie around my heart."
--Tim Rice, "Chess"


Of course, that song is a little bit problematic for an American to sing, IMHO. But I still love it--it really expresses how one must sometimes separate one's love for country from one's inability to tolerate an unjust government.

OK, enough blathering outta me. :P

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Arne
Date: 24 May 06 - 01:20 PM

I'd like to recommend Glenn Greenwald's book "How Would A Patriot Act?", which discusses at length the illegality of the maladministration's various "intelligence" programs (also discussed on a daily basis on his blog, Unclaimed Territory, http://glenngreenwald.blogspot.com/).

Any thinking American should buy it, read it, and spread the word.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Don Firth
Date: 24 May 06 - 01:35 PM

Thanks, Arne! If my local bookstore (five blocks away) doesn't have it, I'll order it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Arne
Date: 24 May 06 - 02:43 PM

Don:

Tell your friends (and even your enemies) too!

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Amos
Date: 28 May 06 - 01:53 PM

From the American Civil Liberties Union:

"Readers may be interested to know that the ACLU is launching a
nationwide consumer campaign today to respond to the recent
revelations about the telecoms and NSA spying. We are:

A) asking the FCC to fulfill its regulatory obligation and
investigate (Chairman Martin's lame argument that they cannot do so
notwithstanding)

B) ACLU offices around the country are filing demands with Public
Utility Commissions, which often have considerable power to enforce
state privacy laws, asking for investigations and cease-and-desist
actions.

C) Inviting citizens to add their names to these actions, and making
it easy to do so via www.aclu.org/dontspy

Our appeal is below.

Thanks,

Barry

------
Barry Steinhardt
Director, Technology and Liberty Project, ACLU


Dear Friend,

It's illegal and un-American for your phone company to hand over your
phone records to the government without a legal order. But it looks
like that's just what they're doing: violating the privacy and rights
of millions of innocent Americans in the process.

The phone companies have no right to forfeit your privacy. And just
last night we learned that the FCC has refused to investigate these
illegal actions, using the same "state secrets" excuse used by the
very phone companies it's supposed to hold accountable.

Today, the ACLU is launching a nationwide consumer campaign demanding
that regulators do their jobs and protect our privacy. We need your
help.




It's outrageous that the agency created to guard the people's
interest is burying its head in the sand during what may be the most
massive abuse of customer privacy in American history.

We can't stand idly by while corporations, federal regulators and
even our elected leaders fail to champion our rights or uphold our
basic system of checks and balances. The power to right these wrongs
ultimately resides in the hands of the American people.

The ACLU is filing formal documents with the Federal Communications
Commission (FCC) insisting that they fulfill their regulatory
obligation and investigate this breach of consumer trust. At the same
time, ACLU offices across the country are filing similar demands with
regulatory authorities in dozens of states.

Regulators need to hear that the public demands action. The longer
the list of names, the more powerful our message. Federal and state
officials must use their authority to investigate and fine the phone
companies, and your voice will make a difference.

Act now to stop phone companies from abusing your privacy.

We must not allow the government and the phone companies to collude
in this massive illegal attack on our privacy and our trust.

And we certainly can't wait for Congress to act, or for the phone
companies to reverse course.

Join us in telling the FCC that we won't take no for an answer --
they must investigate. And don't let the states follow the FCC's
wrong-headed example. We are simultaneously filing 20 actions across
the nation TODAY.

Please add your name and your voice. All you have to do is use our
online form. We'll add your name to our demand for FCC action and to
local filings in applicable states. After you sign on, you can also
send an email directly to each of the four FCC commissioners letting
them know Americans want answers and action.

Act now to stop phone companies from abusing your privacy.

As always, thank you for standing with us. Every voice in this fight
is going to matter, so please take action today.

Sincerely,

Anthony D. Romero
Executive Director
ACLU


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: dianavan
Date: 28 May 06 - 03:43 PM

What is really crazy about this is that criminals do not use land lines. Criminals use cell phones and get new cell phones every month or two under false names. Governments are wasting their time tapping the phones of law-abiding citizens. I mean what criminal is going to blab about criminal activity on a household telephone under their own name?

Besides that, investigators are going through rheams of information that are of absolutely no use to them and they are doing this with your tax dollars. That money would be better spent on the health, education and welfare of the citizenry. Isn't that what governments are supposed to do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:00 PM

The really cool thing is that they/we have discovered how to eliminate unemployment- if you're going to check millions of people's calling records, you will have to have millions of people on the payroll. Very fortunate that outsourcing is already in place. Hmmmm. Who will check them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Peace
Date: 28 May 06 - 06:54 PM

The answer in on the 'net:


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Amos
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:00 PM

An interesting story from Alternet about spying on those dangerous peace-activist types:

"This information is being provided only to alert commanders and staff to potential terrorist activity or apprise them of other force protection issues."
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More information keeps coming out, thanks to the ACLU, about the Bush Administration's equation of protest with terrorism -- and the snooping it then engages in.

Homeland Security is monitoring peace groups and even peering at their e-mails. "This information is being provided only to alert commanders and staff to potential terrorist activity or apprise them of other force protection issues."

It then shares that information with Joint Terrorism Task Forces, which include the FBI and state and local law enforcement, as well as with the Pentagon's notorious Talon (Threat and Local Observation Notice) program.

For instance, an April 12, 2005, Talon document, just released by the ACLU, shows that the Pentagon was concerned about "suspicious activity" at an upcoming event sponsored by the Broward Anti-War Coalition in Florida.

This peace group, according to the document, was planning -- hold your breath here -- "guerrilla theater and other forms of subversive propaganda" at the Fort Lauderdale Air and Sea Show.

The source of the information was the Miami-Dade Police Department, and members of Army Recruiting and the Miami Joint Terrorism Task Force were briefed on it, the document states.

Another Talon document, dated March 1, 2005, released by the ACLU, reveals that Homeland Security agents are monitoring e-mails of such scary groups as the Quakers.

"The source received an e-mail on 25 Feb 05, subject: upcoming peace/anti-war events. The e-mail was from the American Friends Service Committee (AFSC) in Northeast Ohio," the document states. And that source is identified as "a special agent of the Federal Protective Service, US Department of Homeland Security." The document adds, "Source is reliable."

The Joint Terrorism Task Force of Dayton, Ohio, was briefed on this one.

The planned activity of the Quakers that so concerned the Pentagon, Homeland Security, and the Joint Terrorism Task Force was this: "On 19 Mar 05, there will be a 'Stop the War NOW!' rally in commemoration of the second anniversary of the U.S. Invasion/Occupation of Iraq. The Akron rally will have a march and reading of names of war dead. ... The Akron march begins at noon and goes past a local military recruiting station and the FBI office. The march will end at the Federal Building in Akron, for a rally, followed by reading of names of U.S. and Iraqi war dead."

A third Talon document, dated March 7, 2005, also relies on an e-mail from the Quakers. "Source received an e-mail from the American Friends Service Committee" about "actions at military recruitment offices with the goals to include: raising awareness, education, visibility." The source is again identified as "a special agent of the Federal Protective Service, U.S. Department of Homeland Security. Source is reliable."

All three Talon documents state at the top: "This information is being provided only to alert commanders and staff to potential terrorist activity or apprise them of other force protection issues."

"Potential terrorist activity." Isn't that delightful?

Word to the wise: If you're a peace activist, the government may be watching you and reading your e-mails.

Something just to keep in mind....


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: DougR
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 07:45 PM

The ACLU sucks. IMO.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:03 PM

Well, Doug, we already know you don't believe in civil liberties for anyone except white men.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 09:13 PM

Yeah, the ACLU is too conservative for my pal, Dougie, 'cause they are out there trying like mad to protect our constitutional liberties and freedoms... Oh, horrors...

But, Dougie, the ever faithfull brownshirt warrier, would rather be in the winner's circle than be on the correct side of history...

But go figure... I still love the guy...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: harpmolly
Date: 19 Oct 06 - 11:43 PM

Oooh, yeah, no one's as likely to blow things up as a *peace group*.

Grow the *&^%%^$ up, Georgie & Co.

(And don't anyone point to ELF or animal rights groups as examples...however objectionable their actions, they never said they were about peace.)

Disgusting, really.

Molly


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 10:31 AM

From the Times: (NY)

October 18, 2006, 10:58 am
Tuned Out of the Torture Debate
Tags: National Security, torture

President Bush signed the Military Commissions Act on Tuesday. Yale law professor Jack Balkin elaborates on what that means: "The bottom line is simple: The MCA preserves rights against torture and cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment, but it severs these rights from any practical remedy," he writes at the group legal blog Balkinization. Balkin calls the bill "the very essence of tyranny" because it represents "the accumulation of executive, judicial, and legislative powers in a single branch and under a single individual." He explains:
The President decides whether he thinks people in the Executive branch are violating the law, and even if he believes they are violating the law, the President also decides whether he will order them to stop. By now we know the answer to this question. He will not order them to stop. Quite the contrary: the President has made clear in his repeated endorsement of these "alternative" techniques (techniques that he will not name in public) that he will push CIA officials to break the law. Because the Executive branch holds all enforcement powers within itself, the only thing that prevents cruel, inhuman and degrading treatment is the conscience of CIA personnel and executive branch lawyers.
And we know from the fiasco over the torture memo that the conscience of executive branch lawyers has not always been sufficient.
There are many things that are deeply distressing about the Military Commissions Act of 2006. One of the most distressing is its deeply cynical attitude about law. The President has created a new regime in which he is a law unto himself on issues of prisoner interrogations. He decides whether he has violated the laws, and he decides whether to prosecute the people he in turn urges to break the law. And all the while he insists that everything he does is perfectly legal, because, the way the law is designed, there is no one with authority to disagree.
Crooks and Liars quotes George Washington law professor Jonathan Turley on Keith Olbermann's MSNBC show "Countdown" last night: "The Congress just gave the President despotic powers and you could hear the yawn across the country as people turned to 'Dancing With the Stars.' "


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 10:42 AM

I'm really curious. Is this new America that our "conservative" friends started working for 20 years ago when they planted the seeds of the current monoparty government. I don't remember anyone saying "support us, and we will re-instate the rights to hold US citizens without charge and convict them using secret, torture induced, hearsay". In fact didn't I hear some of our conservative friends howling their fool heads off about maybe 15 to 20 FBI files somehow ending up in the Whitehouse? That doesn't seem like much now does it. Oh wait, I forgot, Clintons where involved so that was heinous. Bush's assumption of quite literally unfettered despotic -- eerily Soviet style -- powers is no big deal. Am I right FOXies? You actually wanted us to bring down the Soviet Union so, we could assume their former role, all along? Sorry I misunderstood you Comrades.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 11:43 AM

Even IF a current government could be trusted to utilize and not abuse the powers that have been granted it by Congress, wouldn't that current government stop to think and wonder whether future administrations can be so trusted?

In the US we have set in motion laws and mindsets and actions that will come back to haunt us for generations.   

It boggles the mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Amos
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 12:01 PM

And causeth the ire to rise up in a thousand points of anger.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Bobert
Date: 20 Oct 06 - 07:57 PM

Well, first of all, I don't trust the current crooks, let alone the future crooks but what really bugs me is that Congress has become a "punter" when it comes to standin' up to the current crooks...

Oh yeah, John "POW" McCain woofed and woofed about standing up to Bush's boys when Bush's Boys wanted to take down an 800 year legal principle of habeas corpus but then when the chips were down, John "POW" McCain punted... Maybe it was a senior moment, I don't know, but he punted... "Yeah, whatever, Ralph, ain't no sweat of my behind. I ain't no POW nho more..."

Yeah, these policies are not only unconstitutional but downright Talibanish...

Whne I look at the way the Bush folks have dismantled cebnturies of precidence because they looked around after 9/1q1 and figured they could pull it off all I can think of it that with waht Bush and Co. have done they might have just run the white flag up the flagpole... We are not better off now but much, much worse... I'm not even sure that our countery can survive all the stuff that Bush has broken but I do know one thing and that is Osoma has won this round decisively...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:09 AM

DId anybody see this show on the Discovery Times channel?

FDR and World War II

In 1940 Adolph Hitler was determined to conquer all of Europe. Despite isolationist sentiment, President Roosevelt planned for US entry into the European conflict. His courage in the face of popular opposition ultimately allowed for the Allied victory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: TIA
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 12:14 AM

And now, the courage is shown by those who oppose the latest despot in the face of popular opposition.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 02:52 PM

According to some "brave" people, FDR knew about Pearl Harbor in advance but let it happen so he could take America to war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Amos
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 03:13 PM

You can find someone to say almost anything, OG> Any facts in support of the assertion?

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 03:55 PM

Ok...for those who missed it, or don't get MSNBC, here is the latest Keith Olbermann comment ...this time on the Military Commissions Act. The transcript is also there, in case you don't have a fast connection.

Listen or read carefully....he says what many of us would like to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 03:59 PM

if you'd like to see more of this man has had to say about recent news...(even back to the Katrina crisis) just Google "Olbermann video"


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Bill D
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 04:01 PM

well, I see it's already been noted in the "wrong, sir" thread...*grin*...I should have looked at titles better....but mentioning it twice won't hurt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Greg F.
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:44 PM

As long as Fat Old Woody cares to bring up FDR & WW II in an uninformed and futile attempt to equate that gentleman and that situation with current affairs, it would be appropriate to recall that all four of FDR's sons saw combat service.

Now, exactly how many of Dumbya's, or Cheney's, or Rumsfeld's, or Rice's, or any of the other tough-talking, he-man BuShites have family members on active service in or out of a combat zone?

PS: F.O.W. might also care to keep in mind that a half-hour (less commercials) TV show is "entertainment", not history. If he wants history, he'll have to pick up a book - assuming he's up to the task...


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 06:51 PM

And FDR had the balls and conviction to actually ask the nation to pitch in and help the war effort. Consequently we won.

The current A-hole does not ask any sacrifice of anyone here at home (let alone his family and friends). In fact, he tells us to act as if there is no war effort.

If it IS the central front in the war on terror and/or WWIII, why are we not fighting it with the complete national effort we fought the last world war? Why has it now taken longer than it took FDR (and Truman) to win WWII?

Couldn't possibly be the leadership could it?

Must be, because don't you DARE say it's the troops' fault. I got some of mine over there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 10:08 PM

FDR had the balls and conviction to spy on people he thought were enemys in violation of the constitution.

If you would watch that program you would see all of the accusations of him knowing about Pearl Harbor in advance. It almost eerie how it echoes what has recently happened. People marching with banners saying No War.

So don't bitch at me, bitch at the program. All I am saying is what is in that show, produced by The Discovery Channel and the New York Times. You can even see Bubba defending FDR's spying and lying.

I wish I could find a transcript but here is a blurb:

Watching the German forces rolling over Europe in 1940, Franklin D. Roosevelt stood ready to do whatever he felt he must to protect the U.S.even if it meant going against the Constitution and the will of the American people. In this program, biographers James MacGregor Burns and Jon Meacham, Roosevelt White House aide George Elsey, Walter Cronkite, Bill Clinton, Jimmy Carter, and Andy Rooney examine FDR's tenuous political position as he incrementally moved his isolationist nation toward war. They deftly capture the temper of the times as they review the events and decisions that led to America's entry into World War II. A Discovery Channel Production. (45 minutes)


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 21 Oct 06 - 11:08 PM

From Bubba's first First Inaugural Address

...Americans deserve better, and in this city today there are people who want to do better, and so I say to all of you here, let us resolve to reform our politics, so that power and privilege no longer shout down the voice of the people. Let us put aside personal advantage, so that we can feel the pain and see the promise of America. Let us resolve to make our government a place for what Franklin Roosevelt called "bold, persistent experimentation, a government for our tomorrows, not our yesterdays." Let us give this capitol back to the people to whom it belongs....


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 11:14 AM

To Dear Leader Greg Jong-il:

Yes, Bubba and Mr Peanut were very entertaining while defending FDR on his spying and lying.

But to see them defending such things in the program and condeming it in the news raises questions about their credibility. It indicates there is a double standard at play.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 03:03 PM

Fasten your seat belt!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 03:12 PM

So OG, why are we not fighting WWIII (the "Central Front in the War on Terror"!!!!) with the same effort we fought WWII?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 04:13 PM

Tia:

Because Liberal crybabys don't want us to fight at all just like the ones that wanted to stay out of WWII and Bubba weaked our defenses.

Between 1992 and 2000, the Clinton Administration cut national defense by more than half a million personnel and $50 billion in inflation-adjusted dollars. The Army alone has lost four active divisions and two Reserve divisions. The number of total active personnel in the Air Force has decreased by nearly 30 percent. In the Navy, the total number of ships has decreased from around 393 ships in the fleet in 1992 to 316 today. Even the Marines have dropped 22,000 personnel."

Firth:

I listened until he said "Tokyo Rose would have quit" It is nonfactual rhetoric.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 05:10 PM

Since when has "nonfactual rhetoric" bothered you, Old Guy? The whole Bush administration uses it all the time, and if Fox News Service had to cut their "nonfactual rhetoric", they'd have to go off the air. Nothing for them to say. Same with Limbaugh, Medved, and the rest.

But Olbermann has plenty of facts.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 05:26 PM

So liberal crybabies are dictating how the war is fought. If you are correct, GWB is a bigger wussy than he pretends to be, and apparently he is not "The Decider".

Which has weakened our military more?

a) the post cold war build-down

b) the combined wars in Iraq and Afghanistan


But, let's keep it simple. WWII was at least partly won based on rationing on the home front. Why do we not have that now?


Don't bother answering. I already know your answer. Liberal crybabies and Clinton.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Oct 06 - 05:28 PM

And as far as Clinton's military cut-backs are concerned, this was perfectly consistent with the collapse of the Soviet Union and the fact that until Bush started shooting his mouth off about "axis of evil," no other nation constituted any kind of threat. There was the threat of terrorist activity, which Clinton was aware of and tried to warn the incoming Bush administration about, but they didn't want to hear it.

Clinton knew, as Bush does not, that an international terrorist organization like al Qaeda would have to be handled through intelligence agencies, international cooperation, and surgical strikes against the terrorist organizations themselves. Invading another country that had nothing to do with the 9/11 attack is just about the stupidest thing this country could have done. Guaranteed to increase the problem.

We wouldn't need a huge military had it not been for Bush's arrogance and incompetence, aided and abetted by blunderers like Rumsfeld and Rice, not to mention war-profiteers like Cheney's friends and business associates (no-bid contracts to Halliburton).

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:42 PM

The first thing FDR did was to convene a special session of Congress where he introduced a bill amending the War Powers Act to remove the clause excluding American citizens from being bound by its effects. This would allow the President to declare “national emergencies” and unilaterally intact laws to deal with them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 08:47 PM

Permitting the interment of Japanese Americans during WWII
After the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor on Dec. 7, 1941, representatives of the western states pressed Congress and President Franklin D. Roosevelt to have Japanese Americas removed from the west coast. When the Department of Justice objected on constitutional and ethical grounds, President Roosevelt issued Executive Order No. 9066 and directed the U.S. Army to conduct the transportation of more than 120,000 Japanese Americans to interment camps. Most of these individuals were either U.S. citizens, or had permanent resident alien status. They were detained for up to 4 years without due process of law or ever being presented with any factual evidence against them. The following is the text of Executive Order No. 9066:

Executive Order No. 9066

The President

Executive Order

Authorizing the Secretary of War to Prescribe Military Areas

Whereas the successful prosecution of the war requires every possible protection against espionage and against sabotage to national-defense material, national-defense premises, and national-defense utilities as defined in Section 4, Act of April 20, 1918, 40 Stat. 533, as amended by the Act of November 30, 1940, 54 Stat. 1220, and the Act of August 21, 1941, 55 Stat. 655 (U.S.C., Title 50, Sec. 104),

Now, therefore, by virtue of the authority vested in me as President of the United States, and Commander in Chief of the Army and Navy, I hereby authorize and direct the Secretary of War, and the Military Commanders whom he may from time to time designate, whenever he or any designated Commander deems such action necessary or desirable, to prescribe military areas in such places and of such extent as he or the appropriate Military Commander may determine, from which any or all persons may be excluded, and with respect to which, the right of any person to enter, remain in, or leave shall be subject to whatever restrictions the Secretary of War or the appropriate Military Commander may impose in his discretion. The Secretary of War is hereby authorized to provide for residents of any such area who are excluded therefrom, such transportation, food, shelter, and other accommodations as may be necessary, in the judgment of the Secretary of War or the said Military Commander, and until other arrangements are made, to accomplish the purpose of this order. The designation of military areas in any region or locality shall supersede designations of prohibited and restricted areas by the Attorney General under the Proclamations of December 7 and 8, 1941, and shall supersede the responsibility and authority of the Attorney General under the said Proclamations in respect of such prohibited and restricted areas.

I hereby further authorize and direct the Secretary of War and the said Military Commanders to take such other steps as he or the appropriate Military Commander may deem advisable to enforce compliance with the restrictions applicable to each Military area hereinabove authorized to be designated, including the use of Federal troops and other Federal Agencies, with authority to accept assistance of state and local agencies.

I hereby further authorize and direct all Executive Departments, independent establishments and other Federal Agencies, to assist the Secretary of War or the said Military Commanders in carrying out this Executive Order, including the furnishing of medical aid, hospitalization, food, clothing, transportation, use of land, shelter, and other supplies, equipment, utilities, facilities, and services.

This order shall not be construed as modifying or limiting in any way the authority heretofore granted under Executive Order No. 8972, dated December 12, 1941, nor shall it be construed as limiting or modifying the duty and responsibility of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, with respect to the investigation of alleged acts of sabotage or the duty and responsibility of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice under the Proclamations of December 7 and 8, 1941, prescribing regulations for the conduct and control of alien enemies, except as such duty and responsibility is superseded by the designation of military areas hereunder.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

The White House,

February 19, 1942.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:12 PM

Yup, and Ronald Reagan belated apologized on behalf of the US Government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:13 PM

Kosovo:
"...Mr. Clinton is overriding major concerns of senior Pentagon officials that the administration has no clear-cut military goals and that this will soon involve twice as many U.S. troops as he predicts. They believe this will seriously overburden U.S. ground forces already committed to missions in the Persian Gulf, Bosnia and Korea...."

..."If Republicans allow Mr. Clinton to go ahead with his unconstitutional, costly, foolish and dangerous expedition to Kosovo, where we have no national security interest, they are forfeiting any claim to lead America..."


Excerpted from Howard Phillips Issues and Strategy Bulletin of February 28, 1998


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:21 PM

Clinton and crybabies
Clinton and crybabies
Clinton and crybabies
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:36 PM

Do these facts that echo the present state of affairs bring tears to your eyes?


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:44 PM

"...Mr. Clinton said he is weighing a proposal from the Defense Department to establish a commander in chief for the defense of the continental United States, a step that civil liberties groups strongly resist...."

"...Such a program would go far beyond the civil defense measures and bomb shelters that marked the cold war, setting up instead a military leadership to help fight chaos and disarray if an attack occurred. Pentagon commanders oversee regions around the globe, but not the continental United States."

"...Critics fear such moves could open the door to rising military influence and a loss of individual rights, but Mr. Clinton insisted that such erosions would never occur....Congress has usually supported White House efforts to fight terrorism...."

"...But civil libertarians and some Administration officials fear that such military power could slowly expand to threaten the privacy, liberty and lives of private citizens. Defenders of the plan, including Pentagon officials, insist that it would do no such thing and that the nation needed homeland defense to deal with terrorists armed with deadly germs, chemicals and skills for attacking the nation's key computer networks...."

"...a senior Pentagon official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity, warned that a major terrorist attack had the potential to be ‘the most threatening event to civil liberties since Pearl Harbor.’..."


Excerpted from Howard Phillips Issues and Strategy Bulletin of January 31, 1999


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 09:48 PM

No, Old Guy, but you're scoring very high on the yawn-meter.

You try to justify Bush's incompetence by pointing at historical precedents. Haven't you ever heard the proverb, "Those who will not learn from history are doomed to repeat it?"

Do you have any solution for the mess the country is in now, or is trying to exonerate Bush as the country goes into the tank all you've got?

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:24 PM

LEGAL AUTHORITIES SUPPORTING THE ACTIVITIES OF THE
NATIONAL SECURITY AGENCY DESCRIBED BY THE PRESIDENT

"The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the president has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes," Deputy Attorney General Jamie Gorelick testified before the Senate Intelligence Committee on July 14, 1994, "and that the President may, as has been done, delegate this authority to the Attorney General."

...Amending the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act: Hearings Before the House Permanent Select Comm. on Intelligence,103d Cong. 2d Sess. 61 (1994) (statement of Deputy Attorney General Jamie S. Gorelick) “The Department of Justice believes, and the case law supports, that the President has inherent authority to conduct warrantless physical searches for foreign intelligence purposes ”...

...The courts uniformly have approved this longstanding Executive Branch practice. Indeed, every federal appellate court to rule on the question has concluded that, even in peacetime, the President has inherent constitutional authority, consistent with the Fourth
Amendment, to conduct searches for foreign intelligence purposes without securing a judicial warrant...

..All the other courts to have decided the issue have held that the President did have inherent authority to conduct warrantless searches to obtain foreign intelligence information...

...We take for granted that the President does have that authority and, assuming that is so, FISA could not encroach on the President’s constitutional power.”...

...From a constitutional standpoint, foreign intelligence surveillance such as the NSA activities differs fundamentally from the domestic security surveillance at issue...

...As the Fourth Circuit observed, the President has uniquely strong constitutional powers in matters pertaining to foreign affairs and national security. “Perhaps most crucially, the executive branch
not only has superior expertise in the area of foreign intelligence, it is also constitutionally designated as the pre-eminent authority in foreign affairs.” ...

... The present circumstances that support recognition of the President’s inherent constitutional authority to conduct the NSA activities are considerably stronger than were the circumstances at issue in the earlier courts of appeals cases that recognized this power. ...

...Among the President’s most basic constitutional duties is the duty to protect the Nation from armed attack. The Constitution gives him all necessary authority to fulfill that responsibility....

...It is important to understand that the rules and methodology for criminal searches are inconsistent with the collection of foreign intelligence and would unduly frustrate the President in carrying
out his foreign intelligence responsibilities...

...We believe that the warrant clause of the Fourth Amendment is inapplicable to such foreign intelligence searches.”); see also In re
Sealed Case, 310 F.3d 745. The object of foreign intelligence collection is securing information necessary to protect the national security from the hostile designs of foreign powers like al Qaeda and affiliated terrorist organizations, including the possibility of another foreign attack on the United States. In foreign intelligence investigations, moreover, the targets of surveillance often are agents of foreign powers, including international terrorist groups, who may be specially trained in concealing their activities and whose activities may be particularly difficult to detect.
The Executive requires a greater degree of flexibility in this field to respond with speed and absolute secrecy to the ever-changing array of foreign threats faced by the Nation.
In particular, the NSA activities are undertaken to prevent further devastating attacks on our Nation, and they serve the highest government purpose through means other than traditional law enforcement. The NSA activities are designed to enable the Government to act quickly and flexibly (and with secrecy) to find agents of al Qaeda and its affiliates an international terrorist group which has already demonstrated a capability to infiltrate American communities
without being detected"in time to disrupt future terrorist attacks against the United States. As explained by the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court of Review, the nature of the “emergency” posed by al Qaeda “takes the matter out of the realm of ordinary crime control.” In re Sealed Case, 310 F.3d at 746. Thus, under the “special needs” doctrine, no warrant is required by the Fourth Amendment for the NSA activities...

Exerpted from U.S. Department of Justice
Washington, D.C. 20530
January 19, 2006
http://fl1.findlaw.com/news.findlaw.com/hdocs/docs/nsa/dojnsa11906wp.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: TIA
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 10:29 PM

What Don said.

This thread is dead. No new information, and no hope of a reasoned response.

Buh-bye.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 23 Oct 06 - 11:01 PM

You don't mind talking about the precedents when it suits you does it?

So long.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 12:45 AM

"Founding Fathers are clawin' at their coffin lids tryin' to get out and scream, "This ain't what we had in mind!!!""

Well, they never had the internet or telecomincations in mind either. Could they have forseen that some maniac in Pakistan could email plans to blow up a building, coordiante the various operatives and wire them money? Forge passports? Stuff nukes in freight containers? Foment Jihad over the internet?

Maybe if they had known they could have given is some protection from that stuff.

Besides, like Amos said, that is ancient history. What matters is what is happening right now. So maybe we should forget sbout what the founding fathers left out because they couldn't see future technology, deal with the present situation and do whatever is necessary.

Or maybe Bobert is willing to break the "Ancient History" taboo and tell us what they had in mind about how to deal with these things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Barry Finn
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 01:02 AM

They tried to afford all the protection they could & up till now they did a damn fine job of it too.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Spying, Secrecy, and Presidential Power
From: Old Guy
Date: 24 Oct 06 - 09:26 AM

Yes sir, they did. And as you can see by reading their blueprints, they left foreign policy and national security to the discretion of the President.


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