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BS: Again?

The Fooles Troupe 11 May 06 - 10:59 PM
CarolC 11 May 06 - 11:36 AM
beardedbruce 11 May 06 - 11:26 AM
CarolC 11 May 06 - 10:08 AM
beardedbruce 11 May 06 - 08:51 AM
beardedbruce 11 May 06 - 08:19 AM
beardedbruce 11 May 06 - 07:03 AM
CarolC 10 May 06 - 05:49 PM
CarolC 10 May 06 - 05:44 PM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 09:55 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 09:35 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 09:23 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 09:16 AM
redsnapper 10 May 06 - 09:08 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 May 06 - 08:42 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 08:41 AM
Bobert 10 May 06 - 08:36 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 07:37 AM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 06:22 PM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 05:46 PM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 05:41 PM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 05:39 PM
number 6 09 May 06 - 04:44 PM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 04:29 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 06 - 04:26 PM
number 6 09 May 06 - 01:52 PM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 01:48 PM
Bobert 09 May 06 - 01:40 PM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 01:23 PM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 12:50 PM
number 6 09 May 06 - 12:35 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 06 - 11:31 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 09 May 06 - 11:00 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 10:24 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 10:20 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 10:16 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 08:46 AM
Bobert 09 May 06 - 08:39 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 08:18 AM
Bobert 09 May 06 - 07:51 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 07:40 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 07:35 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 07:04 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:28 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:20 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:16 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:14 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:02 AM
The Fooles Troupe 08 May 06 - 11:33 PM
Once Famous 08 May 06 - 09:57 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:59 PM

Well,

Hitler HAD written clearly about that 'Jewish Problem' long before he started to gain real power, but he actually started on the mentally feeble, the morally feeble (homosexuals), then moved on to political enemies, communists, ministers of religion (but since he had a deal with the pope, he left HIS boyos alone, mostly, allowing him to work on the pope's enemies, the Lutherans!) gypsies, and lots of other groups. The Jews were a good popular target too - for there was ALREADY much resentment against them, fomented by the Christian Churches over centuries, and as the war machine wound up and the country fell more strongly under political control, it became much easier to dispose quietly (without public fuss) of the large numbers of that ethnic and religious group too.

I have always felt empathy for that large ethnic/religious group, but have begun to feel increasing annoyance at the 'political takeover' of the massacre as 'just against the Jews'. That's rewriting history too!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:36 AM

So, the Afghans have been destroyed

No, the Afghans have not been destroyed. Their country has been destroyed. There is a big difference between these two things. It is possible to destroy a country without killing all of the people in it.

but the Holocaust is incomplete because ofc a few survivors...

The Holocaust wasn't about destroying a country. It was about killing everyone who belonged to a particular religion and ethnic group. Again, there is a big difference between these two things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:26 AM

We disagree on that.

So, the Afghans have been destroyed, but the Holocaust is incomplete because of a few survivors...

The mullahs in Iran would be happy to rule in a world as "destroyed" as Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:08 AM

The present existance of the Afghan people proves you wrong.

Not really, beardedbruce. The Afghan people are a threat to no-one. Their country has been destroyed.

Actually, I think that YOU and people like you are trying to create a world where Israel has ONLY the choice between being destroyed and destroying those who attack them- While I would rather see one where the threats to Israel's existance are not ignored. I feel that peace is still possible- YOU appear to think that only the destruction of the state of Israel will "solve" the problem.

Hardly. I think that the course of action you are advocating is far more likely to result in the destruction of Israel than the course of action that I am advocating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 06 - 08:51 AM

"There are many people who, like you, will not consider the job complete until all of the Muslim world is destroyed. "


Any suggestion that I have been saying THAT is a total fabrication on your part, and is nothing more than a cheap attempt to score points.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 06 - 08:19 AM

CarolC,

"I refuted it, beardedbruce, when I told you that it is not necessary to blanket the entire area of Iran with nuclear bombs to completely destroy it. And I provided a valid example to back up my assertion."


The present existance of the Afghan people proves you wrong.

Your TELLING me something does not make it true.

Ihave firsthand knowledge of NATO installations that were considered "a-bomb proof" ( In Europe)- They were expected to survive a nuclear strike, and be able to resume operations. That was in the 1970's- I think that the Iranians are more than capable of having such now.

As noted in another thread, the MAJORITY in Iran DOES NOT support the mullahs- BUT the 10% or so that does HAS CONTROL. So, why would the Mullahs care if say, 60% of the population was killed, as long as THEY kept alive?

You have NOT refuted my arguement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 06 - 07:03 AM

CarolC,

"So if this is your logic, how do you propose to stop what you consider inevitable without destroying the whole of the Islamic world? Of course, I think that might be what you are really advocating... "

I have not been advocating this- the Iranians ARE. THIS IS THE STATEMENT OF THE IRANINS. YOU have been saying that they would be totally destroyed, yet THEY do not think so- SO NO DETERRENT.

"There are many people who, like you, will not consider the job complete until all of the Muslim world is destroyed"

YOU are the one who insists that we allow the situation to become one where nuclear war becomes a reality, NOT ME. I HAVE NEVER STATED, nor implied, that ANY nation SHOULD be destroyed- while those YOU say SHOULD have nuclear weapons HAVE stated that.

"You and people like you are creating a self-fulling prophecy. "

Actually, I think that YOU and people like you are trying to create a world where Israel has ONLY the choice between being destroyed and destroying those who attack them- While I would rather see one where the threats to Israel's existance are not ignored. I feel that peace is still possible- YOU appear to think that only the destruction of the state of Israel will "solve" the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 06 - 05:49 PM

"Former president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, the presumed moderate of this gang, has explained that "the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam." The logic is impeccable, the intention clear: A nuclear attack would effectively destroy tiny Israel, while any retaliation launched by a dying Israel would have no major effect on an Islamic civilization of a billion people stretching from Mauritania to Indonesia."

So if this is your logic, how do you propose to stop what you consider inevitable without destroying the whole of the Islamic world? Of course, I think that might be what you are really advocating... the destruction of the entire Islamic world (one little bit at a time). There are many people who, like you, will not consider the job complete until all of the Muslim world is destroyed. And that is why people like the leaders in Iran are so determined to be able to defend themselves. You and people like you are creating a self-fulling prophecy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 06 - 05:44 PM

I refuted it, beardedbruce, when I told you that it is not necessary to blanket the entire area of Iran with nuclear bombs to completely destroy it. And I provided a valid example to back up my assertion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:55 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:35 AM

CarolC,

Tell me what part of

"Former president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, the presumed moderate of this gang, has explained that "the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam." The logic is impeccable, the intention clear: A nuclear attack would effectively destroy tiny Israel, while any retaliation launched by a dying Israel would have no major effect on an Islamic civilization of a billion people stretching from Mauritania to Indonesia."

YOU dispute- and the reasons why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:23 AM

Bobert,

"No, I made my arguments, Bruce..."

Which I read, and responded dierectly to.

" You just dismissed them because you didn't like them... "

A FALSE statement on your part- I provided facts that showed that your arguements were NOT supported by facrts, and invited you to provide facts to back them up

"All you wanted to do was engage me in a pointless debate about how manhy angels can dance on the end of a pin..."

THAT is YOUR effort not mine.

"Then you, in yer twisted manner, havin' not really responded to anything I said other than your standard mantra of expecting me to "PROVE" somethin' that is basically unproveable "

WHAT did I NOT respond to? PLEASE give me an example.


"and when I told you that and gave you an example (cigarettes and cancer) you twisted by answer to insinuate that I supported genocide???"

I stated that YOU have the same level of support for genocide as YOU have, without any facts, sstated that Martin and Bush have. I then invited you to provide some support for YOUR accusations, which YOU have NOT done.


That, sir, was insulting and no mre productive than anything that Martin Gibson might throw into a discussion...

So, YOU have the right to make unfounded accusations, and have YOUR opinions accepted as fact without support, while those who disagree with you do not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:16 AM

RS,

I DO NOT DENY THAT.

But HOW does the actions of those brave, couragous individuals negate the statement:
"The establishment of Israel was a Jewish declaration to a world that had allowed the Holocaust to happen -- after Hitler had made his intentions perfectly clear -- that the Jews would henceforth resort to self-protection and self-reliance."?

CarolC states The Israeli government does..." all the time- IF I POINT OUT that a few members of that government DID NOT do whatever she said, does that mean HER statement is false?

DID the Holocaust HAPPPEN? The implication she presents is that it did not, since ALL the Jews were not killed.

DID the world stop it from happening? If so, why did 6 million Jews, 2 million Gypsies, and a number of others die?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: redsnapper
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:08 AM

Beardedbruce,

To support CarolC's statement that individuals often played a very great part in the saving of Jews in WW2, a well-documented (but little-known) example is the saving of around 7000 Jews in Denmark (boated over to the Swedish mainland or via the Swedish Island of Ven) was organized by a very small group of Danish resistance fighters, and is well documented. It was actually a single German official, Georg Duckwitz, who leaked the information about the imminent deportation to a Danish politician and thence to the resistance. Only a very few were caught and a number of ordinary local Danish fishermen, who assisted in the evacuation, were killed by the Nazis.

Often, it has been ordinary people, rather than governments, that have made the difference.

RS


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:42 AM

My father was a Warrant officer in the RAAF in England/Scotland up til VE Day, then returned to Australia to organise burying the training casualities (his least favourite job) at Bundaberg Base where he met my mum - that's my excuse. Anyway - he did his assigned boring bit of being a very small cog in a very large military machine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:41 AM

Bobert,

YOU stated that the nuclear devices available to Israel would be a deterrent. My statements were to disprove THAT statement- which I believe thay have, as you did not give any alternative reasons that would refute them.

As for the apology, YOU owe several BEFORE I need to give you one- Or are YOU the broiwnshirt, insisting on special priviledges?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:36 AM

No, I made my arguments, Bruce... You just dismissed them because you didn't like them... All you wanted to do was engage me in a pointless debate about how manhy angels can dance on the end of a pin... Then you, in yer twisted manner, havin' not really responded to anything I said other than your standard mantra of expecting me to "PROVE" somethin' that is basically unproveable and when I told you that and gave you an example (cigarettes and cancer) you twisted by answer to insinuate that I supported genocide???

That, sir, was insulting and no mre productive than anything that Martin Gibson might throw into a discussion...

Onme thing, however, is that in reading your posts I can clearly see how folks like you and your hero, George W., get themselves into such messes... There is a dogmatism to both of you that stimies the exchange of free ideas... This is exactly what the brownshirts did 'cept in this case you won't bully me with your insults...

When Martin started harassing me last year I just started ignoring him and he stopped so that's what I'm going to do with you... You may flail away at me as much as you like but guess what, pal??? A lot of people see right thru yer tactics and the more you flail and try to make it look as I'm the one with the probelms the more you prove the observations I have made...

Now I will go back to ignoring your borish and inulting posts...

Regards,

Bobert

p.s. You still owe me an apology, sir...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 07:37 AM

Tried? SHOW ME where he made ANY refutation.


YOU have "tried" to claim that the world DID STOP the Holocaust.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:22 PM

...as you "tried" to demonstrate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:46 PM

which, as I demonstrated to Bobert, will not deter Iran in the least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:41 PM

And the world doesn't need the people who fought Hitler to return to save the day. We now have a huge nuclear stockpile to serve as our deterrant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:39 PM

beardedbruce, that kind of snide comment is, as I said before, beneath contempt.

My uncle was one of the many thousands I have been consistently talking about, who did their best to help. Any suggestion that I have been saying anything other than that is a total fabrication on your part, and is nothing more than a cheap attempt to score points.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:44 PM

Don T ... "Cheney and Rove" ... now those 2, specifically Cheney has what it takes to be a good dictator of a fascist nation.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:29 PM

Fine, CarolC. Your uncle singlehandedly stopped the Holocaust.

But Israel cannot afford to wait for him to be resurrected, to save them again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:26 PM

Mybe not Geedubya six, but what about the puppetmasters, Cheney and Rove?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 09 May 06 - 01:52 PM

Is the U.S. currently a fascist regime or totalitarian regime. I tend to think it is totalitarian. A fascist regime is dictated by a dictator. Bush certainly isn't one .... and I don't think he has the makings of one.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 01:48 PM

Try reading my posts, and tell me what government did anything to STOP the Holocaust before Germany invaded Poland?

Try reading my posts, and you'll see that I am not talking about governments. I am talking about INDIVIDUALS. Individuals were not able to prevent the Holocaust, but they were able to stop it before it was finished. And they did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 06 - 01:40 PM

tahnk you, Don, for taking the time to point out how ignorant "left radical fascists"...

The components of facsism are quite foriegn to the beliefs of progressives....

No, if one looks at what the BVush administartion has tried to pull off one will find almost every component of fascist thinking:

1. Centralization of power? check

2. Push of nationalism? check

3. Goon squads? (brownshirts) check

4. Heave ties to the "industrialists"? hello

5. Persecution of minority opinions? hello, part B

Yeah, let's keep this in perspective here, folks...

I find it curious that Martin can support an administration which practices the tenants of fascism???

This isn't merely an opinion but general observastions, as well...

And, BTW, Mudcat has it's share of goons/brownshirts...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 01:23 PM

"This makes you and your ancestors responsible for all of the crimes against humanity that have ever been committed by anyone, for any reason,"

If one goes far enogh back, we are all descended from the same few individuals.

But I am glad that you, from your god-like position of judgement, have deigned to inform me of my many flaws.


Try reading my posts, and tell me what government did anything to STOP the Holocaust before Germany invaded Poland?



"You don't seem to have the ability to understand the difference between "some" and "all", "

Some of what you have said is significant- the problem is that you think all of it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 12:50 PM

"The worst crimes were dared by a few, willed by more, and tolerated by all." Tacitus, Roman historian.

This makes you and your ancestors responsible for all of the crimes against humanity that have ever been committed by anyone, for any reason, beardbruce. It's good to see you taking responsibility.


The destruction of European Jewry was a gradual, well-organized legal process. The Nazi party and the Reichstag codified a racist legal system to exclude, disenfranchise and murder Jews. The system was upheld and enforced by the German judiciary. This pattern was followed to varying degrees in occupied territories and by sympathetic regimes in Italy, Bohemia-Moravia, Slovakia, France, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Hungary, Rumania, Greece and Poland. This is, indeed, ironic since Western government rests on the precept that civil authority is necessary to protect us against evil.

The environment that made the Holocaust possible was aided by prewar European apathy as well as a concerted effort by the Allies to restrict Jewish immigration below legal quota limits. The ultimate Catch-22 for German Jews is that they were not considered German citizens by the Nazis (Nuremberg Laws, 1935), yet the Americans still classified them as citizens of the Reich and maintained their annual immigration quota at 25,000. "


Yes, I'm quite aware that these things were supported by quite a few people. But they were not supported by the entire world. If they had been, all of Europe's Jews would have been eliminated.

You don't seem to have the ability to understand the difference between "some" and "all", beardedbruce. A tragic flaw that you share with many others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 09 May 06 - 12:35 PM

Excellent post Art.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 06 - 11:31 AM

"From: Martin Gibson - PM
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:39 AM

Beardedbruce

You have completely blown away CarolC and bobert with your arguement. bobert wants to blame his constipation on Bush and comes across as quite foolish.

Both him and carolc are far left radical fascists (snip)



What the holy screaming f**k is a far left radical fascist?

Fascists by definition are about as far to the right as you can get without disappearing completely, and radical just doesn't fit the profile either.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 May 06 - 11:00 AM

Spain---'37----International brigades including the Lincoln Brigade from the U.S. stood up against the Hitler-Luftwaffe-backed Franco. Arguably, that turned into the Holocaust and the horror of the those four main years of World War 2.

Labeled "premature fascists" and abandoned/harassed by the U.S. government at home, the events unfolded.

Given that hindsight is clearer than the fog of war, Bush is, at least, striving to head off something that he and his henchmen have "foreseen"! I have never supported Bush in this forum, but at least I can see what he is trying to do.

Again, "the best laid plans of mice and men..."

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 10:24 AM

U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Robert Jordan noted: "We have noticed lately in influential mosques the imam has condemned terrorism and preached in favor of tolerance, then closed the sermon with 'O God, please destroy the Jews, the infidels, and all who support them.'"25 In short, all dimensions of the supposed Saudi war on terrorism look incomplete.
(25. Lisa Beyer, "Inside the Kingdom," Time, September 15, 2003. )




Bobert, you state "But, like I have said, the Saudi Porposal is a framework and the Saudi's can be brought back into the equation because they are so dependent on the US for security... I have never said that just because Bush made the wrong decision that the Saudi Propasl was dead in the water... Yeah, probably dead for the next 1000 days but, hey, things will change and here is a viable option..."

yet the above information leads one to believe that the Saudis had more to due with the collapse of the "road map" than anything the US did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 10:20 AM

"The Israeli national assessment is that Saudi Arabia today funds more than 50 percent of the needs of Hamas, and the Saudi percentage in the total foreign aid to Hamas is actually growing. U.S. law enforcement officials agree.22 Some Israeli estimates of the Saudi portion of the Hamas budget have been put at 60-70 percent.23 Saudi Arabia continues to aid the families of suicide bombers. It helps dual-use charities and charities that funnel funds directly to military activities against Israel. Indeed, in August 2003, the Hamas spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yasin, thanked IIRO and WAMY for their assistance during a public address in the Gaza Strip.

On June 29, 2003, Hamas agreed to a temporary truce with Israel called a hudna, but at the same time vigorously sought to rebuild its operational infrastructure, including an effort to increase the quantity and quality of Qassam rockets launched against Israelis towns. Muslim writers have argued in the past that a hudna is to be maintained until the balance of power improves for the Muslim side. Funding Hamas clearly jeopardized efforts to reach a full-scale cease-fire between Israel and the Palestinians and increased the likelihood that Hamas would escalate its militant actions. By August 28, 2003, Hamas was able to launch one of its new extended-range Qassam rockets, developed during the hudna, a distance of nearly six miles, striking the outskirts of Ashkelon. The hudna had already collapsed.

"


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 10:16 AM

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm


Seems reasonable, but the devil is in the details. I have not checked all the UNSCRs to see what they state, nor do I understand how the borders will be negotiated, and then later go to the Pre-1967 line- Which is most likely NOT acceptable. SOME negotiation from the 1967 line is needed.


"In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel. Palestinians and Israelis resume security cooperation based on the Tenet work plan to end violence, terrorism, and incitement through restructured and effective Palestinian security services"
...
At the outset of Phase I:

Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel's right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.

Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end incitement against Palestinians.


Which the present Palestinian government has ruled out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:46 AM

Bobert,


You feel it's okay to accuse Martin and Bush of not being against genocide???



YOU said "He couldn't care less if genocide is practiced on other folks... Or if he does he never gets around to mentioning it..."

and "what Bush has ordered our troops to do in Iraq is a form of genocide "


I said "Oh, I guess if they are not people YOU support it does not matter what happens to them."
YOUR SILENCE IS AS SIGNIFICANT AS MARTIN'S.

Are yours NOT insulting? I have offered to apologize when YOU have, since YOU stated them first.


Have a nice summer....

See you at the Getaway... - I have another EKO- flattop.

Regard,

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:39 AM

Oh, I get it now, bruce...

I criticize Martin and Bush so you feel it's okay to accuse me of not being against genocide???

Hmmmmm????

As far as I'm concerned this discussion is over with you... You have insulted me and rationalized it in yer twisted little mind...

And, for the record, YOU owe me an apology./..

Have a nice summer....

See you at the Getaway...

Regard,

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:18 AM

Bobert,


I have never seen a FINAL version of the Saudi proposal- If you would send me a link to what you consider one, I will give you my comments on it. I suspect there will be points I agree with, and ones I do not, from the preliminary proposal I have seen.


"As fir genocide, I'm not the one who wears Jewishness on my sleeeve... If I were then, yeah, I might be faulted for not having made more statements regarding genocide... "

I did not know that only Jews were supposed to be concerned about genocide. THAT reflects poorly upon the rest of you. You do claim to be a human being: Is not genocide a concern for you?



"And as fir your accusation that I support genocide, sir, that is totally from your imagination and I challenge you to provide one post, out of the 10,000 some posts I have made here in this forum that would support this accusatioon/suggestion or ***apollogize*** for making itm sir!!! It, my friend, is out of the civilized rules of discussion/debate!!!"

I shall, of course, apologiize as soon as YOU have, to Martin and Bush. YOU have accused them: Either provide your evidence, or withdraw the accusation!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:51 AM

Okay, fine, Bruce... May I assume then that you are okay with the basics of the Saudi Proposal??? A "yes" or "no" will suffice...

As fir genocide, I'm not the one who wears Jewishness on my sleeeve... If I were then, yeah, I might be faulted for not having made more statements regarding genocide... But I have mentioned the genocide in the Sudan in threads where it was appropriate...

But in a sense, what Bush has ordered our troops to do in Iraq is a form of genocide and seein' as this is being done in the name of my country, this particular issue weighs in heavily on my soul...

And as fir your accusation that I support genocide, sir, that is totally from your imagination and I challenge you to provide one post, out of the 10,000 some posts I have made here in this forum that would support this accusatioon/suggestion or ***apollogize*** for making itm sir!!! It, my friend, is out of the civilized rules of discussion/debate!!!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:40 AM

So, CarolC, what DID the world do prior to the invasion of Poland to stop the Holocaust?


The quote (NOT my words) still stands:

"The establishment of Israel was a Jewish declaration to a world that had allowed the Holocaust to happen -- after Hitler had made his intentions perfectly clear -- that the Jews would henceforth resort to self-protection and self-reliance."

No insult is intended to those who fought in WWII- but THEY DID NOT STOP THE HOLOCAUST.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:35 AM

Bobert,

"Look at way that Martin views "Never Again"... Me and mine... He couldn't care less if genocide is practiced on other folks... Or if he does he never gets around to mentioning it..."

I have seen as much from Martin about genocide as I have from YOU-

You seem to find a lot to criticize about Bush, but say NOTHING about Sudan. And where are your comments on Bosnia/Serbia? Or even Cambodia?

Oh, I guess if they are not people YOU support it does not matter what happens to them.

The Iranians are presently far more likely to kill off the Palestinians than the Israelis are. And far less likely to care about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:04 AM

correction to 6:02 post- UNR1441


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:28 AM

"Last week Bernard Lewis, America's dean of Islamic studies, who just turned 90 and remembers the 20th century well, confessed that for the first time he feels it is 1938 again. He did not need to add that in 1938, in the face of the gathering storm -- a fanatical, aggressive, openly declared enemy of the West, and most determinedly of the Jews -- the world did nothing."


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:20 AM

"During this period, Breckinridge Long, Undersecretary of State for European Affairs, orchestrated American foreign policy to prevent Jews from immigrating. He felt Jews would become spies and saboteurs and urged foreign consuls to use any means necessary to frustrate Jewish sanctuary. Long circulated a memo to foreign embassies in 1939 asking them to erect barriers to Jewish immigration. That same year a special bill was proposed in Congress asking for sanctuary for 10,000 children outside of the quota system. The bill died in Committee. Six months later, legislation was overwhelmingly approved to allow 15,000 children from war-torn England to emigrate. In 1941, the State Department issued a directive that paperwork associated with immigration had to be filled out in Washington, D.C., rather than European embassies. At the Bermuda Conference, (April 1943) , Long successfully argued against making concessions to Jews. On November 26, 1943, the Undersecretary intentionally misled Congress to abandon legislation that would have set up a special commission to deal with the rescue of Jews. In late 1943 , the Treasury Department documented that the State Department advised the Swiss delegation not to accept data from private organizations about extermination camps. The War Refugee Board, which rescued approximately 200, 000 Jews and other victims of Nazi persecution, was not established until January 22, 1944. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:16 AM

"In late May 1939, the St. Louis, a ship carrying 936 European refugees, of which 900 were Jewish, was denied access to Cuba. The Cuban government asked for a "$500,000 entry fee." The boat lingered off the shores of the United States from June 4-6, 1939. The Coast Guard prevented the passengers from disembarking despite the fact 734 refugees had valid, American quota numbers. Roosevelt was silent. The ship returned to Antwerp on June 17, 1939, and most of the Jews perished in the Holocaust.

...
In May 1939, the British promulgated the White Paper to appease Arab interests in the Middle East. This foreign policy position restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine to 15,000 Jews per year for five years. The White Paper was a violation of the British Mandate as charged by the League of Nations. The British committed substantial naval resources to enforce the policy and, in effect, trapped European Jews three months before the outbreak of World War II. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:14 AM

CarolC,

"The worst crimes were dared by a few, willed by more, and tolerated by all." Tacitus, Roman historian.


The destruction of European Jewry was a gradual, well-organized legal process. The Nazi party and the Reichstag codified a racist legal system to exclude, disenfranchise and murder Jews. The system was upheld and enforced by the German judiciary. This pattern was followed to varying degrees in occupied territories and by sympathetic regimes in Italy, Bohemia-Moravia, Slovakia, France, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Hungary, Rumania, Greece and Poland. This is, indeed, ironic since Western government rests on the precept that civil authority is necessary to protect us against evil.

The environment that made the Holocaust possible was aided by prewar European apathy as well as a concerted effort by the Allies to restrict Jewish immigration below legal quota limits. The ultimate Catch-22 for German Jews is that they were not considered German citizens by the Nazis (Nuremberg Laws, 1935), yet the Americans still classified them as citizens of the Reich and maintained their annual immigration quota at 25,000. "


"Of course Israel should negotiate with them. It has no other choice."


"Hamas Charter: Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware." From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:02 AM

Bobert,

"You say go to the United Nations... Great. except yer guy had marginalized the UN with his attack on Iraq..."

The UN marginalized itself by it's failure to take action on Iraq as per UNR1447. In case you didn't notice.

"Now, brucie, go back to pokin' holes in the proposal... "

STOP telling ME what to do- I have not poked holes in that proposal, and you know it. If you think it has so many holes, YOU point them out. I just wanted to know

"As for the Roadplan, tell me again how that would keep IRAN from its STATED goal of the destruction of Israel? Or Hamas from ITS stated goal of the destruction of Israel? "


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 06 - 11:33 PM

Pull up your pants, you're showing your ignorance again, Marty!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:57 PM

I thought it was Moe Howard.


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