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BS: Again?

beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 06:43 PM
Bert 05 May 06 - 06:50 PM
Sorcha 05 May 06 - 07:33 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 May 06 - 08:15 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 08:22 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 May 06 - 08:39 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 08:43 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 08:48 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 08:58 PM
CarolC 05 May 06 - 09:33 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 09:37 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:16 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:22 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:33 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 10:45 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:51 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:53 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:58 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:01 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 11:11 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:15 PM
CarolC 05 May 06 - 11:25 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:25 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:30 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 11:31 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:42 PM
CarolC 05 May 06 - 11:42 PM
number 6 05 May 06 - 11:44 PM
CarolC 05 May 06 - 11:49 PM
number 6 05 May 06 - 11:59 PM
Bunnahabhain 06 May 06 - 04:35 AM
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C. Ham 06 May 06 - 11:39 AM
Once Famous 06 May 06 - 11:41 AM
number 6 06 May 06 - 02:19 PM
Barry Finn 06 May 06 - 03:06 PM
Bobert 06 May 06 - 08:21 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 May 06 - 08:59 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 May 06 - 09:02 PM
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Subject: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:43 PM

"The establishment of Israel was a Jewish declaration to a world that had allowed the Holocaust to happen -- after Hitler had made his intentions perfectly clear -- that the Jews would henceforth resort to self-protection and self-reliance. And so they have, building a Jewish army, the first in 2,000 years, that prevailed in three great wars of survival (1948-49, 1967 and 1973).

But in a cruel historical irony, doing so required concentration -- putting all the eggs back in one basket, a tiny territory hard by the Mediterranean, eight miles wide at its waist. A tempting target for those who would finish Hitler's work.

His successors now reside in Tehran. The world has paid ample attention to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's declaration that Israel must be destroyed. Less attention has been paid to Iranian leaders' pronouncements on exactly how Israel would be "eliminated by one storm," as Ahmadinejad has promised.

Former president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, the presumed moderate of this gang, has explained that "the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam." The logic is impeccable, the intention clear: A nuclear attack would effectively destroy tiny Israel, while any retaliation launched by a dying Israel would have no major effect on an Islamic civilization of a billion people stretching from Mauritania to Indonesia.

As it races to acquire nuclear weapons, Iran makes clear that if there is any trouble, the Jews will be the first to suffer. "We have announced that wherever [in Iran] America does make any mischief, the first place we target will be Israel," said Gen. Mohammad Ebrahim Dehghani, a top Revolutionary Guards commander. Hitler was only slightly more direct when he announced seven months before invading Poland that, if there was another war, "the result will be . . . the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."

Last week Bernard Lewis, America's dean of Islamic studies, who just turned 90 and remembers the 20th century well, confessed that for the first time he feels it is 1938 again. He did not need to add that in 1938, in the face of the gathering storm -- a fanatical, aggressive, openly declared enemy of the West, and most determinedly of the Jews -- the world did nothing.

When Iran's mullahs acquire their coveted nukes in the next few years, the number of Jews in Israel will just be reaching 6 million. Never again?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/04/AR2006050401458.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bert
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:50 PM

Sigh! Yeah, we should have given them the Panhandle of Texas!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 May 06 - 07:33 PM

Hell, give them ALL of Texas!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:15 PM

There once was a movement here that wanted to give the Jewish people a sizable chunk of Australia as a separate nation: once 'Israel' was started, the idea fizzled out. And anyway it was not really wanted, Jerusalem was not in Australia...

I'm not making this up you know...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:26 PM

Actually, the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne, as well as the San Remo conference of 1920, set up a Jewish Homeland over the entire region now known as Israel, the West Bank AND much of Jordan. Too bad the British did not keep THEIR part of the treaty.

"The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917, under which the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine"


and

How about this?

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html

"The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917, under which the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The conference's decisions were embodied in the stillborn Treaty of Sèvres (Section VII, Art 94-97). As Turkey rejected this treaty, the conference's decisions were only finally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:39 PM

"the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Reread that entire carefully worded bit carefully, especially in the light of subsequent historical events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:43 PM

Please read the referenced article and see what was resolved- the greater part of the "Jewish Homeland" was reserved for the ARAB population, and became the country of Jordan. LOOK at the map of the Mandate area.

"the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." Like in the Arab countries where the Jews were driven out...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:48 PM

Yo, bb....

Do you happen to know how many nuclear weapons that Isreal posesses that can easily find Iran on the map???

I mean, let's get real here...

This crap got outta control when yer guy, George W., took it upon himself to defy all odds that he could succeed at just one thing in his life by attacking Irag and destabilizing an allready volitile area of the world...

It was Bush with his cowboy-foriegn-policy that has brought about so much sabre rattlin'...

Not only that, in attacking Iraq based on a bunch of manipulated intellegence, he has lost the credibility and support he now needs to handle the Iranian situation...

What we need is some fresh thinging that doesn't involve a bunch of blustering and threats...

I don't know how much experience you have had with Arabs but I've had a lot and the US needs to understand the Arab culture in designing it's policies... Hy-way-or-the-highway make work with some kid making minimum wage in Texas but it ain't gonna work in the Arab world...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:58 PM

"Do you happen to know how many nuclear weapons that Isreal posesses that can easily find Iran on the map???"

" whereas it will only damage the world of Islam" Iran does not care about it's people- they used civilians to set off mines during the Iraq war, to protect their tanks. So, why would THEY care about what Israel would do to them? YOU STATE "needs to understand the Arab culture ", yet you do not do so yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 06 - 09:33 PM

The mullahs want to stay in power. How can they hope to do that if they don't have a country to rule over? You're ignoring their main reason for pretty much everything they do. That's the reason they won't attack Israel. If they attack Israel, they lose their country and the entire reason for their own existance. They won't do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 09:37 PM

Ahhhh, bb, listen to me here fir a second...

Not all Arabs have the death wish and the promise of a room full of virgins... No, might of fact. them folks represent a small minority...

Hey, these folks have houses and lives and kids in college and they aren't out there hoping to get themselves blowed up 'er nuthin...

Isreal has enough deliverable nuclear power to wipe out 100% of Iran... Not 99%!!! See, that's where the deterant aspect of ownin' a bunch of nukes comes into power... If I'm Ahmadinejadi, I know this... Sure, since Bush is runnin' his cowboy "Bring -it-on" mouth, and I undersdtand that Bush has blown all possibilities of building any coilition, hey, I'm gonna please my constituants and woff-wwo it up...

This is Politics 101... Same here as there...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:16 PM

Sorry, Bobert, you do not have the correct facts.

Total number of Israeli bombs- on the order of 400 +_200 So, lets use 500 for overkill.

Average yield- est. about 140 kt each ( No fuion devices)

Area of 80% destruction for 140 KT bomb

"Another is how the devices are used. The radius of destruction of nuclear devices is actually quite limited; this is a natural outgrowth of working on the inverse square law. Even with one of the "big" 1 megaton weapons, its fury is largely spent by the time the blast wave has reached ten miles from center. The smaller devices have lesser radii although the workings of the cube power rule mean that those radii are not as small as the difference in explosive power suggests. "

Let us say about 6 miles, given a firestorm with NO attempt to put it out.


So, YOU claim that Iran has less than 500 x pi x 9 square miles of area? ( about 14,000 square miles- )


"With an area of 1,648,000 square kilometers, Iran ranks sixteenth in size among the countries of the world. Iran is about one-fifth the size of the continental United States, or slightly larger than the combined area of the contiguous states of California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho. "


WRONG AGAIN


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:22 PM

sorry, we should use 36 instead of 9- 56,000 square miles A little over 145,000 sq km.

You want to tell me that 145,000 is BIGGER than 1,648,000?????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:33 PM

CarolC,

You state "The mullahs want to stay in power. How can they hope to do that if they don't have a country to rule over? You're ignoring their main reason for pretty much everything they do. That's the reason they won't attack Israel. If they attack Israel, they lose their country and the entire reason for their own existance. They won't do that. "


I disagree. YOU are calling the mullahs liars. THEY have stated that the reason is religious- thus your logic does not apply. Even if it requires the sacrifice of the entire Palestinian people and a large percentage of their own population, I think that they would not hesitate to try to destroy Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:45 PM

First of all, bb, you can't possibly know what Isreal has 'er you would have top ranked security clearance and by divulging this info would get you some serious jail time...

Secondlym who the heck cares if Isreal can blow up 87% of Iran or 99% of Iran???

The premise is that if you are the leader of Iran, the differences in the percentages don't mean jack...

So you can take yer screming "YOUR WRONG" and congitate on yer your breraching national security classified info.... That is if yer info is correct???

Hmmmmmm??? Think about it....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:51 PM

Sorry, Bobert- LESS than 9%, not 87 or 99%


And, in the public domain....   


New York, 13 May (AKI) - A former Pentagon official and whistle-blower, Daniel Ellsberg, said this week that Israel could have close to 400 nuclear weapons. "That's more than Britain, China, India and Pakistan, and probably more than France," said Ellsberg speaking at a news conference in New York on Thuirsday. Ellsberg, whose disclosure of secret Pentagon documents about the Vietnam war helped established anti-war sentiment in the United States in the early 1970s, was scheduled address a Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty conference, at the UN's New York headquarters..

While Israeli nuclear technician Mordechai Vanunu had revealed in 1986 that Israel had about 200 nuclear weapons, by the same rate of production observed by Vanunu at the Israeli Dimona plant, today Israel would have the capacity to have up to 400 nuclear weapons, Ellsberg said.

Vanunu has served 18 years in prison in Israel for releasing information about Israel's atomic programme to a British newspaper in 1986. He has been barred from leaving the country until April 2006 and went on trial last month for allegedly violating a condition of his 2004 release that banned contacts with foreigners.

Israel neither acknowledges nor denies having a nuclear weapons programme, following a policy of nuclear ambiguity.

At Thursday's newsconference, Ellsberg also said Vanunu should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for revealing Israel's nuclear arsenal. The technician, who was kidnapped by Israeli secret agents in Italy and brought to trial in Israel, shoul also be allowed to travel the world to promote the abolition of nuclear weapons, Ellsberg said.

After recently spending five days with Vanunu in Israel, Ellsberg dismissed the Israeli government's claim that Vanunu still had secrets that could endanger national security as 'absurd'.

"It's clearly an attempt to prolong his sentence indefinitely, sending him back to prison for years," Ellsberg said.

"The message this sends to potential Vanunus in other states is very clear, and the question at this conference is whether the nations of the world should encourage or strongly protest that message," he said.

Speaking on behalf of the non-profit Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, which promotes the abolition of nuclear weapons, Ellsberg said Israel today was probably the third or fourth-largest nuclear state — behind the United States and Russia, and possibly France."


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:53 PM

"The premise is that if you are the leader of Iran, the differences in the percentages don't mean jack..."


INVALID PREMISE-

"understand the Arab culture" You are acting as if they will react as YOU would when presented with a large death toll- THEY HAVE NOT IN THE PAST, so why would they in the future?????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:58 PM

The first public revelation of Israel's nuclear capability (as opposed to development programme) came in the London-based Sunday Times on October 5, 1986, which printed information provided by Mordechai Vanunu, formerly employed at the Negev Nuclear Research Center, a facility located in the Negev desert south of Dimona. For publication of state secrets, he was sentenced to 18 years in prison for treason and espionage. Although there had been much speculation prior to Vanunu's revelations that the Dimona site was creating nuclear weapons, Vanunu's information indicated that Israel had also built thermonuclear weapons.[5]

In 1998, former Prime Minister Shimon Peres said that Israel "built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima but an Oslo." [6]. ("Hiroshima" refers to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, while "Oslo" refers to the Oslo Peace Accords). The "nuclear option" may refer to a nuclear weapon or to the nuclear reactor in Dimona, which Israel claims is used for scientific research. However, no scientific report from the Dimona nuclear facility has ever appeared in a peer reviewed scientific journal. Peres, in his capacity as the Director General of the Ministry of Defense in the early 1950s, was responsible for building Israel's nuclear capability.[7]

According to the Nuclear Threat Initiative, based on Vanunu's information, Israel has approximately 100-200 nuclear explosive devices and a Jericho missile delivery system. A United States Defense Intelligence Agency report (leaked and published in the book "Rumsfeld's War" by journalist Richard Scarborough in 2004) puts the number of weapons at 82. U.S. intelligence sources in the late 1990s estimated 75-130 [8]. The difference might lie in the amount of material Israel has on store versus assembled weapons.

Israel has operated three modern German-built Dolphin class submarines [9] since 1999. Various reports indicate that these submarines are equipped with American-made Harpoon missiles modified to carry small nuclear warheads [10] and/or the larger Israeli-made 'Popeye Turbo' cruise missiles, originally developed for air-to-ground strike capability [11]. On October 12, 2003, The Observer reported that the United States had equipped Israeli submarines with nuclear tipped Harpoon missiles. [12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

So, I will uise the LOWER numbers from this last site, and Iran would suffer less than 3% destruction.... WHICH YOU CLAIM WOULD PREVENT THEM FROM ATTACKING ISRAEL, and acheiving their goals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:01 PM

So you can take yer screming " national security classified info" and look at what is PUBLICLY available.


Hmmmmmm??? Think about it....

Maybe you should look at facts instead of ranting about Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:11 PM

Keep arguing, bb... Yer arguing against yerself... You have no idea of the premise I have presented and you have no idea about dealing with Arabs...

If you do, then please eleaborate...

And, BTW, volume (as in numbers of posts) doesn't win debates... Ideas do and I haven't heard the first one from you other than right wing spin about how Iran is the big, bad wolf...

And BTW. Part 2, just because you may *******think******* that Israels nuclear strenght is "public domain" don't make it so.... There was a time when Iraq was thought to have all these ansty weapons, as well...

You seem perfectly willing to accept as fact anything that might support yer arguments yet unwilling to accept the fact that facts ain't always, ahhhhhh, facts...

This seem to be a pettern with you... No offense intended... Jus' tryin' to break yer cycle of acceptin' inforamtion carte blanche that supporst yer opinions as facts...

But back to ideas fir now.... What, if you were the presdient would you do about Iran (other than spin the Bush company fight song)???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:15 PM

"Thus 1 bomb with a yield of 1 megaton would destroy 80 square miles. While 8 bombs, each with a yield of 125 kilotons, would destroy 160 square miles."

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Effects/effects1.shtml

so, 100 bombs at 125kt would destroy 2000 sq miles- or 5180 sq km- a grand total of 0.3% of Iran....


Sounds like your 100% went away real quick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:25 PM

I disagree. YOU are calling the mullahs liars. THEY have stated that the reason is religious- thus your logic does not apply. Even if it requires the sacrifice of the entire Palestinian people and a large percentage of their own population, I think that they would not hesitate to try to destroy Israel.

beardedbruce, the size of Israel's nuclear stockpile is irrelevant. You need to include the US nuclear arsenal when you do your calculations. The US has enough nuclear fire power to completely destroy Iran, and the Mullahs along with it. The Mullahs know this, even if you do not. They will not nuke Israel.

My guess is that Iran is using the threat of bombing Israel as a deterrant against military agression from the US. The answer to that is not to pre-emptively destroy Iran. That would be far more likely to result in the destruction of Israel than the use of a "mutually assured destruction" deterrent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:25 PM

"Keep arguing, bb... Yer arguing against yerself... "


No, I am arguing against statements made without refence to the facts.

"You have no idea of the premise I have presented and you have no idea about dealing with Arabs..."

Than you have failed entirely to present a valid premise, since I have addressed what YOU have stated.


"If you do, then please eleaborate..."

The statement you made has been demonstarted to be false, under the public information available, and a worst case extreme picked out of the air.

"And, BTW, volume (as in numbers of posts) doesn't win debates... Ideas do and I haven't heard the first one from you other than right wing spin about how Iran is the big, bad wolf..."

I have heard no solution from you- just rants about Bush. I DO NOT
HAVE a solution- but I see that YOU depend on the goodness of the Iranian Government to stop a nuclear war.


"And BTW. Part 2, just because you may *******think******* that Israels nuclear strenght is "public domain" don't make it so.... There was a time when Iraq was thought to have all these ansty weapons, as well..."

So, You imply Israel DOES NOT have the nuclear weapons YOU are depending on to keep Iran from attacking????

"You seem perfectly willing to accept as fact anything that might support yer arguments yet unwilling to accept the fact that facts ain't always, ahhhhhh, facts..."

You have yet to present any facts, whatsoever. When you do, I will treat them as I would any other fact.

"This seem to be a pettern with you... No offense intended... Jus' tryin' to break yer cycle of acceptin' inforamtion carte blanche that supporst yer opinions as facts..."

I try to find the MOST LIKELY set of facts, NOT the ones that, by being extreme, would support one viewpoint or the other.

"But back to ideas fir now.... What, if you were the presdient would you do about Iran (other than spin the Bush company fight song)???"

I would have the UN embargo ALL imports in and out of Iran, and wait for the mushroom clouds.

WHat the hell would you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:30 PM

CarolC,


US- MAYBE 6000 warheads, average probably 200kt or less....

Gee- 24% of Iran.....ANd NOTHING left at all of the US stockpile.



Right- keep dreaming


"They will not nuke Israel"

And Hitler would never kill 6 million Jews, either- Do you really have so little regard for history?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:31 PM

Put yer ears on, son, and step back away from what you think is "the kill"...

You are only showing your complete and total ignorance toward discussing real problems in the Middle East...

You are not winning debating points by sidestepping the premises with volumes of unsibstansiated so-called facts...

Like I said, there isn't any source that you are preswented so far that is mush better tha the "aluminum tubes".... Yet, you will continue to put forward one dubius source after another, thinking that if you put enouf dubiuos sources togerher that you will ahve "won"...

Hmmmmmmm????

Back to my orignal question... What would bb do???

Get the US into another Iraq??? On dubious intellegence??? Then blame the intellegence???

You, my friend, need to think about what I am asking here before firing off a barage of so-called facts and intellegence at me... You are too qick with the trigger and a tad slow on the thinking things out...

I can see why you like Bush... He has many of the same characteristics... Shoot lots of bullets and hope that shere fire power will win... Problem is, it ain't winnin'... It's a failed foriegn policy that is based on fire power over truth and logic...

I'll ask you agin to delve into the world of ideas and give yer 50 calibrer machine gun a rest... You fire 'um to much, they get hot an' jam on ya...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:42 PM

"You are only showing your complete and total ignorance toward discussing real problems in the Middle East..."

Unsupported statement.


"You are not winning debating points by sidestepping the premises with volumes of unsibstansiated so-called facts..."

WHAT sidestepping? YOU have stated that Iran would NOT attack Israel BECAUSE of the nuclear weap[ons that Israel has- and I have shown that, even if you think Israel has MORE than it probably does that would NOT be a deterrent.

"Like I said, there isn't any source that you are preswented so far that is mush better tha the "aluminum tubes".... Yet, you will continue to put forward one dubius source after another, thinking that if you put enouf dubiuos sources togerher that you will ahve "won"..."

Bobert, let me speak REAL SLOW- IF ISRAEL DOES NOT HAVE THE WEAPONS, THERE IS NO DETERRENT. IF Israel DOES have them, THERE IS NO DETERRENT.

Hmmmmmmm????

"Back to my orignal question... What would bb do???

Get the US into another Iraq??? On dubious intellegence??? Then blame the intellegence???"

BB would have gone to the UN long ago, not waiting for the EU to solve the problem. IF Iran continued to violate the UN and treaty obligations, I would have made a military strick- AREN'T YOU GLAD I'M NOT IN CHARGE?

"You, my friend, need to think about what I am asking here before firing off a barage of so-called facts and intellegence at me... You are too qick with the trigger and a tad slow on the thinking things out..."

I have thought out what will happen when there is a nuclear war in the Middle East- YOU seem to think you can stop it by doing nothing.

"I can see why you like Bush... He has many of the same characteristics... Shoot lots of bullets and hope that shere fire power will win... Problem is, it ain't winnin'... It's a failed foriegn policy that is based on fire power over truth and logic..."

EXCEPT YOU HAVE PRESENTED NO TRUTH OR LOGIC.

"I'll ask you agin to delve into the world of ideas and give yer 50 calibrer machine gun a rest... You fire 'um to much, they get hot an' jam on ya..."


IDEA- Tell me what Israel WILL do when a nuclear device goes off in Israel? TELL ME THAT, then tell me how you can stop a major nuclear war.

A 20 kt device in the oilfields, and they will burn for the next century or so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:42 PM

US- MAYBE 6000 warheads, average probably 200kt or less....

Gee- 24% of Iran.....ANd NOTHING left at all of the US stockpile.


beardedbruce, it is not necessary to cover the entire geographical area of Iran to completely destroy it. We managed to almost completely destroy Afghanistan without using a single nuclear weapon.

Re: Hitler... I'm not suggesting we rely on the good will of the Iranians. I'm suggesting that we rely on the survival instincts of the Mullahs. We didn't have "mutually assured destruction" as a deterrent when Hitler was doing his dirty work. And if the US does nuke Iran, then the US will have become the next Hitler. And then you and I will have to live with the fact that we didn't prevent that from happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:44 PM

Carol C. ... there was nothing much left to destroy in Afghanistan ... the Russians took care of a lot of that destruction.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:49 PM

I'd say it was a joint, Russia/US effort. But still, not a single nuclear weapon was used to make that happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:59 PM

Yeah ... they are both to blame ... you don't really need nuclear weapons to destroy a country ... a few good years of plain good 'ol conventional warfare can do a good number in destruction.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 May 06 - 04:35 AM

Israel has enough nuclear firepower to completely destroy Iran.

It might not be able to turn the whole country into a plain of glass, but it were attacked with nuclear weapons, then Isreal would strike back against the Nuclear installations, and millitary bases of Iran.

It would only be defending itself, and being 'restrained' by not deliberatly targeting the cities, but sometimes they just happen to be around the 'real' target....


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:50 AM

Our only real worry in this is if the Iranians, the Israelis, and the Bush administration are either all...or variously...as paranoid and fanatical on this issue as Bearded Bruce. ;-D (and they may be)

If so, then someone will surely get blown to smithereens fairly soon.

Think about it, BB. Your darkest fears will be realized if your enemies think exactly the way you do, and are as unbending as you are...in which case...I'd say you almost would deserve each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:19 AM

Do you folks KNOW what even a small nuclear weapon would do?

First of all, you don't have to coat a country with radioactive glass to destroy it utterly. Most of the population is concentrated in urban areas, as is the "command and control" facilities -- and once the C&C is destroyed the country loses much of its military ability. Moreover, the military bases themselves would be targeted (those that weren't in the urban areas).

But that's not all of it.

Both the surviving civilian and military population will be in shock, profound shock. Food, medicine, medical care, sanitation, and shelter become extreme problems, because even if supplies are pre-positioned you still need to a) get to them, and b) have some way to distribute them.

The immediate blast area would be limited, but the resulting fires and damage for barometeric overpressure (and the subsequent return of air to the blast site) causes damage far beyond ground zero.

I highly recommend the book "Effects Of Nuclear Weapons" (1957, 1962 -- any edition), which was published by the US Government, assuming you can get ahold of a copy. Try your library; they might be able to get it on interlibrary loan for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:39 AM

Beardedbruce

You have completely blown away CarolC and bobert with your arguement. bobert wants to blame his constipation on Bush and comes across as quite foolish.

Both him and carolc are far left radical fascists intent on seeing the USA and Israel go down and fail. Their kind is just so pegged in this country by anyone who has any common sense or even a known clue of good vs. bad.

Israel's slogan after the holocaust is "Never again." Always keep that in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:48 AM

Actually, Martin, that is the slogan of the Jewish Defense League, not Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:54 AM

Wrong, Mick.

Virtually every synagogue in the country supports this motto.

Many over the years have had signs in front declaring this.

"Never again" is a motto of any Jew who is aware of the Holocaust, which is virtually all of us.

Your ignorance of this radiates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:04 AM

Not so, Martin. They may have adopted it, but it is and has been the motto of the JDL for a very long time. If you can point me to a source that supports your contention that it is the motto of Israel, I will be happy to stand corrected.

By the way, I support the aims of the motto.

And your arrogance radiates. One does not have to be Jewish to understand the trials faced by a people simply trying to survive in the face of historical and longstanding efforts to eradicate and enslave them. I think you are more talk than action on these issues anyway. Your only response to those who take issue is to cry anti semitism even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

But what's new? It seems to me that you aren't here so much to take up the sword for Israel as you are here to use your Jewishness as an excuse to have an attitude and incite reaction.

Nice talking to you.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:33 AM

Big Mick and Martin,

I'm afraid that you're both wrong about the origin and usage of the slogan, "never again."

The slogan was coined by Holocaust survivor and noted author and commentator Elie Wiesel as a refusal to allow the Holocaust to ever be repeated. With Wiesel's approval, the slogan has been adapted to refer to other genocides as well.

Big Mick,

Yes, the slogan was also used by the JDL, a never more than marginal fringe group within the Jewish community that is now all but defunct and forgotten. But the slogan was in wide use for many years before the JDL came on the scene.

Martin,

The slogan does have great resonance in Israel and in American synagogues and temples, but the reference is to the Holocaust.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:33 AM

You weren't talking, Mick, you were ranting.

I use my Jewishness here to do nothing but bring to the forefront ignorance that lives here. What proof do you have that it is the slogan of the JDL? Zero.

come to Skokie, IL Mick or the far north side of Chicago Mick, or any place else where there are synagogues IN SUPPORT OF ISRAEL which they all are who know what the slogan means to all of us, not just the JDL. And by the way, the JDL is an organization like the Anti-defamation league of B'nai Brith who represents Jews.

I am not all talk, Mick. I am a member of AIM, the largest pro Israel lobby in America.

Looks like you are stalking me on this thread and others, Mick. Clone privelege?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:38 AM

C. Ham

That was completely my point. The Never Again slogan is totally in response to the Holocaust. As one who personally knows octogenerean survivors of the Holocasut for a long time, this has always been clear to me.

It is what I tried to point out about Israel's response to Iran.

The JDL might by floundering, but the Anti-Defamation League is alive and well, and was just in the news here in Illinois regarding comments made by Louis Farakhan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:39 AM

Martin,

Here is a link to the JDL website. As you can see, the JDL does use the slogan, "never again."

However, as I pointed out, the slogan was appropriated, not coined, by the JDL and it refers to preventing further Holocausts and genocides now and forever.

JDL website


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:41 AM

As I said, my point about the slogan, whoever uses it or where it originated.

It is an appropriate response to Iran by Jews everywhere, Israel or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 06 May 06 - 02:19 PM

""Never again" is a motto of any Jew who is aware of the Holocaust, which is virtually all of us."

How could anyone dispute or argue this.


sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 06 - 03:06 PM

Would any of the "informed" answer some of my questions, please?

Did anyone ask the peoples or government of Palestine, be it during the 20's, 30's or 40's about the creation of the new state of Israel?

Did anyone ask the bordering nations about this state of new creations?

Did anyone justify the 67' war of Israel's expansion to Palestine's satisfaction, or for that matter to anyone's satisfaction?

Did anyone ask Israel weither they had or had not the right to manufacture nuclear weapons & to stockplie them?

Did anyone ask Iran weither they had or had not the right to manufacture nuclear weapons & to stockplie them?


Does anyone have the right to manufacture & stockpile nuclear weapons or that matter any type of WMD's & if some do why can't all?

Who's running the show?

I'm having a hard time figuring out the logic that grants a body of people a home in the mists of a home that has been a home to others(I'm not talking about ancients rights here either), & who has the rights to passing out these land grants? I'm also having a hard time with the logic that the first bully on the block with the biggest club gets to say what other bullies can carry a club & who can't? Is it that the first bully picks a few other bullies so the rest as a whole won't team up on #1, & if #1 picks #2-8 do all the exceptable bullies get to tell the others, who are not in the Clubs club or are not exceptable or those that arn't bullies that they can't have Clubs of their own that can carry their own kind of club?
These may sound like simple questions or like simple logic but then sometimes I think in simple terms of just what's right & what's wrong.

Lets keep this simple, please.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 06 - 08:21 PM

So, bb, you'd go to the UN... Well, that would seem like a good step except yer guy, Bush, has ttrivialized it with his ibnvasion of Iraq to the point where the UN has little or no powers anymore... Rememebr the story of the golden goose??? Well, yer boy (okay, probalby Cheney) shot it...

So what's yer plan B???

Yeah, I have a plan and it's one I've talked about in the past... I talked about it in the Bush's mad-dash-to-Iraq... Do you remember the plan I proposed... Bet about 99% of Bush's supporters wish he'd follwed the Bobert/________________ Plan 'bout now since his entire presidency is crumblin' around him like a house of cards....

And, please don't go go throwin' more links from right winged blogs at me... Just answer the questions straight up... I do... I don't go to any blogs... Like absolutely none!!! I don't need 'um... I read newspapers, watch TV news and, guess what??? If you do just that and have a critical ear you can figure out what's going on...

So far I've been just about 100% correct in the prdictions I made before the invasion of Iraq... You may call it lucky but guess wghat, part B... There were millions and millions of folks who saw it the same way... Tens upon millions of folks 'round the world in the streets saying, "Hey, Buster, just wait a friggin' minute here..."

But Buster ignored us, ignored his own intelleegnce people and made a decision that was based more on an eye toward the '04 elections!!!!

That is why George W. Bush is a war criminal... He put his parties re-election as his priority and the cost??? Another generation of kids who will grow old with their own Vietnam... Billions and billions of dollars wasted at a time the the US governemnt can ill afoord to be throwing $$ away...

But the worst part is the human sufferin'...

Upwards of 100,000 people will have died to keep the Republicans in power an extra few years!!!

That's what it all boils down to, BB, and the blood is on the hands of everyone who, in the face of the truth, continues to support this mad regime...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 06 - 08:59 PM

"Looks like you are stalking me on this thread and others"

Oh Shut up nutter!
We've watched you play that game before and IT'S BORING!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:02 PM

I think it's about time the Mudcat adopted (just for people like you!) your favourite slogan:


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:06 PM

NEVER AGAIN!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:22 PM

Don't get too bugged, Foolestroupe... Martin has allready marginalized his own self...

"Sealed dead in his armor..."

He is harmless... Nuthin' more than the sound of a dead tree fallin'...

Plus, he (or she???), can't even bring any proff to this forum that he/she is actually, ahhhhhhhh, Jewish??? Like what's that all about???


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:34 PM

The mark of a genuine self-deluding psychotic Semetic?


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