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BS: Again?

beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 06:43 PM
Bert 05 May 06 - 06:50 PM
Sorcha 05 May 06 - 07:33 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 May 06 - 08:15 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 08:22 PM
The Fooles Troupe 05 May 06 - 08:39 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 08:43 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 08:48 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 08:58 PM
CarolC 05 May 06 - 09:33 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 09:37 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:16 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:22 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:33 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 10:45 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:51 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:53 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 10:58 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:01 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 11:11 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:15 PM
CarolC 05 May 06 - 11:25 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:25 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:30 PM
Bobert 05 May 06 - 11:31 PM
beardedbruce 05 May 06 - 11:42 PM
CarolC 05 May 06 - 11:42 PM
number 6 05 May 06 - 11:44 PM
CarolC 05 May 06 - 11:49 PM
number 6 05 May 06 - 11:59 PM
Bunnahabhain 06 May 06 - 04:35 AM
Little Hawk 06 May 06 - 09:50 AM
Rapparee 06 May 06 - 10:19 AM
Once Famous 06 May 06 - 10:39 AM
Big Mick 06 May 06 - 10:48 AM
Once Famous 06 May 06 - 10:54 AM
Big Mick 06 May 06 - 11:04 AM
C. Ham 06 May 06 - 11:33 AM
Once Famous 06 May 06 - 11:33 AM
Once Famous 06 May 06 - 11:38 AM
C. Ham 06 May 06 - 11:39 AM
Once Famous 06 May 06 - 11:41 AM
number 6 06 May 06 - 02:19 PM
Barry Finn 06 May 06 - 03:06 PM
Bobert 06 May 06 - 08:21 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 May 06 - 08:59 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 May 06 - 09:02 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 May 06 - 09:06 PM
Bobert 06 May 06 - 09:22 PM
The Fooles Troupe 06 May 06 - 09:34 PM
Bobert 06 May 06 - 09:41 PM
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Bobert 06 May 06 - 10:20 PM
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Bobert 07 May 06 - 11:24 AM
beardedbruce 07 May 06 - 11:30 AM
Bobert 07 May 06 - 12:10 PM
CarolC 07 May 06 - 02:28 PM
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The Fooles Troupe 07 May 06 - 06:43 PM
Bill D 07 May 06 - 07:31 PM
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Little Hawk 07 May 06 - 11:02 PM
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number 6 07 May 06 - 11:47 PM
Big Mick 08 May 06 - 12:47 AM
Barry Finn 08 May 06 - 01:15 AM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 06:14 AM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 06:20 AM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 06:34 AM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 07:00 AM
Bobert 08 May 06 - 08:07 AM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 08:21 AM
Bobert 08 May 06 - 08:35 AM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 08:40 AM
Bobert 08 May 06 - 09:22 AM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 09:36 AM
The Fooles Troupe 08 May 06 - 09:47 AM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 09:57 AM
Bobert 08 May 06 - 10:14 AM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 10:19 AM
Bill D 08 May 06 - 12:49 PM
GUEST,Martin gibson 08 May 06 - 01:02 PM
CarolC 08 May 06 - 01:40 PM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 02:22 PM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 02:34 PM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 02:47 PM
GUEST,Martin gibson 08 May 06 - 03:47 PM
number 6 08 May 06 - 03:53 PM
CarolC 08 May 06 - 03:53 PM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 03:55 PM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 03:57 PM
CarolC 08 May 06 - 04:00 PM
CarolC 08 May 06 - 04:02 PM
GUEST,Martin gibson 08 May 06 - 04:02 PM
CarolC 08 May 06 - 04:03 PM
CarolC 08 May 06 - 04:08 PM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 04:10 PM
CarolC 08 May 06 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,Martin Gibson 08 May 06 - 04:33 PM
CarolC 08 May 06 - 04:39 PM
beardedbruce 08 May 06 - 07:12 PM
CarolC 08 May 06 - 07:41 PM
Bobert 08 May 06 - 08:17 PM
number 6 08 May 06 - 08:21 PM
Little Hawk 08 May 06 - 08:21 PM
Bobert 08 May 06 - 09:04 PM
Once Famous 08 May 06 - 09:08 PM
Bobert 08 May 06 - 09:48 PM
Once Famous 08 May 06 - 09:54 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 May 06 - 09:55 PM
Once Famous 08 May 06 - 09:57 PM
The Fooles Troupe 08 May 06 - 11:33 PM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:02 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:14 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:16 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:20 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 06:28 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 07:04 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 07:35 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 07:40 AM
Bobert 09 May 06 - 07:51 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 08:18 AM
Bobert 09 May 06 - 08:39 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 08:46 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 10:16 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 10:20 AM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 09 May 06 - 11:00 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 06 - 11:31 AM
number 6 09 May 06 - 12:35 PM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 12:50 PM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 01:23 PM
Bobert 09 May 06 - 01:40 PM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 01:48 PM
number 6 09 May 06 - 01:52 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 09 May 06 - 04:26 PM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 04:29 PM
number 6 09 May 06 - 04:44 PM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 05:39 PM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 05:41 PM
beardedbruce 09 May 06 - 05:46 PM
CarolC 09 May 06 - 06:22 PM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 07:37 AM
Bobert 10 May 06 - 08:36 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 08:41 AM
The Fooles Troupe 10 May 06 - 08:42 AM
redsnapper 10 May 06 - 09:08 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 09:16 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 09:23 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 09:35 AM
beardedbruce 10 May 06 - 09:55 AM
CarolC 10 May 06 - 05:44 PM
CarolC 10 May 06 - 05:49 PM
beardedbruce 11 May 06 - 07:03 AM
beardedbruce 11 May 06 - 08:19 AM
beardedbruce 11 May 06 - 08:51 AM
CarolC 11 May 06 - 10:08 AM
beardedbruce 11 May 06 - 11:26 AM
CarolC 11 May 06 - 11:36 AM
The Fooles Troupe 11 May 06 - 10:59 PM
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Subject: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:43 PM

"The establishment of Israel was a Jewish declaration to a world that had allowed the Holocaust to happen -- after Hitler had made his intentions perfectly clear -- that the Jews would henceforth resort to self-protection and self-reliance. And so they have, building a Jewish army, the first in 2,000 years, that prevailed in three great wars of survival (1948-49, 1967 and 1973).

But in a cruel historical irony, doing so required concentration -- putting all the eggs back in one basket, a tiny territory hard by the Mediterranean, eight miles wide at its waist. A tempting target for those who would finish Hitler's work.

His successors now reside in Tehran. The world has paid ample attention to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's declaration that Israel must be destroyed. Less attention has been paid to Iranian leaders' pronouncements on exactly how Israel would be "eliminated by one storm," as Ahmadinejad has promised.

Former president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, the presumed moderate of this gang, has explained that "the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam." The logic is impeccable, the intention clear: A nuclear attack would effectively destroy tiny Israel, while any retaliation launched by a dying Israel would have no major effect on an Islamic civilization of a billion people stretching from Mauritania to Indonesia.

As it races to acquire nuclear weapons, Iran makes clear that if there is any trouble, the Jews will be the first to suffer. "We have announced that wherever [in Iran] America does make any mischief, the first place we target will be Israel," said Gen. Mohammad Ebrahim Dehghani, a top Revolutionary Guards commander. Hitler was only slightly more direct when he announced seven months before invading Poland that, if there was another war, "the result will be . . . the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."

Last week Bernard Lewis, America's dean of Islamic studies, who just turned 90 and remembers the 20th century well, confessed that for the first time he feels it is 1938 again. He did not need to add that in 1938, in the face of the gathering storm -- a fanatical, aggressive, openly declared enemy of the West, and most determinedly of the Jews -- the world did nothing.

When Iran's mullahs acquire their coveted nukes in the next few years, the number of Jews in Israel will just be reaching 6 million. Never again?"

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/04/AR2006050401458.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bert
Date: 05 May 06 - 06:50 PM

Sigh! Yeah, we should have given them the Panhandle of Texas!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Sorcha
Date: 05 May 06 - 07:33 PM

Hell, give them ALL of Texas!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:15 PM

There once was a movement here that wanted to give the Jewish people a sizable chunk of Australia as a separate nation: once 'Israel' was started, the idea fizzled out. And anyway it was not really wanted, Jerusalem was not in Australia...

I'm not making this up you know...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:22 PM

Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce - PM
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:26 PM

Actually, the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne, as well as the San Remo conference of 1920, set up a Jewish Homeland over the entire region now known as Israel, the West Bank AND much of Jordan. Too bad the British did not keep THEIR part of the treaty.

"The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917, under which the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine"


and

How about this?

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html

"The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917, under which the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The conference's decisions were embodied in the stillborn Treaty of Sèvres (Section VII, Art 94-97). As Turkey rejected this treaty, the conference's decisions were only finally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:39 PM

"the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country."

Reread that entire carefully worded bit carefully, especially in the light of subsequent historical events.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:43 PM

Please read the referenced article and see what was resolved- the greater part of the "Jewish Homeland" was reserved for the ARAB population, and became the country of Jordan. LOOK at the map of the Mandate area.

"the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." Like in the Arab countries where the Jews were driven out...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:48 PM

Yo, bb....

Do you happen to know how many nuclear weapons that Isreal posesses that can easily find Iran on the map???

I mean, let's get real here...

This crap got outta control when yer guy, George W., took it upon himself to defy all odds that he could succeed at just one thing in his life by attacking Irag and destabilizing an allready volitile area of the world...

It was Bush with his cowboy-foriegn-policy that has brought about so much sabre rattlin'...

Not only that, in attacking Iraq based on a bunch of manipulated intellegence, he has lost the credibility and support he now needs to handle the Iranian situation...

What we need is some fresh thinging that doesn't involve a bunch of blustering and threats...

I don't know how much experience you have had with Arabs but I've had a lot and the US needs to understand the Arab culture in designing it's policies... Hy-way-or-the-highway make work with some kid making minimum wage in Texas but it ain't gonna work in the Arab world...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 08:58 PM

"Do you happen to know how many nuclear weapons that Isreal posesses that can easily find Iran on the map???"

" whereas it will only damage the world of Islam" Iran does not care about it's people- they used civilians to set off mines during the Iraq war, to protect their tanks. So, why would THEY care about what Israel would do to them? YOU STATE "needs to understand the Arab culture ", yet you do not do so yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 06 - 09:33 PM

The mullahs want to stay in power. How can they hope to do that if they don't have a country to rule over? You're ignoring their main reason for pretty much everything they do. That's the reason they won't attack Israel. If they attack Israel, they lose their country and the entire reason for their own existance. They won't do that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 09:37 PM

Ahhhh, bb, listen to me here fir a second...

Not all Arabs have the death wish and the promise of a room full of virgins... No, might of fact. them folks represent a small minority...

Hey, these folks have houses and lives and kids in college and they aren't out there hoping to get themselves blowed up 'er nuthin...

Isreal has enough deliverable nuclear power to wipe out 100% of Iran... Not 99%!!! See, that's where the deterant aspect of ownin' a bunch of nukes comes into power... If I'm Ahmadinejadi, I know this... Sure, since Bush is runnin' his cowboy "Bring -it-on" mouth, and I undersdtand that Bush has blown all possibilities of building any coilition, hey, I'm gonna please my constituants and woff-wwo it up...

This is Politics 101... Same here as there...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:16 PM

Sorry, Bobert, you do not have the correct facts.

Total number of Israeli bombs- on the order of 400 +_200 So, lets use 500 for overkill.

Average yield- est. about 140 kt each ( No fuion devices)

Area of 80% destruction for 140 KT bomb

"Another is how the devices are used. The radius of destruction of nuclear devices is actually quite limited; this is a natural outgrowth of working on the inverse square law. Even with one of the "big" 1 megaton weapons, its fury is largely spent by the time the blast wave has reached ten miles from center. The smaller devices have lesser radii although the workings of the cube power rule mean that those radii are not as small as the difference in explosive power suggests. "

Let us say about 6 miles, given a firestorm with NO attempt to put it out.


So, YOU claim that Iran has less than 500 x pi x 9 square miles of area? ( about 14,000 square miles- )


"With an area of 1,648,000 square kilometers, Iran ranks sixteenth in size among the countries of the world. Iran is about one-fifth the size of the continental United States, or slightly larger than the combined area of the contiguous states of California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, and Idaho. "


WRONG AGAIN


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:22 PM

sorry, we should use 36 instead of 9- 56,000 square miles A little over 145,000 sq km.

You want to tell me that 145,000 is BIGGER than 1,648,000?????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:33 PM

CarolC,

You state "The mullahs want to stay in power. How can they hope to do that if they don't have a country to rule over? You're ignoring their main reason for pretty much everything they do. That's the reason they won't attack Israel. If they attack Israel, they lose their country and the entire reason for their own existance. They won't do that. "


I disagree. YOU are calling the mullahs liars. THEY have stated that the reason is religious- thus your logic does not apply. Even if it requires the sacrifice of the entire Palestinian people and a large percentage of their own population, I think that they would not hesitate to try to destroy Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:45 PM

First of all, bb, you can't possibly know what Isreal has 'er you would have top ranked security clearance and by divulging this info would get you some serious jail time...

Secondlym who the heck cares if Isreal can blow up 87% of Iran or 99% of Iran???

The premise is that if you are the leader of Iran, the differences in the percentages don't mean jack...

So you can take yer screming "YOUR WRONG" and congitate on yer your breraching national security classified info.... That is if yer info is correct???

Hmmmmmm??? Think about it....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:51 PM

Sorry, Bobert- LESS than 9%, not 87 or 99%


And, in the public domain....   


New York, 13 May (AKI) - A former Pentagon official and whistle-blower, Daniel Ellsberg, said this week that Israel could have close to 400 nuclear weapons. "That's more than Britain, China, India and Pakistan, and probably more than France," said Ellsberg speaking at a news conference in New York on Thuirsday. Ellsberg, whose disclosure of secret Pentagon documents about the Vietnam war helped established anti-war sentiment in the United States in the early 1970s, was scheduled address a Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty conference, at the UN's New York headquarters..

While Israeli nuclear technician Mordechai Vanunu had revealed in 1986 that Israel had about 200 nuclear weapons, by the same rate of production observed by Vanunu at the Israeli Dimona plant, today Israel would have the capacity to have up to 400 nuclear weapons, Ellsberg said.

Vanunu has served 18 years in prison in Israel for releasing information about Israel's atomic programme to a British newspaper in 1986. He has been barred from leaving the country until April 2006 and went on trial last month for allegedly violating a condition of his 2004 release that banned contacts with foreigners.

Israel neither acknowledges nor denies having a nuclear weapons programme, following a policy of nuclear ambiguity.

At Thursday's newsconference, Ellsberg also said Vanunu should be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for revealing Israel's nuclear arsenal. The technician, who was kidnapped by Israeli secret agents in Italy and brought to trial in Israel, shoul also be allowed to travel the world to promote the abolition of nuclear weapons, Ellsberg said.

After recently spending five days with Vanunu in Israel, Ellsberg dismissed the Israeli government's claim that Vanunu still had secrets that could endanger national security as 'absurd'.

"It's clearly an attempt to prolong his sentence indefinitely, sending him back to prison for years," Ellsberg said.

"The message this sends to potential Vanunus in other states is very clear, and the question at this conference is whether the nations of the world should encourage or strongly protest that message," he said.

Speaking on behalf of the non-profit Nuclear Age Peace Foundation, which promotes the abolition of nuclear weapons, Ellsberg said Israel today was probably the third or fourth-largest nuclear state — behind the United States and Russia, and possibly France."


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:53 PM

"The premise is that if you are the leader of Iran, the differences in the percentages don't mean jack..."


INVALID PREMISE-

"understand the Arab culture" You are acting as if they will react as YOU would when presented with a large death toll- THEY HAVE NOT IN THE PAST, so why would they in the future?????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 10:58 PM

The first public revelation of Israel's nuclear capability (as opposed to development programme) came in the London-based Sunday Times on October 5, 1986, which printed information provided by Mordechai Vanunu, formerly employed at the Negev Nuclear Research Center, a facility located in the Negev desert south of Dimona. For publication of state secrets, he was sentenced to 18 years in prison for treason and espionage. Although there had been much speculation prior to Vanunu's revelations that the Dimona site was creating nuclear weapons, Vanunu's information indicated that Israel had also built thermonuclear weapons.[5]

In 1998, former Prime Minister Shimon Peres said that Israel "built a nuclear option, not in order to have a Hiroshima but an Oslo." [6]. ("Hiroshima" refers to the atomic bombing of Hiroshima, while "Oslo" refers to the Oslo Peace Accords). The "nuclear option" may refer to a nuclear weapon or to the nuclear reactor in Dimona, which Israel claims is used for scientific research. However, no scientific report from the Dimona nuclear facility has ever appeared in a peer reviewed scientific journal. Peres, in his capacity as the Director General of the Ministry of Defense in the early 1950s, was responsible for building Israel's nuclear capability.[7]

According to the Nuclear Threat Initiative, based on Vanunu's information, Israel has approximately 100-200 nuclear explosive devices and a Jericho missile delivery system. A United States Defense Intelligence Agency report (leaked and published in the book "Rumsfeld's War" by journalist Richard Scarborough in 2004) puts the number of weapons at 82. U.S. intelligence sources in the late 1990s estimated 75-130 [8]. The difference might lie in the amount of material Israel has on store versus assembled weapons.

Israel has operated three modern German-built Dolphin class submarines [9] since 1999. Various reports indicate that these submarines are equipped with American-made Harpoon missiles modified to carry small nuclear warheads [10] and/or the larger Israeli-made 'Popeye Turbo' cruise missiles, originally developed for air-to-ground strike capability [11]. On October 12, 2003, The Observer reported that the United States had equipped Israeli submarines with nuclear tipped Harpoon missiles. [12]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_weapons_of_mass_destruction

So, I will uise the LOWER numbers from this last site, and Iran would suffer less than 3% destruction.... WHICH YOU CLAIM WOULD PREVENT THEM FROM ATTACKING ISRAEL, and acheiving their goals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:01 PM

So you can take yer screming " national security classified info" and look at what is PUBLICLY available.


Hmmmmmm??? Think about it....

Maybe you should look at facts instead of ranting about Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:11 PM

Keep arguing, bb... Yer arguing against yerself... You have no idea of the premise I have presented and you have no idea about dealing with Arabs...

If you do, then please eleaborate...

And, BTW, volume (as in numbers of posts) doesn't win debates... Ideas do and I haven't heard the first one from you other than right wing spin about how Iran is the big, bad wolf...

And BTW. Part 2, just because you may *******think******* that Israels nuclear strenght is "public domain" don't make it so.... There was a time when Iraq was thought to have all these ansty weapons, as well...

You seem perfectly willing to accept as fact anything that might support yer arguments yet unwilling to accept the fact that facts ain't always, ahhhhhh, facts...

This seem to be a pettern with you... No offense intended... Jus' tryin' to break yer cycle of acceptin' inforamtion carte blanche that supporst yer opinions as facts...

But back to ideas fir now.... What, if you were the presdient would you do about Iran (other than spin the Bush company fight song)???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:15 PM

"Thus 1 bomb with a yield of 1 megaton would destroy 80 square miles. While 8 bombs, each with a yield of 125 kilotons, would destroy 160 square miles."

http://www.atomicarchive.com/Effects/effects1.shtml

so, 100 bombs at 125kt would destroy 2000 sq miles- or 5180 sq km- a grand total of 0.3% of Iran....


Sounds like your 100% went away real quick.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:25 PM

I disagree. YOU are calling the mullahs liars. THEY have stated that the reason is religious- thus your logic does not apply. Even if it requires the sacrifice of the entire Palestinian people and a large percentage of their own population, I think that they would not hesitate to try to destroy Israel.

beardedbruce, the size of Israel's nuclear stockpile is irrelevant. You need to include the US nuclear arsenal when you do your calculations. The US has enough nuclear fire power to completely destroy Iran, and the Mullahs along with it. The Mullahs know this, even if you do not. They will not nuke Israel.

My guess is that Iran is using the threat of bombing Israel as a deterrant against military agression from the US. The answer to that is not to pre-emptively destroy Iran. That would be far more likely to result in the destruction of Israel than the use of a "mutually assured destruction" deterrent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:25 PM

"Keep arguing, bb... Yer arguing against yerself... "


No, I am arguing against statements made without refence to the facts.

"You have no idea of the premise I have presented and you have no idea about dealing with Arabs..."

Than you have failed entirely to present a valid premise, since I have addressed what YOU have stated.


"If you do, then please eleaborate..."

The statement you made has been demonstarted to be false, under the public information available, and a worst case extreme picked out of the air.

"And, BTW, volume (as in numbers of posts) doesn't win debates... Ideas do and I haven't heard the first one from you other than right wing spin about how Iran is the big, bad wolf..."

I have heard no solution from you- just rants about Bush. I DO NOT
HAVE a solution- but I see that YOU depend on the goodness of the Iranian Government to stop a nuclear war.


"And BTW. Part 2, just because you may *******think******* that Israels nuclear strenght is "public domain" don't make it so.... There was a time when Iraq was thought to have all these ansty weapons, as well..."

So, You imply Israel DOES NOT have the nuclear weapons YOU are depending on to keep Iran from attacking????

"You seem perfectly willing to accept as fact anything that might support yer arguments yet unwilling to accept the fact that facts ain't always, ahhhhhh, facts..."

You have yet to present any facts, whatsoever. When you do, I will treat them as I would any other fact.

"This seem to be a pettern with you... No offense intended... Jus' tryin' to break yer cycle of acceptin' inforamtion carte blanche that supporst yer opinions as facts..."

I try to find the MOST LIKELY set of facts, NOT the ones that, by being extreme, would support one viewpoint or the other.

"But back to ideas fir now.... What, if you were the presdient would you do about Iran (other than spin the Bush company fight song)???"

I would have the UN embargo ALL imports in and out of Iran, and wait for the mushroom clouds.

WHat the hell would you do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:30 PM

CarolC,


US- MAYBE 6000 warheads, average probably 200kt or less....

Gee- 24% of Iran.....ANd NOTHING left at all of the US stockpile.



Right- keep dreaming


"They will not nuke Israel"

And Hitler would never kill 6 million Jews, either- Do you really have so little regard for history?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:31 PM

Put yer ears on, son, and step back away from what you think is "the kill"...

You are only showing your complete and total ignorance toward discussing real problems in the Middle East...

You are not winning debating points by sidestepping the premises with volumes of unsibstansiated so-called facts...

Like I said, there isn't any source that you are preswented so far that is mush better tha the "aluminum tubes".... Yet, you will continue to put forward one dubius source after another, thinking that if you put enouf dubiuos sources togerher that you will ahve "won"...

Hmmmmmmm????

Back to my orignal question... What would bb do???

Get the US into another Iraq??? On dubious intellegence??? Then blame the intellegence???

You, my friend, need to think about what I am asking here before firing off a barage of so-called facts and intellegence at me... You are too qick with the trigger and a tad slow on the thinking things out...

I can see why you like Bush... He has many of the same characteristics... Shoot lots of bullets and hope that shere fire power will win... Problem is, it ain't winnin'... It's a failed foriegn policy that is based on fire power over truth and logic...

I'll ask you agin to delve into the world of ideas and give yer 50 calibrer machine gun a rest... You fire 'um to much, they get hot an' jam on ya...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:42 PM

"You are only showing your complete and total ignorance toward discussing real problems in the Middle East..."

Unsupported statement.


"You are not winning debating points by sidestepping the premises with volumes of unsibstansiated so-called facts..."

WHAT sidestepping? YOU have stated that Iran would NOT attack Israel BECAUSE of the nuclear weap[ons that Israel has- and I have shown that, even if you think Israel has MORE than it probably does that would NOT be a deterrent.

"Like I said, there isn't any source that you are preswented so far that is mush better tha the "aluminum tubes".... Yet, you will continue to put forward one dubius source after another, thinking that if you put enouf dubiuos sources togerher that you will ahve "won"..."

Bobert, let me speak REAL SLOW- IF ISRAEL DOES NOT HAVE THE WEAPONS, THERE IS NO DETERRENT. IF Israel DOES have them, THERE IS NO DETERRENT.

Hmmmmmmm????

"Back to my orignal question... What would bb do???

Get the US into another Iraq??? On dubious intellegence??? Then blame the intellegence???"

BB would have gone to the UN long ago, not waiting for the EU to solve the problem. IF Iran continued to violate the UN and treaty obligations, I would have made a military strick- AREN'T YOU GLAD I'M NOT IN CHARGE?

"You, my friend, need to think about what I am asking here before firing off a barage of so-called facts and intellegence at me... You are too qick with the trigger and a tad slow on the thinking things out..."

I have thought out what will happen when there is a nuclear war in the Middle East- YOU seem to think you can stop it by doing nothing.

"I can see why you like Bush... He has many of the same characteristics... Shoot lots of bullets and hope that shere fire power will win... Problem is, it ain't winnin'... It's a failed foriegn policy that is based on fire power over truth and logic..."

EXCEPT YOU HAVE PRESENTED NO TRUTH OR LOGIC.

"I'll ask you agin to delve into the world of ideas and give yer 50 calibrer machine gun a rest... You fire 'um to much, they get hot an' jam on ya..."


IDEA- Tell me what Israel WILL do when a nuclear device goes off in Israel? TELL ME THAT, then tell me how you can stop a major nuclear war.

A 20 kt device in the oilfields, and they will burn for the next century or so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:42 PM

US- MAYBE 6000 warheads, average probably 200kt or less....

Gee- 24% of Iran.....ANd NOTHING left at all of the US stockpile.


beardedbruce, it is not necessary to cover the entire geographical area of Iran to completely destroy it. We managed to almost completely destroy Afghanistan without using a single nuclear weapon.

Re: Hitler... I'm not suggesting we rely on the good will of the Iranians. I'm suggesting that we rely on the survival instincts of the Mullahs. We didn't have "mutually assured destruction" as a deterrent when Hitler was doing his dirty work. And if the US does nuke Iran, then the US will have become the next Hitler. And then you and I will have to live with the fact that we didn't prevent that from happening.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:44 PM

Carol C. ... there was nothing much left to destroy in Afghanistan ... the Russians took care of a lot of that destruction.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:49 PM

I'd say it was a joint, Russia/US effort. But still, not a single nuclear weapon was used to make that happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 05 May 06 - 11:59 PM

Yeah ... they are both to blame ... you don't really need nuclear weapons to destroy a country ... a few good years of plain good 'ol conventional warfare can do a good number in destruction.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 06 May 06 - 04:35 AM

Israel has enough nuclear firepower to completely destroy Iran.

It might not be able to turn the whole country into a plain of glass, but it were attacked with nuclear weapons, then Isreal would strike back against the Nuclear installations, and millitary bases of Iran.

It would only be defending itself, and being 'restrained' by not deliberatly targeting the cities, but sometimes they just happen to be around the 'real' target....


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:50 AM

Our only real worry in this is if the Iranians, the Israelis, and the Bush administration are either all...or variously...as paranoid and fanatical on this issue as Bearded Bruce. ;-D (and they may be)

If so, then someone will surely get blown to smithereens fairly soon.

Think about it, BB. Your darkest fears will be realized if your enemies think exactly the way you do, and are as unbending as you are...in which case...I'd say you almost would deserve each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Rapparee
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:19 AM

Do you folks KNOW what even a small nuclear weapon would do?

First of all, you don't have to coat a country with radioactive glass to destroy it utterly. Most of the population is concentrated in urban areas, as is the "command and control" facilities -- and once the C&C is destroyed the country loses much of its military ability. Moreover, the military bases themselves would be targeted (those that weren't in the urban areas).

But that's not all of it.

Both the surviving civilian and military population will be in shock, profound shock. Food, medicine, medical care, sanitation, and shelter become extreme problems, because even if supplies are pre-positioned you still need to a) get to them, and b) have some way to distribute them.

The immediate blast area would be limited, but the resulting fires and damage for barometeric overpressure (and the subsequent return of air to the blast site) causes damage far beyond ground zero.

I highly recommend the book "Effects Of Nuclear Weapons" (1957, 1962 -- any edition), which was published by the US Government, assuming you can get ahold of a copy. Try your library; they might be able to get it on interlibrary loan for you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:39 AM

Beardedbruce

You have completely blown away CarolC and bobert with your arguement. bobert wants to blame his constipation on Bush and comes across as quite foolish.

Both him and carolc are far left radical fascists intent on seeing the USA and Israel go down and fail. Their kind is just so pegged in this country by anyone who has any common sense or even a known clue of good vs. bad.

Israel's slogan after the holocaust is "Never again." Always keep that in mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:48 AM

Actually, Martin, that is the slogan of the Jewish Defense League, not Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:54 AM

Wrong, Mick.

Virtually every synagogue in the country supports this motto.

Many over the years have had signs in front declaring this.

"Never again" is a motto of any Jew who is aware of the Holocaust, which is virtually all of us.

Your ignorance of this radiates.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:04 AM

Not so, Martin. They may have adopted it, but it is and has been the motto of the JDL for a very long time. If you can point me to a source that supports your contention that it is the motto of Israel, I will be happy to stand corrected.

By the way, I support the aims of the motto.

And your arrogance radiates. One does not have to be Jewish to understand the trials faced by a people simply trying to survive in the face of historical and longstanding efforts to eradicate and enslave them. I think you are more talk than action on these issues anyway. Your only response to those who take issue is to cry anti semitism even in the face of evidence to the contrary.

But what's new? It seems to me that you aren't here so much to take up the sword for Israel as you are here to use your Jewishness as an excuse to have an attitude and incite reaction.

Nice talking to you.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:33 AM

Big Mick and Martin,

I'm afraid that you're both wrong about the origin and usage of the slogan, "never again."

The slogan was coined by Holocaust survivor and noted author and commentator Elie Wiesel as a refusal to allow the Holocaust to ever be repeated. With Wiesel's approval, the slogan has been adapted to refer to other genocides as well.

Big Mick,

Yes, the slogan was also used by the JDL, a never more than marginal fringe group within the Jewish community that is now all but defunct and forgotten. But the slogan was in wide use for many years before the JDL came on the scene.

Martin,

The slogan does have great resonance in Israel and in American synagogues and temples, but the reference is to the Holocaust.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:33 AM

You weren't talking, Mick, you were ranting.

I use my Jewishness here to do nothing but bring to the forefront ignorance that lives here. What proof do you have that it is the slogan of the JDL? Zero.

come to Skokie, IL Mick or the far north side of Chicago Mick, or any place else where there are synagogues IN SUPPORT OF ISRAEL which they all are who know what the slogan means to all of us, not just the JDL. And by the way, the JDL is an organization like the Anti-defamation league of B'nai Brith who represents Jews.

I am not all talk, Mick. I am a member of AIM, the largest pro Israel lobby in America.

Looks like you are stalking me on this thread and others, Mick. Clone privelege?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:38 AM

C. Ham

That was completely my point. The Never Again slogan is totally in response to the Holocaust. As one who personally knows octogenerean survivors of the Holocasut for a long time, this has always been clear to me.

It is what I tried to point out about Israel's response to Iran.

The JDL might by floundering, but the Anti-Defamation League is alive and well, and was just in the news here in Illinois regarding comments made by Louis Farakhan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: C. Ham
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:39 AM

Martin,

Here is a link to the JDL website. As you can see, the JDL does use the slogan, "never again."

However, as I pointed out, the slogan was appropriated, not coined, by the JDL and it refers to preventing further Holocausts and genocides now and forever.

JDL website


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 06 May 06 - 11:41 AM

As I said, my point about the slogan, whoever uses it or where it originated.

It is an appropriate response to Iran by Jews everywhere, Israel or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 06 May 06 - 02:19 PM

""Never again" is a motto of any Jew who is aware of the Holocaust, which is virtually all of us."

How could anyone dispute or argue this.


sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 06 May 06 - 03:06 PM

Would any of the "informed" answer some of my questions, please?

Did anyone ask the peoples or government of Palestine, be it during the 20's, 30's or 40's about the creation of the new state of Israel?

Did anyone ask the bordering nations about this state of new creations?

Did anyone justify the 67' war of Israel's expansion to Palestine's satisfaction, or for that matter to anyone's satisfaction?

Did anyone ask Israel weither they had or had not the right to manufacture nuclear weapons & to stockplie them?

Did anyone ask Iran weither they had or had not the right to manufacture nuclear weapons & to stockplie them?


Does anyone have the right to manufacture & stockpile nuclear weapons or that matter any type of WMD's & if some do why can't all?

Who's running the show?

I'm having a hard time figuring out the logic that grants a body of people a home in the mists of a home that has been a home to others(I'm not talking about ancients rights here either), & who has the rights to passing out these land grants? I'm also having a hard time with the logic that the first bully on the block with the biggest club gets to say what other bullies can carry a club & who can't? Is it that the first bully picks a few other bullies so the rest as a whole won't team up on #1, & if #1 picks #2-8 do all the exceptable bullies get to tell the others, who are not in the Clubs club or are not exceptable or those that arn't bullies that they can't have Clubs of their own that can carry their own kind of club?
These may sound like simple questions or like simple logic but then sometimes I think in simple terms of just what's right & what's wrong.

Lets keep this simple, please.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 06 - 08:21 PM

So, bb, you'd go to the UN... Well, that would seem like a good step except yer guy, Bush, has ttrivialized it with his ibnvasion of Iraq to the point where the UN has little or no powers anymore... Rememebr the story of the golden goose??? Well, yer boy (okay, probalby Cheney) shot it...

So what's yer plan B???

Yeah, I have a plan and it's one I've talked about in the past... I talked about it in the Bush's mad-dash-to-Iraq... Do you remember the plan I proposed... Bet about 99% of Bush's supporters wish he'd follwed the Bobert/________________ Plan 'bout now since his entire presidency is crumblin' around him like a house of cards....

And, please don't go go throwin' more links from right winged blogs at me... Just answer the questions straight up... I do... I don't go to any blogs... Like absolutely none!!! I don't need 'um... I read newspapers, watch TV news and, guess what??? If you do just that and have a critical ear you can figure out what's going on...

So far I've been just about 100% correct in the prdictions I made before the invasion of Iraq... You may call it lucky but guess wghat, part B... There were millions and millions of folks who saw it the same way... Tens upon millions of folks 'round the world in the streets saying, "Hey, Buster, just wait a friggin' minute here..."

But Buster ignored us, ignored his own intelleegnce people and made a decision that was based more on an eye toward the '04 elections!!!!

That is why George W. Bush is a war criminal... He put his parties re-election as his priority and the cost??? Another generation of kids who will grow old with their own Vietnam... Billions and billions of dollars wasted at a time the the US governemnt can ill afoord to be throwing $$ away...

But the worst part is the human sufferin'...

Upwards of 100,000 people will have died to keep the Republicans in power an extra few years!!!

That's what it all boils down to, BB, and the blood is on the hands of everyone who, in the face of the truth, continues to support this mad regime...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 06 - 08:59 PM

"Looks like you are stalking me on this thread and others"

Oh Shut up nutter!
We've watched you play that game before and IT'S BORING!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:02 PM

I think it's about time the Mudcat adopted (just for people like you!) your favourite slogan:


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:06 PM

NEVER AGAIN!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:22 PM

Don't get too bugged, Foolestroupe... Martin has allready marginalized his own self...

"Sealed dead in his armor..."

He is harmless... Nuthin' more than the sound of a dead tree fallin'...

Plus, he (or she???), can't even bring any proff to this forum that he/she is actually, ahhhhhhhh, Jewish??? Like what's that all about???


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:34 PM

The mark of a genuine self-deluding psychotic Semetic?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:41 PM

Now you got it....

Doesn't that make Marty more tolerable???


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 06 May 06 - 09:48 PM

Oops! I meant Anti-Semetic.

Just goes to show that I should try to use my brain for making clever comments when my body is wracked with pain - but then what's Marty's excuse?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:20 PM

Well, F-troupe... He ain't got one... Well, okay, he's probably got a hundred that he thinks are excuses but...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Big Mick
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:53 PM

First off, Martin, I wasn't ranting, and I can't see how you say I was. I simply am part of the conversation.

Second off, I have been in Skokie, and on the north side of Chicago. I currently work a lot in Lakehurst, NJ where there are many Hasadim. Not sure what that has to do with the discussion.

Finally, how am I stalking you by simply responding to what you post? How is that "clone privilege"? It is a public forum, you post to get a response in a discussion, I do that ........ and you call it stalking? I think you are screwed up on this, Martin.

C. Ham, thanks for the clarification on the origins of the terms. Have you got any cites for the origination of the term?

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: dianavan
Date: 07 May 06 - 01:59 AM

I visited Dachau in 1969 and saw this:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/MemorialSite/index.html

I'm not sure but I think Elie Wiesel made the famous speech in 1999.

I'm also not sure when "NEVER AGAIN" was cast in stone but I think it was sometime between 1956 and 1965.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:00 AM

Barry,

"Did anyone ask the peoples or government of Palestine, be it during the 20's, 30's or 40's about the creation of the new state of Israel?

Did anyone ask the bordering nations about this state of new creations?"

AS I HAVE POINTED OUT, The boundaries of Iraq, Syria, Turkey, and the MANDATED JEWISH HOMELAND were specified at the San Remos conference, and treaty negotiations with the successor to the Ottaman Empire ( Turkey) by the Allied Powers. This was confirmed by the League of Nations, giving the British a MANDATE TERROTORY to become a Jewish Homeland. Shall we use THOSE borders??????

"Did anyone justify the 67' war of Israel's expansion to Palestine's satisfaction, or for that matter to anyone's satisfaction?"

Dis anyone ever justify the attack by France and Britain upon Germany, just because the Germans invaded Poland?


"Did anyone ask Israel weither they had or had not the right to manufacture nuclear weapons & to stockplie them?

Did anyone ask Iran weither they had or had not the right to manufacture nuclear weapons & to stockplie them?"

ISRAEL dis NOT sign the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty- IRAN DID.




"Does anyone have the right to manufacture & stockpile nuclear weapons or that matter any type of WMD's & if some do why can't all?"

ANY soveriegn nation who has NOT signed treaty obligations prohibiting that devolopment CAN, which is why the benefits given to nation which SIGN.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:02 AM

Bobert,

"Yeah, I have a plan and it's one I've talked about in the past... I talked about it in the Bush's mad-dash-to-Iraq... Do you remember the plan I proposed... "



TELL me again about your plan to keep Iran from getting nuclear weapons and using them on Israel, AS THEY HAVE STATED THEY WILL.


Oh yeh, you were going to wave your hands and make the bad things all disappear...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:09 AM

" highly recommend the book "Effects Of Nuclear Weapons" (1957, 1962 -- any edition), which was published by the US Government, assuming you can get ahold of a copy. Try your library; they might be able to get it on interlibrary loan for you. "


I own the 1962 printing, have read it, and understand it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:14 AM

Bobert,

You state "And, please don't go go throwin' more links from right winged blogs at me"

Can you please give an example in this thread of where I have done this? ANywhere?











I thought not...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:21 AM

rAPIARE,

"Do you folks KNOW what even a small nuclear weapon would do?"

YES, I think I do. I have read most of the literature on Hiroshima, Nagasaki, the Tokyo fir bombings, and Dresden. I would not feel so strongly about this if I did not think that the foolish ignoring of the STATED desire to detroy Israel would not, inevitably, lead to a general exchange of nuclear weapons worldwide. I DO NOT SEE HOW IT CAN BE STOPPED once it begins. Yet I am told to trust that Iran is lying about their intent, JUST like Hilter was in the 1930's. ( sarcasm)


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:24 AM

The plan is broader than just a single issue but a broader one that involves the entire Middle East... It was put forward by the Saudis and is known purdy much as just that, "The Saudi Plan"... Another similar version was put forth here in the US known as the "Mitchell Plan"...

These ideas got drowned out by the insesent noise coming from the Bush war drum in the mad-dash-to-Iraq... Oh sure, offically the Bush folks **said** they could support such a framework but behind the scenes we now know they had allready set in stone that they were going to attack Iraq so theswe proposals weren't given enough support to have half a chance of coming into being...

20/20 hindsight and now thias morning poll numbers having dropped another 3 points down to 33% you can take it to the bank that the neocons wished they'ed let it go forward...

Now I'm sure that you, bb, will now attack the specifics of the Saudi Plan because that's what you do... But, hey, it was a framework for avoiding the mess that we and the folks in the Middle Esat find ourselves...

It was, and could one day still be the first step toward giving "peace a chance"... At some point in time mankind will figure out that in a globalized economy that war is a luxary that mankind can no longer afford... Those discussions could have taken place during Bush's presidency but they just didn't play into the politics of the '04 election and the NASCAR dads...

Too bad...

Bush could have shown real courage but he didn't... He jusy went along with the Rove/Irag strategy in '04...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:30 AM

"At some point in time mankind will figure out that in a globalized economy that war is a luxary that mankind can no longer afford... "

I agree with you on this point.


As for the Roadplan, tell me again how that would keep IRAN from its STATED goal of the destruction of Israel? Or Hamas from ITS stated goal of the destruction of Israel?


"Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware." From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed. Those conferences are no more than a means to appoint the nonbelievers as arbitrators in the lands of Islam. Since when did the Unbelievers do justice to the Believers? "And the Jews will not be pleased with thee, nor will the Christians, till thou follow their creed. Say: Lo! the guidance of Allah [himself] is the Guidance. And if you should follow their desires after the knowledge which has come unto thee, then you would have from Allah no protecting friend nor helper." Sura 2 (the Cow), verse 120 There is no solution to the Palestinian problem except by Jihad. The initiatives, proposals and International Conferences are but a waste of time, an exercise in futility. The Palestinian people are too noble to have their future, their right and their destiny submitted to a vain game. As the hadith has it: "The people of Syria are Allah's whip on this land; He takes revenge by their intermediary from whoever he wished among his worshipers. The Hypocrites among them are forbidden from vanquishing the true believers, and they will die in anxiety and sorrow." (Told by Tabarani, who is traceable in ascending order of traditionaries to Muhammad, and by Ahmed whose chain of transmission is incomplete. But it is bound to be a true hadith, for both story tellers are reliable. Allah knows best.)
"


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 May 06 - 12:10 PM

6 minutes of thought, bb???

You don't want peace... You just want to argue and react...

Look at how long it took you to read, craft yer debating point and do a cut 'n paste...

6 friggin' minutes...

It's folks like you who will continue to chooze war over peace...

Peace take more than 6 minutes... It take carefull thought...

But, I expected nuthin' else of you for I knew that you would "react" becasue that is yer nature so that's why I'm posting this close behind yer post... I had this post thought out in advance...

But yer question is a red herring... No one can prove that going back in history would 100% change a situation today... Heck, you can probably find some laung cancer patients who smokes three packs a day who might have gotten lung cancer even if they had never smoked.. Can you prove that??? Well, logic says you can't... But what we do know is that there is a corrilation between smoking and lung cancer...

Same with Iran of today... Heck, maybe the US would have endorsed the Saudi Plan (which they never did) and not invaded Iraq and the Saudi Plan had been accepted and Iran, by virtue of being a supporter of the Plan (which promised Isreal security, BTW) might, ahhh, have decided to buck the rest of the Arab world and not gone along with the program??? Very unlikely... Just as unlikely that the guy with the 3 pack a day habit wouldn't have gotten ling cancer if he had never smoked???

Yer turn...

And how 'bout using' yer own words for a plesant change... And how about allowing some time for thought before respondibng so it doesn't appear that you are merely "reacting"???

Por favor???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 07 May 06 - 02:28 PM

The establishment of Israel was a Jewish declaration to a world that had allowed the Holocaust to happen

I have to address this accusation. It is wrong in so many ways.

Many, many people died fighting Hitler, and trying to stop the Holocaust as it was happening. My uncle was one of those people. To try to suggest, as you are doing here, and as many other people do when they say things like this, that everyone in the world sat on their hands and did nothing while Hitler was killing Jews, is profoundly wrong, and profoundly offensive to the memories of the people who died fighting Hitler.

You should never, never say that the world "allowed" the holocaust to happen. Yes, there were many people in the world who did nothing. But there were many who made the ultimate sacrifice in order to try to stop it.

You should never forget this fact. And you should never take for granted the sacrifices these people made.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 May 06 - 06:07 PM

... unless of course you have your own drum to beat, in which case your response is always 'sod off'.

(not addressing you CarolC)


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 07 May 06 - 06:26 PM

BB
Still no one asked the people that inhabited the area now called Israel. When presented with this mandate they tried to declare themselves as an independant nation & were refuse by the allied powers, as was Syria & Jordan, which were later granted that status. The people, mostly Moslems, tried to then declare themselves Southern Syrians, also denied, see France's forced rule in Syria. They settled with the exceptence of Palestine & very much distrusted the British knowing they were to have a Jewish homeland thrushed upon them without recourse. The new Jewish Homeland was supposed to hold true to the mandates concerning the original inhabitants instead they put them under foot & did as they pleased, they were not meant to become a state within a state nor form a nation outside of a nation. The intention was that there would be a Jewish Homeland within the borders of what was a Moslem Homeland & nation.

Barry

"Did anyone justify the 67' war of Israel's expansion to Palestine's satisfaction, or for that matter to anyone's satisfaction?"

"Dis anyone ever justify the attack by France and Britain upon Germany, just because the Germans invaded Poland?"

That's no answer! But thank you for giving it your best & for your attempt at answering my questions.

ISRAEL dis NOT sign the Nuclear Non-proliferation Treaty- IRAN DID.
ANY soveriegn nation who has NOT signed treaty obligations prohibiting that devolopment CAN, which is why the benefits given to nation which SIGN.

Israel did not sign the Treaty but it is supported by every nation that did, & I remember there wasn't much of a fuss about it either when they announced it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 07 May 06 - 06:43 PM

And it was rumoured that the US ship carrying the uranium was held up by 'pirates' who had a very convincing fake of an Israeli submarine with the Israeli ID & numbers roughly painted over... such a 'factoid' has been used in at least one big blockbuster US movie about 'Terrorists' who set off a nuclear explosion on US soil - the testing of the fallout identifying that batch as the culprit...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bill D
Date: 07 May 06 - 07:31 PM

I cannot see how Israel could have expected NOT to be resented in the area after 1947, for that is where Islam had historical roots.....and I cannot see how the Muslim countries could have expected the Jews to NOT attempt to establish a state or power base in the region where they had historical roots.

All this debate over who 'might' do what to whom is just posturing and using minutiae to say "I want it my way, and I'll whup anyone who tries to interfere!"

It's not much different, except in details, from Green vs. Orange Ireland.... or Ethnic Serbs vs Ethnic Bosnians ....or Cattlemen vs. Sheepmen ...or Crips vs. Bloods!

It's "King of the Hill" with big weapons, and the last time I heard an attempt at real conciliation was Sadat & Begin....and Sadat paid dearly for trying.

Again? NO....still.......and probably forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 May 06 - 10:22 PM

Typical anti-Jewish anti-Israel hate by some of Mudcat's biggest purveyors such as Foolestroupe, Barry Finn, and the usual suspects. bobert as usual, has smoked too much weed today to be coherent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 07 May 06 - 10:54 PM

You can't negotiate with terrorists who want you exterminated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 May 06 - 10:57 PM

Grow up, Martin...

You say you want Isreal to be secure on one hand then you go about bacshing folks who support policies that would do just that???

This is why I suspect you are not, in real life, Jewish...

"Er maybe you'd just lie the US to nuke the entire Middle Eatd with the exception of Isreal... If so, just say that's what you want... Hey, I can accept a position but you ain't got one... Unless railing against CarolC, me and others for, ahhhhhh, heck if I know???

Like I said, grow the heck up, feller... Life is passin' you by with yer games...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:02 PM

You can't negotiate with a superpower which demands "regime change" of you either.

You can't negotiate with anyone who is willing to cut your throat in order to satisfy his own need for domination...unless you can prevent him from cutting your throat by the threat of using equivalent force. The USA and Israel are powerful enough to apply such prevention to their opponents in the Middle East. The people they are fighting against are not.

And that is why the people they are fighting against turn to clandestine forms of attack, which are called "terrorism".

In either case, however, terror IS the weapon of choice. You can terrorize with suicide bombers. You can terrorize with air strikes, full-scale invasions, and the threat of nuclear strikes. All these are terror tactics.

Both sides are under the illusion that they are good, their opponents are bad, and their opponents started the whole mess and are entirely to blame for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:27 PM

Yer right, LH, and that is exactly why something that resembles the Saudir Peace Plan will one day have to be implimented... There are no other options left short of anniliation of everyone there... Arabs and Jew alike...

Yet there are folks right here in Mudville whom would play politics rather than start a discussion that leads to peace in the Middle East...

Bush could have led that discussion but his handlers said that he could looze the '04 election if he did and that the only way to insure another 4 years of power was to invade Iraq.... So, in the interste of keepin' the Republican Party in powerr, so they could sxtort millions andmillions from the corporations in the name of camapiogn contributions, Bush called for the invasion of Iraq...

Hey, this war ain't go one thing to do with politics...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 07 May 06 - 11:47 PM

If Israel goes down ... the rest of the world goes down with it.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Big Mick
Date: 08 May 06 - 12:47 AM

sIx, could you give us some reasoning for that statement. Inquiring minds want to know.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Barry Finn
Date: 08 May 06 - 01:15 AM

"Typical anti-Jewish anti-Israel hate by some of Mudcat's biggest purveyors such as Foolestroupe, Barry Finn"

Martin, you again play the part of the asshole & you speak of me with out knowing a thing about me.

I'm was born of a Jewish father

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 06:14 AM

Bobert,


You state:
"You don't want peace... You just want to argue and react..."

IMO, YOU are the one who does not want peace, as you refuse to consider that the reasons you state Iran will not attack are invalid. YOU are advocating a path of action that will lead to war, not I.

"Look at how long it took you to read, craft yer debating point and do a cut 'n paste..."

Sorry if I have a better understanding of reality than you seem to.


"It's folks like you who will continue to chooze war over peace..."

No, it is people who do not consider that people will react in ways other than they want them to that are the cause of war.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 06:20 AM

Bobert,

""At some point in time mankind will figure out that in a globalized economy that war is a luxary that mankind can no longer afford... "

I agree with you on this point.


As for the Roadplan, tell me again how that would keep IRAN from its STATED goal of the destruction of Israel? Or Hamas from ITS stated goal of the destruction of Israel?
"

OK, it IS wrong of me to agree with YOU on only 6 minutes thought.
But my question is still valid: TELL ME HOW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 06:34 AM

CarolC

It is a known fact that the Allied commanders knew of the trains taking Jews to the camps, and refused to bomb them because it took rollingstock away from being used for military transport.

Barry,

The ORIGINAL boundaries of the Mandated Jewish Homeland included ALL of Israel, the West Bank and Jordan ( Transjordan) THAT was what was negotiated. Afterwards, WITHOUT negotiation, the League declared that the portion of the Mandate EAST of the Jordan would be excluded from the Homeland, and become an Arab nation. The PARTITION of the Mandate territory was supposed to be into Jewish and Arab areas.
As I have asked before, why do the Arabs who did not accept the invitation to become Israelis have so much greater rights to the land than the Jews in Arab nations who were driven out? As long as it is insisted that the Palestinians "own" Israel, and the Jews who were driven out of Arab countries ( a GREATER number than the Arabs who fled Israel) get nothing, the only thing to think is that Jews are not quite a much human beings as the Arabs. Is THAT what you are trying to say? The Jews driven out of Arab nations had no say in the matter, either- AND they were NOT offered citizenship, as were the Arabs who stayed in Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 07:00 AM

BTW, I include the cut and paste since if I do not, some here insist on doubting that what has been stated is true. Unlike Bobert, I have some REASON to think that what I am saying is based on the facts as best as I know them. If anyone has other FACTS, I am always willing, unlike some here, to consider them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:07 AM

Reread my 07 May 06 12:10 post again, bruce... You obviously missed the answer...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:21 AM

Bobert,

" No one can prove that going back in history would 100% change a situation today... Heck, you can probably find some laung cancer patients who smokes three packs a day who might have gotten lung cancer even if they had never smoked.. Can you prove that??? Well, logic says you can't... But what we do know is that there is a corrilation between smoking and lung cancer...

Same with Iran of today... Heck, maybe the US would have endorsed the Saudi Plan (which they never did) and not invaded Iraq and the Saudi Plan had been accepted and Iran, by virtue of being a supporter of the Plan (which promised Isreal security, BTW) might, ahhh, have decided to buck the rest of the Arab world and not gone along with the program??? Very unlikely... Just as unlikely that the guy with the 3 pack a day habit wouldn't have gotten ling cancer if he had never smoked???"


In spite of the CHARTER of Hamas, AND the realities of the last 58 years, and the PRIOR statements of the Iranians?


YOU are correct- All the Arabs would have changed everything about what they believe, how they have acted in the past, and admitted they have been lying for 60 years, just so you can have a solution.

Right- I do not see any support for your conjectures.

If I state that the UN will tell both sides to go back to the 1924 borders, and live with it, would YOU agree that the Arabs would accept that? They were offered far more in 1948, and did not agree to it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:35 AM

Where in the Saudi Plan is it that proposed to go back to "1924 borders", bruce???...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:40 AM

Nowhere, Bobert. I was giving a hypothetical solution, and asking if it was acceptable- It has the same likelyhood as yours of being so. That WAS the LAST negotiated set of borders that the Arabs agreed to.

You have YET to address any of my concerns about the FACT that the prior actions and statements of the Arabs do not give any encouragement to a peaceful solution.

I ask again,

As for the Roadplan, tell me again how that would keep IRAN from its STATED goal of the destruction of Israel? Or Hamas from ITS stated goal of the destruction of Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:22 AM

Well, I have answered it, Bruce... You just don't like the answer bacuase peaceful conflict resolution is somehow foriegn to yer thinkerator...

The Saudi Proposal ***was*** a "framework" for such conflict resolution... The Unites States did not endorse it because the Bush administration had allready made up its mind to try, yet again, to resolve conflict with military force...

You can pick out any of the specifics of the Saudi Proposal and ask me to prove that had the proposal been adopted that certain folks wouldn't be today saying or doing this or that but that's nuthin' more than a patented bb "red herrring"... Philosophy 101...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:36 AM

Sorry, Bobert.

Saying you have answered something without actually giving an answer does not count.

READ the Hamas charter that I quoted- WHY should we think they would follow the roadplan? THEY state they will not- Or should we presume they are lying: In which case, WHY should we believe them about the Saudi proposal? I have NOT discussed the details- YOU have this preoccupation with telling me what I am trying to do, even when I am not.

You just don't like the answer because YOU do not believe that YOU could be wrong, as you have proven by earlier post about liberal ubermensch.

When you want to discuss FACTS, and not tell me what I am thinking, we can continue a reasonable discussion.

"You just don't like the answer bacuase peaceful conflict resolution is somehow foriegn to yer thinkerator..."

Unproven, unsubstantiated, and false. YOU have a problem with peaceful conflict resolution, if you believe that the possesion of nuclear weapons by a country that has a stated intent of the destruction of another country will lead to "peaceful resolution": Unless you mean that once all the Jews are dead, the middle east will be a ppeaceful place. Which is a poor reflection on you, if true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:47 AM

"Typical anti-Jewish anti-Israel hate by some of Mudcat's biggest purveyors such as Filmstrip, Barry Finn, and the usual suspects."

Ah! typical psychotic malicious striking out against people - and you do not know their religious backgrounds... :-)


And marty, your wit in trying to hide your maliciousness by abusing the privacy of PMs shows you for what you are...

!!!!!!!!
From: Martin Gibson 7 May 2006 10:17 PM

No, the mark of an ordinary guy telling you to fuck your mother's cunt.

thanks.
!!!!!!

!!!!!!
From
Martin Gibson
8 May 2006 07:59 AM

Message:
I only give messages like the one I gave to you for people who deserve it. And you sure did. Putting PMs out there is a Mudcat no-no. It totally backfired on Jack. I was only applauded for keeping what I had to say to you him out of the forum.

My friends here, of which there are plenty get nice messages.

!!!!!!

Marty....

You have been over the line in your public abuse of me.


"Putting PMs out there is a Mudcat no-no."

I have publicly stated before that if ANYONE sends me PMs like you do - they will be made public.

I have done so before, and the person who treated me like you are trying to do so then apologised to me when the abuse was made public.

You don't get to hide behind abuse of privacy privileges with me. If you want to say that sort of thing to me, you will the guts to say it in public, or I will quote you in public - and I will not reply to ANY more of your PMs. I live next to a malicious psychotic bastard like you, and put up with that nonsense at work for decades - I now have only one way to react to such treatment.


"You have been over the line in your public abuse of me."

You have been over the line for years in your public abuse of this forum - put up with the way I treat you as a consequence of your behaviour. or move out of the way!

!!!!!
From another PM from someone else - name withheld

Hi Filmstrip,

I find the PM you received from that 'animal' frankly disgusting.
Have you contacted Joe Offer? It may not help but then again....you never know.

I would support you on the Thread but I am receiving quite a lot of nasty PMs due to my request to close a Thread that those like (and who like) MG have been sending me so if I post I am sure the number of of these foul scripts will increase...so please don't think that by not posting in public means anything.

This disturbed creature should be banned but then there are a few around now members and Guests that should but won't be for some unknown reason.

I really enjoy your company here on the Mudcat and I am sorry that Gobshite (my name for the persona MG) caused you very understandable hurt.

Warmest Wishes to you


My reply


Thanks -

Since I got into trouble with the Mudcat management last time for standing up to Marty's potty mouth and was publicly named by Joe as a 'whinger' about Marty when I had NOT complained to Joe, I now will deal with the matter in my own way - the threads will be deleted by Marty's friends (the clones) immediately they see them, of course.

Abusing the 'privacy privilege' of PMs by foul mouthing people in them sent to me absolves me of any conscience of publicly releasing the contents :-)

I now do believe that Marty is the psychotic extra personality of someone deeply connected with Mudcat - the 'Sir Conan Doyle' approach - 'eliminate the impossible, and what is left, not matter how improbable, must be the answer' - seems to be the only solution.

They REFUSE to trash Marty's password, thus removing the psychotic payback in his using that handle, so I feel that there MUST be some sort of payback for them too.

"I am receiving quite a lot of nasty PMs due to my request to close a Thread that those like (and who like) MG have been sending me so if I post I am sure the number of of these foul scripts will increase"

but I will publish EVERY one such sent to me so hahahahaha! :-)

SO they can't use PMs to intimidate by potty mouth ME in secret!

Robin
!!!!

:-P

P.S. I have changed Foolestroupe's handle to protect the Innocent!

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:57 AM

Barry,

Since you seem to think that the Palestinians should have Israel, since they represent the arabs who lived there previously, I will have to assume that you will also support the giving of Pakistan back to the Hindus who were forced out when Pakistan and India were divided.


And how about Northern Ireland? Do we give it to the Catholics, or give the Protestants the rest of Ireland?

The DIVISION of a country is never neat, easy, or fair- but to claim that ONE side has all the rights, as you have about the Palestinians, is not a reasonable way to come to a solution. Or are you willing to support the rights of the greater number of Jews driven from Arab countries juat as much?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 06 - 10:14 AM

Okay, Bruce... Since you are on a crusade here to engage me into an aragument on how many angels can dance on the end of a pin let's play a little revisionism here... Heck, after reading Teribus's revisionist crap about the Vietnam war on another thread, hey???...

Okay, lets say that Bush hadn't attacked Iraq and the Saudi Proposal had, with a few negotiated twist had produced a treaty and normalization between Isreal and Iran and that both had embassies in each other countries... And lets say that Iran and Isreal had student exchange programs... And lets even say, since we are dealing with hypotheticals here, that the two countries were even involved in a joint energy facility???....

Now to Wit: Today, after 3 years or peace and harmony between two former enemies, Iran decided that Isreal should be destroyed becuase someone reminded Iran that it once harbored those feelings???

Now back to Philosophy 101... Is there congruence in the above stated scenerio??? If so, in less than 500 words, explain...

This is really what it boils down to here, bruce... You are asking me to prove something that is impossible to "prove"... It can't be done anymore than you can come up with a response to the above question... You can give me your opinion but you cannot prove your opinion...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 10:19 AM

And if, in 1948, the Arab nations, instead of attacking Israel, had accepted the Palestinians who wish to leave Israel, and everyone had lived in peace, the entire region would be a lot better off.

YOU are the one who is presenting a revisionist view- YOU HAVE NOT PRESENTED any plan to go from WHERE WE ARE to a peaceful situation- you just say "If Bush had done things differently all would be well."

Well, he didn't- GET OVER IT and tell me YOUR solution to the PRESENT state of affairs, as YOU asked me, AND I REPLIED TO.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bill D
Date: 08 May 06 - 12:49 PM

I'll give you a couple of solutions:

1) Keep on fighting until, like the Gingham dog and the Calico cat, nothing is left.

2)Stop fighting and cooperate.

since no one of significance on either side seems to be willing to try 2), that leaves 1).....and unless some idiot DOES manage to throw nukes into the game, that means 1) will probably go on for a long, long, time.


once more: (did anyone READ it the first time?...No? I guess it didn't fit your agenda of bickering over hypotheticals)

All this debate over who 'might' do what to whom is just posturing and using minutiae to say "I want it my way, and I'll whup anyone who tries to interfere!"

It's not much different, except in details, from Green vs. Orange Ireland.... or Ethnic Serbs vs Ethnic Bosnians ....or Cattlemen vs. Sheepmen ...or Crips vs. Bloods!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 08 May 06 - 01:02 PM

I think foolestroupe has lost it, completely.

He has quite an imagination! Don't 8 year old girls use the expression "potty mouth?"

So, Foolestroupe, did you march for Israel on their 58th anniversary yesterday?

I sure did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 01:40 PM

Beardedbruce, the Allied commanders may have allowed the Holocaust to happen, but the WORLD did not. You really need to learn the distinction between those two things.

Because if the WORLD had done what you are saying it did, which is to say, "nothing", then Hitler would very probably have finished the job he started, and ALL of Europe's Jews would have been killed.

Don't try to diminish the sacrifices made by many thousands of people, many thousands of people who were the relatives and friends of the people all around you. To do so is tacky and beneath contempt.

You should know better than that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 02:22 PM

CarolC,

I do recognize the sacrifice of many during WWII, but the goal was to win the war. I know of few, if any, that actually believed that Hitler was doing what he said he would. ( Sort of like today, with the statements the Iranians are making). The Allied command was aware that large numbers of people were going into the camps, and not out again, and that no food was coming in in anything like the amount needed to feed them.

Do you really think that the Arabs are lying, or that they are telling the truth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 02:34 PM

CarolC,


My grandfather served in WWI (42nd Division) and was gassed He came back, disabled. You seem to have a problem with the treaty agreed to by the succesor to the Ottoman empire with the Allied Powers- Where does that put YOU?

"Don't try to diminish the sacrifices made by many thousands of people, many thousands of people who were the relatives and friends of the people all around you. To do so is tacky and beneath contempt."


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 02:47 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 08 May 06 - 03:47 PM

Never Again


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 08 May 06 - 03:53 PM

"Never Again" ... And just leave it at that ... some people just don't get it.

Mick ... as to why 'if Israel goes down, the rest of the world goes down with it' ... It would setoff such a man made global catastrophe the world would never be the same again. Think about it.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 03:53 PM

Do you really think that the Arabs are lying, or that they are telling the truth?

Which "Arabs", beardedbruce? "Arabs" are not a monolithic entity. Nor are the Iranians necessarily "Arabs". Many of them are Persians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 03:55 PM

CarolC,

btw, the QUOTE that you are so upset about is

"He did not need to add that in 1938, in the face of the gathering storm -- a fanatical, aggressive, openly declared enemy of the West, and most determinedly of the Jews -- the world did nothing."


So, what was your uncle doing in 1938?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 03:57 PM

sorry, crossposted-

Specifically, are the Iranians lying or telling the truth?

Is Hamas, the present elected representatives of the Palestinian people, lying or telling the truth?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:00 PM

My grandfather served in WWI (42nd Division) and was gassed He came back, disabled. You seem to have a problem with the treaty agreed to by the succesor to the Ottoman empire with the Allied Powers- Where does that put YOU?

I don't hold your grandfather responsible for the actions of others, beardedbruce. And I have not accused your grandfather of allowing anything bad to happen, as you have done with your statements about what the "world" allowed to happen in WWII. That is as broad and sweeping a condemnation as it is possible to make. You need to narrow down the language you use when you speak of who "allowed" the Holocaust to happen.

It is probably legitimate to say that the Allied commanders "allowed" it to happen. It is most certainly NOT legitimate to say that the "world" allowed it to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:02 PM

So, what was your uncle doing in 1938?

In 1938, my uncle was a child. Are you going to condemn him for that?

Really, beardedbruce. Get off your high horse. You have no place up there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:02 PM

Never Again


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:03 PM

Specifically, are the Iranians lying or telling the truth?

Whem they say what, specifically?

Is Hamas, the present elected representatives of the Palestinian people, lying or telling the truth?

When they say what, specifically?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:08 PM

as to why 'if Israel goes down, the rest of the world goes down with it' ... It would setoff such a man made global catastrophe the world would never be the same again. Think about it.

And all of the world's diaspora Jews with it. There's nothing like being threatened with nuclear annihilation by your own mother, is there?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:10 PM

Really, CarolC. The quote clearly refers to 1938, when the governments of the world were appeasing Hitler. Thus, your use of your uncle to try to take credit for saving the Jews is a bit much.

You are on the high-horse, here.

As for what they say, I refer to the declaration that Iran will destroy Israel, and that Hamas will not take any negotiations to be binding upon them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:30 PM

Nice wiggle, beardedbruce, no cigar. This quote does not mention 1938 at all, and this is the quote I have a problem with...

"The establishment of Israel was a Jewish declaration to a world that had allowed the Holocaust to happen -- after Hitler had made his intentions perfectly clear -- that the Jews would henceforth resort to self-protection and self-reliance. And so they have, building a Jewish army, the first in 2,000 years, that prevailed in three great wars of survival (1948-49, 1967 and 1973).

This is a broad sweeping condemnation of the entire world for having "allowed" the Holocaust to happen, a Holocaust that was ongoing right up until the end of the European part of WWII. All of the people who died fighting Hitler were helping to stop the Holocaust. All I am asking is that people stop holding the entire world responsible for the behavior of some people. That is not too much to ask.

Thus, your use of your uncle to try to take credit for saving the Jews is a bit much.

This cheap shot is even worse than the other. The depths of your contemptible behavior know no bounds, beardbruce. I have never tried to take credit for anything my unlce did, nor have I ever claimed that my uncle "saved" the Jews.

You really ought to quit while you are behind. You're just digging yourself in deeper and deeper. And you do not help your cause by behaving in this way.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: GUEST,Martin Gibson
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:33 PM

Never Again


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 04:39 PM

As for what they say, I refer to the declaration that Iran will destroy Israel, and that Hamas will not take any negotiations to be binding upon them.

Yes. I think they are lying. Just as I think the government of Israel is lying when it says it is willing to consider the possibility of an independent Palestinian state, and the US government pretty much every time it says anything at all. The people you are talking about are trying to sway the opinions of their target audiences in order to solidify their hold on power in their own countries, and they will say whatever it takes to accomplish this goal. As will the governments of Israel and the US.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 08 May 06 - 07:12 PM

CarolC,

So, you would have Israel negotiate with a group who, even in their own charter cannot tell the truth?

I will continue to disagree about the effort the "world" made to stop the Holecost- If Hitler could have been stopped without saving a single Jew, what do you think would have happened, given the world's actions right up to when Hitler invaded Poland? Look at the number of Jewish refugees prevented from leaving Europe, and prevented from immigration to Mandate Palestine IN SPITE OF THE DECLARERD JEWISH HOMELAND and REQUIREMENT for the British to encourage Jewish immigration to the Mandate Territory by the 1924 Treaty.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 08 May 06 - 07:41 PM

So, you would have Israel negotiate with a group who, even in their own charter cannot tell the truth?

Cannot tell the truth? They may have chosen to not be entirely honest about their intentions, but that is hardly the same as saying they "cannot tell the truth". And the government of Israel has been no more honest about it's intentions than Hamas has been.

Of course Israel should negotiate with them. It has no other choice.


I will continue to disagree about the effort the "world" made to stop the Holecost- If Hitler could have been stopped without saving a single Jew, what do you think would have happened, given the world's actions right up to when Hitler invaded Poland? Look at the number of Jewish refugees prevented from leaving Europe, and prevented from immigration to Mandate Palestine IN SPITE OF THE DECLARERD JEWISH HOMELAND and REQUIREMENT for the British to encourage Jewish immigration to the Mandate Territory by the 1924 Treaty.

You are, once again, dismissing the contributions of many thousands of good people who did what they could to help. This is not wise behavior. Yes, many people did nothing. But many people made the ultimate sacrifice. And many others put their lives at risk to try to save Jewish lives.

Do not try to diminish the contributions and the sacrifices of these people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:17 PM

Never again, Martin??? I haven't read one popstr of yers that deals with what is happening in the Sudan...

Now to my pal, BB...

You say go to the United Nations... Great. except yer guy had marginalized the UN with his attack on Iraq... Everyone knows that he had allready all but ordered the attack when Colin Powell stepped up and forced crybaby to stop in the middle of ordering the invasion so that the UN might become involved...

So, the UN ain't where this thing can be done and I'm not too sure that Bush has any credibility left with thwe world community... His strongest allie in Blair is about to be run outta the UK so, hmmmm, who's left???

So, realisticly, the next president will havwe to clean up this mess up along with the rest of the messes that the Bush folks will leave...

But, like I have said, the Saudi Porposal is a framework and the Saudi's can be brought back into the equation because they are so dependent on the US for security... I have never said that just because Bush made the wrong decision that the Saudi Propasl was dead in the water... Yeah, probably dead for the next 1000 days but, hey, things will change and here is a viable option...

Now, brucie, go back to pokin' holes in the proposal... It shouldn't be too hard since there alot of stuff on Google by the right winged hawks when it came out... But note that these folks who were doing the pokin' at the time were folks who, like Bush, had made up their minds that they were gonna have their "Shock and Awe", come Hell or high water...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:21 PM

You got it Bobert .... that's why I posted "Never again ... people just don't get it."

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 08 May 06 - 08:21 PM

You just can't get bad the old "guys in the white hats and guys in the black hats stuff", can you, BB?

And unfortunately neither can a lot of Muslims and Jews, it seems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:04 PM

Well, LH, all one has to do is look at the world's "super power" as a role model... Purdy bad role model... Certainly ain't one who has the aptience to sit down with folks and try to find common ground... No, the US has demonstarted over4 and over its my-way-or-the-highway foreign policy under various presidents...

We need a drastic change in thinking in ourselves and reshape ourselves and our attitudes...

I mean, just look at how divided we are... Look at way that Martin views "Never Again"... Me and mine... He couldn't care less if genocide is practiced on other folks... Or if he does he never gets around to mentioning it... That's purdy messed up thinking that can only lead to an atmosphere where genocide is okay as long as it ain't me and my homies... That's no change at all... All that guarentees is a greater chance the you-'n-yer's number will come up 'casue you'-'n-yers din't stand up when it was the other folks blood on the killin' floor...

No one ever said that peace ie easy... Or even all that peacefull in fighting (with ideas, gol dangit...) to create but at some point in time the American people are going to have to muster the courage to stop the war monger/corportists among them... And, yes, it will involve a shift in how we spend our resources... The military/industrialists are going to have to do some major retoolin' 'or shut down their businesses...

But it will come... I my life??? I'm not sure... But I am sure it will come... The alternative is too frightening and irresponsible...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:08 PM

bobert, smoked some pot with your son today?

Helping your supplier finance his mansion?

Why should I take anything you say seriously. You sure aren't much of a role model for your son passing that dooby back and forth with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:48 PM

Another juvinilistic attempt to divert folks attention away from the cold hard fact that Marty not only is a hypocrit but suffers from a severe case of poly-morphorse-perverse-guilt...

Doc. Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:54 PM

No guilt here, pal.

And watch your personal attacks.

The secret service already is watching you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:55 PM

"His strongest allie in Blair is about to be run outta the UK so, hmmmm, who's left???"

Little Johnny Howard - another bunch of extra troops are on there way... all about 500 of them... :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Once Famous
Date: 08 May 06 - 09:57 PM

I thought it was Moe Howard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 08 May 06 - 11:33 PM

Pull up your pants, you're showing your ignorance again, Marty!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:02 AM

Bobert,

"You say go to the United Nations... Great. except yer guy had marginalized the UN with his attack on Iraq..."

The UN marginalized itself by it's failure to take action on Iraq as per UNR1447. In case you didn't notice.

"Now, brucie, go back to pokin' holes in the proposal... "

STOP telling ME what to do- I have not poked holes in that proposal, and you know it. If you think it has so many holes, YOU point them out. I just wanted to know

"As for the Roadplan, tell me again how that would keep IRAN from its STATED goal of the destruction of Israel? Or Hamas from ITS stated goal of the destruction of Israel? "


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:14 AM

CarolC,

"The worst crimes were dared by a few, willed by more, and tolerated by all." Tacitus, Roman historian.


The destruction of European Jewry was a gradual, well-organized legal process. The Nazi party and the Reichstag codified a racist legal system to exclude, disenfranchise and murder Jews. The system was upheld and enforced by the German judiciary. This pattern was followed to varying degrees in occupied territories and by sympathetic regimes in Italy, Bohemia-Moravia, Slovakia, France, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Hungary, Rumania, Greece and Poland. This is, indeed, ironic since Western government rests on the precept that civil authority is necessary to protect us against evil.

The environment that made the Holocaust possible was aided by prewar European apathy as well as a concerted effort by the Allies to restrict Jewish immigration below legal quota limits. The ultimate Catch-22 for German Jews is that they were not considered German citizens by the Nazis (Nuremberg Laws, 1935), yet the Americans still classified them as citizens of the Reich and maintained their annual immigration quota at 25,000. "


"Of course Israel should negotiate with them. It has no other choice."


"Hamas Charter: Article Thirteen: Peaceful Solutions, [Peace] Initiatives and International Conferences
[Peace] initiatives, the so-called peaceful solutions, and the international conferences to resolve the Palestinian problem, are all contrary to the beliefs of the Islamic Resistance Movement. For renouncing any part of Palestine means renouncing part of the religion; the nationalism of the Islamic Resistance Movement is part of its faith, the movement educates its members to adhere to its principles and to raise the banner of Allah over their homeland as they fight their Jihad: "Allah is the all-powerful, but most people are not aware." From time to time a clamoring is voiced, to hold an International Conference in search for a solution to the problem. Some accept the idea, others reject it, for one reason or another, demanding the implementation of this or that condition, as a prerequisite for agreeing to convene the Conference or for participating in it. But the Islamic Resistance Movement, which is aware of the [prospective] parties to this conference, and of their past and present positions towards the problems of the Muslims, does not believe that those conferences are capable of responding to demands, or of restoring rights or doing justice to the oppressed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:16 AM

"In late May 1939, the St. Louis, a ship carrying 936 European refugees, of which 900 were Jewish, was denied access to Cuba. The Cuban government asked for a "$500,000 entry fee." The boat lingered off the shores of the United States from June 4-6, 1939. The Coast Guard prevented the passengers from disembarking despite the fact 734 refugees had valid, American quota numbers. Roosevelt was silent. The ship returned to Antwerp on June 17, 1939, and most of the Jews perished in the Holocaust.

...
In May 1939, the British promulgated the White Paper to appease Arab interests in the Middle East. This foreign policy position restricted Jewish immigration to Palestine to 15,000 Jews per year for five years. The White Paper was a violation of the British Mandate as charged by the League of Nations. The British committed substantial naval resources to enforce the policy and, in effect, trapped European Jews three months before the outbreak of World War II. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:20 AM

"During this period, Breckinridge Long, Undersecretary of State for European Affairs, orchestrated American foreign policy to prevent Jews from immigrating. He felt Jews would become spies and saboteurs and urged foreign consuls to use any means necessary to frustrate Jewish sanctuary. Long circulated a memo to foreign embassies in 1939 asking them to erect barriers to Jewish immigration. That same year a special bill was proposed in Congress asking for sanctuary for 10,000 children outside of the quota system. The bill died in Committee. Six months later, legislation was overwhelmingly approved to allow 15,000 children from war-torn England to emigrate. In 1941, the State Department issued a directive that paperwork associated with immigration had to be filled out in Washington, D.C., rather than European embassies. At the Bermuda Conference, (April 1943) , Long successfully argued against making concessions to Jews. On November 26, 1943, the Undersecretary intentionally misled Congress to abandon legislation that would have set up a special commission to deal with the rescue of Jews. In late 1943 , the Treasury Department documented that the State Department advised the Swiss delegation not to accept data from private organizations about extermination camps. The War Refugee Board, which rescued approximately 200, 000 Jews and other victims of Nazi persecution, was not established until January 22, 1944. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:28 AM

"Last week Bernard Lewis, America's dean of Islamic studies, who just turned 90 and remembers the 20th century well, confessed that for the first time he feels it is 1938 again. He did not need to add that in 1938, in the face of the gathering storm -- a fanatical, aggressive, openly declared enemy of the West, and most determinedly of the Jews -- the world did nothing."


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:04 AM

correction to 6:02 post- UNR1441


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:35 AM

Bobert,

"Look at way that Martin views "Never Again"... Me and mine... He couldn't care less if genocide is practiced on other folks... Or if he does he never gets around to mentioning it..."

I have seen as much from Martin about genocide as I have from YOU-

You seem to find a lot to criticize about Bush, but say NOTHING about Sudan. And where are your comments on Bosnia/Serbia? Or even Cambodia?

Oh, I guess if they are not people YOU support it does not matter what happens to them.

The Iranians are presently far more likely to kill off the Palestinians than the Israelis are. And far less likely to care about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:40 AM

So, CarolC, what DID the world do prior to the invasion of Poland to stop the Holocaust?


The quote (NOT my words) still stands:

"The establishment of Israel was a Jewish declaration to a world that had allowed the Holocaust to happen -- after Hitler had made his intentions perfectly clear -- that the Jews would henceforth resort to self-protection and self-reliance."

No insult is intended to those who fought in WWII- but THEY DID NOT STOP THE HOLOCAUST.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 06 - 07:51 AM

Okay, fine, Bruce... May I assume then that you are okay with the basics of the Saudi Proposal??? A "yes" or "no" will suffice...

As fir genocide, I'm not the one who wears Jewishness on my sleeeve... If I were then, yeah, I might be faulted for not having made more statements regarding genocide... But I have mentioned the genocide in the Sudan in threads where it was appropriate...

But in a sense, what Bush has ordered our troops to do in Iraq is a form of genocide and seein' as this is being done in the name of my country, this particular issue weighs in heavily on my soul...

And as fir your accusation that I support genocide, sir, that is totally from your imagination and I challenge you to provide one post, out of the 10,000 some posts I have made here in this forum that would support this accusatioon/suggestion or ***apollogize*** for making itm sir!!! It, my friend, is out of the civilized rules of discussion/debate!!!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:18 AM

Bobert,


I have never seen a FINAL version of the Saudi proposal- If you would send me a link to what you consider one, I will give you my comments on it. I suspect there will be points I agree with, and ones I do not, from the preliminary proposal I have seen.


"As fir genocide, I'm not the one who wears Jewishness on my sleeeve... If I were then, yeah, I might be faulted for not having made more statements regarding genocide... "

I did not know that only Jews were supposed to be concerned about genocide. THAT reflects poorly upon the rest of you. You do claim to be a human being: Is not genocide a concern for you?



"And as fir your accusation that I support genocide, sir, that is totally from your imagination and I challenge you to provide one post, out of the 10,000 some posts I have made here in this forum that would support this accusatioon/suggestion or ***apollogize*** for making itm sir!!! It, my friend, is out of the civilized rules of discussion/debate!!!"

I shall, of course, apologiize as soon as YOU have, to Martin and Bush. YOU have accused them: Either provide your evidence, or withdraw the accusation!


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:39 AM

Oh, I get it now, bruce...

I criticize Martin and Bush so you feel it's okay to accuse me of not being against genocide???

Hmmmmm????

As far as I'm concerned this discussion is over with you... You have insulted me and rationalized it in yer twisted little mind...

And, for the record, YOU owe me an apology./..

Have a nice summer....

See you at the Getaway...

Regard,

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 08:46 AM

Bobert,


You feel it's okay to accuse Martin and Bush of not being against genocide???



YOU said "He couldn't care less if genocide is practiced on other folks... Or if he does he never gets around to mentioning it..."

and "what Bush has ordered our troops to do in Iraq is a form of genocide "


I said "Oh, I guess if they are not people YOU support it does not matter what happens to them."
YOUR SILENCE IS AS SIGNIFICANT AS MARTIN'S.

Are yours NOT insulting? I have offered to apologize when YOU have, since YOU stated them first.


Have a nice summer....

See you at the Getaway... - I have another EKO- flattop.

Regard,

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 10:16 AM

http://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/20062.htm


Seems reasonable, but the devil is in the details. I have not checked all the UNSCRs to see what they state, nor do I understand how the borders will be negotiated, and then later go to the Pre-1967 line- Which is most likely NOT acceptable. SOME negotiation from the 1967 line is needed.


"In Phase I, the Palestinians immediately undertake an unconditional cessation of violence according to the steps outlined below; such action should be accompanied by supportive measures undertaken by Israel. Palestinians and Israelis resume security cooperation based on the Tenet work plan to end violence, terrorism, and incitement through restructured and effective Palestinian security services"
...
At the outset of Phase I:

Palestinian leadership issues unequivocal statement reiterating Israel's right to exist in peace and security and calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire to end armed activity and all acts of violence against Israelis anywhere. All official Palestinian institutions end incitement against Israel.

Israeli leadership issues unequivocal statement affirming its commitment to the two-state vision of an independent, viable, sovereign Palestinian state living in peace and security alongside Israel, as expressed by President Bush, and calling for an immediate end to violence against Palestinians everywhere. All official Israeli institutions end incitement against Palestinians.


Which the present Palestinian government has ruled out.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 10:20 AM

"The Israeli national assessment is that Saudi Arabia today funds more than 50 percent of the needs of Hamas, and the Saudi percentage in the total foreign aid to Hamas is actually growing. U.S. law enforcement officials agree.22 Some Israeli estimates of the Saudi portion of the Hamas budget have been put at 60-70 percent.23 Saudi Arabia continues to aid the families of suicide bombers. It helps dual-use charities and charities that funnel funds directly to military activities against Israel. Indeed, in August 2003, the Hamas spiritual leader, Sheikh Ahmed Yasin, thanked IIRO and WAMY for their assistance during a public address in the Gaza Strip.

On June 29, 2003, Hamas agreed to a temporary truce with Israel called a hudna, but at the same time vigorously sought to rebuild its operational infrastructure, including an effort to increase the quantity and quality of Qassam rockets launched against Israelis towns. Muslim writers have argued in the past that a hudna is to be maintained until the balance of power improves for the Muslim side. Funding Hamas clearly jeopardized efforts to reach a full-scale cease-fire between Israel and the Palestinians and increased the likelihood that Hamas would escalate its militant actions. By August 28, 2003, Hamas was able to launch one of its new extended-range Qassam rockets, developed during the hudna, a distance of nearly six miles, striking the outskirts of Ashkelon. The hudna had already collapsed.

"


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 10:24 AM

U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia Robert Jordan noted: "We have noticed lately in influential mosques the imam has condemned terrorism and preached in favor of tolerance, then closed the sermon with 'O God, please destroy the Jews, the infidels, and all who support them.'"25 In short, all dimensions of the supposed Saudi war on terrorism look incomplete.
(25. Lisa Beyer, "Inside the Kingdom," Time, September 15, 2003. )




Bobert, you state "But, like I have said, the Saudi Porposal is a framework and the Saudi's can be brought back into the equation because they are so dependent on the US for security... I have never said that just because Bush made the wrong decision that the Saudi Propasl was dead in the water... Yeah, probably dead for the next 1000 days but, hey, things will change and here is a viable option..."

yet the above information leads one to believe that the Saudis had more to due with the collapse of the "road map" than anything the US did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 09 May 06 - 11:00 AM

Spain---'37----International brigades including the Lincoln Brigade from the U.S. stood up against the Hitler-Luftwaffe-backed Franco. Arguably, that turned into the Holocaust and the horror of the those four main years of World War 2.

Labeled "premature fascists" and abandoned/harassed by the U.S. government at home, the events unfolded.

Given that hindsight is clearer than the fog of war, Bush is, at least, striving to head off something that he and his henchmen have "foreseen"! I have never supported Bush in this forum, but at least I can see what he is trying to do.

Again, "the best laid plans of mice and men..."

Art


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 06 - 11:31 AM

"From: Martin Gibson - PM
Date: 06 May 06 - 10:39 AM

Beardedbruce

You have completely blown away CarolC and bobert with your arguement. bobert wants to blame his constipation on Bush and comes across as quite foolish.

Both him and carolc are far left radical fascists (snip)



What the holy screaming f**k is a far left radical fascist?

Fascists by definition are about as far to the right as you can get without disappearing completely, and radical just doesn't fit the profile either.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 09 May 06 - 12:35 PM

Excellent post Art.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 12:50 PM

"The worst crimes were dared by a few, willed by more, and tolerated by all." Tacitus, Roman historian.

This makes you and your ancestors responsible for all of the crimes against humanity that have ever been committed by anyone, for any reason, beardbruce. It's good to see you taking responsibility.


The destruction of European Jewry was a gradual, well-organized legal process. The Nazi party and the Reichstag codified a racist legal system to exclude, disenfranchise and murder Jews. The system was upheld and enforced by the German judiciary. This pattern was followed to varying degrees in occupied territories and by sympathetic regimes in Italy, Bohemia-Moravia, Slovakia, France, the Netherlands, Norway, Denmark, Belgium, Luxembourg, Hungary, Rumania, Greece and Poland. This is, indeed, ironic since Western government rests on the precept that civil authority is necessary to protect us against evil.

The environment that made the Holocaust possible was aided by prewar European apathy as well as a concerted effort by the Allies to restrict Jewish immigration below legal quota limits. The ultimate Catch-22 for German Jews is that they were not considered German citizens by the Nazis (Nuremberg Laws, 1935), yet the Americans still classified them as citizens of the Reich and maintained their annual immigration quota at 25,000. "


Yes, I'm quite aware that these things were supported by quite a few people. But they were not supported by the entire world. If they had been, all of Europe's Jews would have been eliminated.

You don't seem to have the ability to understand the difference between "some" and "all", beardedbruce. A tragic flaw that you share with many others.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 01:23 PM

"This makes you and your ancestors responsible for all of the crimes against humanity that have ever been committed by anyone, for any reason,"

If one goes far enogh back, we are all descended from the same few individuals.

But I am glad that you, from your god-like position of judgement, have deigned to inform me of my many flaws.


Try reading my posts, and tell me what government did anything to STOP the Holocaust before Germany invaded Poland?



"You don't seem to have the ability to understand the difference between "some" and "all", "

Some of what you have said is significant- the problem is that you think all of it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 09 May 06 - 01:40 PM

tahnk you, Don, for taking the time to point out how ignorant "left radical fascists"...

The components of facsism are quite foriegn to the beliefs of progressives....

No, if one looks at what the BVush administartion has tried to pull off one will find almost every component of fascist thinking:

1. Centralization of power? check

2. Push of nationalism? check

3. Goon squads? (brownshirts) check

4. Heave ties to the "industrialists"? hello

5. Persecution of minority opinions? hello, part B

Yeah, let's keep this in perspective here, folks...

I find it curious that Martin can support an administration which practices the tenants of fascism???

This isn't merely an opinion but general observastions, as well...

And, BTW, Mudcat has it's share of goons/brownshirts...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 01:48 PM

Try reading my posts, and tell me what government did anything to STOP the Holocaust before Germany invaded Poland?

Try reading my posts, and you'll see that I am not talking about governments. I am talking about INDIVIDUALS. Individuals were not able to prevent the Holocaust, but they were able to stop it before it was finished. And they did.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 09 May 06 - 01:52 PM

Is the U.S. currently a fascist regime or totalitarian regime. I tend to think it is totalitarian. A fascist regime is dictated by a dictator. Bush certainly isn't one .... and I don't think he has the makings of one.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:26 PM

Mybe not Geedubya six, but what about the puppetmasters, Cheney and Rove?

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:29 PM

Fine, CarolC. Your uncle singlehandedly stopped the Holocaust.

But Israel cannot afford to wait for him to be resurrected, to save them again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: number 6
Date: 09 May 06 - 04:44 PM

Don T ... "Cheney and Rove" ... now those 2, specifically Cheney has what it takes to be a good dictator of a fascist nation.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:39 PM

beardedbruce, that kind of snide comment is, as I said before, beneath contempt.

My uncle was one of the many thousands I have been consistently talking about, who did their best to help. Any suggestion that I have been saying anything other than that is a total fabrication on your part, and is nothing more than a cheap attempt to score points.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:41 PM

And the world doesn't need the people who fought Hitler to return to save the day. We now have a huge nuclear stockpile to serve as our deterrant.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 09 May 06 - 05:46 PM

which, as I demonstrated to Bobert, will not deter Iran in the least.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 09 May 06 - 06:22 PM

...as you "tried" to demonstrate.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 07:37 AM

Tried? SHOW ME where he made ANY refutation.


YOU have "tried" to claim that the world DID STOP the Holocaust.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: Bobert
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:36 AM

No, I made my arguments, Bruce... You just dismissed them because you didn't like them... All you wanted to do was engage me in a pointless debate about how manhy angels can dance on the end of a pin... Then you, in yer twisted manner, havin' not really responded to anything I said other than your standard mantra of expecting me to "PROVE" somethin' that is basically unproveable and when I told you that and gave you an example (cigarettes and cancer) you twisted by answer to insinuate that I supported genocide???

That, sir, was insulting and no mre productive than anything that Martin Gibson might throw into a discussion...

Onme thing, however, is that in reading your posts I can clearly see how folks like you and your hero, George W., get themselves into such messes... There is a dogmatism to both of you that stimies the exchange of free ideas... This is exactly what the brownshirts did 'cept in this case you won't bully me with your insults...

When Martin started harassing me last year I just started ignoring him and he stopped so that's what I'm going to do with you... You may flail away at me as much as you like but guess what, pal??? A lot of people see right thru yer tactics and the more you flail and try to make it look as I'm the one with the probelms the more you prove the observations I have made...

Now I will go back to ignoring your borish and inulting posts...

Regards,

Bobert

p.s. You still owe me an apology, sir...


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:41 AM

Bobert,

YOU stated that the nuclear devices available to Israel would be a deterrent. My statements were to disprove THAT statement- which I believe thay have, as you did not give any alternative reasons that would refute them.

As for the apology, YOU owe several BEFORE I need to give you one- Or are YOU the broiwnshirt, insisting on special priviledges?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 10 May 06 - 08:42 AM

My father was a Warrant officer in the RAAF in England/Scotland up til VE Day, then returned to Australia to organise burying the training casualities (his least favourite job) at Bundaberg Base where he met my mum - that's my excuse. Anyway - he did his assigned boring bit of being a very small cog in a very large military machine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: redsnapper
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:08 AM

Beardedbruce,

To support CarolC's statement that individuals often played a very great part in the saving of Jews in WW2, a well-documented (but little-known) example is the saving of around 7000 Jews in Denmark (boated over to the Swedish mainland or via the Swedish Island of Ven) was organized by a very small group of Danish resistance fighters, and is well documented. It was actually a single German official, Georg Duckwitz, who leaked the information about the imminent deportation to a Danish politician and thence to the resistance. Only a very few were caught and a number of ordinary local Danish fishermen, who assisted in the evacuation, were killed by the Nazis.

Often, it has been ordinary people, rather than governments, that have made the difference.

RS


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:16 AM

RS,

I DO NOT DENY THAT.

But HOW does the actions of those brave, couragous individuals negate the statement:
"The establishment of Israel was a Jewish declaration to a world that had allowed the Holocaust to happen -- after Hitler had made his intentions perfectly clear -- that the Jews would henceforth resort to self-protection and self-reliance."?

CarolC states The Israeli government does..." all the time- IF I POINT OUT that a few members of that government DID NOT do whatever she said, does that mean HER statement is false?

DID the Holocaust HAPPPEN? The implication she presents is that it did not, since ALL the Jews were not killed.

DID the world stop it from happening? If so, why did 6 million Jews, 2 million Gypsies, and a number of others die?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:23 AM

Bobert,

"No, I made my arguments, Bruce..."

Which I read, and responded dierectly to.

" You just dismissed them because you didn't like them... "

A FALSE statement on your part- I provided facts that showed that your arguements were NOT supported by facrts, and invited you to provide facts to back them up

"All you wanted to do was engage me in a pointless debate about how manhy angels can dance on the end of a pin..."

THAT is YOUR effort not mine.

"Then you, in yer twisted manner, havin' not really responded to anything I said other than your standard mantra of expecting me to "PROVE" somethin' that is basically unproveable "

WHAT did I NOT respond to? PLEASE give me an example.


"and when I told you that and gave you an example (cigarettes and cancer) you twisted by answer to insinuate that I supported genocide???"

I stated that YOU have the same level of support for genocide as YOU have, without any facts, sstated that Martin and Bush have. I then invited you to provide some support for YOUR accusations, which YOU have NOT done.


That, sir, was insulting and no mre productive than anything that Martin Gibson might throw into a discussion...

So, YOU have the right to make unfounded accusations, and have YOUR opinions accepted as fact without support, while those who disagree with you do not?


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:35 AM

CarolC,

Tell me what part of

"Former president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, the presumed moderate of this gang, has explained that "the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam." The logic is impeccable, the intention clear: A nuclear attack would effectively destroy tiny Israel, while any retaliation launched by a dying Israel would have no major effect on an Islamic civilization of a billion people stretching from Mauritania to Indonesia."

YOU dispute- and the reasons why.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 May 06 - 09:55 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 06 - 05:44 PM

I refuted it, beardedbruce, when I told you that it is not necessary to blanket the entire area of Iran with nuclear bombs to completely destroy it. And I provided a valid example to back up my assertion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 10 May 06 - 05:49 PM

"Former president Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, the presumed moderate of this gang, has explained that "the use of a nuclear bomb in Israel will leave nothing on the ground, whereas it will only damage the world of Islam." The logic is impeccable, the intention clear: A nuclear attack would effectively destroy tiny Israel, while any retaliation launched by a dying Israel would have no major effect on an Islamic civilization of a billion people stretching from Mauritania to Indonesia."

So if this is your logic, how do you propose to stop what you consider inevitable without destroying the whole of the Islamic world? Of course, I think that might be what you are really advocating... the destruction of the entire Islamic world (one little bit at a time). There are many people who, like you, will not consider the job complete until all of the Muslim world is destroyed. And that is why people like the leaders in Iran are so determined to be able to defend themselves. You and people like you are creating a self-fulling prophecy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 06 - 07:03 AM

CarolC,

"So if this is your logic, how do you propose to stop what you consider inevitable without destroying the whole of the Islamic world? Of course, I think that might be what you are really advocating... "

I have not been advocating this- the Iranians ARE. THIS IS THE STATEMENT OF THE IRANINS. YOU have been saying that they would be totally destroyed, yet THEY do not think so- SO NO DETERRENT.

"There are many people who, like you, will not consider the job complete until all of the Muslim world is destroyed"

YOU are the one who insists that we allow the situation to become one where nuclear war becomes a reality, NOT ME. I HAVE NEVER STATED, nor implied, that ANY nation SHOULD be destroyed- while those YOU say SHOULD have nuclear weapons HAVE stated that.

"You and people like you are creating a self-fulling prophecy. "

Actually, I think that YOU and people like you are trying to create a world where Israel has ONLY the choice between being destroyed and destroying those who attack them- While I would rather see one where the threats to Israel's existance are not ignored. I feel that peace is still possible- YOU appear to think that only the destruction of the state of Israel will "solve" the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 06 - 08:19 AM

CarolC,

"I refuted it, beardedbruce, when I told you that it is not necessary to blanket the entire area of Iran with nuclear bombs to completely destroy it. And I provided a valid example to back up my assertion."


The present existance of the Afghan people proves you wrong.

Your TELLING me something does not make it true.

Ihave firsthand knowledge of NATO installations that were considered "a-bomb proof" ( In Europe)- They were expected to survive a nuclear strike, and be able to resume operations. That was in the 1970's- I think that the Iranians are more than capable of having such now.

As noted in another thread, the MAJORITY in Iran DOES NOT support the mullahs- BUT the 10% or so that does HAS CONTROL. So, why would the Mullahs care if say, 60% of the population was killed, as long as THEY kept alive?

You have NOT refuted my arguement.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 06 - 08:51 AM

"There are many people who, like you, will not consider the job complete until all of the Muslim world is destroyed. "


Any suggestion that I have been saying THAT is a total fabrication on your part, and is nothing more than a cheap attempt to score points.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:08 AM

The present existance of the Afghan people proves you wrong.

Not really, beardedbruce. The Afghan people are a threat to no-one. Their country has been destroyed.

Actually, I think that YOU and people like you are trying to create a world where Israel has ONLY the choice between being destroyed and destroying those who attack them- While I would rather see one where the threats to Israel's existance are not ignored. I feel that peace is still possible- YOU appear to think that only the destruction of the state of Israel will "solve" the problem.

Hardly. I think that the course of action you are advocating is far more likely to result in the destruction of Israel than the course of action that I am advocating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:26 AM

We disagree on that.

So, the Afghans have been destroyed, but the Holocaust is incomplete because of a few survivors...

The mullahs in Iran would be happy to rule in a world as "destroyed" as Afghanistan.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: CarolC
Date: 11 May 06 - 11:36 AM

So, the Afghans have been destroyed

No, the Afghans have not been destroyed. Their country has been destroyed. There is a big difference between these two things. It is possible to destroy a country without killing all of the people in it.

but the Holocaust is incomplete because ofc a few survivors...

The Holocaust wasn't about destroying a country. It was about killing everyone who belonged to a particular religion and ethnic group. Again, there is a big difference between these two things.


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Subject: RE: BS: Again?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 11 May 06 - 10:59 PM

Well,

Hitler HAD written clearly about that 'Jewish Problem' long before he started to gain real power, but he actually started on the mentally feeble, the morally feeble (homosexuals), then moved on to political enemies, communists, ministers of religion (but since he had a deal with the pope, he left HIS boyos alone, mostly, allowing him to work on the pope's enemies, the Lutherans!) gypsies, and lots of other groups. The Jews were a good popular target too - for there was ALREADY much resentment against them, fomented by the Christian Churches over centuries, and as the war machine wound up and the country fell more strongly under political control, it became much easier to dispose quietly (without public fuss) of the large numbers of that ethnic and religious group too.

I have always felt empathy for that large ethnic/religious group, but have begun to feel increasing annoyance at the 'political takeover' of the massacre as 'just against the Jews'. That's rewriting history too!


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