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BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv

Stringsinger 26 Apr 06 - 01:16 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 25 Apr 06 - 03:18 PM
beardedbruce 25 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM
CarolC 25 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM
CarolC 25 Apr 06 - 02:56 PM
beardedbruce 25 Apr 06 - 02:52 PM
CarolC 25 Apr 06 - 02:44 PM
beardedbruce 25 Apr 06 - 02:38 PM
beardedbruce 25 Apr 06 - 02:24 PM
beardedbruce 25 Apr 06 - 02:11 PM
CarolC 25 Apr 06 - 12:48 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 25 Apr 06 - 12:46 PM
CarolC 24 Apr 06 - 11:04 PM
Jack the Sailor 24 Apr 06 - 06:20 AM
dianavan 23 Apr 06 - 11:54 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM
beardedbruce 23 Apr 06 - 09:06 PM
GUEST,dianavan 23 Apr 06 - 04:01 PM
Jack the Sailor 23 Apr 06 - 03:54 PM
Once Famous 23 Apr 06 - 05:16 AM
Teribus 23 Apr 06 - 03:59 AM
GUEST, heric 22 Apr 06 - 06:07 PM
CarolC 22 Apr 06 - 05:04 PM
GUEST 22 Apr 06 - 01:04 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 22 Apr 06 - 01:01 PM
GUEST 22 Apr 06 - 11:36 AM
CarolC 22 Apr 06 - 10:52 AM
Jack the Sailor 22 Apr 06 - 09:36 AM
Wolfgang 22 Apr 06 - 09:01 AM
CarolC 22 Apr 06 - 02:00 AM
GUEST,dianavan 22 Apr 06 - 01:50 AM
CarolC 22 Apr 06 - 01:33 AM
C. Ham 22 Apr 06 - 12:06 AM
GUEST,JTS 21 Apr 06 - 11:45 PM
GUEST,dianavan 21 Apr 06 - 08:09 PM
CarolC 21 Apr 06 - 05:14 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 21 Apr 06 - 04:11 PM
CarolC 21 Apr 06 - 02:54 PM
beardedbruce 21 Apr 06 - 02:37 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 21 Apr 06 - 02:29 PM
CarolC 21 Apr 06 - 02:09 PM
CarolC 21 Apr 06 - 02:08 PM
folk1e 21 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM
C. Ham 21 Apr 06 - 01:08 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 21 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 21 Apr 06 - 01:01 PM
CarolC 21 Apr 06 - 12:44 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 21 Apr 06 - 12:24 PM
CarolC 21 Apr 06 - 11:55 AM
CarolC 21 Apr 06 - 11:34 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 01:16 PM

Terrorism is one of those blanket words that really have little meaning because it can be interpreted pretty much to mean anything.

Suicide bombers are sick fanatics. Attacking the country that harbors them will only cause WWIII.

The solution is for Israel, the US and other countries to look at their own role in propagating the craziness of the Islamic reaction.
Then maybe something realistic can be done to stem this crazy tide.

I don't think that Islam is ready for world domination. I'm not so sure about the so-called Christian foreign policy of the Bush Administration. There runs through the history of Islam a certain practical streak amidst the fanaticism that leads them to know that Sharia, as rigid and nuts as it is, can't apply to all peoples. The history of the Crusades brought that point home.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 03:18 PM

Since my statements are based on reports made to the British Administration and United Nations (then League of Nations) from Interim Report June 1921 and subsequent reports. Including statements on how the arab infant death rates were lower and education levels improved to higher standards than other countries due to money and industry of the Zionist movement. A matter of public record, and available via the UK Gov records and UN. Care to back up your allegation that its entirely false CaroleC?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM

"You said that these borders were rejected by the "Arabs" at the time, so they should not be used either, if we use your reasoning."

Actually, they were the LAST agreed upon borders by both sides.


"After the expulsion of the Greek forces by the Turkish army under the command of Kemal Atatürk (Kemal Atatürk: more facts about this subject) , there appeared to be a need to renew Treaty of Sèvres (Treaty of Sèvres: the treaty of sèvres of august 10, 1920, made peace between the allied and associated...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) . In October 20th, 1922 the peace conference was opened, and after harsh debates, in February, 4th it was interrupted. Reopening in April, 23rd the treaty was signed in July, 24th after a total of 8 months of long and arduous discussions."

The UN borders were NEVER agreed to by the Arabs- But the borders defined by the 1922 Conference WERE. So, they are far more valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM

And I think that adhering to the San Remo conference borders of the Mandate Palestine Territory is an excellent idea. So, if the borders of Turkey as determined by that treaty are ok, why not the borders of Israel?

Because they were rejected by the "Arabs", and according to your own reasoning, that is enough reason to reject them.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:56 PM

Actually, I was pointing out, that by the TREATY, the Mandate Palestine area that was to be the Jewish homeland INCLUDED the ENTIRE West bank.... I would be happy to use those borders, though I think you would not. The UN borders of 1949 were rejected by the Arabs at that time, so they should not be used.

Are you saying that the borders you mentioned before... the ones that you said would give the Jews only about 30 percent of mandate Palestine, allotted all of the West Bank for the Jewish homeland?

You said that these borders were rejected by the "Arabs" at the time, so they should not be used either, if we use your reasoning.

But WHY are the pre-1967 borders so much more valid than any of the others?

As I've said before... I don't really think they are more valid than the UN partition plan borders. In fact, I think they are far less valid. But the 1967 borders seem to be the compromise that has the best chance of succeeding.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:52 PM

And I think that adhering to the San Remo conference borders of the Mandate Palestine Territory is an excellent idea. So, if the borders of Turkey as determined by that treaty are ok, why not the borders of Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:44 PM

No, BUT if you call into question the legitimacy of one set of borders determined by treaty, you call into question ALL the borders determined by that treaty.

If we are talking about the borders that the UN established in the partition plan, I am not the one who calls their legitimacy into question. It is the government of Israel (as well as you, it would appear) who calls them into question.

I think adhering to the UN partition plan borders is an excellent idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:38 PM

Last week, the Jordanian government asked Hamas to postpone a visit by the Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Al-Zahhar after announcing they had found Syrian-supplied weapons that Hamas had smuggled into Jordan.

"The spokesman, Nasser Judeh, said the latest weapons were smuggled into Jordan by Hamas members in Syria and were intended for use in terror attacks against Jordanian targets including Jordanian officials.

"The security apparatus seized weapons, TNT explosives, T4, and missiles to target some foundations and a number of officials," Judeh said.

Last week Hamas leaders denied smuggling the weapons. Hamas leaders said they were focused on fighting Israel and had no intention of interfering in other Arab states."


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/25/jordan.hamas/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:24 PM

"Or at least you consider the decision that was made "the same conferences" with regard to how land should be allotted in Palestine to be invalid."

Actually, I was pointing out, that by the TREATY, the Mandate Palestine area that was to be the Jewish homeland INCLUDED the ENTIRE West bank.... I would be happy to use those borders, though I think you would not. The UN borders of 1949 were rejected by the Arabs at that time, so they should not be used.

But WHY are the pre-1967 borders so much more valid than any of the others?
blue clickies on my post of
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 04:31 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:11 PM

"The majority of the approximately 750,000 people in this multi-ethnic region were Arabic-speaking Muslims, including a Bedouin population (estimated at 103,331 at the time of the 1922 census [2] and concentrated in the Beersheba area and the region south and east of it), as well as Jews (who comprised some 11% of the total) and smaller groups of Druze, Syrians, Sudanese, Circassians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Hejazi Arabs.

In June 1922 the League of Nations passed the Palestine Mandate. The Palestine Mandate was an explicit document regarding Britain's responsibilities and powers of administration in Palestine including "secur[ing] the establishment of the Jewish national home", "

"In 1936-1939 the mandate experienced an upsurge in militant Arab nationalism that became known as the Great Uprising and, "The Arab Revolt." The revolt was triggered by increased Jewish immigration, primarily Jews that were ejected by the Nazi regime in Germany as well as rising anti-Semitism throughout Europe. The revolt was led or co-opted by the Grand Mufti, Haj Amin Al-Husseini and his Husseini family. The Arabs felt they were being marginalized in their own country, but in addition to non-violent strikes, they resorted to violence. Husseini's men killed more Arabs than Jews, using the revolt as an excuse to settle accounts with rival clans. The Jewish organization Etzel replied with its own terrorist campaign, with marketplace bombings and other violent acts that also killed hundreds. Eventually, the uprising was put down by the British using severe measures. After he was implicated in killing the British district commissioner for the Galilee, Haj Amin El Husseini fled first to Lebanon, then to Iraq, and finally to Germany in late 1941.

The British placed restrictions on Jewish land purchases in the remaining land, directly contradicting the provision of the Mandate which said "the Administration of Palestine... shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency... close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not acquired for public purposes." A similar proposal to limit immigration in 1931 had been termed a violation of the mandate by the League of Nations, but by 1939 the League of Nations was defunct. According to the Israeli side, the British had by 1949 allotted over 8500 acres (34 km²) to Arabs, and about 4000 acres (16 km²) to Jews."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine




"Or at least you consider the decision that was made "the same conferences" with regard to how land should be allotted in Palestine to be invalid."

No, BUT if you call into question the legitimacy of one set of borders determined by treaty, you call into question ALL the borders determined by that treaty. If you want, we can renegotiate ALL the borders of the areas ceded by the Ottoman Empire to the Allied Powers after WW I- INCLUDING Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and Suadi Arabia. But no picking on JUST Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 12:48 PM

That's entirely untrue, Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 12:46 PM

If you examine the origins of the statistics, There was a massive influx of arabs into the region, but only after the jewish population improved irrigation, and generally raised the standard of living of the arab population.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 11:04 PM

So, as of 1945 the population of 31% Jews was supposed to get 23% of the Mandate Palestine Territory. The UN resolution gave them less than that, and the Arabs still refused to agree.

Considering the fact that as of 1917 the population of Palestine was only 8 percent Jewish (and the fact that in 1945, many of the European Jews in Palestine were illegal aliens), I think I can understand why the "Arabs" (the indegenous Palestinians) refused. They knew what was going to happen to them. They knew the plan was to displace them, and they had every reason and every right to not agree to be displaced.


Or will you declare that the borders of Turkey, determined at the same conferences, should be invalid?

I have no opinions at this time about whether or not I would condiser the borders of Turkey to be valid or invalid. However it certainly looks to me like you consider them invalid. Or at least you consider the decision that was made "the same conferences" with regard to how land should be allotted in Palestine to be invalid.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the borders as defined by the UN resolution, but clearly you do disagree with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 06:20 AM

I don't know much about C. Ham. But I hope you are not putting him/her in the same category as Martin. Though C.Ham does toss out the rare mild attack. He/she seems willing to stick to the issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 11:54 PM

Thanks for the reminder, Jack.

That comment wasn't meant as an insult to Jews.

Of course Martin and C. Ham do not speak for Jews anywhere, especially not for the Jews living in Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM

Dianavan,

Martin doesn't speak for Israel. I don't see much point in discussing this with him. He's just here for the insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 09:06 PM

CarolC,

You have not addressed my commnet

So, as of 1945 the population of 31% Jews was supposed to get 23% of the Mandate Palestine Territory. The UN resolution gave them less than that, and the Arabs still refused to agree.

Or will you declare that the borders of Turkey, determined at the same conferences, should be invalid?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 04:01 PM

Since C. Ham doesn't seem to want to answer any questions, perhaps you can Martin.

Is it true that Jews think they are superior to Arabs?

Let me re-word that.

Do Israelis think they are superior to Palestinians?

C. Ham seems to think that might is right and that white supremacy is alive and well when it comes to territorial rights in Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 03:54 PM

Martin,

No one dislikes you because you are a Jew. You need to seperate your own bad acts from your heritage. The responsibility for your horrible personality belongs to you and you only. Don't smear other Jews with your vile and bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 05:16 AM

Through all of the thread drift, Mudcat anti-semitism and Jew bashing disguised as anti-Israel sentiment comes through as always predictably by the usual Mudcat Jew haters.

And I mean "usual suspects" in the same manner as Joe Offer has used it.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 03:59 AM

"Israel doesn't want to deal with Palestinian secularists or fundamentalists so where does that leave the Palestinians?"

Precisely where they have always been - listening to a lot of impossible, empty promises of jam tomorrow and totally bereft of any real leadership.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 06:07 PM

C.Ham is STILL googling Chinook and Cowlitz, twelve hours later. Too f'ing funny!

Thread drift is the best. . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 05:04 PM

Israel doesn't want to deal with Palestinian secularists or fundamentalists so where does that leave the Palestinians?

My guess (and this ties in a bit with what Guest, 22 Apr 06 - 11:36 AM was saying) is that civil war between the different Palestinian factions is exactly what the government of Israel wants, and that it will do everything it possibly can to try to encourage such a scenario. But I suspect that, like every other strategy the government of Israel has tried so far, this one will backfire as well, and many innocent Israelis as well as Palestinians will die because of it (as always).


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:04 PM

Carol C. - Its actually more complicated than that. Our history and our lineage is completely muddled due to the fact that the Cowlitz (my grandmother) stayed on the land and what remained of the Chinook were put on a reserve with their traditional enemies, the Chehalis. Just to confuse matters more, when the Europeans finally got around to trying to figure out how we were all related, they tried to fit us into a patrinlineal lineage pattern when, in fact, we were
matrilineal.

Bottom line - we all spoke Chinook (the language of trade) because it was the language that survived and due to intermarriage, we are all related. Whatever is happening in the courts today has nothing to do with the way we related in the past.

Anyway - thread drift.....

I think Guest may be right. The tug and pull between secular and fundamental Muslims has been going on for a long time. We see it now in Iraq and we have seen it in Afghanistan and in Iran. The U.S. takes full advantage of this and usually support the secularists who in turn are indebted to the West. When the people get sick of the corruption, they swing to the other side. This is not unlike America who swing between Democrats and Republicans.

I wonder what the rest of the world would think if another country decided to rescue the U.S. from the Republican, Christian Fundamentalists who keep the rest of the nation in poverty, destroy hard-won human rights, and rule with an iron hand?

Israel doesn't want to deal with Palestinian secularists or fundamentalists so where does that leave the Palestinians?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:01 PM

While many Europeans are urging resumption of financial and political support for the new Palestinian government, the UN is (like the Israelis) insisting that the new terrorist government change it's policies first. Hamas is not changing, and is trying to raise cash from Moslem countries, as funds from Western donors continue to dry up. Israelis are fed up with the Palestinians, who cannot unite, or provide anyone reliable to negotiate with. The Palestinians are not happy with themselves, and the rest of the Moslem world is losing enthusiasm for a situation that never seems to get resolved, despite so many efforts to negotiate one. One outcome of all this is that by building a wall, the israelis may actually declare a defined border by themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 11:36 AM

Saw a Palestinian professor on TV last night. He predicted that it won't be Israel that proves the undoing of the Palestinians, that it will be a Palestinian civil war of Islamic fundamentalists versus secular factions. He said open warfare would break out within the year, that Israel will stay out of it and that the other Arab countries will be too afraid to intervene because it would stir up Islamic versus secular factions in their own countries. The civil war will set the Palestinians back for generations to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 10:52 AM

LOL

Lacking anything of substance to contribute, Wolfgang sits on the sidelines and throws spitballs.

lololol...


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 09:36 AM

"Everyone knows that among the Indian peoples of the Pacific Northwest, the Chinook and the Cowlitz are traditional enemies whose disputes are still being played out, although their battlefield today is the courtroom."

Everyone know that huh? LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 09:01 AM

18 posts by C.Ham, 49 posts by Carol.

Carol has won.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 02:00 AM

Dianavan, in Navaho culture, to say one is "abc" from the "def" band (substituting letters for actual names), would mean that one of the tribes or bands mentioned refer to the paternal line and the other tribe (or band) mentioned would refer to the maternal line. Is this the case with the people you come from? In other words, when you say you're "Chinook from the Cowlitz band", are you referring to one side of your family when you say Chinook, and the other side when you say Cowlitz? (Or in your case, I guess it would have been one side of your grandmother's family and the other side of your grandmother's family.)


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:50 AM

The Chinook and Cowlitz may have raided each other now and then but to my knowledge they were never "traditional enemies". Are you confusing the Chinook and the Chehalis?

Due to cultural genocide, the Chinook eventually integrated with the Chehalis (put on the same reserve) but the Cowlitz remained on the land and largely assimilated. The Chinook Nation encompasses many other tribes (or bands) of people living around the Columbia River. Take a look at a map.

Please don't try to tell me about my historical roots and don't ask me to display my dead grandmother. An accurate history of the Chinook is long gone but the Cowlitz remain. Its taken years for the U.S. government to even acknowlege our existence and now C. Ham thinks he knows all about us. Where did you get your info C. Ham? My grandmother told me who I am. And yes, the Chinook and the Cowlitz are presently arguing (splitting hairs) about a burial ground. This hardly makes them enemies.

Anyway, this is thread drift.

Stick to the subject, Hambone, and answer the question,

"Are you saying that Jews think they are superior to Arabs?"


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:33 AM

beardedbruce, I've had a look back at as many of your requests for documentation as I could find, and it looks to me like all of the questions you raised have been addressed and/or answered in subsequent discussion. But if you have any particular ones that you still want me to find documentation for, please let me know.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:06 AM

BTW - I am Chinook from the Cowlitz band and I am both a U.S. citizen and a Canadian.

Well, as Guest JTS says, "Very good Dianavan. Very very good."

But maybe you should have stuck with Chinook, or maybe you should have stuck with Cowlitz. Everyone knows that among the Indian peoples of the Pacific Northwest, the Chinook and the Cowlitz are traditional enemies whose disputes are still being played out, although their battlefield today is the courtroom.

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:45 PM

:-)

Very good Dianavan.

Very very good!


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:09 PM

C. Ham - You are making some mighty big assumptions. What makes you think I'm White?

Comparing European settlers in N. America and European Jews in Palestine is comparing apples to oranges. I don't think the Europeans in North America lived through a holocaust and then turned around and took part in ethnic cleansing. Lets face it, European settlers at that time were largely uneducated and believed that they were superior. Are you saying that Jews think they are superior to Arabs?

Put both situations in perspective. What occurred in North America happened long before what happened in Palestine. You would think that intelligent people would be able to learn from the past. I would hope also that considering the discrimation that Jews have been subjected to, it would make them more humane.

I guess not.

BTW - Oil may not have been as big an issue then as it is now but you can bet that after World War II, the need for oil became very obvious. An ally in the Middle East was needed to protect the economic interest of the U.S. It was also necessary to build a strong military presence in the region. Why do you think the U.S. helps Israel?

BTW - I am Chinook from the Cowlitz band and I am both a U.S. citizen and a Canadian. I do not believe in White superiority nor do I believe that any people should be displaced. There is no justification for robbery. Thats why land claims are still being negotiated in North America.

Israelis on the other hand, continue to expand and displace other people. When the U.S. or Canadian governments try to do that, we try to stop them. What do you expect people to do, roll over and die? Of course they are going to fight to save their homes and their land.

Might is not always right.

And when people rise up, you are shocked. Grab a brain.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 05:14 PM

Hard to say, Dave. Some of them stayed behind (and becam Mizrahim), didn't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 04:11 PM

There is a lot of controversial interpretations of the history, and one could easily find written evidence to support alternate views, but I don't think it is fair to use the word migrated, I would have said exiled by force; but that is minutiae isn't it CaroleC ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:54 PM

I'm not attacking you, Dave. As I said before, if you are not suggesting that the Ashkenazim preceeded the "Palestinians" in that area, we are not in substantial disagreement on that point. However, since the Ashkenazim (and Sephardim) migrated out of the area, and the Mizrahim and the "Palestinians" did not, and since the Mizrahim and the "Palesinians" and their ancestors have lived continuously in the area right up to the 20th century, this gives the Mizrahim and the "Palestinians" a greater right to call the area that became known as "Palestine" their homeland than the Ashkenazim and to some extent, the Sephardim.

And the Jews who fled to areas outside Arab countries have never been allowed to return to their homes. That is proof enough that the Arab countries were deliberately committing ethnic cleansing.

Quite possibly so.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:37 PM

And the Jews who fled to areas outside Arab countries have never been allowed to return to their homes. That is proof enough that the Arab countries were deliberately committing ethnic cleansing.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:29 PM

Exactly CaroleC, You proved my point, I am not contradicting anything but you attack me as if I am. The burden of proof was supplied to you a long time ago, but you continue to argue something despite it why? I can only think it is a personality thing with you that goes beyond the debate in question.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:09 PM

And Dave, your two links support what I have been saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:08 PM

Read the link in my last post. Read the whole post even.

First of all, I am not suggesting that the Ashkenazim did not originate in that reagion, nor that they came after the people who became the "Palestinians". I am saying that it is very probable that they both are the same ethnic group, but just different branches of that group, and that they both originate from there at the same time.

Secondly, genetic studies have shown that the people who became the "Palestinians" are more closely related to the Ashkenazim than they are to "Arabs", and that the Ashkenazim are more closely related to the "Palestinians" than they are to non-Jewish Europeans.

The term "Arab" in most cases, does not refer to a person's genetic ancestry. These days it is mostly used to refer to people who speak Arabic. The Bedoins are more closely related (genetically) to the Arabs, but the other Palestinians have a very similar genetic history to the Ashkenazim.

In other words, there were people in the area who were not Jews when the Arabs showed up in that area. Those people are (some of) the ancestors of the people we know today as "Palestinians". These people predate Arabs in the region.

While it is true that there have been successive influxes of people from other areas over the centuries to that area, the early ancestors of the "Palestinians" and the ancestors of the Ashkenazim, the Sephardim, and the Mizrahim are very probably one and the same, and they probably originated in the area that became known as "Palestine".


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: folk1e
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM

I will probably get shot down here but.......
WHO CARES who did what to whome years ago?
If we all did that the Welsh and Scots would rebell against the English, the Native Americans, Afro Caribeans, Mexicans etc from the European Ameericans.... need I go on?
The point is that history is only usefull if we can learn from it!
It is the future that is important. It is too easy to get bogged down in the minutae of our past and be blinkered to the present.
We are at a crux at the moment, on the one side lies continued conflict with all that that entails (see the link on bio warefare) and the other is the rocky road to peace.
I do not care what the motives of Israil is nor of the Palistinians, what matters is that there IS a chance for peace.

Optomistic old Git that I am


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:08 PM

Today's Palestinians are not all descended from ancient Canaanites and Philistines. Some are converted Jews. Some are descended from Arab families who arrived with various conquerors.

I've never heard or read anything suggesting that the Palestinians have any kind of relationship with the ancient Canaanites and Philistines.

The Palestinians are Arabs. The Arabs first arrived in Israel/Palestine as conquerors in the 7th century A.D.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM

Sorry try here, my links failed above.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HammerPNAS_2000.pdf

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:01 PM

An article by Arthur Koestler many years ago speculated that Ashkenazy Jews are descended from the Khazars, a Central Asian kingdom that converted to Judaism and eventually vanished. This claim has been used by anti-Zionists to argue that the Jews are not a nation, and that Ashkenazy Jews have no rights to Israel. The best evidence indicates that Jews dispersed throughout Europe from Rome. There were Jewish communities in France in the dark ages evidently. Other Ashkenazy Jews are descended from Spanish (Sephardic) Jews who were forced to leave Spain in 1492. Genetic evidence indicates that European Jews are probably closer to Palestinian and Syrian Arabs than to central Asians who are partly descended from the Khazars; see articles here and here for example. In any case, the claims of a people to nationhood are almost never based on genetics or "race." Nobody claims that all the French are descended from ancient Gauls, or that all the British are descended from the Celts and Picts. When Americans talk about "'our' forefathers," the 'our' doesn't usually exclude the generations of immigrants who came after the Mayflower settlers. Today's Palestinians are not all descended from ancient Canaanites and Philistines. Some are converted Jews. Some are descended from Arab families who arrived with various conquerors. Whatever the merits of the genetic arguments, claims that anyone has no right to a country because they are not racially "pure" are racist claims, and identify the people making those claims as racists.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 12:44 PM

Well, that would depend on your premise, Dave. If your premise is that it has been definitivly established that the people who became the Ashkenazi Jews lived in the area of what was once called "Palestine" prior to the people who became known as "Palestinians", then your "facts" are most certainly in dispute. If you read the contents of the last link I provided, about the genetic research being done on both groups of people, you will see some very good challenges to your "facts".

If you are not trying to assert that the Ashkenazim preceeded the "Palestinians" in that area, then we are not in substantial disagreement.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 12:24 PM

CaroleC, The only thing arguable with my links is minutiae. Exact dates and precise borders and names are difficult to corroborate when you are comparing dead languages and details from scripts that don't have a usable date inscribed on them. Our abilities to use carbon dating (which can be decades out)with other scientific methods cannot satisfy minutiae. I challenge you to prove my assertions wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:55 AM

All joking aside though, I would point out (and you can verify this yourself right here in this thread), that when beardedbruce, for instance, has said to me "I disagree", I have not challenged his right to do so. Everyone has a right to disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:34 AM

;-)


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