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BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv

C. Ham 17 Apr 06 - 02:03 PM
The Shambles 17 Apr 06 - 02:05 PM
C. Ham 17 Apr 06 - 02:08 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 17 Apr 06 - 03:00 PM
Arne 17 Apr 06 - 03:08 PM
Barry Finn 17 Apr 06 - 03:09 PM
beardedbruce 17 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM
C. Ham 17 Apr 06 - 03:43 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 17 Apr 06 - 05:12 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 06 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner) 17 Apr 06 - 05:35 PM
Barry Finn 17 Apr 06 - 05:39 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 06 - 05:41 PM
C. Ham 17 Apr 06 - 05:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 06 - 06:23 PM
frogprince 17 Apr 06 - 07:35 PM
Bill D 17 Apr 06 - 08:01 PM
Kweku 18 Apr 06 - 04:08 AM
The Shambles 18 Apr 06 - 05:07 AM
robomatic 18 Apr 06 - 09:45 AM
robomatic 18 Apr 06 - 09:47 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 18 Apr 06 - 11:04 AM
folk1e 18 Apr 06 - 11:11 AM
Paul Burke 18 Apr 06 - 11:15 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 18 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 06 - 01:42 PM
beardedbruce 18 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM
C. Ham 18 Apr 06 - 03:13 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 18 Apr 06 - 07:41 PM
C. Ham 18 Apr 06 - 07:52 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 06 - 08:59 PM
Bill D 18 Apr 06 - 09:09 PM
number 6 18 Apr 06 - 09:16 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Apr 06 - 09:17 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 06 - 09:26 PM
Bill D 18 Apr 06 - 10:04 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 06 - 11:24 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 18 Apr 06 - 11:47 PM
CarolC 19 Apr 06 - 12:02 AM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 06 - 12:04 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 19 Apr 06 - 12:26 AM
CarolC 19 Apr 06 - 12:33 AM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 06 - 09:26 AM
C. Ham 19 Apr 06 - 10:05 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 19 Apr 06 - 10:26 AM
Jack the Sailor 19 Apr 06 - 12:26 PM
CarolC 19 Apr 06 - 12:40 PM
Aaron Aardvark 19 Apr 06 - 12:45 PM
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Subject: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 02:03 PM

A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up in Tel Aviv today murdering at least nine people during the Passover holiday.

Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. There was a rival claim from the Al-Aksa Brigade, the terrorist wing of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement.

Abbas issued a condemnation, but Hamas, which now runs the Palestinian Authority, called the bombing an act of "self-defense."


Full story.

Israel will have no choice but to retaliate which will cause much more death and suffering to the Palestinians. Of course, the Palestinian terrorist organizations, including the Hamas government, know that and welcome that.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 02:05 PM

Israel will have no choice but to retaliate which will cause much more death and suffering to the Palestinians. Of course, the Palestinian terrorist organizations, including the Hamas government, know that and welcome that.

That would seem to be a very good reason not to retaliate.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 02:08 PM

There is no government in the world that can afford not to retaliate against such an attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:00 PM

The Israeli's attack the bomb makers and terrorist group members, and do not intentionally target non combatants (unlike the Palestinians who do)

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Arne
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:08 PM

"An eye for an eye, until everybody's blind...." -- Tommy Sands, "There Were Roses"

Israel used to have this operation of killing the terrorist leaders covertly; IIRC, they used a cell phone bomb to kill one (Hamas, IIRC) leader. Or, like the Eichmann nab, go get the guy and try him in court; maybe better yet as an appropriate solution.

Nowadays, they just send in a Hellfire, and who cares if there's any civilian casualties.

When both sides start saying that everyone's the same; that everyone's a target and this is just "war", then, voila!, everyone is a target down the line, and Tommy Sands's words start to ring true....

(Writing two days after Easter) we show our own humanity, I think, in how we treat even our "enemies".....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:09 PM

"The Israeli's attack the bomb makers and terrorist group members, and do not intentionally target non combatants"

But they will still probably kill a few families or as per usuall kill at least a good number of women & kids in the process. A bit similar to the occupiers of Iraq.

Bush's "Road Map" just has just been become a mine field.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM

Dave,

Are you saying that falafel restaurants are not a military target?
It seems the Palestinians disagree with you...

from CNN:
"A Hamas spokesman, in an interview with Al-Jazeera television, described Monday's attack as an "act of self-defense" against the Israeli occupation.
...."In what was reported to be the year's first suicide bombing in Israel, a bomber attacked the same falafel restaurant on January 19. Police spokesman Mickey Rosenfeld confirmed Monday's attack occurred at that eatery."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/17/telaviv.blast/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:43 PM

But they will still probably kill a few families or as per usuall kill at least a good number of women & kids in the process. A bit similar to the occupiers of Iraq.

One problem the Israelis face in hunting down terrorists are that the terrorists hide themselves among the civilian population. If Israel was less discriminate in its targets, the civilian death toll would be many times what it is.

The point, though, is that the terrorists know that Israel will come after them and that its very possible that innocent civilians will be killed. Terrorist groups want the innocent people they're hiding behind to be killed. That's the main plank of their PR strategy. They hate Israel much more than they care about their own people.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:12 PM

Sometimes the terrorists use non combatants as shields, and create such casualties to enhance their control over media and international public opinion. Most of the officers and soldiers I know in Israel are pretty disciplined people and not yahoo's. I reiterate, Israel does not have a policy of killing non combatants. Does it happen? Yes, unfortunately it does, but not by policy. Palestinians don't care who gets killed, as long as they are all Jews.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:24 PM

The Israeli's attack the bomb makers and terrorist group members, and do not intentionally target non combatants (unlike the Palestinians who do)

This is a false statement, Dave. Some Palestinians (not the Palestinians) target non combatants. And some Israelis target non combatants as well...

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimony_en.asp?full=415

If you hold all Palestinians responsible for the behavior of some Palestinians, you are, in effect, legitimizing exactly the same kind of thinking that suicide bombers use when they hold all Israelis responsible for the behavior of some Israelis.

This way of thinking is wrong, whether you see things from the Israeli perspective, or from the Palestinian perspective.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:35 PM

I was refering to the terrorists who are Palestinian, and their suporters, not arguing semantics with you CaroleC. The Israeli's who attack non combatants are usually non military revenge seekers. I am not condoning their actions either.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:39 PM

They both act the part of terrorists. Problem is that Israel's part is not different from the Palestinians. Alot like calling Native American Indians terrorists then wall them in, fence them out & when they get pissed & start a non governmental action, find some discription that seperates the two fighting factions & cast blame where ever & start killing off the innocents. LIKE WE'RE DOING IN IRAQ.

You can rationalize all you want but when you decide that killing innocents, espically the elderly & the women & children, is worth the cause & the end justifies the means then you have become the emeny you are fighting.

Israel is a terrorist nation & Palestinian is not as long as it's not the military branch of the government that's doing the killing. If it's the government then the 2 are at war, that's a different topic. IMHO that means we (the US) are backers of a terrorist nation ourselves & therefore we should put ourselves on our own watch list.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:41 PM

Regardless, Dave, how we phrase things is important, especially if our words have the potential for spreading hate. I know that is not your goal, but it is important to make the distinction between some members of a group and the group as a whole when assigning blame for things like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:44 PM

it is important to make the distinction between some members of a group and the group as a whole when assigning blame for things like this.

A point on which I wholeheartedly agree with CarolC.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 06:23 PM

All terrorists are allies of the terrorists on the other side, and act in such a way as to urge them on. And basically, that's the idea behind it.

Terririst attacks are carried out with the intention of provoking reprisals which will justify counter-reprisals, and keep the perpetrators in business. And reprisals are carried out in the expectation that they will provoke further attacks that will juistufy furtrher reprisals.

And so it goes on, seemingly without end.

It's all terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 07:35 PM

"You can rationalize all you want but when you decide that killing innocents, espically the elderly & the women & children, is worth the cause & the end justifies the means then you have become the enemy you are fighting"
That says so much of it, Barry; how in hell do our current leaders manage to blind themselves to something so basic.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 08:01 PM

It's going to get pretty crowded in the threads if we document & debate ALL the various attacks and retaliations....there's 3-4 a week these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Kweku
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 04:08 AM

Religious leaders can easily resolve the Israeli-Palestinian problem. They created the problem in the first place and they know exactly what they are doing. Because if all imams, rabbis and pastors go on demonstration through the streets of Jerusalem calling for peace I don't think this problem will persist. They motivate the opposing forces and promise them better living at the end of the struggle.

The rest of us not living in the region will continue to be spectators till maybe we become presidents or VVVIP people.

Bill D -it is important we discuss this kind of news items because the Israel is already talking about the signs of the First World War in this, and if something big breaks out? Well I leave that to our imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 05:07 AM

Religion=good folks doing bad things?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:45 AM

Barry Finn you wrote:


They both act the part of terrorists. Problem is that Israel's part is not different from the Palestinians. Alot like calling Native American Indians terrorists then wall them in, fence them out & when they get pissed & start a non governmental action, find some discription that seperates the two fighting factions & cast blame where ever & start killing off the innocents. LIKE WE'RE DOING IN IRAQ.

You can rationalize all you want but when you decide that killing innocents, espically the elderly & the women & children, is worth the cause & the end justifies the means then you have become the emeny you are fighting.

Israel is a terrorist nation & Palestinian is not as long as it's not the military branch of the government that's doing the killing. If it's the government then the 2 are at war, that's a different topic. IMHO that means we (the US) are backers of a terrorist nation ourselves & therefore we should put ourselves on our own watch list.


Israel is a nation which prosecutes its perceived nations as any other, doing nothing remotely near what other nations have done in their interest into modern times. I think you are rationalizing your preconceived political views. Why not rationalize that Native Americans returned to their lands might try to clear them of squatters even if those squatters had been born on that land. It would not change the Native Americans' view of their overall right to those lands.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:47 AM

Sorry, that was not my clearest post. In any case, I meant to write "Israel is a nation which responds to its perceived 'enemies'....

and I was trying to compare Israelis to Native Americans who somehow had the power and temerity to return to their lands as a dominant force. This is as good a 'rationalization' as any other.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:04 AM

I like the expression "who argues over who owns this land, is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on" The modern state of Israel was forged in the ovens of Belsen, Auschwitz et al..
They have been the most persecuted race on earth, ownership of lands and property denied them and taken by force of arms. Hunted and enslaved, killed and used for sport. Driven by desperation in the twentieth century they took back a little of what was stolen from them. Those nations and races that condem them are the very ones that persecuted them for years. You reap what you sow, and we are now faced with this fact, Israel will not surrender or give up any more land. No big surprise to those that saw what we have done to them over the course of history. If the Palestinians and arab nations cannot live with this, then there will never be any chance for peace in the middle east.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: folk1e
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:11 AM

Is there a moral diferance between Israel taking land and water from Palestine, economically dominating them into servitude and the palistinians who decide there is no alternative and use violence against innocent Israilis? Neather are justified!
Israil should however be able to look to it's past and feel a collective sense of shame! as shold their backers!
On an unusualy positive note it looks like Israel will not respond with violence.Well done!


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:15 AM

Sadly, the people the Israelis took the land from were not the people who had treated them so badly through history. It wasn't the Arabs and other Moslems who were the main persecutors (though persecutions did hasppen); it was the Christians. In fact, the Ottoman Empire and the North African states gave refuge to many Jews driven out of Spain, Italy, Russia etc. and Jewish-Moslem relationships did not become the nightmare they are today, until Christian romantics like Balfour encouraged them to take land from the Palestinians (many of whom had fought on the British side during WWI- see Lawrence of Arabia).

If you say to the Palestinians "Do as we say or there will be no peace", they'll reply, "There's no peace for us, and we'll make sure there's none for you either".


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM

Well Paul, the history books I read tell me the land was fought over a long time before Christ came on earth, but I guess you read what your own agenda dictates.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:42 PM

Dave, are you using the Old Testament as your history source? Because if you are, you seem to be overlooking the part in the Old Testament that says that the land they were driven from originally was not their own. The Old Testament says that they stole that land from people who were there before them, committing genocide in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM

"Palestinian ministers who live in East Jerusalem carry blue Israeli identity cards and enjoy all the benefits of Israeli citizens, including subsidized health care. Those benefits were extended to Palestinians living in East Jerusalem when Israel captured the area during the 1967 Mideast War and annexed it."


And what did the Arabs do with the Jewish settlers in the West Bank when THEY controlled it from 1948 to 1967? Or in Jerusalem?

Perhaps the greatest fear of the Palestinians is that they will be treated now as they have treated the Jews in the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 03:13 PM

CarolC,

That's not what the Old Testament, which is a fundamental text to Jews, Christians and Moslems, says. According to the Old Testament, the land was given to the Hebrews by God.

BTW, the Arabs -- conquerors themselves -- only first arrived in modern day Israel and Palestine in the 7th Century A.D., approximately 3-4,000 years after the Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 07:41 PM

Well, this incident and this thread bring to mind a comment made by a political writer interviewed a while back on NPR (sorry--do not recall name).

In speaking of the Israeli policy of withholding the Tax collections from the Palestinian Authority they were creating a problem. The polikcy should be---his position---turn over the taxes with the proviso that should there be any violence on their (Hamas or others) part that ends it---no funds and retaliation follows.

Frankly---sounds like a good plan to me and this only proves that is what has to be done.   PLO condemns attack and Hamas relishes it.

Legitimate reason now for forcing them into bancruptcy if they do not stop and also condemn the actions of these bombers.   Hamas has not shown that is a legitimate governing body. Moreover, it has shown itself to be a legitimately elected Murder Inc.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 07:52 PM

The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which is part of Fatah, the corrupt Arafat's PLO faction, is now threatening terrorist actions against Jews anywhere in the world.

Story from The Telegraph.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 08:59 PM

According to the Old Testament, the land was given to the Hebrews by God.

It also says that their God instructed them to kill all of the men, women, and children, as well as their livestock. That's genocide even if it's God who tells you to do it.

And Hitler believed his God told him to commit genocide as well. Anyone can claim it's their "God" who tells them to commit genocide. In fact, it seems that most of them do.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:09 PM

and as usual, a notice about a particular event soon degenerates into a debate about "who was here first" and "who threw the first punch".

None of which addresses the problem of 'how to stop'.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:16 PM

Good line Bill !

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:17 PM

True enough C Ham - the Old Testament talks about God as givingthe country to the descendents of Abraham. It also graphically describes the genocide of the previous inhabitants. For example:

"They took Jericho. All thhat was in it thye slew, sparing neither man nor woman, neither youth nior age; even cattle and sheep anmd asses were put to the sword."

"So Josue conquered all the hill coujtry ofthe south, and teh plains, and the foothills...with the Lord God of Israel for his warrent, he left no trace of the folk who lived there, but killed every living thing that was to be found between Cades-Barne and Gaza."

None of this of course is any kind of justification for Palestinian decendants of Abraham seeking to carry out a modern day version of this on Jewish descendants of Abraham - but it is worth keeping it in mind when people try to use the Old Testament in a literal way as a kind of title deed that extinguishes the rights of other people to live in the place where they belong.

It is impossible to undo the injustices of history - Jews, Gylsies, Palestinians, Native Americans, and how many countless more. What is possible at best to to undo some of the consequences upon the people who have been the victims of these injustices but who have survived - and to try to do so without creating fresh injustices and fresh victims, which is how it so often works out.

If it is possible for the Israeli government to break the recurring pattern of reprisal and counter reprisal which has caused the deaths of thousands of innocents on both sides, it would mean that the deaths of these latest innocent victims could have some result other than further bloodshed, in a continuing cycle of violence. We can only hold our breath in the hope thay this may be a turning point.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

Valid point, Bill. But as long as people continue to use their religious texts in order to make excuses for bad behavior... well I don't need to tell you what's going to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

My last was for Bill D.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:26 PM

Excellent post, McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 10:04 PM

Indeed, Carol..but as long as people use their religious texts AND highly edited and slanted versions of history to make excuses for bad behavior it will be even worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:24 PM

Totally agree with you on that one, Bill (D).


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:47 PM

Actually CarolC I was not refering to the Bible at all. Your agenda is to bash Christianity using any and all issues on this forum to further your agenda. In my statement I clearly said history books, but you wish to hijack this into your issues, and I do not care to debate anything with someone so clearly biased and off subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:02 AM

I think your agenda is to bash people who disagree with you by telling them what their agendas are, Dave.

I'm not bashing Christians. I'm married to a Christian. Plus, the religious texts of all of the three major monotheistic world religions (Judeo/Christian/Islamic) embrace the version of history that is postulated in the Old Testament. I don't have any interest in bashing any of those religions.

So what are your sources, Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:04 AM

Dave,

Carol didn't even mention Christianity.

Would you care to point out which history books you read and how these history books are independent of the Old Testament, especially please point out how they contradict the stories of genocide that MacGrath and Carol mentioned?

Thanks, I love learning new things.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:26 AM

Jack, pop down to your local library mate, there are all kinds of books there, and people who will help you look for the relevant ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:33 AM

Perhaps the greatest fear of the Palestinians is that they will be treated now as they have treated the Jews in the past.

The greatest fear of the Palestinians is that they will continue to be driven from their homes and that their homes and orchards will continue to be bulldozed and bombed, as has been happening since Israel took control of the West Bank (and East Jerusalem) in 1967, until none of them have any place to live. And also that they will continue to be fenced in and imprisoned in tiny bantustans with no access to the rest of the world, or to commerce or any other benefits of civilization. Did the Palestinians do this to the Jews of the West Bank prior to 1967, beardedbruce?

Are you aware, beardedbruce, that there are, right now, as we speak, Jews living inside Palestinian villages, not in settlements, who are not in any way harmed by their fellow villagers? And that the Palestinians welcome them there in those villages? And that some Palestinians even marry Jews? These are facts. And I would be willing to bet that if you went to those Palestinian villages and you treated the people there like your friends (and not as your eternal enemies), they would welcome you as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 09:26 AM

Dave,

I am aware that there are a lot of books in the library. What I am not aware of are the history books which you mentioned. I'm sure you understand that I do not want to have a librarian think me a fool. I can hardly be expected to just walk into a library and demand to see one of the history books that "Dave (The Ancient Mariner) was talking about. I sincerely doubt that the librarian will know who you are much more than what you are talking about. So please, if you will, give me the title and/or author of just one of these books so that I can find it for myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 10:05 AM

Hitler believed his God told him to commit genocide as well.

Perhaps you could point us to a legitimate reference for this claim.

As to your use of biblical references to lay claim to genocide by the Jews in Ancient Israel, it is generally understood by all (except religious literalists) that the biblical stories cannot be taken as historical fact. In point of fact, any "genocide" by ancient Hebrews can probably not compare to the genocide committed by white Americans against the Indians in paving the way for your comfortable home.

I'll also note that the media is full of stories today about how the Israeli government is restraining itself from a military response to this latest attack.

Read the story.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 10:26 AM

Jack mate, you really do need to learn to use Google. I have read quite a few books and papers in University and cannot remember them all. I really hate recommending specific books to anyone but you might start with these.

1: The Palestinian People (Baruch Kimmerling)
2: The Original Arab The Bedouin (Philip K Hitti)
3: A History Of The Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Mark Tessler)
4: Revolt in the Desert (T.E. Lawrence) <---(I'm related to him btw)

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:26 PM

Don't leave me hanging here. Tell me which of these books describe history not gleaned from the old testament and how that contridicts what MacGrath and Carol were saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:40 PM

Perhaps you could point us to a legitimate reference for this claim.

Ok. I'll have a look around.

As to your use of biblical references to lay claim to genocide by the Jews in Ancient Israel, it is generally understood by all (except religious literalists) that the biblical stories cannot be taken as historical fact.

First of all, I do not make this claim. In fact, I don't happen to believe that the Old Testament is a reliable source for the history of the Middle East. But I also don't happen to believe that "God" gave the ancient Hebrews that land, either. However, if people are going to use the Old Testament (and the Torah) as their justification for their claim (birthright) to Eretz Israel, they also have to accept the other things the Old Testament (and the Torah) has to say about it. You can't have it both ways, you know.

In point of fact, any "genocide" by ancient Hebrews can probably not compare to the genocide committed by white Americans against the Indians in paving the way for your comfortable home.

This is speculation, but you are probably right. There can be no justification for the genocide committed by the European invaders of North and South America against the indigenous people. I certainly do not make any attempts to justify it.

I'll also note that the media is full of stories today about how the Israeli government is restraining itself from a military response to this latest attack.

I congratulate the government of Israel on the restraint they are showing in this instance.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Aaron Aardvark
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:45 PM

Also some interesting stuff (including books, UN papers, etc.) by Gideon Weigert about Palestinian life under Israeli occupation.

As Carol said, let us be thankful for restraint concerning this atrocity.

Aaron


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