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BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv

C. Ham 17 Apr 06 - 02:03 PM
The Shambles 17 Apr 06 - 02:05 PM
C. Ham 17 Apr 06 - 02:08 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 17 Apr 06 - 03:00 PM
Arne 17 Apr 06 - 03:08 PM
Barry Finn 17 Apr 06 - 03:09 PM
beardedbruce 17 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM
C. Ham 17 Apr 06 - 03:43 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 17 Apr 06 - 05:12 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 06 - 05:24 PM
GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner) 17 Apr 06 - 05:35 PM
Barry Finn 17 Apr 06 - 05:39 PM
CarolC 17 Apr 06 - 05:41 PM
C. Ham 17 Apr 06 - 05:44 PM
McGrath of Harlow 17 Apr 06 - 06:23 PM
frogprince 17 Apr 06 - 07:35 PM
Bill D 17 Apr 06 - 08:01 PM
Kweku 18 Apr 06 - 04:08 AM
The Shambles 18 Apr 06 - 05:07 AM
robomatic 18 Apr 06 - 09:45 AM
robomatic 18 Apr 06 - 09:47 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 18 Apr 06 - 11:04 AM
folk1e 18 Apr 06 - 11:11 AM
Paul Burke 18 Apr 06 - 11:15 AM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 18 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 06 - 01:42 PM
beardedbruce 18 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM
C. Ham 18 Apr 06 - 03:13 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 18 Apr 06 - 07:41 PM
C. Ham 18 Apr 06 - 07:52 PM
CarolC 18 Apr 06 - 08:59 PM
Bill D 18 Apr 06 - 09:09 PM
number 6 18 Apr 06 - 09:16 PM
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Subject: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 02:03 PM

A Palestinian suicide bomber blew himself up in Tel Aviv today murdering at least nine people during the Passover holiday.

Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack. There was a rival claim from the Al-Aksa Brigade, the terrorist wing of Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas' Fatah movement.

Abbas issued a condemnation, but Hamas, which now runs the Palestinian Authority, called the bombing an act of "self-defense."


Full story.

Israel will have no choice but to retaliate which will cause much more death and suffering to the Palestinians. Of course, the Palestinian terrorist organizations, including the Hamas government, know that and welcome that.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: The Shambles
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 02:05 PM

Israel will have no choice but to retaliate which will cause much more death and suffering to the Palestinians. Of course, the Palestinian terrorist organizations, including the Hamas government, know that and welcome that.

That would seem to be a very good reason not to retaliate.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 02:08 PM

There is no government in the world that can afford not to retaliate against such an attack.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:00 PM

The Israeli's attack the bomb makers and terrorist group members, and do not intentionally target non combatants (unlike the Palestinians who do)

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Arne
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:08 PM

"An eye for an eye, until everybody's blind...." -- Tommy Sands, "There Were Roses"

Israel used to have this operation of killing the terrorist leaders covertly; IIRC, they used a cell phone bomb to kill one (Hamas, IIRC) leader. Or, like the Eichmann nab, go get the guy and try him in court; maybe better yet as an appropriate solution.

Nowadays, they just send in a Hellfire, and who cares if there's any civilian casualties.

When both sides start saying that everyone's the same; that everyone's a target and this is just "war", then, voila!, everyone is a target down the line, and Tommy Sands's words start to ring true....

(Writing two days after Easter) we show our own humanity, I think, in how we treat even our "enemies".....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:09 PM

"The Israeli's attack the bomb makers and terrorist group members, and do not intentionally target non combatants"

But they will still probably kill a few families or as per usuall kill at least a good number of women & kids in the process. A bit similar to the occupiers of Iraq.

Bush's "Road Map" just has just been become a mine field.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM

Dave,

Are you saying that falafel restaurants are not a military target?
It seems the Palestinians disagree with you...

from CNN:
"A Hamas spokesman, in an interview with Al-Jazeera television, described Monday's attack as an "act of self-defense" against the Israeli occupation.
...."In what was reported to be the year's first suicide bombing in Israel, a bomber attacked the same falafel restaurant on January 19. Police spokesman Mickey Rosenfeld confirmed Monday's attack occurred at that eatery."

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/17/telaviv.blast/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 03:43 PM

But they will still probably kill a few families or as per usuall kill at least a good number of women & kids in the process. A bit similar to the occupiers of Iraq.

One problem the Israelis face in hunting down terrorists are that the terrorists hide themselves among the civilian population. If Israel was less discriminate in its targets, the civilian death toll would be many times what it is.

The point, though, is that the terrorists know that Israel will come after them and that its very possible that innocent civilians will be killed. Terrorist groups want the innocent people they're hiding behind to be killed. That's the main plank of their PR strategy. They hate Israel much more than they care about their own people.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:12 PM

Sometimes the terrorists use non combatants as shields, and create such casualties to enhance their control over media and international public opinion. Most of the officers and soldiers I know in Israel are pretty disciplined people and not yahoo's. I reiterate, Israel does not have a policy of killing non combatants. Does it happen? Yes, unfortunately it does, but not by policy. Palestinians don't care who gets killed, as long as they are all Jews.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:24 PM

The Israeli's attack the bomb makers and terrorist group members, and do not intentionally target non combatants (unlike the Palestinians who do)

This is a false statement, Dave. Some Palestinians (not the Palestinians) target non combatants. And some Israelis target non combatants as well...

http://www.breakingthesilence.org.il/testimony_en.asp?full=415

If you hold all Palestinians responsible for the behavior of some Palestinians, you are, in effect, legitimizing exactly the same kind of thinking that suicide bombers use when they hold all Israelis responsible for the behavior of some Israelis.

This way of thinking is wrong, whether you see things from the Israeli perspective, or from the Palestinian perspective.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:35 PM

I was refering to the terrorists who are Palestinian, and their suporters, not arguing semantics with you CaroleC. The Israeli's who attack non combatants are usually non military revenge seekers. I am not condoning their actions either.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Barry Finn
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:39 PM

They both act the part of terrorists. Problem is that Israel's part is not different from the Palestinians. Alot like calling Native American Indians terrorists then wall them in, fence them out & when they get pissed & start a non governmental action, find some discription that seperates the two fighting factions & cast blame where ever & start killing off the innocents. LIKE WE'RE DOING IN IRAQ.

You can rationalize all you want but when you decide that killing innocents, espically the elderly & the women & children, is worth the cause & the end justifies the means then you have become the emeny you are fighting.

Israel is a terrorist nation & Palestinian is not as long as it's not the military branch of the government that's doing the killing. If it's the government then the 2 are at war, that's a different topic. IMHO that means we (the US) are backers of a terrorist nation ourselves & therefore we should put ourselves on our own watch list.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:41 PM

Regardless, Dave, how we phrase things is important, especially if our words have the potential for spreading hate. I know that is not your goal, but it is important to make the distinction between some members of a group and the group as a whole when assigning blame for things like this.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 05:44 PM

it is important to make the distinction between some members of a group and the group as a whole when assigning blame for things like this.

A point on which I wholeheartedly agree with CarolC.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 06:23 PM

All terrorists are allies of the terrorists on the other side, and act in such a way as to urge them on. And basically, that's the idea behind it.

Terririst attacks are carried out with the intention of provoking reprisals which will justify counter-reprisals, and keep the perpetrators in business. And reprisals are carried out in the expectation that they will provoke further attacks that will juistufy furtrher reprisals.

And so it goes on, seemingly without end.

It's all terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: frogprince
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 07:35 PM

"You can rationalize all you want but when you decide that killing innocents, espically the elderly & the women & children, is worth the cause & the end justifies the means then you have become the enemy you are fighting"
That says so much of it, Barry; how in hell do our current leaders manage to blind themselves to something so basic.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Apr 06 - 08:01 PM

It's going to get pretty crowded in the threads if we document & debate ALL the various attacks and retaliations....there's 3-4 a week these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Kweku
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 04:08 AM

Religious leaders can easily resolve the Israeli-Palestinian problem. They created the problem in the first place and they know exactly what they are doing. Because if all imams, rabbis and pastors go on demonstration through the streets of Jerusalem calling for peace I don't think this problem will persist. They motivate the opposing forces and promise them better living at the end of the struggle.

The rest of us not living in the region will continue to be spectators till maybe we become presidents or VVVIP people.

Bill D -it is important we discuss this kind of news items because the Israel is already talking about the signs of the First World War in this, and if something big breaks out? Well I leave that to our imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: The Shambles
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 05:07 AM

Religion=good folks doing bad things?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:45 AM

Barry Finn you wrote:


They both act the part of terrorists. Problem is that Israel's part is not different from the Palestinians. Alot like calling Native American Indians terrorists then wall them in, fence them out & when they get pissed & start a non governmental action, find some discription that seperates the two fighting factions & cast blame where ever & start killing off the innocents. LIKE WE'RE DOING IN IRAQ.

You can rationalize all you want but when you decide that killing innocents, espically the elderly & the women & children, is worth the cause & the end justifies the means then you have become the emeny you are fighting.

Israel is a terrorist nation & Palestinian is not as long as it's not the military branch of the government that's doing the killing. If it's the government then the 2 are at war, that's a different topic. IMHO that means we (the US) are backers of a terrorist nation ourselves & therefore we should put ourselves on our own watch list.


Israel is a nation which prosecutes its perceived nations as any other, doing nothing remotely near what other nations have done in their interest into modern times. I think you are rationalizing your preconceived political views. Why not rationalize that Native Americans returned to their lands might try to clear them of squatters even if those squatters had been born on that land. It would not change the Native Americans' view of their overall right to those lands.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:47 AM

Sorry, that was not my clearest post. In any case, I meant to write "Israel is a nation which responds to its perceived 'enemies'....

and I was trying to compare Israelis to Native Americans who somehow had the power and temerity to return to their lands as a dominant force. This is as good a 'rationalization' as any other.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:04 AM

I like the expression "who argues over who owns this land, is like two fleas arguing over who owns the dog they live on" The modern state of Israel was forged in the ovens of Belsen, Auschwitz et al..
They have been the most persecuted race on earth, ownership of lands and property denied them and taken by force of arms. Hunted and enslaved, killed and used for sport. Driven by desperation in the twentieth century they took back a little of what was stolen from them. Those nations and races that condem them are the very ones that persecuted them for years. You reap what you sow, and we are now faced with this fact, Israel will not surrender or give up any more land. No big surprise to those that saw what we have done to them over the course of history. If the Palestinians and arab nations cannot live with this, then there will never be any chance for peace in the middle east.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: folk1e
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:11 AM

Is there a moral diferance between Israel taking land and water from Palestine, economically dominating them into servitude and the palistinians who decide there is no alternative and use violence against innocent Israilis? Neather are justified!
Israil should however be able to look to it's past and feel a collective sense of shame! as shold their backers!
On an unusualy positive note it looks like Israel will not respond with violence.Well done!


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Paul Burke
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:15 AM

Sadly, the people the Israelis took the land from were not the people who had treated them so badly through history. It wasn't the Arabs and other Moslems who were the main persecutors (though persecutions did hasppen); it was the Christians. In fact, the Ottoman Empire and the North African states gave refuge to many Jews driven out of Spain, Italy, Russia etc. and Jewish-Moslem relationships did not become the nightmare they are today, until Christian romantics like Balfour encouraged them to take land from the Palestinians (many of whom had fought on the British side during WWI- see Lawrence of Arabia).

If you say to the Palestinians "Do as we say or there will be no peace", they'll reply, "There's no peace for us, and we'll make sure there's none for you either".


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM

Well Paul, the history books I read tell me the land was fought over a long time before Christ came on earth, but I guess you read what your own agenda dictates.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 01:42 PM

Dave, are you using the Old Testament as your history source? Because if you are, you seem to be overlooking the part in the Old Testament that says that the land they were driven from originally was not their own. The Old Testament says that they stole that land from people who were there before them, committing genocide in the process.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 03:12 PM

"Palestinian ministers who live in East Jerusalem carry blue Israeli identity cards and enjoy all the benefits of Israeli citizens, including subsidized health care. Those benefits were extended to Palestinians living in East Jerusalem when Israel captured the area during the 1967 Mideast War and annexed it."


And what did the Arabs do with the Jewish settlers in the West Bank when THEY controlled it from 1948 to 1967? Or in Jerusalem?

Perhaps the greatest fear of the Palestinians is that they will be treated now as they have treated the Jews in the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 03:13 PM

CarolC,

That's not what the Old Testament, which is a fundamental text to Jews, Christians and Moslems, says. According to the Old Testament, the land was given to the Hebrews by God.

BTW, the Arabs -- conquerors themselves -- only first arrived in modern day Israel and Palestine in the 7th Century A.D., approximately 3-4,000 years after the Jews.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 07:41 PM

Well, this incident and this thread bring to mind a comment made by a political writer interviewed a while back on NPR (sorry--do not recall name).

In speaking of the Israeli policy of withholding the Tax collections from the Palestinian Authority they were creating a problem. The polikcy should be---his position---turn over the taxes with the proviso that should there be any violence on their (Hamas or others) part that ends it---no funds and retaliation follows.

Frankly---sounds like a good plan to me and this only proves that is what has to be done.   PLO condemns attack and Hamas relishes it.

Legitimate reason now for forcing them into bancruptcy if they do not stop and also condemn the actions of these bombers.   Hamas has not shown that is a legitimate governing body. Moreover, it has shown itself to be a legitimately elected Murder Inc.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 07:52 PM

The al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades, which is part of Fatah, the corrupt Arafat's PLO faction, is now threatening terrorist actions against Jews anywhere in the world.

Story from The Telegraph.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 08:59 PM

According to the Old Testament, the land was given to the Hebrews by God.

It also says that their God instructed them to kill all of the men, women, and children, as well as their livestock. That's genocide even if it's God who tells you to do it.

And Hitler believed his God told him to commit genocide as well. Anyone can claim it's their "God" who tells them to commit genocide. In fact, it seems that most of them do.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:09 PM

and as usual, a notice about a particular event soon degenerates into a debate about "who was here first" and "who threw the first punch".

None of which addresses the problem of 'how to stop'.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: number 6
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:16 PM

Good line Bill !

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:17 PM

True enough C Ham - the Old Testament talks about God as givingthe country to the descendents of Abraham. It also graphically describes the genocide of the previous inhabitants. For example:

"They took Jericho. All thhat was in it thye slew, sparing neither man nor woman, neither youth nior age; even cattle and sheep anmd asses were put to the sword."

"So Josue conquered all the hill coujtry ofthe south, and teh plains, and the foothills...with the Lord God of Israel for his warrent, he left no trace of the folk who lived there, but killed every living thing that was to be found between Cades-Barne and Gaza."

None of this of course is any kind of justification for Palestinian decendants of Abraham seeking to carry out a modern day version of this on Jewish descendants of Abraham - but it is worth keeping it in mind when people try to use the Old Testament in a literal way as a kind of title deed that extinguishes the rights of other people to live in the place where they belong.

It is impossible to undo the injustices of history - Jews, Gylsies, Palestinians, Native Americans, and how many countless more. What is possible at best to to undo some of the consequences upon the people who have been the victims of these injustices but who have survived - and to try to do so without creating fresh injustices and fresh victims, which is how it so often works out.

If it is possible for the Israeli government to break the recurring pattern of reprisal and counter reprisal which has caused the deaths of thousands of innocents on both sides, it would mean that the deaths of these latest innocent victims could have some result other than further bloodshed, in a continuing cycle of violence. We can only hold our breath in the hope thay this may be a turning point.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

Valid point, Bill. But as long as people continue to use their religious texts in order to make excuses for bad behavior... well I don't need to tell you what's going to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:23 PM

My last was for Bill D.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 09:26 PM

Excellent post, McGrath.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 10:04 PM

Indeed, Carol..but as long as people use their religious texts AND highly edited and slanted versions of history to make excuses for bad behavior it will be even worse.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:24 PM

Totally agree with you on that one, Bill (D).


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 18 Apr 06 - 11:47 PM

Actually CarolC I was not refering to the Bible at all. Your agenda is to bash Christianity using any and all issues on this forum to further your agenda. In my statement I clearly said history books, but you wish to hijack this into your issues, and I do not care to debate anything with someone so clearly biased and off subject.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:02 AM

I think your agenda is to bash people who disagree with you by telling them what their agendas are, Dave.

I'm not bashing Christians. I'm married to a Christian. Plus, the religious texts of all of the three major monotheistic world religions (Judeo/Christian/Islamic) embrace the version of history that is postulated in the Old Testament. I don't have any interest in bashing any of those religions.

So what are your sources, Dave?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:04 AM

Dave,

Carol didn't even mention Christianity.

Would you care to point out which history books you read and how these history books are independent of the Old Testament, especially please point out how they contradict the stories of genocide that MacGrath and Carol mentioned?

Thanks, I love learning new things.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:26 AM

Jack, pop down to your local library mate, there are all kinds of books there, and people who will help you look for the relevant ones.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:33 AM

Perhaps the greatest fear of the Palestinians is that they will be treated now as they have treated the Jews in the past.

The greatest fear of the Palestinians is that they will continue to be driven from their homes and that their homes and orchards will continue to be bulldozed and bombed, as has been happening since Israel took control of the West Bank (and East Jerusalem) in 1967, until none of them have any place to live. And also that they will continue to be fenced in and imprisoned in tiny bantustans with no access to the rest of the world, or to commerce or any other benefits of civilization. Did the Palestinians do this to the Jews of the West Bank prior to 1967, beardedbruce?

Are you aware, beardedbruce, that there are, right now, as we speak, Jews living inside Palestinian villages, not in settlements, who are not in any way harmed by their fellow villagers? And that the Palestinians welcome them there in those villages? And that some Palestinians even marry Jews? These are facts. And I would be willing to bet that if you went to those Palestinian villages and you treated the people there like your friends (and not as your eternal enemies), they would welcome you as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 09:26 AM

Dave,

I am aware that there are a lot of books in the library. What I am not aware of are the history books which you mentioned. I'm sure you understand that I do not want to have a librarian think me a fool. I can hardly be expected to just walk into a library and demand to see one of the history books that "Dave (The Ancient Mariner) was talking about. I sincerely doubt that the librarian will know who you are much more than what you are talking about. So please, if you will, give me the title and/or author of just one of these books so that I can find it for myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 10:05 AM

Hitler believed his God told him to commit genocide as well.

Perhaps you could point us to a legitimate reference for this claim.

As to your use of biblical references to lay claim to genocide by the Jews in Ancient Israel, it is generally understood by all (except religious literalists) that the biblical stories cannot be taken as historical fact. In point of fact, any "genocide" by ancient Hebrews can probably not compare to the genocide committed by white Americans against the Indians in paving the way for your comfortable home.

I'll also note that the media is full of stories today about how the Israeli government is restraining itself from a military response to this latest attack.

Read the story.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 10:26 AM

Jack mate, you really do need to learn to use Google. I have read quite a few books and papers in University and cannot remember them all. I really hate recommending specific books to anyone but you might start with these.

1: The Palestinian People (Baruch Kimmerling)
2: The Original Arab The Bedouin (Philip K Hitti)
3: A History Of The Israeli Palestinian Conflict (Mark Tessler)
4: Revolt in the Desert (T.E. Lawrence) <---(I'm related to him btw)

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:26 PM

Don't leave me hanging here. Tell me which of these books describe history not gleaned from the old testament and how that contridicts what MacGrath and Carol were saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:40 PM

Perhaps you could point us to a legitimate reference for this claim.

Ok. I'll have a look around.

As to your use of biblical references to lay claim to genocide by the Jews in Ancient Israel, it is generally understood by all (except religious literalists) that the biblical stories cannot be taken as historical fact.

First of all, I do not make this claim. In fact, I don't happen to believe that the Old Testament is a reliable source for the history of the Middle East. But I also don't happen to believe that "God" gave the ancient Hebrews that land, either. However, if people are going to use the Old Testament (and the Torah) as their justification for their claim (birthright) to Eretz Israel, they also have to accept the other things the Old Testament (and the Torah) has to say about it. You can't have it both ways, you know.

In point of fact, any "genocide" by ancient Hebrews can probably not compare to the genocide committed by white Americans against the Indians in paving the way for your comfortable home.

This is speculation, but you are probably right. There can be no justification for the genocide committed by the European invaders of North and South America against the indigenous people. I certainly do not make any attempts to justify it.

I'll also note that the media is full of stories today about how the Israeli government is restraining itself from a military response to this latest attack.

I congratulate the government of Israel on the restraint they are showing in this instance.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Aaron Aardvark
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:45 PM

Also some interesting stuff (including books, UN papers, etc.) by Gideon Weigert about Palestinian life under Israeli occupation.

As Carol said, let us be thankful for restraint concerning this atrocity.

Aaron


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:54 PM

Here you go...

"I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."

http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/quotes_hitler.html

The above linked site is an attempt to make a case that Hitler was a Christian. Lest I be accused of "Christian bashing", here is the quote in a site that tries to make the case that Hitler was not a Christian...

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2002/102/52.0.html


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 12:54 PM

History is usually written by the victors & Bibles are usually written by those who have a telephone connection to their Gods. To discuss the ancient borders & who crossed what & who stole from whom is useless. It would be more helpful to dicuss the generations that are still alive or in recent memory.

To my way of thinking their is no excuse that can condon blood letting. There is no excuse to oppress a people or to annex the land of another. There is no excuse to be the cause of misery no matter the cause. There is no excuse that the ends can justify any type of means that includes the death of innocents. NEVER!

To treat the symptoms by administering death, terror & oppression does nothing to help anyone's cause. There's a need to go back to the cause & IMHO no one's doing that anywhere. Some may find doing that might not be in their best interests either & that may be where some of the problems lay. Some where some one is not looking at all the truths much less talk about them.

Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:24 PM

There is no excuse to oppress a people or to annex the land of another. There is no excuse to be the cause of misery no matter the cause. There is no excuse that the ends can justify any type of means that includes the death of innocents. NEVER!

Thus sayeth Barry Finn, a resident of New Hampshire, a state built on land stolen from the Indians and whose Indian population now totals just 1/5th of 1% of the population.

BTW, New Hampshire is one of the most lilly white of all states with an African American population that totals just 7/10ths of 1% of the population.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 01:45 PM

Yeah, I heard that was Barry's fault.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:07 PM

I'm not suggesting it's his fault. What I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of attacking Israel, a small country facing terrorism on a daily basis, while living off the fruits of similar or worse expoloitation to what the person is attacking.

My house too is on land that once belonged to the Indians.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:22 PM

Or, we could maybe learn from our mistakes and try to do better now that we know better.

If the government of Israel would learn from the mistakes of others (or even from it's own mistakes), Israelis would not be facing daily threats of terrorism.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:39 PM

C Ham,

At some point the colonizing and oppression has to stop for there to be peace. Israel seems to want it to stop for everyone else, after they are done. Most others would like to see it ended now. The Palestinians have seen what happened to the Native Americans, the Native Australians and others, that is one reason they fight back so hard and that many of them feel that extraordinary measures are justified. I personally don't think that it is but I see that the Israeli government, the settlers and IDF have done much more damage than all of the suicide bombers have. I can't condemn either side without condemning both.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 02:50 PM

Jack, This whole thing stems from me stating historical fact, that the land was fought over before Christianity had an effect. The books I suggested give a balanced but detailed overview of the entire history of the area; and the roots of the modern Arab Israeli conflict. Start reading and draw your own conclusions..

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:02 PM

Dave,

It is my understanding that there is little independent historical verification of the biblical conquest of Israel. You were acting as if you knew of some. If you do know of some I would still like to know. But if you haven't researched the sources for these books, you have no basis for the assertions you have made. Yes. I could read T.E. Lawrence's opinions on the matter, but since I have already read "Seven Pillars" I doubt that I'll find what you have suggested in the books you have mentioned.

I guess you think it is fair to make a dubious assertion then back it up by telling a skeptic to go find the answer himself. To me that just tells me how much weight to give your next assertion.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:09 PM

Are you aware, CarolC, that there are, right now, as we speak, Moslems living inside Israeli villages, not in settlements, who are not in any way harmed by their fellow villagers? And that the Israelis welcome them there in those villages? And that some Israelis even marry Moslems? These are facts. And I would be willing to bet that if Palestinians went to those Israeli villages and the Palestinians treated the people there like their friends (and not as their eternal enemies), the Israelis would welcome them as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:27 PM

Sigh: Have you also read analysed and translated versions of...

The Ethiopian Kebra Nagast
The Writings of Nicolaus Of Damascus
Artapanas
Philo of Alexandria
Josephus

Various inscriptions and writings of the Egyptians, Moabite, Assyrian and Babylonians?

You have a long way to go to get copies of those, but they may become generally available online soon. Most things seem to be reproduced electronically, but you usually have to subscribe to the electronic formats of major universities to be able to get access to them.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 03:37 PM

Sigh, Sigh.

Have you read them? If so, what do they say?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:04 PM

Just for you mate.

The archeological records indicate that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana'anite peoples. Some time between about 1800 and 1500 B.C. Semitic people called Hebrews (Haiparu) left Mesopotamia and settled in Canaan. Canaan was settled by different tribes including Semitic peoples, Hittites, and later Philistine seafarers who are thought to have arrived from Mycenae, or to be part of the ancient Greek peoples that also settled Mycenae. According to the Talmud, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan. It is estimated that king David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Jordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD. The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 or 721 B.C. The Babylonians conquered Judah around 586 B.C. About 50 years later, the Persian king Cyrus conquered Babylonia. Cyrus allowed a group of Jews from Babylonia to rebuild Jerusalem and settle in it. However, a large number of Jews remained in Babylonia, forming the first Jewish Diaspora. The Persians ruled the land from about 530 to 331 B.C. Alexander the Great then conquered the Persian Empire. After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., his generals divided the empire. One of these generals, Seleucus and his successors, founded a dynasty that gained control of much of Palestine until about 200 B.C. At first, the new rulers, called Seleucids, allowed the practice of Judaism. But later, one of the kings, Antiochus IV, tried to prohibit it. In 167 B.C., the Jews revolted under the leadership of the Maccabeans and either drove the Seleucids out of Palestine or at least established a large degree of autonomy, forming a kingdom with its capital in Jerusalem. The kingdom received Roman "protection" when Judah Maccabee was made a "friend of the Roman senate and people" in 164 B.C. according to the records of Roman historians. The rest is very well documented from this point in history, and you may find it very interesting to read.

Now does that satisfy you?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: robomatic
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:11 PM

Nice effort, I'd be curious as to whether your use of the identifier "Palestine" is appropriate to the era, i.e. when (if ever)did Israel 'cease' and "Palestine" take its place, and is "Palestine" an appropriate term for the territory.

(I was impressed when a local (Alaskan) 'Palestinian' was asked his origin and he neatly answered: "The Holy Land")


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:35 PM

Just for you mate.

The archeological records indicate that the Jewish people evolved out of native Cana'anite peoples. Some time between about 1800 and 1500 B.C. Semitic people called Hebrews (Haiparu) left Mesopotamia and settled in Canaan. Canaan was settled by different tribes including Semitic peoples, Hittites, and later Philistine seafarers who are thought to have arrived from Mycenae, or to be part of the ancient Greek peoples that also settled Mycenae. According to the Talmud, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. Under Joshua, they conquered the tribes and city states of Canaan. It is estimated that king David conquered Jerusalem about 1000 B.C. and established an Israelite kingdom over much of Canaan including parts of Jordan. The kingdom was divided into Judea in the south and Israel in the north following the death of David's son, Solomon. Jerusalem remained the center of Jewish sovereignty and of Jewish worship whenever the Jews exercised sovereignty over the country in the subsequent period, up to the Jewish revolt in 133 AD. The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 or 721 B.C. The Babylonians conquered Judah around 586 B.C. About 50 years later, the Persian king Cyrus conquered Babylonia. Cyrus allowed a group of Jews from Babylonia to rebuild Jerusalem and settle in it. However, a large number of Jews remained in Babylonia, forming the first Jewish Diaspora. The Persians ruled the land from about 530 to 331 B.C. Alexander the Great then conquered the Persian Empire. After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., his generals divided the empire. One of these generals, Seleucus and his successors, founded a dynasty that gained control of much of Palestine until about 200 B.C. At first, the new rulers, called Seleucids, allowed the practice of Judaism. But later, one of the kings, Antiochus IV, tried to prohibit it. In 167 B.C., the Jews revolted under the leadership of the Maccabeans and either drove the Seleucids out of Palestine or at least established a large degree of autonomy, forming a kingdom with its capital in Jerusalem. The kingdom received Roman "protection" when Judah Maccabee was made a "friend of the Roman senate and people" in 164 B.C. according to the records of Roman historians. The rest is very well documented from this point in history, and you may find it very interesting to read.

Now does that satisfy you?

Yes, I am satisfied that you do not have an independent history. See the part that I bolded.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 04:40 PM

"According to the Talmud, Moses led the Israelites, or a portion of them, out of Egypt. "

OK, Jack, I would agree that it was NOT Moses, but some Jew by the same name.

There are ( as stated above ) OTHER sources of the history presented.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 05:46 PM

Now, putting it all back together (to discern if there is something to be learned here):

Dave said: "Well Paul, the history books I read tell me the land was fought over a long time before Christ came on earth, but I guess you read what your own agenda dictates.

Yours, Aye. Dave."

The CarolC said: "are you using the Old Testament as your history source? Because if you are, you seem to be overlooking the part in the Old Testament that says that the land they were driven from originally was not their own. The Old Testament says that they stole that land from people who were there before them, committing genocide in the process."

That seems to be the original source of the problem. Dave said fighting occurred long before Christ. Long before. And he has graciously supplied a quote which suggests that's right. (As of course one would expect.)

Much back and forth, and he provides a quote which says there was a Genocide starting after Moses and peaking with Joshua -> David. One line says one point came from the Talmud. AND SO WHAT?

Dave never said anything contesting the genocide of Joshua, and in fact he supported it.

Now he is getting blasted for SUPPORTING the assertion of MGOH and the assertion of CarolC even though she wanted to know there was no (non-biblical) support for any Hebrews in 'Palestine" prior to to Joshua's campaign.

But his quote says there was. A cite is not given, but SO WHAT?

If the topic is now to focus on CAROLC's (implied) claim that there were no Hebrews in "Palestine" prior to Joshua's campaign, and with the understanding that she will not accept a contradiction from biblical sources (even though her own claim came from biblical sources), THEN LET'S HAVE IT. Dave has more than done his part.

You are welcome for straightening this out.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 05:58 PM

Or, for a parallel discussion: Can anyone explain the deep hatred of Jewish falafels? Has anyone been monitoring the falafels futures market?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:04 PM

Folksingers like Pete Seeger, Josh White,Odetta, Peter, Paul and Mary and many more have glorified Joshua's actions when he "fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down."

CarolC, would you say that these beacons of folk music are glorifying what you call genocide?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:24 PM

If the topic is now to focus on CAROLC's (implied) claim that there were no Hebrews in "Palestine" prior to Joshua's campaign, and with the understanding that she will not accept a contradiction from biblical sources

I have not made such a claim, and I do not make such a claim.


Are you aware, CarolC, that there are, right now, as we speak, Moslems living inside Israeli villages, not in settlements, who are not in any way harmed by their fellow villagers? And that the Israelis welcome them there in those villages? And that some Israelis even marry Moslems? These are facts. And I would be willing to bet that if Palestinians went to those Israeli villages and the Palestinians treated the people there like their friends (and not as their eternal enemies), the Israelis would welcome them as well.

Yes, beardedbruce. I am perfectly aware of this. What is your point?


Folksingers like Pete Seeger, Josh White,Odetta, Peter, Paul and Mary and many more have glorified Joshua's actions when he "fought the battle of Jericho and the walls came tumbling down."

CarolC, would you say that these beacons of folk music are glorifying what you call genocide?


Perhaps not intentionally, but yes, that's what they are (were) doing.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:33 PM

>>I have not made such a claim, and I do not make such a claim.<<

well crap. I am lost and I thought I wasn't.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:43 PM

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:43 PM

What happened two or three thousand years ago is, in its way, interesting. But to try to use it as a basis for determining territorial rights today is a step too far. That would even apply if the facts were unambiguous and beyond dispute.

The relevance of the passages in the Bible recording and even requiring genocide is not that they necessarily occurred exactly as written - though sadly enough more recent history in many parts of the world indicate that there is nothing intrinsically improbable described in those passages.

However when a claim to territory is based on Biblical texts, the accompanying Biblical passages describing a genocide deserve to be remembered as well. The promise and the things recorded as being done to make that promise reality stand and fall together.

Israel exists primarily not because of a Biblical promise, but as a consequence of the terrible injustice of anti-semitism in Europe, culminating in the Holocaust. The establishment of Israel involved injustice towards the people who were there at the time, an injustice which has continued. This situation has in turn led to horrible atrocities, such as this week's in Tel Aviv.

It's impossible to change history, with all its injustices.   If you take the wrong road in an ordinary journey, you can go back to where you went wrong and set out down the other road - but you can't do that in a journey through time. People have to start from where they are, and somehow get to a better place.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 06:48 PM

McGrath, in his 19 Apr 06 - 06:43 PM post, has the basic gist of what I was trying to say, heric.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 07:25 PM

Carol,

"Yes, beardedbruce. I am perfectly aware of this. What is your point?"

What was yours? In discussing the efforts of the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 to remove the Jews from the Arab occupied territories, YOU keep bringing up the Jeww, married to a Palestinian, who NOW lives in that area. That has NO bearing on the Pre-1967 situation.


" And also that they will continue to be fenced in and imprisoned in tiny bantustans with no access to the rest of the world, or to commerce or any other benefits of civilization. Did the Palestinians do this to the Jews of the West Bank prior to 1967, beardedbruce?"

The answer is NO, they DID NOT ALLOW THEM TO LIVE THERE AT ALL. The Jews on the Arab occupied territories fled for their lives, having been told by the Arabs that they would all be killed. Are you calling the Arabs liars, now?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 07:33 PM

I grew up, pre 1967, across the street from a Palestinian family that was forced out of their home in 1948.

They were Lebonese Orthodox, from the mainly Christian town of Ramallah.......You know, the present seat of the Palestinian government, which appears to be almost entirely Moslem.....

Of cousre, you never mention the Arab Israelis, who stayed in Israel, and are citizens. I am STILL waiting for the explaination of why Israel should have to absorb the Jews driven out of Arab countries, making them citizens of Israel along with the Arabs who did not leave, while the Arabs kept the Palestinian Moslems who left Israel in camps, without citizenship, and drove out their own Jewish populations.


640,000 Arabs left what became Israel
820,000 Jews left the Arab countries

So, the Palestinians have some special right to occupy land that the Jews do not? Or will you also demand that the Arabs provide land to those THEY drove out?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 09:03 PM

Justice would require that all refugees should be able to return to the places they were driven out from, and live in peace there.

One of the goals of a peaceful solution in the Middle East should be to seek to approach that ideal, and one of the tests of its success should be the extent to which it succeeded in that.

The loss of their Jewish communities is indeed a tragedy for many countries, both in Europe and the Middle East. It must be hoped that in time this will be recognised in those countries, and that these communities can be restored in some way.

But games of tit-for-tat, using one lot of ethnic cleansing to justify another, point directly away from such a solution.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 19 Apr 06 - 10:32 PM

What was yours? In discussing the efforts of the Arabs from 1948 to 1967 to remove the Jews from the Arab occupied territories, YOU keep bringing up the Jeww, married to a Palestinian, who NOW lives in that area. That has NO bearing on the Pre-1967 situation.

The reason I keep bringing them up is because people keep trying to make it look like all Palestinians want to kill all Jews. I don't know whether or not that is your intention, but that is the message I get from a lot of your posts. But it simply is not true that all Palestinians want to kill all Jews.

Of cousre, you never mention the Arab Israelis, who stayed in Israel, and are citizens. I am STILL waiting for the explaination of why Israel should have to absorb the Jews driven out of Arab countries, making them citizens of Israel along with the Arabs who did not leave, while the Arabs kept the Palestinian Moslems who left Israel in camps, without citizenship, and drove out their own Jewish populations.

I don't mention the Arab Israelis because they don't live in the Palestinian occupied areas. Those are the areas that I have been mostly addressing in my posts on the subject of the occupation. Those areas are the West Bank and East Jerusalem, and to some extent, Gaza (which Israel is still trying to control in terms of borders). Why should I mention the Arab Israelis when the subject is Palestinians who live in the Palestinian occupied areas?

640,000 Arabs left what became Israel
820,000 Jews left the Arab countries

So, the Palestinians have some special right to occupy land that the Jews do not? Or will you also demand that the Arabs provide land to those THEY drove out?


And this point of yours is the other reason I mention the bit about Jews living in Palestinian occupied areas. Because you keep trying to make it look like the Palestinians who live in these areas don't want any Jews to live there with them, and that simply is not true.

Even the PLO Charter, which does not recognize the state of Israel, includes Jews in the definition of "Palestinian". According to the PLO Charter, Palestinians are anyone, Christian, Jew, or Muslim, who is of Arab descent and who is descended paternally from people who were living in mandate Palestine prior to 1917 or thereabouts.

And you know I advocate for allowing Jews to return to their homes in other Arab countries (those who were from there originally, or their descendents). I've already told you that more than once.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Barry Finn
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:06 AM

C. Ham; "Thus sayeth Barry Finn, a resident of New Hampshire, a state built on land stolen from the Indians and whose Indian population now totals just 1/5th of 1% of the population.

BTW, New Hampshire is one of the most lilly white of all states with an African American population that totals just 7/10ths of 1% of the population."

Big Pink Lad; "Yeah, I heard that was Barry's fault."

Thanks Big Pink Lad for saying something in my favor, I was afraid C.Ham's rebuttal may cause others to think that I was pond scum because of my living in this one small area in this one small state throws a shadow of doubt on all that I may say. You can bet I'm glad I don't own a 2nd home some where else in the USA.

C. Ham; "I'm not suggesting it's his fault. What I'm pointing out is the hypocrisy of attacking Israel, a small country facing terrorism on a daily basis, while living off the fruits of similar or worse expoloitation to what the person is attacking.

My house too is on land that once belonged to the Indians."




C. Ham, I didn't relize that the Isreal/Palestinian conflict was in part related to me. I also didn't know & still don't know what fruits I'm living off of & who they belong to. I also didn't relize that the ethnic population & the percentages of the Peoples of the First Nation & the Afro Americans had to do with any of this or why this involves me in the exploitation of these peoples & why do these things have any thing to do with me or the Irsael/Palestinian conflict?

Thanks C. Ham for some how making me aware that I have some blame in all this because of where I live.

Now, what was your point?

C. Ham, you still have not stated your reasons for the justifaction of the means, the killing of innocents, that would make any of these deaths OK.
The state of Irsael is at war with the people of Palestine not the state of Palestine. The people of Palestine are not at war with state Israel only a group of terrorists are. The Israel Air Fource has it's own pilots refusing orders to fly missions that they consider to be acts "crimes against humanity". You might retort that the Palestinian government should step in. Why would they? Because Israel might treat them a little better than they've treated them in the past? Again, both have to stop the blood letting first, go back to pre 67' borders, end the oppression then talk, without US backing or involvement, we've been a pain in the asses of all involved & forget about a road map the President can even do the right thing never mind making a RIGHT turn. The parties or party that refuse to come to the table after all is done should suffer international sanctions then & only then & not sanction a party of popular choice now. Other wise it's a until death do us part for both peoples or the end of a nation of one people, & the world or at least the Middle East will demand justice.

Barry, who's still waiting for answers


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:27 AM

Historians generally agree that the ancient Semitic peoples -— Assyrians, Aramaeans, Canaanites (including the Phoenicians and Hebrews) and, later, the Arabs themselves migrated into the area of the Fertile Crescent, after successive crises of overpopulation in the Peninsula beginning in the third millennium before the Common Era (BCE), and ending with the Muslim conquests of the 7th century CE

The key word is "migrated" even the name Palestine is derived from the Philistine seafarers who for all intents and purpose were Greeks. Tribal lands with ill defined borders are the root cause of the problems today. Those who do not read and understand history are condemned to re live it. I provided non biblical references and biblical, to my previous statements as challenged, and have nothing more to add.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 01:13 PM

Dave, can you name a single part of the world that hasn't experienced numerous and repeated conflicts over control and borders since the beginning of human awareness? (Aside from uninhabitable places, of course.)

The past is not what determines the present, nor the future. If it were, you would, like your ancestors, be painting yourself blue and warring against invading tribes from Scandinavia.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:07 PM

Hm mm interesting concept CaroleC. The lessons of history you seem to dismiss as not affecting the present are:

1:When you can no longer survive by living on it you move or die.

2:If you cannot defend it, some other group who can will come and take it from you.

3:If you attack and recover control over it, you had better get ready for the next armed group who will try and take it from you.

4:If you don't form alliances with friends other groups will, and eventually become strong enough to have another go at you.

5:Appeasement will not protect you or stop your enemies from assaulting you.

6:Those who ignore these facts are written up in the history books as extinct.

I can just picture the dilemma of my ancestors; who if they knew it at the time would see one third painted blue and warring with another third; while the rest would be waiting in the sidelines to fight over and take control of what was left alive after the battle. ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:17 PM

I think I should clarify my last point, because I don't think it got understood the way I meant it.

The past certainly does effect where you have got to in the present. But it does not need to determine how you conduct yourself right now.

Another way of saying it is, past conflicts do not need to be brought into the present, nor into the future. And indeed, quite often, as we have seen in some of our own histories, they have not.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:19 PM

C. Ham, you still have not stated your reasons for the justifaction of the means, the killing of innocents, that would make any of these deaths OK.
The state of Irsael is at war with the people of Palestine not the state of Palestine. The people of Palestine are not at war with state Israel only a group of terrorists are.


Barry Finn,

I have never "justified" the killing of any innocent people. You are a liar to suggest otherwise.

Your analysis is also wrought with lies. Israel is a significant military power. If it were "at war with the people of Palestine" the Palestinians would have been rolled over and defeated years ago. Israel takes great care to minimize loss of Palestinian civilian life, despite the fact that the Palestinian terrorists hide behind the civilians.

The government of Israel is committed to the creation of a Palestinian state. The newly-elected Palestinian government, on the other hand, does not recognize Israel and is committed to Israel's total destruction of Israel. The former Palestinian government did recognize Israel, but the Palestinian people threw them out.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:26 PM

I bet if the government of Israel would sit down with the democratically elected government of the Palestinian people (and if the Israeli government would be willing to negotiate in good faith and begin the negotiations with a clearly stated end game as their initial bargaining position), Hamas might be willing to reconsider. Hamas has said they would like to have the opportunity. The government of Israel has refused.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:30 PM

"Hamas has said they would like to have the opportunity"

Can you please point where this was? I have NEVER seen ANY statement from Hamas acknowledging the State of Israel, much less being willing to talk with them.

They HAVE stated that their intention to reclaim ALL of Palestine ( as defined by them, the entire state of Israel) from the Zionists.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:41 PM

I'll see if I can find a link, beardedbruce. It's been a few weeks since I saw the article.

Hamas does not recognise the state of Israel. But they have said that they are willing to consider doing so if Israel will pull back to the pre-1967 borders.

I believe I understand why they are adopting this stance. The Palestinians have already given up more than seventy percent of what they had to begin with. They feel that they have already made far more concessions than Israel has. And yet, Israel wants them to make all future concessions, with Israel having to make almost no concessions. Israel has never sat down at the negotiating table with a stated end game as their bargaining position. Never.

Hamas wants Israel to bargain in good faith and to be willing to also make concessions. Hamas knows that if they don't start from the beginning... to start from the understanding that they have already made the biggest concession - that of giving up more than seventy percent of what they had to begin with, Israel will continue to demand that the Palestinians give up more of what little they still have, while Israel conceeds nothing.

I vehemently disagree with their stance of justifying the killing of innocents, but I very much understand their bargaining position. And I can't really say I disagree with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:43 PM

I think Israel has demonstrated good faith on more than one occasion. Good faith has been thrown back in it's face too many times. If anyone should be advocating a peace initiative it should be Hamas; who's avowed policy is to destroy Israel, and murder Israeli's indiscriminately. Unacceptable policy for any reasonable person to support regardless of the fact Hamas was democratically elected in Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 02:53 PM

That's not true, Dave. Israel has never negotiated with a declared end game. And it's also not true that anything has been thrown back in their face. If you knew what Israel was offering the Palestinians (and it's pretty obvious that you do not), and if you knew what the Palestinians have already given up, and what they have stated (and shown) that they are willing to give up, you would not be saying that.

Israel doesn't even have a constitution. The reason for this is because they don't want to declare borders. The reason they don't want to declare borders is because they don't want to be limited in their territorial expansion. Israel's leaders have stated that the borders of Israel are the business of the Jewish people and no one else.

That is not a concession. That is a declaration of an intention to expand and dominate.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:04 PM

"pre-1967 borders"

You mean back when the Arabs controlled East Jerusalum, and refused access to ANY Jew to the most holy site of the Jewish religion?

Ain't gonna happen.




"seventy percent of what they had to begin with"

Can you tell me what 70% they have given up? Or do you mena the entire state of Israel is "supposed" to be theirs?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:08 PM

"Although Israel does not have a single complete constitutional document, in its forty-five years of statehood the Jewish state has developed an operative constitution of its own, embodied in a set of written texts that reflect the political system on which the state is based, its social content, and an expanding constitutional tradition. Those texts were properly promulgated by the representatives of the people and recognized as constitutional by Israel's Supreme Court. The texts are collected and presented here for what they are -- Israel's operative constitution that determines the basic operations of the Israeli polity, the basic rules of governance enforced by those empowered to execute and enforce the law and, as such, interpreted by the courts as a constitution.




Political Compact and Covenant

The constitutional character of a civil society is not based on the existence of a written constitution alone. Both as a new society in the modern sense and as the heir to Jewish political principles, Israel was founded on the basis of a political compact that is both a social contract through which its citizens have established the terms of civil peace upon which their polity rests and a covenant that morally connects Israelis to a set of shared political principles and aspirations.

Israel's declaration of independence is precisely that kind of political compact. The Declaration of the Establishment of the State of Israel, as it is officially known, represents the consensual basis upon which the state rests. In essence, it is Israel's founding covenant. As indicated by the range of signatures appended to it, it was proclaimed as the expression of a wall-to-wall consensus which extended beyond the Zionist movement to include the Communists and the ultra-Orthodox non-Zionists of Agudat Israel. Precisely drafted to assure the support of all parties to Israel's founding, it combines Jewish national aspirations and universal human rights, religious and secular sensibilities, Zionist needs and the political ends of modern democracy. As such, it was and is a consensus-building document.1"


CarolC, you have stated "Israel doesn't even have a constitution. The reason for this is because they don't want to declare borders. The reason they don't want to declare borders is because they don't want to be limited in their territorial expansion." Can you give any support to this opinion?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:10 PM

If I were to state that the Palestinian government did not recognize the state of Israel beacause they did not want to have to deal in good faith with it, I am sure CarolC would ask where I had gotten that information, and what support I had for it.


NOTE I do not make that claim- though I could...


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:17 PM

Ok, I'll get supporting documentation as time allows, beardedbruce.

However, in the meantime, I have a project for you. Please provide me with documentation of the location of all of Israel's declared borders, and also with the Israel's stated end game (with specifics, not just "we are willing to consider the possibility of the establishment of an independent Palestinian state") for purposes of negotiation with the Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:19 PM

"Israel doesn't even have a constitution. The reason for this is   because they don't want to declare borders. The reason they don't want to declare borders is because they don't want to be limited in their territorial expansion. Israel's leaders have stated that the borders of Israel are the business of the Jewish people and no one else."--Carol C


Carol: Is that not pretty much what every nation does?   The question then comes down to is it for self defense or expansion---we all know your opinion on that already---ad nauseum.

             As to Hamas I refer you and all to my earlier post---diplomacy has eluded them in hailing the last suicide attack.   It just underscores the opinions I noted in the earlier post re:not holding back the Tax Revenues until there was the backward step of attacks.   That, now, has happened. The only mistake that Israel made was, in my opinion, in holding back the funds waiting for Hamas to make a positive statement---they won't because their aim is what it has always been.

             The Israeli response--so far--has been very diplomatic and low key.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:22 PM

So you don't deny that Israel has an expansionist agenda, Bill H?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:31 PM

Is that not pretty much what every nation does?

See, here you are talking out of both sides of your mouth. On the one hand, you condemn the Palestinians for wanting to be able to keep just enough of what they once had to be able to have a viable independent state of their own. On the other hand, you are justifying Israel's taking of other people's land.

You really can't have it both ways, even though you appear to think that you can. You hold Israel to a very different standard of behavior than you do the Palestinians. The Palestinians are only asking to be treated the same as anyone else. You are saying this is an unreasonable stance, and that Israel has a right to do whatever it wants.

This is why Israel is the target of terrorist attacks, and will continue to be so until it learns to share and to play fair. And that's not because I agree with the use of terrorism. It's because human beings don't willingly submit to being treated like they have no rights.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:33 PM

You surely do have a way of twisting words to suit yourself---please show where I said that "...Israel has and expansionist agenda"?

You sound like the lawyer who asks the witness "...when did you stop beating your wife?"---The fact that the witness never did does not enter into the question.   Do you have a law degree---you spin things as an attorney does.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:34 PM

"Israel's stated end game (with specifics, not just "we are willing to consider the possibility of the establishment of an independent Palestinian state") for purposes of negotiation with the Palestinians. "

What stated endgame? The ONLY stated endgame in the "negotiations" is the statement that the Palestinians want the destruction of the state of Israel.

Israel has stated that it will NOT give up control over Jerusalum, given the past "access" that the Arabs allowed. They have stated that they would NEGOTIOATE with the Palestinian state (when it recognizes Israel) over borders, access, water rights, etc.

NEGOTIATION does not require a stated "endgame"- the final results of a reasonable negotiation ( both sides in ernest) is what is determined BY that negotiation. If the end results are prestated, why negotiate, since there is no doubt as to those results?


"provide me with documentation of the location of all of Israel's declared borders,"

I will look into this- Do you mean the UN specified ones of the original creatiion of Israel, the truce lines of 1948, the truce lines of 1956, the truce lines of 1967, the truce lines of 1973, the negotiated borders with Egypt and Jordan, or the unilateral line being drawn up today?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:41 PM

Hamas does not recognise the state of Israel. But they have said that they are willing to consider doing so if Israel will pull back to the pre-1967 borders.

Hamas has repeadtly stated that there are NO circumstances under which they will recognize Israel's right to exist.

CarolC,

On more than one occasion, you've stated that the Palestinians will make peace with Israel based on the pre-1967 borders.

From the creation of State of Israel in 1948 until the Six Day War in 1967, there were no Palestinian territories. Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan. Are you suggesting that those areas return to Egypt and Jordan? In making peace with Israel, both of those Arab countries washed their hands of them and the Palestinian people.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:46 PM

How about this?

http://www.passia.org/palestine_facts/MAPS/1923-1948-british-mandate.html

"The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917, under which the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine without prejudice to the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country. The conference's decisions were embodied in the stillborn Treaty of Sèvres (Section VII, Art 94-97). As Turkey rejected this treaty, the conference's decisions were only finally confirmed by the Council of the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Remo_conference


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 03:59 PM

"The Treaty of Lausanne was a peace treaty (peace treaty: A treaty to cease hostilities) that set the boundaries of modern Turkey (Turkey: A Eurasian republic in Asia Minor and the Balkans; achieved independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1923) . It was signed in Lausanne (Lausanne: A city in western Switzerland; cultural and commercial center) , Switzerland (Switzerland: A landlocked federal republic in central Europe) on July 24, 1923 by Greece (Greece: A republic in southeastern Europe on the southern part of the Balkan peninsula; known for grapes and olives and olive oil) , Turkey (Turkey: A Eurasian republic in Asia Minor and the Balkans; achieved independence from the Ottoman Empire in 1923) and other countries (including the Allied Powers (Allied Powers: when spelt with a capital a, allies usually denotes the countries that fought together...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) ) that fought in the First World War (First World War: A war between the allies (Russia, France, British Empire, Italy, United States, Japan, Rumania, Serbia, Belgium, Greece, Portugal, Montenegro) and the central powers (Germany, Austria-Hungary, Turkey, Bulgaria) from 1914 to 1918) and in the Turkish Independence War (Turkish Independence War: the turkish war of independence is a part of the history of turkey that spans from the...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) / War in Asia Minor, 1919-1922 (War in Asia Minor, 1919-1922: more facts about this subject) .

It superseded the Treaty of Sèvres (Treaty of Sèvres: the treaty of sèvres of august 10, 1920, made peace between the allied and associated...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) which had been rendered as "unacceptable" by the newly founded Turkish government replacing the monarchy in Istanbul. After the expulsion of the Greek forces by the Turkish army under the command of Kemal Atatürk (Kemal Atatürk: more facts about this subject) , there appeared to be a need to renew Treaty of Sèvres (Treaty of Sèvres: the treaty of sèvres of august 10, 1920, made peace between the allied and associated...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) . In October 20th, 1922 the peace conference was opened, and after harsh debates, in February, 4th it was interrupted. Reopening in April, 23rd the treaty was signed in July, 24th after a total of 8 months of long and arduous discussions."


Or will you now state the borders of Turkey, determined by the same treaty, are not valid?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 04:31 PM

THIS is what the Arabs REJECTED in 1948


This is the truce lines of 1949


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Egypt_Peace_Treaty

"Borders: the agreed upon border was set to be the Jordan river, and if its flow changed, Jordan's border would be reset by the river's new course. In addition, Israel gave Jordan 300 square kilometers and leased 2850 dunams (2.85 km²) in the Arava (Muvlaat Tzofar). The border segment from Ein Gedi to Beit She'an was not marked, because Jordan said that the Palestinian Authority should be a partner for setting this border. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel-Jordan_Treaty_of_Peace


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:05 PM

Ok, maybe I misread what you said. So let's deal with what you did say...

The question then comes down to is it for self defense or expansion

Clearly it's not for self defense. The government of Israel's policies and practices have not made Israel more secure. Just the opposite. They have made Israel less secure. The very existance of this thread is proof enough of that.

Thanks for the links, beardedbruce. I'll have a look at them.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:19 PM

Missed this bit...

What stated endgame? The ONLY stated endgame in the "negotiations" is the statement that the Palestinians want the destruction of the state of Israel.

Hamas has said that they would consider recognizing Israel if Israel would withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. This kind of phrasing exactly mirrors the phrasing of the government of Israel when it says it will consider the possibility of an independent Palestinian state when the Palestinians stop all of the terrorist attacks. And that is how the government of Israel phrases it. It's exactly the same thing.

NEGOTIATION does not require a stated "endgame"- the final results of a reasonable negotiation ( both sides in ernest) is what is determined BY that negotiation. If the end results are prestated, why negotiate, since there is no doubt as to those results?

Clearly. And it looks like the Palestinians are beginning to learn from the Israelis how to more effectively negotiate. Before now, the Palestinians went into negotiations with their end game clearly stated. This obviously has not worked for them.

I will look into this- Do you mean the UN specified ones of the original creatiion of Israel, the truce lines of 1948, the truce lines of 1956, the truce lines of 1967, the truce lines of 1973, the negotiated borders with Egypt and Jordan, or the unilateral line being drawn up today?

I'm talking about all of the borders Israel shares with its neighbors that the government of Israel itself recognizes.

Hamas has repeadtly stated that there are NO circumstances under which they will recognize Israel's right to exist.

Lately they have said they would consider recognizing Israel if Israel would withdraw to the pre-1967 borders. See my comment to beardedbruce above.

From the creation of State of Israel in 1948 until the Six Day War in 1967, there were no Palestinian territories. Gaza was part of Egypt and the West Bank was part of Jordan. Are you suggesting that those areas return to Egypt and Jordan? In making peace with Israel, both of those Arab countries washed their hands of them and the Palestinian people.

The Palestinians were promised their own state by the British before Israel was even a country. Israel, Jordan, and Egypt preempted that promise and created their own "facts on the ground". This was not the fault of the Palestinians.

The Palestinians should be left alone to create the state they were promised originally, within the West Bank, Gaza, and East Jerusalem.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:26 PM

Actually, the League of Nations on 24 July 1922 and the 1924 Treaty of Lausanne, as well as the San Remo conference of 1920, set up a Jewish Homeland over the entire region now known as Israel, the West Bank AND much of Jordan. Too bad the British did not keep THEIR part of the treaty.

"The conference broadly reaffirmed the terms of the Anglo-French Sykes-Picot Agreement of 16 May 1916 for the region's partition and the Balfour Declaration of 2 November 1917, under which the British government had undertaken to favour the establishment of a Jewish national home in Palestine"


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:37 PM

There was obviously a lot of double dealing going on. Everybody seems to have been promised the same thing at one point or another. It's hardly fair for anyone, but the ones who have been treated the most unfairly are the Palestinians. They are the ones who have given up the most. They are, after all, the ones who were living on that land for many hundreds of years prior to the establishment of the state of Israel (and I do include Jewish Palestinians of Arab descent when I use the term "Palestinian" in this context).


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 07:45 PM

CarolC,

I do agree that it has not been fair to the Palestinian people, but I would like to point out that the Israelis took in those Jews that were ejected from the Arab nations, as well as accept the Moslems who chose to stay in Israel, while the Arab nations DID NOT accept the Moslems who did flee, nor allow the Jews to remain. It seems to me that the other Arab nations owe far more to the Palestinians than Israel does.

Where were the demands for a Palestinian State when the Arabs had control of the West Bank? If we are going to say that the borders should not be controlled by the results of the wars that have been foughtfrom 1948 on, will you agree to go with the border of a Jewish Homeland as specified in the San Remo conference of 1920, and 1924 Treaty of Lausanne, as was done for the nation of Turkey? What makes the 1956-1967 border so sacred?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:16 PM

Not too sure of the accuracy, but a starting point...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_villages_depopulated_during_the_1948_Arab-Israeli_war


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:21 PM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine

"During World War I the British had made two promises regarding territory in the Middle East. Britain had promised the local Arabs, through Lawrence of Arabia, independence for a united Arab country covering most of the Arab Middle East, in exchange for their supporting the British and Britain had promised to create and foster a Jewish national home as laid out in the Balfour Declaration, 1917.

The British had, in the Hussein-McMahon Correspondence, previously promised the Hashemite family lordship over most land in the region in return for their support in the Great Arab Revolt during World War I. In 1920 at the Conference of San Remo, Italy, the League of Nations mandate over Palestine was assigned to Britain. This territory at this time included all of what would later become the State of Israel, the Gaza Strip, the West Bank, a part of the Golan Heights, and the Kingdom of Jordan. The majority of the approximately 750,000 people in this multi-ethnic region were Arabic-speaking Muslims, including a Bedouin population (estimated at 103,331 at the time of the 1922 census [2] and concentrated in the Beersheba area and the region south and east of it), as well as Jews (who comprised some 11% of the total) and smaller groups of Druze, Syrians, Sudanese, Circassians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Hejazi Arabs.

Many articles of the document specified actions in support of Jewish immigration and political status. However, it was also stated that in the large, mostly arid, territory to the east of the Jordan River, then called Transjordan, Britain could 'postpone or withhold' application of the provisions dealing with the 'Jewish National Home'. At the Cairo Conference of 1921 a government under the Hashimite Emir Abdullah who had just been displaced from ruling the Hejaz was established in 'Transjordan'. In September 1922, the British government presented a memorandum to the League of Nations stating that Transjordan would be excluded from all the provisions dealing with Jewish settlement, and this memorandum was approved on 11 September. From that point onwards, Britain administered the part west of the Jordan as Palestine (which was 23% of the entire territory), and the part east of the Jordan as Transjordan (constituting 77% of the mandated territories). Technically they remained one mandate but most official documents referred to them as if they were two separate mandates. Transjordan remained under British control until 1946.



So, the division of "Palestine" was into Jordan and what is now Israel..... Jews got 23% of the Mandate Territory.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:26 PM

"As a result the first option was adopted and the UN General Assembly largely accepted UNSCOP's proposals, though they made some adjustments to the boundaries between the two states proposed by it. The division was to take effect on the date of British withdrawal.

The partition plan was rejected out of hand by the leadership of the Palestinian Arabs and by most of the Arab population. Most of the Jews accepted the proposal, in particular the Jewish Agency, which was the Jewish state-in-formation. Numerous records indicate the joy of Palestine's Jewish inhabitants as they attended the U.N. session voting for the division proposal. Up to this day, Israeli history books mention 29 November, the date of this session, as the most important date leading to the creation of the Israeli state."


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:27 PM

beardedbruce, you keep approaching this from the standpoint that the Palestinians owe the Iraelis something. They do not. What other Arab countries have done is not the responsibility of the Palestinians. If you have a complaint with those countries, take it up with them. Don't make the Palestinians pay for the behavior of others.

You (and the government of Israel) are treating the Palestinians as if they don't have the same rights as the Israelis. This is a mistake, and it is the main cause of the violence that has been plaguing the Middle East ever since the establishment of the state of Israel.

Here is a very good analysis of Hamas and what it's goals and motivations are...

http://www.oxfordresearchgroup.org.uk/publications/briefings/hamas.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:28 PM

"On the date of British withdrawal the Jewish provisional government declared the formation of the State of Israel, and the provisional government said that it would grant full civil rights to all within its borders, whether Arab, Jew, Bedouin or Druze. The declaration stated:

We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions. "


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:30 PM

But what actual physical borders does the government of Israel recognize, beardedbruce?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:30 PM

In 1945 a demographic study showed that the population had grown to 1,764,520, comprising 1,061,270 Muslims, 553,600 Jews, 135,550 Christians and 14,100 people of other groups.

Year Total Muslim Jewish Christian Other
1922 752,048 589,177(78%) 83,790(11%) 71,464(10%) 7,617(1%)
1931 1,036,339 761,922(74%) 175,138(17%) 89,134(9%) 10,145(1%)
1945 1,764,520 1,061,270(60%) 553,600(31%) 135,550(8%) 14,100(1%)

So, as of 1945 the population of 31% Jews was supposed to get 23% of the Mandate Palestine Territory. The UN resolution gave them less than that, and the Arabs still refused to agree.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:38 PM

The actual borders have been determined by negotiation, with Egypt and Jordan so far. WHEN the Palestinians acknowledge the right of Israel to exit, and NOT be attacked, then they can negotiate borders for themselves. Who knows when Syria will?

"you keep approaching this from the standpoint that the Palestinians owe the Iraelis something. They do not. "

I do not say that Israel is owed anything, except peace. YOU keep saying that Israel owes the Palestinians something- They do not. My post above show that the INTENT of the Major powers was to have two states, Israel and Jordan, created from the Mandate Palestine Territories. Jordan has NEGOTIATED a border of the Jordan River- THAT is the present border of Israel to the east. If it is to be changed, that will be done with negotiation, NOT by attacks on innocent ciuvilians now being supported by the present Palestinian leadership.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:38 PM

The other thing that I think needs to be pointed out is the fact that nobody had the right to take away the Palestinians' right to remain exactly where they were prior to the creation of the state of Israel. The fact that various entities undertook to take away this right anyway is a reality that we have to deal with now. However, the fact that this is the reality now does not in any way obligate the Palestinians to agree to it. To whatever extent they do agree to it is a concession on their part.

In order to understand why they have responded the way they have to the way Israel has treated them, it is necessary to recognize this one basic fact.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:43 PM

Given the present Arab population of Israel, "nobody had the right to take away the Palestinians' right to remain exactly where they were prior to the creation of the state of Israel. " Does not make much sense. Who took those rights away? Note the statement upon creation of Israel:
"We appeal ... to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions. "

Israel is the ONLY country in the region that HAS accepted those Arabs who lived in Mandate Palestine Territory west of the Jordan river as citizens. Or do you think those camps that the Palestinians have been living in represent "citizenship" ?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:45 PM

Israel does owe the Palestinians something. In fact it owes them pretty much everything. Everything Israel has, it has because of something the Palestinians have been forced to give up. The reason the Palestinians owe Israel nothing (not even peace), is because Israel's existance has never been predicated upon any kind of agreement that the Palestinians were a party to.

Until Israel recognizes this and treats the Palestinians with the respect they deserve, Israel will never have peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:48 PM

"In fact it owes them pretty much everything. Everything Israel has, it has because of something the Palestinians have been forced to give up"

I do not agree with this statement, as the existance of Israeli Arabs has proven. The ones who chose to flee, because of promises by Arab leaders that they would get the territories that the UN had given to the Jews are owed nothing.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:56 PM

I do not agree with this statement, as the existance of Israeli Arabs has proven. The ones who chose to flee, because of promises by Arab leaders that they would get the territories that the UN had given to the Jews are owed nothing.

Of course you are entitled to not agree. But that old falshood about Arabs choosing to flee because of promises by Arab leaders has been disproven for a long, long time.

The Arabs who fled were fleeing for their very lives. They did not want to be massacred as many other Arabs had been by the Jewish terrorists and para-militaries. And it is for exactly these reasons that Israel owes the Palestinians everything.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 08:59 PM

If you have a complaint with the results of the actions of the Arab countries, take it up with them. Don't make the Israelis pay for the behavior of others.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:02 PM

Well, the only problem I have with the behavior of other Arab countries in this particular context is the fact that they, along with Israel, took land away from the Palestinians that should rightfully belong to the Palestinians. But those other Arab countries don't have that land any more... Israel does. Do I am now taking it up with Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:03 PM

sorry- crossposted. My comment is that, just as you consider the existance of one Jew in the West bank presently as "proof" that the Arabs did not remove all the others, the existance of the much larger Arab Israeli population proves that it was NOT a policy of the state of Israel- Will you now say that the actions of any group of Palestinian Terrorists represent the will of the Palestinian people?

"But that old falshood about Arabs choosing to flee because of promises by Arab leaders has been disproven for a long, long time."

Disproven? Not so sure I agree...


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM

crossposted again...

"But those other Arab countries don't have that land any more"
Nope- LOOK at the map of Mandate Palestine, and tell me that Jordan does not have a big ( 77%) chunk. And THAT is if you give Israel the ENTIRE West bank. So, go talk to the Jordanians about what is owed to the Palestinians- Though you need to remember that when Jordan had control of the West Bank, they made NO effort to create a "Palestinian State"


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:11 PM

sorry- crossposted. My comment is that, just as you consider the existance of one Jew in the West bank presently as "proof" that the Arabs did not remove all the others, the existance of the much larger Arab Israeli population proves that it was NOT a policy of the state of Israel- Will you now say that the actions of any group of Palestinian Terrorists represent the will of the Palestinian people?

Hardly only one, beardbruce. But having an Arab population in Israel means nothing. Many of those Arabs, the ones who never left what is now Israel, have never been allowed to return to their homes within Israel. And the ones who fled to areas outside Israel have never been allowed to return to Israel. That is proof enough that Israel was deliberately committing ethnic cleansing. The fact that it didn't succeed in removing all of them proves nothing. Israel is, as we speak, in the process of removing large numbers of the Arabs who are still in Israel from their homes. The ethnic cleansing is still going on in within Israel proper. It never stopped... it only slowed down.

And that is why the Palestinians need a place of their own. Because Arabs in Israel (non-Jewish Arabs, and even Jewish Arabs) don't have the same rights as European Jews in Israel. And they never have.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 09:16 PM

Jordan is not, and never has been the land that the Palestinians were living on prior to the establishment of the state of Israel. Moving the Palestinians from where they were originally from, to someplace where they never lived (Jordan), is not something they are or were ever obligated to agree to.

The Palestinians never agreed to give anything up during the time when all of these promises were being made to the Jews who wanted that land for their own country. So they owe Israel nothing. Everything they have already given up is a concession.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:14 PM

I have to disagree with you. Does NOT mean I am not listening to what you say, and reading your references.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:22 PM

I'm afraid you cannot enlighten her with fact beardedbruce, her mind is already made up..

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,Teddy
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:25 PM

When I was in Palistine in 1940 it was the Jews who were the terrorists. Check it out


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 10:51 PM

British commitment to the establishment of a Jewish homeland in Palestine, dating back to 1917, was compromised in 1939 by the McDonald White Paper. This policy statement may have mollified Arab opinion, as intended, but it certainly alienated Zionist Jews as its enforcement prevented the free settlement of Holocaust refugees. Yet as long as Hitler remained the common enemy, differences were muted. Jewish enlistments in British armed forces were heavier and their performance better than those from the Arab populations. With the end of the war and the election of the Attlee Labour government in Britain, Zionist hopes for a new policy were again frustrated, and Jewish terrorist attacks escalated. Support for a militant Zionism came from abroad, especially from Americans who contributed both money and pressure on their political leadership to liberalize Jewish immigration to Palestine. The needs of European Jews attracted widespread sympathy after the Holocaust—an experience dramatized in the press during the opening of the death camps in 1945. International conferences were held by supporters of each side during 1946, but the year ended without the adoption of acceptable compromises. As I stated much earlier, the concentration camps forged the state of Israel. Calling them terrorists for taking a piece of their original homeland back, is like calling General Custer a freedom fighter.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 11:44 PM

If the concentration camps forged the state of Israel, why wasn't Israel situated in Germany? How far back in time can people claim their original homeland and according to whose history? I don't think it was a matter of collective guilt. It was more a matter of "not in my backyard".

The biggest problem with displacing Palestinians and giving their land to European Jews is that, "Support for a militant Zionism came from abroad, especially from Americans who contributed both money and pressure on their political leadership to liberalize Jewish immigration to Palestine."

There are two reasons Americans supported the creation of Israel.

1. Israel is strategically located near the oil fields.

2. The U.S. did not want to deal with the large number of Jewish immigrants who needed homes after the World War II.

I do not understand how a group of countries can get together and create a new and "independent" state on land occupied by others. Its the worse form of bullying and I am always surprised when Jews condone ethnic cleansing.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:28 AM

I'm afraid you cannot enlighten her with fact beardedbruce, her mind is already made up..

On the contrary. My views on this subject have been evolving steadily over the last four years (approximately). I started out with views fairly similar to beardedbruce's. But about four years ago, my veiws began to change, and they have continued to evolve and change ever since. I expect that they will keep on evolving and changing as I learn more, though they will probably not ever coincide with beardedbruce's views again in the future unless his views change dramatically in the same direction as mine.

Jewish enlistments in British armed forces were heavier and their performance better than those from the Arab populations.

This is a bit misleading, since you are only addressing recruits to British armed forces. This is no indication of how many people from Arab populations served in the fight against the Axis powers overall, nor of how well they fought.

Calling them terrorists for taking a piece of their original homeland back, is like calling General Custer a freedom fighter.

Fist of all, we have not established any "facts" about whether or not the people who eventually became Ashkenazi Jews preceded the people who became Palestinians in terms of who was in the area of "Palestine" first.

And secondly, calling Palestinians terrorists for trying to keep their ancestral homes and farmlands is like calling the Allies terrorists for fighting against the Axis powers in WWII.

Calling Palestinians "Arabs" is quite misleading in terms of trying to establish their origins. This is because the people of the area that was once known as "Palestine" are not genetically any more "Arab" than are Ashkenazi Jews. They have just been "Arabized" by the Arabs who migrated to the area in later times.

Nobody can say for certain whether or not either group preceded the other in that area of the world, but I think it's probably safe to say that both groups are basically just two branches of the same ethnic family, with the same origins and the same "original homeland". The Ashkenazim left the area, the Mizrahim did not. This gives the Mizrahim as well as the non-Jewish Palestinians the greater claim to the area as their homeland.

Here is some information about the genetic origins of the "Palestinians"...

http://www.answers.com/topic/palestinian-people

"As genetic techniques have advanced, it has become possible to look directly into the question of the ancestry of the Palestinians. In recent years, many genetic surveys have suggested that � at least paternally � the various Jewish ethnic divisions and Palestinians, (and in some cases other Levantines) are genetically closer to each other than either is to the Arabs (of Arabia) or non-Jewish Europeans. [11] [12] [13] [14]([15] contains more links to genetic studies of Jewish and Middle Eastern populations). These studies look at the prevalence of specific inherited genetic differences (polymorphism) among populations, which then allow the relatedness of these populations to be determined, and their ancestry to be traced back (see population genetics). These differences can be the cause of genetic disease or be completely neutral (see Single nucleotide polymorphism) ; they can be inherited maternally (mitochondrial DNA), paternally (Y chromosome), or as a mixture from both parents ; the results obtained may vary from polymorphism to polymorphism. One study [16]on congenital deafness identified an allele only found in Palestinian and Ashkenazi communities, suggesting a common origin ; an investigation [17] of a Y-chromosome polymorphism found Lebanese, Palestinian, and Sephardic populations to be particularly closely related"


beardedbruce, the requests for documentation have been piling up and I still have several more to catch up with, it would seem. I'll try tomorrow as time permits.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Kweku
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 04:15 AM

not a week passes by without hearing about violence in the middle east. judaism,islam and christianity all claim that this is a holy land. if so then why the hell is the spilling of blood for.

and it seems most leaders in both the west and the east seem to enjoy this barbarism. the world need peace and the earlier we realize that equal rights and justice is a must for every living creature the better. let us forget about the past and let us focus on the future.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:46 AM

Dianavan,

The ignorance and the blatant anti-Semitism displayed throughout your post of 20 Apr 06 - 11:44 PM is revealing.

The concluding statement

I do not understand how a group of countries can get together and create a new and "independent" state on land occupied by others. Its the worse form of bullying and I am always surprised when Jews condone ethnic cleansing.

is quite a laugh coming from someone living fat in British Columbia, a province almost totally occupied on disputed native lands.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:53 AM

C-Ham,

Assuming that what you say about B.C. is true. Your accusation of anti-semitism is groundless. It is your who are showing bigotry by implying that what was OK for Whites in B.C. is O.K. for European Jews in Israel. That view doesn't flatter anyone.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 09:28 AM

CaroleC, The only thing misleading is your inability to accept what I post is docmented fact.

Yours, Aye. Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 09:33 AM

No Jack, I'm not suggesting what was OK for whites in BC is OK for European Jews in Israel. I'm suggesting that's it totally hypocritical for whites in BC to silently live off the fruits of expoitation in their own homes while holding others to a higher standard.

Dianavan's anti-Semitism is evident in that she holds Jews to a different standard than she holds other people, including herself. And also in ridiculous theories about the Jews being planted in Israel (which is not an oil-producing area) to protect American oil interests in the Middle East.

BTW, the beginning of the modern Zionist movement in the late-19th cebtury, and the establishment of the State of Israel about 50 years later, took place long before oil shortages were any kind of a an issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 10:58 AM

CaroleC, The only thing misleading is your inability to accept what I post is docmented fact.

They may be documented, but they are in dispute, which means that they are not established "facts".


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:03 AM

They may be documented, but they are in dispute, which means that they are not established "facts".

LOL

You could say exactly the same thing about most of the links that you've provided over the past four years.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:18 AM

If the links I post contain information that disputes other information, I do sometimes point out that it is a "fact" that is in dispute. Sometimes the information contained the links I post links is not in dispute, however. And sometimes it is a debunking of what has previously been considered to be "fact". I sometimes indicate when the contents of the links I post is a debunking.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:27 AM

CarolC, you are obviously the final arbiter and authority on what is fact, what is fiction, what is in dispute, etc., on any questions pertaining to the Palestinian/Israeli issue.

Obviously, the major failing of the Bush administartion is that it has not called on your vast knowledge and wisdom to step in and settle the issue once and for all.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:33 AM

Obviously.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:34 AM

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:55 AM

All joking aside though, I would point out (and you can verify this yourself right here in this thread), that when beardedbruce, for instance, has said to me "I disagree", I have not challenged his right to do so. Everyone has a right to disagree.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 12:24 PM

CaroleC, The only thing arguable with my links is minutiae. Exact dates and precise borders and names are difficult to corroborate when you are comparing dead languages and details from scripts that don't have a usable date inscribed on them. Our abilities to use carbon dating (which can be decades out)with other scientific methods cannot satisfy minutiae. I challenge you to prove my assertions wrong.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 12:44 PM

Well, that would depend on your premise, Dave. If your premise is that it has been definitivly established that the people who became the Ashkenazi Jews lived in the area of what was once called "Palestine" prior to the people who became known as "Palestinians", then your "facts" are most certainly in dispute. If you read the contents of the last link I provided, about the genetic research being done on both groups of people, you will see some very good challenges to your "facts".

If you are not trying to assert that the Ashkenazim preceeded the "Palestinians" in that area, then we are not in substantial disagreement.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:01 PM

An article by Arthur Koestler many years ago speculated that Ashkenazy Jews are descended from the Khazars, a Central Asian kingdom that converted to Judaism and eventually vanished. This claim has been used by anti-Zionists to argue that the Jews are not a nation, and that Ashkenazy Jews have no rights to Israel. The best evidence indicates that Jews dispersed throughout Europe from Rome. There were Jewish communities in France in the dark ages evidently. Other Ashkenazy Jews are descended from Spanish (Sephardic) Jews who were forced to leave Spain in 1492. Genetic evidence indicates that European Jews are probably closer to Palestinian and Syrian Arabs than to central Asians who are partly descended from the Khazars; see articles here and here for example. In any case, the claims of a people to nationhood are almost never based on genetics or "race." Nobody claims that all the French are descended from ancient Gauls, or that all the British are descended from the Celts and Picts. When Americans talk about "'our' forefathers," the 'our' doesn't usually exclude the generations of immigrants who came after the Mayflower settlers. Today's Palestinians are not all descended from ancient Canaanites and Philistines. Some are converted Jews. Some are descended from Arab families who arrived with various conquerors. Whatever the merits of the genetic arguments, claims that anyone has no right to a country because they are not racially "pure" are racist claims, and identify the people making those claims as racists.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:06 PM

Sorry try here, my links failed above.

http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/HammerPNAS_2000.pdf

http://www.ucl.ac.uk/tcga/tcgapdf/Nebel-HG-00-IPArabs.pdf


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:08 PM

Today's Palestinians are not all descended from ancient Canaanites and Philistines. Some are converted Jews. Some are descended from Arab families who arrived with various conquerors.

I've never heard or read anything suggesting that the Palestinians have any kind of relationship with the ancient Canaanites and Philistines.

The Palestinians are Arabs. The Arabs first arrived in Israel/Palestine as conquerors in the 7th century A.D.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: folk1e
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 01:37 PM

I will probably get shot down here but.......
WHO CARES who did what to whome years ago?
If we all did that the Welsh and Scots would rebell against the English, the Native Americans, Afro Caribeans, Mexicans etc from the European Ameericans.... need I go on?
The point is that history is only usefull if we can learn from it!
It is the future that is important. It is too easy to get bogged down in the minutae of our past and be blinkered to the present.
We are at a crux at the moment, on the one side lies continued conflict with all that that entails (see the link on bio warefare) and the other is the rocky road to peace.
I do not care what the motives of Israil is nor of the Palistinians, what matters is that there IS a chance for peace.

Optomistic old Git that I am


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:08 PM

Read the link in my last post. Read the whole post even.

First of all, I am not suggesting that the Ashkenazim did not originate in that reagion, nor that they came after the people who became the "Palestinians". I am saying that it is very probable that they both are the same ethnic group, but just different branches of that group, and that they both originate from there at the same time.

Secondly, genetic studies have shown that the people who became the "Palestinians" are more closely related to the Ashkenazim than they are to "Arabs", and that the Ashkenazim are more closely related to the "Palestinians" than they are to non-Jewish Europeans.

The term "Arab" in most cases, does not refer to a person's genetic ancestry. These days it is mostly used to refer to people who speak Arabic. The Bedoins are more closely related (genetically) to the Arabs, but the other Palestinians have a very similar genetic history to the Ashkenazim.

In other words, there were people in the area who were not Jews when the Arabs showed up in that area. Those people are (some of) the ancestors of the people we know today as "Palestinians". These people predate Arabs in the region.

While it is true that there have been successive influxes of people from other areas over the centuries to that area, the early ancestors of the "Palestinians" and the ancestors of the Ashkenazim, the Sephardim, and the Mizrahim are very probably one and the same, and they probably originated in the area that became known as "Palestine".


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:09 PM

And Dave, your two links support what I have been saying.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:29 PM

Exactly CaroleC, You proved my point, I am not contradicting anything but you attack me as if I am. The burden of proof was supplied to you a long time ago, but you continue to argue something despite it why? I can only think it is a personality thing with you that goes beyond the debate in question.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:37 PM

And the Jews who fled to areas outside Arab countries have never been allowed to return to their homes. That is proof enough that the Arab countries were deliberately committing ethnic cleansing.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 02:54 PM

I'm not attacking you, Dave. As I said before, if you are not suggesting that the Ashkenazim preceeded the "Palestinians" in that area, we are not in substantial disagreement on that point. However, since the Ashkenazim (and Sephardim) migrated out of the area, and the Mizrahim and the "Palestinians" did not, and since the Mizrahim and the "Palesinians" and their ancestors have lived continuously in the area right up to the 20th century, this gives the Mizrahim and the "Palestinians" a greater right to call the area that became known as "Palestine" their homeland than the Ashkenazim and to some extent, the Sephardim.

And the Jews who fled to areas outside Arab countries have never been allowed to return to their homes. That is proof enough that the Arab countries were deliberately committing ethnic cleansing.

Quite possibly so.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 04:11 PM

There is a lot of controversial interpretations of the history, and one could easily find written evidence to support alternate views, but I don't think it is fair to use the word migrated, I would have said exiled by force; but that is minutiae isn't it CaroleC ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 05:14 PM

Hard to say, Dave. Some of them stayed behind (and becam Mizrahim), didn't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 08:09 PM

C. Ham - You are making some mighty big assumptions. What makes you think I'm White?

Comparing European settlers in N. America and European Jews in Palestine is comparing apples to oranges. I don't think the Europeans in North America lived through a holocaust and then turned around and took part in ethnic cleansing. Lets face it, European settlers at that time were largely uneducated and believed that they were superior. Are you saying that Jews think they are superior to Arabs?

Put both situations in perspective. What occurred in North America happened long before what happened in Palestine. You would think that intelligent people would be able to learn from the past. I would hope also that considering the discrimation that Jews have been subjected to, it would make them more humane.

I guess not.

BTW - Oil may not have been as big an issue then as it is now but you can bet that after World War II, the need for oil became very obvious. An ally in the Middle East was needed to protect the economic interest of the U.S. It was also necessary to build a strong military presence in the region. Why do you think the U.S. helps Israel?

BTW - I am Chinook from the Cowlitz band and I am both a U.S. citizen and a Canadian. I do not believe in White superiority nor do I believe that any people should be displaced. There is no justification for robbery. Thats why land claims are still being negotiated in North America.

Israelis on the other hand, continue to expand and displace other people. When the U.S. or Canadian governments try to do that, we try to stop them. What do you expect people to do, roll over and die? Of course they are going to fight to save their homes and their land.

Might is not always right.

And when people rise up, you are shocked. Grab a brain.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,JTS
Date: 21 Apr 06 - 11:45 PM

:-)

Very good Dianavan.

Very very good!


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: C. Ham
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 12:06 AM

BTW - I am Chinook from the Cowlitz band and I am both a U.S. citizen and a Canadian.

Well, as Guest JTS says, "Very good Dianavan. Very very good."

But maybe you should have stuck with Chinook, or maybe you should have stuck with Cowlitz. Everyone knows that among the Indian peoples of the Pacific Northwest, the Chinook and the Cowlitz are traditional enemies whose disputes are still being played out, although their battlefield today is the courtroom.

LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:33 AM

beardedbruce, I've had a look back at as many of your requests for documentation as I could find, and it looks to me like all of the questions you raised have been addressed and/or answered in subsequent discussion. But if you have any particular ones that you still want me to find documentation for, please let me know.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:50 AM

The Chinook and Cowlitz may have raided each other now and then but to my knowledge they were never "traditional enemies". Are you confusing the Chinook and the Chehalis?

Due to cultural genocide, the Chinook eventually integrated with the Chehalis (put on the same reserve) but the Cowlitz remained on the land and largely assimilated. The Chinook Nation encompasses many other tribes (or bands) of people living around the Columbia River. Take a look at a map.

Please don't try to tell me about my historical roots and don't ask me to display my dead grandmother. An accurate history of the Chinook is long gone but the Cowlitz remain. Its taken years for the U.S. government to even acknowlege our existence and now C. Ham thinks he knows all about us. Where did you get your info C. Ham? My grandmother told me who I am. And yes, the Chinook and the Cowlitz are presently arguing (splitting hairs) about a burial ground. This hardly makes them enemies.

Anyway, this is thread drift.

Stick to the subject, Hambone, and answer the question,

"Are you saying that Jews think they are superior to Arabs?"


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 02:00 AM

Dianavan, in Navaho culture, to say one is "abc" from the "def" band (substituting letters for actual names), would mean that one of the tribes or bands mentioned refer to the paternal line and the other tribe (or band) mentioned would refer to the maternal line. Is this the case with the people you come from? In other words, when you say you're "Chinook from the Cowlitz band", are you referring to one side of your family when you say Chinook, and the other side when you say Cowlitz? (Or in your case, I guess it would have been one side of your grandmother's family and the other side of your grandmother's family.)


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Wolfgang
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 09:01 AM

18 posts by C.Ham, 49 posts by Carol.

Carol has won.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 09:36 AM

"Everyone knows that among the Indian peoples of the Pacific Northwest, the Chinook and the Cowlitz are traditional enemies whose disputes are still being played out, although their battlefield today is the courtroom."

Everyone know that huh? LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 10:52 AM

LOL

Lacking anything of substance to contribute, Wolfgang sits on the sidelines and throws spitballs.

lololol...


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 11:36 AM

Saw a Palestinian professor on TV last night. He predicted that it won't be Israel that proves the undoing of the Palestinians, that it will be a Palestinian civil war of Islamic fundamentalists versus secular factions. He said open warfare would break out within the year, that Israel will stay out of it and that the other Arab countries will be too afraid to intervene because it would stir up Islamic versus secular factions in their own countries. The civil war will set the Palestinians back for generations to come.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:01 PM

While many Europeans are urging resumption of financial and political support for the new Palestinian government, the UN is (like the Israelis) insisting that the new terrorist government change it's policies first. Hamas is not changing, and is trying to raise cash from Moslem countries, as funds from Western donors continue to dry up. Israelis are fed up with the Palestinians, who cannot unite, or provide anyone reliable to negotiate with. The Palestinians are not happy with themselves, and the rest of the Moslem world is losing enthusiasm for a situation that never seems to get resolved, despite so many efforts to negotiate one. One outcome of all this is that by building a wall, the israelis may actually declare a defined border by themselves.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 01:04 PM

Carol C. - Its actually more complicated than that. Our history and our lineage is completely muddled due to the fact that the Cowlitz (my grandmother) stayed on the land and what remained of the Chinook were put on a reserve with their traditional enemies, the Chehalis. Just to confuse matters more, when the Europeans finally got around to trying to figure out how we were all related, they tried to fit us into a patrinlineal lineage pattern when, in fact, we were
matrilineal.

Bottom line - we all spoke Chinook (the language of trade) because it was the language that survived and due to intermarriage, we are all related. Whatever is happening in the courts today has nothing to do with the way we related in the past.

Anyway - thread drift.....

I think Guest may be right. The tug and pull between secular and fundamental Muslims has been going on for a long time. We see it now in Iraq and we have seen it in Afghanistan and in Iran. The U.S. takes full advantage of this and usually support the secularists who in turn are indebted to the West. When the people get sick of the corruption, they swing to the other side. This is not unlike America who swing between Democrats and Republicans.

I wonder what the rest of the world would think if another country decided to rescue the U.S. from the Republican, Christian Fundamentalists who keep the rest of the nation in poverty, destroy hard-won human rights, and rule with an iron hand?

Israel doesn't want to deal with Palestinian secularists or fundamentalists so where does that leave the Palestinians?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 05:04 PM

Israel doesn't want to deal with Palestinian secularists or fundamentalists so where does that leave the Palestinians?

My guess (and this ties in a bit with what Guest, 22 Apr 06 - 11:36 AM was saying) is that civil war between the different Palestinian factions is exactly what the government of Israel wants, and that it will do everything it possibly can to try to encourage such a scenario. But I suspect that, like every other strategy the government of Israel has tried so far, this one will backfire as well, and many innocent Israelis as well as Palestinians will die because of it (as always).


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST, heric
Date: 22 Apr 06 - 06:07 PM

C.Ham is STILL googling Chinook and Cowlitz, twelve hours later. Too f'ing funny!

Thread drift is the best. . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Teribus
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 03:59 AM

"Israel doesn't want to deal with Palestinian secularists or fundamentalists so where does that leave the Palestinians?"

Precisely where they have always been - listening to a lot of impossible, empty promises of jam tomorrow and totally bereft of any real leadership.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Once Famous
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 05:16 AM

Through all of the thread drift, Mudcat anti-semitism and Jew bashing disguised as anti-Israel sentiment comes through as always predictably by the usual Mudcat Jew haters.

And I mean "usual suspects" in the same manner as Joe Offer has used it.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 03:54 PM

Martin,

No one dislikes you because you are a Jew. You need to seperate your own bad acts from your heritage. The responsibility for your horrible personality belongs to you and you only. Don't smear other Jews with your vile and bigotry.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 04:01 PM

Since C. Ham doesn't seem to want to answer any questions, perhaps you can Martin.

Is it true that Jews think they are superior to Arabs?

Let me re-word that.

Do Israelis think they are superior to Palestinians?

C. Ham seems to think that might is right and that white supremacy is alive and well when it comes to territorial rights in Palestine.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 09:06 PM

CarolC,

You have not addressed my commnet

So, as of 1945 the population of 31% Jews was supposed to get 23% of the Mandate Palestine Territory. The UN resolution gave them less than that, and the Arabs still refused to agree.

Or will you declare that the borders of Turkey, determined at the same conferences, should be invalid?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 10:13 PM

Dianavan,

Martin doesn't speak for Israel. I don't see much point in discussing this with him. He's just here for the insults.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Apr 06 - 11:54 PM

Thanks for the reminder, Jack.

That comment wasn't meant as an insult to Jews.

Of course Martin and C. Ham do not speak for Jews anywhere, especially not for the Jews living in Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 06:20 AM

I don't know much about C. Ham. But I hope you are not putting him/her in the same category as Martin. Though C.Ham does toss out the rare mild attack. He/she seems willing to stick to the issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Apr 06 - 11:04 PM

So, as of 1945 the population of 31% Jews was supposed to get 23% of the Mandate Palestine Territory. The UN resolution gave them less than that, and the Arabs still refused to agree.

Considering the fact that as of 1917 the population of Palestine was only 8 percent Jewish (and the fact that in 1945, many of the European Jews in Palestine were illegal aliens), I think I can understand why the "Arabs" (the indegenous Palestinians) refused. They knew what was going to happen to them. They knew the plan was to displace them, and they had every reason and every right to not agree to be displaced.


Or will you declare that the borders of Turkey, determined at the same conferences, should be invalid?

I have no opinions at this time about whether or not I would condiser the borders of Turkey to be valid or invalid. However it certainly looks to me like you consider them invalid. Or at least you consider the decision that was made "the same conferences" with regard to how land should be allotted in Palestine to be invalid.

Personally, I wouldn't necessarily disagree with the borders as defined by the UN resolution, but clearly you do disagree with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 12:46 PM

If you examine the origins of the statistics, There was a massive influx of arabs into the region, but only after the jewish population improved irrigation, and generally raised the standard of living of the arab population.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 12:48 PM

That's entirely untrue, Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:11 PM

"The majority of the approximately 750,000 people in this multi-ethnic region were Arabic-speaking Muslims, including a Bedouin population (estimated at 103,331 at the time of the 1922 census [2] and concentrated in the Beersheba area and the region south and east of it), as well as Jews (who comprised some 11% of the total) and smaller groups of Druze, Syrians, Sudanese, Circassians, Egyptians, Greeks, and Hejazi Arabs.

In June 1922 the League of Nations passed the Palestine Mandate. The Palestine Mandate was an explicit document regarding Britain's responsibilities and powers of administration in Palestine including "secur[ing] the establishment of the Jewish national home", "

"In 1936-1939 the mandate experienced an upsurge in militant Arab nationalism that became known as the Great Uprising and, "The Arab Revolt." The revolt was triggered by increased Jewish immigration, primarily Jews that were ejected by the Nazi regime in Germany as well as rising anti-Semitism throughout Europe. The revolt was led or co-opted by the Grand Mufti, Haj Amin Al-Husseini and his Husseini family. The Arabs felt they were being marginalized in their own country, but in addition to non-violent strikes, they resorted to violence. Husseini's men killed more Arabs than Jews, using the revolt as an excuse to settle accounts with rival clans. The Jewish organization Etzel replied with its own terrorist campaign, with marketplace bombings and other violent acts that also killed hundreds. Eventually, the uprising was put down by the British using severe measures. After he was implicated in killing the British district commissioner for the Galilee, Haj Amin El Husseini fled first to Lebanon, then to Iraq, and finally to Germany in late 1941.

The British placed restrictions on Jewish land purchases in the remaining land, directly contradicting the provision of the Mandate which said "the Administration of Palestine... shall encourage, in cooperation with the Jewish Agency... close settlement by Jews on the land, including State lands and waste lands not acquired for public purposes." A similar proposal to limit immigration in 1931 had been termed a violation of the mandate by the League of Nations, but by 1939 the League of Nations was defunct. According to the Israeli side, the British had by 1949 allotted over 8500 acres (34 km²) to Arabs, and about 4000 acres (16 km²) to Jews."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Mandate_of_Palestine




"Or at least you consider the decision that was made "the same conferences" with regard to how land should be allotted in Palestine to be invalid."

No, BUT if you call into question the legitimacy of one set of borders determined by treaty, you call into question ALL the borders determined by that treaty. If you want, we can renegotiate ALL the borders of the areas ceded by the Ottoman Empire to the Allied Powers after WW I- INCLUDING Syria, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, and Suadi Arabia. But no picking on JUST Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:24 PM

"Or at least you consider the decision that was made "the same conferences" with regard to how land should be allotted in Palestine to be invalid."

Actually, I was pointing out, that by the TREATY, the Mandate Palestine area that was to be the Jewish homeland INCLUDED the ENTIRE West bank.... I would be happy to use those borders, though I think you would not. The UN borders of 1949 were rejected by the Arabs at that time, so they should not be used.

But WHY are the pre-1967 borders so much more valid than any of the others?
blue clickies on my post of
Date: 20 Apr 06 - 04:31 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:38 PM

Last week, the Jordanian government asked Hamas to postpone a visit by the Palestinian Foreign Minister Mahmoud Al-Zahhar after announcing they had found Syrian-supplied weapons that Hamas had smuggled into Jordan.

"The spokesman, Nasser Judeh, said the latest weapons were smuggled into Jordan by Hamas members in Syria and were intended for use in terror attacks against Jordanian targets including Jordanian officials.

"The security apparatus seized weapons, TNT explosives, T4, and missiles to target some foundations and a number of officials," Judeh said.

Last week Hamas leaders denied smuggling the weapons. Hamas leaders said they were focused on fighting Israel and had no intention of interfering in other Arab states."


http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/04/25/jordan.hamas/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:44 PM

No, BUT if you call into question the legitimacy of one set of borders determined by treaty, you call into question ALL the borders determined by that treaty.

If we are talking about the borders that the UN established in the partition plan, I am not the one who calls their legitimacy into question. It is the government of Israel (as well as you, it would appear) who calls them into question.

I think adhering to the UN partition plan borders is an excellent idea.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:52 PM

And I think that adhering to the San Remo conference borders of the Mandate Palestine Territory is an excellent idea. So, if the borders of Turkey as determined by that treaty are ok, why not the borders of Israel?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:56 PM

Actually, I was pointing out, that by the TREATY, the Mandate Palestine area that was to be the Jewish homeland INCLUDED the ENTIRE West bank.... I would be happy to use those borders, though I think you would not. The UN borders of 1949 were rejected by the Arabs at that time, so they should not be used.

Are you saying that the borders you mentioned before... the ones that you said would give the Jews only about 30 percent of mandate Palestine, allotted all of the West Bank for the Jewish homeland?

You said that these borders were rejected by the "Arabs" at the time, so they should not be used either, if we use your reasoning.

But WHY are the pre-1967 borders so much more valid than any of the others?

As I've said before... I don't really think they are more valid than the UN partition plan borders. In fact, I think they are far less valid. But the 1967 borders seem to be the compromise that has the best chance of succeeding.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 02:58 PM

And I think that adhering to the San Remo conference borders of the Mandate Palestine Territory is an excellent idea. So, if the borders of Turkey as determined by that treaty are ok, why not the borders of Israel?

Because they were rejected by the "Arabs", and according to your own reasoning, that is enough reason to reject them.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: beardedbruce
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM

"You said that these borders were rejected by the "Arabs" at the time, so they should not be used either, if we use your reasoning."

Actually, they were the LAST agreed upon borders by both sides.


"After the expulsion of the Greek forces by the Turkish army under the command of Kemal Atatürk (Kemal Atatürk: more facts about this subject) , there appeared to be a need to renew Treaty of Sèvres (Treaty of Sèvres: the treaty of sèvres of august 10, 1920, made peace between the allied and associated...
[follow hyperlink for more...]) . In October 20th, 1922 the peace conference was opened, and after harsh debates, in February, 4th it was interrupted. Reopening in April, 23rd the treaty was signed in July, 24th after a total of 8 months of long and arduous discussions."

The UN borders were NEVER agreed to by the Arabs- But the borders defined by the 1922 Conference WERE. So, they are far more valid.


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 25 Apr 06 - 03:18 PM

Since my statements are based on reports made to the British Administration and United Nations (then League of Nations) from Interim Report June 1921 and subsequent reports. Including statements on how the arab infant death rates were lower and education levels improved to higher standards than other countries due to money and industry of the Zionist movement. A matter of public record, and available via the UK Gov records and UN. Care to back up your allegation that its entirely false CaroleC?


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Subject: RE: BS: suicide bomber murders 9 in Tel Aviv
From: Stringsinger
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 01:16 PM

Terrorism is one of those blanket words that really have little meaning because it can be interpreted pretty much to mean anything.

Suicide bombers are sick fanatics. Attacking the country that harbors them will only cause WWIII.

The solution is for Israel, the US and other countries to look at their own role in propagating the craziness of the Islamic reaction.
Then maybe something realistic can be done to stem this crazy tide.

I don't think that Islam is ready for world domination. I'm not so sure about the so-called Christian foreign policy of the Bush Administration. There runs through the history of Islam a certain practical streak amidst the fanaticism that leads them to know that Sharia, as rigid and nuts as it is, can't apply to all peoples. The history of the Crusades brought that point home.

Frank Hamilton


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