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BS: Book of Judas

akenaton 08 Apr 06 - 04:35 AM
John O'L 08 Apr 06 - 04:02 AM
Les in Chorlton 08 Apr 06 - 03:13 AM
GUEST 07 Apr 06 - 09:56 PM
John O'L 07 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM
Bobert 07 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM
bobad 07 Apr 06 - 09:04 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 08:54 PM
Kaleea 07 Apr 06 - 08:35 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 07:50 PM
catspaw49 07 Apr 06 - 07:45 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 07:31 PM
bobad 07 Apr 06 - 07:22 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 07:03 PM
catspaw49 07 Apr 06 - 06:57 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 06:52 PM
Bill Hahn//\\ 07 Apr 06 - 06:30 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 04:44 PM
GUEST,AR282 07 Apr 06 - 04:39 PM
akenaton 07 Apr 06 - 04:32 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 04:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 07 Apr 06 - 04:23 PM
TheBigPinkLad 07 Apr 06 - 04:06 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 04:01 PM
Q (Frank Staplin) 07 Apr 06 - 03:59 PM
akenaton 07 Apr 06 - 03:52 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 03:34 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 03:29 PM
akenaton 07 Apr 06 - 03:23 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 03:18 PM
TheBigPinkLad 07 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM
GUEST 07 Apr 06 - 02:09 PM
TheBigPinkLad 07 Apr 06 - 12:37 PM
the one 07 Apr 06 - 12:14 PM
Kweku 07 Apr 06 - 09:29 AM
Arne 07 Apr 06 - 07:25 AM
John O'L 07 Apr 06 - 05:31 AM
Pied Piper 07 Apr 06 - 05:18 AM
Kweku 07 Apr 06 - 05:03 AM
akenaton 07 Apr 06 - 04:15 AM
Paul Burke 07 Apr 06 - 04:01 AM
John O'L 07 Apr 06 - 03:59 AM
heric 07 Apr 06 - 03:31 AM
GUEST 07 Apr 06 - 02:32 AM
Little Hawk 07 Apr 06 - 01:38 AM
Bert 07 Apr 06 - 01:31 AM
Arne 07 Apr 06 - 12:41 AM
Arne 07 Apr 06 - 12:31 AM
heric 07 Apr 06 - 12:07 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: akenaton
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 04:35 AM

:0)


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: John O'L
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 04:02 AM

"What this Jesus doesn't understand is that it's the meek who are the problem..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Les in Chorlton
Date: 08 Apr 06 - 03:13 AM

It is time for the writing of an appropriate spoof. The Gospel according to ............................. St Wayne.

After all Waynes World was a truly inspirational movie.

Please, The Life of Brian was another truly inspirational movie but it was not about religion it was about far left politics


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:56 PM

This news is gonna kill Chuck Heston.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM

I think it's interesting that the Dead Sea Scrolls and the Nag Hamadi scrolls were found at virtually the same time. (And what a time it was!)

Coincidence?
Of course, how could it be other?


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Bobert
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:07 PM

Well, the way I see this this has beena bad day for the fundamentalists who believe strongly that there has to be a boogie man to hate...

Jesus told His disciples of the future... How could the "future" come about had it not been for Judas???

This part of the story is more consistent with my Faith, based on a loving God, than one that has to have a boogie man in the equation...

And this may sound wierd, but I have never had any ill-fealings toward Judas... I mean, as a follower of Christ, I have tried to put myself in Judas's shoes during my life time and this was the only conclusion I could come up with... I mean, all of the disciples loved and believed deeply in Jesus...

Yeah, I hope this very important manuscript will get those who have grown up in Faith based on having to have someone to hate to rethink the basis of their Faith...

In the name of Jesus, long live Judas...

Just MO....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: bobad
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:04 PM

God knows it's needed.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:54 PM

And no harm in that, I'd say. It might stimulate some new thought on the matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Kaleea
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 08:35 PM

Does anyone remember the 60 minutes interview several years back with a man who was on the panel of scholars continuing to study the Dead Sea Scrolls? [the dead sea scrolls-remember them? they were found over time 1947-56--why has nothing yet been published?] The man was part of the next generation of scholars, as the first bunch has been dying off.   I have not been able to forget his remarks. He said that if & when the dead sea scrolls are published, it will blow modern christianity as we know it out of the water.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:50 PM

Yeah, I knew that would really tax your powers of decision, Spaw... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:45 PM

Ya' know Hawk, that's a tough choice......Sunscreen or Religion.......................Gimmee the sunscreen in case the religious folks are right and I wind up in hell.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:31 PM

If I may paraphrase Jesus, "the gullible will always be with us". ;-)

If they weren't buying religion, they'd be buying soft drinks, sunscreen, viagra, an illegal war, or diet drinks.

You're not in this to help the gullible! You're just in it to push your own favorite point of view, bobad. Admit it.

There are lots of things that CAN'T be proven right now (like whether Jesus existed or not), may never be provable, and they are entirely worth discussing, regardless. To discuss them favorably does not necessarily indicate that one believes in the Rapture, the immaculate conception, eternal hellfire, or various other strange stuff like that which is believed by some christians (and not all of them by any means).

Your mistake, I think, is to assume that "religious people" are all, unlike you, thoroughly gullible and easily misled. Ha! If only life were that simple.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: bobad
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:22 PM

"Why does anyone have to prove any of it? Does everything worth discussing have to be proven?"

One reason may be to protect the gullible (usually the least educated and the poorest members of society) from the hucksters and charlatans who are are only too eager to separate them from their money by making claims that are unproveable.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:03 PM

There's no way to be proven wrong about it, either.

Why does anyone have to prove any of it? Does everything worth discussing have to be proven? Or is that just a way of making fun of people who like discussing something that you don't happen to be in sympathy with for some reason?

(the "you" I am referring to is not Spaw...it's a generalized "you")

Schweitzer speaks wisely. He has compassion for us fallible humans with our fickle and arbitrary opinions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: catspaw49
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:57 PM

I think I covered the truth angle..........There isn't any that is completely verifiable which is why I tried to diffuse this sucker awhile back but alas, we just love to argue about religion and the unknowable. I suppose it is because there is no way to bne proven right...we simply claim it to be!

I won't quote Schweitzer again, just myself:

HISTORY, whether of wars and cultures or simply of the ideas and philosophies of the ages is written and passed down to future generations by the Winners.

It is impossible to ascribe any truth to most of the wonderful tales in the Bible so why would I believe this new find......especially when you consider where it has been and what it has gone through.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:52 PM

Truth in itself is a good thing. Truth that is lit by the inner light of a powerful meaning is even better.

That is to say, one can amass facts about anything...but how useful are those facts when no meaning or purpose can be ascribed to them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Bill Hahn//\\
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 06:30 PM

I have nothing to add to this discussion other than I happened on it and also the news articles re: Judas Gospel.   

In thinking about it I can only say---who knows. After all in criminal and civil litigation we find that eye witness accounts are not always that accurate. The Gospels were not even eye witness to anything.

Given today's science even DNA would not help in these circumstances because it cannot devolve motives and meanings---only facts. Facts we know---birth and death of Jesus. Though it would be nice to have some DNA history there to put things into some perspective.   

Sorry if this sounds a bit sacrilegious---but everyone seems to be looking for truth here.

Bill Hahn


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:44 PM

It isn't a question of win or lose, Guest. We were just talking about that. This is not a competition here between Jesus and Judas, okay?


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:39 PM

Judas must be the greatest human ever, according to Christian logic. Without Judas there would have been no crucifixion and therefore no atonement. Then for saving humanity, Judas spends eternity in hell while Christ only had to spend three days there. So, who, really is greater?


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:32 PM

I know what you mean LH, I feel like that too at times.

Is the internet just a toy designed to torment us on our impotence?
You're a nice guy George ...Good luck to you..Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:31 PM

I prefer to play ping pong without keeping score, BPL. ;-)

(seriously...I do...it's a wonderful game when you play just for the fun of playing, and never keep score at all)

I don't like win/lose situations much. If I lose I feel bad...if I win I feel bad for the other person. Either way, it sucks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:23 PM

Universal sufferage

I don't know if that's a typo. Anyway it's a pretty good variant that sums the system up pretty well.

As for this "Judas Gospel" - remember, they had writers like Dan Brown back in the old days as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:06 PM

21 - 10 ... OK, best of three?


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:01 PM

Well, they're all debatable matters aren't they, ake? Would you really rather live in Judea in the year 10 BC? If I had a time machine, I could grant you that wish.

You know, I think that most of us argue not because we are so devoted to "truth" as we like to imagine, but just because we get caught up in the game. It's like ping pong. You hit the ball over the net...BAP!...it comes back...WHAP!....you hit it again.

These threads are like that. All of them.

It's silly. I end up feeling contempt for all of us after awhile, myself included. Just a bunch of big mouths raving on to infinity, with no other purpose than to "win" by hitting the last ball over the net.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Q (Frank Staplin)
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:59 PM

Attempts at interpretion are futile unless one is is familiar with classical languages and has researched biblical history. Most of what is readily available is spin, to use a modern term; pre-digested to support a particular synthesis of fact and fiction. As such, the new testament and its contributed material is interesting reading, but scarcely fact.

I remember some discussions from early school days; A Jewish friend regarded Jesus as a rabble-rouser and probable early communist (this was the late 1930's). Not Jewish myself, but the little I have read since could support this interpretation. Perhaps if I was cognizant of Jewish and Roman writings of the period, my opinion might be worthy of consideration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:52 PM

Status of women improved?   motherhood and the nurturing of children now despised!
Universal sufferage ...Don't make me laugh, we all have the vote but can only vote for one thing!
Science and medicine ...we create new "plagues" almost weekly ,medical research is now a gold ruch for the drug companies.

But there you go I'm the eternal optimist.

I look forwardc to the day when we move back to our holes in the ground ...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:34 PM

We have improved some in 2,000 years...in regards to ethical matters such as slavery, universal suffrage, the status of women, our grasp of science and medicine, and any number of other areas.

The primary way in which we find ourselves in a worse condition than 2,000 years ago is that the world population has grown enormously and our technological prowess has badly damaged global ecology, and spawned terrible weapons. Morally, we've probably improved overall, but materially we face unprededented problems.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:29 PM

Or in the name of profit?

Or "democracy"? (ha ha)

Or "freedom"? (whose freedom?)

Or patriotism?

Or "success"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:23 PM

I don't think humanity has improved much in 2000 yrs .
I think I agree with Big Pink most of what is passed on is destructive mythology.
Christ was just a philosopher in a long line of philosophers.
The difference is that Christs ideas were taken over by the poowerful and used as a means of control.
It continues to this day all over the world, great wrongs carried out in the name of god. Doesn't much matter which one....Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:18 PM

What sort of twat interprets every ancient religious tale as literally as he would interpret an instruction booklet for assembling a refrigerator? ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM

What happens to your children if you teach them to be self serving?

In order to answer that, I'd have to teach them to be self-serving, make observations and then get back to you.

Will they come back crying to every time life doesn't go their way?

ditto previous answer.

Historically speaking, [?]I can't think of a better role model then Jesus.

What sort of twat takes a stick to moneylenders and whithers a fig tree because the fruit is not to his liking?

Whose had a bigger influence and what does it say about man for 2000 yr.s?

(a)Jethro Tull, Alexander Flemming, John Crapper, (all real too I might add) ... (b) "you can fool some of the people all of the time ..." etc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:15 PM

Pied, you are a very literal-minded person. Yes, Krishna as he is now depicted in Hindu art, etc, is clearly a mythological god figure. However, I suspect that there was a real such physical person in ancient times in India who got the ball rolling, so to speak, by being a pretty remarkable teacher (like Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, and all the others) and then the embellishments and mythology about Krishna were gradually added on and enlarged upon after the fact by the next however many generations of his followers. THAT is what I mean when I assert that Krisha existed. He most probably did, but I don't mean that he had blue skin or whatever other extraordinary stuff you see written about him in the Hindu legends...

Paul Burke - NEVER make the mistake that people who like to talk about Jesus and are impressed by his teachings must necessarily be Christians. That is not so. Jesus is tremendously respected and revered by a great many people who are not Christians at all, but are independent thinkers, or people in any variety of non-Christian traditions, specially those of the East. Muslims, by the way, also highly respect Jesus. He's one of their most important prophets, but not as important in their view as Mohammed, obviously.

If your past has filled you with anger or contempt for the Christian church (as it has many), then that will obviously skew your views and reactions every time the subject of Jesus comes up, won't it? That's what's called having a chip on your shoulder. We've all got a few of those.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 02:09 PM

But Big Pink... What happens to your children if you teach them
      to be self serving? Will they come back crying to every time
      life doesn't go their way? Historically speaking, I can't
      think of a better role model then Jesus. Whose had a bigger
      influence and what does it say about man for 2000 yr.s?

         Roanoke


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:37 PM

It is unfortunate that a few bunch of hoodlums and rogues, have defamed christianity so much to the extent that, men donot believe in the divinity of Yesu Christo.

The hoodlums are the bastards that poison children with mythical bollocks and damn them to a life of servitude.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: the one
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:14 PM

go do what have to, then satan entered into him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Kweku
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 09:29 AM

It is unfortunate that a few bunch of hoodlums and rogues, have defamed christianity so much to the extent that, men donot believe in the divinity of Yesu Christo. I remember the time that I decided never to believe in the bible again because of its controversies.

My advice to everyone is "donot condem or mock christianity but seek a close relationship with your Almighty. It might be the God of the Israelites or Israelis,or from Asia. the choice is yours.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Arne
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 07:25 AM

LH:

I've known people who've been clinically dead on the operating table or elsewhere, and then revived...and some of them had spiritual experiences that left them changed for the rest of their lives...much for the better, I might add. Typical effects: they lose their fear of dying, they no longer think of death as "the end", they become more loving, more accepting, happier, and less judgemental. Those sound like Christ-like qualities, don't they?

Yeah, perhaps. But we know little about what Jesus was like after the resurrection (the Gospels describe him before his little tete-a-tete with the Romans). Why would such a person ned resurrection to effect such a change? Or did he instead change for the worse after his ordeal?   ;-)

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:31 AM

That's your opinion, Paul. The sermon on the mount was just a regurgitaion of the ten commandments. Jesus reaffirming his Jewishness. Re-enacting his bar mitzvah perhaps, I dunno.

Some say the Crucifiction is what it's all about, others read more into the resurrection, and yet others see the immaculate conception of his mum as being the cucial element.

When he lobbed in Jerusalem he was saying that each person has their own individual relationship with God, and I don't see that he ever deviated from that essential stance. I think that is what was important about him, but that kinda makes the church hierachy redundant. That's why the Pharisees had to get rid of him and that's why Rome had to re-invent him with mythology.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Pied Piper
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:18 AM

Jesus' name survives because a crumbling empire required Christianity to get the Bureaucracy and the Army pulling in the same direction.
Little niggle LH; Buddha, Zoroaster and Jesus were almost certainly real people ware as Krishna is a mythical entity.

PP


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Kweku
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 05:03 AM

i thought judas wrote the book himself,apparently it is somebody else.

National Geographic said the author of the gospel of Judas believed that Judas Iscariot alone understood the true significance of Christ's teachings.http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/A641817E-B5C1-48C6-9960-1FA06AB27654.htm

If Jesus existed, it's his teachings that make him one of the world's greatest teachers, not human sacrifice (which as I've said before was no sacrifice at all if he was a god).


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: akenaton
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:15 AM

arne...Personally I find the song you posted much more inspirational than any of the gospels.

Nearly four hundred years and we've learned nothing.
The land still being exploited by the rich to the detriment of the poor...Ake


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 04:01 AM

Wierd lot, you Christians. All this banging on about which was more important, the nativity, the crucifixion, or the resurrection, and not one mention of the sermon on the mount.

If Jesus existed, it's his teachings that make him one of the world's greatest teachers, not human sacrifice (which as I've said before was no sacrifice at all if he was a god).


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: John O'L
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:59 AM

That's a very interesting place, heric.

While tooling around various pages, I found this:

"Last night I was at this dope ass club getting my buzz on, when two fine ass bitches walk right by me. A player has got to play so it was time to spin some game. I darted in and within minutes the ladies were totally digging my shit. Then, out of nowhere, comes Jesus. JC pulls his water into wine shtick, totally name drops that his dad is God, and the next thing I know the skanks are heading back to his crib. No lie, I am going to fuck his shit up real soon."


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: heric
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 03:31 AM

I believe it was originally presented by the author of this unusual web page.


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 02:32 AM

Yes, evidence for the existence of Jesus exists outside of the bible.

As mentioned above, there's the Gospel of Thomas, etc.

This is just more evidence that he did exist.

The Book of Judas informs us that Judas was not a traitor but part of the divine plan.

P.S. I'm not a Christian (not even baptised) but I believe Jesus existed. I'm not his follower. I happen to think we walk side by side. I also think that what passes for Christianity today is a shame.

heric - Where did you find such a strange communication? Can you imagine what has been lost (stolen) in Iraq?


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Little Hawk
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 01:38 AM

The crucifixion, naturally, is totally believable. We know it could be done and was done frequently in those days. I never said it wasn't believable, I just said that I think it was a far less significant matter, spiritually speaking, than the resurrection in terms of the symbolic messages involved, and that its meaning has possibly been misconstrued by the Christian churches. (this is all assuming the resurrection did in fact occur, and we have no way to know if it did or not at this point)

The resurrection remains in the area of speculation. If it did occur, it was a much bigger deal than the crucifixion, in my opinion. He could have just as well died in any variety of ways...but to rise again...THAT gets a disciple's attention! If you can do that, they know you're for real and it wasn't all just a bunch of wonderful talk and some impressive hands-on healings that could have just been...uh... "the power of suggestion?" ..."spontaneous remission?" ...whatever... ;-)

I think he may have arranged it partly because it was the ONLY way to get some of those apostles to really believe what he was telling them, and so they could break through to a higher level of awareness. It would be shocking. If you saw it, you would simply never see life and death the same way again afterward.

I've known people who've been clinically dead on the operating table or elsewhere, and then revived...and some of them had spiritual experiences that left them changed for the rest of their lives...much for the better, I might add. Typical effects: they lose their fear of dying, they no longer think of death as "the end", they become more loving, more accepting, happier, and less judgemental. Those sound like Christ-like qualities, don't they?


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Bert
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 01:31 AM

...will YOU be remembered 2,000 years from now?...

Of course, people will still be singing "Size doesn't Matter" *GRIN*


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Arne
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:41 AM

LH:

I consider it a distinct possibility that he did resurrect, but I can't say for sure, can I?

Well and fine, but which would you say is more believable (or more probably true): The crucifixion or the resurrection? That was my point.

And neither can anyone else.

Quite true. Can we agree that it's unsettled? I've no problem with that.

I'll take neither Rosselson nor the wee tykes, by the way.... ;-)

Well, it depends on what kind of mood I'm in. DeDanaan's Hibernian Rhapsody may appeal to me more on some days, or some Freighthoppers, House Band, Mangsen and Gillette, or Gordon Bok, just to name a few. Really, depends, but Rosselson (or Rosselson by Gaughan) seems to hit the spot when I'm finished with the newspaper nowadays.   ;-)

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: Arne
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:31 AM

heric:

Sure seems a bit whacky that the substance of writings from antiquity can be owned, sold, and locked away like that.

I dunno. But did you know that if you gathered all the extant wood from the cross, you'd have enough lumber to build Noah's ark?

The Catholic Church was quite tight-fisted about the Shroud of Turin for many years for some reason ... but nonetheless, some non-Church-sanctioned investigators managed to do some analysis, and critiquing of the positive reports, and the "mystery" dimmed just a bit....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Book of Judas
From: heric
Date: 07 Apr 06 - 12:07 AM

Well now here's strange web page hanging out there in google-land.


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Mudcat time: 17 February 10:12 PM EST

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