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BS: Why no new Iraq thread?

michaelr 27 Mar 06 - 12:03 AM
GUEST 27 Mar 06 - 12:58 AM
The Fooles Troupe 27 Mar 06 - 08:01 AM
Teribus 27 Mar 06 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,AR282 27 Mar 06 - 09:47 PM
Teribus 27 Mar 06 - 10:28 PM
Ron Davies 28 Mar 06 - 12:00 AM
Little Hawk 28 Mar 06 - 01:25 AM
Teribus 28 Mar 06 - 10:40 AM
Alba 28 Mar 06 - 12:33 PM
The Fooles Troupe 28 Mar 06 - 05:39 PM
Peace 28 Mar 06 - 07:43 PM
Teribus 28 Mar 06 - 10:59 PM
Ron Davies 28 Mar 06 - 11:24 PM
Peace 28 Mar 06 - 11:29 PM
Teribus 29 Mar 06 - 08:33 AM
Alba 29 Mar 06 - 09:40 AM
Arne 29 Mar 06 - 11:01 PM
Little Hawk 29 Mar 06 - 11:23 PM
Ron Davies 29 Mar 06 - 11:26 PM
Arne 30 Mar 06 - 02:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 30 Mar 06 - 07:46 AM
The Fooles Troupe 30 Mar 06 - 08:18 AM
GUEST,TIA 30 Mar 06 - 01:06 PM
Peace 30 Mar 06 - 05:35 PM
Teribus 30 Mar 06 - 11:08 PM
Ron Davies 30 Mar 06 - 11:23 PM
Ron Davies 30 Mar 06 - 11:27 PM
Arne 31 Mar 06 - 01:39 AM
Little Hawk 31 Mar 06 - 01:45 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: michaelr
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 12:03 AM

100! Not bad for a "no new" thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 12:58 AM

teribus - Are we talking about the area in and around Samarra?

If so, where did you get the idea that there were 25 imbedded journalists? From what I understand, not even aid workers have been allowed inside.

From Rueters: "US and Iraqi military groups have prevented the entrance of local NGOs as well as the media to show the reality of human rights violation inside it," he added.

According to al-Daraji, no citizens have been allowed to leave the city, some 120 km north of the capital, Baghdad, since the operation began on 16 March. US forces along with Iraqi commandos say the operation is necessary to flush out insurgents in the area."


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 08:01 AM

Where's Wally?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 01:44 PM

GUEST 27 Mar 06 - 12:58 AM

The location of the incident in the article you provided a link for, the 'village' of Isshaq, is East-South-East of Samarra. Operation Swarmer comprised of a 10 mile by 10 mile area to the North-East of Samarra. Population of the area 7km round Isshaq just under 16,000, population contained within the operating area of Operation Swarmer was reported as being 1500.

There are 25 accredited journalists embedded with the 101st Airborne, there is a site that gives you figures for the numbers embedded with other units. As far as I know Aid Workers and NGO's have never been embedded with troops on operations.

Keeping NGO's and Journalists out of an area populated with only 1500 people would not be much of a cover up tactic, unless of course they think they could keep them out forever. Widely reported that 104 were arrested, no shots fired, no casualties, no fatalities, so in a couple of weeks time somebody can bimble in there and do count. If the number is markedly less than 1396 then there might be something worth having a look at.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 09:47 PM

>>Was anybody killed during Operation Swarmer? - The answer to that is no.<<

Which I prefer to think is true. I've heard the same thing, it's a big flop. A big hullabaloo about nothing. Grandstanding by Bush to look like he's doing something other than sending out troops to surround an area and take all the men and boys as prisoners and call them "insurgents." You'd think if there were really any trained insurgents fighters there, then we would see some carnage however slight but these reports strongly indicate that the Americans are meeting no resistance at all. No shots fired, no deaths, no casualities, no booby-traps, no ambush, no IEDs. This means there is no resistance. So who are they arrresting?

Otoh, this administration lies and spins so much that who knows who the Americans or American-backed Iraqis may have killed? But, from what I hear, Swarmer is largely a waste of time as anything other than a public relations gag.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Teribus
Date: 27 Mar 06 - 10:28 PM

GUEST,AR282,

They did find IED's and one of them had to be set off, in place damaging a vehicle. They did find 11 caches of weapons, expolsives, bomb making equipment, shoulder fire AA missiles and other materials amounting to a heap of stuff awfully useful to an insurgent, but not so healthy for the Iraqi population at large.

The Operation was directed by Iraqi Security Forces acting on information received from the local population - Anybody fond of making Vietnam comparisons with regard to Iraq who has read anything by a Vietnamese General called Giap might realise the significance of that. Certainly not a flop, or a waste of time, by any standard, but that would have to depend on whose side you're on.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:00 AM

Teribus--

Fascinating that you still haven't found time to tell us what "victory" in Iraq will consist of this time--since the last "victory" has not prevented about 2200 "Coalition" deaths--and uncounted dead Iraqis.

Your answer will be particularly of interest since you have said we should stay in Iraq "as long as it takes"--i.e. til "victory". And evidently it makes no difference to you how many are killed until this elusive and ever-changing "victory".


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 01:25 AM

There may be bigger stuff ahead than Iraq, Ron. The thing to do when a "victory" doesn't pan out is to seek a new and fresh victory somewhere else. This has long been a pattern of conquering empires. Watch for it.

There's oil out there that's not under American jurisdiction yet. There's a lot of it in Iran and South America. There's more oil in the Caspian, and plans to move it by pipeline through Afghanistan to the Indian Ocean.

Iraq is just one step on the way. It wasn't about WMDs. It wasn't about 911. It wasn't about Osama. It wasn't about democracy. It was about strategic regions, empire building, and oil....

Oh, and drugs. Let's not forget drugs. Afghanistan is now growing its poppy fields again, full scale. The international drug trade resumes...and the CIA is happy. Wall Street is happy. The World Bank is happy. Those crazy frikkin' Taliban had shut it all down...blasted religious fanatics! You can't depend on people like that to be sane and rational about business. There was a while there when just about the only drug production in Afghanistan was happening in the American-backed Northern Alliance-controlled sector. Well, happy days are here again, because all of Afghanistan is supplying the hard stuff to the world now. Yippee. Every major dealer in North America owes Bush a big thank you for that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 10:40 AM

Ron Davies - 28 Mar 06 - 12:00 AM

If you bothered to check Ron you would find that I have always predicted that in both Afghanistan and in Iraq the US would find themselves committed for a long, long time. My example that I quoted was Malaya 1947 to 1964.

Little Hawk - 28 Mar 06 - 01:25 AM

Re your post - What complete and utter rubbish.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Alba
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 12:33 PM

Well now, that's you told LH.
I, however, found your opinion on the subject interesting.
(It is alright to find other people's opinions interesting I hope)
If I have offended any Expert on the current conflict in Iraq and Afghanistan on this Thread by that admission it was not my intention.
Then again what would I know, as I have been told by an expert that the Mudcat Member 'Alba' (that would be Me) is incapable of independent thought, is bias, predjudice, and a pathetic bigot who would rather people died in Conflict.

You got off light LH, you just got told your post was rubbish and that doesn't count, in my book anyway, as a total public character assasination.
Someone must like you and thus you were spared.

J


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 05:39 PM

"Little Hawk - 28 Mar 06 - 01:25 AM

Re your post - What complete and utter rubbish. "


Yeah, rubbish - but nice profitable rubbish...


"I have been told by an expert that the Mudcat Member 'Alba' (that would be Me) is incapable of independent thought, is bias, predjudice, and a pathetic bigot who would rather people died in Conflict."

I'm supposed to be a Leftie, but I'm actually ambudexterous!

So is Mr T - he uses both hands!

Surely he couldn't get that silly using only one...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 07:43 PM

"I have been told by an expert that the Mudcat Member 'Alba' (that would be Me) is incapable of independent thought, is bias, predjudice, and a pathetic bigot who would rather people died in Conflict."

Whoever said that don't know beans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Teribus
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 10:59 PM

Very quick snap-shot of LH's Post,

"There's oil out there that's not under American jurisdiction yet. There's a lot of it in Iran and South America."

The usual story about 'evil America', I have asked a number of times how they are supposed to achieve this. None of America's detractors have ever explained how the US does it. Oil/Natural Gas is a natural resource, a commodity, the price of which is controlled by an international market.

"There's more oil in the Caspian, and plans to move it by pipeline through Afghanistan to the Indian Ocean."

Oh yes, Don F's much favoured TAP Project which even to the Arab Development Bank is a dead duck. Maybe Little Hawk doesn't know it but there are two very large pipelines exporting oil from Azerbaijan (through Russia, Georgia to the Black Sea and another through Turkey to the Mediterranean) there are five, I believe taking oil and gas from the eastern side of the Caspian north and west into Russia. The TAP was originally proposed to satisfy India's growing fuel needs, the project is now no longer favoured because India will be getting it's supplies from Iran via another route. That is a project that is up and running that pipeline is being built the TAP is not.

"Afghanistan is now growing its poppy fields again, full scale."

Well actually no it is not, in fact less fields under cultivation no than before. Only problem is that they have been enjoying bumber harvests so the yield per acre is greater, and programmes are underway to convince the farmers to grow other crops.

"The international drug trade resumes..."

Is Little Hawk trying to tell us that it ever stopped while the Taleban were in power, or any other time? Oh yes I see he did:

"Those crazy frikkin' Taliban had shut it all down...blasted religious fanatics! You can't depend on people like that to be sane and rational about business."

Absolute rubbish, of course they didn't shut it all down, they relied on it for their revenue, and still do to a certain extent. The Taleban may have decreed that all production must stop, as has the present Afghan Government, but that is as far as it went. Even at the height of their power the Taleban never were in a position to govern Afghanistan or impose their will on the warlords and the tribes. Oh, LH, the largest poppy growing area in Afghanistan - Helmand right in the middle of the Pashtun Taleban heartland.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:24 PM

Teribus--

Still waiting, with the patience of Job---which dealing with you seems to require--for you to tell us what exactly "victory" in Iraq would consist of this time, since the last one does not seem to have prevented over 2200 "Coalition" deaths and the deaths of uncounted Iraqis.

If you don't give an answer I'll be forced unwillingly to the conclusion that you have no idea--unsurprising, considering your track record of error. You are, admittedly, in good company there--your mighty leader (Bush) has no idea either. (Yes I know you're from the UK).

However, if Bush and the Bushites have no idea why soldiers should fight and possibly die in Iraq, it will become progressively more difficult to find the cannon fodder you need-- and even more difficult to persuade the US and UK publics to support a never-ending, tragic, horrendously expensive, useless war, only begun thanks to a despicable propaganda campaign. So far you have given us no reason why the "Coalition" forces should stay in Iraq--beyond absurdly ridiculous attempted parallels with Hitler--feeble even for you.

I'd also like you to tell us why you judge that the parallel of Yugoslavia with Iraq is not apt.

And I see no progress towards addressing Sunni concerns--which is the only way to defuse the insurgency. I would think even you would know that the "body count game" will not cut it.

Rather than progress, the most recent news is that the Shiites have withdrawn from negotiations towards a unity government--in protest against a supposedly successful raid--the sort which Bush apologists are trumpeting as indication Iraqis are taking over operations--which appears to have killed civilians.

The more days go by, the less likely "Iraq" will survive--since the sectarian split is growing, not narrowing, and since Iraqis who could have helped Iraq are--for good reason--fleeing every day.

Your move, Mr. Pollyanna.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Peace
Date: 28 Mar 06 - 11:29 PM

"Why no new Iraq thread?"

IMO, it's because there is no new Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Teribus
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 08:33 AM

So Ron,

You want me to tell you what exactly "victory" in Iraq would consist of this time.

OK, how long do you have?

Oh, and from whose perspective? The list is quite long:
- Iraqi Federalists;
- Iraqi Secularists;
- Iraqi Arab Shia followers of Sadr;
- Iraqi Arab Shia followers of Al Sistani;
- The Maadan;
- Iraqi Arab Sunni's;
- Iraqi Kurdish Shia;
- Former Ba'athist Party Members;
- Iraqi Christians;
- Expatriate Iraqi's;
- Jordanians;
- Syrians;
- Turkish Kurds;
- Iranian Kurds;
- Iranian Arab Shia;
- Iranian Government;
- Kuwaiti Government;
- Saudi Government;
- United Arab Emirates;
- Israel;
- EU;
- UN;
- USA;
- UK;
- France;
- China;
- Russia;
- Germany;
- Al Qaeda in Iraq;
- Sadr Brigade;
- Medhi Army;
- Answar al Islam;
- Al Qaeda;


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Alba
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 09:40 AM

Ron...how long do you have? Do any of us know the answer to that question. That is deep. Does a Soldier, Civilian, Insurgent know if they will get through this day in Iraq or Afghanistan or in all the other areas of Conflict around this sad Earth...now that is a serious question. (How long do we have mmm, ponder.)

This should be good Ron. So many choices. Like 'Pick and Mix at Woolworth', remember that anyone?

Pick a topic any topic, just look at that list!!!!! Impressive huh!
I am in awe, no wait, shock at the vastness of knowledge that must be lurking within the mind of the List creator.
I am bloody stunned. Damn he's good eh?
I am also sure that any answer you receive will contain no references to anyone else's thinking on the subject. The answers you receive will ALL be based on the Writer's totally non bias completely indepedent thought process.

Now as for me, I have already read, cover to cover, 'The Sun newspaper' (a favorite read of the prejudice bigot and bias plebians with no capacity for independent thought) this fine morning and now am armed with my daily update on the War, so I already know all the answers to the topics you are being offered Ron.

Go for it Ron....be prepared to be Awed and Shocked or is it Shocked and Awed?
I would need to go and look through my old copies of the Sun to check what term is correct. I may be gone sometime, 3 years of back issues to search through. In fact as I don't know how long I have got...I will just skip it I think and go and do my Garden instead. Silly Billy that I am (what is the female of the handle) oh yes Silly Alba that I am *giggle, giggle*
Whoooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooosh, (the sound of humor and cynical wit flying right over someone's head))
Good luck Ron, you are brave and courageous man if you bother to get into this one:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Arne
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 11:01 PM

I think that Teribus is finally starting to get a glimmer of understanding of what the problem is..... But don't count on it; I may be judging too quickly and/or misoverestimating him. ;-)

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 11:23 PM

I see little possibility of real victory in Iraq for anyone at all. Just a whole big heap of misery, all around, lasting for generations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 29 Mar 06 - 11:26 PM

Teribus--

You are a past master at answers which are not answers.

I suspect my question was actually quite clear to you: What will victory this time in Iraq consist of--from YOUR perspective?   What do YOU think it would look like? I'm sure it would be fascinating to see it from all the viewpoints you have cited--but I am only interested in YOUR view. I have the inexplicable nagging feeling that your list might just possibly be one of your standard red herrings--can't imagine why that suspicion should cross my mind.

Also waiting for you to tell us why the parallel with Yugoslavia does not hold. Perhaps you recall how Yugoslavia ended up. Or perhaps that's another of the distressingly many gaps in your education.

And what progress has been made toward addressing Sunni concerns?--which is, as I have said more than once, is the only way to defuse the insurgency.

Awaiting your next fact-filled, objective post.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Arne
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 02:22 AM

LH:

I see little possibility of real victory in Iraq for anyone at all. Just a whole big heap of misery, all around, lasting for generations.

See my new thread "BS: It's a new day dawning in Iraq". Teribus ought to take a gander over there too.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 07:46 AM

Yugoslavia fell apart when Tito died.
It now has an uneasy peace, and the tourists are returning.
Sadaam is not a young man.
How much of the current turmoil in Iraq would have happened anyway when he lost his grip?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 08:18 AM

QUOTE
You want me to tell you what exactly "victory" in Iraq would consist of this time.

OK, how long do you have?

Oh, and from whose perspective? The list is quite long:
UNQUOTE

Missed Australia...


but then there are several different opinions in Australia too...


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 01:06 PM

Is Teribus implying that "victory" will be achieved when all the folks on his list are satisfied?


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Peace
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 05:35 PM

Don't misunderestimate the depth of his thinking.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Teribus
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:08 PM

Ron Davies - 29 Mar 06 - 11:26 PM

and others, particularly Alba, Arne, Foolestroupe, Little Hawk and GUEST TIA - None of you are students of history, you are all slave to your own political leanings.

Ron what MY perspective on Iraq is, is completely irrelevant, I do not work there, I do not live there, I do not struggle to bring up a family there. If I did one thing would be obvious to me, one side offers me hope for a future, the other side offers nothing but death and destruction, after which there is what? A return to the days where a minority dictated what was right for them at the expense of all other fellow citizens. But here is one thing Ron, at least I do recognise that there are many different perspectives to be judged, while you merely hammer on about the rights, interests and financial future of the one sect that have been terrorising the country for the last forty years.

Tell us Foolestoupe, just exactly what is Australia's take on things in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:23 PM

Teribus--

It breaks my heart to have to tell you that realism is actually rather useful in foreign policy analysis--you may want to try it some day. It should be obvious even to you that winning Sunni approval of any Iraqi government is the only way that government can survive. Without Sunni support of the government, the supply of insurgents is bottomless.

And, as I said, unless Bush and the Bushites (including your good self) can tell us why the Coalition troops should stay in Iraq, we'll be forced to the conclusion that you have no idea--and therefore they should come home.

And I'm still waiting for your description of "victory" in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Ron Davies
Date: 30 Mar 06 - 11:27 PM

And as for being a student of history, without political leanings--anything you say, O Great Oracle of Objectivity.


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Arne
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:39 AM

Teribus:

None of you are students of history,...

Ummm, you misspelled "prevarications and hallucinations". HTH.

... you are all slave to your own political leanings.

It's so awesome to see projection so masterfully displayed in all its full splendour.

Say, speaking of history, have you ever read Stephen Kinzer's "All The Shah's Men"? From what I see of you, I doubt it.... Sad, really. Might have given you some insight into the topics under discussion here.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Why no new Iraq thread?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Mar 06 - 01:45 AM

I am a student of history, teribus, but that doesn't mean I know everything. ;-) Nor does it mean I have the time to exhaustively search out and document every last detail of everything there is to discuss. I wonder that you do (apparently).

We usually agree on most WWII stuff, I've noticed.


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