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Dave Bulmer-related enquiry

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sinpelo 19 Feb 06 - 02:57 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Feb 06 - 04:49 AM
John MacKenzie 19 Feb 06 - 04:56 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man 02 Sep 09 - 12:24 PM
John MacKenzie 02 Sep 09 - 12:50 PM
Folkiedave 03 Sep 09 - 06:06 AM
Bryn Pugh 03 Sep 09 - 06:16 AM
Folkiedave 03 Sep 09 - 07:16 AM
The Sandman 03 Sep 09 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man 03 Sep 09 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Max 29 Nov 09 - 01:41 PM
GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain 13 Jan 10 - 05:57 PM
GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain 13 Jan 10 - 06:01 PM
Tig 13 Jan 10 - 06:28 PM
Jim Carroll 13 Jan 10 - 07:43 PM
Richard Bridge 14 Jan 10 - 04:46 AM
The Sandman 14 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM
GUEST,Don Scott. 14 Jan 10 - 05:08 PM
Tig 14 Jan 10 - 08:26 PM
Jack Campin 15 Jan 10 - 08:26 AM
Richard Bridge 15 Jan 10 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Don Scott. 15 Jan 10 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain 15 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM
GUEST,Doc John 16 Jan 10 - 07:25 AM
GUEST 09 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM
GUEST,Steve 15 Oct 14 - 06:54 PM
The Sandman 16 Oct 14 - 03:18 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 16 Oct 14 - 03:25 PM
Jack Campin 16 Oct 14 - 03:48 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 16 Oct 14 - 03:57 PM
GUEST,Guest Betsy 16 Oct 14 - 07:22 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 17 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,SB 17 Oct 14 - 12:03 PM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 17 Oct 14 - 02:36 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 14 - 06:51 PM
Steve Shaw 17 Oct 14 - 06:53 PM
GUEST,Malcolm Storey 18 Oct 14 - 10:56 AM
GUEST 18 Oct 14 - 11:15 AM
DMcG 18 Oct 14 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,punkfolkrocker 18 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM
Raggytash 18 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 18 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM
GUEST,Malcolm Storey 18 Oct 14 - 09:13 PM
Richard Mellish 19 Oct 14 - 04:10 AM
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GUEST,Malcolm Storey 19 Oct 14 - 05:28 AM
Richard Mellish 19 Oct 14 - 06:45 AM
GUEST,Fred McCormick 19 Oct 14 - 07:08 AM
caitlin rua 19 Oct 14 - 07:09 AM
GUEST,Malcolm Storey 19 Oct 14 - 10:36 AM
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Subject: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: sinpelo
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 02:57 AM

Yeah yeah I know..... if one more person mentions Bulmer.....! Thank God people can't actually throw things at you on the Internet!

Can somebody point me to the original article on this hoo-hah? I've been trying to piece together bits of info by sorting through the threads but I'm getting on a bit and there are other things I want to do before I die!

I would be eternally grateful (well, perhaps not eternally but for several weeks at least).

Many thanks in anticipation.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 04:49 AM

Have a look at this , you will also find related threads listed at the top of the page that I have linked to.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 19 Feb 06 - 04:56 AM

Sorry, I suggest you start with this thread, and if you click Printer Friendly at the top of the page it will relist the posts in the correct order for you. There are many many posts on this, and the sequence is denoted by the number after the thread name in the related posts list at the top of the page.
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:24 PM

Tomorrow (September 3rd 2009) in the High Court in London, there appears to be an action that can only really be our much observed Mr Bulmer? Anyone know what it could be about??

COURT 78
Before MASTER PRICE
Thursday 3rd September 2009

At 11 o'clock
Compass Records Group Inc v Bulmer


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 02 Sep 09 - 12:50 PM

Compass Records.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:06 AM

Andy - I couldn't find this. Where is it and can you keep us posted?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Bryn Pugh
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 06:16 AM

Dave and Andy,

The Case will almost certainly be reported, being in the High Court.

I am not sure how long it will take, but you might think of contacting the Incorporated Society of Law Reporters (Google it)in about four weeks' time.

You will almost certainly have to pay for a transcript, and I should tell you that they don't come cheap.

Hope this helps. Regards, Bryn.

(PS it may well be in the Commercial Court).


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Folkiedave
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 07:16 AM

Thanks Bryn. I have one or two friends with an interest in Bulmer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 07:52 AM

Yes,I am interested in him too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Andy, Port Erin, Isle Of Man
Date: 03 Sep 09 - 09:33 AM

To Dave: Much of the case will be able to be traced through various sections of the RCJ web site. Judgments will ultimately appear on the site and can be accessed FOC! I got the info about todays hearing by checking out the links after clicking on the following:http://www.hmcourts-service.gov.uk/cms/courthearings.htm
Let's hope that the man with right, and the law on his side, wins.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Max
Date: 29 Nov 09 - 01:41 PM

Any more news Andy?   Whilst writing, anyone attending MIDEM 2010in Cannes during January, should be aware that Mr B will be attending and presumably representing his company LOYALWARE. Loyalware is listed in the Midem list of attendees as a "UK distribution company". Be careful, be very careful!!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 05:57 PM

I got a call this morning from a person called "Dave" who seemingly wanted to help about the scam detailed at the bottom of a rough little website I put up in a hurry;

http://seanonuallain.com/id2.html


It turned out to be Dave Bulmer - only when I was on the phone did he reveal his surname. While talking to him I found this thread


Thanks to all here who posted and revealed certain details that have motivated me to tell him NEVER to phone again

On request, I will post the "scam" details


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:01 PM

Scam details posted; they go way beyond Bulmer, and there are strong indications of criminal conspiracy between British and Irish miscreants. B's sudden interest in this before the Feb 4, 2010, federal hearing is piquant. Sorry for the bad formatting

Sequence: 1. Late 1980's/ early '90's.Shay Hennessy is fired as head of
K-Tel Ireland. His
company Crashed Music Ltd is struck off, despite his prominence as Fianna
Fail appointee to many
State boards over 30 years to date. The Taxing master later pronounces a
judgement of 100,000 pounds
against him after his unsuccessful appeal to the EAT.

2. Early 1990's : Oliver Sweeney sets up CBM Ltd. and later its publishing
arm
Dog Music Ltd. He signs
a multitude of artists to CBM Ltd., including Sean Keane, Cran,Barry Ronan,
Draoichtand
      Melanie O'Reilly. Melanie does not sign a publishing deal, and signs
only heads
of agreement for one
CD recording, as Sweeney himself admits in writing.

3. Mid-1990's : Hennessy claims copyright on Melanie's
compositions at MCPS London through the trader name Crashed Music.
The Gardai are later sent a file of some of these spurious claims,
anonymously, though MCPS is
itself a possible source.

4. Dec. 1996: CBM Ltd is struck off just as a High Court case taken
against it by Sean Keane is
about to proceed. CBM Ltd. trades openly after dissolution, until 1998 at
least. Files are sent
to Dept. of Ent. Trade & Employment proving this. Paul Vickers, Harney's
secretary writes to
Melanie stating the precise documentation required for a prosecution. When
this is supplied, Dete
phones to say that prosecution of CBM Ltd and record services can take
place. Other companies are
also implicated. No prosecutions have occurred 6 years later.
Other complaints were lodged at that time concerning Dog and Ecellent Ltd.

5. Record Services Ltd. , struck off in 2000, continues to trade openly,
even after losing
lawsuits and after complaints to DETE. Paul Mc Guinness is listed as one of
the Directors.


6. IMRO gets the unambiguous right to collect for broadcast music in bars
and arts centres in
1996.

7. Hennessey becomes Chair of IMRO in 1997.

8. Musicians transferring their works to IMRO from the British PRS in the
1990's find
miscellaneous
publishers like Dog Music Ltd , Crashed Music Ltd. and Gael Linn Teoranta
illegally associated
with them.

9. Melanie O'Reilly finding the same illegal transfer of her copyright,
goes through the MCPS/PRS
Alliance duplicate claims procedure, a procedure accepted by IMRO.

10. Dog Music publishing Ltd. who claim Melanie's/Nuala Ni Dhomhnaill/David
Milligan's
works on Melanie's
album "Tir Na Mara", are written to: -C/O Crashed Music -their common
address. Neither reply and
copyright is returned to Melanie, Nuala, and David in 2001.
Dog Music publishing Ltd. Have already been dissolved
Mysteriously, Hennessy's illegal claims are done t/a Crashed Music, versus
using his company Crashed Ltd. However, only Crashed Ltd, which was
reinstated under the auspices of then Minister Bertie Ahern in 1992 is
registered to trade as Crashed Music.

11. Matheson Ormbsby Prentice, acting on behalf of IMRO, vociferously
deny Hennessey has any
beneficial interest in Melanie's works other than the slight amount
associated with Dog Music Ltd.
This is untrue, as proven later in written correspondence from MCPS.
MCPS do not pay Melanie at any stage until threat of legal action in 2006.

12. 2003: MCPS in correspondence with Melanie, mediated by the British
Musicians Union,
categorically state that contrary to MOPS repeated objections, Hennessey's
Crashed Music had
actually claimed Melanie's works. The 250,000 euros, or so , due to
Melanie for the illegal
licensing of her works as well as the 60,000 euros of legal fees and
considerable damages, are
therefore due to Melanie.

13. 2000: Melanie, along with other musicians, Maurice Lennon, and Donal
Lunny make detailed
statements to the Gardai about copyright fraud involving Dog Music, Crashed
and Gael Linn. Melanie
finds her compositions and recordings on 8 compilations for which she has
not given permission.
Sales figures indicate total units of at least one million.

14. Garda Mulvey is taken off the case, but Dail questions ensure a smooth
handover to Garda
Mooney. Mooney and Mulvey see preliminary evidence of massive fraud at IMRO,
with bogus song
titles being created, and attributed to musicians without their knowledge,
as well as the theft
already outlined.

15. 2001-2002: Mulvey and Mooney interview all parties concerned in Ireland
and Britain, and find
that all Melanie's, Donal's and Maurice's stories ring true. Mulvey himself
buys one of the
bootleg Cds in Ireland.
16. 1998: Hennessey signs a deal with Labhras O Murchu agreeing that IMRO
can issue a license
for Irish music. As much Irish music is not registered with IMRO, and much
else is public
domain, this is illegal.
While signing, O Murchu denies doing so in the Seanad (see
beyondthecommons.org). Around the same
time Hennessey is made a Peace commissioner

17. The Gardai submit a detailed 120 page file to the DPP who sits on it
for almost 2 years. In
mid 2003,
an article appears in the Sunday Independent saying that the DPP declines to
prosecute according
to
"sources close to the investigation". The Sunday Independent admits IMRO is
the source.

18. The Gardai, whose first knowledge of the DPP's decision is the Sunday
Independent, are
informed
of it officially 2 weeks later. The DPP, acting outside his remit,
recommends civil action against
Hennessey and Sweeney.
However, more evidence has since arrived for the DPP's consideration.

19. 2004: Mistletoe Music LLC is reliably informed that Hennessey, back on
the board of IMRO
after a short absence, is working with Gael-Linn, a former employer of
Oliver Sweeney.

20. 2004-2005: The Arts Council of Ireland criticises the IMRO -Murchu
deal. Una Bhean Murchu
resigns from the traditional committee chaired by Philip King,issues a
minority report from that
committee, and a wholesale campaign contra the Arts Council begins. Una's
Cashel "Bru Boru" centre
has been the major beneficiary of the IMRO deal.

21.Summer 2006; Melanie O'Reilly and Sean O Nuallain meet with Paul Appleby
for two hours, handing him numerous documents that got mislaid on their
passage from dete to him. Appleby promises High court action within two
months.

22.November 2006; Mistletoe music llc receives documents showing that
Hennessy's claim on Melanie's material antedated her legal claim. This is
in contradiction to what both MCPS and IMRO are contending, and MCPS is
reminded of this.

23Dec 2006; following a prolonged silence from Appleby, he confirms that
there is unlikely to be any prosecution after all.

24. Accounts finally arrive from MCPS, showing that, nearly 7 years after
the original complaint against them, both Dog and Excellent are still
trading as limited companies. 11 years after being recorded, Melanie's
compositions are still making 100 sterling or so a week.

25. June 2007; Melanie meets Minister Eamon Ryan, who agrees that her constitutional rights have been violated, and undertakes to contact Appleby

26. August 2007; Appleby writes to rescind his undertaking to proceed with High court action.
        



Jan 2008

Sean meets Preston Dufauchard, Californian commissioner of corporations, who complains about difficulties he is having with Irish companies trading in California. In particular, many are in fact dissolved; moreover, the notion of company reinstatement does not exist in Ca.

The complaints are taken to John Bruton, Eu ambassador to the US, initially at a public meeting in Berkeley. No action is taken



Feb 27 2008

1. Initial contract whereby the work of up to 50 Irish musicians was pirated is obtained
2. Appleby et al continue to refuse to act

February 2009

There has still been no enforcement of any of the relevant legislation. In the meantime, for similar reasons as for the failure of the Irish music industry, the Irish banking sector collapses.

May 2009

Through his British solicitors, Clinton, Hennessey sues the owner this site in an attempt to get the content removed. After consulting with our New york lawyer dealing with the case, who points out that truth is the best defense against libel, the site is left as is with only the letter from MCPS acknowledging the defeat of Hennessey's copyright claims added. Clintons are referred to our lawyer in Britain.

August- 2009 – Jan 2010

The complaint against Valley and St Clair proceeds at federal court in the US and is sent for mediation.

In the mediation, valley files a motion to dismiss on the grounds that Non-US copyrights are not valid in the US


No, I'm not kidding


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Tig
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 06:28 PM

OK, financially he may be a rogue, vagabond and total jerk who has taken advantage of friends, musicians and is refusing to let old stuff loose.

Privately he's a damn good musician and a really nice guy who more of you have probably met at festivals than you would know.

I know both sides of him - so don't say I don't know what I'm talking about!

If you actually have business with him you no doubt now know where to find him - but must we keep on bringing up his misdeeds on here? Stop using Mudcat for mud slinging. It's getting boring!


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 13 Jan 10 - 07:43 PM

"OK, financially he may be a rogue, vagabond and total jerk.....Privately he's a damn good musician and a really nice guy"
Oh, that makes the way he has behaved ok then - does it?
Jim Carroll


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 04:46 AM

The long guest post above is rather confusing and in places clearly inspired by a failure to understand relevant legal concepts.

Some of the lawyers mentioned are fairly serious players and have a good idea of what they are doing. Anyone in Ireland wanting some legal muscle that could understand what is going on might want to check out a certain James Wolsey although he might be conflicted as he has previously acted for some Irish collecting societies and others highly placed in the Irish musical world. I doubt whether James comes cheap these days though.

It would be interesting to know who the English lawyers and New York lawyers referred to in the sentences "After consulting with our New York lawyer dealing with the case, who points out that truth is the best defense against libel, the site is left as is with only the letter from MCPS acknowledging the defeat of Hennessey's copyright claims added. Clintons are referred to our lawyer in Britain" are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 12:41 PM

as far as I am concerned his behaviour is unacceptable, and yes I have ben affected by him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Don Scott.
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 05:08 PM

A bit confusing, which of these companies is Dave Bulmer involved with?.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Tig
Date: 14 Jan 10 - 08:26 PM

Don't know what happened there - repeat posting not as Guest.

I never said I agreed with Bulmer's behaviour - in fact I strongly disapprove of his business handling etc. However I do stand by the fact he's a great musician.

I was always lead to believe that there were far more Mudcat's in the world than were interested in him, or ever would be. To keep up bringing stuff like this isn't on. A quick flick through the relevant threads would soon provide the names of Catters who WERE interested/involved. Then you could pm each other and stop blackening him throughout the world. Some of his 'acts' were advised by his then legal eagles and were not of his starting.

I have been a Catter for a long time (10 years) but if it's sinking to this I may well be joining the increasing number of 'ex-cats'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Jack Campin
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 08:26 AM

Most Mudcatters aren't interested in folk clubs in South Derbyshire either. Are you suggesting we ban them too?

If you're not interested don't read the thread.

It would have been nice if the Irish scenario had been presented in a more comprehensible way. Richard Bridge could probably make sense of it all but most of it was lost on me (except to convey that some of Bulmer's confederates in Ireland are people with an even worse reputation than him).


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 10:59 AM

No it lost me in places too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Don Scott.
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 05:26 PM

Perhaps Guest Sean could enlighten us as to how Mr Bulmer is involved here, I know that several Irish artists have had very unpleasant dealings with his companies in the past.


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Sean O'Nuallain
Date: 15 Jan 10 - 06:12 PM

A chairde

First of all, the story is indeed VERY confusing, and I apologise again for the bad formatting which did not help

Clearing up a few matters; it relates to bulmer insofar as he contacted us, out of the blue, on Tuesday; 3 weeks before the first hearing in federal court in the USA, over 15 years after the saga began. I did not know who he was until I checked this site - luckily - while on the phone with him. He asked us for our friend Donal Lunny's address, and Donal is rater grateful that we did not oblige.

Secondly, I have indeed consulted with James Wolsey, but he cannot take action in the US, where most of the illegal sales occur.

Having apologised for the story's bad formatting, I should probably reassert the truth of every detail, and do so. As to its relevance, it will probably shock many to find that a blanket licence for the performance of "Irish" music (much of which is Scottish) was issued and accepted in Ireland (by a senator on the one side, and peace commissioner on the other); that it seems to be the case that MCPS in Streatham accepts utterly bogus composer "claims"; that IMRO was initially set up partly to protect these fake claims, and only the effective sacrifice of a whole generation of Irish musicians has prevented matters getting much worse

Best wishes

Sean


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Doc John
Date: 16 Jan 10 - 07:25 AM

Dave Bulmer threads are becoming boring. Can we have something about Ewan MacColl's war record please?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Feb 10 - 02:40 PM

which dave bulmer are we talking about, the one in harrogate or the one in london?


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Subject: RE: BS: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 15 Oct 14 - 06:54 PM

Is there any news about the Dave Bulmer albums situation since his death which was a while ago now?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:18 PM

no


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:25 PM

Musical Traditions has reissued an augmented version of the Cecilia Costello LP on double CD, as Old Fashioned Songs. Musical Traditions MTCD 363-4.

I was hoping that would signal the the reissue of the entire Leader catalogue. That it hasn't happened is due to the fact that nearly everything else in that catalogue is still in copyright.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Jack Campin
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:48 PM

It's not very difficult or expensive to challenge a will in English law, is it?

Did some interested party try?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 03:57 PM

I'm not going to go into it, but it's a lot more complicated than challenging Dave Bulmer's will. In fact it would take an army of lawyers to sort out the copyright mess that surrounds the LPs of say, Charlie Wills, John Maguire, Billy Pigg, etc.

It's a crying shame, but at least I can take solace in the fact that I bought copies of practically all the Leader LPs when they were first issued, and before D..e B....r got his greasy little mitts on them.

Thank God he never had the chance to privatise the NHS.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Guest Betsy
Date: 16 Oct 14 - 07:22 PM

I understand that his wife is a very decent person - so let's hope that there may be an agreeable outcome for all those performers who have been severely affected by Dave's actions / business adventures. I knew Dave , busked with him in Amsterdam in the 70's along with another fine musician/singer who may not wish to be mentioned.
Naturally, at that time there was no inkling of the devastation that his that the heart break which his commercial actions & aspirations would eventually bring.
As many of us are fond of quoting "it will all turn out alright in the end" - lets hope it does !!
As for Fred (Previous Post), Dave couldn't match the nastiness, dirty , underhandedness , perverse behaviour and disregard for the working class of this British Nation of Jeremy Hunt with regard to the NHS.
Warwick Hunt - not Jeremy thinks me !!!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM

Betsy. I only met DB once, so I can't comment on whether he had his good points or not. In any event, that is irrelevant to the present discussion.

The accusation is that he bought an admittedly small, but nonetheless vitally important catalogue of traditional music and song from Britain, Ireland and the USA and sat on it for the rest of his life. As a result the vast majority has never been reissued.

Here's an incomplete listing of what we wuz robbed of.

England. Copper family, The. Leader LEAB 404
England. George Dunn. Leader. LEE 4042
USA. New North Carolina Ramblers. North Carolina Boys. Leader LEA 4040
USA. Virginia Reel. Leader LED 2053
England. Unto Brigg Fair: Joseph Taylor and other Lincolnshire Singers recorded in 1908 by Percy Grainger. Leader LEA 4050
England. Billy Pigg. Border Minstrel, The. Leader LEA 4006
England. Fine Hunting Day, A. Leader LEE 4056
England. Cecilia Costello. Recordings From the Sound Archives of the BBC Leader LEE 4054
England. Charlie Wills. Leader LEA 4041
Ireland. Coleman Country Traditional Society, The. Music from the Coleman Country. Leader LEA 2044
Ireland. Folk Ballads From Donegal and Derry. Leader LEA 4055
Ireland. John J Kimmel. Early Recordings of Irish Traditional Dance Music. Leader LED 2060
Ireland. Seamus Tansey with Eddie Corcoran. Leader LEA 2005
Scotland. Shetland Fiddlers. Leader LED 2052
England. Stephen Baldwin. English Village Fiddler. Leader LED 2068
Ireland. Eddie Butcher. Shamrock Rose and Thistle. Leader LED 2070
England. Walter Pardon. A Proper sort. Leader LED 2063
USA. Lonnie Austin-Norman Woodlief        Lonnie Austin & Norman Woodlief. Leader LEE 4045
USA        Various        Blue Ridge Mountain Field Trip. Leader LEA 4012
Canada        Various        Far Canadian Fields. Leader. LEE 4057
England. Jack Elliott of Birtley; The Songs and Stories of a Durham Miner. Leader LEA 4001
England. Walter Pardon. Our Side of the Baulk. Leader LED 2111
Ireland. Martin Byrnes. Leader LEA 2004
Ireland. Séamus Ennis. Leader LEA 2003
Ireland. John Maguire. Come Day, Go Day, God Send Sunday. Leader LEE 4062
England. People's Carol, A. Leader LEE 4065

For anyone who doesn't know the story, Leader Sound was forced out of business by the oil (and therefore vinyl) shortage of 1973, which means he achieved that astonishing list in just four years. I don't know of any other record company, including Folkways and Topic, who showed such splendid initiative as Leader Sound did.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,SB
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 12:03 PM

So obtain the best vinyl and make CDs? Publish and be damned - this stuff needs to get back into the public domain.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 02:36 PM

SB. I've no idea who you are, or how much experience you have in these matters. However, there is a small problem of copyright law. Doing what you propose could land you in court, with a lot of copyright fees to pay, plus a lot of legal expenses.

Also, there is the question of protocol to be considered. I know that Bulmer's reputation isn't too good in most quarters. Even so, if you're seen to be issuing non PD recordings, without so much as a by your leave from his estate, you might find that no-one else in the folk record industry is willing to work with you.

Having said that, if there's anyone out there who can re-issue the stuff legally and legitimately, I'll be only too glad to give them all the help I can - as I did with Rod Stradling when he reissued the Cecilia Costello disc.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 06:51 PM

If anyone has pristine vinyl copies of the lost albums, keep them pristine. The original tapes may well have deteriorated beyond recall. Pristine vinyl owners may well be sitting on our heritage. Keep sitting for now!


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 17 Oct 14 - 06:53 PM

Owners of pristine vinyl, I should say. The owners may be less than pristine...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 10:56 AM

Dave Bulmer was an awkward cuss at times but he was also a very fine musician and great supporter of traditional music.

He was also in the business of making a living which he did quite successfully without recourse to any of the more unethical tricks undertaken by others.

He also recognised the artistic value of the various businesses (all failing before he got involved) he bought out.

He once admitted to me that he never thought he would ever recoup his outlay and that he had, if the family wanted to eat, to make other strands of his business be the breadwinners so to speak.

He has had very little praise for the good things he did such as the various tune collections and his staunch support of traditional musicians.

He has now been dead for some time and I feel he should be left to rest in peace without all this constant tittle tattle which I am sure would upset Ruth if she bothered to read it.

There is no real financial value in the vast majority of stuff that Dave saved from the landfill despite what so called experts might think.

Let it be.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:15 AM

there's no real financial value

Maybe some people think it is valuable on another basis


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: DMcG
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:18 AM

That's me just above.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,punkfolkrocker
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM

I've no need or right to stir things up.
But if there is no real financial value, why not make the positive gesture of goodwill
and legally return the rights [and any viable surviving tapes] back to the artists or their families,
or even some kind of neutral folk archive or promoting body...


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Raggytash
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:28 AM

Malcolm, I do not think I ever met Dave Bulmer and therefore cannot argue with anything you say. However I do know several artists who do cannot get access to work they recorded back in the 70's early 80's and who would love to do so. (I don't wish to mention any names for fear of creating any backlash for them)

From a personal point of view many of my vinyl albums are, not to put too fine a point of it, knackered and if CD's were available I would happily buy them again.

If as you state there is little or no financial gain to be made from the material it would seem logical to release it back to the artists who are recorded.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 11:32 AM

Malcolm. There may be no financial value in the Leader catalogue worth speaking of. But there is a hell of a lot of artistic value.

For the rest of the 'tittle tattle' I can only repeat what I said above. IE., that I never knew the man and have no idea what he was like in other spheres. Therefore I have no desire to engage in a DB character assassination. But I do believe that the Leader catalogue should be made available once more to those people who recognise said artisitic value.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 18 Oct 14 - 09:13 PM

DMcG - I think I acknowledged the artistic value, as Dave did by putting his money etc.

Punkfolkrocker - the second part of your argument would only work if such a body or body of persons existed.
For the first part what obligation is there to buy something and then give it to a third party? I think people are picking on the wrong devil here.

Fred and Raggytash - you both know me personally and I am quite prepared to debate this with in private, with, perhaps a means to lay it to rest.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 04:10 AM

GUEST,Malcolm Storey said
> Punkfolkrocker - the second part of your argument would only work if such a body or body of persons existed.
For the first part what obligation is there to buy something and then give it to a third party? I think people are picking on the wrong devil here. <

DB bought the Leader tapes and their copyright for whatever seemed to him a good reason at the time. Whether that was wise or foolish, virtuous or wicked, an obligation or not, it is fait accompli. But there is now, in the opinion of many people, an ethical obligation on his heirs to do something positive with that material.

There are various organisations and individuals unconnected to the original performers that might be willing to take some or all of it, but that should only be as second choice to the performers or their heirs.

If DB's heirs consider it not worthwhile to publish it themselves, they should give it not to "a third party" but to the original first parties, the artists, or their heirs. Or they could even sell it back for a reasonable price. Sitting on the copyright and leaving the tapes to deteriorate does no-one any good, and is unethical because it does actual harm to those who are prevented from raising some cash from re-issued recordings.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: DMcG
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 04:25 AM

DMcG - I think I acknowledged the artistic value, as Dave did by putting his money etc

Sort of. But you also said 'Let it be' because you believe it to have no financial value. But many here see the artistic value as sufficient grounds to oppose letting things go, whereas you appear to regard the financial aspect as the deciding factor.

We differ, that's all there is to say, really, so I don't expect to post further on this aspect, especially as people like Richard just above are making essentially the same point I was but rather better.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 05:28 AM

DMcG

It is the business man in me that sees the financial part as a deciding factor.

Throwing good money after bad was never a wise philosophy.

Richard

I would be intrigued to know who these organistations and individuals are that would be interested in the material. To do what?

I see no one out there waving a cheque book or even a debit card.

Dave bought the material because nobody else wanted it.

He also bought a set of urinals once - any offers for those?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 06:45 AM

> I would be intrigued to know who these organistations and individuals are that would be interested in the material.

Maybe Musical Traditions. Maybe the British Library Sound Archive. Maybe EFDSS. Maybe ITMA for the Irish recordings. Maybe someone in the USA.

> To do what?

To make some or all of these recordings generally available to whoever wants to listen to them, on CD or as digital downloads, possibly free, possibly at a reasonable price.

> I see no one out there waving a cheque book or even a debit card.

Not a lot of point when there appears to be nothing for sale.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Fred McCormick
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 07:08 AM

Richard. Rod Stradling (Musical Traditions)looked into the question of copyright when he reissued the Cecilia Costello LP. At the time he seemed to feel that the ice was a bit too thin to take a chance on with the rest of the catalogue.

I haven't spoken to him on this topic for quite a while, so I've no idea whether there might have been further developments. Even so, I think that a project such as this would be too fraught with loopholes for one person to tackle.

Of the other names you mention, I can't see the NSA wanting to get involved. EFDSS might be a possibility, but I'd have thought an unlikely one unless and until the question of copyright ownership is entirely resolved. Ditto for ITMA. Plus there is an added problem if the latter were to issue only the Irish stuff, in that it would effectively break the collection up.

My feeling is that it's going to take a consortium of committed people to thoroughly investigate the copyright problem and to persuade the copyright holders to waive their rights in the name of artistic heritage (or whatever).

Sounds to me like this would make a useful topic for discussion at a future Tradsong Forum meeting.


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: caitlin rua
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 07:09 AM

> There is no real financial value in the vast majority of stuff that Dave saved from the landfill

That's one person's opinion, not fact. So why not subject it to a reality test: Put it up for sale, publicly and widely-announced, and see what happens. If it makes any money at all, that indicates at least some financial value.

The other choice would be to release these artistic works in the marketplace; but if this couldn't recoup sufficient profit for the costs/work involved (a debatable topic: other outfits manage), then selling everything outright would at least earn back something.

Or are the royalty payments better than is generally being let on, worth just enough to keep the catalogue?

> It is the business man in me that sees the financial part as a deciding factor. Throwing good money after bad was never a wise philosophy.

How is selling the material throwing good money after bad?


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Subject: RE: Dave Bulmer-related enquiry
From: GUEST,Malcolm Storey
Date: 19 Oct 14 - 10:36 AM

Caitlin

That was Dave's opinion as well as mine and I felt he was trying to be altruistic but all the crap got on top of him and he was never one for suffering fools gladly.

The vinyl is and always was available via the catalogue as far as I am aware.

The reissueing of the material on CD would cost money and considering that the stuff never sold in the first place what makes people think things have changed?

So it might be possible to reissue one or two items a year and recoup the cost and so on ad infinitum.

Of course if there are pristine vinyl copies out there then that speaks volumes (no pun intended) in itself.

Richard

The chequebook comment related to interested parties willing to rescue the collection - if it needs resueing.

Fred, as usual, talks a fair bit of sense and his last two comments might point a way forward.

There are a lot of mights and maybes in there and not a business plan in sight.


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