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BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism

CarolC 02 Feb 06 - 12:06 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 06 - 12:07 AM
number 6 02 Feb 06 - 12:12 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM
number 6 02 Feb 06 - 12:20 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 06 - 12:24 AM
Don Firth 02 Feb 06 - 12:26 AM
number 6 02 Feb 06 - 12:30 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 06 - 12:33 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 06 - 12:37 AM
number 6 02 Feb 06 - 12:40 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 06 - 12:50 AM
GUEST,Boab 02 Feb 06 - 01:03 AM
Joe Offer 02 Feb 06 - 01:44 AM
CarolC 02 Feb 06 - 01:48 AM
Joe Offer 02 Feb 06 - 02:03 AM
Paul Burke 02 Feb 06 - 03:35 AM
Once Famous 02 Feb 06 - 08:02 AM
artbrooks 02 Feb 06 - 08:31 AM
kendall 02 Feb 06 - 09:10 AM
Greg F. 02 Feb 06 - 10:42 AM
Wesley S 02 Feb 06 - 11:15 AM
GUEST,NEW GUEST 02 Feb 06 - 11:42 AM
number 6 02 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM
Arne 02 Feb 06 - 01:52 PM
Once Famous 02 Feb 06 - 09:51 PM
M.Ted 02 Feb 06 - 10:21 PM
GUEST,dianavan 02 Feb 06 - 11:38 PM
Arne 03 Feb 06 - 01:14 PM
GUEST,Begin the Beguine 03 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM
M.Ted 03 Feb 06 - 04:20 PM
GUEST 03 Feb 06 - 04:43 PM
Peace 03 Feb 06 - 06:46 PM
number 6 03 Feb 06 - 06:58 PM
Troll 03 Feb 06 - 08:45 PM
number 6 03 Feb 06 - 10:57 PM
Once Famous 04 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM
Peace 04 Feb 06 - 02:22 PM
Teribus 04 Feb 06 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,dianavan 04 Feb 06 - 03:12 PM
Arne 04 Feb 06 - 03:44 PM
Little Hawk 04 Feb 06 - 03:47 PM
Ebbie 04 Feb 06 - 09:01 PM
Once Famous 05 Feb 06 - 01:09 PM
GUEST 05 Feb 06 - 01:15 PM
Once Famous 05 Feb 06 - 01:43 PM
GUEST 05 Feb 06 - 01:54 PM
Once Famous 05 Feb 06 - 02:07 PM
GUEST 05 Feb 06 - 02:09 PM
Once Famous 05 Feb 06 - 02:15 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:06 AM

All of the people who represent me in my government have been bought and paid for by the "Israel first" lobby. If any member of my government even so much as makes a peep about how maybe the way my tax dollars are being spent in Israel isn't such a good thing, the "Israel first" lobby will get that person unelected so fast it would make your head spin.

So no, there is no representation for me in my government. Only Israel gets representation in my government.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:07 AM

And yes, I do complain.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:12 AM

Jeeezuz .... I'd be more pissed off on how your tax dollars are going into the mess over in Iraq ... even more pissed off on how the youth of your country are getting killed and maimed over there ... That would be my first priority in the "pissed off" department.

Man ... am I glad I'm Canadian and live in Canada .. but down somewhere in me I do have an affinity with Israel, and humanity to all ... sorry, buts thats the way I am.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:17 AM

Jeeezuz .... I'd be more pissed off on how your tax dollars are going into the mess over in Iraq ... even more pissed off on how the youth of your country are getting killed and maimed over there ... That would be my first priority in the "pissed off" department.

I am pretty pissed off about that. But I don't see why I should be more pissed off about Iraq than I am about Israel. I consider all crimes against humanity to be equally abhorant.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:20 AM

I do to.

But ... when kids in your own commuity are being sent off to a useless war ... a war that will drain your economy away, which is your livilihood and the right to a secure decent life ... I think that would be my first priority.

Then, after that has been dealt with I'd go the the next item in my "pissed off" department.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:24 AM

And I am working on trying to change, within my own country, the attitudes that prompt us to wage war for oil. And I do protest my government's war for oil agendas. I protest all of the things done by my government that I consider to be reprehensible. One of these things is sending my tax dollars to Israel for the purpose of killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Don Firth
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:26 AM

Plenty to be pissed off about these days.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:30 AM

Oh Carol, oh Carol ... I give up for now. Will continue this debate (more than likely) at another time ... but I suggest concentrating on your own community and country first ... it certainly needs all the help it can get.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:33 AM

Nope. Not the first priority. It's all a part of the same problem. Israel wanted us to invade Iraq, too. I heard Benjamin Netanyahu telling us to invade Iraq on television with my own ears. He said, "Just do it. You don't need anyone's permission". Israel wanted the US to invade Iraq as a part of its goal of becoming the hegemonic power in the Middle east.

And now the president of my country has said (today), that the United States would wage war on Iran in order to protect Israel (which already has one of the best, most powerful, and most advanced militaries in the world). So not only are the young men and women of my country getting killed in Iraq, they may soon be getting killed in Iran, too, because Israel is unwilling to live in peace with its neighbors. What Israel does effects us all, whether we like it or not.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:37 AM

(which already has one of the best, most powerful, and most advanced militaries in the world)

A military which the taxpayers of the United States paid for, by the way.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:40 AM

AAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHaaaaaHHHHHH .... I giveup ok, ok!!!!

You can drive anyone absolutely NUTS!!


sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 12:50 AM

You can drive anyone absolutely NUTS!!

Thank you.

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:03 AM

I vote with Sorcha! -----Joe?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:44 AM

I've deleted a few personal attack and name-calling messages, but I don't see reason to close the whole discussion. There are still a number of messages that shouldn't be here, but deleting them would ruin the discussion. Please remember, though, that personal attacks like name calling and ad hominem attacks are not allowed.

I guess I have to say that I am disappointed that it appears that the liberals have deserted Israel. Somebody needs to stand up for peace in the Middle East, and for the right of Israelis to keep the home they've had for fifty years or more AND the right of Palestinians to a homeland. There has to be a peaceful compromise that will serve the needs of everyone (if not their desires) - somebody needs to stand up and support compromise, instead of all this polarization.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:48 AM

Here's compromise for you, Joe...


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Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: Wolfgang - PM
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:42 AM

I'm curious, Carol. Why the before 1967 borders and not for instance the 1948 borders or the pre-1948 borders? What makes a border originating from a war acceptable to you?

Wolfgang




Subject: RE: BS: Zionist Negotiation ?
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:20 PM

It's a compromise, Wolfgang. The most just and fair arrangement from the Palestinian perspective would be to have the land Israel took from them that was outside the area that was given to Israel by the UN, given back to them. However, that would cause quite a lot of problems for the Israelis who live in those areas. So the 1967 borders are a difficult, but just barely (for the Palestinians) workable compromise.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Joe Offer
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 02:03 AM

Right, Carol. In general, the 1967 borders seem to be a reasonable compromise, as long as Israelis can have access to Jerusalem. It's my understanding that there is a growing moderate movement among Israelis that wants peace, and wants all sides to get a fair shake. There are Palestinians who want the same - I met some myself when I was in Jerusalem. We need to support these people people who are willing to find middle ground and peace. As long as we support one side against another all we'll have is conflict.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 03:35 AM

The obvious answer (which neither side will accept initially) is to make the whole of historic Jerusalem an international city, administered by a neutral power. Have two secular states, with different flavours, but with agreements concerning the rights of Palestinians in Israel and Jews in Palestine.

A truth-and-reconciliation process on the South African model. Then a huge development plan to repair the damage done to the respective economies.

This involves huge write offs for each side: the loss of property by the families of Palestinians who were forced out of Israel in 1947, the amnesty of the carnage in the whole area since, the nuclear disarmament of the whole area, and the enforcement of that by a neutral power, the abolition of militias....

But short of that, the next thing after putting a wall around Israel, would be to put a lid on it too, because they will have to keep the enemy out for not just a few, but hundreds of years.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:02 AM

"I guess I have to say that I am disappointed that it appears that the liberals have deserted Israel."

Joe, thanks for summarizing the feeling of many.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: artbrooks
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 08:31 AM

The two primary problems with the pre-1967 borders were the Golan Heights (part of Syria) and the narrow corridor through Jordan that contained the road between the coast and Jerusalem. Both of these were used as bases for attacks on Israel proper. As a former artilleryman, I can tell you with some certainty that firing from the Heights (and I've been there) would add at least five miles to the range of any artillery or rocket being fired south or west. Another issue was the denial, by the Jordanians, of Jewish access to the Temple Wall (Wailing Wall) in the Old City. It is easy to say that good will can correct these problems, but, IMHO, the Israelis would like some guarantees.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: kendall
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:10 AM

Right on, Joe.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Greg F.
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:42 AM

it appears that the liberals have deserted Israel

Actually, Joe, its more accurate to say that the increasingly irrational, violent, and pig-headed behavior of Israel has made it impossible for many folks with a conscience and a sense of fair play to support Israel unconditionally.

Israel has deserted the "liberals".


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Wesley S
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:15 AM

I'm a liberal and I havn't abandoned Israel OR the United States. I don't agree with some of the things the United States GOVERNMENT has done - but that's a long way from abandoning the country.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,NEW GUEST
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:42 AM

Carole writes "One of these things is sending my tax dollars to Israel for the purpose of killing and ethnically cleansing Palestinians."
Please Carole - what a crock- why waste your time spouting off obvious propaganda nonesense.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:49 AM

Well said Joe Offer, my sentiments exactly.

I disagree with Sorcha ... this is a good thread.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 01:52 PM

Joe:

I guess I have to say that I am disappointed that it appears that the liberals have deserted Israel. Somebody needs to stand up for peace in the Middle East, and for the right of Israelis to keep the home they've had for fifty years or more AND the right of Palestinians to a homeland. There has to be a peaceful compromise that will serve the needs of everyone (if not their desires) - somebody needs to stand up and support compromise, instead of all this polarization.

Hear, hear. My suggestion of a slice of New Mexico, practical as it may have been, is water over the dam, and doesn't address the other reason(s) for fighting over a rather miserable pice of real estate (FWIW, while I wasn't in Isreal, I was over in the Sinai last month, and I can tell you that for all its beauty, it's a big freakin' desert...). "Next year in Jerusalem" is a part of the culture and history FWIW, and the Christians and Muslims have a fair stake in the area as well. But, to my mind, that would argue for some kind of international, non-sectarian administration of the antiquities and holy sites there. The world has seen in Afghanistan the destruction of the Bamiyan buddhas, and we (my partner and I) were appalled on visiting the Nile valley antiquities the purpusful effacing of all the human faces on the pharoic era friezes by the subsequent occupiers. People that care more about religions than they care about preserving our common human heritage do some pretty nasty things.

Preserving (or creating) a "safe" haven for the Jews is certainly a worthy enterpise taken in isolation, given history. But that's hardly an excuse for "open under new management" type solutions that present their own difficulties (sometimes even the same ones, with just the names changed) as the original problem.

Only a true peace and tolerance will ever provide safety ... and this goes for U.S. efforts in other areas as well. Hey, we still have our own lingering problems with co-existence here.

I can't believe that a wall solves anything in the long run. I can't believe that dividing people fosters the bridges that will hopefully eventually ties us all together.

My Turkish co-workers once saw holiday pictures of my family, and commented "are you trying to integrate the whole world all by yourself?" Yes, I think if we could do it, we would, but we're just one family (and there aren't enough Langsetmos the world around). But perhaps over time, it will be harder and harder to find ways to divide us or put labels on us. I just know that walls ... and immigration laws ... and borders ... and religious fundamentalism and conservatism .. and laws that say you can come but you can't stay or you can't marry or have your kids accpted in the country in which they were born ... are the wrong way to achieve that. So there's plenty out there that still needs fixing, the way I reckon.....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 09:51 PM

Arne, you are not supposed to drink your acne medication.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 10:21 PM

And I take it that CarolC has discussed this 1967 borders business with the Palestinians, and can give her personal guarantee that everything will be skittles and beer if Israel does what she asks.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 02 Feb 06 - 11:38 PM

Good grief, M. Ted - At least it would be a start. Its not a bad idea. Why put if down? Other than starting a nuclear war, do you have any better ideas?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 01:14 PM

'Martin Gibson':

Let me descend for a moment to your level, and seee if it furthers the conversation:

Arne, you are not supposed to drink your acne medication.

Dunno about that, Martin. My acne medication consists of a fine Cognac, and it certainly makes your visage more tolerable, if not appealing.

Now, back to the subject at hand, if you can manage it, 'Martin'.....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Begin the Beguine
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM

Israel wanted us to invade Iraq, too. I heard Benjamin Netanyahu telling us to invade Iraq on television with my own ears.

Right, Israel controls the United States. President Bush takes his marching orders from the Jews.

What CarolC does not tell you is that Benjamin Netanyahu is now an opposition politician in Israel. According to the polls, he his party will probably come in third, behind Labor, and way behind Kadima, in the upcoming Israeli election.

CarolC's false claim that Netanyahu speaks for Israel is as spurious as saying that Senator Clinton speaks for George W. Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: M.Ted
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 04:20 PM

Dianavan,

If you could promise me that all Palestinians would agree to live in peace if the 1967 borders were restored, I would shed many, many happy tears--but you can't--There are many out there who will not accept that-- there are many who demand that things be restored to the way the were before 1948--


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 04:43 PM

Yeah, let's bring back 1948 when the British colonial masters were in charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:46 PM

"spurious as saying that Senator Clinton speaks for George W. Bush."

I wish that someone would speak for Bush; he certainly has trouble speaking for himself.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 06:58 PM

Don't worry Peace ... he has Karl Rove standing right there behind him at all times, telling him what to say.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Troll
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 08:45 PM

Make Jerusalem an international city and move the UN there to administer it. That way neither Christian, Muslim, or Jew will have control but all will have access.

That should remove one major bone of contention.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 03 Feb 06 - 10:57 PM

As if both sides would agree to that !!

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 01:24 PM

Arne, you are not supposed to use your fine cognac as an enema.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:22 PM

"Make Jerusalem an international city and move the UN there to administer it."

I think that was central to a Tom Clancy novel.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 02:30 PM

CarolC - 02 Feb 06 - 12:33 AM

"the president of my country has said (today), that the United States would wage war......in order to protect Israel"

Are you living in a time warp darlin' A US President gave that binding and solemn commitment in 1948 - What's new???


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,dianavan
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:12 PM

I like the idea of an international city of Jews, Christians and Muslims. It certainly would mean that the U.N. would need to be there as peace keepers for, at least, awhile.

For the sake of peace, do you think anyone would ever agree to that?

Very doubtful. War is much more profitable for the handful of politicians that continue to sew discord.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:44 PM

'Martin Gibson':

You'd do best to try and leave the put-downs to the professionals. You just ain't any good at it. Your latest attempt didn't even make any sense.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 03:47 PM

He's onto something, Arne. Don't ever use fine cognac as an enema! It burns like hell.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Feb 06 - 09:01 PM

I'm not even going to ask how it is that Marvin and Little Hawk share that knowledge.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:09 PM

Arne, you are truly a moron. You were the one ranting about fine cognac. I am merely suggesting what you can do with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:15 PM

Martin Gibson thinks he's funny.

Now, THAT'S funny!!


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:43 PM

Guest, I wasn't trying to be funny. Being funny has nothing to do with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 01:54 PM

I think that's what I just said. You have far too much time on your hands, Martin.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:07 PM

Actually, you do, pal. The cause for starting this thread was time well spent on my part.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:09 PM

Depends on how screwed up your values are.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 05 Feb 06 - 02:15 PM

Anyone with any common sense, and based on the enormous amout of supportive PMs I get, realize how screwed up the ultra-liberal values are here.

In other words, it is your values that keep you as an outsider looking in.


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