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BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism

Once Famous 31 Jan 06 - 10:12 PM
GUEST 31 Jan 06 - 10:18 PM
Once Famous 31 Jan 06 - 10:20 PM
GUEST 31 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM
Once Famous 31 Jan 06 - 10:28 PM
Little Hawk 31 Jan 06 - 10:43 PM
Ebbie 31 Jan 06 - 11:18 PM
Amos 31 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM
Peace 31 Jan 06 - 11:50 PM
Little Hawk 31 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 06 - 01:14 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 06 - 02:04 AM
CarolC 01 Feb 06 - 02:17 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 06 - 02:34 AM
Paul Burke 01 Feb 06 - 04:00 AM
Pied Piper 01 Feb 06 - 05:15 AM
GUEST 01 Feb 06 - 06:46 AM
Wolfgang 01 Feb 06 - 07:53 AM
Paul Burke 01 Feb 06 - 08:07 AM
number 6 01 Feb 06 - 11:46 AM
Arne 01 Feb 06 - 12:08 PM
Paul Burke 01 Feb 06 - 12:36 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 06 - 12:52 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 06 - 01:53 PM
CarolC 01 Feb 06 - 02:13 PM
Once Famous 01 Feb 06 - 05:01 PM
Don Firth 01 Feb 06 - 05:16 PM
GUEST,AR282 01 Feb 06 - 05:44 PM
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CarolC 01 Feb 06 - 05:51 PM
Peace 01 Feb 06 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,Martin gibson 01 Feb 06 - 05:57 PM
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Subject: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:12 PM

An important group and voice for Jews is The Organization known as FLAME, which is Facts and Logic About the Middle East. This organization runs articles in virtually all of the Jewish press. As some of clueless have mentioned on this forum, the ones who say they know Jews who do not support Israel, there is always going to be Jews who are loathsome of themselves and Israel just as there is a faction of them against American policies, also. To them, I just consider the source, for they are truly on the outside looking in at most of what they do in life and what they know of a given situation. The fact is, the number of Jews and Jewish organizations who support Israel against the ones who don't, is overwhelming.

FLAME's web site is: http://www.factsandlogic.org/

Here is a cut and paste article you can start with:


Who are the new anti-Semites?

The new anti-Semites do not publicly proclaim their desire to bring about a second Holocaust or to subject the Jews to mass murder or annihilation. The hatred is aimed against the state of Israel, which, according to the new anti-Semites, represents all that is evil in the world and which is the main violator of human rights and guilty of virtually every other abuse that can be conceived. This poison is now so widespread that a poll taken in Europe not too long ago found Israel to be the greatest menace to the peace of the world — far ahead of such murderous regimes as those of Iran or of North Korea.

The leaders and instigators of this new anti-Semitism are concentrated on the political left, its most active and vocal spokesmen being found in our prestige universities. Such is the anti-Zionist (anti-Semitic) focus of the left that, almost incomprehensibly, it includes a fair number of Jewish professors and other "intellectuals," not just here in the United States, but even in Israel itself.

Those on the extreme left call for the abolition of the State of Israel outright, although they do not tell us what they propose to do with the five million Israeli Jews. They would presumably be left to the tender mercies of the Arabs, who would, of course, have no greater joy than to emulate or perhaps even to "improve" on the Nazi model and to give "final solution(!) to the Jewish problem" once and for all. That isn't going to happen, of course, not because anybody in the world would lift a finger to prevent it, but because, fortunately, Israel is a very strong and most capable nation.

A death wish for Israel. In deference to "world opinion" and also to the wishes of the United States, Israel has allowed itself to be pressured into innumerable concessions to those who are sworn to destroy it. But it seems clear that, when the chips are really down, a most decisive response on the part of Israel can be expected. With the possible exception of Carthage during the Punic Wars, almost 2500 years ago, no country in the world, no country in recorded history, has ever been threatened with extinction. Israel is the one exception. Fueled by the extreme left, the "legitimacy" of Israel is a constant topic of discussion. The abolition of the "Zionist entity" gets serious attention, even in the hallowed halls of the United Nations. Iran feverishly pursues the Holy Grail of atomic weapons. Its president has publicly declared — not once, but repeatedly — that Israel is a "tumor" that must be excised and that it must be wiped off the map of the world. Medium-range missiles (so far, fortunately without atomic warheads) are being paraded through the streets of Teheran, with signs attached to them, shamelessly giving their destination as Jerusalem. A few eyebrows are being raised around the world, but otherwise nothing is being done about it.

Because the memory of the Nazi Holocaust still lingers after all these years, the new anti-Semitism is disguised as the socially more acceptable "anti-Zionism." It is pursued and propagated by the radical left. Every leftist demonstration — be it about the war in Iraq, against globalization, for or against whatever else — does inevitably include appeals against "Israeli subjugation of the Palestinians," the "occupation of Palestinian lands by Israel," or simply asks for the elimination of Israel. Sadly, quite a few Jews, having been saturated with leftism from their early years, participate in such demonstrations.

While the propagation of the new anti-Semitism by prestige universities started in Europe (mostly in England), it has found fertile ground in the universities of the United States. The active participation in the new anti-Semitism by the American clergy (beginning with the Presbyterians) is a scandalous reality.Surely, not everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite. The actions of Israel, just as the actions of any other countries, are subject to examination and criticism. But the viciousness, volume and consistency of this criticism against Israel is such that it cannot be considered as anything but anti-Semitism — the new anti-Semitism, disguised as anti-Israelism or anti-Zionism. The foolish professors and the hypocritical preachers are besotted by their leftism and by their hatred against Israel and America. Overt vilification of America has to remain muted — it's somewhat dangerous to be too outspoken about it — but Israel, perceived as the satrap and the handmaiden of the United States in the Middle East, is an easy target. Nobody should be fooled. Anti-Semitism is anti-Semitism in whichever way it may be disguised.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:18 PM

That's too long to read. It's more than one screen. Can you summrize ?
    Well, it fits my 30-inch screen (just barely), and that's the one we use to judge.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:20 PM

Why don't you take your pill for your attention-deficit disorder and then come back to it?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:22 PM

I'm sorry. I thought there were rules about cut and paste's that are larger than one screen.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:28 PM

Those rules do not ever seem to apply to Amos' posts/rants. And Guest, you can log in and say it. I will not bite you.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 10:43 PM

"With the possible exception of Carthage during the Punic Wars, almost 2500 years ago, no country in the world, no country in recorded history, has ever been threatened with extinction."

Actually, I think a number of countries have been threatened with extinction in recorded history...and have had it done to them too.

Not just Carthage by any means. Hitler basically wiped Poland off the map of Europe between 1939 and 1945, for instance. Had he won, Poland would be just a memory. There have been many small countries that were obliterated in wars. Some by the Romans, some by other conquering empires. The Spanish obliterated 2 advanced cultures in Central and South America, the Incas and the Aztecs. The Europeans wiped out several nations of Native Americans completely between 1500 and 1900. There are numerous nations of antiquity in both Europe and Asia which ceased utterly to exist after they were overrun and plundered by some larger entity.

So the position of Israel and the Jews is not as unique in this respect as some might think. But it sounds good to say it is, if you want to get people really worked up about it.

Read Hitler's rhetoric about the sufferings of Germany after WWI. A similar sense of outrage, of having been unfairly singled out for a uniquely horrible persecution as a nation, drove the Nazis into seeking military solutions in Europe where they were neither needed nor prudent. That caused them to become the pariah of Europe in the end.

The USA lifts far more than a finger to assist Israel in times of dire trouble. They airlifted so much equipment to them during the October War in '73 that it outdid the famed Berlin Airlift, and that is what allowed Israel to lauch a counteroffensive and reverse the fortunes of the Egyptian Army. Without the airlift, Israel would have lost that war in the Sinai...and the only question is, how far east would Sadat have sent his tanks? Israel is not nearly as alone in tough times as the article suggests.

Isn't it rather odd, in retrospect, that Hitler associated the Left WITH the Jews (while the author of the above article associates the Left with Anti-semitism)? He considered Communist Russia to be run BY the Jews! This would almost be funny if it weren't just totally sad...and if it had not had such horrific consequences in Germany and elsewhere.

It seems that the Left is the chosen boogeyman of both Nazis AND their most notable historical victims! The Left gets blamed for a lot.

People can believe anything. Just depends who they listen to.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Ebbie
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:18 PM

"Surely, not everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite. The actions of Israel, just as the actions of any other countries, are subject to examination and criticism." I'm glad that the author made that distinction. That's something that too many other people seem unable to grant.

I agree with mg. That article is not too long - keep in mind that Joe Offer now has a 30" screen and this certainly does not exceed that. And it is nicely broken into paragraphs for easy readability.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:28 PM

Personally, I don't know anyone in the class described by this article as desiring the eradication of Israel. I think it would be a catastrophe.

But I think it is important to notice when someone is using extreme rhetorical device and promoting hatred by attributing it to others.

Extremism in any camp is pretty ugly. So is paranoia.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:50 PM

I looked up paranoid in the dictionary and it said, "Why do you want to know?"


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Jan 06 - 11:51 PM

Ha! That's not what it said in MY dictionary. That message was clearly meant for YOU, Bruce! Listen up.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:14 AM

So which is it? Is Israel "a very strong and most capable nation", or is it being "threatened with extinction"?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:04 AM

"They would presumably be left to the tender mercies of the Arabs, who would, of course, have no greater joy than to emulate or perhaps even to "improve" on the Nazi model and to give "final solution(!) to the Jewish problem" once and for all."

The "Jewish problem" is only a problem in as much as there is an Israel in Palestine. Jews themselves, are not the problem. Their government and their policies toward Palestinians are the problem. I have never heard any mention of a Nazi model of problem solving.

As usual, this is a completely self serving article written by a very paranoid Jew who really needs to read some world history, not just the history of the Jews. The statement, "no country in the world, no country in recorded history, has ever been threatened with extinction," exemplifies the narrow perspective of the writer. As if the Jews were the only group of people who have ever suffered!

What about Armenia? What about Native America? What about Tibet? What about the Sudan or for that matter, Iraq?

So long as you and others continue to moan and complain that you are the only ones who have ever suffered, no one will be able to hear you. Perhaps you should be putting your energy into refusing to co-operate in the oppression of others. If Israel is so damn strong, why aren't they helping to prevent crimes against humanity?

I don't see too many Israeli soldiers on peace keeping missions.

Guess what - you may think that you are God's chosen people but nobody else believes that. You are no more special than any other group of people on Earth. Once you figure this out, we may be able to achieve world peace.

BTW, Martin - Take a clue from the article, "Surely, not everybody who criticizes Israel is an anti-Semite. The actions of Israel, just as the actions of any other countries, are subject to examination and criticism."

I rest my case.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:17 AM

I just now stumbled across this perspective that I had not encountered previously. According to these Jews, Zionism is against Jews...

http://www.inminds.co.uk/jews-against-zionism.html


"Zionism is Against Jews

For many of us the reason that we are adamantly opposed to Zionism is because yes its committing crimes against the Palestinian people, yes because its condemning Jews in Israel to a life of insecurity and danger, and yes because the Zionist movement ultimately said that Jewish life outside Palestine is not worth savings - the first president of the state of Israel Chaim Weisman referred to the Jews of Europe as human dust not worth saving.

For many of us the reason for our adamant opposition to Zionism is not only though it is as well seeing what it is doing to the Palestinians and seeing that there cannot be any solution, any just solution, any lasting solution in the middle-east that doesn't undo the wrong that has been done by the Zionist movement for Palestinians, but also because we say if there is again an up surge of hatred against Jews, the Zionists will not be the ones to protect us - they will be the ones to betray us. And for me certainly its an absolute fundamental for my whole political existence that Zionism is not just something I am opposed to - it is my enemy. This is part of the reason why we are taking steps to establish an organisation Jews Against Zionism"


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:34 AM

Is Abramoff a Zionist?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 04:00 AM

As I pointed out elsewhere, and mg didn't respond, if you can have a Jewish state, why not an Islamic one (yes I know they exist- but should they?)? A Christian one? an Aryan one? A White one, separate from a parallel Black one?

Racism is racism, irrespective of whom it is against, or favours.

The only way forward in that corner of the middle East is to acknowledge that 2000 years of generally- Semitic pagan culture was followed by 2000 years of developing Jewish culture, followed by 600 years of Roman and Byzantine culture, followed by 1300 years of Moslem culture... with people from most of the previous phases remaining in each subsequent phase. In other words, a pluralistic society in which all acknowledge that all the others have equal rights there.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Pied Piper
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:15 AM

Very succinctly put Paul and right on the money.
The organisations acronym says it all: clearly they don't do irony.

PP


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:46 AM

I agree Mr Gibbon, as an englishman I will not stop until your creed is wiped off the face of the planet, now where did I put my marmalade


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Wolfgang
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 07:53 AM

Paul,

you are the only one who has mentioned a 'Jewish state' in here.
With your argumentation in the last paragraph one could as well argue that all of middle Europe should be one single state or that the Western part of Poland and Germany should be united. Your implication is a recipe for disaster. Any people living together in a coherent patch of land should have the right to decide to live in a country of their own.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 08:07 AM

So you're saying Israel isn't a Jewish state? Or that Germany shouldn't be pluralist? I didn't say anything about state boundaries; they are necessary constructs for administrative convenience. And as for "Any people living together in a coherent patch of land should have the right to decide to live in a country of their own", don't talk tripe. As Woodrow Wison is supposed to have said sadly, "I didn't realise there were so many small nations".

No one has a "right" to live in a country "of their own". They have the right to live wherever they live. And they have the right not to be evicted to make space for someone else's project.

I'm assuming your rather odd formulation (living together/ coherent patch of land) wasn't a deliberate attempt to leave out the Roma.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:46 AM

Just some info here ... I have cut and pasted it, but what the hell...

Israeli Arabs, also referred to as Arab-Israelis, Arab citizens of Israel or Palestinian citizens of Israel, are Arabs who are citizens of Israel. Israeli Arabs are full citizens of the State of Israel, with equal protection under the law, and full rights of due process. Apart from the Druze (who are Arabs but form a distinct minority group) most Israeli Arabs are descendants of the roughly 150,000 Palestinians who remained within Israel borders during and after the Palestinian Exodus which resulted from the 1948 Arab-Israeli War, as many as 200,000 have emigrated into Israel from the Gaza Strip and West Bank [1]. Many Israeli Arabs share family and other ties with the Palestinians in these areas and in other Arab countries.

Israel also has a large population of Sephardi and Mizrahi Jews who fled or were expelled from Arab countries, mostly after 1948, or who are the descendants of those refugees. They are Israeli but are usually not identified as Arabs (although many of them are traditionally Arabic-speaking and hold on to Arab culture, tradition, cuisine,...).

Arabic, which is mostly spoken by the Arab minority, is one of Israel's official languages. In 2004, Israeli Arab citizens made up about 19.5% of Israel's population [2]. It is estimated that an additional 170,000 Palestinians live illegally in Israel [3] amongst the Israeli Arab population. Israeli Arabs sometimes consider themselves Palestinian, sometimes Israeli, and sometimes both. The majority of Israeli Arabs are Muslim and a minority are Christian. There are two additional distinct subgroups: followers of the Druze religion (about 120,000), and the Bedouin (170,000), who are predominantly Muslim [4].

Most Palestinian residents of East Jerusalem (about 250,000) are not Israeli citizens, but hold legal permanent resident status to live and travel within Israel. According to 1988 Israeli Supreme court ruling, this status also makes them eligible for Israel Social Security benefits and state-provided health care [5].

Well-known Israeli Arabs include the politician and novelist Emile Habibi, film directors Elie Suleiman and Hany Abu-Assad, and the politician Azmi Bishara. There are ten Israeli Arabs sitting as members of the 16th Knesset (there are a total of 120 seats), and there is currently an Arab judge (Justice Salim Jubran) sitting in the Israeli Supreme Court. The 1999 Miss Israel, Rana Raslan, was also an Israeli Arab. Ariel Sharon's 2001 cabinet included as a minister an Israeli Arab, Salah Tarif, and in March of 2005 Oscar Abu Razaq was appointed Director General of the Ministry of Interior.

Organisations representing Israeli Arabs allege that the population faces discrimination in a number of respects, arising from legislation and government policy. However, since the mid 1990s the government has adopted affirmative action policies in recruiting Israeli Arabs to the civil service.

Apart from the Druze, Israeli Arabs are not required to serve in the Israel Defense Forces, although some, notably among the Bedouin, volunteer to serve.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:08 PM

As some of clueless have mentioned on this forum, the ones who say they know Jews who do not support Israel, there is always going to be Jews who are loathsome of themselves and Israel just as there is a faction of them against American policies, also.

You misspelled "observant", 'Martin'. I'd say that it is your unsubstantiated opinion that those that do not "support Israel" (or actualy, more accurately, don't support at least some of the Israeli gummint's policies) are "self-loathing". As for Americans [more accurately, those in the U.S.] that are "against American policies", don't look now, 'Martin', but that seems to be a majority of the U.S. public.....

Keep whistlin', 'Martin'.

The hatred is aimed against the state of Israel, which, according to the new anti-Semites, represents all that is evil in the world....

Ummm, no, actually, this is according to you, 'Martin'. You're a liar when you say it's according to them.

Paul [peplying to Wolfgang]:

So you're saying Israel isn't a Jewish state?

Dunno what Wolfgang thinks, but 'Martin Gibson' made such a claim pretty much a centrepiece of his other "anti-Semitism" thread, with much ado about the Star if David on the flag and all. I will posit that Israel is not strictly speaking a "Jewish state", but it would be stretching reality far beyond the truth to overlook the religious aspect of the foundation of Israel and the pervasive influence, nay dominance, of the religious in Israeli gummint, notwithstanding they do have Arabs and/or Muslims in gummint even within Isreal proper.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Paul Burke
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:36 PM

Do all Arabs, as well as all Jews, have right of Israeli citizenship then? Do even all Palestinians, descendants of those who were refugees from the pre- 1967 Israel, have citizenship rights?

If not, why are individuals of one group (who may have no historical connection with the physical territory of Israel in the last 1500 years) given automatic rights, when others, who clearly have such a connection, denied them?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 12:52 PM

Non-Jewish Israelis do not have equal protection under the law. There are people there who are trying to change this state of affairs, but as things stand right now, there is no equal protection under the law for Jews and non-Jews in Israel.

One example of this is the law that prevents Palestinians who marry Israelis from living in Israel. Another is the law that prevents non-Jewish citizens who advocate positions that the Jewish Israelis don't like (for instance, ones who advocate allowing Palestinian refugees to return to what is now Israel), from serving in the Knesset. Laws governing property ownership are different for Jews and non-Jews also.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 01:53 PM

Do even all Palestinians, descendants of those who were refugees from the pre- 1967 Israel, have citizenship rights?

The Palestinians (within the occupied areas, as well as the Palestinian diaspora) do not have any rights to Israeli citizenship at this time.

Interestingly, according to this site, Israel does not recognize "Israeli" as a nationality...


"'The routine means for enforcing discrimination in everyday life is the ID card, which everyone is obliged to carry at all times. ID cards list the official 'nationality' of a person, which can be 'Jewish', 'Arab', 'Druze' and the like, with the significant exception of 'Israeli'. Attempts to force the Interior Minister to allow Israelis wishing to be officially described as 'Israeli', or even as 'Israeli-Jew' in their ID cards have failed. Those who have attempted to do so have a letter from the Ministry of the Interior stating that 'it was decided not to recognise an Israeli nationality'. The letter does not specify who made this decision or when.'

This was published over ten years ago and Shahak has been dead for about 4 years now but I am not aware of any change in the Israeli (or is it Jewish) position."

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2005/02/israel-doesnt-recognise-israel.html


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 02:13 PM

And according to this, children of non-Jewish Israelis are not guaranteed Israeli citizenship...


"I've been sent this report from the Arab Human Rights Association in Israel (AHRA). Headed 3 year old lives in anonymity in Baqa al Gharbiyyah, the article sets out how it is that the child of an Israeli mother is barred from attaining Israeli citizenship:

    The Israeli Interior Ministry continues to repeatedly refuse Israeli citizenship to Qadar Ismail Mawasi, who three years ago was born in Nabulus when her mother from Baqa al Gharbiyyah in Israel was visiting her husband in the West Bank city.

    Qadar's name was also not imprinted on her mother's ID as is usually done for children of Israeli parents. This denial of identity stems from the fact that she was born at the Rafidia hospital in Nabulus. Qadar's brothers, Fahmi and Ahmad are both Israeli citizens.

    Qadar's mother, Izdihar Mawasi, says, "When I was in my last month of pregnancy (3 years ago) I was visiting my husband Ismail at his home in Nabulus; being from the West Bank, he is forbidden entrance into Israel. During that visit, I felt that I was about to deliver, so began my return to Baqa al Gharbiyyah. However, I was stopped at the checkpoint leading into Israel due to a security closure. This kept me in Nabulus, even though I told security staff that I was on the verge of delivery". Shortly after Qadar was born, Izdihar's husband suffered a heart attack and passed away; all this time her daughter had been living with her in Baqa al Gharbiyyah in Israel.

    Izdihar then attempted to have her daughter registered at the Interior Ministry in Israel given their current residence within the State and Izdihar's status as an Israeli citizen, but was refused. Again, the reason given was that Qadar was born in Nabulus. Izdihar has been going to the Interior Ministry on multiple occasions (with all the appropriate documentation) but has continually been denied identity papers for her daughter.

    Izdihar fears much for her daughter's future because it rests in uncertainty. The fact that three year old Qadar has no identity papers implies she is not registered by the government, and therefore registering her in school and ensuring access to health care is also put into question."

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/

(Scroll down to "Right of return?")


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:01 PM

Guest, Arne

All you do is analyze and really seethe quite a bit of hate for Israel and Jews.

spin it any way you want, it's pretty obvious you are quite anti-semitic and anti-Israel.

Here's three more sentences for you to put into italics and hand wring on.

I posted this website to show you are one that FLAME has targeted, guest Arne. If I succedded in making one Mudcatter aware of that, then I am vindicated. The article is about you, guest Arne.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Don Firth
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:16 PM

Martin Gibson is merely spouting the "party line."

"The latest production of Israel's apologists is the "New Anti-Semitism." ...Thirty years ago, Anti-Defamation League national leaders Arnold Forster and Benjamin Epstein published to great fanfare a study entitled The New Anti-Semitism, and less than a decade later ADL national leader Nathan Perlmutter (with his wife, Ruth Ann Perlmutter) put out The Real Anti-Semitism in America, alleging yet again that the United States was awash in a new Anti-Semitism. The main purpose behind these periodic, meticulously orchestrated media extravaganzas is not to fight anti-Semitism, but rather to exploit the historical suffering of Jews in order to immunize Israel against criticism." (Norman Finkelstein, Beyond Chutzpah)

and

"The ADL has virtually abandoned its earlier role as a civil rights organization, becoming 'one of the main pillars' of Israeli propaganda in the U.S.… These efforts, buttressed by insinuations of anti-Semitism or direct accusations, are intended to deflect or undermine opposition to Israeli policies, including Israel's refusal, with U.S. support, to move towards a general political settlement." (Noam Chomsky, Necessary Illusions)

I didn't say it, Marty, so there's no point in attacking me. I'm just quoting two writers, both of whom are Jewish.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:44 PM

I had read an article a couple of years back of some Israeli company that imported Chinese workers and then passed a company policy forbidding them to date or marry Jewish women. Those who violated this law were to be immediately fired, charged for deportation costs and then deported.

While a lot of Jews were quick to point out that this was only that company's policy and not an official govt policy, it should not be held against Israel as a whole but only this company. I disagree, any govt that would allow such policy is automatically highly suspect.

Nor is such a policy becoming of a people who can't shut up about how intelligent and cosmopolitan they are. It is, in fact, a backward, racist policy that could only flourish in a backward, racist society.

It is one of the many reasons I dream of the complete destruction of Israel and those who support it. That's my zionist dream--the complete destruction of Zion and everything it stands for. If that makes me an "ntisemite" then I am a proud antisemite.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Sorcha
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:45 PM

Joe, can this thread be closed please?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:51 PM

Here's a really interesting account of someone who was accused of being a "self loathing Jew" by a guy named Nick Cohen (who claims to not be Jewish), using the pseudonym "Baruch Spinoza" (sneaky sneaky)...

http://jewssansfrontieres.blogspot.com/2005/11/nick-cohen-playing-dissident-jewish.html

It does look like the enforcers of the party line are starting to get a bit desperate.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:54 PM

"It is one of the many reasons I dream of the complete destruction of Israel and those who support it."

What a wonderful person you must be.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,Martin gibson
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 05:57 PM

Joe

Please do not close this thread!!

It is to important of a viewpoint! It is too real and too truthful!

It is also extremely informative and a position that is held by many.

Guest,AR282 is offended enough by it to show his true colors and his complete hate of a people because of one thing he cannot substantiate and probably made up. He should be banned for this kind of showing of hate. He does this forum no service and perhaps his hateful post should be pulled.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Arne
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:05 PM

'Martin Gibson':

All you do is analyze ....

Sounds to be a bit more constructive than ranting and foaming, I'd venture.

... and really seethe quite a bit of hate for Israel and Jews. [S]pin it any way you want, it's pretty obvious you are quite anti-semitic and anti-Israel.

Huh??? You really need to talk to the docs about titrating the Haldol up a notch, 'Martin'. AFAIK, I have said very little on Mudcat (or even other places) about my opinions on Israel (although I will grant that I think that Israel's security policies are -- and have been -- rather misguided). I personally think a lot of people of all faiths would have been spared a lot of trouble (if not bloodshed) had the United States offered a 'homeland' for the European and other displaced or disaffected Jews; we could have given them half of New Mexico, and it might well have been better land than Palestine. But then again, it wouldn't have had Jerusalem, and there's those folks that are like the Nemo seagulls about Jerusalem ... "mine, mine, mine".... Having gotten the "choice piece of real estate" they wanted, the Israelis ought not to start carving out more and more of other people's slices, unless they're looking for trouble. But I don't think its worthwhile for me to add any more. But to call me an Israel hater is just wrong, and I demand an apology, 'Martin'.

What's worse is that you claim I have "hatred for ... Jews". That is simply unacceptable behaviour, 'Martin', as it is a vicious lie, and in fact is akin -- given the historical connotations of such a charge -- to the "blood libel" that real anti-Semites have perpetrated against the Jews for centuries. Back up your scurrilous accusation with some evidence, or I'm going to have to ask the proprietors to delete your nasty lie.

Here's three more sentences for you to put into italics and hand wring on.

I put stuff in italics so people can see more easily who said what.

I posted this website to show you are one that FLAME has targeted, guest Arne.

Oooooohhhhhh. So "FLAME" has targetted little ol' me, eh? You know, 'Martin', if they have done so (which I doubt), they're so stoopid that they're more likely a danger to themselves than to me. But tell 'em for me, wouldja, "Bring it on....", seeing as you seem to know them well enough to speak for them.... I'll be waiting right over here.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:14 PM

>>Guest,AR282 is offended enough by it to show his true colors<<

I've always proudly displayed my colors. I am a total anti-zionist. Always have been, always will be.

>>and his complete hate of a people because of one thing he cannot substantiate and probably made up.<<

That's interesting, Marty. Because if that story is true, what is your take on it? Should Chinese men living in Israel be allowed to date Jewish Israeli women? And if you say yes, then aren't you bucking this wonderful zionist society you erroneously tout as the heart and soul of the Jewish people? So, tell us, Marty, is this a justifiable policy or not?

>>He should be banned for this kind of showing of hate. He does this forum no service and perhaps his hateful post should be pulled.<<

Best be careful what you wish for, Marty-boy.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:21 PM

>>What a wonderful person you must be.<<

Why don't you go to Israel first then come back and talk to me.

You can tell the Israeli Jews from the Palestinians really easily. When an Israeli Jew passes a Palestinian on the sidewalk, he pulls his shirt up over his head so as not to the breathe the air polluted with the breath of a Palestinian. And please don't take my word for it. Go to Israel. You will never be the same.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:30 PM

Since Zionists are fond of using ancient documents to substantiate their insane claims, then I say the following ancient document sums them up today very, very well:

Erz 9:1 Now when these things were done, the princes came to me, saying, The people of Israel, and the priests, and the Levites, have not separated themselves from the people of the lands, [doing] according to their abominations, [even] of the Canaanites, the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Jebusites, the Ammonites, the Moabites, the Egyptians, and the Amorites.


Ezr 9:2 For they have taken of their daughters for themselves, and for their sons: so that the holy seed have mingled themselves with the people of [those] lands: yea, the hand of the princes and rulers hath been chief in this trespass.


Ezr 9:3 And when I heard this thing, I rent my garment and my mantle, and plucked off the hair of my head and of my beard, and sat down astonied.


Ezr 9:4 Then were assembled unto me every one that trembled at the words of the God of Israel, because of the transgression of those that had been carried away; and I sat astonied until the evening sacrifice.


Ezr 9:5 And at the evening sacrifice I arose up from my heaviness; and having rent my garment and my mantle, I fell upon my knees, and spread out my hands unto the LORD my God,


Ezr 9:6 And said, O my God, I am ashamed and blush to lift up my face to thee, my God: for our iniquities are increased over [our] head, and our trespass is grown up unto the heavens.


Ezr 9:7 Since the days of our fathers [have] we [been] in a great trespass unto this day; and for our iniquities have we, our kings, [and] our priests, been delivered into the hand of the kings of the lands, to the sword, to captivity, and to a spoil, and to confusion of face, as [it is] this day.


Ezr 9:8 And now for a little space grace hath been [shewed] from the LORD our God, to leave us a remnant to escape, and to give us a nail in his holy place, that our God may lighten our eyes, and give us a little reviving in our bondage.


Ezr 9:9 For we [were] bondmen; yet our God hath not forsaken us in our bondage, but hath extended mercy unto us in the sight of the kings of Persia, to give us a reviving, to set up the house of our God, and to repair the desolations thereof, and to give us a wall in Judah and in Jerusalem.


Ezr 9:10 And now, O our God, what shall we say after this? for we have forsaken thy commandments,


Ezr 9:11 Which thou hast commanded by thy servants the prophets, saying, The land, unto which ye go to possess it, is an unclean land with the filthiness of the people of the lands, with their abominations, which have filled it from one end to another with their uncleanness.


Ezr 9:12 Now therefore give not your daughters unto their sons, neither take their daughters unto your sons, nor seek their peace or their wealth for ever: that ye may be strong, and eat the good of the land, and leave [it] for an inheritance to your children for ever.


Ezr 9:13 And after all that is come upon us for our evil deeds, and for our great trespass, seeing that thou our God hast punished us less than our iniquities [deserve], and hast given us [such] deliverance as this;


Ezr 9:14 Should we again break thy commandments, and join in affinity with the people of these abominations? wouldest not thou be angry with us till thou hadst consumed [us], so that [there should be] no remnant nor escaping?


Ezr 9:15 O LORD God of Israel, thou [art] righteous: for we remain yet escaped, as [it is] this day: behold, we [are] before thee in our trespasses: for we cannot stand before thee because of this.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 06:38 PM

Listen up O Presumptuous Poster: Who the hell said I haven't been to Israel? You in touch with an all-seeing eye?


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:02 PM

FREE ISRAELI JEWS FROM THE ZIONISTS!


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:03 PM

BRING DEMOCRACY TO THE MIDDLE EAST.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Peace
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 09:07 PM

find your capslock button a push it


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:02 PM

People who are criticized for things they do and yet don't want to be held personally responsible will invariably blame the critics for harboring hatred for them based on race, religion, nationality, baldness, heftiness, etc. For some people, this cloak of victimhood not only renders them immune to criticism, it turns the guilt back on the critic. If I condemn an asian man for committing murder, I can do so based on his action and not his race. Racism is the failure to condemn an Asian man who has done murder, not the opposite.
Nations, particularly nations who base their character and identity on race or religion, often act in the same way. I can criticize Israel for expansionism, police actions, the demolition of the homes of Palistinians etc without hating Jews. The Star of David on Israel's flag is not a badge of immunity from criticism. The fact that the government of Israel has made the decision to establish a State Religion is, I believe, a mistake. The idea that Israel has a claim on Palestinian or other territory based on Old Testament scripture is a concept that should carry no weight in the rest of the world.
In the same regard, I reserve the right to criticize India without hating Hindus and to criticize Ireland without hating Catholics. Martin's insistence on calling criticism of Israel anti-semitism is a cheap attempt to cloak his own point of view behind the impenetrable shield of anti-semitism. His mention of "radical liberals" is an even clearer statement of his true agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 10:27 PM

How are Jews treated in Algeria?

How are Jews treated in Iran?

How are Jews treated Saudi Arabia?

How are Jew treated in Syria?

How are Jews treated in Egypt?

Does it matter?

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:01 PM

In all of these places, they got the hell out. Why? Because they fear for their lives there I would think.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:03 PM

Critism of FLAME only tends to fan it and make it burn brighter. It also continues to bring out many who hate Israel here and it's primary citizen base.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:36 PM

Of course it matters. But that has nothing to do with people in the US protesting how our tax dollars are being used.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:40 PM

Then why don't you high tail it out of the U.S. ... bout time Jack the Sailor got back here ... then you would have such a negative excuse about where your tax $$ go to.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:42 PM

Because, last time I checked, the United States was still being called a "free country".

Israel does NOT have a right to chase me out of my own country. And if you think they do, you are in for a very rude awakening.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:50 PM

Yikes!

Carol C. with an RPG launcher over her shoulder standing on her front lawn.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: CarolC
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:51 PM

Nope. Just me with my trusty computer and internet connection. The pen is far mightier than the sword.


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Subject: RE: BS: FLAME and radical liberal anti-semitism
From: number 6
Date: 01 Feb 06 - 11:58 PM

But your not using a pen ... just to be difficult here.

Do you complain to your government representatives about you issue with tax $$ .. are there not organizations which you can join to amplfy your voice of objection?

sIx


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