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BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...

CarolC 05 Jan 06 - 01:26 PM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jan 06 - 01:04 PM
CarolC 05 Jan 06 - 11:21 AM
Dave the Gnome 05 Jan 06 - 04:01 AM
CarolC 04 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 06 - 06:47 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM
bobad 04 Jan 06 - 06:42 PM
Dave the Gnome 04 Jan 06 - 06:40 PM
Peace 03 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM
Leadfingers 03 Jan 06 - 12:48 PM
CarolC 03 Jan 06 - 11:37 AM
CarolC 03 Jan 06 - 12:38 AM
beardedbruce 02 Jan 06 - 06:22 AM
beardedbruce 02 Jan 06 - 06:09 AM
CarolC 30 Dec 05 - 11:19 AM
CarolC 30 Dec 05 - 11:13 AM
beardedbruce 30 Dec 05 - 10:47 AM
Little Hawk 30 Dec 05 - 10:43 AM
beardedbruce 30 Dec 05 - 10:37 AM
CarolC 30 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM
beardedbruce 30 Dec 05 - 08:36 AM
Once Famous 29 Dec 05 - 09:09 PM
Little Hawk 29 Dec 05 - 06:46 PM
GUEST,Queen Esther 29 Dec 05 - 06:22 PM
InOBU 28 Dec 05 - 11:51 PM
GUEST,Troll 28 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM
Donuel 28 Dec 05 - 08:57 PM
Peace 28 Dec 05 - 08:06 PM
CarolC 28 Dec 05 - 08:02 PM
CarolC 28 Dec 05 - 07:29 PM
pdq 28 Dec 05 - 07:06 PM
CarolC 28 Dec 05 - 06:32 PM
Little Hawk 28 Dec 05 - 05:59 PM
Wolfgang 28 Dec 05 - 05:47 PM
Once Famous 27 Dec 05 - 05:47 PM
GUEST,Geoduck 27 Dec 05 - 02:52 PM
Ebbie 26 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM
Once Famous 26 Dec 05 - 10:06 PM
CarolC 26 Dec 05 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Merde, alors! 26 Dec 05 - 01:08 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 26 Dec 05 - 01:05 PM
Once Famous 26 Dec 05 - 12:30 PM
Donuel 26 Dec 05 - 12:01 PM
CarolC 26 Dec 05 - 11:27 AM
Once Famous 24 Dec 05 - 09:12 PM
Dave (the ancient mariner) 24 Dec 05 - 09:07 PM
Once Famous 24 Dec 05 - 08:56 PM
GUEST 24 Dec 05 - 08:09 PM
GUEST 24 Dec 05 - 08:03 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 01:26 PM

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 01:04 PM

Ahhhh - Well I thought it looked like you could have been implying that I could have been intimating that that you intended to implicate me in infering that you might be asking an incidious question based on an assumption that I believed that you thought that I might have deduced that you guessed that I may have a vague idea of what I was talking about. When I didn't at all.

But now I know better. Unless you HAVE been talking to my mother...

:D


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 11:21 AM

What did you mean by your question?

It looked like you could have been implying that, but I didn't want to assume. So I asked. Thanks for clearing it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 05 Jan 06 - 04:01 AM

Carol, in a nutshell, No.

Longer story - I never try to imply anything. If I am going to say something I say it. I find implication, hint and heresay quite ridiculous in an argument. Sarcasm, irony and downright offensiveness are quite different kettles of fish of course:-)

What did you mean by your question? I could understand you laughing at my mistake or dismissing the whole post on the basis that I cocked it up. Did you intend to imply that I may have meant something I did not mean but implied that I intended to do something else?

Hope that has cleared it up...


Cheers

DtG
(Only my mother uses David btw and you can't fool me - She hasn't got a computer. Unless...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 09:19 PM

DAVID the Gnome...

When you said this in your 04 Jan 06 - 06:40 PM post:

Or did that not happen either? Perhaps like the Hollocaust?

Did you intend to imply that I am a holocaust denier?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:47 PM

I noticed before you posted bobad - Honest! But thanks for pointing it out anyway:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:46 PM

Sorry all - and to Carol and the people of Iran especialy! - I replaced a q with an n of course! I don't think the Iranians are entirely blameless - Remember the Iranian embassy seige in 1980? But to tar their leaders with the same brush as Hussain was very wrong of me and done entirely by mistake. I would say Mea Maxima Culpa but that would give my religion away so I'll say very sorry again instead:-(

Anyhow - the rest of my post still stands:-)

Cheers

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: bobad
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:42 PM

It was Iraq, Dave.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 04 Jan 06 - 06:40 PM

Which wars did Iran start in the last quarter century?

I'm pretty sure it was Iran that invaded Kuwait. Or am I missing something? I'm pretty sure it was Husssain and his henchmen that tried to chemicaly clense the Kurds out of existance. Or did that not happen either? Perhaps like the Hollocaust?

I genuinely believe that most Arabs, be they Moslem, Christian or Jew, do not want wars. Just as most members of the afore mentioned religions don't. I think we will see, in our lifetime, the moderation of the peoples of the middle east come to fruition. The Christians have been about for 2000 years - and they have not fully accepted moderation yet. The Jews have been about for over twice as long and they can still throw the odd missile about - Mind you 14 million Jews surrounded by 1.4 billion Moslems could make them a little jumpy! The Moslems have only been around 1500 years or so. Hopefuly they will show everyone that the majority are moderate sooner than the other major faiths have. We can but pray:-)

Mind you, once that threat has past which bogeyman can the powers that be blame for all the worlds ills then? The Mudcat perhaps. Or some of it's more radical members...;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 08:10 PM

"The Persian Wars started in 490 B.C. The war started when the Persians built a vast empire and tried to conquer Greece."


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Leadfingers
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:48 PM

100 !!!! (Or is that too Immoderate?)


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 11:37 AM

Ha. Looks like I missed your correction post (must have been the birthday champagne).

However, whether or not Iran is warlike is a matter of history. They are warlike because they often start wars. Just look at the last quarter century.

Which wars did Iran start in the last quarter century?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 03 Jan 06 - 12:38 AM

However, whether or not Iran is warlike is a matter of history. They are warlike because we often start wars. Just look at the last quarter century.

They are warlike because we often start wars?

My complaint is that there are too few in the Arab media, the Arab governments, and here in the US willing to CONDEMM what some of the world feels is unacceptable threats to the existance of nation.

But we see over and over, whenever Arab media or politicians do condemn things like that, they are called liars and people accuse them of not being sincere. Doesn't matter what they do... they're going to be slammed for it either way.

Note that he did not say " unless they do x or y": He presumes the destruction of an entire people.

He's not calling for the destruction of an entire people. He's talking about the dismantling of a political entity. He want's to move the people who reside within the area governed by that political entity someplace else... certainly a reprehensible thing in itself, but he did not say anything at all about what should happen to the Jews in the Diaspora, and he has not called for killing anyone. His comments are not at all the same thing as calling for the destruction of an entire people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:22 AM

They often start wars...

Too early to be typing...


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 02 Jan 06 - 06:09 AM

CarolC,

However, whether or not Iran is warlike is a matter of history. They are warlike because we often start wars. Just look at the last quarter century.


"but that still doesn't support the idea that there is any shortage of moderate Muslims attempting to be heard. "

My complaint is that there are too few in the Arab media, the Arab governments, and here in the US willing to CONDEMM what some of the world feels is unacceptable threats to the existance of another nation. Note that he did not say " unless they do x or y": He presumes the destruction of an entire people.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:19 AM

One person who is president of a ( soon to be) nuclear power. So, when the world press concentrates on Bush, and the world thinks the US is warlike, you will agree that the problem is the prejudices of the world press, and NOT the policies advocated by Bush?

When the world press concentrates on Bush, they are certainly ignoring quite a lot of other people who deserve scrutiny. However, whether or not the US is warlike is a matter of history. We are warlike because we often start wars.

And I agree that Ahmadinejad is too dangerous to be president of Iran, but that still doesn't support the idea that there is any shortage of moderate Muslims attempting to be heard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 11:13 AM

Here's another story we didn't hear about in the West - moderate Muslim youth putting their lives on the line to protect Christians against extremists in Indonesia...

http://www.financialexpress.com/latest_full_story.php?content_id=111034

"JAKARTA, DECEMBER 9: Volunteers from Indonesia's largest Islamic organisation will guard churches across the world's most populous Muslim nation on Christmas amid fears of terrorist attacks on those places, the group said on Friday.

Jakarta police have said they would boost security in the capital ahead of Christmas to avoid a repeat of 2000 Christmas Eve bombings on churches in several Indonesian cities, including in the country's capital.

A youth wing affiliated with Indonesia's largest Muslim group Nahdlatul Ulama, some 40 million strong, said that members would guard churches for the coming Christmas festivities and it had persuaded youths from other religions to join the project."


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:47 AM

LH,

"No modern public would support the idea of wars of aggression, were they properly informed about all the factors involved from the start. "

Agreed. The problem is that the definition of aggression is not always clear. Is it aggression to wage war to remove people from a land a group thinks it should have? Or to prevent genocide?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:43 AM

Well, if you want a war and support for further war, what events would you choose to focus on? Those that unite people or those that divide them? Do you really imagine that it's all just accidental how the news gets reported? I don't. There are big interests involved in all of this.

"Brave New World" and "1984" were both prescient books, inacurrate in a detailed sense, rather more accurate in their general theme. We are living in a society based upon mass manipulation of people's appetites, desires, habits, and expectations. Majority viewpoint is a carefully manufactured item these days...just as it was in the Third Reich.

No modern public would support the idea of wars of aggression, were they properly informed about all the factors involved from the start.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:37 AM

"the fault lies in the prejudices of the Western media, who refuse to cover these things when they happen"

100% agreement on this.


"Ahmadinejad's remarks. Even though he was only one person and the moderates were many"

One person who is president of a ( soon to be) nuclear power. So, when the world press concentrates on Bush, and the world thinks the US is warlike, you will agree that the problem is the prejudices of the world press, and NOT the policies advocated by Bush?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM

Yes, you are correct, beardedbruce. When I went back to look at previous posts this is the one I noticed...

Just because you haven't seen or heard the criticisms from moderate Arabs doesn't mean they didn't happen.

I stand corrected on my use of the word "condemn". But upon reflection, I don't necessarily think that "condemn" is too strong a word for some of the things I read coming from some of the Arab sources I quoted. Especially the ones who compared Ahmadinejad to Saddam Hussein and Muammar Gadhafi.

As we can see from Little Hawk's experience with the media coverage (or appalling lack of coverage) of the demonstration by Muslim moderates in Bangladesh, the fault lies not with the moderate Muslims, who are certainly taking a stand against extremism... the fault lies in the prejudices of the Western media, who refuse to cover these things when they happen.

And even when they do cover them, they try to spin their coverage so that the real story... the large numbers of moderate voices, don't get heard, and only the few extremists (like Ahmadinejad for instance), get noticed.

That event at which Ahmadinejad made those remarks was a very important event. It was Arab and Muslim moderates taking a stand against extremism and violence. But did you happen to notice it? No, of course you didn't. And that's because all of the news media was focused on only one thing... Ahmadinejad's remarks. Even though he was only one person and the moderates were many. And in the aftermath, even though there were moderate voices criticizing (and in some cases, condemning) those remarks, the Western media did everything they could to downplay any critical responses from Arabs and Muslims.

The problem lies more with the prejudices of the Western media against Arabs and Muslims than anything else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 30 Dec 05 - 08:36 AM

...
From: CarolC - PM
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:14 AM

BTW, Moderate "Arab" governments and media did indeed condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks. I saw several stories that were specifically about those condemnations. For CNN or anyone else to say otherwise is a lie. And you are helping them to spread that (prejudiced) lie, beardedbruce.
.........................................

From: CarolC - PM
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 08:02 PM

...
_____________________

Anyway, I didn't say any of the Arab sources had condemned what Ahmadinejad said. That's your straw man argument, Wolfgang. I said they criticized Ahmadinejad's remarks. And I have already provided several examples of those criticisms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Once Famous
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 09:09 PM

Perhaps they should hire some new PR people. They sure could use some.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:46 PM

In regards to this thread...I see a picture today in the Toronto Star of a mass demonstration by Muslims in Bangladesh AGAINST Muslim militancy, suicide bombings, and such violent tactics by Muslim militants...and in favour of peaceful coexistence between Muslims and other people. It was organized by the largest Muslim political party in Bangladesh.

I have read no articles about it anywhere, but they did print the photo.

Maybe it is not really considered to be all that "newsworthy". Whaddya think? Too much like good news?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,Queen Esther
Date: 29 Dec 05 - 06:22 PM

Well... since most Americans can't tell an "Arab" from many muslim cultures in the vaguely same region, I start by saying a Persian ( Iraqui-AMerican) journalist - when we were in high school together, Anisa Mehdi, taught this Quaker a huge amount about moderation and fairmindedness. ... and yes I have known a number of moderate "Arabic" people as well...
lor


Judging from your post, you're like "most Americans" that you complain about. Persians come from Iran. Iraq is an Arab society. If your friend was Iraqi, he was either Arab (most likely) or Kurdish. If he was Persian, he originated in Iran.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 11:51 PM

Well... since most Americans can't tell an "Arab" from many muslim cultures in the vaguely same region, I start by saying a Persian ( Iraqui-AMerican) journalist - when we were in high school together, Anisa Mehdi, taught this Quaker a huge amount about moderation and fairmindedness. ... and yes I have known a number of moderate "Arabic" people as well...
lor


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,Troll
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 10:02 PM

Peice is brilliant!


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 08:57 PM

I believe some of you here are ignoring the war culture of America and the tradition of American military schools and culture.
Of course I don't expect anyone here to have attended the College of the Americas.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 08:06 PM

"Iran is setting itself up to be nuked by Israel and they are giving Israel the perfect excuse."

This coming from the same troll who said WMDs had been found in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 08:02 PM

From Wolfgang's link...

"Teheran s'est efforce jeudi de minimiser la portee des propos d' Ahmadinejad. 'La politique de l' Iran vis-a-vis d'Israel restera inchangee. Nous ne voulons pas de confrontation avec l'Occident', a assure a Reuters un responsable iranien ayant requis l'anonymat.

'Ahmadinejad a exprime son souhait, mais cela ne signifie pas que l'Iran va prendre des mesures concretes pour detruite l'Etat d'Israel', a-t-il ajoute."

_____________________

Anyway, I didn't say any of the Arab sources had condemned what Ahmadinejad said. That's your straw man argument, Wolfgang. I said they criticized Ahmadinejad's remarks. And I have already provided several examples of those criticisms.

But on the subject of straw man argumentations, it is a straw man argument to imply that such discussion is not taking place just because one has not seen it. And people are implying just that here in this thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 07:29 PM

So according to the "diplo-speak" way of understanding people, I guess we should interpret the Israeli government's statements that they are "willing to consider a two state solution" to mean, "we will continue to consider it for as long as it takes us to clear all of the Palestinians off of their land".


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: pdq
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 07:06 PM

From: CarolC - PM
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 11:42 AM

"Defending the Arab World's policy towards Israel, Turki said Arab states have "made our peace" with the creation of Israel. He evoked a Saudi peace plan adopted by the Arab League in 2002, committing Arab nations to a peace process with Israel should the Jewish State agree to concede land it captured during the 1967 war and the creation of the Palestinian state. The Arab World will in return recognize Israel's right to exist and push for normalization."

Actually, that statement says "we will never recognise Israel and will never recognise it's right to exist unless Israel retreats back to the pre-1967 war borders AND creates a new state called Palestine. Until then, we reserve the right to drive all Jews into the ocean and shoot all of those who can swim."

You just have to understand diplo-speak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 06:32 PM

all of those who are saying they have made exhaustive searches of "Arab media" and found nothing... (Carol)

A nice example of a strawman argumentation


Except, Wolfgang Wolfgang Wolfgang, I really would like to know where those who state categorically that such dialogue is not taking place, are, in fact, looking.

So wrong again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 05:59 PM

The common thing in life is...people find exactly what they are predisposed to look for, and don't usually seem to find much else.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Dec 05 - 05:47 PM

all of those who are saying they have made exhaustive searches of "Arab media" and found nothing... (Carol)

A nice example of a strawman argumentation.

No one has claimed to have made an 'exhaustive' search and I guess no one ever could both for a lack of knowledge of the language and for a lack of access to all of these media.

You can be sure, Carol, that nobody comes up to claim that but that proves nothing.

You'd like to have a look at Arab media yourself, you say. Have a look here for one instance in which there was mere reporting (including the reactions) and nothing else. There have been condemning Arab/Muslim voices for Ahmadinejad's neo-Nazi remarks, but an overview of the Muslim press in a German newspaper has summarized that most of them only reported without comment.

Wolfgang

Wolfgang

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Once Famous
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 05:47 PM

Go for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,Geoduck
Date: 27 Dec 05 - 02:52 PM

BB is right.

Iran is setting itself up to be nuked by Israel and they are giving Israel the perfect excuse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM

The posts of 9:07 and 9:12 agree that "we are next". Please, Dave, who is "we"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 10:06 PM

Guest, Merde, alors or whatever you call yourself.

Yeah, I see those Christian fundamentalists on TV cable stations. They are pretty harmless compared to the Islamic terrorists you DON'T see until they detonate themselves.

Two different types of bird, pal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 03:14 PM

On the subject of Muslim martyrs...

About Muslims who died fighting Hitler


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,Merde, alors!
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 01:08 PM

But you do hear fundamentalist Christians referring to "secular humanists" with a great degree of comtempt. Same difference. An "infidel" is someone who doesn't believe as you do.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 01:05 PM

Donuel, The Arabs own the oil and are rich because of it. Oil is not the issue. People who train and encourage their young to become suicide bombers; and who use a religion to justify murder are the issue and are not fit to exist on this planet full stop. Enough said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Once Famous
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 12:30 PM

Donuel, I don't see any Christian suicide bombers, Donuel. Nor do I see any Christians calling anyone infidels, either asking for the destruction ofr a whole nation such as Israel.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Donuel
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 12:01 PM

This thread has inspired me to answer this question with a picture of people waitng atop thick ice, atop the fringes of hell for a moderate Islamic voice.
However, I am not entirely sure if it is deserved.

The hearts of men greedy for oil is what seems to have frozen over.
Hell seems hotter and busier than ever.
A lack of moderate voices is not soley an Arab domain.

By having a supposed Christian fundamentalist US president and a terrorist enemy defined by Muslim fundamentalist voices, we have seen the building of a perfect storm.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 11:27 AM

Look again at the article in my 24 Dec 05 - 11:42 AM post, Guest, 24 Dec 05 - 06:48 PM. The Saudi Arabian envoy to U.S. disagreed with the Holocaust denial, saying the "Holocaust is undisputed 'historical fact'"

And now, all of those who are saying they have made exhaustive searches of "Arab media" and found nothing, tell me which "Arab media" you have searched. I'd like to have a look at those media myself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 09:12 PM

Well said, Dave.

Unfortunately we don't hearthe condemnation nearly as loud as we hear the statements. And you are right. We will be next after Israel. The process has already started. Too many here way to blind and stupid to realize that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 09:07 PM

The modern state of Israel was forged in the fires of Belsen, Dachau, Aushwitz et al... As the most persecuted race of people on this planet who can deny the Jews of Israel the right to exist?
There is enough room for us all, and the statements from Iran scare the hell out of me, because we will be next after Israel. Fanaticism of this kind cannot be tolerated by any peace loving people of any religion. It is time we hear condemnation of these extremists and we need help to eliminate this threat to world peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Once Famous
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 08:56 PM

Bearded Bruce, I want to thank you for starting this thread. If you wouldn't have done it, I would have done the same as you, just put it out there like you did and watch all of the usual anti-Jew, anti-Israel types condemn it and hence be just as fanatic as the Iranian and Egyptian Islamic morons who downplay the holocaust.

These Mudcatters do it everytime and they are truly Mudcat's disgrace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 08:09 PM

also

More than one in seven people in Britain believe the scale of the Nazi Holocaust against Jews is exaggerated, according to a poll published on Friday.


The findings of the ICM survey, conducted for the Jewish Chronicle newspaper, showed that 15% of those polled agreed the scale of the Holocaust has been exaggerated.

Seventy percent disagreed with the statement, and 62% disagreed with it strongly, according to the survey, which was published in the left-wing Guardian daily newspaper.

Historians put the number of Jews killed during the Holocaust at around six million - a statistic compiled from post-World War II census numbers.

Moreover, nearly 20% of those questioned in the poll - timed to coincide with Holocaust Memorial Day next Tuesday - said that a Jewish prime minister would be less acceptable than a member of any other faith.

Asked whether a British Jew would make an equally acceptable prime minister as a member of any other faith, 53% agreed and 18% disagreed, 11% strongly.

....................


I guess we can't complain about an Arab leader making statements that so many in Britain agree with.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 08:03 PM

Al jezeera

The leader of Egypt's Muslim Brotherhood has said that when he called the Holocaust a myth this week, he did not mean to say it never happened but wanted to highlight the West's attitude toward democracy.


The office of Muhammad Mahdi Akif, the "general guide" of the Islamist opposition group, said in a statement on Saturday that his remark on Thursday was meant merely to make a point about the West's attitude towards democracy and the Palestinians.

In a message on Thursday, Akif said: "Western democracy has attacked everyone who does not share the vision of the sons of Zion as far as the myth of the Holocaust is concerned."

.....

also

The head of the Muslim Brotherhood, the main opposition force in Egypt's parliament, has echoed Iran's president in describing the Holocaust as a myth.


"Western democracy has attacked everyone who does not share the vision of the sons of Zion as far as the myth of the Holocaust is concerned," Mohamed Akef said in a statement on Thursday.
   
Akef cited as evidence of Western intolerance the cases of Roger Garoudy, the writer who was convicted in France in 1998 of questioning the Holocaust, and David Irving, a British historian who faces similar charges in Austria next month.
   
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, caused an international uproar when he said in a speech on 14 December that the Holocaust was a myth.
   
An estimated six million Jews were killed by the Nazis and their allies between 1933 and 1945.

Last week Mohamed Habib, the deputy leader of the Brotherhood, asked about Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust, said reports of Nazi attempts to wipe out European Jews might have been exaggerated.
   
"We don't have confirmed things to enable us to prove this matter or refute it," he said. "It needs documentation but what one can be sure of is that there were attacks on the Jews but not by means of gas chambers or perhaps not in these numbers or on this scale."
   
But Habib said the debate was irrelevant to the situation of the Palestinians. "What the Jews propagate about there being a Holocaust has nothing to do with the way they treat the Palestinians on the land of Palestine," he said.

...........

and

The head of the Muslim Brotherhood, the main opposition force in Egypt's parliament, has echoed Iran's president in describing the Holocaust as a myth.


"Western democracy has attacked everyone who does not share the vision of the sons of Zion as far as the myth of the Holocaust is concerned," Mohamed Akef said in a statement on Thursday.
   
Akef cited as evidence of Western intolerance the cases of Roger Garoudy, the writer who was convicted in France in 1998 of questioning the Holocaust, and David Irving, a British historian who faces similar charges in Austria next month.
   
Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, the Iranian president, caused an international uproar when he said in a speech on 14 December that the Holocaust was a myth.
   
An estimated six million Jews were killed by the Nazis and their allies between 1933 and 1945.

Last week Mohamed Habib, the deputy leader of the Brotherhood, asked about Ahmadinejad's denial of the Holocaust, said reports of Nazi attempts to wipe out European Jews might have been exaggerated.
   
"We don't have confirmed things to enable us to prove this matter or refute it," he said. "It needs documentation but what one can be sure of is that there were attacks on the Jews but not by means of gas chambers or perhaps not in these numbers or on this scale."
   
But Habib said the debate was irrelevant to the situation of the Palestinians. "What the Jews propagate about there being a Holocaust has nothing to do with the way they treat the Palestinians on the land of Palestine," he said.

......


Not a single word about the statement being wrong... Just that we don't understand what he was saying.


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