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BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...

GUEST,beardedbruce 23 Dec 05 - 01:24 AM
GUEST 23 Dec 05 - 01:27 AM
Gervase 23 Dec 05 - 04:15 AM
Paco Rabanne 23 Dec 05 - 04:18 AM
Wilfried Schaum 23 Dec 05 - 04:22 AM
freda underhill 23 Dec 05 - 04:26 AM
Gervase 23 Dec 05 - 04:39 AM
Terry K 23 Dec 05 - 04:44 AM
GUEST 23 Dec 05 - 04:48 AM
Gervase 23 Dec 05 - 05:40 AM
PeteBoom 23 Dec 05 - 08:28 AM
M.Ted 23 Dec 05 - 10:01 AM
CarolC 23 Dec 05 - 10:10 AM
CarolC 23 Dec 05 - 10:14 AM
Gervase 23 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,rarelamb 23 Dec 05 - 10:37 AM
artbrooks 23 Dec 05 - 10:40 AM
Grab 23 Dec 05 - 12:10 PM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 12:21 PM
CarolC 23 Dec 05 - 01:34 PM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 23 Dec 05 - 01:41 PM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 01:42 PM
CarolC 23 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 23 Dec 05 - 02:22 PM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 02:24 PM
beardedbruce 23 Dec 05 - 05:40 PM
CarolC 23 Dec 05 - 06:28 PM
GUEST 23 Dec 05 - 07:11 PM
GUEST 23 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 07:24 PM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 07:25 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 23 Dec 05 - 07:32 PM
Amos 23 Dec 05 - 08:16 PM
CarolC 23 Dec 05 - 08:19 PM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 08:20 PM
CarolC 23 Dec 05 - 08:52 PM
GUEST 23 Dec 05 - 08:57 PM
John O'L 23 Dec 05 - 09:17 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 23 Dec 05 - 09:25 PM
GUEST 23 Dec 05 - 09:32 PM
RichM 23 Dec 05 - 09:33 PM
RichM 23 Dec 05 - 09:43 PM
GUEST 23 Dec 05 - 09:50 PM
GUEST 23 Dec 05 - 09:58 PM
John O'L 23 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM
GUEST,beardedbruce 23 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM
mg 24 Dec 05 - 12:41 AM
CarolC 24 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM
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Subject: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:24 AM

"CAIRO, Egypt (AP) -- The leader of Egypt's main Islamic opposition group said Thursday the Holocaust was a "myth," and he slammed Western governments for criticizing disclaimers of the Jewish genocide."


"Similar comments by Ahmadinejad earlier this month sparked an international outcry. The Iranian president called the Holocaust -- in which an estimated 6 million Jews were killed -- a "myth" and said Europeans have used it to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world. (Full story)

He also said Israel should be "wiped off the map."

Arab governments and media did not condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks."


http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/africa/12/22/muslim.brotherhood.ap/index.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:27 AM

What's new, no offence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:15 AM

Islamic does not fully equate to Arab, just as Christian does not fully equate to Western. There are plenty of moderate Arab voices around.
In the current climate, however, their views are not as newsworthy to the western media (particularly the US media) as those of the hawks and tub-thumpers.
So what point, exactly, is Bearded Bruce trying to make? Is he hoping that we'll all leap up and say "Yee Haw, these crazy rag-heads, they're all mad. Let's just nuke 'em. Heck the only good Ayrad is a dead Ayrab."? What a super way to foster understanding and trust between cultures!
A shame, though, that the US military planning and diplomatic circles seem to be full of intellectual pygmies like Bearded Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:18 AM

Gervase,
       Shouldn't you be plastering something?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Wilfried Schaum
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:22 AM

Well said, Gervase. The average and reasonable is not mediaworthy.
I know a lot of Arabs - Muslims and Christians - with very moderate opinions, but they will never make it to the newspapers.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:26 AM

I agree, Wilfried.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:39 AM

Sorry, fted, you're right! I did use the word 'hawk', though, so there's a plastering reference...


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Terry K
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:44 AM

Ah, but would beardedbruce's bullshit work as well as cowshit?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:48 AM

Gervase,

So, rather than critisize the person MAKING the statement,you attack me for bringing it to your attention. That sounds like the limit of your intellectual ability.


"Arab governments and media did not condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks"


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:40 AM

No, you clot, I was merely asking why you brought it to our attention. And the reason was...?
I've noticed that you seem to do an awful lot of cut and paste on CNN links. I'm afraid that doesn't make you an informed commentator on foreign affairs.
In case you still don't get the message, What is your point?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: PeteBoom
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:28 AM

I've run into a fair number of people in the States who would agree with the sentiments expressed. Of course, they'd be a little perplexed to discover they'd agreed with an "Aa-rab" and may react in an eratic fashion. They have "proof" that all the people who go on about the "so-called Holocaust" are part of the left-wing-liberal-Jewish conspiracy.

I wonder if Rush Limbaugh knows he's a liberal?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: M.Ted
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:01 AM

Bearded Bruce has a point, but, since he knows nothing about Middle Eastern politics, and is unable to formulate or express his own ideas, he cuts, pastes, and rants, hoping that people will understand--which they don't-

There is an incredible amount of anti-Israeli/anti-Jewish feeling in the Middle East--and it is increasing.

It is true that Israel hasn't always been exactly what you'd call a good neighbor, and also true that the Palestinian/Israeli situation has an unfortunate history that has tainted both sides. Given that, though, Israel is a small country in a big region, and plays little to no role in the day to day lives, and poitics, of most Arabs and Moslems--

The reality is that there is little political or economic stability in the Middle East, and where it exists at all, it is at the price of great social, political, and religious repression. There are hundreds of political groups vying for power, and, as we well know, the easy way to gather a following is to create a vile, despicable, and evil enemy, and lead the fight against it--

Because of the unfortunate Palestinian situation, Israel is a great target, and all the racist, anti-Semitic lies that have been so useful for Western demigogues are being dredged up and put to use again--That's the point--


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:10 AM

You are quoting extremists, beardedbruce. Moderate "Arab" voices are all around you. If you want to hear them, take your earplugs out (and take your blinders off).


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:14 AM

BTW, Moderate "Arab" governments and media did indeed condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks. I saw several stories that were specifically about those condemnations. For CNN or anyone else to say otherwise is a lie. And you are helping them to spread that (prejudiced) lie, beardedbruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM

Thank you M.Ted; a succinct and sensible summary. And worth more than half a hundred odd snip'n'pastes from Bearded Bruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:37 AM

The notion of an Jewish state in Germany was interesting. Since the Germans killed so many Jews, shouldn't they take responsibility for the creation of a Jewish state on former German territory?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: artbrooks
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:40 AM

Iranians are not Arabs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Grab
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:10 PM

Bruce, I went Googling to support your assertion that "Arab governments and media did not condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks."

The Saudis did
An Iranian paper did
A nice summary of the situation from the AP, including rejection of the comments by a Palestinian paper linked to the Palestinian Authority - although in general this makes it clear that most hid it on the inside pages without comment.

For my part, I'm waiting for a moderate BeardedBruce voice...

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM

"shouldn't they take responsibility for the creation of a Jewish state on former German territory?"

That dog won't bark. Israel has been and will continue to be a State, right where it is. Since 1948. That good enough for you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:21 PM

PS Likely many of the 'moderates' are afraid to voice their moderation--maybe worried about a bullet in the head. Can't blame 'em for that worry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:34 PM

No they're not, Peace. The moderates spoke up quite clearly. beardedbruce and the people he gets his news from choose to ignore those voices because moderate voices don't help them promote their war agenda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:40 PM

I don't know that BB was putting forth an agenda. However, I don't understand why he'd want to start a thread with old news.

I am also aware that some people/news stations and papers were very courageous in taking a stance against that idiot in Iran. Hope you and yer hubby have a wonderful Christmas, Carol.

PS If you would, please ask yer hubby for me what the herb is that Newfies put in stuffing. I have eaten it, love the taste, and been going nuts for three days trying to remember what it is. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:41 PM

I agree with you that Isreal will stay where it is. But don't you find it at least a little interesting? I mean it would seem like it would be fitting, don't you think? Punishment fit the crime and all that. We wouldn't be having all of this bruhaha for the past half century if a Jewish state were in former German territory.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:42 PM

Would you care to live in a country that was responsible for the slaughter of six million of your people?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:17 PM

Thanks, Peace. And to you as well. I answered your question about the herb in this thread...

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=87486&messages=12


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:22 PM

Not in the country of Germany. But a new country on lands forfeited by the Germans.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 02:24 PM

Savory. THANK YOU.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 05:40 PM

"Bearded Bruce has a point, but, since he knows nothing about Middle Eastern politics, and is unable to formulate or express his own ideas, he cuts, pastes, and rants, hoping that people will understand--which they don't-"


And your evidence of this bigotted opinion?


As for the QUOTE that
"Arab governments and media did not condemn Ahmadinejad's remarks"
THAT was what was on CNN- which I guess I am now responsible for. So, start sending me money, since you think I am CNN.

Again, I see NO criticism of the comment, just of me for mentioning it... Seems like that tells somnething about the people responding here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:28 PM

CNN started the lie, and you passed it on, beardedbruce. Just because you haven't seen or heard the criticisms from moderate Arabs doesn't mean they didn't happen. I saw them right after the Iranian president made his remarks. I have holiday preparations to make right now, so I don't have time to hunt them up for you. But if your views about Arabs aren't prejudiced, you won't have any problem with taking the time to find them yourself, rather than automatically believing the worst.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:11 PM

CarolC,

The statement that the other governments had not commented may be false- I do not know- BUT the statement BEING QUOTED I have seen no indication is other than what was said.

"You are quoting extremists, CarolC. Moderate "Israeli" voices are all around you. If you want to hear them, take your earplugs out (and take your blinders off). "

Be carefull- from now on, this can be MY reply to ANY critism you make of Israeli statements. I was looking for refences to Arab press denunciations of the statement, but have been met with more bigotry than even YOU have claimed is being placed on Moslems.

Gab,
Thank you for the refences.

"DUBAI, United Arab Emirates -- Arab governments appeared reluctant Thursday to condemn Iran's president for calling the Holocaust a "myth" used by Europeans to create a Jewish state in the heart of the Islamic world.

While official Arab reaction in such cases is usually slower than international reaction, any issue involving a defense of Israel is a thorny one for Arab governments, who risk appearing to side with Israel against a Muslim nation.
The comments by President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, broadcast live Wednesday on state-run Iranian television, drew quick condemnation from Israel, the European Union and the United States.

However, in the United Arab Emirates, the top three Arabic-language newspapers buried the remarks deep in their Thursday editions, with no commentary. Newspapers in the country are government-controlled.

In neighboring Saudi Arabia, government-controlled newspapers picked up the statements from international news agencies and ran them on inside pages. They did not comment on them.

Arabic language newspapers circulated widely in the Arab world, such as the London-based Al-Hayat and Asharq Al-Awsat, carried the news on their front pages, but also without editorials."



"CRITICAL STATEMENT

Iran's hardline press largely rallied round the president's first Holocaust remarks but the Islamic Iran Participation Front, Iran's leading reformist party, printed a critical statement in the liberal Sharq daily on Wednesday.

"Provocation...and starting this sort of talk, which benefits neither Iranians nor oppressed Palestinians, will only increase consensus on supporting the (Israeli) regime and will unify the approach against Iran," it said. "

quotes from 2 of the 3 blue stickies- the third did not work.

So, WHERE are all those moderate Arab voices, so I can read their side?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM

Peace,

"However, I don't understand why he'd want to start a thread with old news. "

This was 22 DECEMBER, 2005. If you see an article about Nazis having a rally yesterday, would you call it old news just because they also helkd rallies 70 years ago?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:24 PM

OK, BB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:25 PM

If you are BB. If not, OK anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:32 PM

sorry about that. I am busy working on the TELKOM2 s/c , so that the (Moslem) Indonesians can have control of their own TV channels and not have to go throught other countries satellites. Have to give Al Jezhera a chance to mack it's viewpoint known, you know. So, no cookie...


I really do want to know what the moderates are saying- but have not been able to find all those comments that are supposed to be there. I ask for them, and am critisized for bringing up the topic. Perhaps I will have to act this way when3ever CarolC makes a comment I don't agree with, since she seems to think it is ok...


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Amos
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:16 PM

One of the most overlooked tools of terrorism is the World Wide Web component of the Internet.

Here's some interesting research on terrorist uses of the WWW.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:19 PM

"You are quoting extremists, CarolC. Moderate "Israeli" voices are all around you. If you want to hear them, take your earplugs out (and take your blinders off)."

Your ignorance of my posting history is showing, Guest, 23 Dec 05 - 07:11 PM. I quote moderate Israelis quite frequently. And most of the time, I get criticized for it by people here in the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:20 PM

And in breaking news, an Imam in Iraq is accusing Al Jazeera of being run by the Mossad (or maybe 'tool' of the Mossad). I wish these religious fanatics would go meet their respective makers. (I include all of 'em in that statement, including Robertson.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:52 PM

BTW, feel free to criticize me next time I start a thread like this one if you disagree with it, beardedbruce.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 08:57 PM

OK, Carol.

Happy Holidays


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:17 PM

Here,

here,

here and

here are some of the voices of Muslim moderates. There are many more.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:25 PM

first sticky-

"Copyright © 2003, NO to Political Islam Campaign
Last modified: 09/22/04 12:39 EST www.ntpi.org"

second sticky-

"Updates 01/08/05 : IslamicReform online"

third sticky-

nothing at all about the quote at the top of the thread- but there is this-
"In an article titled "Welcome to the BBC! However...," Tariq Al-Homayed, editor of the London Arabic daily Al-Sharq Al-Awsat, criticized the Arab media, especially the television channels, which, he said, had for years been acting irresponsibly and were "ideology-laden" and "revenge-seeking." Al-Homayed said that a BBC Arabic news channel would be welcome if its administration was not left to Arab media representatives who would run it in accordance with their own ideological orientations. Al-Homayed was referring primarily to Al-Jazeera TV, as well as to Hizbullah's Al-Manar TV and the Saudi Al-Majd channel. "

fourth sticky- "Posted November 12, 2005 " last posting




So, NO comments about the statement at all. But thank you for the sites- I will check back and see what they have to say. I do note that none of them are either Arab media or government, though. CNN statement is thus not yet proven false.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:32 PM

Peace,

" I wish these religious fanatics would go meet their respective makers. (I include all of 'em in that statement, including Robertson.) "



I thought that in Christian theology, only those who get into HEAVEN get to meet God?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: RichM
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:33 PM

Peace, the spice that Newfoundlanders put in stuffing could be savoury- specifically Nfld savoury like that sold by
Mt.Scio Farm
PO Box 306
St. John's NF
Canada A1C5J9


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: RichM
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:43 PM

Here's a site for Mt Scio Farm:

Mt Scio Farm


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:50 PM

dread thrift?


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 09:58 PM

actually, not. Sorry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: John O'L
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:12 PM

Sorry BB, I should have pointed out, I wasn't intending to refute the statement, just supply some examples of Muslim moderate thinking. Here are a couple more.

The Role Of Islamic Groups in the Political Reform Process

Conference on Islamic Reform


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: GUEST,beardedbruce
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM

Thanks, John.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: mg
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 12:41 AM

a. I have seen and heard all sorts of moderate arab voices.


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Subject: RE: BS: Waiting for Moderate Arab Voices...
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 11:22 AM

Here's one...

http://www.islandpacket.com/24hour/world/story/2967011p-11642898c.html

"TEHRAN, Iran (AP) - Saudis fumed Friday that Iran's hard-line president marred a summit dedicated to showing Islam's moderate face by calling for Israel to be moved to Europe, and the chief U.N. nuclear inspector said he was losing patience with the Tehran regime.

Even some of President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's conservative allies in Iran were growing disillusioned, fearing he has hurt the country with his wild rhetoric. Iranian moderates also called on the ruling clerics to reel him in...

...One Saudi official, visibly angry, compared Ahmadinejad to Saddam Hussein and Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi, whose renegade statements frequently infuriated other Arab leaders.

'The Iranian president seems to have lost his direction," said Gilan al-Ghamidi, a prominent commentator in Saudi media. "Iran should be logical if it wants to receive the support of the world. The president didn't score any points. He lost points.'"


I'll keep looking as time allows.


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