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BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians

Rapparee 17 Dec 05 - 10:42 PM
Don Firth 17 Dec 05 - 10:38 PM
Rapparee 17 Dec 05 - 08:23 PM
Deda 17 Dec 05 - 06:23 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 16 Dec 05 - 02:53 PM
Deda 16 Dec 05 - 02:38 PM
JennyO 16 Dec 05 - 09:34 AM
Tootler 15 Dec 05 - 05:17 PM
Don Firth 15 Dec 05 - 01:22 PM
Don Firth 15 Dec 05 - 01:20 PM
open mike 15 Dec 05 - 01:00 PM
Bunnahabhain 15 Dec 05 - 12:29 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 12:23 PM
Midchuck 15 Dec 05 - 12:20 PM
John MacKenzie 15 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM
Peace 15 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Dec 05 - 10:24 AM
GUEST,A 15 Dec 05 - 09:50 AM
frogprince 14 Dec 05 - 08:30 PM
gnu 14 Dec 05 - 08:09 PM
Azizi 14 Dec 05 - 08:02 PM
Azizi 14 Dec 05 - 07:59 PM
Azizi 14 Dec 05 - 07:51 PM
Peace 14 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM
Peace 14 Dec 05 - 07:21 PM
jimmyt 14 Dec 05 - 07:21 PM
jimmyt 14 Dec 05 - 07:17 PM
Bunnahabhain 14 Dec 05 - 07:07 PM
Peace 14 Dec 05 - 06:59 PM
GUEST,A 14 Dec 05 - 06:56 PM
frogprince 14 Dec 05 - 06:47 PM
Peace 14 Dec 05 - 06:24 PM
John MacKenzie 14 Dec 05 - 06:18 PM
pdq 14 Dec 05 - 06:09 PM
SunnySister 14 Dec 05 - 06:05 PM
Rapparee 14 Dec 05 - 05:48 PM
Arne 14 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM
open mike 14 Dec 05 - 05:30 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 10:42 PM

That's pretty much true of all of us, I think, Don. I kinda suspect that it's called "maturity."


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Don Firth
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 10:38 PM

Right on, Deda.

One of the major factors that brought the Roman Empire down was when Constantine embraced Christianity (by then, what Jesus taught had somehow managed to get totally lost in the bickering between the various bishops) and said, "Dogma is what I say it is!" The eventual result was the Dark Ages (The Closing of the Western Mind, by Charles Freeman). Makes one wonder where we're headed now. . . .

I use to be gung-ho about Ayn Rand's writing. Then I saw some of the real world and outgrew it. Makes me wince when I think of some of the stuff I used to believe.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Rapparee
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 08:23 PM

I'm pretty much dead center on most things, including Libertarianism (I took that test long ago). As for Rand -- sorry, I'm no, I'm more of a Utilitarian than a selfish boor -- which she was.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Deda
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 06:23 PM

Maybe I should have said that it can easily be used to justify mean-spirited behavior. It seems to me to lend itself to that. Even Ayn Rand herself, when her own life fell apart, felt that people who rushed to support her with no thought of personal benefit to them were violating her philosophy, and she couldn't understand why they would act that way. (That's based partly on a very good bio-pic of her, I forget thename.)

I also have a pretty sociopathic relative (doesn't everyone?) who just adores Ayn Rand, because he claims to reject such middle-class, bourgois values as family loyalty or generosity. He's a natural taker, and he uses Ayn Rand's philosophy as his lodestar, or he used to anyway. He's been out of touch for many years -- even from his own children.

Her star characters are such pure individualists that they have no sense of being connected to the society, they live separate and isolated from most other people, except for their epic love affairs with each other, and her villains use values like "for the good of the society" to undermine and manipulate, and to sap the strength of her heros. I don't see the world that way at all. When I do volunteer work, or give blood, or donate things to charities, I don't feel sapped or drained or manipulated. She seemed to me to have absolute disdain for the idea of a cooperative model of society.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 02:53 PM

"And I think that the "enlightened self-interest" of Ayn Rand libertarianism is just mean-spirited, selfish egotism"

How is it mean spirited? Would you consider Mills mean spirited too?


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Deda
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 02:38 PM

I score as a liberal, which is fine by me. I think that there are different times in the development of a nation for the various political philosophies. When the USA was a baby nation, I think libertarianism was a necessary and good stage, particularly on the frontier. I guess that there is a form of republicanism that would have been practical and useful during our civil-war-era, industrial revolution -- although as soon as big corporate money, railroads and mines and Rockefellers came into the picture, there was an immediate need for democratic labor strength and protections against the depredations and abuses of Big Greed. But I really think that at this point in history, we have to regard ourselves as a society, not as a bunch of wildcatters. Libertarianism (and I've read the book, "Toward a New Liberty", by Murray Rothbard, the Libertarian handbook, as well as Ayn Rand) want us to be nothing but separate, politically isolated, unfettered individuals. That's great in a New World, or on a new planet -- but this place is crowded, and we don't have that kind of elbow room anymore. If we're going to survive, we have to take care of each other, and the most efficient way to do that is by means of an effective, well-administered government bureaucracy. (Ancient Rome had one, and that's how the empire survived and kept on running for centuries no matter how whacked-out the emperor was.) And modern Republicanism doesn't stand for a damn thing as far as I can tell, except radical religious self-righteousness, massive government corruption, irrational wars, international arrogance and imperialism, and empowerment of the worst aspects of corporate greed. I fell for the romance and appeal of Libertarianism when I was a kid, in my 20s, but I think that we have to outgrow it, both personally and politically. And I think that the "enlightened self-interest" of Ayn Rand libertarianism is just mean-spirited, selfish egotism.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: JennyO
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 09:34 AM

Don, I got exactly the same score as you. It may be a short quiz, but it has me pegged.

I'm also a Libra, so does that make me a Liberalibra?


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Tootler
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 05:17 PM

I'm sitting on the fence. I fell exactly on the border between liberal and libertarian.

BTW, I would love to see our government take the quiz. I wonder how Tony Blair would score - Big Government?


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:22 PM

By the way, does that mean I'm a Democrat? Not necessarily. I don't know where in the hell the Democratic Party would place on this test. I wish they'd try to figure out what they believe. Pathetic!!

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Don Firth
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:20 PM

Liberal. Personal issues, 90: economic issues, 30. Azizi posted the interpretation blurb above.

Some ignorant folks tend to use the word "liberal" as a swear word, but considering what it means both philosophically and politically, I'm perfectly happy with being a liberal.

The quiz is short, concise, appears to be pretty accurate.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: open mike
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:00 PM

LIBERTARIANS support maximum liberty in both personal and

economic matters. They advocate a much smaller government; one

that is limited to protecting individuals from coercion and violence.

Libertarians tend to embrace individual responsibility, oppose

government bureaucracy and taxes, promote private charity, tolerate

diverse lifestyles, support the free market, and defend civil liberties.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:29 PM

If you don't like the results Midchuck, then argue with the test. Or does that turn you into a laywer, which could be worse than the problem...


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:23 PM

Define flagellate.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Midchuck
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:20 PM

I thought of myself as a somewhat wishy-washy libertarian. The test says I'm a liberal. I have always had considerable scorn for liberals. Does this mean I should go off in a corner and flagellate myself?

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM

95% Libertarian me! 5% leftward leaning.
G.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Peace
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 10:33 AM

Conan the Barbarian?


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 10:24 AM

Librabartarian?


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: GUEST,A
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 09:50 AM

And a good and safe Christmas to you also, Peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:30 PM

LOL, Azizi; I was thinkin' of Charlie Brown in Peanuts; I never even managed to pose as cool, let alone actually be cool, in school. I did get the "pickin' on" part some, but that was for a jumble of reasons: being a top scholar and a total non-athlete, serious social ineptitude and a hesitant speech pattern, unstylish clothing...


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: gnu
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:09 PM

Most. Next question please.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:02 PM

Note that I said "neither one of these were a Libra."

I learned my grammatical lesson, thanks to Mudcatters.

And I heard her holla as she ran out of sight.
"Best wishes to all and to all a good night!"

;o}


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:59 PM

frogprince, you wrote:

No wonder I sometimes feel like Charlie Brown, when he was asked "Is there anywhere where you feel out of place", and he said "Yes; earth."
-snip-

Is this Charlie Brown who hangs out with Snoopy. Linus, and Lucy or this one:

Fe-fe, fi-fi, fo-fo, fum
I smell smoke in the auditorium

Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown
He's a clown, that Charlie Brown
He's gonna get caught
Just you wait and see
(Why's everybody always pickin' on me)

That's him on his knees
I know that's him
Yeah, from 7 come 11
Down in the boys' gym

Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown
He's a clown, that Charlie Brown
He's gonna get caught
Just you wait and see
(Why's everybody always pickin' on me)

Who's always writing on the wall
Who's always goofing in the hall
Who's always throwing spit balls
Guess who (who, me) yeah, you

Who walks in the classroom, cool and slow
Who calls the English teacher, Daddy-O

Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown
He's a clown, that Charlie Brown
He's gonna get caught
Just you wait and see
(Why's everybody always pickin' on me)

[Instrumental Interlude]

Who walks in the classroom, cool and slow
Who calls the English teacher, Daddy-O

Charlie Brown, Charlie Brown
He's a clown, that Charlie Brown
He's gonna get caught
Just you wait and see
(Why's everybody always pickin' on me)

Source: http://www.oldielyrics.com/lyrics/the_coasters/charlie_brown.html

-snip-

I wonder what political label would fit either of these [or other]fictitious characters...

As to being between a Virgo and a Scorpio, I'd bet neither one of these were a Libra. At least the Coasters' Charlie Brown sounds more like a Sagittarius or an Aquarian to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:51 PM

I took the quiz and I scored LIBERAL

"LIBERALS usually embrace freedom of choice in personal
matters, but tend to support significant government control of the
economy. They generally support a government-funded "safety net"
to help the disadvantaged, and advocate strict regulation
of business. Liberals tend to favor environmental regulations,
defend civil liberties and free expression, support government action
to promote equality, and tolerate diverse lifestyles."

-snip-

Yep, that's me.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:22 PM

Crap. Good thing you didn't get a bet down.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:21 PM

Ten to one it comes up liberal, jimmy.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: jimmyt
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:21 PM

Libertarian with slight right leanings   95% Libertarian


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: jimmyt
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:17 PM

I would classify myself as a libertarian. Now off to take the quiz.....


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:07 PM

Well, the test agreed with me that I am a Libertarian.

Given the very long list of things Goverments isn't very good at, we should try and get it to do less of them. It worries me how far out of step this is with so much of the population.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:59 PM

LOL

Yeah. No kidding. Hope you have a good and safe Christmas, A. I mean that.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: GUEST,A
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:56 PM

Peace, I could have told you that and saved you the time in taking the test.
Probably the same as you could have done for me. I did score Libertarian with maybe a 20% lean to the right.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:47 PM

If the test has any validity, about 90% of the voting population is to the "right" of me. No wonder I sometimes feel like Charlie Brown, when he was asked "Is there anywhere where you feel out of place", and he said "Yes; earth."


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:24 PM

I took the quiz. I am to the left--what is described as a liberal.


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:18 PM

I'm somewhere between a Virgo and a Scorpio. I don't know the Dewey Decimal code for that though!
G..


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: pdq
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:09 PM

...let's find out...


                            World's Smallest Political Quiz


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: SunnySister
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:05 PM

Yeah, what Rapaire said.... Like him, um, what was that again???

More coffee is needed.

--SunnySister (I think)


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Rapparee
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:48 PM

I'm a barbarian libertarian librarian. Or maybe a librarian libertine barbarian. Something....


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Subject: RE: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: Arne
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM

Beat you to it. Look at my post on the "Librarian" thread....


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Subject: BS: How Many Mudcat Members are Libertarians
From: open mike
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 05:30 PM

inquiring minds want to know....


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