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BS: Riots in Australia

GUEST,Riots in Australia 13 Dec 05 - 12:24 PM
Rapparee 13 Dec 05 - 02:48 PM
Little Hawk 13 Dec 05 - 03:02 PM
Wolfgang 13 Dec 05 - 03:08 PM
Rapparee 13 Dec 05 - 03:22 PM
GUEST,heric 13 Dec 05 - 04:03 PM
kendall 13 Dec 05 - 04:16 PM
CarolC 13 Dec 05 - 04:24 PM
CarolC 13 Dec 05 - 04:29 PM
GUEST 13 Dec 05 - 04:30 PM
GUEST,heric 13 Dec 05 - 04:39 PM
CarolC 13 Dec 05 - 05:08 PM
John O'L 13 Dec 05 - 05:09 PM
CarolC 13 Dec 05 - 05:19 PM
freda underhill 13 Dec 05 - 06:31 PM
freda underhill 13 Dec 05 - 06:35 PM
freda underhill 13 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM
robomatic 13 Dec 05 - 06:53 PM
freda underhill 13 Dec 05 - 06:58 PM
Peace 13 Dec 05 - 07:12 PM
CarolC 13 Dec 05 - 07:45 PM
freda underhill 13 Dec 05 - 08:45 PM
freda underhill 13 Dec 05 - 08:52 PM
The Fooles Troupe 13 Dec 05 - 08:57 PM
GUEST,Jack Halyard 13 Dec 05 - 09:19 PM
robomatic 13 Dec 05 - 09:24 PM
freda underhill 13 Dec 05 - 09:29 PM
The Fooles Troupe 13 Dec 05 - 09:38 PM
John O'L 13 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM
The Fooles Troupe 13 Dec 05 - 09:48 PM
The Fooles Troupe 13 Dec 05 - 10:04 PM
alison 13 Dec 05 - 11:03 PM
Bill D 13 Dec 05 - 11:27 PM
hilda fish 14 Dec 05 - 03:17 AM
GUEST 14 Dec 05 - 03:48 AM
Terry K 14 Dec 05 - 06:17 AM
GUEST 14 Dec 05 - 06:25 AM
GUEST 14 Dec 05 - 07:27 AM
GUEST,Riots in Australia 14 Dec 05 - 07:29 AM
Sandra in Sydney 14 Dec 05 - 07:39 AM
Piers 14 Dec 05 - 08:16 AM
GUEST,Riots in Australia 14 Dec 05 - 08:32 AM
The Fooles Troupe 14 Dec 05 - 09:00 AM
Peace 14 Dec 05 - 10:12 AM
GUEST 14 Dec 05 - 10:38 AM
zelger 14 Dec 05 - 10:42 AM
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Wolfgang 14 Dec 05 - 11:50 AM
zelger 14 Dec 05 - 12:05 PM
GUEST 14 Dec 05 - 12:15 PM
zelger 14 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM
CarolC 14 Dec 05 - 12:23 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 14 Dec 05 - 12:29 PM
zelger 14 Dec 05 - 12:31 PM
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Piers 14 Dec 05 - 12:46 PM
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zelger 14 Dec 05 - 01:50 PM
GUEST,John Hernandez 14 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM
Peace 14 Dec 05 - 06:28 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 09:35 AM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Dec 05 - 10:22 AM
CarolC 15 Dec 05 - 11:08 AM
GUEST,Ribble 15 Dec 05 - 11:16 AM
Terry K 15 Dec 05 - 11:26 AM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 11:34 AM
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GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 11:47 AM
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GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 11:49 AM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM
CarolC 15 Dec 05 - 12:25 PM
GUEST,On looker 15 Dec 05 - 12:30 PM
zelger 15 Dec 05 - 12:34 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 12:39 PM
CarolC 15 Dec 05 - 12:39 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 12:43 PM
zelger 15 Dec 05 - 12:48 PM
zelger 15 Dec 05 - 12:50 PM
zelger 15 Dec 05 - 12:51 PM
CarolC 15 Dec 05 - 12:59 PM
zelger 15 Dec 05 - 01:02 PM
CarolC 15 Dec 05 - 01:08 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 01:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 05 - 01:26 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Dec 05 - 01:44 PM
CarolC 15 Dec 05 - 01:51 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Dec 05 - 01:56 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 01:59 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 02:01 PM
Azizi 15 Dec 05 - 02:05 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 02:09 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Dec 05 - 02:12 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,rarelamb 15 Dec 05 - 02:14 PM
GUEST 15 Dec 05 - 02:20 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM
GUEST 16 Dec 05 - 04:53 AM
GUEST 16 Dec 05 - 06:56 PM
GUEST,tam the man 16 Dec 05 - 07:50 PM
GUEST,riots in australia 17 Dec 05 - 11:41 AM
freda underhill 17 Dec 05 - 05:27 PM
Donuel 17 Dec 05 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,Nosmo King 17 Dec 05 - 10:57 PM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Dec 05 - 09:11 AM
John O'L 18 Dec 05 - 06:30 PM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Dec 05 - 07:13 PM
John O'L 18 Dec 05 - 08:47 PM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Dec 05 - 08:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Dec 05 - 09:00 PM
John O'L 18 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM
The Fooles Troupe 18 Dec 05 - 11:45 PM
freda underhill 19 Dec 05 - 08:04 AM
John O'L 19 Dec 05 - 07:58 PM
Peace 19 Dec 05 - 08:08 PM
The Fooles Troupe 19 Dec 05 - 08:22 PM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Dec 05 - 05:52 AM
The Fooles Troupe 20 Dec 05 - 06:10 AM
GUEST,Patricia Chriss 20 Dec 05 - 11:56 PM
The Fooles Troupe 21 Dec 05 - 02:41 AM
John O'L 21 Dec 05 - 04:05 AM
polaitaly 21 Dec 05 - 06:36 AM
GUEST 21 Dec 05 - 11:09 AM
John O'L 22 Dec 05 - 04:31 AM
GUEST,MG 22 Dec 05 - 01:25 PM
GUEST 22 Dec 05 - 03:49 PM
John O'L 22 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM
CarolC 22 Dec 05 - 05:55 PM
Terry K 23 Dec 05 - 06:28 AM
freda underhill 23 Dec 05 - 07:09 AM
CarolC 23 Dec 05 - 10:29 AM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 12:41 PM
TheBigPinkLad 23 Dec 05 - 01:19 PM
freda underhill 23 Dec 05 - 01:23 PM
dianavan 23 Dec 05 - 01:31 PM
Peace 23 Dec 05 - 04:25 PM
Terry K 24 Dec 05 - 04:00 AM
Peace 24 Dec 05 - 12:22 PM
CarolC 24 Dec 05 - 12:33 PM
Peace 24 Dec 05 - 12:51 PM
Azizi 24 Dec 05 - 02:06 PM
Peace 24 Dec 05 - 02:14 PM
dianavan 24 Dec 05 - 02:16 PM
Azizi 24 Dec 05 - 02:22 PM
Terry K 26 Dec 05 - 12:41 PM
CarolC 26 Dec 05 - 02:05 PM
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Subject: BS: MGSHK
From: GUEST,Riots in Australia
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 12:24 PM

I blame poor conditions & social discrimination for the riots.

The rioters obviously feel that this is the only way to make themselves heard. it is sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 02:48 PM

And the cops. And the army. And Blair. And Bush. And all those kangaroos. And the HUGE number of billabongs running around loose. Corral them billabongs and you'll stop the riots. No, wait...IT'S ALL REAGAN'S FAULT!!!!

(Try not to troll too hard, GUEST....)


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 03:02 PM

Reagan for sure. That guy cast a long shadow.

We should send William Shatner in to restore order ASAP.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 03:08 PM

But it was a nice jibe at the quick one-variable explanations in the Paris riots thread, wasn't it?
BTW, the second post in the Paris riots thread also was a troll alert post (though by far not as fine as Rapaire's).
And now we could start a more serious discussion. I'd appreciate for instance a link to an article with some more analysis. What I have read so far are just the facts as good (or bad) as one can get them in a short newspaper article.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Rapparee
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 03:22 PM

I'm actually surprised that this hasn't come up sooner. I've seen little other than official statements or newspaper reports.

Reuters has carried an article, but I can't make a link work. However, here's an article from the International Herald Tribune which is a combination of three sources.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:03 PM

I've been absorbed by this one, but didn't know if the Aussies on list felt like talking. The interesting thing I saw was the photos on flickr of the skinhead riots of five thousand drunken caucasian men.

Check it out at flickr. Search tag Cronulla .


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: kendall
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:16 PM

A collective IQ of room temperature.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:24 PM

I saw this article yesterday...

"By MIKE CORDER, Associated Press Writer Mon Dec 12, 4:30 AM ET

SYDNEY, Australia - In one of Australia's worst outbursts of racial violence, thousands of drunken white youths attacked police and people they believed were of Arab descent at a Sydney beach, angered by reports that Lebanese youths had assaulted two lifeguards.

Young men of Arab descent retaliated in several Sydney suburbs, fighting with police and smashing 40 cars with sticks and bats, police said. Thirty-one people were injured and 16 were arrested in hours of violence Sunday."

More here...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20051212/ap_on_re_au_an/australia_racial_unrest_5


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:29 PM

Here's the pictures in Flickr...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/tags/cronulla/


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:30 PM

An army of drunk white guys rioting and attacking racial minorities. That's about the scariest thing for race relations we've heard since the Paris riots, to be sure.

But I'm sure it has nothing to do with race.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 04:39 PM

I didn't want to be adding fuel to this one, actually. I just refrained from commenting on the pictures. Check them out. Not all men, don't appear all drunk, didn't notice the skinheads. . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:08 PM

Why should we tiptoe around this one, heric? People in the Mudcat certainly don't feel inclined to tiptoe around in order to spare the feelings of people of Middle Eastern origin.

The article in the International Herald Tribune seems to be trying to diminish the culpability of the people who actually started the riots (the thousands of White skinheads at the beach), and are focusing mostly on the men who "appeared to be of Middle Eastern origin".

This is how the riots got started...

"...tensions between youngsters of Arabic descent and white Australians have been rising in recent years, largely because of anti-Muslim sentiment fueled by the Sept. 11, 2001 terror attacks in the United States and deadly bombings on the Indonesian island of Bali that killed 88 Australians in October 2002.

About 300,000 Muslims live in Australia, the majority in large cities.

"Arab Australians have had to cope with vilification, racism, abuse and fear of a racial backlash for a number of years, but these riots will take that fear to a new level," said Roland Jabbour, chairman of the Australian Arabic Council.

The riots apparently began after rumors circulated that youths of Lebanese descent were responsible for an attack last weekend on two lifeguards at Cronulla Beach. Police said the assault was not believed to be racially motivated.

Police had increased the number of officers patrolling the beach in the Sydney suburb on Sunday after cell phone text messages urged people to gather there to retaliate for the attack.

Police said more than 5,000 white youths, some wrapped in Australian flags and chanting racist slurs, fought with police, attacked people they believed to be of Arab descent and assaulted a pair of paramedics trying to help people escape the riot.

Police fought back with batons and pepper spray.

Many of the youths had been drinking heavily, police said.

One white teenager had the words "We grew here, you flew here" painted on his back. Someone had written "100 percent Aussie pride" in the sand. TV broadcasts showed a group of young women attacking another woman, whose ethnicity was not clear."


This is exactly the kind of thing I have been talking about for a long time now in the Mudcat. If people keep pounding on an entire group of people for the actions of only a small number of members of that group, they create a climate in which hatred is directed towards all members of that group. This is precisely why we need to be very careful to not paint whole groups of people with a broad brush, and to not hold whole groups of people responsible for the actions of only a small number of members of the group, and to not focus only on the wrongs committed by some members of a group while ignoring all of the good things done by the majority of the members of the group.

Muslims and people of Middle Eastern background have become the new scapegoats. These attacks against them by Australians of European background are just a small but very potent demonstration of a far larger and much more widespread trend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:09 PM

It's fear. The Howard govenment has created an culture of fear. It's exactly what happened in Rwanda. People of middle eastern descent are afraid of being arrested and held under Howard's new anti-terror laws, and people of European descent are afraid of being blown up.
They both want someone to blame so they blame each other. I blame Howard, Downer, Costello and Ruddock. Oh, and Bush too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 05:19 PM

The same kind of thing is happening here in the US, John O'Lennaine. The main difference is that when people here want to take out their fear and frustrations on people of Middle Eastern origin, they go to the Middle East and drop bombs on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:31 PM

Cronulla beach has been the scene of rumbles over the decades, with the same theme of "westies" coming in to havy the surfies. In the past it was bodgies vs surfies, rockers vs surfies, this time it's "Lebs" vs surfies, bringing ethnicity into the mix.

The racist divide has developed over the last ten years. this link gives a history of how the current government has whipped up fear of asylum seekers rising racism led by government attitudes

These government attitudes have inserted their way into Australian life as a general distrust of people from "middle eastern background". The last election was won by a government proclaiming "we decide who comes into this country, and the manner in which they come".

The recent violence at Cronulla was triggered by an assault by some young men of Lebanese background on surf lifesavers, after proclaiming
"GET off our beach. This is our beach. We own it."

Fight for Cronulla; December 06, 2005

"GET off our beach. This is our beach. We own it."
These are the fighting words a group of thugs spoke to three North Cronulla surf lifesavers before bashing them on a sunny Sunday afternoon. The attack has disgusted Sutherland Shire residents and surf lifesavers who volunteer their time to protect the lives of beachgoers. Cronulla locals say in the past three years a large influx of youths have travelled from Sydney's west to the beachside to intimidate beachgoers and start fights. During the October long weekend, police were called to North Cronulla three times over several hours to defuse a large-scale stand-off between and visiting gangs and locals.

Surf Lifesaving Sydney rescue services manager Stephen Leahy said it was common for Middle Eastern men from western Sydney to taunt Cronulla surf lifesavers by stealing their equipment, making idle threats and kicking balls at them. Some regular Cronulla beachgoers said that the behaviour of Middle Eastern groups was so offensive, they opted to travel to other beaches instead. Clare Mooney and Kristie Keith, both 21, of Campbelltown said they had been visiting Cronulla for years but were now planning to travel to Wollongong for a peaceful beach outing. After spending yesterday at Cronulla, they said they were sick of being covered with sand while almost being hit by youths playing football over their heads.

"We said we'll go back to Wollongong next week so we don't have to put up with these yobbos," Ms Mooney said. The latest incident occurred at 3pm on Sunday when three lifesavers, aged 15, 19 and 20, were walking from the beach to the surf club at the end of their shift. They were approached by four men of Middle Eastern appearance, aged in their late teens or early 20s, who initiated a verbal confrontation. One of the men king-hit the 19-year-old, who fell back and struck a metal picket fence, sustaining a cut and being knocked unconscious. Eight to 10 other men then joined the original four.

Some of these men tried to stop the fight but others continued bashing the lifeguards. The 20-year-old suffered facial bruising and a damaged jaw and the 15-year-old suffered bruising to the face.
Police yesterday pledged extra beach patrols of Cronulla.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:35 PM

this is what the head of the Community Relations Commission said

Nothing but a bunch of thugs; CRC Media Release; 8 December 2005
http://www.crc.nsw.gov.au/press/2005/beach_thugs.htm

The young men who are reported to be terrorising beach-goers at North Cronulla are nothing but a bunch of thugs who do what thugs normally do, according to the Chair of the Community Relations Commission For a multicultural NSW."It is sad that these thugs appear to be more or less of the same ethnic background, or are perceived to be, because that is only causing pain to the hundreds of thousands of people of that background who live and work peacefully in our state."
"I know that they condemn this behaviour as forcefully as the rest of us do."

"What we all have to do is to calm down, get behind the police and support them in any way we can to deal with these offenders as the criminals that they are." "The last thing we need is for people to form groups of vigilantes or to jump into the trenches and raise opposing ethnic flags." "Let the police do their work while the rest of us enjoy a safe day at the beach," Mr Kerkyasharian said.

this is how local papers responded:

Gangs turn Cronulla beach into war zone; By Luke McIllveen and Gemma Jones; 07dec05

NICOLLE Dunk has been swimming at Cronulla since she was a toddler, but now the 17-year-old refuses to go to her favourite beach alone. She has been harassed and assaulted by thugs who come to The Shire to threaten and intimidate. "They kick sand into your face and scream the most disgusting abuse for no reason at all. A lot of locals are too scared to surf down here any more," she told The Daily Telegraph yesterday. As police played down a culture of gang violence at one of Sydney's best known beaches in the wake of the bashing of three North Cronulla lifesavers last Sunday, locals told a different story.
Ms Dunk, along with friends Leiden Kronemberger and Dean Apostolidis, both 16, said yesterday the gangs had disappeared after the bashing but would return when publicity died down. "They come from Hurtsville and places like that and they always come in numbers. They don't mind having a go if they can hide behind their friends," Dean said. Another Cronulla local told how little girls taking part in swimming lessons at the beach were warned to keep their sun protection shirts on as they left the water after thugs called them "little tarts". Others described the abuse of a pregnant woman because she was taking up room on a stair way to the beach as one of the most shocking recent incidents at the beach.

The father of a 16-year-old girl said she had been too afraid to return to the beach after she and two friends were asked if they were virgins by a group of men. When she failed to respond the gang told her she would be carried off the beach and it was only when she spotted a friend nearby that the two girls were able to escape. Locals said the behaviour of aggressive groups had become progressively worse in recent years. "I am not racist against their ethnicity, I am reacting to their behaviour," one surf life saving source said.
"There are a lot of people who go to the beach just to have fun and do the right thing." It can also be confirmed that Sunday's brutal attack was not the first, with a council lifeguard chased by a machete-wielding man two years ago. Police yesterday stepped up their hunt for a group of men responsible for Sunday's bashing and Superintendent Robert Redfern and Police Minister Carl Scully said patrols of the beach would be stepped up. Officers are examining several photos taken on camera phones by onlookers shortly after the melee occurred. Police have also located a key witness, named Michael, who has detailed information about the assaults.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:43 PM

This is how Alan Jones, a right wing radio commentator, whipped it up the week before the riots:

from The Age

Alan Jones: I'm the person that's led this charge; By David Marr, Sydney; December 13, 2005

BY THURSDAY last week Alan Jones was screaming like a race caller whose horse was coming home. "I'm the person that's led this charge here. Nobody wanted to know about North Cronulla, now it's gathered to this." The riot was still three days away and Sydney's highest-rating
breakfast radio host had a heap of anonymous emails to whip his 2GB listeners along.

"Alan, it's not just a few Middle Eastern bastards at the
weekend, it's thousands. Cronulla is a very long beach and it's been taken over by this scum. It's not a few causing trouble. It's all of them." Sunday's trouble did not come out of the blue. It was brewing all week on talkback radio — particularly on 2GB. Radio doesn't get much grimmer than Alan Jones' efforts in the days before the Cronulla riot. He was dead keen for a demo at the beach — "a rally, a street march, call it what you will. A community show of force." He assured his huge audience he "understood" why that famous text message went out and he read it right through again on air. "Come to Cronulla this weekend to take revenge. This Sunday every Aussie in the Shire
get down to North Cronulla to support the Leb and wog bashing day …"

Daily he cautioned his listeners not to take the law into their own
hands, but he warmed to listeners who had exactly that on their minds.
Last Thursday Charlie rang to suggest all junior footballers in the
Shire gather on the beach to support the lifesavers. "Good stuff, good
stuff," said Jones. "I tell you who we want to encourage, Charlie, all the Pacific Island people because, you want to know something, they don't take any nonsense. They are proud to be here — all those Samoans and Fijians. They love being here. And they say, 'Uh huh, uh huh. You step out of line, look out.' And, of course, cowards always run, don't they?"

When John called on Tuesday to bluntly recommend vigilante action — "If the police can't do the job, the next tier is us" — Jones did not
dissent. "Yeh. Good on you, John." And when he then offered a maxim his father had picked up during the war — "Shoot one, the rest will run" — the broadcaster roared with laughter. "No, you don't play Queensberry's rules. Good on you, John."

It was horrible stuff, larded with self-congratulation. And pity poor
Berta — "not of a Middle Eastern family" — who tried to argue there were two sides to this story. When she reported hearing "really derogatory remarks" aimed at Middle Eastern people on Cronulla beach, Jones cut her off: "Let's not get too carried away, Berta. We don't have Anglo-Saxon kids out there raping women in western Sydney."
Yesterday, 2GB broadcasters claimed two-thirds of calls coming into the station supported "what happened" at Cronulla on Sunday. But Alan Jones is not around to deal with the aftermath. He's having a well-earned holiday.

TALKBACK RADIO
CALLER TO 2UE, SYDNEY
MOIR: Look, you know, I feel like everybody else. I'm really upset
about this whole thing. I grew up in Cronulla. I'm a Cronulla girl, and I reverted to Islam four years ago, and I get so upset to hear people talking about these thugs, these Lebanese thugs, in terms of Islam.
CALLER TO 2GB, SYDNEY
MARK: It's not about keeping Australia white, it's about keeping
Australia right — having the right people, the right culture and the right
feeling. What we've got here now is totally away from where we want to
be.
CALLER TO 3AW
DOROTHY: I'd class those ones who took part in that yesterday, they're
not fit to be called Aussies — dirty, filthy, drunken little scumbags.

-- end of article--

It's taken rival bikie gangs in the area to lead the way with messages condemning the racist riots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:53 PM

CarolC wrote:

This is exactly the kind of thing I have been talking about for a long time now in the Mudcat. If people keep pounding on an entire group of people for the actions of only a small number of members of that group, they create a climate in which hatred is directed towards all members of that group. This is precisely why we need to be very careful to not paint whole groups of people with a broad brush, and to not hold whole groups of people responsible for the actions of only a small number of members of the group, and to not focus only on the wrongs committed by some members of a group while ignoring all of the good things done by the majority of the members of the group.

Amen

Muslims and people of Middle Eastern background have become the new scapegoats. These attacks against them by Australians of European background are just a small but very potent demonstration of a far larger and much more widespread trend.

I don't think this is the case with the majority of Americans (I can't speak for Australians). There is plenty of scapegoating to go around on a whole bunch of groups (some of it on Mudcat), and Arabs and Muslims themselves are not shy in this arena. The Arab world and the Muslim world are going through major changes, and the world as a whole will be influenced by those changes. A great deal of the interaction is Arab on Arab, Muslim on Muslim. Making it a case of ethnic stereotyping and easy blaming is to triviallize an incredibly portentous undertaking. We all have a stake in what is going on, whether or not we agree on what is going on, and I'm sure we don't.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 06:58 PM

There is an email circulation from a group called sydneywomen4peace encouraging a protect for peace next Saturday on the beach - to make a statement for community harmony and peace, by bringing flowers for peace - to walk to the beach and create a peace sign on the sand.

The last time we had race riots in Australia was The Lambing Flat riots in 1860-1861. These were a series of violent anti-Chinese demonstrations that took place in the Burrangong region, on the goldfields at Spring Creek, Stoney Creek, Back Creek, Wombat, Blackguard Gully, Tipperary Gully, and especially Lambing Flat (now Young), N.S.W., in 1860-1861. When gold was discovered in the area in mid-1860 large numbers of diggers flocked to the field.

Delays in officially proclaiming the goldfield encouraged lawlessness (once a goldfield was "proclaimed" the government would then set up administrative and police personnel in that area, but until then there would be little or no "law and order"). On Tuesday 13 November 1860 a "roll-up" of diggers drove about 500 Chinese off the diggings, destroying their tents. On 27 November the area was proclaimed, but the inexperienced commissioner appointed was powerless to maintain order. Therefore, due to the lack of adequate police protection on the goldfields, the miners set up a vigilante committee and took the law into their own hands by destroying a number of sly-grog shanties (which were known resorts of thieves) on the weekend of the 8th and 9th of December. On the Sunday a force of diggers then drove about 50 Chinese from the diggings.

....

this is the same thing, vigilantes on both sides, wreaking havoc.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Peace
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:12 PM

Thugs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 07:45 PM

Is "Middle Eastern" appearance enough to determine what someone's ethnic background is in Australia? With all of those kinds of references to people of "Middle Eastern appearance" it seems to me that anyone with dark skin and hair could commit any sort of crime and it would be blamed on people with Middle Eastern backgrounds.

Are there any other ethnic groups besides Middle Easterners who commit vandalism and thuggery in Australia? Any gangs of young men who are not from Middle Eastern backgrounds who intimidate or harass people in any parts of Australia? If the answer is yes, do all of the other Australians of the same background get blamed for the acts of those individuals? Do thousands of Australians of other ethnic backgrounds start randomly attacking members of the offender's ethnic group simply because they belong to that ethnic group?

I think the answers to these questions can tell us whether or not people of Middle Eastern backgrounds are being scapegoated in Australia.

Here in the US, there were many attacks on Muslims and people of Middle Eastern backgrounds after 9/11, and even on people who weren't Muslims, but who looked like they could be Muslims.

But any time a government uses fear of a particular group of people as a political tool or to serve a political agenda, that group is being scapegoated. It happens all the time here in the US, and apparently in Australia as well.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:45 PM

There is documented rise in discrimination against Australian Muslims since Sep 11. While these riots specifically involved the Lebanese community, many people who look "Middle Eastern" (eg Sikhs and Hindus) have also been targets since Sep/11.

Mundine weighs into race debate

Australia's leaders are cowards who will not confront the disease of racism, boxer Anthony Mundine says. Mundine, who is a Muslim and Aboriginal, said today that Prime Minister John Howard was wrong if he did not accept there was underlying racism in Australia. Following two days of violence around Sydney, Mr Howard said yesterday he believed the riots and vandalism were more of a law and order issue. Mundine said: "I believe we have problems within society and racism is one of them problems, it's a bad disease. "I believe we've got leaders that are cowards. "They are in denial and will not confront the issues and confront the problems that we have with society and to make comments like the leader (Mr Howard) has said, it's really got me dumbfounded."

Mundine told the Nine Network it was up to "great leaders" in the community to stay positive and do positive things. The cultural and religious divides between different communities in Australia were not too vast to overcome. "I think people shouldn't be condemned because of their colour or creed, they should be judged on their deeds and their positive ways to their fellow man, their actions," Mundine said.

"We can live together, we can work together but it's a matter of letting your actions speak louder than your words." Mundine blamed racism for the hostile reaction of a crowd after he left the boxing ring in Perth on Sunday. Mundine was booed and had bottles thrown at him after fellow boxer Danny Green worked up a home crowd. But Mundine said the reaction was caused by a few "bad apples" in the crowd and common Australian people were "great people".

...
Police investigate church attacks

Sydney police say they are not ruling out a link between attacks on two churches in suburban Auburn overnight. Investigators believe arsonists may be responsible for a fire that has destroyed a multi-faith hall on the grounds of the Uniting Church on Harrow Road just before 2am AEDT. Just minutes later, the nearby Anglican Church had about 10 of its windows smashed. Bishop Ivan Lee says it is not the first time his church has been attacked "I think a year or so ago and the police were called in but they didn't so a very good job - they couldn't get the fire going," he said.

"Someone broke inside and tried to set the place alight - that was worse than what's happened this morning I suppose." On Monday night, shots were fired at cars outside Auburn's St Joseph's Primary School, which was hosting a Christmas carol event.

...

Community meetings

A number of community meetings were held in Sydney overnight in an effort to try to stop the violence. There were at least three separate gatherings involving Muslim and Christian groups, police and members of the southern beaches surfing community. Islamic Friendship Association spokesman Keysar Trad says community groups have mobilised to help resolve the problem. "Everybody's trying to get together, especially the calmer, more mature heads within the different groups to see what can be done to end this cycle of violence," he said.

"What we've seen over the preceding few days is something that none of us wants to see repeated and we opted to think about how to resolve it together." But there is concern the Cronulla violence could be replicated at other beaches. In the Hunter region, police say text messages are currently circulating, encouraging people to rally at Newcastle's Nobby's Beach and at Terrigal Beach on Sunday. Northern region police commander Peter Parsons says police are developing strategies to deal with any unrest. "We've got to be concerned of course because of what's happening in Sydney," he said.

"We certainly don't want a repeat of what's happening there. But at the same time we need to keep things in perspective and we will deal with this in a considered and determined - if required, way."


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:52 PM

and more praise for the Bra Boys

RETALIATION: Rampage of hate; By STEVE GEE, December 13, 2005

TERRIFIED residents told yesterday how they were bashed, threatened with firearms and forced to cower inside their homes after up to 100 youths of Middle Eastern descent rampaged through Maroubra in apparent retaliation for the Cronulla race riots. As locals counted the cost, more than 60 damaged cars lined two of Maroubra's main streets yesterday. Residents told how they watched in horror - many cowering inside with their children - as youths descended on Maroubra and Malabar Rds, targeting virtually every car in the street.

One man, Steve, said he was threatened with a handgun and chased inside his home when he went to investigate the commotion. "I was at the gate and this big guy came rushing towards me," he said.
"I slammed the gate and ... another guy at the car pointed a gun at me and said, 'get back inside'. I ran inside and they chased us up the steps. It was terrifying." Another resident, Niki Barr, 42, said she was knocked to the ground after being smashed in the head by a thug with a baseball bat. "He just smashed me and kept running," Ms Barr said. "As he ran off he said, 'this is our country too' and he was gone."

Residents said the gang appeared to be well organised with some members smashing cars while others followed closely in getaway vehicles. Weapons including a set of nun-chukkas, steel poles and tree stakes were left behind after the rampage. New parents Tallis and Oriana, who did not want to reveal their surnames, said they watched in shock as four men attacked their Nissan Pulsar with a baseball bat, planks of wood and a knife. "It was really scary because we didn't know what was going to happen, whether they would try and attack the house," Oriana said. Tallis said: "I'm just surprised no one died, with the knives they had.

"There was one guy slashing tyres, another jumping on the bonnet and others smashing windows." Trouble flared about 9pm when the gang descended on Malabar Rd and went on a rampage towards Maroubra beach.
Residents claimed police were ill-prepared for the violence, with many saying it was only stopped when the gang was chased away by the 'Bra Boys surf gang. Lyne Sickle, whose Ford Festiva was vandalised, said she watched a police car enter the street and then turn away as a large mob of hooligans congregated. "I don't know why they (police) didn't do anything," she said. Randwick councillor Murray Matson [Greens] said only four police cars initially responded to calls for help.

"They were outnumbered and from what I understand, it was the 'Bra Boys who saved the police from attack," he said. "Although I am not a fan of the 'Bra Boys, I think their protection of the police was praiseworthy in this incident." Trouble also flared in Brighton-le-Sands, where youths threw missiles at police on Sunday night. Insurance experts last night said companies should treat the attack on the cars as an act of malicious damage and therefore cover any claims.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 08:57 PM

Dear Little Johnny has played the Race Card sufficiently often in the past few years boat people, etc.

It was necessary for him to do that, as he was afraid that Pauline & One Nation (who he couldn't ridicule hard enough) would steal votes from his Coalition. His actions have interesting revealed that he has assimilated some of the policies of One Nation that cause the most interest in the voters who were attracted to One Nation.

Incidentally, One Nation (who were really quite naive) attracted a large number of neo-nazi types.

The media has mentioned that SMS messages are circulating calling for a show of neo-nazi thuggery in Qld at the Gold Coast this coming weekend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,Jack Halyard
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:19 PM

The difference between the climate of hope and multicultural friendship of the early Labour era and the venomous racism of the howard period is at its starkest. I am ashamed of being and Australian.

If I understand Mr howard's anti-terror laws correctly, incitement to commit an act of terror against Australian citizens is a terrorist act. Does anybody else feel that Alan Jones should be charged under little johnnie's laws?

For any Moslems reading this, I work with several Islamic women who wear the headscarf. They are great colleagues and workers and their pride in their faith does not deserve anything like this. I welcome Islamic people to this country, I respect their faith and I have nothing but contempt for the racist thugs who are rioting at this time and for George Bush, Tony Blair and puny little john howard who created the climate in which the unthinkable could happen in Australia.

                            Jack Halyard.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:24 PM

forgive me if I'm missing something but what are 'bra boys?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:29 PM

Peace task force hits streets, By Edmund Tadros
December 14, 2005 - 12:36PM

A task force of more than 60 community groups will take to the streets to counsel young Lebanese men and teens in a bid to avert more racial violence in Sydney this weekend. Lebanese mothers will also be asked to use their influence and "lovingly" lock up their sons at home this weekend, to keep them out of trouble. The plan is the result of last night's unprecedented meeting of Australia's Lebanese leaders at Lakemba Mosque, held after two weeks of racial unrest across Sydney's beachside suburbs. Eman Dandan, from the Lebanese Muslim Association, told smh.com.au: "Basically we are developing a working group to hit the streets and start talking to boys, notably the young males [who are] disrupting society or whatever. "[This will be done] in collaboration with clerics and young people in the welfare field."

The task force will involve more than 60 community organisations, both Arab-Lebanese and non-Arab Lebanese. "[They will go] wherever these young boys are and talk to them. "[We want to] help them understand that there are different places for them to go without it resulting in any problems and to give them an opportunity to have their voices heard and make an impact in a positive way." The counselling groups will be used when parents feel their sons are beyond their control. "If these kids are listening to their parents, we can address this in another way," she said. "If parents know they can't speak to their child, they can contact these youth workers and get it from that sort of angle."

Ms Dandan said Lebanese leaders were in discussions with community organisations and local councils in the Sutherland Shire There are also plans for Lebanese Australian leaders to meet the NSW Police Commissioner Ken Moroney tomorrow. "Let's initiate this building of bridges," she said. "These [young people who are fighting] from both sides are coming from an ignorant point of view." Ms Dandan said the plan was a first step towards a longer-term project of mediation and reconciliation between the fighting youths.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:38 PM

Banners from the neo-nazis (I don't dignify it with a capital letter!) were seen in the crowds at the recent riots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:41 PM

'bra boys' = Surfers from (Marou)bra.

Well said Jack.

The Rev. Tim Costello from World Vision defines terrorism as 'causing the fear of violence to be vastly unproportional to it's actual likelihood',
or someting to that effect.
If that's a reasonable definition, then the most prominent and successful terrorist group in Australia is the federal government.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 09:48 PM

Right on man!


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 10:04 PM

The NSW govt is going to pass laws on Thursday (here) that, among other things will remove the presumption of access to bail for those on charges of riot and affray.

This concerns me, as I was once present as an observer at Joh's award of an honary doctorate (he was a renowned ant-intellectual!) and the resulting fraca portrayed on TV was decried as a riot by the media.

The TV footage was purely that of the media themselves and the secret state police themselves obstructing Joh - we were all at least 100 feet away!


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: alison
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:03 PM

another demonstration for this weekend... I was sent this one and asked to pass it on....

ONE VILLAGE, ONE PEOPLE
Gather Botanic Gardens Saturday 17th Dec. 1pm
Different faces of Australia come together as one. Lets show those extremist
elements out there that our voices are stronger, and we want to live as one
people in peace. Violence & intolerance has no place in this nation. Show
the world that the silent majority are living together as one, respect each
other and show the same love for this country.

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Dec 05 - 11:27 PM

I saw video of this today............

bigoted thugs are the same the world over...they only have slightly different targets. They need the authorites in whatever country/state they are in to make it CLEAR that violence and harassment will not be tolerated!!!

I have watched stuff like this since the 1950s, and I am worn pretty thin seeing ignorance lead to this over & over & over. In my country, in your country, in THEIR country...stupidity and alcohol lead to the same thing when little effort is made BEFORE the problem bolis over.

I hope Australia does a better job of sorting it out than my own and other countries, but forgive me if I don't hold my breath!


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: hilda fish
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 03:17 AM

Here's how it goes. My son who is very dark, was walking the kids on the beach at Maroubra, nothing to do with Cronulla, on Sunday evening. Was attacked and knocked out by a bunch of white guys. Yobbos they are called and racist is not used because after all, my boy is not Middle Easter, he is Aboriginal. Oh it is alcohol, it is stupidity. Still the kids are too frightened to go out just like I was as a kid.   I was raised like this and it comes up all the time. It's just bigger and more overtly violent at the moment. I take anyone on who approaches me in a racist way at any time - remember the supermarket Freda? A daily occurrence one way of another. If you are not 'white' in this country you live in fear because the country is built on racism. I fear it will turn into what I grew up with - however Australia also has many people, black, white, brindle - who are of good will and want to see a point in time when equality is not just an idea and fear is not a living every day occurrence. Still, it is the Middle Easter people, the Asian people, the Islander people, and us, the Εboriginal people who are dying, unemployed, unhoused, and in prison more than it is any other (read white) race in this country. I have to go to a funeral this Saturday morning at 10.30 a.m. at Sutherland. The one we are burying is of Middle Eastern/Portugese/Aboriginal as is the entire family and friends.What do you reckon my chances of a peaceful and grieving time are? Here's some stuff I've had over the last ten hours.
Dear Sisters
It's time for women to make a stand for peace. Don't let yobbos be the Voice of Australia.
When? This Saturday 17th
Where? Meet at Cronulla station 11.00am
Why: To make a statement for community harmony and peace
With what? bring flowers for peace - to walk to the beach and create a peace sign on the sand
Dear sydneywomen4peace,
        The issue is about racism and my feeling is that is what you should be making a statement about. Peace as an idea is for the privileged of our society when those of us who are of colour have no peace while racism rears its ugly head. As well, going to Cronulla is both unrealistic and provocative given the circumstances of recent history. I speak as an Aboriginal woman who recognises that maybe you have good will but am concerned that you are misguided in this one. I am also both suspicious and mistrustful that this is a call for 'numbers' in order to create yet another racist situation.

A major problem has arisen, that is, possible blocking of access on the beach by police. Consequently, it looks like the flower demo is not feasible.

Those who wanted to attend are encouraged to go to one of these instead:

ONE VILLAGE, ONE PEOPLE
Gather Botanic Gardens Saturday 17th Dec. 1pm
Different faces of Australia come together as one. Lets show those extremist elements out there that our voices are stronger, and we want to live as one people in peace. Violence & intolerance has no place in this nation. Show the world that the silent majority are living together as one, respect each other and show the same love for this country.

There is also one on Sunday, organised by the National Union of Students:
Details:
A meeting of 100 activists, initiated by the National Union of
Students Anti-Racism Officer Osmond Chi, at the University of Technology Sydney last night organised an emergency anti-racism rally for this weekend:
WHEN: Sunday, 18th December 2005
TIME: 1pm
WHERE: Town Hall Square (Sydney)


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 03:48 AM

How many people rioted? numbers?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Terry K
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:17 AM

GUEST - they don't wear numbers, you must be thinking of football, which is similar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:25 AM

?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:27 AM

5000 reported


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,Riots in Australia
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:29 AM

just like france. racism caused these riots - nothing else. whites are attacked and in france who can blame the immigrants for rioting when they are pushed to the fringe of society.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Sandra in Sydney
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 07:39 AM

3 articles from ABC (Aust Broadcasting Corp) Radio National - one of the best sources of news in Oz.

latest news

from AM (news program) Monday

ABC reporter who grew up in The Shire (Cronulla peninsular) & lives nearby


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Piers
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:16 AM

But M. Riots in Australia, why does so irrational a belief as racism exist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,Riots in Australia
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 08:32 AM

Is it a belief-system?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 09:00 AM

"How many people rioted? numbers?"
"GUEST - they don't wear numbers, you must be thinking of football, which is similar."

Speaking as one who was around during the Vietnam days, Aussie Police were known to remove their numbers before the game started too!

:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:12 AM

I have difficulty believing that the effort to disrupt is not orchestrated. To say that racism is institutional is one thing--and apt, IMO. To think riots just happen without 'someone or some organization' pushing it is not clear thinking, IMO. So, who or what is causing it?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:38 AM

well was an organisation behind the paris riots?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:42 AM

of course there wasn't. According to prevelant opinion, paris riots were caused by white racism, and the sydney riots were caused by white racists.

either way white man is devil


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:57 AM

There are opposing views about that. Any google search will make that clear. The question one has to answer, as always, is cui bono. Obviously minorities don't benefit. So what aspect of government--or what aspect of extremist groups--benefit? Governments are able to enact laws that give police sweeping powers. The 'right' wing groups benefit from that. And so does their agenda. It involves making minorities the 'enemy' and the focus of hate, because as is rational, they will respond, for which I do not blame them. They will also lose. So, . . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 10:58 AM

Recipe for trouble

Take a bunch of young men who know nothing is history or propaganda.

Add alcohol or illegal other substances.

Add testosterone and stir.

Tell them lies carefully crafted to arouse fear and anger.

Define an enemy, preferably to someone different in appearance, so they can tell who's who.

(If everybody is the same color, have some wear blue T-shirts and some red T-shirts, so they know who to hate. If you're in the Middle East, use hats.)

Add alcohol and lies until the violence occurs; lean back and enjoy yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:13 AM

Start here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:21 AM

Another view.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:25 AM

two words:

Drop Bears


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:26 AM

two more words:

Sex, Travel


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,John Hernandez
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:40 AM

As someone who can easily be mistaken for a person of Arab origin, I have to echo CarolC's concerns. I am a US citizen of Cuban origin. I have a Latino appearnace, mostly white, but not quite, and I feel more than a liitle uneasy when the TV reports that cops here in the Washington DC area are looking for a Hispanic man in his forties. I can't imagine what I would feel like in Sydney these days! Maybe two Lebanese youths did beat up a life guard. That's a crime, and if they did it then they should be arrested, tried, and if convicted punished according to the law. But a much bigger crime took place when 5,000 white guys (and some gals) went on a rampage of rioting, assault, and intimidation. If the authorities fail to act effectively, then it's time to add Australia to the list of countries that talks a good game about democracy but which lacks the guts to put its resources where its mouth is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 11:50 AM

Thanks for all that information. Much more than the bare news of 15 lines we did get in our press.

I hope the voices of reason prevail.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:05 PM

That's a crime, and if they did it then they should be arrested, tried, and if convicted punished according to the law. But a much bigger crime took place when 5,000 white guys (and some gals) went on a rampage of rioting, assault, and intimidation.

I second that. its like in america when blacks riot because some copper beat the shit out of one of their 'niggaz'? and they riot. then you get some liberal wet-freak saying the riots are understandable.

If blacks riot, crack down on them, if whites riot crack down on them. but dont fabricate excuses for one and not the other. there are no excuses


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:15 PM

Saying/establishing what caused the riots is not 'fabricating' excuses, Zelger. Also, your use of the word 'niggaz' is extremely offensive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM

establishment get-outs like 'poverty' 'unemployment' is a get-out clause.

'niggaz' is a term i watched last night on fresh prince of belair. 'niggaz' is a term used on countless r'n'b albums i have! 'niggaz' is a commonly used term used by black folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:23 PM

Are you Black, zelger?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:29 PM

are you a drop bear Carol?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:31 PM

awesome


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:31 PM

The racists float to the top, just like turds. Hi, rarelamb.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:44 PM

Hey instead of calling each other names why don't we face the facts. Drop bears are an immenent threat to civilization.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Piers
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:46 PM

Drop bear: Australian tree-dwelling marsupial, found mostly in bushland areas, but also known to live in inner-city parks. The drop bear is characterised by it's unusual defense mechanism - when the male senses danger, the drop bear glides or 'drops' down from it's perch and uses it's powerful hind spur to barb the enemy's eyes.

Sounds like a troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:49 PM

Boy, I was just trying to add a little levity to these dour serious dicussions...


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 01:50 PM

Are you Black, zelger?

In answer to your irrelevant question: No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,John Hernandez
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 02:18 PM

I am all in favor of punishing the wrong doers regardless of color, ethnicity, religion, etc. But I also insist that justice be even handed and intelligent. Intelligent does not mean excusing or turning a blind eye to crime. It does mean understanding the conditions that allow crime to flourish, and even allow it to be celebrated and applauded.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Peace
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 06:28 PM

"Boy, I was just trying to add a little levity to these dour serious dicussions..."

Who you callin' 'boy'?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 09:35 AM

It does mean understanding the conditions that allow crime to flourish, and even allow it to be celebrated and applauded.

What does that mean, celebrated and applauded? In what context?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 10:22 AM

boy o boy? or Yowsers? or GeeWhiz? I think everyone should just chill a little :)


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:08 AM

"Are you Black, zelger?"

In answer to your irrelevant question: No.

Ok. I was just trying to determine whether or not your use of that term was as a show of solidarity with your brothers and sisters of color, or if your use of it was more as a form of ridicule and/or disparagement against people you see as being qualitatively different from yourself.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,Ribble
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:16 AM

Its just a word for fucks sake Carol, don't get offended by a word, Why is everyone so easy to be offended these days, ya spend ya whold day trawling this site to get uppity bout something.

P.S NIGGER, WHITE TRASH, CHINK, FROG who gives a flying fuck


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Terry K
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:26 AM

"If the authorities fail to act effectively, then it's time to add Australia to the list of countries that talks a good game about democracy but which lacks the guts to put its resources where its mouth is".

Do you mean the people of Australia or only the Government?

I don't ever recall any hype about the ordinary people claiming to be immune from life's realities. Australia has always had problems with its immigrants - when I lived there in the 60s the Greeks and Italians copped for all the prejudice because their standards and culture were different from those of the indigents. The Government's response to those problems was to welcome immigrants from even more differing standards and cultures, such as from Lebanon and other middle eastern countries. Now they are courting the Chinese and Vietnamese. The population of Australia has about doubled in the last 35 years and I'm not really surprised that there would be some sort of backlash.

Why is everybody wondering why this happens? - are we so naive as to not have noticed that wherever in the world people have been forced to co-exist without option there have inevitably been problems.

I don't say it's right, just that it is so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:34 AM

In the spirt of the season, you are one stunned stupid fuck, Ribble. Was your dad's name D.Ribble? Maybe not. Would have been better for the world if you had done that down his leg. Just words, Ribble. Just words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:45 AM

Go fuck yaself guest, if you cant handle words then back to the cosy cosy nicely nicley hive of limp wristed liberalism.

SUCK YA MOTHERS AMPLE BREASTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:47 AM

Too close to home limpwrist.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:49 AM

Likely the only tits you evah sucked were your mamas. Poor little baby, all afraid in a world you don't understand. Limpdick arent you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:49 AM

Frig-wart hell blast ya fathers guineapig arsehole with tender streams of let wing fork-fisting - FOR SHAME SIR, FOR SHAME!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 11:57 AM

Wow this thread has taken a turn for the worst. Watch out for in the next life the mighty Drop Bear will take vengence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:25 PM

Words mean things, piddle Ribble. That's why we have them. To convey meaning. But perhaps for you they are just noises you make because you like the way they sound.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,On looker
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:30 PM

Ribble is a racist. He needs understanding and sympathy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:34 PM

Ok. I was just trying to determine whether or not your use of that term was as a show of solidarity with your brothers and sisters of color, or if your use of it was more as a form of ridicule and/or disparagement against people you see as being qualitatively different from yourself.

Neither. if you were able to read my post correctly, you'd understand that. Obviously not!


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:39 PM

Zelger, try to make yourself clear. You are not clear. Not at all CLEAR. Get it? NOT CLEAR. BE CLEAR. Today would be good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:39 PM

Unfortunately for you, zelger, when you use terms like that in the way you did, you are going to look like you are doing either one or the other of the two things I mentioned. I don't know what a third possibility might be, but if there is one, it won't be very apparent to most people who read and/or hear your words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:43 PM

Did they diminish your intelligence when they shaved your head, zelger? Make yourself C L E A R.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:48 PM

I second that. its like in america when blacks riot because some copper beat the shit out of one of their 'niggaz'? and they riot. then you get some liberal wet-freak saying the riots are understandable.

If blacks riot, crack down on them, if whites riot crack down on them. but dont fabricate excuses for one and not the other. there are no excuses


For the person who needs it clearer, obviously thick as shit. Here it is. Carol, here is the third possibility that really didn't need explanation.

I was making usage of black-slang. They make inter-community references to each other as 'niggaz', thats it! That really it! Black folk don't hold rights to this slang, so why can't i use it!


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:50 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger - PM
Date: 14 Dec 05 - 12:19 PM

establishment get-outs like 'poverty' 'unemployment' is a get-out clause.

'niggaz' is a term i watched last night on fresh prince of belair. 'niggaz' is a term used on countless r'n'b albums i have! 'niggaz' is a commonly used term used by black folk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:51 PM

couldn't be any more clearer. Except to imbreds like GUEST. You are mind-numbingly stupid it beggars belief.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 12:59 PM

so why can't i use it

You can. But as I said, when you do, you will look like you are doing one or the other of the two things I mentioned. Personally, I can't see any constructive reason for you to use such language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: zelger
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:02 PM

Thats your problem. You are obviously against freedom of speech and it is clear i did not mean it in a negative way.

You are a tyrant


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:08 PM

Nope. Not my problem. It's your problem. How you are perceived by the majority of people who read and/or hear your words has no effect on me whatever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:17 PM

Try to be CLEAR zelger. You are not CLEAR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:20 PM

zCeLlEgAeRr


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:26 PM

I think zelger is very clear. Unfortunately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:44 PM

I tried to stay away but I fear the topic has fundamentally changed. Carol has now made the issue about language and meaning.

I think the problem is that many on the left confuse words for meaning. The meaning is important not the words. You can change the words all you want the meaning is the point.

It was accurately pointed out that nigger/z is meant by different people to mean different things. Think of the evolution of what we call black people. It doesn't matter whether you call someone negro, black, african american or even nigger. What matters is the intention behind the words. If you want to change what is 'acceptable' to call someone feel free. It will not change the meaning.

All you have done is created an artificial impediment to positive race relations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:51 PM

If your intention behind using the word "niggaz" is to not offend, and you offend by using it, maybe you need to rethink whether or not your intent is being served by the use of that word. If your intention is to offend, then you cannot claim that you do not intend to offend when you use that word.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:56 PM

This was his meaning:

"Carol, here is the third possibility that really didn't need explanation.

I was making usage of black-slang. They make inter-community references to each other as 'niggaz', thats it! That really it! Black folk don't hold rights to this slang, so why can't i use it!"

Can we leave it at that? Or does it have to be nefarious?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 01:59 PM

You are not CLEAR, rarelamb. NOT CLEAR at all. Clear. Make yourself CLEAR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 02:01 PM

If you really believe that bullshit rarelamb, go use the word in a 'Black' bar. Or use a term of similar 'worth' in an Asian bar. G'head. Arsehole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 02:05 PM

I pray and work for the time when race and creed and skin color and religion and all other things that divide humans become valueless descriptors. Unfortunately, that time has not arrived in any nation that I know of.

****

I also want to say that I take great exception to zelger's comment that "'niggaz' is a commonly used term used by black folk.", and that he was "making usage of black-slang. They make inter-community references to each other as 'niggaz'"

As a Black female {African American}I want to remind zelger {and others who need such reminding}that the term "Black folk" implies that there is a one group of people who are "Black" .

His comment also implies that everyone in this homogeneous group thinks alike, speaks alike, and acts alike {not to mention that everyone in this "Black folk" group has the same nationality and has the same ancestral background within that nation}.

I hope that it is obvious that this is not true. With regard to the "n-word", I hope that zelger and others know that a large number of Black people vehemently disapprove of and do not use the "niggaz" term. I am one of them.

Zelger would be much more correct if he said that "niggaz" is a
hip-hop cultural term. However, not all people who are "in to" hip-hop music use or approve of the use of that referent.

However, I do agree that some Black people who use that
"n-word" {spelled "niggaz" or other wise} have different reactions to its use dependent on where, when, and who uses it.

However, my main point is that it is my not at all humble opinion that it is wrong to lump all people into one homogenous mass and make statements describing those people {either as an outsider or a member of that group}.

And one more thing-I strongly believe that the referent "White folk" is just as wrong [minded], and inaccurate as the term "Black folk"...

That said, I don't think that zelger meant to make a racist statement, or at least I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say that he didn't meant to do so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 02:09 PM

Zelger is one of the lost boyz. No one likes him in real life. Even his friendz. He is a racist. Probly joinz gangz so he can beat up someone weaker than him. That just bogglez ones mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 02:12 PM

Ah.. now into a discussion about stereotypes. The fact is that you can isolate populations based upon demographics.

And yes, you can lump large groups of people including the black population. I will bet anyone $12321354173459730945 dollars that in the next presidential election teh democratic candidate will receive over 75% of the black vote.

You can and do stereotype whether you like it or not. So long as man is a rational animal he will continue to try to make sense of his environment.

The question is not whether or not to stereotype as this is inevitable but rather being rational enough to know the value of that stereotype.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 02:14 PM

Make yourself CLEAR, rarebit, make yourself CLEARRRRRRRRRRRRR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,rarelamb
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 02:14 PM

"Arsehole"

You see I could take this in a negative fashion but i'll bet the author really means "swell guy".

:) LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 02:20 PM

Yes she does you twisted twittle, she, she, she. Now be CLEAR.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Dec 05 - 06:51 PM

"There's glory for you!"

"I don't know what you mean by "glory",' Alice said.

Humpty Dumpty smiled contemptuously. "Of course you don't -- till I tell you. I meant 'there's a nice knock-down argument for you!' "

"But 'glory' doesn't mean 'a nice knock-down argument'," Alice objected.

"When I use a word," Humpty Dumpty said, in rather a scornful tone, "it means just what I choose it to mean - neither more nor less."


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 04:53 AM

Carol C your ivory tower dominion has been devoured, you need good service or else your cavity will explode with the unfullfillment it so richly deserves, FOR SHAME MADAM, FOR SHAME


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 06:56 PM

Dear

"Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 04:53 AM"

Your use, misuse and abuse of the comma needs serious work. You are a wanker. CarolC is so far above you intellectually that you can't see her from where you are. Give it up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,tam the man
Date: 16 Dec 05 - 07:50 PM

for some reason the leaders of the Australian Nation and councilers can't admit that they were racist, and then that dickhead, one of the leaders comes on to the telly and thinks I'll say I'm sorry and thinks that's all right. Well you're too late.

Tom


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,riots in australia
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 11:41 AM

Your use, misuse and abuse of the comma needs serious work. You are a wanker. CarolC is so far above you intellectually that you can't see her from where you are. Give it up.

Of course she is


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 05:27 PM

Saturday, December 17, 2005. 2:37pm; Cultural program to ease Sydney tensions

Nearly half-a-million dollars will be spent promoting respect and understanding between ethnic groups, after a week of racial violence in Sydney. A total of $440,000 will be spent over three years on projects that provide cross-cultural experiences for young people from Sydney's Sutherland Shire district and Lebanese communities. The federal Minister for Multicultural Affairs, John Cobb, says Australians of ethnic background will be encouraged to become lifesavers.

"We want to have a program which basically educates everybody in how things work on the beach," he said. The announcement was made at Cronulla Beach, where Lebanese people were targeted in mob bashings last weekend.

abc newsonline


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Donuel
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 06:44 PM

Imagine for a moment that you are having this discussion face to face.
The people who are being most rude here, would be too ashamed embarrased and cowardly to be as insulting as they are in print.


I am curious if the riots are at their core protesting aboriginal discrimination, or if other minorites are spear heading the demonstrations?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,Nosmo King
Date: 17 Dec 05 - 10:57 PM

The Aborigines started it all. They were the first in Australia to require sidelining on the grounds of being unacceptably different.

(By this I mean having cultural habits, religious beliefs and physical appearance incompatable with the European/Abrahamic idea of land ownership.
Land ownership is pivotal to it all.)

But this particular fracase is not related directly to the Aborigines. It concerns one Abrahamic group showing disrespect for another Abrahamic group's percieved rights of land ownership. Land ownership is pivotal to everything Abrahamic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:11 AM

It is the media inspired by Howard that has pushed the thing along. This has allowed the neo-nazi types to capitalise on the hatred engendered. Don;t ask me - that's what is getting said in lots of interviews of people in the street shown on the media.... :-) so now the media can sensationalise by bashing Howard... !!!

The beaches in NSW were shut down Saturday and Sunday - over 1600 police on patrol. A few dozen cars and several dozen mobile phones confiscated - some weapons (sticks with nails in, metal bars, molotov cocktails and makings thereof, etc) confiscated, but other wise no violence. Some idiots took bottles of petrol in a backpack on a bus - the driver rang police when he smelt petrol! Some fools caught with a pile of bottle and 25 litres of petrol in their car! And that after all the publicity.

Also several rallies against the new restrictive laws - which have a couple of years sunset clause. Police restricted themselves to 'suggesting' that protesters keep the noise level down by discouraging excessive use of electric megaphones.

There was also some police activity on the Gold Coast in QLD, and some interest in Vic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 06:30 PM

A good thing that has come out of all this is that community groups have met and agreed to take it upon themselves to educate each other about themselves. Communication is the backbone of peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 07:13 PM

The 5 guys with the 25 litres of petrol didn't have bottles - thay had lots of condoms .... !!!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:47 PM

The mind boggles!

What were they planning to do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 08:56 PM

The Police arrested them on the grounds that they planned to f*** something (or somebody), that's for sure! The first reports didn't mention condoms, just 'bomb making materials'.

BTW, the guys with the bottles of petrol on the bus had plastic bottles - I know the originals were supposed to be glass that would shatter, but I suppose the plastic would melt and spread the liquid too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 09:00 PM

BTW, to use the Aussie vernacular, the 5 guys were obvioulsy a bunch of dickheads!


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 10:33 PM

Ah well, whatever they were intending, I'm glad to see they were going to do it safely.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 18 Dec 05 - 11:45 PM

Maybe they were going to put them over their heads...


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:04 AM

They were white supremicists, one of the papers said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 07:58 PM

...not wishing to scatter their pearls before swine, I assume?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Peace
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:08 PM

BUT, who pushed the buttons?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 19 Dec 05 - 08:22 PM

Well, after the weekend, and the local businesses have discovered that all their customers stayed away! Lots of casual workers discovered that they had no job over the weekend, as will be the case untill people start visiting the beach suburbs again (if ever). The NSW Premier has refused any cash compensation to affected businesses - the weeks before Xmas are normally the best trading all year.

The media seems to have a dearth of info about just how many trouble makers were arrested (only seen mention of the two lots I mentioned above), or just how much problem material was confiscated.

The result seems to be - 1500 police on extra paid duty for a few days - a handful of troublemakers, and losses for the small business community, with most people having stayed away form the beach on a hot weekend.

The two guys with the plastic bottles of petrol - one said he was carrying it for a friend, and the other said he was going to use it for petrol sniffing - not entirely unbelievable, as petrol sniffing is a big problem in some areas, and subcultures.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 05:52 AM

Ah, it's getting complicated now....

One guy was found with an unlicensed handgun (pistol). Now it's a bit difficult to get a pistol licence here in Oz... so he'e probably in deep dudu!

But on the other hand, another guy fronted a very unimpressed magistrate today. He got bail (commented upon because of the recent law changes about bail!) because the beak said the police case was laughably flimsy. True - he had a helmet (with a light on it), a gas mask, and several other potentially dangerous implements. Seems he is a 'sewer runner' - a paid up member of a club that traces old sewers and tunnels by walking thru them...


Poll says
75% of people believe Aust is a racist place
81% of people beleve multiculturalism is working

??


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 06:10 AM

Now that's interesting - just heard on late news that they're the same guy!

Beside the pistol, and smoke bombs, he also had material from white supremacist sites on his computer - and allegedly in his car.

Still no word on the condoms, guys... what would _you_ use them for if you were caving?

And just how the hell would you use them to make 'petrol bombs' - _safely_ make them that is...


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Subject: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,Patricia Chriss
Date: 20 Dec 05 - 11:56 PM

Lebs versus Surfies. An interesting twist to an age-old problem with Australian surf culture.
Both are territorial groups of deluded alpha males and both groups derive their confidence when congregating in packs...a bit like a societal 'blood clot'.

What they need is to be injected with an anticoagulant substance. Something sobering like stricter laws for their poor, disrespectful behaviour. Perhaps home-detention every summer until they grow-up!

That will allow us girls to get our tans in peace, and have less morons harassing us when we go about our daily business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 02:41 AM

Most of the Lebs are in fact not muslims, but an eastern Christian sect (can't remember name - starts with an "M")


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 04:05 AM

My brother-in-law's a Leb and he's an Orthodox Catholic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: polaitaly
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 06:36 AM

Foolestroupe, that's " Maroniti".
paola


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Dec 05 - 11:09 AM

i struggle here. I'd like to think nazis are responsible, but there is bloody thousands of them gathering. these are not nazis


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 04:31 AM

These are mainly cretins, who will be told what to think by anyone with a stronger mind and an agenda. Unfortunately Australia is full of cretins and has its fair share of Nazis too, like most industrialised countries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 01:25 PM

Don't be stupid. Thousands of them. Yes they are all cretins and nazis, get real. lets bash the white man with a racist hammer again, for what? Because he wants his country stay their own. There is worse 'crimes'


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 03:49 PM

"Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: GUEST,MG
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 01:25 PM

Don't be stupid. Thousands of them. Yes they are all cretins and nazis, get real. lets bash the white man with a racist hammer again, for what? Because he wants his country stay their own. There is worse 'crimes'"

I really hope English isn't your first language.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:37 PM

Guest MG -

You no longer wish to write bullshit, and what you do write, you now wish to write in an artciulate manner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Dec 05 - 05:55 PM

Because he wants his country stay their own.

Australia is not the "white man's" country.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Terry K
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 06:28 AM

Can anybody tell me where is a white man's country - because it seems to me there is always some (usually white, usually female, usually misguided) person telling me that every country in the world belongs to black people and we whites should all feel really, really guilty about stealing their land.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 07:09 AM

always was, always will be aboriginal land..


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 10:29 AM

Can anybody tell me where is a white man's country - because it seems to me there is always some (usually white, usually female, usually misguided) person telling me that every country in the world belongs to black people and we whites should all feel really, really guilty about stealing their land.

Well, it sure ain't Australia, North or South America, Africa, Asia, or any of the other places "white men" took (or tried to take) from others. On the other hand, now that many people from the places the "white men" have been interfering with have escaped those places and relocated to the "white man's" country (Europe, mostly), Europe can't really be said to belong to the "white man" either. Law of unintended consequences, I suppose. If the "white man" wanted to keep "his country" his own, he should have stayed there and left the rest of the world alone. Too late to fix it now. You'll just have to learn to live with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 12:41 PM

Why is it that threads of this nature bring out every racist asshole on the Mudcat--most of whom are too ashamed to post under their usual names?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: TheBigPinkLad
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:19 PM

Yes, it's a pity. I think some of the Guests might well be people (regular Mudcatters) who know the consequences of taking anything but the PC view on race though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: freda underhill
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:23 PM

bring back PC - the alternative has been lousy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: dianavan
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 01:31 PM

Terry K. - Since most aboriginals are people of colour, I figure most white men must be aliens from outer space who have been sent here to conquer the world.

Go back to Mars.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Peace
Date: 23 Dec 05 - 04:25 PM

Does it make the racists here happy to see this?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Terry K
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 04:00 AM

It's just the supposed guilt trip that pisses me off - I didn't conquer any countries, yet I'm supposed to feel guilty about my ancestors making the most of their world. The big double standard is that those who criticise white people for occupying other people's countries in the past are the same ones who claim that the world is for everyone to share.

Countries have been conquered and re-conquered over and over again in the past - England being the classic example. Am I supposed to take my Viking origins back to Denmark or simply spend my life seeking out and apologising to anyone who was here before 1066?

On that note, Carol C and dianavan, it worries me that you continually seek to differentiate between white people (the invader) and "people of colour" (the victims). Can you not just for once see the world for what it is, without this fixation about the colour of people's skins?


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 12:22 PM

I refuse to feel 'guilty' about being Caucasian (White) or about living in North America--specifically Canada. I have heard the bullshit about everything here belonging to to Native North Americans--that remark was from a NNA, and my response was, "Then you too should go back to where you came from." However, the aspect of racism that is being discussed on this thread is not the aforementioned. It is, rather, the institutionalized form that is all too prevalent in government and business.

No one can make you feel 'guilty' if you don't buy in.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 12:33 PM

You don't have to feel guilty, Terry K. And I do not focus on colo(u)r of skin. But I don't have any problem with pointing out when others do. Like you, for instance...

"Can anybody tell me where is a white man's country"

Why do you feel that the "white man" needs a country all for himself? Nobody else has a country all to themself. Everybody else has to share.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 12:51 PM

PS I have spent numerous years of my life working with people of various backgrounds, and it's true that once ya get past the crap that doesn't matter (colour, language, religion), most folks are pretty good.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 02:06 PM

Given the personal racism against others who are different from them that far too many people still have, and given the continued existence of institutional racism in far to many systems, I would like to make a friendly ammendment to Peace's last sentence...

"it's true that once ya get past the crap that shouldn't matter (colour, language, religion), most folks are pretty good."


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Peace
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 02:14 PM

From a "Robert's Rules of Order" site:

Question 8:
How do you deal with a "friendly amendment"?

Answer:
On occasion, while a motion is being debated, someone will get up and offer what he or she terms a "friendly amendment" to the motion, the maker of the original motion will "accept" the amendment, and the chair will treat the motion as amended. This is wrong. Once a motion has been stated by the chair, it is no longer the property of the mover, but of the assembly. Any amendment, "friendly" or otherwise, must be adopted by the full body, either by a vote or by unanimous consent."

There ain't no such thing as a friendly amendment. LOL


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 02:16 PM

Terry K - It seems you are the one fixated on race and sex, and you're not very charitable either. As long as people like you steroetype, people like me will continue to 'talk back'.

Good luck finding an all-white country. Whites are a definite minority in this world. Why should you have a country all to yourself? You already control most of the world and consume most of the World's resources. What more do you want?

Like I said, I see no evidence that Whites are originally from this planet. Where did they come from anyway? Its obvious to me that they have been sent to destroy earth. :>)


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Dec 05 - 02:22 PM

Definitions of Institutional racism on the Web:

Those forces, social arrangements, institutions, structures, policies, precedents and systems of social relations that operate to deprive certain racially identified categories equality .
www.socialpolicy.ca/i.htm

or structural racial discrimination -- racial discrimination by governments, corporations, or other large organizations. (eg Mary cannot get a job, despite her qualifications, because she is of race Y.)
www.politicalinformation.net/encyclopedia/Racism.htm

Institutional racism (or structural racism) is a form of racism that occurs in institutions such as public bodies and corporations, including universities.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institutional_racism


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: Terry K
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 12:41 PM

"Australia is not the "white man's" country".

CarolC and dianavan, my rhetorical question was in response to CarolC's post as quoted - in my frustration at Carol once again implying that the "white man" she mentioned doesn't belong anywhere.

But it's clear from your subsequent posts that your tunnel vision will not allow you to think any other way, so once again it's bye bye to what could have been an interesting thread if it hadn't got bound up with your stereotypical taunts and accusations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 02:05 PM

CarolC and dianavan, my rhetorical question was in response to CarolC's post as quoted - in my frustration at Carol once again implying that the "white man" she mentioned doesn't belong anywhere.

Terry K, I know you're not anywhere near as ignorant and stupid as this remark makes you look. (On second thoughts, you probably are.)

I have never suggested that the "white man" doesn't belong anywhere (and you cannot find a single example of my having done so). To say that Australia is not the "white man's" country is to say that Australia belongs to no single "people", but to all of its inhabitants, white or otherwise.

To say there is no "white man's country" is to say that there is no country that belongs exclusively, or even predominently to the "white man".

Time for you and people like you to grow up and learn to share.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 07:06 PM

If all people were forced to go back to where they originally came from, then we'd all have to go back to a monkey's bum!


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 07:09 PM

Bye, bye, Terry K.

Good luck in your quest to find an all White country.

Don't hold your breath.


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Subject: RE: BS: Riots in Australia
From: John O'L
Date: 26 Dec 05 - 07:50 PM

I grew up in The Shire and my sister still lives there, with her (Lebanese) husband and their children. This Christmas it was her turn to host the Boxing Day family get-together, so my two brothers and I visited them with our own families.

It seems that I had the wrong idea in some of my earlier posts. The trouble has been brewing for some time (years rather than months), and can be squarely laid as the fault of a teenage Lebanese gang that has been meeting at North Cronulla and growing bigger, less inhibited, and steadily more threatening over time.

Now I don't think there is anything inherently evil about Lebanese teenagers, or even gangs of them, but there will always be trouble when such eventualities are allowed to go unchecked.

Apparently the media was blamed by many in the aftermath of the riots, for not reporting the situation earlier than they did, and I guess we can also blame local law enforcement and community groups for not makiing a big thing of it before flashpoint.

Now it has evolved into something it originally had nothing to do with, involving Australian racism, which has always been a problem too easily shuffled aside for later. This could be a good thing, if we can come to grips with it in a rational and reasonable way.

I am always hopeful.


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Mudcat time: 15 July 1:41 PM EDT

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