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BS: KatrinaGate

Bobert 16 Nov 05 - 08:44 PM
Amos 16 Nov 05 - 08:48 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 05 - 09:11 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 05 - 09:20 PM
Azizi 16 Nov 05 - 09:38 PM
Azizi 16 Nov 05 - 09:47 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 05 - 09:54 PM
Bobert 16 Nov 05 - 10:03 PM
Ebbie 16 Nov 05 - 10:05 PM
GUEST 17 Nov 05 - 03:19 PM
Bobert 17 Nov 05 - 10:16 PM
Ebbie 17 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM
Teribus 17 Nov 05 - 11:15 PM
Ebbie 17 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM
GUEST 18 Nov 05 - 09:03 AM
Bobert 18 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM
Teribus 18 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM
Bobert 18 Nov 05 - 08:45 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 18 Nov 05 - 09:26 PM
Peace 18 Nov 05 - 09:32 PM
Teribus 19 Nov 05 - 05:41 AM
Bobert 19 Nov 05 - 08:42 AM
GUEST,A 19 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM
DougR 19 Nov 05 - 01:02 PM
Naemanson 19 Nov 05 - 02:45 PM
Bobert 19 Nov 05 - 06:08 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 21 Nov 05 - 08:59 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 05 - 09:29 PM
GUEST,A 21 Nov 05 - 09:57 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 21 Nov 05 - 10:09 PM
Peace 21 Nov 05 - 10:14 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM
GUEST,Old Guy 21 Nov 05 - 10:33 PM
Peace 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM
Peace 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 05 - 10:40 PM
Bobert 21 Nov 05 - 10:52 PM
GUEST,A 22 Nov 05 - 05:01 AM
GUEST,A 22 Nov 05 - 05:07 AM
Peace 22 Nov 05 - 10:26 AM
GUEST 22 Nov 05 - 03:26 PM
Bobert 22 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM
GUEST,A 23 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM
Peace 23 Nov 05 - 11:06 AM
GUEST,A 23 Nov 05 - 01:00 PM
Peace 23 Nov 05 - 02:48 PM
GUEST 23 Nov 05 - 02:55 PM
Bobert 23 Nov 05 - 05:10 PM
Peace 23 Nov 05 - 05:21 PM
GUEST,petr 23 Nov 05 - 08:46 PM
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Subject: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:44 PM

Well, well, well...

"Yer doin' a good job, Brownie"

Well, in this case he might have or might not have but one thing fir sure is that Bush and Homeland Security Director, Micheal Chertoff weren't up to the task...

Ahhhh, how many Bush apologists have ever heard of the "National Response Plan"???

(Hmmmmmm, Bobert, none holdin' up their hands...)

Well, it was unvieled last January by the DoHS and it "was supposed to be a blueprint in this post-September 11 world for how we were going to deal with a massive catastrophe. While certainly terrorism was an emphasis behind this document, it very clearly says this is to be used when you have a major catastrophic natural disaster, such as a hurricane." (Alison Young, Knight Ritter reporter).

"It very clearly says that in a catastrope, where you either anticipate or it has allready happened that locals have become overwhelmed by the situation, both in terms of resources and the structure, that the federal governemnt is supposed to take (a) proactive steps to protect the lives of citizens." (Alison Young, Knight Ritter reporter)

"Ultimately, this plan designates the Secretary of Homeland Defense as the person who is supposed to be the principal federasl official in charge when disater strikes" (Ibid)

So here's the way it was upposed to work, folks... Top down and not vice versa... Brownie wasn't the one callin' the shots here...

So we fast forward to the Congressional hearing with Michael Brown...

Rep. Christopher Shays: "Now, with the non-evacuation, when you knew that niether the governor or mayor were going to do their job, did you call- and I would like to bring the President in. When did you contact ther President to say we have a catastrophe happening with an incompetent mayor and incompetent governor not responding to this. When did you contact the President to let him know this extraordinary crisis that would impact our country?"

Michael Brown: "I talked to the White House on both Saturday and Sunday. And throughout the disaster."

Sheys: "So the first conversation was Saturday?"

Brown: "I think the first conversation was Saturday, yes. It may have been Friday, but I have to go back and check my records."

Shays: "Why not sooner? I mean, you had indications that this was- I mean, we knew on Friday that it was going to hit New Orleans, and we knew by Friday that it was going to be basiclly as category four ot five. You had a pretty good sense that the mayor and the governor were not interacting with each other. And you basically had- even then, you wanted them to evacuate, right, on Friday?"

Brown: "Yes, that's the plan, correct."

Shays: "Yeah, okay. Amd they didn't implement it. So did you ask for, quote unquote, a "higher authority" to help you out so you could help save lives?"

Brown: "I'm sorry, can you repeat the question?"

Shays: "Did you ask for a higher authroity to help you out? You're the head of FEMA, but the governor and mayor aren't paying attention to you. I want to know who you asked for help."

Brown: "On Saturday and Sunday, I started talking to the White House."

Shays: "To who?"

Brown; "On Saturday and Sunday, I started talking to the White House."

Shays: "The White House is a big place. So give us specifics. I'm not asking about conversations yet, I want to know who you contacted."

Brown: I exchanged emails and phones calls with Joe Hagin, Andy Card and the President."

BINGO, folks!!!!

So here is my question. Given that a FEMA reaction is top-down triggered then if Bush knew of what was going down, as Brown has said he did, then shouldn't the orders dome from the top, seein' as Bush's own National Response Plan outlined???

Hey, Brownie did his job...

Bush didn't, since he knew that a category for or five hurricane was about to hit New Orleans, had been told by Brownie that the local authorities were not up to handling the situation...

Bush should have told Certoff to get the ball rolling...

Hey, it wasn't like some other administyartion had writtne the National Response Plan... It was the Bush administarion and when it was time for it to be implimented, drunk frat boy was yet again... AWOL...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Amos
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:48 PM

Well, he did have other things on his plate at the time, Bobert -- be reasonable -- there was all that torturing going on, billions of dollars to re-direct into the hands of the needy greedy, favours to catch up on. Puppetmasters to report to. Falsehoods to contrive. PR tapdance steps to master. I mean c;mon -- this guy is a busy man!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:11 PM

And vacation. Don't forget his vacation. A man is entitled to a vacation now and then, right?

And Cheney needed a vacation too and so did Ms. Rice. Surely you can't fault them for that?

After all, they were on the job (kind of) within 10 days or so.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:20 PM

Well, good points there, Amos.... And I'm sure that when the Bush apologists have caught their breat here they may indeed point out those duties....

Funny thing, this is purdy much the same case I laid out to GUEST, A and got back zip, nada, nuthin'.... Yeah I challenged him to just pick one danged thing he thought Bush did an okay job on... So he just picked this one... So I threw it to hiom and he went like... "Bobert's a nut" 'er somethin'like that...

Problem with the Bush apologists is that ain't some blog to click on the offer up their defense, they are, fir the most part, too danged lazy to go out and do any research... So they just call you a "f*ck" and go one with their ignorant selves....

Hope GUEST A will do a little homework here and get on in this discussion but I don't expect it...

And fir the record, I don't go to no blogs... What you read and see is waht you get... I do my research one newspaper article at a time, one Google serach at a time and one issue at a time... The old fashioned way...

So, fir you bloggers, you might not have had this case laid out this way but this is the way I've found it and it don't llok good on the Bush adminisratiion....

I understand that Bush is gonna start puttiin' refuggee out on the street in two weeks... No more rent assistance... Hey, they've got a big tax cut fir the rich and a war in Iraq to pay for...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:38 PM

4,000 people are still declared missing in New Orleans.

This story is just heartbreaking.

See this excerpt from a dailykos diary by clammyc
Wed Nov 16, 2005 at 10:55:19 AM PDT

"How quickly two months go by.

Yet, that is how long it has been since Katrina hit, and it has been 6 weeks since the search for bodies in the 9th Ward was halted. And lest we think otherwise, it was known at the time that there were still bodies that were not recovered.

And now we hear that since families are just starting to come back to the Ninth Ward to see the destruction, collect what they can of their belongings, or even check on the houses of families or loved ones, gruesome discoveries are being made...

and per Anderson Cooper yesterday...

'Well, the death toll keeps rising.

You know, it's hard to imagine anything worse than coming back to your home in New Orleans and finding it completely destroyed. But, tonight, as you're about to hear, there is something worse, much worse. Dozens of families have returned to what is left of their homes and found, lying amidst the mold and the wreckage, a body, forgotten, abandoned. Maybe it's their mother or their grandmother, sometimes even their missing child.

The state called off searching house to house in New Orleans well over a month ago. They said they completed the job. Clearly, they have not. In tonight's "Keeping Them Honest," our daily segment devoted to New Orleans and the still devastated Gulf Coast, we try to find out who is to blame...'"

-snip-


Read the entire diary and comments at
Bodies of loved ones found in NOLA

One things for sure-this is not the America we were raised to believe in.

The American dream may never has been real for many but this nightmare is absolutely outrageous.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Azizi
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:47 PM

BTW, my brother Bobert,

You said "And fir the record, I don't go to no blogs...I do my research one newspaper article at a time, one Google serach at a time and one issue at a time... The old fashioned way..."

And right after that comment, I quoted an excerpt from a diary from the one of the blogs {if not THE blog} that receives the most "hits" {visitors}every day.

Yet I put my own comments in the mix too..

So IMO quoting from blogs should be something that is acceptable here.

I hope you're down with that.

If not-we're still cool.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 09:54 PM

Good point, MiziAzizi... More folks missin' from Katrina than were kil;led on 9/1!!!! Where's the millions an' millions of dollars fir each family that lost a loved one??? No, instead no milllions the Bush administration is gettin' ready to pull the plug in the rent subsidies to house the refugees, which, BTW, are predominently black...

Meanwhile, back in New Yorkl 'er C.D. families recieve millions of bucks for their lost loved ones/wage earners...

(So what is you tryin' to say here, bobert???)

Well, I*z gonna put it as blunt as it should be put: What has happened in New Orleans during and after Katrina was as racist tging as I've seen since Selma... Yeah, New Orleans is Bush's Selma... Or Littlerock....

This is disgusting... When you drive around Washington, D.C. area there are more million dollar mansions than a man could count... Thwey are evrywhere and they are owned by lobbiests who get the big bucks to run our government because our congressmen are too busy rai9sing dough to get re-elected...

Meanwhile, Bush was asleep at the wheel during Katrina... Brownie tried to wake hi up but may the boy had one too many a pretzel that night...

(Like how do you spell, AWOL, BObert???)

Yeah, conscious or not, racism is over-rode the Bush administrations actions during Katrina and they still are...

Shamefull...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:03 PM

Miz,

Hey, I ain't got no problem with blogs, per sey... The problem I have is when the Bush apologists here don't actually do any thinkin' 'er researchin' on their own but have some blog that has been well funded by some rich fat cat who wants to put a mil;lion bucks into a PR staff to create a blog that the Bush apoligist only click on like a "Get Outta Jail Free" click...

Lotta that goin' 'round and it sucks...

Hey, I dopn't have a cluue what the perdentage of blogs out there are but if I* had to guess there's probably 10 right wionged to every progressive...

That's what I mean...

Lotta time's we're just gonna have to roll up our sleeeves and do then research. like I have done here...

But you know I loves ya and respects ya and you ain't gonna go do no long cut 'n run (paste) rebuttal...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 10:05 PM

I've thought about posting a thread called something like 'Katrina and Rita- Current Conditions' because I would like more information on what the situation is RIGHT NOW. Human beings tend to have short term responses and the need for help on the Gulf Coast is going to be going on for a very long time. We have to stay aware.

A Juneau friend of mine just got back from doing volunteer work down there for two weeks plus and he says that one can almost not describe it. He said it's like a hundred miles of mashed houses and not much of anything else. What are the people to go back to?

A man from Mississippi a week or so ago told me that those thousands of house trailers they brought down there came with no house keys...


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 03:19 PM

I am not in the destruction zone but close. Mississippi is overrun with carbetbaggers and scalawags once again. The scalawags are the local con artists who set about collecting multiple checks while real victims did without until the relief agencies stopped offering them.

The carpetbaggers are out-of-state corporations selling $30,000 trailers to FEMA for $80,000 and setting them up at a snails pace. Bechtel (headquartered in San Diego) has a huge sweetheart contract to send in trailers for people to live in. I see them come down the interstate every day, one at a time, from as far as oregon, driven by some guy in a very big shiny new pickup. They are dropped off in staging areas where they stay for weeks. Supposedly every day a few dozen more get sent to a site. Only after some other out-of-state folks have researched whether the home site is good enough and level enough. Some time later after repeated applications from people living in tents, the trailer may be delivered. Often it will sit there for weeks while arrangements are made for inspectors and electricians and plumbers to hook it up properly. FEMA will not allow people to just grab the units and set them up the best they can. They have to be set up like yer uncle luke's planned retirement community with the gravel beds and geraniums. They may require grading, etc. And yes, often it is finally set up and cleared for occupancy but the keys are missing.   

Meanwhile, less than 1% of the reconstruction work has gone to Mississippi companies, many of whom are struggling to survive. Our our trailer sales companies are selling to individuals but have lots full of trailers and mobile homes standing empty while people wait for FEMA to finally get its electricians around to hooking everybody up to their unit from Oregon. FEMA promised to rebid the big sweetheart contracts a month ago but hasn't lifted a finger. It also has rejected efforts by local house & apt landlords to help people get settled in outlying areas in real homes. It hurts to see all the empty trailers and homes knowing what people are going through.

On the coast, meetings have been held to try to do sweeping urban planning before anything substantial gets rebuilt, and zoning & building codes (such as "you have to raise your building 20' higher than x") are not done yet. New FEMA flood maps have been done and all rebuilding and mortgageing and insuring will have to work around them. So much rebuilding is just gonna be "on hold" for a long time. Many stores and restaurants on the margins have opened up, but find few can live and work in the area for $6 an hour with nowhere to stay. Debris clearing is done by some highly paid outsiders with the grunt work being contracted out to crews of illegal aliens who can hack $6 an hour while living in a tent.

Housing is in desperately short supply near ground zero, and 'investors' are snapping up both livable homes and destroyed coastal property. Locals are afraid as the months and years wear on more folks will have to sell out to big REITS who will build shiny new resort 'towns'.

In short, it ain't going real well. This area had few financial resources before KT and it will wind up even poorer than before. In a decade it will have a nicely rebuilt coast area, but the proceeds will have been funneled to California (home of Bechtel) or Florida or Connecticut.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 10:16 PM

So, looks like the Bush administration still don't get it????


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:03 PM

Thank you very much, Guest. What do the local newspapers say about the situation?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:15 PM

Looks like your great KatrinaGate expose is just a thread where everybody id just preaching to the choir Bobert. Enjoy.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Nov 05 - 11:24 PM

We are asking the choir for information, Teribus. If you don't understand that, you're in the wrong pew. Prolly even the wrong church.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:03 AM

I have been told by survivors of Isabel that one of the key problems has always been the way FEMA is structured. It is all about being on standby until local officials formally ask for help; they are officially 'second responders'. This does not work when all phones are out and towns have been destroyed and mayors have had to evacuate and the 'first responders' are busy trying to pull people off roofs.   

So to some extent the legal structure of FEMA was and is part of the problem. The other part is the people in charge were people like Brown.   Thank God for the Coast Guard which did not have to ask permission to operate in its own waters and shores and just went in and rescued people. And Thank God for private citizens and churches who just got their act together, found some fuel, and went to help. The only positive thing in this mess is the great help people have given their fellow man.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM

Well, it's real nice to see that the the Bush-heads, T-Head included, have no rebuttal to the Bush administration, includinmg Bush himself, failings in protecting the American people...

So much fir "My job is to protect the American people" crap that Bush loves to pump out his chest and proclaim...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM

Good post GUEST 18 Nov 05 - 09:03 AM, I agree entirely


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 08:45 PM

No, GUEST and T-Wrong, you are both wrong...

Reread the original post on this thread... Things have changed since the advent of the Department of Homeland Security... Yeah, you would have been corrct 5 years ago but you are both wrong now...

You all gotta keep up...

You might wanta Google "National Response Plan", GUEST, 09:03 and after you get it maybe T-Guessin' will get it as well but maybe not???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:26 PM

Yer doin a good job on yer Katrins Blog Bobert. Brownie couldn't have done any better. He couldn't figger out how many nuclear bombs can be made out of 1.77 tons of enriched youranium either so you two are on a par with each other.

Brownie is a miserable, whiney asshole too. Bush made a big mistake by making him head of FEMA.

Now can you give is a little history lesson on how FEMA got to be part of DHS? How did FEMA score before DHS gate?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 18 Nov 05 - 09:32 PM

"How did FEMA score before DHS gate?"

Real question here is how did four dozen search and rescue folks from Vancouver, Canada, get to just outside New Orleans and start doing their stuff before the head of FEMA knew anything was wrong?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Teribus
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 05:41 AM

The Federal Emergency Management Agency - a former independent agency that became part of the new Department of Homeland Security in March 2003 - is tasked with responding to, planning for, recovering from and mitigating against disasters.

In 2001, President George W. Bush appointed Joe M. Allbaugh as the director of FEMA. Within months, the terrorist attacks of Sept. 11th focused the agency on issues of national preparedness and homeland security, and tested the agency in unprecedented ways. The agency coordinated its activities with the newly formed Office of Homeland Security, and FEMA's Office of National Preparedness was given responsibility for helping to ensure that the nation's first responders were trained and equipped to deal with weapons of mass destruction.

Billions of dollars of new funding were directed to FEMA to help communities face the threat of terrorism. Just a few years past its 20th anniversary, FEMA was actively directing its "all-hazards" approach to disasters toward homeland security issues.

The above is taken from the 'History' section of the Official FEMA web site.

FEMA's origins go back as far as 1803. Subsequent to becoming part of the Department of Homeland Security it would appear that funding, resources and training were allocated to expand the role and capabilities of FEMA with regard to "security issues" As both Katrina and Rita were natural disasters, FEMA's procedures and mode of operation for such circumstances would apply, there was no terrorist threat, there were no 'security isues' so revamped procedures to address those circumstances would not automatically come into play. What would, was the Federal support role to State Authorities, and as GUEST pointed out, if state had not requested assistance before Katrina struck, they proved extremely difficult to contact after. The rescue folks from Vancouver, where not hindered in this same way.

Everyone thought that plans were in place, they were. Everyone thought that those plans were adequate, that proved to be incorrect, as the plan relied on there being some organisation/civil administration in place and functioning to liaise and co-ordinate with. In the case of Katrina there wasn't. Run on just a couple of weeks and Rita arrives, by this stage plans have been altered, the response was different, the storm did not impact a major centre of population and its affects were lessened. Learning by experience is what mankind has always had to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 08:42 AM

Keep studyin', T-Guesser.... Yer one the right etreet, just the wrong house...

(Major hint: Chain of Command..."

Ahhh, Old Guy....Yer not even on the right street... Okay, may the "right" street but not the correct street... Yeah, it was easy and convient fir Bush to sacrifice Brownie... I'm not sayin' the guy was Menza material here but I am sayin' that it wasn't his call to make... Hwe did what he was supposed to in allerting the White Hose and the President two full days before the storm hit and telling them it would land as a Category 4 or 5 storm...

The real question here is what did Bush do? And the second question here is what did Michael Chertoff do??? Or on both cases, what they didn't do...

(Major hint: "incident of national significance"...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM

I promised myself I would not respond to the feeble, unrealistic attempts to blame the Feds for the mess in New Orleans.
There was never a question concerning the Feds response. They were caught up in the lack of effort by the "first responders", local and LA state government, and had to organize a method from a thousand miles away on how to take care of a situation that they are normally not responsible for.

Two quotes from the opening post by Rep. Christopher Shays;

1. "when did you contact the President to say we have a catastophe happening with an incompetent Mayor and an incompetent Governor not responding....?"

2. ".......the mayor and the governor were not interacting with each other. And you basically had - even then, you wanted them to evacuate, right, on Friday?"

Bingo, my Ass!!!!!!! Even a member of the Congressional hearing acknowledged the fact that the Mayor and the Governor were incompetent boobs.

I am not going to ask for further facts because there are none. Were you aware that the President had to ask for the Governor to be removed from press conferences several times in the first couple days following the storms' passing? Here in the safe confines of my midwest estate, I had no reason to hear from the Governor while people were drowning in their homes


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: DougR
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 01:02 PM

I got a idea! Let's promote Bobert to head FEMA. I think he would do a bang-up job. After all, he has all the answers. And I think he should be allowed to pick his own crew of helpers here at the Mudcat. I'll bet they would whip that New Orleans mess in shape within a week.

Next stop: Bobert for President if he does that!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Naemanson
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 02:45 PM

I am NOT a Bush apologist. He is and will always be one of the worst presidents this country has ever had. He is the perfect reason why there should be a competency test for each presidential candidate.

But there are extenuating circumstances.

Having worked for the US government for nearly 30 years I have to point out that they are so blocked by bureaucratic bull that nothing is simple or easy. It really does take at least two and a half months to contract for construction type services if you follow the bidding regulations. That is no excuse for giving the contracts to your buddies but it does beg the question of how one can respond to emergencies.

So what happened with Katrina? Well, Brown didn't get involved right away because his schedule wasn't set up for a huge emergency even though they saw it coming. They probably all convinced themselves that the local officials could handle it. Nobody really talked to the locals. Then when it appeared that things were going south they had to get on the schedule with the White House. Then they had to figure out what to do.

Yes, there is a plan but it requires someone in the know to remember they have that plan. Generally the person in the know, in a Government organization, is not one of the yes-men near the top of that organization. So nobody thought to tell Brown that he could defer.

In the meantime, Bush was so busy with his little plans and screwups he didn't have time to worry about what was happening until someone (speaking accurately) played the race card. After all, 9/11 was a strike at the economic center of the US. The people who died there were business people (mostly). But New Orleans was just a bunch of poor blacks. He doesn't need to concern himself with them, they don't contribute to his campaign funding.

I'm getting away from my point. The bureaucracy that bogs down our Government is far reaching and insidious. It is damn near impossible to do anything quickly. Several years ago Gore tried to clean up the procurement system to make it easier to buy things and he did a good job. Under his leadership Government procurement began to use credit cards to make very small purchases (under $2,500). The use of sole source contracting was extended to contracts under $25,000. That sped up the system a little. But the large purchase process is still bogged down in lengthy approvals and long rationales for why we should not go with a competitive process. I would love to see the procurement records for the contracts that went to Halliburton in Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Nov 05 - 06:08 PM

No, Dougie, don't make me the head of FEMA unless yer willin' to roll the clock back where as head of FEMA I could act without having been so-ordered by the Secretary of GHomaland Security who is aewaitin' his marching orders from the president...

And GUEST A, you need to Google up National Response Plan... All the crap you are saying is just that: crap... It addresses situations where governors or mayors or police department 'or fire departments either can't responsd, or ****DON'T****!!! Waht don't you get about that???: How many time do I have to point that out to you before it sinks into yer bone-head???

Hey, I am not defendin' anu mayors, or governors here...

There was a plan in place for a Katrina that had nothing to do with the the mayor of governors./..

Yeah you can't get beyond yer finger pointing at those folks to see that the plan dealt exactly with such a scenerio such as what unfolded in the aftermath of Katerina...

The plan starts with the President instructing the Secretary of HS who then issues orderd to FEMA... This i8s the way the Bush asdminisration itself reorganized DHS and FEMA...

Brown did his job. Bush and Chertoff didn't...

Don't ven bother coming back and blame the governor... Or the mayor unless you have familiarized yourself with the way the oragnization chart was redrawn by the Bush folks...

See, I told you on another thread that you wouldn't do the researh because you either are lazy or you just find it entertainin' to say ignorant stuff but there you are doing exactly what I thought you would do which is very little in defending your position... Whatever yer position is???

Like, what is yer position???

Oh yeah, Brownie screwed up...

Hmmmmm? What he do wrong???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 08:59 PM

This here miserable thread has fell off the list so I thought I would revive it so Bobert could make an even bigger ass of hisself (if that is possible)

All this home work he was going to do turns out to be the same months old crap rehashed.

We need something fresh. Does anybody here live in or near NO and can attest to the corrupt government?

Another question not necessarily fresh. Does anybody remember seing the Gov Blanko being interviewed wherein she was asked just when she asked GWB to take over the National Gard and she said she did not even know what day it was?


Now the question Bobert can't answer: "Now can you give is a little history lesson on how FEMA got to be part of DHS? How did FEMA score before DHS gate?"

First of all GWB did not want the new DHS department. The Dems made a stink and GWB gave in. Then the dems deamded that FEMSA be incorporated into DHS. Bush did not want to but he finally gave in to the Dems.

Were there any complaints about FEMS before it was put under FEMA? I havent heard any.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 09:29 PM

So, what is yer point, Old Guy????

Yeah, Bush didn't want a DHS but he got one... And he appointed one of his buds to be the 1st Secretary...

And appointed another to be the 2nd...

Hey, Old Guy, I can't fir the life of me figure out why any Bush apologist would revive this thread???

Bottom line, Bush had to accept a DPH but that's what CEO's do. Boards of Directotrs occasionally throw in something that needs for the CEO to be flexible and creative...

Have you ever heard of the "National Repsonse Plan", Old Guy??? I doubt you have... Well, you might wanta research it before comin' in here with yer usual stink bombs... It's part of yer guy's overall policy... Not mine...

Yeah, it makes references to disasters like Katrina...

Oh, BTWm it yer guy who has run around the country saying dumbass stuff like "Hey, it's my job to protect Americans."

So lets do a little review here, Old Guy...

First, Bush accepts the DHS

Second, he accepts the National Response Plan

Third, when the time comes for it to be implimented, he's AWOL...

What exactly have I missed here, pal???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 09:57 PM

Bobert, I can't decide if you are a rabble rouser, a drama queen or just plain naive. I migh go with the drama queen title..

The question is have you ever looked at the National Response plan?

In every aspect of it, the stipulation is that the first responders, read local and state government here, are responsible for the for the first evacuation and rescue attempts. Don't you think it might be a little late for someone to respond from a 1000 miles away.

If you find this to not be to your liking, then please quote us the section and paragraph from the National Response plan that dictates otherwise. It could be there but my copy doesn't reflect it.

Gently putting the ball back in your court.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:09 PM

You have missed everything anybody else did or didn't do that contributed to the disaster except for Bush.

You like others do not have the ability to take evertything into consideration when assigning blame. The common term is scapegoating.

You are pissed off and you look for one person that is the root of the evil.

Some women do it to their husbands. Some kids do it to their parents.

In all it makes you sound like an anarchist. Where is your broad thinking? You are narrowminded and this gives you a bad attitude which you express here.

Wake up. It's a mean old world and you are not going to make it go your way. Try being upbeat. Enjoy living in the best nation on earth.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:14 PM

If you look under the heading "State, Local and Tribal Governments" which is in the Table of Contents iii, Roles and Responsibilities, you will not that when State or Local Governments are overwhelmed, they may request Federal assistance. The Governor of Louisiana did that. The help was over five days coming, because FEMA didn't know what the hell was going on, and Bush was playing guitar in California.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:31 PM

Thank you, Bruce, fir the assist... I have over a hundred pages run thru my printer with all that stuff but it's nice not having to go thru each page again...

This is the point I've made over abnd over but these knothead Bushites jsut want to say stuff like "life is good" and leave it at that...;

Sure, life is good... I have provided GUEST A a source to find out just how good my life is but yet, when I point out the4 dfriggin' truth to either GUEST A or Old Guy, all I get is "Life is good and yer wro9ng, Bobert" crap throwed back at me...

Weell, it's like arguin' with a couple friggin' retards, as far as I can see it... The two of them don't have 'nuff I.Q. points to take on a box of animal crackers...

They say the same dumbass stuff over and over and over like it's true????

Freud would have a field day with these two...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:33 PM

The key peice of information is WHEN did Blanco ask Bush to take it over.

Bush asked her at least once if she wanted the Feds to take over. She said at least once that she needed 24 hours to decide.

Why don't you do some reading and gather some facts before you make assertions?

My post of 10:09 is directed at Bobert.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM

Hey, Old Guy, I did the research, which is more than I can say for you. Read the following and weep. Then go read for general information and knowledge. I seem to know more about your country than you do.http://www.snopes.com/katrina/politics/blanco.asp


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:38 PM

"Why don't you do some reading and gather some facts before you make assertions?"

Gee, I wish I'd said that.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:40 PM

Like how many pages have you run thru yer printer on Katrina research, Old Guy? I've got a file that's a half inch thick and countin'.... Well over a 100 pages of stuff, all related to Katrina...

Based on the National Response Plan, Blanco was a non-entity... Or should have been...

Brown reported directly to the president on Saturday that the governor and mayor were in over their heads....

(See Brown's congressional testimony)

... that ************should**************** have triggered a top-down response.

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Nov 05 - 10:52 PM

Sorry, Bruce, I missed yer Part B....

Yeah, I agree 100%... I came into this thread havin' read about everything I could find irregardless of the slant...

Then you get these two knotheads who are either just making sh*t up or are gettin' sh*t that is made up for them from some Bushite blog and it's, quite frankly, purdy danged pathetic...

Like no critcal thought what so ever...

None...

Hey, the easy way would fir me to defend the locals but, hey, they were in over their heads and that is exactly what the National Response Plan is supposed to be all about....

Don't matter if Bush likes the DHS or not... He is the CEO and this was part of his job description and he blew it!!!!

Brownie did his job...

Bush blew the heck outta his...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:01 AM

Bobert, do you remember, in your post, where Rep. Shays referred to the Mayor and the Governor as incomptents?

Still waiting for an answer as to where in the NPR does it say that state responders are local and state people. The Governor is out of the picture?????????? quoting you.

This is not worth my time. You act like a bully hoping that people, which I have noticed some do, will accept your diatribe. a 100 pages of what? Really impressive! Not!....I don't care for this method of discussion, am used to it on a personal basis.

So, will depart for a while, not giving up but just utilizing my time better. This type of corresponding would be fine for houebound people but good serious discussions are better done and more fun when face to face. Plus, I see your approach is one of putdown which is the format of a bully and one who doesn't have a clear grasp of the situation. This format is not my cup of tea - it would appear to be a type for those who are introverted or can not handle face to face reality. Later.............
By the way, I have a copy of the National Response plan and I did not have to go through 100 pages to ascertain responsibility factor.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 05:07 AM

By the way Peace, did you really read all the info in that link you posted?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 10:26 AM

Deal with the facts. I owe you no answer other than the one I gave. Nothing personal, but I do not like you. I find you to be a self-satisfied ego lookin' for a place to happen. I don't care for your politics, your attitude or your presumptions. Whether or not I read all the info does not detract from what I drew attention to. Love it or shove it fellow.

You do not deal with facts when they disagree with your view of things. Such is your right. It is my right not to want to deal with you. Address the issue in future. Do not address me.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 03:26 PM

Thank you Peace.

What seems to have been lost in the shuffle is that there are times when first responders CAN'T GET A PHONE LINE OUT. And yes, I think FEMA should have had a plan for such an eventuality, not Tickfaw County, Louisiana. Nobody's local Plan said "whenever all land lines and satellite towers are out for a radius of 200 miles, then we'll go to the closet and get 50 satellite phones out and drive them across timber-strewn roads, so each litttle burgs with destruction can call Washington". Because no, one call from the governor doesn't do it. Then FEMA still hangs fire and says, well, if you tell us in detail exactly what you need, and exactly where, we'll see what we can do. Mississippi at least had a MEMA that had half a clue and directed aid as best it could, but the system is still screwy.

We have an national emergency response agency that we pay for. When a CAT 5 is headed for our shores, that agency needs to know what to do and mobilize massive help regardless of how corrupt the local governments are. IF IT CAN'T, then it should get out of the federal budget and leave us to our own local devices. Spontaneous response from local heroes and merciful people and organizations went a LONG way to handling this crisis. We need to stop letting Homeland Security suck up these dollars to misdirect help.

Passed through Gulfport this week, so much damage, yet the Corps and jillions of volunteers and workers have cleared the streets of a mountain range of debris. Plenty of misery but plenty of contractor crews working their butts off rehanging walls and doing roofs. Stretches where every roof that is not gone is blue. Guys camping out in car lots, truck stops, biker bar yards. National Guard guarding access to every block of the worst zones with miles of looped razor wire to keep looters from roaming around.

Lots of people trying to reclaim their busted frame houses, doing what they can. It looks more like a miner's camp than a war zone now. Lots of work in the air, lots of work ahead. Hope and pray.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Nov 05 - 08:04 PM

Ditto to what Peace said, GUEST A... You accuse others of exactly what you do when you ahve been boxed into a corner by yer own danged ignorance of issues...

Hey, I gave a you a choice of issues where you thought Bush was doing a good job. It came down to Katrina... Then I give you my stuff and you sandbag for a couple weeks and then now you say that you don't want to discuss stuff no more because I am bullying you???

What a joke...

Yeah, GUEST, thanks fir the description... I've also heard from P-Gator who has been back to his house in N. O. and the stories are very similar...

I heard someone say, maybe on PBS, that there's no way to adequately describe what it's lie to be in N.O.'s... I'm sure that is true...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 10:27 AM

Peace, you are accusing others of being like yourself.
"Nothing personal, but I don't like you". Well, that is a strange way of putting it. I don't believe I like you either and that would have to be considered personal.

Guest, the phone lines were fine the 3 days BEFORE the storm hit which was the time the evacuation should have be enforced.

I give the Governor of LA props for one thing she did after realizing she was in over her head and didn't have a clue, and that was to bring a former FEMA head to run things in the state. GWBs' biggest error was not to have declared martial law a couple days before Katrina hit after the Governor demostrated she was so wish-washy. "Well, give me 24 hours to think about it" A quote from her.

Bobert, was this P-Gator fellow in NO for the 5 days after Katrina hit? ANd, not remember where your info came from "I think it was PBS", isn't good enough. We must be sure of our sources. However, if they said what you alluded to, they are correct. And I am not sand bagging on the 'stuff' you brought forth - it just isn't good enough.

I am here to say that I am sure the city of NO can not be brought back to a pre-Katrina status.
I am also here to say that the true facts of what happened prior and after Katrina will not be known for a long, long time.
Will we all be able to admit our hits and misses on the story when the facts do come out? Should be interesting, don't you think?


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 11:06 AM

Personal or not, A, I think you're an ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,A
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 01:00 PM

Nice retort, Peace, if that was your intention. Every one to his own opinion. Ah, there's that 'O' word again.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:48 PM

"Nice retort, Peace, if that was your intention. Every one to his own opinion. Ah, there's that 'O' word again."

Well, at last we understand each other.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 02:55 PM

I think ur an ass peace.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 05:10 PM

Like who really cares, GUEST A, where I heard it??? I spend a lot of time in my truck switching stations... I really doesn't matter one danged bit where I heard it...

Tell ya what, if you want a source wait a couple days and P-Gator will have his pudder up and he'll tell ya' the same thing... He sat right here in my house and used the words surreal...

But really, I have no idea why this statement would ruin yer whole Thanksgiving???

You are a hypersensitive person... Next thing you'll be on me fir my spellin' and typin'...

Does this make you fell all warm and fuzzy inside???

Pick yer battles, pal... It's not chizzleed in stone that every thing anyone says here needs to be attacked...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: Peace
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 05:21 PM

"I think ur an ass peace."

You would, chickenshit.


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Subject: RE: BS: KatrinaGate...
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 23 Nov 05 - 08:46 PM

actually frontline did an excellent analysis of Katrina and the various failures..
frontline the storm

interesting points: Fema became a bit of a backwater in the 80's and presidents tended to park their political buddies with no experience in Fema. (with the Exception of James Lee Witt - a Clinton appointee, incidentally praised by George W. in the pres. debates) Witt was the only appointee with actual emergency planning background, and was able to Fema around and make it much more effective and responsive, with a focus on prevention.)

interesting also is the interview with TOM RIDGE, when asked why
there still no interoperability (in communications). his response is that its being worked on but the Federal govt. is not going to be pushed into picking a vendor and deciding on a system..

total baloney.. the fed govt. sets standards on airports, bridges, roads, harbours etc. they provide the funding not only should they set
standards, they should demand accountability..
some states got money from DHS and spent it on bulletproof vests for dogs etc because the money was there.

and TERIBus who in another thread says we should plan for the worst (in assuming Saddams wmds) .. how about planning for the worst hurricane (and anyone living in New Orleans, knew that it was quite possible the levees could fail, as they did in 1927)..

funny that Brown as well as all the other emergency planners rehearsed with a hurrican PAM in 2004 (a simulation which predicted almost exactly what Katrina did) did they learn anything..

you have to wonder about Browns comments on 'being like a fashion God' for his interviews, and email response to one of his workers when she
said we need help people are dying here!
ok let me know if there anything I should do or Tweak.
Brown..


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