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BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots

zelger 04 Nov 05 - 10:57 AM
mandotim 04 Nov 05 - 11:37 AM
zelger 04 Nov 05 - 11:57 AM
Bunnahabhain 04 Nov 05 - 12:58 PM
mandotim 04 Nov 05 - 01:59 PM
Ebbie 04 Nov 05 - 02:21 PM
dianavan 05 Nov 05 - 12:40 AM
JennyO 05 Nov 05 - 10:13 AM
Kaleea 05 Nov 05 - 03:37 PM
GUEST 05 Nov 05 - 07:57 PM
dianavan 05 Nov 05 - 11:07 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 05 - 07:41 AM
greg stephens 06 Nov 05 - 11:53 AM
dianavan 06 Nov 05 - 01:05 PM
GUEST 06 Nov 05 - 01:48 PM
greg stephens 06 Nov 05 - 01:57 PM
dianavan 06 Nov 05 - 02:44 PM
greg stephens 06 Nov 05 - 06:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 06 Nov 05 - 07:06 PM
artbrooks 06 Nov 05 - 07:53 PM
dianavan 06 Nov 05 - 09:33 PM
zelger 07 Nov 05 - 04:02 AM
Paco Rabanne 07 Nov 05 - 04:26 AM
Gurney 07 Nov 05 - 04:58 AM
GUEST,uptout 07 Nov 05 - 06:42 AM
Piers 07 Nov 05 - 07:00 AM
zelger 07 Nov 05 - 07:16 AM
Piers 07 Nov 05 - 07:38 AM
Bunnahabhain 07 Nov 05 - 08:58 AM
Donuel 07 Nov 05 - 09:10 AM
Essex Girl 07 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM
Wolfgang 07 Nov 05 - 09:55 AM
GUEST,Laurent 07 Nov 05 - 10:13 AM
Wolfgang 07 Nov 05 - 10:44 AM
Piers 07 Nov 05 - 12:02 PM
NH Dave 07 Nov 05 - 06:15 PM
Piers 08 Nov 05 - 04:56 AM
DavidHannam 08 Nov 05 - 05:02 AM
Piers 08 Nov 05 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,David Hannam 08 Nov 05 - 07:53 AM
Donuel 08 Nov 05 - 02:42 PM
Jimmy C 08 Nov 05 - 03:50 PM
Piers 08 Nov 05 - 04:17 PM
Keith A of Hertford 09 Nov 05 - 05:14 AM
GUEST,sorefingers 09 Nov 05 - 06:12 AM
Bunnahabhain 09 Nov 05 - 08:18 AM
Piers 09 Nov 05 - 08:30 AM
dianavan 09 Nov 05 - 08:36 PM
Bob Bolton 10 Nov 05 - 02:34 AM
Paco Rabanne 10 Nov 05 - 03:53 AM
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Subject: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: zelger
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 10:57 AM

Are these immigrant riots? If so what has caused them? is this another nail in coffin of diverse societies?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: mandotim
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 11:37 AM

Right wing troll alert; do not feed!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: zelger
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 11:57 AM

I hardly think asking awkward questions are 'troll'. You either agree or disagree? if you think the media is being too quick to call them 'immigrant riots' then that is all i asked.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 12:58 PM

They seem to be riots in a number of poor communities, who are poorly intergrated with the rest of society.

The fact these communities are composed mainly of immigrants and their descendents is not the primary cause of these riots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: mandotim
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 01:59 PM

Sorry if I misinterpreted your motives zelger; I suppose I was misled by the fact that almost all your posts are about subjects close to the heart of the far right, and seem to keep threads going long after their natural usefulness. Posted comments like 'fuck liberalism' are also open to misinterpretation I guess.

I was also confused by the fact that all the media reports I've seen didn't use the term 'immigrant riots'. The first time I saw this was when you kindly pointed it out to us. I assume we must read/watch different media sources.

Once again, my most profound apologies, and thank you for the short personal message you took the trouble to send.

Tim


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Ebbie
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 02:21 PM

According to last night's news, there is 30% unemployment in their district- with no prospect of relief. (no pun intended) In the USA conditions like that have frequently brought on riots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 12:40 AM

Exactly, Ebbie, put enough unemployed people in a ghetto and then 'accidently' kill a couple of their youngsters and you're sure to get some kind of reaction.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: JennyO
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 10:13 AM

A couple of days ago, my son sent me a link to several stories on this, here - Fresh violence hits Paris suburbs .

It is of particular interest to us because my brother happens to live in one of the affected suburbs - Aulnay Sous Bois. I immediately rang him to make sure he and his family were all right, and they are. He said it's a long suburb from end to end, and they live at the 'good end' fortunately for them. The other end is basically a slum area.

Reading the articles, it appears this is something which has been brewing for some time because of poverty and discrimination, and the incident where the youths were killed was the catalyst which set off the riots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Kaleea
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 03:37 PM

JennyO-Thanks for the article. I've seen a couple of incomplete news reports the riots broke out, rioting continues with no explanation of why the riots started. I do not opine pro or con as to "sides" of the issue as I do not live there & do not know the situation well enough.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:57 PM

"put enough unemployed people in a ghetto"

That's the problem. They are not put in a ghetto, they choose to create one. It happened in my city as house upon house was bought by immigrant families of the same faith and culture for their offspring or relatives until the indigenous population totally disappeared. The English have done it to other countries as it has been done to them. It seems that's how people prefer to live rather than to be scattered and assimilated. Then the young grow up and claim their area is a no go area for the young of other immigrant or indigenous cultures and you end up with the mess we have in Europe that will surely get worse.
How you stop this polarisation I can't think. Many of my family emigrated many years ago to New Zealand and were told where they had to live for the first few years, and in this way the immigrant population was stopped from forming ghettos.
What the answer is today I don't know, but we have to face the fact that we have a problem that the old ideologies can't address.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 11:07 PM

"put enough unemployed people in a ghetto" is not quite the right expression, I agree. Maybe its because the only places that immigrant people can afford to live, are the poorest parts of town. I think people who have similar backgrounds do find security with others who share a common language, customs and beliefs and therefore like to live within reach. I have also noticed that once they become established and gain affluence, they move out of their old neighborhoods as fast as possible.

Lets not forget, France made a law forbidding school girls from covering their heads, according to their religion. That in itself, could be seen as oppressive. I'm sure if France would go so far as to forbid scarves, the society is capable of all kinds of discrimination. Isn't this recent riot really about discrimination?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:41 AM

I totally support the french in their attempt to keep religion out of public life. it is the cause of all our woes and wars, and I'm afraid Blair's attempts to allow schools to be run on religious lines will only bring us more woes in the future. If only we could keep our religious beliefs in our churches and our homes, or better still, just in our hearts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 11:53 AM

Dianavan: I know it seems superficially an example of wicked discrimination to forbid people to wear scarves ober their head at school if they wish to, and that is indeed what they do in France,. But I think you would do well to consider the background to this kind of decision, and look at the miseries unleashed in France in the past caused by religiois and political differneces. If you look at this, I think you would begin to see there might be some reason for banning religious and political unifiorms in schools.
    Just the same thing happened in England in the 30's, when the specific problems of the Mosley's fascists in ondon lead to the banning of political uniforms. And of course people said it was a wicked denial of human rights telling people they couldn't wear black shirts. Well, yes it is, and no it isn't. There is a context to these things, isnt there? Obe person walking into a shop who happens to wear a black shirt. Not a problem. Hundreds of people marching through the East End of London in black shirts chanting "We've got to get rid of the Yids": big problem.
    The French went for a fairly draconic "no religious uniforms in schools" policy, as the British went for a "no political uniform" policy. I think you are being simplistic just to dismiss these actions as unfair discrimination. I think you can see where the authorities were coming from, if you think about it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 01:05 PM

greg - There is a great deal of difference between political uniforms and religious dress.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 01:48 PM

Not a great deal of difference really. Both are visual methods of making a point, of saying "I belong, you do not", and that is divisive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 01:57 PM

Not a great deal of difference that you can define in laws or morality. A group of people wearing an identifying uniform can be intimidating, or they can be just picturesque(ehtnic dancers, Boy Scouts). The context is the problem. Crusaders with crosses on were wearing religious uniforms, weren't they?. You'd still be well advised to hide in the hills if you saw them coming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 02:44 PM

Yes, greg, I would have hid from the Crusaders but I still don't think that is the same as school girls wearing scarves. You are absolutely right when you say that it depends on the context. Why would anyone be intimidated by girls wearing scarves?

In Canada, even our R.C.M.P. are allowed to wear their Sikh headresses. In school, the boys also keep their hair covered. Yes, it identifies them as part of a religious group. So what? Christians wear crosses, too. Our Muslim girls also wear scarves. I don't see it as a problem.

The problem is discrimination against a religous minority.

Therefore, the riots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: greg stephens
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 06:50 PM

We have racial problems in a local school here. No, the white boys are not going to be allowed to come into school with St George's Crosses painted on their faces. Yes, this is discriminatory. Yes, it does infringe on their religious rights. But they are still not going to be allowed to. And a good thing too. there is no absolute right to wear religious uniforms in a tense situation. It may be fine where you are, it doesnt make it fine everywhere.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:06 PM

Lets not forget, France made a law forbidding school girls from covering their heads, according to their religion.

And let us not forget that certain middle-eastern countries banned the drinking of alcohol, according to their religion. The biggest difference between them and the French is that the French do not stone, flog or maim the people who do not comply to their laws.

And before you say that the drinking of alcohol is not a religious practice remember that the drinking of wine is a central part of any Christian communion service.

Ask the mad Mullahs if they would grant any dispensation for that before you brand the French discriminatory.

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: artbrooks
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 07:53 PM

I heard an article on NPR this evening that said that one of the problems was that France has a strict law against keeping any statistics on the basis of race or ethnicity. This apparently prevents them from tracking unemployment in specific groups and identifying/targeting other problems that mey be unique to them.   Go here and click on "listen."


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Nov 05 - 09:33 PM

Dave - The last I checked, the drinking of alcohol was forbidden in most schools, regardless of religion. Hardly a comparison to banning head scarves. Same goes for painting St. George's cross on your face, Greg. Since when was this a religious custom? Neither of these examples can be compared to banning little girls from wearing scarves to school.

Lets face it, thats an abuse of power and only the tip of the iceberg when it comes to other forms of discrimination. I used it as an example to show that if the 'authorities' can get away imposing those kind of petty rules, imagine what other discrimination religious minorities must be facing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: zelger
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:02 AM

So, are the rioters right to riot then?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:26 AM

No.Shoot the buggers!


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Gurney
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 04:58 AM

Until some accurate information is received from someone who lives there, this is what was reported in the NZ press, from memory.
The French authorities have banned obvious religious symbols in schools, including covered faces, headscarves, and large crucifixes. If crucifixes are also banned, then how is discriminatory?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,uptout
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 06:42 AM

Crucifixes are indeed also banned. It is a religious custom to wear a crucifix just as it is to wear a headscarf. This was not a discriminatory measure; quite the opposite. The theory is that the younger and more noticably societies distinguish themselves along religious lines (and lets be honest, it is likely to be parents rather than the schoolchildren themselves who are militant about the right to wear headscarves in schools) the more impossible it makes it that societies will properly manage to integrate. There is not, and never could be, an absolute right for everybody to wear what they want in a place like a school.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 07:00 AM

Religion or ethnicity is not the main issue, it is poverty. The centralised political structure and localised extremes of poverty in the 'projects' means that political alleviation of their condition is impossible. Unemployment and minimal wage unskilled employment means that alleviating their condition through collective action in the workplace is difficult. So it should not be a surprise that they resort to rioting. I think it will either blow over or be crushed by the police or military, then the government will congratulate themselves on restoring 'order' whilst diverting funds to the affected areas to appease them and quell any further disturbances.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: zelger
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 07:16 AM

Yes Piers, but are they right to riot?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 07:38 AM

I'm not sure a questions about right and wrong are particularly useful. I would like to think that in the same situation I would still advocate peaceful political means to achieve democratically agreed aims, but then I haven't led quite a such a brutal life and had more opportunity to read and stuff.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 08:58 AM

Hijab is the Arabic term used to describe the attire worn by Muslim women.    The literal meaning of Hijab is 'covering', but this term also carries a more general connotation of 'modesty'. Hijab as a social practise thus embraces not only clothing but also values and behaviour.

The word Hijab is often mistranslated as the 'veil', which implies covering of the face and this is misleading. Although Hijab can involve the covering of a woman's face, most Muslims do not regard this to be essential.


Full thing at Source: Muslim Concil of Great Britian

So, this ban on the wearing of the head

The French law, which bans large crosses, Jewish skull caps, Sikh turbans, as well as Muslim headscarves, will go into effect in September. The President of France has indicated that he would like to see a similar ban for employees in public hospitals and government positions.

Source- International coalition for religious freedom


So, a girl affected by this ban may feel that it leaves her under-dressed, but only by the very strictist possible interpretaition of the rules. It can only be a sign of a group of people failing to intergrate into the larger society that this is such an issue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 09:10 AM

Religion/ethnicity is not the main issue, it is poverty. ???
...................

It is both.

The Mulsims want a seperate community with their own laws, but they also want all the benefits of citizens who obey the state laws.
This is also true in the Netherlands, Germany ...
Assimilation is anathma to Islamic law.

This conflict is of course compounded by poverty and teenage energy and hormones.

Until there is a freedom from religion, these conflicts will be part of the landscape.

ergo it is forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Essex Girl
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 09:12 AM

We have had problems in English schools over the "rights" to wear religious clothing, but when your children attend secondary schools, in most cases there is a uniform code, and you agree to abide by that code. If you wish to wear alternative clothing then find a school that will allow it, after all school uniform was introduced to equalise students from all backgrounds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 09:55 AM

As to the first question whether these are immigrant riots, it is worse than that: these are offspring (often second generation) of immigrant riots. That shows that the problem has been ignored for a very long time. What Artbrooks has mentioned about the statistics has helped the government (but not only them) to remain blind for too long.

Of course, it is about economic disadvantage and hopelessness as the main factors. Joblessness can be said sarcastically to be a 'hereditary disease' in these ghettos. But if the dividing line is not only defined by economics but also by origin, culture, religion and ethnic background then the riots usually becomes more violent. That economical disadvantage is not the only motivation of the rioters was shown clearly by the words of one of the youths being interviewed: Baghdad lies in Paris tonight.

Regarding the creation of ghettos: I don't know how it happens in France but I know how it happens in Germany. They are put there and they create it. In an already poor neighbourhood the rents are not very high and the houses are bad. You can get twice (or even more) as much rent as a house owner if you put 9 male Turkish workers into a three-room flat instead of a German family of 2+2. The other house owners see this with envy and greed and each time a German family leaves for whatever reason they increase the rent that much that only a large number of foreign workers together can pay.

With 9 young males in a three-room flat and a house owner with an eye to short-term profit and not to maintenance the houses and the neighbourhood get worse and worse. When the houses are really bad they are sold. The, say, Turkish workers by now have saved some money and some can afford to buy the houses. At this point, the neighbourhood actually improves. New shops and pubs run by Turkish people are created. The neighbourhood gets attractive for newly arrived Turkish people and some Germans (academics with no kids) who like that atmosphere.

People from such neighbourhoods rarely get jobs (like, in a completely different context, in Belfast, the employers don't have to ask for your background, they just know it when you tell them your address) for a variety of reasons. In Germany, the main reason is lack of knowledge of the language. Many of the youths from the ghettos have a worse education than youths from other parts of the town and have no future on the job market. They are disillusioned and have nothing to lose. That's a situation in which just any incident (or rumour) may start a riot.

What they have in France now could happen in other parts of Europe as well. It is the product of a failed policy of integration. Self-chosen segregation and rejection by the majority culture are the ingredients to which government inactivity is added.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,Laurent
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 10:13 AM

Try this article here .

It's really difficult for us, French, to know what is actually going on, because TVnews are looking like propaganda and .
There is no African rebellion nor open ethnic war. Riots are very localized. Yerterday Clichy mayor told that the riots took place on onre or two plots (100 meters around one or two cross-roads)and the rest of the town was calm. Most of the resident heard about the troubles on radio. Some say that policemen keeped up the troubles by telling racial insults, firing a tear gas grenade as muslims were praying and calling whores the women rushing out. It's quite impossible to verify. Burning cars has become a favourite game in some city suburbs. Especially on December 31th in Strasbourg and my hometown Le Havre.

Troubles are caused mainly by underage people at loose end, hanging around until 2 or 3AM. Some are drug dealers who consider police as just another gang.

The excuses were the two guys'death in Clichy and French "ministre de l'Intérieur" (I can't remember the term in English or American for the secretary in charge of police) naming them 'racaille' which both means thug and rabble. It has nothing to do with religion (some of the thugs are white christian youngsters)

Of course, finding a job when you leave in these suburbs is difficult, all the more so that you leave in those suburbs. Its'far worse if your name sounds Arabic or your skin is black. Such riots won't make things better.

I can hardly believe there's more violence in France than other European countries or the USA. No more, no less..

France is not Tchetchenia nor Iraq. Keep your mind at rest, you can still come and visit us. Despite you'll find no tanks in our towns or cities, they are reasonably safe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Wolfgang
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 10:44 AM

What's wrong with Europe? (from DER SPIEGEL)

Social divisions in today's French society run along ethnic and religious lines, and they also signify deep cultural rifts....
The strict separation of church and state, a sacrosanct pillar of French government, has become an illusion. Jihad may not be what's inspiring the rioters, but Islam is undeniably an inseparable component of their self-identity. Islam strengthens their sense of solidarity, gives them the appearance of legitimacy and draws an unmistakable line between them and the others, the "French."


The more peaceful cousin:

Cyber rioting in France (from DER SPIEGEL)

"You don't really think that we're going to stop now? Are you stupid? It will continue, non-stop. We aren't going to let up. The French won't do anything and soon, we will be in the majority here."

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 12:02 PM

This here piece has some good background on the riots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: NH Dave
Date: 07 Nov 05 - 06:15 PM

It seemes to me that the comment from one or two youth of the rioting district, "It's fun to burn cars . . . " gets to the point of the rioting from the minority's viewpoint. I see the whole thing as a dumb reaction to something the two boys brought on themselves, especially as they were trespassing on/in the electrical power control box, when they managed to electrocute themselves.

There are reasons for the large danger signs, the fences, and the locked gates. These places are dangerous for the uninitiated, and the authorities do what they can to keep others out of these places.

The other thing I don't understand is why they are rioting in their own neighborhoods, burning their flats and automobiles. If they want to bring attention to their plight, which seemes to me to be be self induced, then they should be burning other people's homes and cars.

Dave


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:56 AM

Good report at wikipedia.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: DavidHannam
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 05:02 AM

I am inclined to think that the police were certainly, but recent recounts at least, not to blame. Identity check is a very normal happening, and in fact happened to me when in France recently.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 06:51 AM

You should have stayed there. You and Clichy-sous-bois cops would get on like a car on fire.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,David Hannam
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 07:53 AM

haha. no i couldn't stomach the toll motorway fees. incredible. i'd riot just for those alone :-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Donuel
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 02:42 PM

Removal of ethinic neigborhoods/ghettos in NYC was carried out by Robert Moses putting major transportation progects through them.
Also those properties are cheap to seize by emminent domain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Jimmy C
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 03:50 PM

Essex Girl is quite right. The idea of school uniforms originated to identify the school, so as the school could be contacted if any student misbehaved or even did a good deed. It was also a symbol of pride in one's school, especially if the school had a historic, or good reputation to uphold.
In later years it prevented some students from attending class in the latest trendiest expensive designer clothing, whereas students from families that could not afford the latest styles would not feel embarassed. The uniforms are an identity/equalization instrument. I am sure this was explained to the emigrant students and if they do not want to abide by the rules of the school, then go to another school. Period.
I guarantee that any french student attending school in a mid-east/ african country would have to abide by the standards set by the school or else they would face some kind of disciplinary action.
I also do not go for the poverty angle either, in almost all cases, any family that is able to leave a third world for whatever reason, are normally quite well off, otherwise they could not afford to leave in the first place. Many of these immigrant families I am sure had servants etc in the respected homelands. When they get to a new land and find they are all on a level playing field, their lives are changed and some cannot accept that. They feel the new land owes them something , they feel like they should be able to live like they did in the old country, well, sorry NO. Get out an work like everyone else, there are no free rides anywhere anymore.
Of course rioting etc takes the focus away from the real problem, they just don't want to assimilate, they just don't want to have to start over, they just don't want to do what emigrants have been doing for hundreds of years, that is get started somewhere and work your way up without relying on the state for hand outs.

We have a similar situation here in Canada, almost daily the shootings in Toronto are blamed on poverty and disheartened youths who have no money and nothing to do. And yet on a daily basis I pass store after store with advertisements in the window looking for staff. These people only make up a small percentage of their own society and race, Many other youths from similar backgrounds and just as poor but do not go around rioting and shooting, instead they get part-time jobs, they attend school and one day they will reap the benefits while the others will still be complaining about this, that and the other.
If I was the president of France I would go on T.V. and give the message loud and clear. rioters will be hosed with water cannon, will be sprayed with tear gas, will be charged and sentenced and NOT BE treated with rubbber gloves, and at the very next opportunity make good on the warnings,
Can you just imagine what would happen to a bunch of french citizens, living in Somalia or some other similar place if they took to the streets burning and rioting, They would be locked up and the key thrown away.
I am an immigrant myself and I know first hand what it is like to go to another country,, with no job, no friends and almost no money so I am not altogether unsympathetic to their plight, but they don't have the right to burn, riot and cause the damsge that is a nightly thing now in France. The fact that it has spread from town to town, appears very much like the rioting etc is in fact deliberate, planned , and ordered from one source.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 08 Nov 05 - 04:17 PM

Jimmy C, nice post - empathetic without moralising, sympathetic yet remaining objective, and based on firm-evidence too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 05:14 AM

Sorry to paste this in, but I can not find the source.
It is from an Australian publication, and has some relevance.


"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT

"I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.

"Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the politically correct crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia.
However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and our national identity.

"As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle. This culture has been developed over centuries of struggles, trials, and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the Language!

"In God We Trust" is our National Motto. This is not some Christian, right wing, political slogan. We adopted this motto because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented.

(note this does not exclude Jews, Muslims or any other theist religion anyway)

"It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools.

If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture. If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like 'A Fair Go, then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from.

This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our National Motto, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you to take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'".


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: GUEST,sorefingers
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 06:12 AM

The 'freepers' and American righwing organisation has for several years been complianing about the EU, about Europe, about France and about liberalism in the world.

Not only have they pushed the USA into sending CIA and other operatives into Europe to topple the EU, which it appears they have almost succeeded in, now using American Mooooslem yeaboys they are working on creating a civil war in France.

I wonder if it ever occured to their atrophied brains that this violence may end up here in the USA?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 08:18 AM

sorefingers, have you noticed people are blinking alot more?

Yes, the USA sent a huge number of agents of all kinds to Europe. There's the NSA at Menworth hill, the Air force everywhere, the Army in Germany, and rather alot in graves everywhere between here and Berlin.

Why assume that the US intelligence agencies are resonsible for all that's wrong with Europe? I've not even heard that from the most rabidly anti-american wing of the Liberal Democrats. The French are more than capable of getting themselves into a state like this without any outside help. Cock-up is always a simpler explanation than conspiricy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Piers
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 08:30 AM

Earlier this year Amnesty International compiled a report entitled, FRANCE, THE SEARCH FOR JUSTICE, The effective impunity of law enforcement officers in cases of shootings, deaths in custody or torture and ill-treatment.

It is available on their website, with a press release and case studies.

Amnesty's yearly report on France is also available, as well as case   studies from 2003. Further resources are available in their online library.


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: dianavan
Date: 09 Nov 05 - 08:36 PM

Keith -

Just how long would you give an immigrant to learn how to speak English?


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 02:34 AM

G'day Keith A of Hertford,

That drivel you regugitated has been running round the Australian e-mail circuit for a few months now ... but is - quite obviously - from the language and the unnoticing American assumptions - a 'retreaded' American piece.

It has never been sourced to any "Australian publication" (even though we do have far too many wannabe KKK types ... in the media, the law and Government).

Regard(les)s,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: BS: Paris Immigrant?Riots
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 03:53 AM

The BBC reported last night that The French are to deport 120 of the rioters that they currently have in custody. This 120 is comprised of illegal immigrants and people with some some of residency permit.
What would you all do then? Pat the poor dears on the head and hand out more benefits?


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