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BS: Evolution is Here to Stay

Grab 19 Oct 05 - 04:24 PM
Wolfgang 19 Oct 05 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,John O'Lennaine 19 Oct 05 - 01:25 AM
frogprince 18 Oct 05 - 11:20 PM
Peace 18 Oct 05 - 09:39 PM
Mrrzy 18 Oct 05 - 09:37 PM
Mrrzy 18 Oct 05 - 09:26 PM
GUEST,DB 18 Oct 05 - 11:19 AM
GUEST 18 Oct 05 - 08:50 AM
Cod Fiddler 18 Oct 05 - 04:19 AM
GUEST 17 Oct 05 - 03:27 PM
Cod Fiddler 17 Oct 05 - 01:39 PM
bobad 17 Oct 05 - 01:33 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 17 Oct 05 - 01:18 PM
GUEST 17 Oct 05 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,DB 17 Oct 05 - 04:37 AM
GUEST,Rumncoke 16 Oct 05 - 11:57 PM
Peace 16 Oct 05 - 06:38 PM
Bunnahabhain 16 Oct 05 - 06:35 PM
bobad 16 Oct 05 - 06:08 PM
Peace 16 Oct 05 - 05:59 PM
Peace 16 Oct 05 - 05:15 PM
bobad 16 Oct 05 - 05:12 PM
Peace 16 Oct 05 - 04:28 PM
Peace 16 Oct 05 - 04:19 PM
Grab 16 Oct 05 - 03:55 PM
Peace 16 Oct 05 - 12:09 PM
MarkS 15 Oct 05 - 11:17 PM
GUEST,TIA 15 Oct 05 - 10:49 PM
GUEST,grenboy 15 Oct 05 - 10:48 PM
Susu's Hubby 15 Oct 05 - 06:58 PM
GUEST 15 Oct 05 - 11:28 AM
Uncle_DaveO 14 Oct 05 - 10:13 PM
frogprince 14 Oct 05 - 07:22 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 14 Oct 05 - 07:15 PM
frogprince 14 Oct 05 - 06:51 PM
Peace 14 Oct 05 - 06:34 PM
Paul Burke 14 Oct 05 - 10:20 AM
GUEST,DB 14 Oct 05 - 05:58 AM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 14 Oct 05 - 02:55 AM
Auggie 13 Oct 05 - 10:51 PM
Peace 13 Oct 05 - 05:56 PM
Peace 13 Oct 05 - 05:54 PM
GUEST,DB 13 Oct 05 - 05:44 PM
Donuel 13 Oct 05 - 02:49 PM
Peace 13 Oct 05 - 02:15 PM
M.Ted 13 Oct 05 - 02:01 PM
Clinton Hammond 13 Oct 05 - 01:53 PM
GUEST,DB 13 Oct 05 - 01:41 PM
Auggie 13 Oct 05 - 01:28 PM
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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Grab
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 04:24 PM

Yep, Don's right. Guest, you're assuming that chimpanzees are on the same road as us, just further back. But they're not. We were on the same road as chimps until recently. But they turned off a couple of towns back and went east when we went west (metaphorically :-) so we're on different roads, going in different directions.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Wolfgang
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 08:53 AM

The primary reason this peculiar American phenomenon of 'evolution denial'...is that a small but vocal minority of religious fundamentalists misread the theory of evolution as a challenge to their deeply held religious convictions. Make no mistake about it. Creationists do not want equal time. They want all the time...

...highly educated religious men are justifying their faith with sophisticated scientistic arguments. This is old-time religion dressed up in newfangled language. The words change but the arguments remain the same.
(M. Shermer, Science Friction)

If each statement in biology, geography, history, physics, chemistry, archeology has to be checked with what all faiths in the world may have stated differently at one time, there could be no meaningful science education at all. That's a very good reason to exclude all religions from schools and universities.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,John O'Lennaine
Date: 19 Oct 05 - 01:25 AM

Fair go frogprince, we're is talking very small children. Cut us a bit of slack eh?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: frogprince
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 11:20 PM

The testable hypothesis, which is fun to do with helium balloons and very small children, is that if you let go of something, it will fall towards your planet.

CHILD ABUSE! CHILD ABUSE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 09:39 PM

Tell THAT to a black hole.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 09:37 PM

Oh, this is what I get for not reading the whole thread carefully before posting! Sorry, all!

Dave, thank you for your "usually" comment (*blush*), but I stand by my definitions:
I said "evolution is a theory, but so is gravity, the planet being round, the planet going around the sun, and a lot of other things that are undeniably, one would wish, true." You said "Wrong! Evolution is an observed set of facts. There are theories which set out to explain it, the most famous and most generally accepted of which is Darwin's. " - sorry, charlie/Dave - nobody observes gravity. You observe its effect; it is a theory. And nobody observes evolution, but evolutionary theory is the best explanation for life as we know it (through science at least.) The problem is, I think, that we (humans, especially anglophones) tend to confuse Jargon and English. In a parallel example, a "soldier" is a person in the Armed Forces, but call a Marine a soldier and you will be corrected. In English, marines, army folks, navy folks and air force folks are all soldiers. In the military, that isn't the case. So when discussing things military, one uses Soldier to mean Member of the branch of the armed forces that is called the Army. By the same token, in science, a theory is that which explains testable hypotheses; in English, it's an idea. Our discourse being about science, it was OK that I used the jargon term, but jargon should always be footnoted as jargon. Gravity, in that universe, is a theory; the observed fact is that you don't fall up. The testable hypothesis, which is fun to do with helium balloons and very small children, is that if you let go of something, it will fall towards your planet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Mrrzy
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 09:26 PM

Trying to distinguish Theory from "theory" a) plays into the hands of the Intelligent Design crowd and b) shows ignorance of what a theory is, which is the best explanation for something that science has for now. While we thought the sun went around the earth, that was the theory of the day. Now we know that the earth goes around the sun, but it's still the heliocentric theory. The ID folks would have people think that since we say Theory we are saying Not Known To Be A Fact. That shows ignorance of basic science, which is something Americans are all too proud of too often. How many Americans were teased as children, called Brainiacs and so on, for doing well in science classes? How many Europeans ditto? I'd bet money that there are a lot more of the former than the latter. So please, don't prolong the agony by arguing that some things are Theory and others, mere theory. Please.

Off to check out that parody site now...


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 11:19 AM

Thanks, 'Bodad' - that is the book I was looking for!

For anyone interested the book in question is called: 'The Beak of the Finch: A Story of Evolution in Our Time' by Jonathan Weiner.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 08:50 AM

As Star Trek's Spock would say, "Fascinating."


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 04:19 AM

Indeed. A good example comes from the decimated stocks of Atlantic cod. Fishing mortality is intense and the largest fish are most easily caught. Consequently, the natural strategy of growing big before reaching maturity no longer pays off. It has now been proved that cod are reaching maturity much earlier and at smaller sizes as a direct result of fishing. This strategy gives them a chance to breed before they're caught, though such fish are nowhere near as productive as the big fish of the good old days.

Further details can be found here:
Olsen et al. 2004 Maturation trends indicative of rapid evolution preceded the collapse of northern cod. Nature 428, 932-935

As soon as fishing pressure is removed, cod stocks will return to the most productive strategy, with size- and age-at-maturity gradually increasing. Unfortunately, as the selection pressure is nowhere near as strong as the pressure exerted by our fishing mortality, the stocks could take hundreds of years to return to their former productivity, even if left entirely alone.

Richard


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 03:27 PM

...so an adaptation that can be seen as an evolutionary step forward can also be taken back if the environment changes to support such a move.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Cod Fiddler
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 01:39 PM

Micro-evolution is undisputed. Change the living conditions of an organism and it will adapt to the new environmnent. Constant exposure to antibiotic is resulting in the increasing prevalence of MRSA. HIV strains are another excellent example - they have mutated to become much LESS virulent, which of course inhances their spread. Macro-evolution (the changing of one species into another) is imposible to prove because it takes millenia and no one's there to watch. BUT, the evidence for its existence is overwhelming, while the evidence for ID can be exhausted in a matter of minutes.

There's nothing wrong with religion or belief in ID but ID does NOT belong in a scientific arguement.

Visit the link below for a fabulous parody, which puts all the arguements very nicely.

http://www.venganza.org/


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: bobad
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 01:33 PM

Is this the book you are looking for guest DB?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 01:18 PM

GUEST,

As I understand it you are right about the future for humans, but wrong about chimpanzees.

They too will be different than the current chimp, but not necessarily more like us, as the survival characteristics required in their environment should almost certainly produce different changes than those which will shape future humans.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 12:30 PM

...so my weak understanding of evolution is this: several hundred generations from now, barring extinction, our descendants will be somewhat different from us, appearance-wise and also genetically ....and chimpanzees, if permitted to continue on their same evolutionary path, will be more like us now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:37 AM

I've not mentioned this before, because I can't remember the details.
An ex-girl friend of mine had a book called, something like, 'Darwin's Finches'. It was a very detailed account of long term studies of finch populations on the Galapagos Islands. If I remember correctly it purported to show that these significant birds are still changing and in accordance with the principles of evolutionary theory. Has anyone else encountered this book and does anyone know where I could get another copy? The 'ex' is a bit too 'ex' now to ask!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,Rumncoke
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 11:57 PM

Here in the UK we have two sorts of gulls (amongst others) one is called the black headed - because in the breeding season it has a black head - the other has a black back. They are about the same size and shape, but they are regarded as separate species as they do not interbreed.

If you leave these shores and proceed around the world - either way - your choice - you will find that other places have a similar gull - but only one species, not two.

If you keep going you will see that there are gulls very like the ones in the place you just left - but - as you go round the world the one sort slowly changes into the other. If you were to take gulls from a one gull species spot to another a few hundred miles further on in the circumnavigation they would have little trouble integrating with the locals. It is only when you reach here again that the sum of all the differences is apparent.

The UK has both ends of the spectrum, or series, whatever you want to call it. It seems to show that what we call a species is just the end of a very long line.

Anne


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:38 PM

"they would all deny us freedom of thought."

And that is way too true.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:35 PM

Unfortunatly, fundementalists would happily depive us of that, for our own good.

Any one group have a set of no-nos, but the one thing that unifies, almost defines them is that they would all deny us freedom of thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 06:08 PM

That's the beauty of living where we do, everyone can believe in anything they damn well want to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:59 PM

However, I think there is a difference between my belief in God and the belief held by certain fundamental factions. I don't insist that anyone agree with me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:15 PM

I used to think that, too.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: bobad
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 05:12 PM

God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I'll say it again
God is a Concept by which
we measure our pain
I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
I don't believe in Bible
I don't believe in Tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
I don't believe in Jesus
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in Kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
I don't believe in Beatles
I just believe in me...and that reality

John Lennon


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:28 PM

. . . and I apologize to no one for my belief in God. Ever.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:19 PM

I stand with a pendulum juuuuussssssstt touching my nose, and with my head frimly held in position by a metal device. The pendulum swings away from me. I KNOW it will not come back and smash me in the nose. However, on its inward swing I don't doubt I would blink.

On a calm day I jump from an airplane. I KNOW I will fall towards the Earth.

With the above two examples, poor as they are, I put my trust in science and my observations over the years. I say trust because I do not understand the math/physics that is used to explain gravity. Just because I don't understand it doesn't mean I don't believe in the predicted results.

I a spiritual way, God is like that for me. I accept it, even though I KNOW many people will not understand. God is as much an observation for me as the science dictums I stated above (and if they ain't dictums, then I mean whatever they are).


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Grab
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 03:55 PM

Hubby, that's clearly a joke from a creationist, since it's unrelated to scientists as the rest of the world knows them...

You *cannot* "prove" the theory of evolution, any more than you can "prove" the theory of gravity. All you can do is come up with hypotheses which more closely fit the observed facts than previous hypotheses. A hypothesis which fits facts closely is called a theory.

Gravity-wise, the Christian Bible said (and still says) that the Earth is the centre of the universe. Observed facts (mostly by sailors) made it clear this wasn't the case, and the theory of gravity pissed on the Church's fire big-time, because denying the evidence isn't a good long-term strategy. Some observations then didn't fit with Newtonian gravity, and Einstein got a better version. Some observations today don't fit with Einstein, so a new theory to cover those is likely to appear sometime in our lifetimes (string theory is the current favourite).

Evolution-wise, the Christian Bible said (and still says) that every creature was created as-is. Darwin said it ain't so. Darwin's theory wasn't perfect, but recent revisions have made it clearer. The state of genetics is such that only someone who's never heard of genetics can deny that evolution happens. The Catholic Church learnt from its previous hiding, and the latest John Paul wisely chose a non-confrontational position by declaring that the Bible could be allegorical ("The Bible says how to live, not how life came to be").

Auggie, as for an example of evolution, there are two really good ones. Darwin's finches are the classic, but the changes are still pretty small in the finches - one type of small bird to another type of small bird isn't really visible. A better example is cichlids (especially in Lake Malawi). Whales aren't a bad example either, given that a reasonable continuity of fossil evidence exists from marine mammals with 4 limbs, through marine mammals with atrophied limbs, to what you see today.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 12:09 PM

"Mutation IS random."

The Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles were NOT random.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: MarkS
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 11:17 PM

Natural selection usually takes place over such lengthy periods of time the effects are hard to see over just a few generations. The path from proto equines to modern horses goes back hundreds of thousands of years, if not more. This I think is one of the reasons the Intellegent Designers reject evolution - the evolutionary process is just too slow to be immediately grasped.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 10:49 PM

Evolution doesn't "just happen". If you think your story illustrates something, this shows that you are ignorant (probably intentionally so) of what the "Theory of Evolution" actually says.

Here's a hint. Mutation IS random. Natural selection is not.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,grenboy
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 10:48 PM

i am a visitor to this site. i would like to thank most of the people that put these subjects up for discussion. when i have a bad day or need a good laugh i just come to this site and it almost always makes me smile.

some of the things that ya'll come up with is so silly that i can't help but laugh.

there is no arguing the "fact" of evolution, that is if you want to dismiss the finding of human remains that were carbon dated back so far in time that the scientist deturmined that it could not have possibly evolved from anything.

you can always go back to the scientist in england that sat down and discussed how the big bang happened. what banged to cause it? the different dementions, the alternate planes of existance that are out there (11 i believe) to make all the mathmatics come out right to enable sdientist to explane everything away. there are two membranes out there somewhere. these two membranes colided and that is what caused the bang. but even these brilliant minds failed to explane one thing, who made the membranes? how did they get there? have they just been there haning out? what caused them to be?

how badly does a person have to want to believe something to believe that! common sence would tell most anybody that it would be easier to believe in an all powerful being than to have to buy into that.
ya'll people want facts, there are two facts that are undeniable. there are two places that you will never find an athiest, on the back of a bull and at the throne of God.

those are the facts.

thank you for your time and the laughs,

                  greenboy


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 06:58 PM

A scientist was sitting in his office one day when he heard a knock upon his door. He invited the visitor in and to his surprise, it was his old roommate from college. He too, was a scientist.

As they sat and reminisced about old times, the first scientist, in whose office they were in, asked his friend where his research has brought him up to this point. He said that he was working on trying to prove the theory of evolution.

The first scientist was taken aback because he was a fervent believer in intelligent design. They talked about the topic for a little while and even got into a slight argument.

When the first scientist knew that the conversation was not going anywhere, he changed the subject.

As the second scientist started looking around the office, he noticed very intricate woodwork on display. A carved wooden globe of the earth really caught his eye. As he looked and admired the workmanship of the fine details carved into the wood, his curiosity finally got the best of him.

"Who made this?" he asked.

The first scientist just smiled at him and said "No one. It just happened."



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Oct 05 - 11:28 AM

"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure." -- Albert Einstein


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:13 PM

Mrr, (usually a fairly reliable source) said:

Now let's not complicate the picture - evolution is a theory, but so is gravity, the planet being round, the planet going around the sun, and a lot of other things that are undeniably, one would wish, true.

Wrong! Evolution is an observed set of facts. There are theories which set out to explain it, the most famous and most generally accepted of which is Darwin's.

Neither is gravity a theory; it's an observed fact. But there are theories as to how it works.

Neither is the earth going around the sun a theory. As with the above, there are all sorts of theories tied up with the explanation of what happens, and why.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:22 PM

Has Ooh-Ah figured out a new, more or less derogatory, category for believers that includes Peace and Don T., yet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 07:15 PM

A pity also that people equate God with "Religion", and can't seem to distinguish between the divine and the all too fallible human attempts at interpreting the meaning of the divine.

A simple metaphor for my own beliefs would be as follows:- When I need to use the product, I deal directly with the manufacturer, who is happy to consider my requirements, and fulfil them if he is able.

Sometimes he has to refuse my request, but always gives me an honest answer.

There are of course a number of other organisations dealing with the product, but generally as a package deal, modified to suit their ideals, not mine. These are, for the most part, honest organisations, acting in my best interests as perceived by them. However, the product has been so modified over time that it retains little in common with the manufacturer's specification.

In short, I don't do my praying in any church. I pray wherever, and whenever I need to, and I always am answered, although the answer quite often is not the one I had hoped for.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: frogprince
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:51 PM

Peace, I just printed off that post, 'cause I really don't want to lose it. Hard to summarize my reaction to it, save that I think it's terrific.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 06:34 PM

"Have I missed any do y'think?"


From Ooh-Aah2

'Anyone who still believes in God and all that superstition is:

(1) Too afraid of death, for self or for loved ones to look reality in the face - I find this human and understandable, if a bit gutless

I look 'death in the face' a few times a year on average. That I may or may not have another life after this one has got nothing to do with why I 'look death in the face' a few times a year. (I don't care for the personification, but hey, ya know?)

(2) Brought up to believe in God - and therefore to give up the belief is to destroy part of his or her emotional core

I have been a 'believer', 'non-believer', aethiest, agnostic, gnostic and often just a ne'er-do-well. God is not part of my emotional core. Never has been.

(3) A weak person (nothing neccessarily wrong with that) who finds religion an invaluable prop to make meaning from an otherwise meaningless life - lots of 'born agains' come into this category

I am not at all religious.

(4) someone too blind to see the sacred nature of our lovely planet and awe-inspiring universe, who thus has an unneccessary emotional thirst for a supernatural 'something else'

I have spent years of my life 'close to nature'. I'm as, maybe more, at 'home' in the bush as I am in towns or cities.

(5)Probably the most common category - God and religion are simply part of the lifestyle they have been brought up with - questioning the need for God would be like questioning the need for furniture

God is a reasoned decision I arrived at after about 45 years of thinking about it all.

(6) Those for whom 'God' is a convenient simile and shorthand for political views and a particular lifestyle, for example the US right.

That ain't me. God, politics--they should be oil, water. Too bad people get the two mixed up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Paul Burke
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 10:20 AM

My point is that, among those scientific theories generally assumed to be fact, I think (Macro) evolution (i.e. one species gradually or in a punctuated fashion morphing into another species entirely) is one of the most poorly proven.

I don't think you have any grounds for thinking that. It's as proven as any other scientific theory ever is; we have huge amounts of fossil records illustrating long- term evolution of larger animals, and we can see evolution in real time in viruses and bacteria.

The main problem is the idea of 'species'. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SPECIES in that sense. There IS a continuum of varieties, which extends over time and space; for convenience, taxonomists apply the word 'species' to variants which can be readily (if you are an expert) distinguished from other variants at the present time.

One common misconception is that evolution is something that 'happens'; suddenly, one species is transformed into another, the old ones all 'become extinct', and the new ones take their place. Nothing as dramatic as that ever happens- indeed, it can't.

Another is that there are objective tests of separateness, like chromosome count, interfertility etc. Viewing the world as populated by varieties helps to avoid this pitfall- you would expect some possibility of interbreeding between closely related variants, bigger problems between less related ones, and its absence when the separation is large. Which is what happens.

And it's no good arguing that this leaves us unable to distinguish between varieties. We can, just as we can distinguish between yellow and blue, even though there is no sharp dividing line anywhere in the light spectrum.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 05:58 AM

Dear Auggie,

I'm ashamed to admit that in my haste and fury I may have upset and insulted a very genuine and thoughtful person. Reading back through my posts I see that I was unforgiveably rude. You have my heartfelt apologies - I should really put my brain in gear before I attack this keyboard! Sorry, sorry, sorry!

Very best wishes,
DB


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 14 Oct 05 - 02:55 AM

Anyone who still believes in God and all that superstition is:

(1) Too afraid of death, for self or for loved ones to look reality in the face - I find this human and understandable, if a bit gutless
(2) Brought up to believe in God - and therefore to give up the belief is to destroy part of his or her emotional core
(3) A weak person (nothing neccessarily wrong with that) who finds religion an invaluable prop to make meaning from an otherwise meaningless life - lots of 'born agains' come into this category
(4) someone too blind to see the sacred nature of our lovely planet and awe-inspiring universe, who thus has an unneccessary emotional thirst for a supernatural 'something else'
(5)Probably the most common category - God and religion are simply part of the lifestyle they have been brought up with - questioning the need for God would be like questioning the need for furniture
(6) Those for whom 'God' is a convenient simile and shorthand for political views and a particular lifestyle, for example the US right.

Have I missed any do y'think?


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Auggie
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 10:51 PM

DB-
In rereading MY post it sounds harsh...I guess evolution pushes my buttons too. It's not that I dont care what you think (someone elses's opinion's are always of interst, if for no other reason than to trigger the re-evaluation of one's own). What I meant was, "I dont give a crap "IF" you believe in evolution." If you like those ideas, fine, go with 'em. My point was never that you, nor anybody else needs to be a baptist-type bible thumping fundamentalist. Theocracys suck man, whether they're here or in Iran.

My point is that, among those scientific theories generally assumed to be fact, I think (Macro) evolution (i.e. one species gradually or in a punctuated fashion morphing into another species entirely) is one of the most poorly proven.

I don't know how we got here.
And I don't confuse what I believe with what I know.

Personally, I believe there is a God (tho unlike George Bush, He hasn't spoken to me on a first name basis, at least not yet). But, and especially in a scientific sense, I don't KNOW that belief of mine to be true. I also believe he calls different people in different ways. Some to be Jews, some to be Catholics, some to be Wiccans, some to be Bible-thumping baptists, some to be Islamic, some to define their own tenets of faith. Any of it, or all of it is Ok by me. When I KNOW I've discovered the "one, true path", I'll be the first to institute the "thought police". So far I'm still lookin' for it.

Till then, my objection to macroevolution is based on the paucity of hard, scientific evidence for it, not on its possible conflict with Judeo-Christian traditions of creation.

OK, I've vented. I'm outa here.
Best to you DB


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 05:56 PM

However, I don't want to get too much outta character.

"Evolution is Here to Stay"

Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what they said about rock and roll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 05:54 PM

"To me the essence of spirituality is humility and fundamentalists, in their absolute certainty, are the opposite of humble."

This is one of the more important statements to be made here.

I have always loved Rasmussen because he is a religious man AND a humble man. If I ever became religious, I hope it would be in the same manner as Jerry. He is a true believer, great person and he walks the walk that so many damned fundamentalists talk and talk.

Well said, DB.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 05:44 PM

Yes, Auggie - I really should chill out. But I find that this issue really pisses me off. We always seem to have to pussy-foot around when it comes to fundamentalists - of any type (why?). It often seems to me that our entire civilisation is sliding into a pit of dogma amd irrationality. And this against a background of astounding scientific progress.
Again, I really don't want to belittle anyone's sincerely held religious beliefs (after all they might be correct!) but it's when the religious want to tell everyone else what to believe, and how to live their lives (see Donuel's stem cell story above), that the alarm bells start ringing. To me the essence of spirituality is humility and fundamentalists, in their absolute certainty, are the opposite of humble. I'm fully aware that I probably fail the humility test, myself (!), but I do feel very humble in the face of the natural world and the Universe at large and know that most of it will probably remain unknowable - even to the greatest scientists.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Donuel
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 02:49 PM

I DO NOT WANT MODERN MEDICINE GOVERNED BY RELIGIOUS THEORY AND QUACKERY !

The sad thing is my famiy has already suffered from religious dogma's encroachment into medicine.

We were denied the storage of our son's umbilical cord stem cells at Holy Cross Hospital, despite the fact we registered to have them saved 6 months in advance. The stem cell political hot button had heated up and hospital officials had reversed the stem cell storage program the very week of our delivery.

Dr. Footer took are first son's cord blood stem cells. He told me later he needed cord blood stem cells for his daughter who had leukemia.

She is now cured.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Peace
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 02:15 PM

Gravity has its ups and downs, that's fer shore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: M.Ted
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 02:01 PM

If evolution is thrown out, next, they'll overturn the Law of Gravity--


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Clinton Hammond
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:53 PM

"ignorance isn't a crime"

But it should be!


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: GUEST,DB
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:41 PM

As I tried to make clear, above, anyone can believe anything they like; and after all, ignorance isn't a crime (or a sin!). But, what really worries me is that this whole ID thing comes from religious fundamentalists and history teaches us that such people won't stop at giving ID equal time with evolutionary theory in American schools. The next thing you know they'll want ID to be taught exclusively and then they'll be burning heretics who support the Theory of Evolution.
Basically, any group which claims to have exclusive access to 'the truth' is potentially dangerous and should be resisted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Evolution is Here to Stay
From: Auggie
Date: 13 Oct 05 - 01:28 PM

Jeez DB, Chill out buddy. I really don't give a crap what you believe, and as for the thought police, well, rereading the posts, it would seem you are the one who is intolerant of any opinions other than your own.
As Mr. Spock might have said, "Go, and evolve in Peace".


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