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Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?

Lonesome EJ 13 Sep 05 - 12:16 AM
Le Scaramouche 13 Sep 05 - 04:22 AM
Kenneth Ingham 13 Sep 05 - 05:46 AM
Mooh 13 Sep 05 - 08:02 AM
GUEST,Fullerton 13 Sep 05 - 08:53 AM
mack/misophist 13 Sep 05 - 09:18 AM
Blackcatter 13 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM
GUEST,Mr Happy 13 Sep 05 - 09:56 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 13 Sep 05 - 10:06 AM
Le Scaramouche 13 Sep 05 - 10:21 AM
Chris in Wheaton 13 Sep 05 - 10:43 AM
C-flat 13 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM
mooman 13 Sep 05 - 11:33 AM
Le Scaramouche 13 Sep 05 - 12:18 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Sep 05 - 01:13 PM
GUEST,woodsie 13 Sep 05 - 01:14 PM
Leadfingers 13 Sep 05 - 01:17 PM
John MacKenzie 13 Sep 05 - 01:21 PM
Little Hawk 13 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM
Grab 13 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM
Grimmy 14 Sep 05 - 07:38 AM
Le Scaramouche 14 Sep 05 - 10:32 AM
fat B****rd 14 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM
GUEST,Houston_Diamond 14 Sep 05 - 05:21 PM
M.Ted 14 Sep 05 - 08:04 PM
Mooh 14 Sep 05 - 11:48 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Sep 05 - 01:12 AM
'those feet in ancient times 15 Sep 05 - 04:48 AM
Le Scaramouche 15 Sep 05 - 04:49 AM
s6k 15 Sep 05 - 07:44 AM
M.Ted 15 Sep 05 - 09:38 AM
Le Scaramouche 15 Sep 05 - 01:52 PM
Mooh 15 Sep 05 - 10:42 PM
Lonesome EJ 15 Sep 05 - 11:08 PM
Paco Rabanne 16 Sep 05 - 09:53 AM
s6k 17 Sep 05 - 07:49 AM
Le Scaramouche 17 Sep 05 - 10:42 AM
Mooh 18 Sep 05 - 08:59 AM
GUEST 19 Sep 05 - 12:02 AM
GUEST,who 19 Sep 05 - 04:48 AM
GUEST 19 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM
M.Ted 19 Sep 05 - 01:34 PM
GUEST 19 Sep 05 - 01:43 PM
GUEST 20 Sep 05 - 10:53 AM
M.Ted 20 Sep 05 - 04:17 PM
GUEST 20 Sep 05 - 08:20 PM
M.Ted 20 Sep 05 - 09:10 PM
GUEST 21 Sep 05 - 08:16 AM
M.Ted 21 Sep 05 - 07:47 PM
Goose Gander 21 Sep 05 - 10:12 PM
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Subject: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 12:16 AM

In the mid-1960s, I was first taught to love the native Blues music of America by five Englishmen who gave these blues their own guitar-and-harmonica driven spin...the Yardbirds. Keith Relf, Jim McCarty, Chris Dreja and Eric Clapton cranked For Your Love into the airwaves of my hometown, and everything seemed to change. Later Clapton would leave to be replaced by Jeff Beck, and Jimmy Page joined on bass. Through this period, the band mingled updated classic blues like Smokestack Lightnin with newer proto-psychedelic material like Shapes of Things, but credited the blues material, as did the Stones, Beatles, and other British pop-blues groups, to the original composers.
When Page gained ascendancy in the band, things began to change. In other words, lyrics, titles, guitar parts, entire songs were lifted from their underpriveledged composers and ascribed to Page/Plant/Jones/Bonham. Page didn't restrict his theft to the old timers of the blues, however. He consistently stole concepts, techniques and songs from his former bandmates and from other bands that he toured with. Dazed and Confused was the work of a blues artist Page saw in New York. The Yardbirds covered this song live for several years before it emerged on Led Zepplin as an "original" composition. He sued to keep a pre-1968 Yardbirds version from being released. The entire acoustic intro to Stairway to Heaven was stolen from Spirit's Taurus after Zeppelin toured with them.
If you are interested in Page, Zeppelin, the Yardbirds, or rampant acts of plagiarism, see this article. Really pretty entertaining stuff.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 04:22 AM

Rampant plagiarist, it's true, but not without blues precedents.
What did Tom Lehrer say?
Plagiarise, plagiarise,
Let no-one's work evade your eyes


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Kenneth Ingham
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 05:46 AM

In the linked article it says that Babe I'm Gonna Leave You is credited to Bredon, Page etc. May I point out that this is only the case on recent CD issues. On the original vynyl and early CDs there is no mention of Bredon.

I saw Robert Plant at Canterbury Fayre a couple of years ago and he openly said that they ripped off most of their songs not thinking that anybody would notice. He went on to credit the original composeres for most of his set which included the most well known Zep ripoffs. Fair play Robert - you obviously don't care now cos you're stinking rich and most of the original writers have snuffed it anyway!


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Mooh
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 08:02 AM

Not to defend Page et al, because they weren't completely innocent, but all music is derivative, and blues is and was a common people's music. They were going a little further than their forebears perhaps, but that seems to be the natural state of evolution in music. That there are legal checks and balances that have stepped in is good, and some of the damage has been rectified, payments made, however late.

For the record, the folks who Page ripped off got their music from somewhere too, and not always credited.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,Fullerton
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 08:53 AM

A couple of years ago i found a website called the roots of Led Zeppelin.

I've searched for the site today but I think its down.

It gave little snippets of ripped off riffs and there were dozens of them.

It also claimed that they were at the receiving end of, I think, more than fifty legal cases. And it cost them very dear.

Willie Dixon is certainly is a great deal better off than if they had cleared the use of his material beforehand.

As are many others.

And many Lawyers, I'm sure are very grateful to them.

Curiously Led Zeppelin have not seem to have lost their taste for litigation as they are involved with several legal cases downloading and copyright breaches.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: mack/misophist
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:18 AM

In one of the many biographies of Pablo Picasso he is quoted as saying "People never show me their work because they know if I see anything good, I'll steal it."


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Blackcatter
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:48 AM

Don't forget about record producers and the owners of the record compaines. They are just as much at fault (if not more) for allowing bands to plagiarize. Certainly, they're the ones who profit the most and have the ultimate say as to what appears on an album and in the credits.

Yes, blame the artist, but it might be chalked up to partial ignorance, but corporate greed cannot be excused.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,Mr Happy
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 09:56 AM

& wasn't there a similar case recently levelled against George Harrison for his alllegely stolen intro riff for 'My Sweet Lord'?


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:06 AM

Finding and using has always been a part of the concept of the oral tradition in the folk revival as I knew it. We wanted to use the music we heard, and so we did just that. It was the way it was done then. Bits and pieces we heard and used became the cliches within our works that made/created our personal styles. We were too broke to pay much for anything. So we made our music, we made our livings --- and that was enough.

Art


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:21 AM

Yes, but the problem with Page seems to be wholesale lifting and then claiming the credit.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Chris in Wheaton
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 10:43 AM

How about the Beach Boys using Chuck Berry licks?
Or the Kingston Trio taking Tom Dooley and other songs?
I'd guess this is still going on.
If all musicians were angels, we wouldn 't need lawyers!
Chris in Wheaton


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: C-flat
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 11:16 AM

One of the most amazing acts of plagarism is Mark Knopflers "Brothers in Arms". Take a listen to Snowy Whites' "Bird of Paradise" that was released two years earlier.
Wether it was subliminal or intentional, who knows, but I don't recall there being a case about.
Maybe there was and I missed it?

C-flat.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: mooman
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 11:33 AM

Having jammed with Snowy (a very fine player) long ago I'll definitely have a listen to that C-flat!

Peace

moo


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 12:18 PM

I could be getting confused because of the opening line of Brothers in Arms, but it always reminds of the melody for Mist Covered Mountains of Home.
Didn't the Kingston Trio credit Tom Dooley as trad arr?


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:13 PM

Jimmy Page used to be my neighbour when he bought Boleskine House the old home of Alasteir Crowley.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,woodsie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:14 PM

Come on! Bird Of Paradise itself is a straight rip-off of hendrix's "Little Wing"


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:17 PM

The 'Fans' are as bad as any one else - How often do you hear a song introduced and credited to 'The Singer' with NO mention of who actually wrote the words and music !!!!


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:21 PM

Songs are like Biros the good ones are called by the name of the originator, others by the name of the singer who had the hit with them.
But a vacuum cleaner still sucks the same as a Hoover.
Giok


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 01:28 PM

I never could stand most of Led Zeppelin's music anyway...just not my style, I guess. They sound like the apotheosis of the dumb, pretentious, overblown male ego gone wild to me. (and I am male) I frankly detest most of their big hits.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Grab
Date: 13 Sep 05 - 03:12 PM

I found a preview of the first 30 seconds of "Bird of paradise". I can hear one similar riff in that , but it's a fairly simple phrase that fits a very common chord progression, it's in a different place in the song, and it's in a different tempo. And I agree with woodsie, the song sounds like a Hendrix "tribute". I can't say much more though, since I don't know how the rest of the song goes.

Graham.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Grimmy
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 07:38 AM

Here's another impressively looong list of songs that Mr Page 'composed'.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 10:32 AM

What on earth do they mean by this?

"Bring It On Home" - the first section is an uncredited cover of the Willie Dixon tune (as performed by the imposter Sonny Boy Williamson).


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: fat B****rd
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 04:03 PM

Well.....if you're gonna steal, steal from the best.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,Houston_Diamond
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 05:21 PM

I can't agree with you more.

I'm a fan of Howlin' Wolf which seems to have been an artist reproduced closely note for note by Led Zeppelin.

But I don't care as I like the blues and I'm happy that it's being kept alive (even when they take the credit for it themselves!!!).

Speaking of Howlin' Wolf the 1970 album 'The London Sessions' include the artists Eric Clapton, Rolling Stones Bill Wyman and Charlie Watts, with Stevie Winwood providing keyboard overdubs which has to be a must album to any blues(or Zeppelin) fan.

Howlin' Wolf was in his early sixties and in poor health when he recorded 'The London Sessions'. Despite this, Wolf still manages to rock the house with a great collection of songs that he'd made famous, plus covers of Willie Dixon's.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: M.Ted
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 08:04 PM

People seem to think that "Stairway to Heaven" was a straight ripoff of Spirit's "Taurus"--well, it is similar to one part, but you have to be thinking about it to even notice it--However, the famous and much abused intro is pretty much note for note the same as the intro to Jobim's "Manha de Carnival"--

As shifty, lowlife, and litigation prone as all this lifting makes Page seem, nonetheless, he added or changed something that made all of this music completely enthralling to your average metalhead--in fact, by playing this music, he created metalheads--mind you, I am not necessarily a big Page fan, but whatever he did brought all that stuff across in way that no one else had done--that's why he made the big bucks--


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Mooh
Date: 14 Sep 05 - 11:48 PM

M.Ted...Was that a movie theme, or am I thinking of something else?

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:12 AM

Well. Maybe Jimmy was simply paying tribute to the music of men he admired very much. Page was and is a student of the blues. He is certainly shown to have borrowed phrases and segments of entire songs from the pioneers. Wouldn't it have been an even greater tribute to assign their authorship and pay some small portion of the profit he derived from borrowing their intellectual property? It speaks volumes about his ethics, don't you think? The fact that he had to be sued in order to do the right thing says even more.
Personally I have always liked Zeppelin, and I think Page is one of the great rock guitarists. But I have to say that I think there is a difference between the kind of borrowing that goes on as part of the folk tradition, and what Page did. Page was not ignorant of his sources, as the article clearly points out.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: 'those feet in ancient times
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:48 AM

I dont agree with Fat B******d when he says if youre going to steal (musically I hope he means) steal from the Best, I think theres more to had from John Faheys approach which was When you steal steal from obscure sources


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 04:49 AM

Best doesn't always mean 'famous'.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: s6k
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 07:44 AM

WHO CARES JUST LISTEN TO HOW GOOD ZEPPELIN WERE


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: M.Ted
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 09:38 AM

No question at all, LonesomeEJ--you are exactly right. Mooh-"Manha de Carnival" was from the film'"Black Orpheus"--in fact, just to confuse things, a lot of musicians used to call it Black Orpheus(not sure about nowadays)-- the confusion being that Samba de Orfeo came from the same film--it was hard to keep the names straight, though easy enough to tell the songs apart--


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 01:52 PM

S6k, you'd care if Jimmy Page heard something you wrote and claimed it for himself.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Mooh
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 10:42 PM

M.Ted...Thanks.

Been listening to even more Zep than usual because of this thread. Bonzo was so good! Him and Charlie Watts and Keith Moon define rock drums to me. Refined and primitive all at once.

Peace, Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 15 Sep 05 - 11:08 PM

Mooh, you're right about Bonham. The drum part on Black Dog is probably the most brilliant in rock. Bonzo plays as if he is keeping beat to an entirely different song than the rest of the band is playing. At first it seems jarring, then like a tug of war between giant ogres, then everything smacks together in a perfect driving cohesion. Sure, Jimmy and Bob probably stole the lyrics to that one too. "I don't know, but I been told/ Big legged woman aint got no soul" doesn't sound like a lyric a couple of Brits would coin.
The drumming on When the Levee Breaks is also amazing. Apparently, Bonham set up his kit in the stair well of a large old English manor house while the drum microphones were hung over the third floor rail.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 16 Sep 05 - 09:53 AM

So what's new? We ALL KNOW that Bob Dylan ripped off his entire act and reportire from the genius Donavan!!!!


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: s6k
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 07:49 AM

Not to mention Martin Carthy, his entire career is one big RIP OFF of the genius that is William Shatner


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Le Scaramouche
Date: 17 Sep 05 - 10:42 AM

NOOOO we do not want anouther Shatner thread!!!!!


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Mooh
Date: 18 Sep 05 - 08:59 AM

Lonesome EJ...and Four Sticks! Geez, what a monster! Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 12:02 AM

...and the reason why they were so good is because it was a group effort. You had one guy with a unique voice, a killer guitarist and a rock solid accomplished drummer with a singularly defined style, coupled with a bassist who could add bottom to a band that was heavy on 'bottom,' - it all came together in just the right measure for success.

The effect wouldn't have been the same if one of those elements were missing, which the group wisely recognized by disbanding when Bonzo passed away.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST,who
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 04:48 AM

"Zeppelin's roots in the blues are enough to disqualify the music as being "metal."

But Black Sabbath also has its roots in the blues.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 10:35 AM

not with those "E-D-E" progressions ...irrespective of Iommi's almost exclusive use of the minor pentatonic scale ...


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: M.Ted
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 01:34 PM

Led Zepplin was the original heavy metal group- Lead being, a heavy metal--and heavy metal is, more or less, blues with the shuffle ironed out, or, as some have called it, blues without soul. Still, there is plenty of controversy as to the nature of heavy metal. I submit, from the webpage Is Silver a Heavy Metal?



>Historically, There is no Consensus on a Scientifically Valid Definition of Heavy Metal

>"There is a tendency, unsupported by the facts, to assume that all so-called "heavy metals" and >their compounds have highly toxic or ecotoxic properties. This has no basis in chemical or >toxicological data. Thus, the term "heavy metals" is both meaningless and misleading."

>- John H. Duffus, The Edinburgh Centre for Toxicology, Scotland, "Pure and Applied Chemistry" >74, 793–807



>A few thoughts by Stephen J. Hawkes of Oregon State University, Department of Chemistry, >demonstrate an interesting perspective:

>"The metals that I have seen referred to as heavy metals comprise a block of all the metals in >Groups 3 to 16 that are in periods 4 and greater. This seems to be a definition that should be >generally useful. It may also be stated as the transition and post-transition metals. These acquired >the name heavy metals because they all have high densities, but the usefulness of the term is >related to their chemistry, not their density.


No mention of the E to D chord changes--


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Sep 05 - 01:43 PM

Old Robbo has gone all folksy rootsy now. And the circle is complete?


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 10:53 AM

Metallica or any of the metal bands around today seem to be way removed from the blues progressions, so I don't see the connection. I think of metal as having more of a classical influence, introduced by the likes of people like Ritchie Blackmore. Or demonic roots as in Black Sabbath. Led Zeppelin isn't a metal band to me....hard rock, yes...psychedelia, occasionally. Metal, no.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 04:17 PM

They may not play 12-bar blues progressions GUEST, but the music form is based on blues leads and bass figures--no way you can escape from it, and no reason you'd want to--


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 08:20 PM

but they do play 12-bar blues progressions .... what is "Rock 'n' Roll?" .... which was my point to begin with ...their music was too derivative of the blues to be metal, and that was what this thread was about to begin with ....


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: M.Ted
Date: 20 Sep 05 - 09:10 PM

I meant the other guys that you mentioned. All Heavy Metal is heavily derivative of the blues. Bottom line is that the music and instrumental technique was all stolen from black people.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 08:16 AM

"All heavy metal is heavily derivative of the blues" .... we'll have to agree to disagree. I don't hear a derivation of the blues in bands like Anthrax or Cannibal Corpse, or Scorpions even...even though the guitarists in those bands might fall into a riff built around the blues scale occasionally.


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: M.Ted
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 07:47 PM

We can disagree, I have no problem with that--I will say though that blues isn't about "blues scales" or 12 bar progressions--it's the ideas and the technique for playing them that come from the blues--


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Subject: RE: Jimmy Page- Plagiarist of the Blues?
From: Goose Gander
Date: 21 Sep 05 - 10:12 PM

Then what precisely are the "ideas and techniques for playing them" to which you refer?


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