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BS: IRA ends armed campaign

Den 28 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM
GUEST,Mrr 28 Jul 05 - 10:53 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 28 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM
Amos 28 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM
Shakey 28 Jul 05 - 11:07 AM
pdq 28 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 28 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM
GUEST,Tír Eoghain 28 Jul 05 - 11:14 AM
Shakey 28 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM
Shakey 28 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM
GUEST,Tír Eoghain 28 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM
Shakey 28 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 28 Jul 05 - 11:24 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 28 Jul 05 - 11:25 AM
Shakey 28 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM
GUEST,Tír Chonaill 28 Jul 05 - 11:29 AM
GUEST,Tír Eoghain 28 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM
Shakey 28 Jul 05 - 11:35 AM
Shakey 28 Jul 05 - 11:50 AM
ard mhacha 28 Jul 05 - 01:19 PM
Peace 28 Jul 05 - 01:21 PM
Amos 28 Jul 05 - 01:22 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 01:38 PM
GUEST,Tír Eoghain 28 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM
GUEST,Tír Eoghain 28 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM
Peace 28 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM
jacqui.c 28 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM
Big Mick 28 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 02:12 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM
Big Mick 28 Jul 05 - 02:22 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 02:29 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 28 Jul 05 - 03:34 PM
Big Mick 28 Jul 05 - 03:42 PM
Peace 28 Jul 05 - 03:44 PM
The Curator 28 Jul 05 - 04:08 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM
Big Mick 28 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM
Dave the Gnome 28 Jul 05 - 04:56 PM
The Curator 28 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 05:21 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 05:34 PM
Big Mick 28 Jul 05 - 05:35 PM
Tam the man 28 Jul 05 - 05:39 PM
The Curator 28 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM
gnu 28 Jul 05 - 07:55 PM
Tiocfaidh 28 Jul 05 - 08:13 PM
Kaleea 28 Jul 05 - 08:28 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Jul 05 - 08:43 PM
alanabit 29 Jul 05 - 03:15 AM
alanabit 29 Jul 05 - 04:42 AM
GUEST 29 Jul 05 - 07:01 AM
alanabit 29 Jul 05 - 08:32 AM
GUEST 29 Jul 05 - 09:09 AM
The Curator 29 Jul 05 - 03:13 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 29 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM
Peace 29 Jul 05 - 04:57 PM
The Curator 29 Jul 05 - 05:00 PM
Bunnahabhain 29 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM
GUEST,JTT 30 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM
The Curator 30 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM
Big Mick 30 Jul 05 - 10:37 PM
John O'L 30 Jul 05 - 11:28 PM
Jimmy C 30 Jul 05 - 11:49 PM
Big Mick 31 Jul 05 - 12:06 AM
alanabit 31 Jul 05 - 05:26 AM
Tam the man 31 Jul 05 - 07:49 AM
Tam the man 31 Jul 05 - 07:54 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 31 Jul 05 - 07:56 AM
Divis Sweeney 31 Jul 05 - 08:10 AM
alanabit 31 Jul 05 - 12:36 PM
GUEST,JTT 31 Jul 05 - 01:42 PM
ard mhacha 31 Jul 05 - 02:45 PM
alanabit 31 Jul 05 - 03:09 PM
Peace 31 Jul 05 - 04:06 PM
ard mhacha 31 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM
Peace 31 Jul 05 - 05:27 PM
Peace 31 Jul 05 - 05:31 PM
The Curator 31 Jul 05 - 06:04 PM
Peace 31 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM
Peace 31 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM
GUEST 31 Jul 05 - 07:30 PM
Divis Sweeney 31 Jul 05 - 07:58 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 31 Jul 05 - 09:11 PM
alanabit 01 Aug 05 - 03:58 AM
ard mhacha 01 Aug 05 - 05:59 AM
ard mhacha 01 Aug 05 - 06:04 AM
GUEST,JTT 01 Aug 05 - 06:19 AM
ard mhacha 01 Aug 05 - 10:11 AM
Tam the man 01 Aug 05 - 10:42 AM
DougR 01 Aug 05 - 01:31 PM
Divis Sweeney 01 Aug 05 - 02:52 PM
The Curator 01 Aug 05 - 03:06 PM
GUEST,Tremodt 01 Aug 05 - 09:36 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 01 Aug 05 - 09:45 PM
Divis Sweeney 01 Aug 05 - 10:50 PM
GUEST 02 Aug 05 - 12:17 AM
GUEST,Ooh-Aah2 02 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM
ard mhacha 02 Aug 05 - 05:16 AM
The Curator 02 Aug 05 - 06:01 AM
The Curator 02 Aug 05 - 06:07 AM
Divis Sweeney 02 Aug 05 - 09:05 AM
GUEST 02 Aug 05 - 12:06 PM
DougR 02 Aug 05 - 04:40 PM
The Curator 02 Aug 05 - 05:06 PM
Divis Sweeney 02 Aug 05 - 05:51 PM
The Curator 02 Aug 05 - 05:51 PM
Divis Sweeney 02 Aug 05 - 07:18 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 02 Aug 05 - 07:56 PM
Divis Sweeney 02 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM
ard mhacha 03 Aug 05 - 01:31 PM
The Curator 03 Aug 05 - 05:21 PM
Peace 03 Aug 05 - 05:47 PM
The Curator 04 Aug 05 - 06:11 AM
GUEST 04 Aug 05 - 07:18 AM
The Curator 04 Aug 05 - 07:50 AM
ard mhacha 04 Aug 05 - 07:55 AM
The Curator 04 Aug 05 - 08:09 AM
Peace 04 Aug 05 - 05:30 PM
The Curator 05 Aug 05 - 05:15 AM
GUEST,Tír Eoghain 09 Aug 05 - 12:38 PM
The Curator 09 Aug 05 - 02:59 PM
Wolfgang 18 Aug 05 - 06:23 PM
The Curator 19 Aug 05 - 04:30 PM
Wolfgang 23 Aug 05 - 06:21 AM
Tiocfaidh 23 Aug 05 - 11:41 AM
The Curator 24 Aug 05 - 07:24 AM
Wolfgang 05 Oct 06 - 12:35 PM
Divis Sweeney 05 Oct 06 - 12:40 PM
GUEST,Anony Mouse 07 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM
Divis Sweeney 07 Oct 06 - 02:10 PM
GUEST 07 Oct 06 - 02:52 PM
GUEST,Anony Mouse 07 Oct 06 - 03:02 PM
GUEST,Anony Mouse 07 Oct 06 - 03:25 PM
Divis Sweeney 07 Oct 06 - 03:30 PM
GUEST 07 Oct 06 - 04:17 PM
GUEST,Anony Mouse 07 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM
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GUEST 07 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM
GUEST,Anony Mouse 07 Oct 06 - 05:26 PM
GUEST,Anony Mouse 07 Oct 06 - 05:34 PM
Divis Sweeney 07 Oct 06 - 05:39 PM
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Keith A of Hertford 08 Oct 06 - 04:55 AM
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Subject: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Den
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:51 AM

There was some discussion about this on the loyalist weapons thread but I felt it deserved a thread of its own for discussion. For those who would like you can read the full statement HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Mrr
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:53 AM

What is this going to do to Irish music, is what I want to know!


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:59 AM

Excellent idea, Den

Oh I think 'The Mountain Road', and 'The Crosses of Annagh' will still sound the same...

I haven't heard a 'new' rebel song in years...


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM

I thought it was an important historical watershed; but I have been disappointed before.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:07 AM

The Mountain Road'

What is it with you and roads?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: pdq
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM

They can still sing about leprechauns, sex and drinking!


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:11 AM

You travel them, Shakey, on the way to your destination...


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:14 AM

Naw, you're right, Amos.

... isn't worth the paper its written on...

Let's forget it all then, shall we?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:15 AM

Fair enough. I'll drop the roads thing.

S'pose I should say something serious but I've said it on the other thread.

Anyway it's is a Good Thing


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM

With such an outlook amos it's dificult to see how you've been disappointed.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:18 AM

Outlook express?

One word, four letters


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:20 AM

One letter four words

Dear sir, yours faithfully.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:24 AM

Amen?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:25 AM

Maybe Amos is remembering Canary Wharf, but I don't think anything like that is going to happen this time round. It's great news. Bravo Adams and McGuinness.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:26 AM

Amos methinks


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Chonaill
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:29 AM

That was after a 17 month ceasefire, and no statement of 'cessation of the armed struggle'

Comparing apples with motor cars again, Peter K?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:34 AM

... some people will hang on to anything...

Mailed your MP yet on the Loyalist weapons issue, PK?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:35 AM

Comparing apples with motor cars again, Peter K?

To be fair he said "but I don't think anything like that is going to happen this time round. It's great news. Bravo Adams and McGuinness."

Give the guy the benefit eh?

I think we need to look for what we can agree with not which divides, not today at least.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Shakey
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:50 AM

Refreshing !


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:19 PM

The news is dead flat here, we know they have retired a long time ago, it`s the drug barons on the loyalist side battling over their patches that is is the problem, and despite muder and secterian attacks on Catholic homes and Churches, being completely ignored by the Brit media.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:21 PM

Article here (Voice of America News).


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:22 PM

Geeze, guys; I am an outsider, and was simply commenting. I hope with all my heart this is true and permanent. I consider it good news.

Peace,


A


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:24 PM

We have heard it all before, we want to see some proof that they have really done this. And what has this got to do with Loyalist, it's the IRA we are talking about. But if the IRA really mean it this time then good on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:38 PM

And for Tir Eoghain

i'll go back to sleep again

ZZZZZ


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:40 PM

We have heard it all before, we want to see some proof that they have really done this

Do you now?
Anything else?

Be grateful for what you have, Tam.
Remember how lightly y'all got off ;-)

Sorry Amos, couldn't resist it, what with the crossword thread and all of that... ;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 01:41 PM

... to late, he's off again....


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:02 PM

I have to agree with Amos in that many organizations world wide have made the statement that they'd end armed strugge and circumstances have then caused an aboutface. I too hope it's not the case with the IRA. What would be a giant step toward peace in Ireland--however you all define it (Ireland)--would be for the other faction to lay down its arms also. It would sure make the process easier and give the move by the IRA a greater chance of success. The best to all of you.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: jacqui.c
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

This sounds like good news although I would agree with Peace - both sides need to agree, otherwise the violence will still be there.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

That's the problem, you feckin ninny. All you want to talk about is the IRA and never mind what the Loyalist bunch are doing.

I, for one, am put off by these dolts who act like this is some watershed and something new. Have you been paying attention throughout the process????? Once again it is the Republicans who are making the steps for peace, once again the Loyalists and their minions are acting as though they have nothing to do with this. The Republicans have been upholding the peace process in the face of repeated attacks for a number of years.

Good on ya, lads.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:09 PM

I take that you don't like people that are different to you or hold different views, you are one nasty peice of work.

You still haven't answered the question about what this has to do with the loyalist weapons.

and why don't you become a member instead of being a coward ie guest.

Ach well never mind talking to you is like talking to a sewer full of crap.

I'll go back to sleep now

Tam


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:12 PM

The Repulicans have been upholding the peace, tell that to the McCartney family


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:15 PM

This bloody stupid we're behaving like stupid children, let bygones by bygones, and let's forgive and forget eh!

Tam


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:22 PM

In case you hadn't noticed Tam, it wasn't "the Republicans" that killed McCartney. Were I to hold the British Security forces and the Loyalist factions to the same standard, I could blame most things on "Brits" or "Prods". Your use of that example makes my point.

Having said all of that, good for these folks for once again going the extra mile for peace. What will Paisley and his ilk use for an excuse now?

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 02:29 PM

I was lead to believe that it was the IRA that killed him, are they not republicans?
McCartney (murder victim)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.
Robert McCartney (1971 – 31 January 2005) was the victim of a murder in Belfast, in Northern Ireland, carried out by members of the Provisional Irish Republican Army. He was a father of two and was engaged to be married in June 2005 to his long-term partner. He was a Roman Catholic and lived in the predominantly nationalist Short Strand area of Belfast and was known to be a supporter of Sinn Féin, which is closely linked to the IRA. His killing by IRA members has had extensive political repercussions for Sinn Féin as many people have expressed revulsion to the crime in a way not seen before. Opinion polls, all over Ireland, showed a dip in support for Sinn Fein after the murder, and Sinn Féin lost their council seat in the Short Strand in the recent elections.




Contents [hide]
1 The fight
2 Investigation
3 Political fallout
4 External link



[edit]
The fight
Robert McCartney was involved in a fight in a bar — Magennis's — in May Street, in the centre of Belfast, on the night of 30 January 2005. He was found unconscious with stab wounds in Cromac Street and died in hospital the following morning.

According to Robert's family, the fight arose from his friend Brendan Devine having been accused by members of the IRA of making an insulting gesture or comment to a woman in their company. When Devine refused to accept this or apologise, a brawl began. The IRA men dragged them into Verner Street and beat and stabbed them. Devine also suffered a knife attack, but survived.

It was claimed by the family that the killers issued a threat to all those present not to discuss or report what they had seen. No ambulance was called and the bar was quickly cleaned to destroy forensic evidence. Film from security cameras was removed and destroyed.

[edit]
Investigation
When the Police Service of Northern Ireland (PSNI) launched a murder investigation they were met with a "wall of silence", with none of the estimated 72 witnesses to the altercation coming forward with information, although this is not an unusual attitude among nationalists who have mixed views of the new police force. In conversations with family members, many potential witnesses claimed to have been in the pub's toilets at the time of the attacks; this led to the toilets being dubbed as the TARDIS, after the time machine in the television series Doctor Who which is much bigger on the inside than on the outside.

Police carrying out search operations in the nationalist Short Strand and Markets areas of Belfast in connection with the investigation were attacked with stones and missiles. Cars were set on fire and some police officers were injured. Such treatment of the police by young nationalists is in no way unusual in Belfast. Several people, including a senior republican figure, were arrested. Sinn Féin claimed that the investigation was being used as an excuse to disrupt the community and accused the PSNI of heavy-handedness. Over a thousand people attended a vigil in memory of McCartney five days after his murder. A similar number attended his funeral.

McCartney's family were among those who publicly stated their belief that Provisional IRA members were responsible for the silence surrounding the murder, with his sister saying, "their cover-up and their clean-up operation afterwards was meticulous." The IRA admitted this some weeks later and expelled three members. Mark Durkan of the moderate nationalist Social Democratic and Labour Party also accused the IRA of orchestrating a cover-up, claiming that the "full force of the IRA has been used to intimidate witnesses and prevent the killers from being brought to justice."




[edit]
Political fallout
However, Gerry Adams, the President of Sinn Féin, urged witnesses to come forward to "the family, a solicitor, or any other authoritative or reputable person or body," also saying, "I want to make it absolutely clear that no one involved acted as a republican or on behalf of republicans." He suspended seven members of Sinn Féin. This stops short of asking witnesses to contact the police directly with information and this approach is consistent with the long standing position of Sinn Féin and tens of thousands of Irish nationalists who have no confidence in the police in Northern Ireland, whether it be the PSNI or its predecessor the RUC. The usefulness of making witness statements to the victim's family or to a solicitor was derided by the McCartneys and by a prominent lawyer and SDLP politician, Alban Maginness, soon afterwards.

Such reference to the Sinn Féin political agenda in response to what was a passionate plea for justice from Robert's family was seen by some to be insensitive at best and potentially indicative of something much more sinister. One opinion piece on this subject from Trudy Rubin of The Philadelphia Inquirer even asks "Has the IRA `morphed into the mob'?" The McCartney family have remained quite firm that they do not wish to become involved in the long political debate over police sectarianism but that their sole aim is legitimate justice administered through due legal process and this is being denied because witnesses are being intimidated by people connected with the IRA and Sinn Féin.

For their part, the PSNI stated that they did not believe the IRA had sanctioned the killing, and that it was carried out by IRA members independently of the organisation's leadership. They later claimed that a very senior IRA man was involved in the murder. The victim's family shared this assessment, claiming that it was the unnamed senior figure who ordered the killing. Gerry Kelly, a Sinn Féin member of the Northern Ireland Assembly, accepted that witness intimidation had occurred, but like Adams he did not call for witnesses to talk to the PSNI. Instead he encouraged those with information to give it to the Police Ombudsman.

On 16 February the IRA issued a statement denying involvement in the murder and calling on the perpetrators to "take responsibility". McCartney's family welcomed this, but insisted that intimidation and threats had come "from the highest level of Sinn Féin and IRA". Gerry Kelly denied that this had been the case.

The McCartney family has stated that a total of 20 individuals were involved with the murder.

The murder came amidst controversy following the Northern Bank robbery of December 2004, in which £26.5 million was stolen from a bank in Belfast. The belief that this had been carried out by the IRA is widely held, and many lamented that the scandal surrounding alleged IRA involvement in this kind of criminality had overshadowed the scandal surrounding the possibility that its members had killed a man in a pub brawl for no good reason, or had at least tried to cover up the circumstances of his death. The murder and its aftermath resulted in a strong backlash against the IRA in the Short Strand area of East Belfast, a nationalist enclave in an overwhelmingly unionist area. The area is traditionally regarded as strongly republican, due in part to its "siege mentality" and history of attacks by unionists, from which the IRA had defended the community.

On 8 March the IRA issued an unprecedented statement saying that they had made an offer to McCartney's family to shoot the members involved in the murder. The family made it clear that they wanted the people concerned prosecuted, not physically harmed.

On 9 March, the Daily Mail named the following men as three of the four men, all members of the Belfast Brigade, whom the PIRA offered to shoot in retaliation for the murder of Robert McCartney - Jim "Dim" McCormack, Gerard "Jock" Davison and Gerard Montgomery. The Mail stated that McCormack, aged about 42, is the Officer Commanding (OC) of the Belfast Brigade of the IRA. It also stated that Davison, 41, is a current and senior member of the Belfast Brigade, and its former OC. According to the Mail, Montgomery — whom it showed in a crowd photograph — is also a long standing PIRA member, and has acted as a bodyguard to both Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. All three men have close ties with Gerry Adams.

The Mail also stated that both McCormack and Montgomery shot and killed UFF members and renowned killers of Catholics Joe Bratty and Raymond Elder in the months running up to the 1994 ceasefire. These murders apparently 'made' them amongst Belfast Republicans, and enshrined their reputations as "hard men".

Virtually the same statements were made in the Irish Daily Mirror and the Irish Times, with only the Daily Mail actually naming the men.

In the days running up to 9th March, Davison had made a number of comments posted in Irish and British newspapers denying all and any involvement in the murder of Robert McCartney.

All five McCartney sisters and his partner expressly rejected the IRA's offer to shoot the men, and again asked that the IRA lift their threats against witnesses to McCartney's murder, allowing them to testify to the PSNI. Their cousin, Gerry Quinn, stated that McCartney's family wanted "justice, not revenge."

Since this time, the sisters of Robert McCartney have maintained an increasingly public campaign for justice (through the legal process) which saw Martin McGuinness make a public pronouncement that the sisters should be careful that they were not being manipulated for political ends (this was reported by many news agencies, including the BBC on 14 March 2005). This was interpreted by some as a veiled threat towards the McCartney family.

The McCartney family travelled to the United States during the 2005 St Patrick's Day celebrations where they were met by US Senators and US President George W. Bush who expressed 100% support in their campaign for justice. Meanwhile Gerry Adams was noticeably shunned by politicians, especially Senator Ted Kennedy, who had previously welcomed Adams in an attempt to assist the Peace Process in Northern Ireland.

On May 5, Terence Davison and James McCormick were remanded in custody, charged with murdering McCartney and attempting to murder Devine respectively. Terence Davison is the uncle of Gerard 'Jock' Davison.

Explain that Big MIck.

Anyway as I say let bygones be bygones.

Forgive and forget eh!

Tam


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:34 PM

We have heard it all before

When have we heard anything like this before, Tam?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:42 PM

Did you read it before you cut and pasted it, Tam?

But, it is important now not to get any further into this argument. This is a good day for the peace process and puts the ball squarely into the obstructionists court.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 03:44 PM

Guys guys, guys. Everybody take a deeeeeeeep breath. The IRA has offered to lay down its weapons. Maybe we can follow their example.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:08 PM

Regarding the McCartney murder you refer to the IRA men taking him out kill him. Those involved in this action were not acting as a unit of the Provisional Irish Republican Army, please stop putting it across as if they were. Regarding the statement, many have mixed views about it. But we all have to stand by the leadership's decision. It's a sad time for many tonight, when they recall the loss of loved ones. And that's on all sides. Much thought went into this statement and it's the combined views of all active service units who have been involved in today's outcome for the past two months.It is over make no doubt about that. I watch with interest as the UVF & UDA both said they exist because of the Republican threat through an armed struggle. There is a serious turf war going on at present here between them over control of drug ridden areas. approx 36 families connected to those involved have been put out of their homes in the past eight days.Many may not agree with me, but I feel we had a just cause over the past 35 years. I lived here all my life and can remember in the 1960's catholics not being allowed to own a house, get work or a vote. The British government ingored these basic rights and from that grew a generation that fought for it.I am not going into the debate of, this one died and that one died. We all lost great friends and none of us were without fault. Sad we had to rise to this, but that's the way it was.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM

Best news I have heard for ages. My fear is that the loyalist faction will now begin the taunts and jeers. Trying to tell people that they have forced the republicans to give up. Trying to say that they have 'won' against the opposition. That they will push and push and push until some poor kid in a republican area has had so much that they 'snap'.

Lets make sure it doesn't happen. Keep up the pressure on the Government. I for one will follow up my letter to Hazel Blears (see the loyalist disarm thread) especialy now she is climbing the ladder in the home office! Make sure that the loyalists not only disarm but follow the peace process in spirit as well as action.

It takes a brave man to admit he was wrong. The IRA have done the bravest thing I have seen them do today. Lets not let the nay-sayers and cowards who want to keep to the old ways have their way.

Good luck to you all.

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:50 PM

Yeah, Curator. I just didn't think I should have to take him by the hand. Tam doesn't seem to be able, or willing, to make the distinction between a couple of IRA men committing an act, and an operation by the IRA against a target.

Time to give this a chance, lad/lass. The UVF/UDA folks must be panicked this night. As I said above, the ball is squarely in the obstructionist's court. I am hoping that they don't do what they traditionally have done, and try to sabotage this thing using the pogrom methods they used before.

For the children of the North, I pray this move brings the desired result.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:56 PM

Perhaps, on a musical and happy note, we can now see Anthony John Clarks wish come true now when he sings

I want to eat at the same table, break the same bread
March down the same streets, hear the same bands
Sing the same songs, say the same prayers
Together we can mend the broken years.


One of my favourite songs about the troubles:-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:06 PM

Thanks gentlemen, no there has also been a lot of thought put into obstruction via any means. Sadly the loyalist people have enough on their plate at present. Thanks.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

OK.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:21 PM

Let's agree to disagree.

Up the Republic


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:34 PM

I mean the Scottish Republic
as I say let us agree to disagree

Tam.

We could argue forever about this.

So let bygones be bygones, and let both sides get together and talk about peace in Northern Ireland.

Tam


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:35 PM

It's a deal. To there and no further.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:39 PM

Thank you very much.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 06:58 PM

Would work lads, great to see you two pals.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: gnu
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:55 PM

Amen.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:13 PM

Good man Dave the Gnome, and fair play to you Brucie!

... and just like Coke...
... It is the real thing..

The Establishment are just going through the last involuntary muscle movements of expiration, and a fella ain't gonna stand over the remains and crow.

Let's sing a new song instead:

Ready Tam?
Tam?

TAMMMMMM?

Ok
H-all together now,
1,2,3,4,

'Who do you think you are kidding, Mr. Paisley?
De-comm-iss-ion-ing's begun!
You tell your boys to sit down and think again;
to lay down their swords, and to learn to use a pen.
SO, who do you think you are kidding Mr. Paisley?
The onus now is on the Hun'
Dee dee, dee dee, dee dee, DEE!

Tiocfaidh ar lá

Good night and thank you for listening...


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Kaleea
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:28 PM

Ummm, I think this thread is about the end of fighting, yes? Well, I guess if the 2 sides only fuss with words, no one dies from guns or bombs.

    To guestMrr-- Have you ever heard an Irish ballad sung? Did you understand the lyrics? If you're still wondering what this subject has to do with Music, Irish or otherwhere, I suggest you visit the digital tradition & take a tiptoe through the lyrics. The pain of war is the subject of many, many ballads the world over.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:43 PM

Mrr actually didn't "has this to do with Irish Music", but "what will this do to Irish music". Which is a very different question and a much more interesting one.

There was a time the same drummers would sometimes put on different colours and play in both Ancient Order of Hibernian marches and Orange Order parades, on the quiet (if that's a term that be be used in reference to lambeg drummers...). Maybe those times will come again, down this road.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:15 AM

Getting any gunmen off the streets is good news. Let's hope that the UDA rabble and associated bigots will also quickly dsappear - forever.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:42 AM

Like my missing "i"...?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 07:01 AM

If this statement hadn't been issued, where would the IRA have gone from here? The reaction (esp the US Govt) to them following the McCartney murder played it's part in this decision. Why bang a drum when the audience are walking away.

After 30 years of violence, where their aim of a united Ireland was never met, they think the way forward is to talk. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 08:32 AM

When we post to potentially emotive threads like this one, we put our name or psuesonym to sign our posts. I frequently disagree with Ard Mhacha and The Curator over these issues, but give me them anyday rather than someone who lobs in a petrol bomb anonymously and then scarpers.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:09 AM

How very dramatic.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:13 PM

GUEST We will get our aims met. I stood and watched the army take down their look out posts today. One came over near me to photograph it and shouted over we will being gong next.Troop levels to drop within the next few weeks. Your beloved unionists must be foaming at the mouth. And yes we did ask to get our comrade out before the statement was read and we did, we also asked for special branch to go, troop levels to drop within days and a few other things which you will read about. It's great we were refused nothing. All part of our plan. Go cry to your M.P.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:37 PM

Well said in that first post Curator. Are you telling us in the last post that you're in the Provos? I didn't think in was the normal form to be explicit about such matters.

Ard Mhacha may have seen little reaction on the streets of Lurgan, and for sure we all knew this was coming from the early days of the McCartney fiasco. But across the whole island it is going to have far-reaching and wholly positive consequences, some of which the Curator has already seen. And the pressure of international opinion is now going to be fair-and-square on the loyalists.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:57 PM

Two guys fighting. One says he's had enough. If the other guy keeps swinging, everyone knows where the problem REALLY is.

I have never admired the IRA, nor have I ever admired the UVF/UDA. I have however understood the perceived 'necessities' on both sides of that equation. Now, one side is gone. The ball is definitely in the other guy's court. To quote Bob Dylan, "Time will tell just who has fell and who's been left behind--when you go your way and I go mine." I am reminded also of the old line, "What if they held a war and nobody came?"

Here's to the people of the Emerald Isle--it's about time.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:00 PM

Good evening Peter hope your well,It wasn't the PSNI playing with the McCartney sisters that brought the council to yesterday's statement. This has been talked about since 1998. It was the last two elections that brought us all to the position we are now in.Sinn Fein showed everyone what they could do.I think the loyalists will also disband, but there are issues within their estates that are serious at this moment in time.The leadership has enough to worry about. Nobody should push them for the moment.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 06:18 PM

The IRA rejecting violence is a very good thing. May all the other parties involved follow them.

I think, and hope this is a move from a desire for peace and progress, and not as a result of the London Transport bombings reminding everyone of what terrorism is.

Gaudete, gaudete!

Tempus adest gratiae,
Hoc quod optabamus
Carmina laetitiae
Devote redamus.

Tx:( Rejoice, Rejoice,

The time of grace has come for which we have prayed;
Let us devoutly sing songs of joy.)


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:06 AM

The killing of Robert McCartney was (or so I've read) done by members of the IRA.

But to say that this means "the IRA killed him" is a bit like saying "the US Army rapes children in the Philippines" because individual soldiers do so.

Anyone wants to watch the video of the statement (in English only, by the way), it's here


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:17 AM

Good point GUEST,JTT


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 10:37 PM

It is the point I was making. Thanks for stating it clearly.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: John O'L
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:28 PM

The announcement is something that wasn't there previously. It's more than nothing. Sooner or later even the most hateful must realize that killing hasn't worked for anybody, and be prepared to try living.

It's time for many to do a lot of forgetting. Well past time actually.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Jimmy C
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 11:49 PM

The statement from the I.R.A. is very welcome and encouraging, however, there are two sides to every coin and given that the I.R.A. has adhered to their ceasefire since 1998, and given that they have had three successive arms dumpings (all witnessed as per the Good Friday Agreement) and also considring that there has been nothing even coming close to matching their efforts from the loyalist camps,I can guarantee that the loyalist politicians will keep harping about the declaration NOT BEING ENOUGH, NOT BEING CLEAR ENOUGH, NOT BEING THIS AND NOT BEING THAT. In short the declaration from the I.R.A will mean zilch if there is no movement from the loyalists. All we have heard of late is the McCartney murder while three protestants have been killed by loyalists during the past 2 weeks and hardly a word about it. The I.R.A. has taken a major step towards power sharing, thay also have not given up the dream of a United Ireland, but I am sorry to say that in the end, even with a nationalist majority ( when it comes) the guns will have to come out. I know enough loyalists and have been friends with many, I even have some relatives who are loyalists and believe me they will not go into a united Ireland without a fight. They will do all they can to delay power sharing, even if the I.R.A was to disband, they will not willingly sit down with nationalists. I think it is about time for the British Government to lay down the law once and for all to the unionists. Play ball or be left out of the game. However even the longest journey starts with one step and the I.R.A. has taken a mighty stride this week, lets hope it leads to something positive and constructive, so that the next generation of Irish children do not have to go through another thirty odd years of killings and bombings.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Big Mick
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 12:06 AM

Yep, that is the fact. It has not, in the last 7 years, been the Nationalists who are the problem. And I believe that this will become evident very soon. This move by the IRA is a brilliant stroke. As I said, it puts the ball squarely in the court of the obstructionists. It gives Downing Street the ability to force the issue.

Well done, lads.

Mick


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:26 AM

Mick, I don't think Nationalists or Ulstermen in themselves have ever been the problem. It has just been very difficult for ordinary people of either "side" to envisage making peace, when there is a risk that the father will be shot in front of the children at Sunday dinner. (The UDA and the IRA both did this in the past). Peace does seem to be within reach - although it is still some way off - and yes, the weapons of the UDA and attendant splinter groups have to go as well. Has there been any monitoring of that? Maybe the Nationalist community could press harder on that issue. They should have a good chance of forcing it. If their guns have gone away, they can demand their rights as a simple issue of law and order.
At the end of the day, the problems of Northern Ireland will be solved by the communities who live there. The British can't solve them. If I were in a position of power, I would be tempted to light a fire under the Ulster Protestants' behinds, by telling them that they had (say) two years you make peace with their neighbours. Then, if they had not reached a workable agreement, they would have full independence - whether they wanted it or not. Believe me, very few Brits on the mainland have a deep sentimental yearning to keep Ulster within the UK!


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:49 AM

you always get the idoits, but why bother with them.

I am a republican I don't like Ian Paisley, I hate the man, However he's has his views and I have mine.

Tam


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:54 AM

I am not a unionist, or anything else, So how is the bigot now. I am neither Prostestant or Catholic I am a born again Christian.

We have a joke here in Scotland

A group of buddists arrive in Scotland and they are in Glasgow and two men ask them what their religion was and they said Buddists, and the two men say are you Protestant or Catholic Buddists.

Tam


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:56 AM

Sounds like you've lost the plot completely, alanabit. Anyway, independence/secession etc was never going to be for the "mainland" to decide. It's a matter for the people on that little offshore island.

It's taken 13 years from the Downing Street declaration to get this far. Let's be patient a little while longer. Peace comes dropping slow.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 08:10 AM

Just a quick note, alanabit...When refering to the Nationalists in the north of Ireland, please keep in mind that just because they hold that specific political ideal does not mean that they are part of, involved with or even support the IRA. Granted, some do, but saying:

"Maybe the Nationalist community could press harder on that issue. They should have a good chance of forcing it. If their guns have gone away, they can demand their rights as a simple issue of law and order" gives me the impression that you think all Nationalists are members of a militant group.

Cheers to your comments though on what you would do if you were in a position of power...

E


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 12:36 PM

I don't think all Nationalists support the IRA at all. In fact I know they do not. Some years ago, when a group of "hard men" were frequenting the "Tinnef" in Cologne, they were shunned by the Irish community here, who were essentially Nationalists to a man (and woman).
I am a little baffled as to where you think I have lost the plot completely Peter. In the first sentence sentence of my previous post, I tried to make it clear that I was trying not to be judgemental. I am aware that the sectarianism is so deeply embedded in the culture of many people, that finding solutions was always going to be difficult. As long as those aims were pursued through violence, it was nigh on impossible. Removing violence in itself will not solve all the problems, but it will make it considerably less difficult to pursue solutions. As regards your final sentence, I couldn't agree more.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:42 PM

People change, and it's my perception that unionists, and even loyalists, are a *lot* less hostile to the idea of a 32-county Republic than they were even 10 years ago, much less 20 or 30 or 40.

There was the same kind of divide in the Republic of Ireland at the time of the formation of the Free State; the numbers were not so evenly balanced (I think it's something like 55% Protestant, 45% Catholic now in Northern Ireland) - but even so, the Protestant population was significant and was influential and wealthy.

Many left; those who stayed contributed hugely to the country's industry and administration, and still do so.

There are figures floating around that show the Protestant population as having plunged, but as I understand it, these are based on misunderstandings of the census figures, which were all-Ireland figures before the Free State (1922-today) but Republic-of-Ireland-only figures from 1922 on; this artificially made it appear that the Protestant population had plunged, since the northern counties are more heavily populated with Protestants.

*If* the result of a 32-county Republic was to produce inequality and injustice towards the Protestant population, then of course the guns would come out. Otherwise, I doubt it.

After all, the 'armed struggle' had fallen virtually silent in the 1960s; it only revived when thousands of Catholics were burned out, driven from their homes and refused civil rights in the late 1960s.

Mostly people become violent as a last resort.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 02:45 PM

Jimmy C is right, I can NEVER see the day when Paisley Robinson and the rest of the DUP will ever agree to sit down with Adams and co and using the language of diplomats discuss their problems in a reasonable manner.

It just wont happen, to reason with Paisley is impossible, I can still hear the loud guldering voice shouting, "NEEVARR,NEEVARR,NEEVARR, when he was asked would the day come when he would sit down with Sein Fein and work out a power sharing arrangment.

Again I agree with Jimmy C, the Unionists will never agree to a united Ireland, even when they eventually become the minority, despite the fact that the economy of the six northern Counties are third world in comparsion to the Irish republic.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 03:09 PM

Ian Paisley will not live forever. I may not be alone in hoping that a lot of his unpleasantness will depart with him.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:06 PM

Hear, hear!


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 04:14 PM

Alanabit and Peace, do you not know that his son Ian Paisley JR is regarded as being less accommodating than his father.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:27 PM

MY GAWD! Looks like y'all have yer own home-grown Jerry Falwell, ard. If you are not familiar with Falwell, look here.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:31 PM

Just a bit off topic here--but not much. What were the names of the two women who (I think were nominated or maybe received the Nobel Peace Prize) tried to make peace so many years ago? I recall that one was Protestant and the other Catholic.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 06:04 PM

Betty Williams and Maread Farrell. They got the money, one divorced her husband and got a younger model, the other married her brother in law. The Peace people.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 06:10 PM

Thank you, Curator. Been bugging me for a day or two.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 06:22 PM

Ard,

From what I've read on a few internet sites, Ian Paisley seems to be very--how shall I say this so as not to get people riled again . . . uh, --got it! Maybe I just shouldn't say it.

Do you think there is a real chance for peace to 'breakout' in Ireland?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:30 PM

I remember Paisley screaming at us, red faced and tendons bulging, as we walked into a cathedral for a service. We were a class of 13 yr old schoolgirls. I have no idea why he was there, there must have been another reason and we just happened to pass by.

"You're leading them into the gates of hell."

    at 4000 decibels to Sister Myra ( not someone you would raise your voice to ordinarily, for fear of a blackboard rubber hitting you with the velocity of a high powered fire arm). It didn't have the desired effect. Although he got some kudos for not being mortally afraid of Sister Myra, we p**sed ourselves laughing at the mad man.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 07:58 PM

It's unbelievable to me...yet I don't know why I'm shocked about your story...


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 09:11 PM

Ard, never mind the northern protestants, what makes you think the Republic's catholics would want a united Ireland? Their economy is transformed, as you pointed out. Why jeopardise that by bringing upwards of a million belligerent prods into the equation? (Those religious labels are just lazy shorthand on my part. I'm delighted to see religion fast losing its grip on both communities.)

Alanabit, it was the idea of threatening the Ulster loyalists with full independence that I found a bit ludicrous. A surefire recipe for mayhem, and - as I said - it's not for the Brits to decide anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: alanabit
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 03:58 AM

Peter, when you look at the number of initiatives which have floundered on the the Unionists intransigence, it would make me feel a whole lot better if a UK government told them that they did not have a blank cheque on their resources. In my lifetime I can recall the Major government clinging on by appeasing the Unionists. There have been other examples of the tail wagging the dog like that too. I do realise that the constitutional status of Northern Ireland is for its own people to decide. However, if some Irish want to stay in the UK, I think the UK deserves a say in that too. For many years, certain bigots were able to lob stones, bombs whatever at their neighbours and then hide behind British soldiers when retaliation came. I don't want to disenfranchise the Ulster Unionists (admittedly a recipe for disaster), but I would like to see the end of their rarified status.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 05:59 AM

Peter they are not all free staters, you and your other Irish friends may look down your noses at northern Nationalists, but do remember I also have met with a hell of a lot of southern and Donegal people[well it is the most northerly county] and they are true republicans.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:04 AM

And a wee PS to my last post, every survey on a united Ireland carried out in the republics newspapers has resulted in an overwhelming vote for Irish unity.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 06:19 AM

Peace, peace has broken out in Ireland a long time ago! The IRA has not been on campaign for years and years.

There have been "punishment beatings" - a crude method of controlling such crimes as "joyriding" (car theft followed by racing the car around the streets then burning it out), and drug dealing. Punishment beatings are when a bunch of thugs force their way into the home of a teenager and beat him or her with baseball bats, nail-spiked clubs and so on.

These thugs are generally republicans; this is the method of policing they choose in rough areas where the police are considered to be outsiders.

Asked about this, Northern republicans tend to say "Well, what can you do - crime has to be controlled some way in rough areas."

And there is absolutely no way that the police in their current form - seen by many/most republicans in the North as a foreign, enemy force committed to serve the Unionists - are going to be called to help.

The history of the police in the North includes many instances of police officers leaking information to loyalist murderers, at the very least. In some cases the police have themselves murdered republicans.

So this one issue - the punishment beatings - is the most difficult facing republicans in the North of Ireland. They must either turn to trusting the PSNI (Police Service of Northern Ireland, formerly the RUC, an overwhelmingly Protestant and unionist force) or learn to police republican areas through positive action to offer choices to rebellious youths, rather than violence.

Considering that many of the people who've grown up with the IRA are themselves from an impoverished background not rich in choices, this is going to be difficult.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:11 AM

Strange that during the recent rioting in Belfast during the Orange parades, Father Troy and Gerry Adams acting as peace keepers during the rioting had the water hoses turned on them, changed my ass, the PSNI are just a clone of the RUC.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tam the man
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:42 AM

Why doesn't republcans and loyalists trust each other instead of slagging each other off, sit around the table a talk. I mean is that not possible, or am I just talking crap as normal?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: DougR
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 01:31 PM

I think it is a very hopeful sign that there may yet be peace in Northern Ireland.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 02:52 PM

"The PSNI are just a clone of the RUC."

Unfortunately for the people of the six counties, you are correct, ard mhacha.

E


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 03:06 PM

Listening and reading with interest. As for those in the Irish Republic not being interested in Irish unity ! I spent the best part of the year going around these counties and believe me, anyone would be proud at the numbers we see there. And our speakers are not having to ask the people to support us in our wish for unity, it comes from the floor. Christ, even one local priest said he would be pleased such numbers in his chapel of a Sunday. Take it from the desire is there. Some of the most sucessful active service units were from the Irish republic, we didn't have to go down and arm lock them. Yet again voices at the keyboards, we are on the ground and I am not making it up. Don't stress me today above all days, I am taking in the news that the Royal Irish Regiment home battalions are being disbanded. Another scalp thank you, B Specials 1920-70 Ulster defence Regiment 1970 -92.Royal Irish Constabulary 1922 - 2001. The Royal Irish Regiment 1992 - 2005.Thanks Mr. Blair you made us promises three weeks ago and you are proving a man of your word.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tremodt
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:36 PM

I dont think that we have to worry about the IRA it is the PIRA are they going along with this new inititive


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 09:45 PM

Tam, that's not crap, it's a perfectly reasonable question. I've been spending a fair amount of time in the Balkans in the past year or so, where people were at full-scale war with their neighbours less than 10 years ago - and I mean real, full-scale war, not the kind of disruption that the Provos called a war. Yet the progress they've made toward reconciliation is amazing. Spend a few weeks there, and you'd soon think that all the present bitterness in Northern Ireland was based on very little.

Curator, after a cracking start in this thread you seem to have slipped into childish gloating. It comes across like someone whistling for confidence, but I can't for the life of me see why you should be feeling so defensive.

Ard, I can't remember how much I've said to you so I'm not sure what you mean by the reference to my Irish friends. If you mean the Jimmy Stewarts and Roy Johnstons, I'm happy to admit that all factions made mistakes, including those that I supported. On the plus side leaders like Andy Barry always tried to oppose sectarianism, and the Stickies and CP tried to steer NICRA on a course that would not antagonise working Protestants. On the other hand, opposing the EEC as it then was, to conform with Soviet foreign policy was sheer stupidity. Well we live and learn.

You too, Ard, or you're going to find a united ireland, if it happens, a very uncomfortable place to be. On the one side there'll be all those Paisleyites you hold in contempt, and on the other, the free-stater Catholics, the ones who backed Michael Collins, whom you loathe even more. Start giving ground a bit, like everyone else is going to have to do, or you'll be overtaken by a younger generation that has no truck with petty hatreds harboured from way back.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 01 Aug 05 - 10:50 PM

Tremodt,

The Provos (PIRA) are following the leadership and doing everything that has been asked of them in order to comply with the end of the Irish Republican war. Hope that helps.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:17 AM

Disasdorous Event - for those musicians trained to rally the mob and shakeout contributions - a great gig while scrimming 60% for the work attained/and honor gained....and funelling 40 into the California Costa Mesa's Armalite

Most solicitors have been pulled in from the field.

Whoa Whoooa WWHHOOoooooooooooooooaaaaaaaaa


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Ooh-Aah2
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:06 AM

As an Englishman I just have a strong and simple hope that we get rid of the whole lousy shooting match as quickly as possible. NI may be a good place to accustom our soldiers to urban warfare conditions, but it's simply not worth the hassle and the bore of it being always in the newspapers. The sooner Ireland is reunited the better. Best of all the Irish will have less and less excuse, as the years slip by, to sing those miserable songs at us in what Spike Milligan accurately called '...that high nasal Irish tenor, known and hated the world over'.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:16 AM

Peter, You are way out with your assertion that it is only the old greybeards that harbour resentment against the Unionists.
In point of fact it is the older generation here in the north that are the peacemakers, I suppose you went out of your way to talk to the young people here, of both persuasions, if you did who did you speak to?, they just don`t mix, I can tell you I talk to Unionist friends daily and we dicuss sport, that would be impossible for the younger generation.

You are probably referring to those at University were there is more of a "getting together", it dosen`t apply in the working class areas of any large town in the north,sorry to have to say this but it just dosen`t happen.

So please don`t lecture everyone with a different opinion to your own, and those figures from the Irish Times and the Sunday Independent, [two Dublin based newspapers} the bulk of whose readers would come from a more conservative background, voted for a united Ireland, and as for living with Paisley and his religious fanatics, what do you think we have been doing for years?.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 06:01 AM

Peter, Yes I am delighted with the news that more of the demands we made have been answered, who wouldn't ? You and I are singing to the beat of a different drum. I am a Republican and dammed proud of it. If that gets to you, then so be it.I am not defensive Peter, I am there on the ground. As to the youth culture you seem to be in touch with, you must be staying up the Malone Road on your visits to Ireland. If only you knew the truth, I have been in 14 counties of Ireland since last Thursday. What I am hearing is so far away from your post. Units on the ground I am told have been refusing volunteers over the past twelve months,on both sides of the border. The swell of young men looking to join the ranks was never a problem. I imagine that to be on both sides. No recruiting occurred, yes Sinn Fein membership is sky high, that's the way we want it. As to the youth of the Irish Republic, Peter their views have never been as strong. Yes there were many that did not support our armed struggle, but now they are coming to Sinn Fein, which is our desire.As to the unionist/loyalists within the north, we can talk to them, as to the paisleyites, ten years ago they won't sit in the same buildings as us, now they do. Eight years ago they would not sit in a government building with us, and a year later they did. Five years ago they won't share local council and they now are. Last December you will never know just how close yo were to having a deal with them, can't print content sorry. That day will come again. So to your post, yes we will get our unity, yes youth who are tomorrows generation are with us and finally watch me gloat within the next two weeks for more demands being met, watch the news for this one, clue police and military.
Hope nothing I post to you causes offence. Just hold my views based on reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 06:07 AM

By the way Epona, glad to see an Irish goddess on this site, we need her !


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 09:05 AM

Saoirse. Enough said.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 12:06 PM

Disasdorous Event - for those musicians trained to rally the mob and shakeout contributions - a great gig while scrimming 60% for the work attained/and honor gained....and funelling 40 into the California Costa Mesa's Armalite

The above is from Gargoyle.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: DougR
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 04:40 PM

I read in the newspaper today that GB had announced that there would soon be a withdrawal of troops as a result of the IRA action. Another encouraging sign.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:06 PM

Doug
Bases coming down yesterday and today. All mountain watch towers going.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:51 PM

Doug,
Troop size going to drop to 5,000 from 10,500, so keep watching the news to see what else develops.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 05:51 PM

Thanks for pm Epona


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:18 PM

Of course...


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 07:56 PM

No offence to me, Curator, but you'll be sure to keep the bitterness entrenched with that kind of tone. I suppose if you'd been born a Prod you'd have been applauding Trimble and Paisley as they danced arm-in-arm down the Garvaghy Road. And you might as well face it - the biggest factor deciding whose side you're on is the accident of birth. The ones who interest me are the ones who can get into the other side's shoes and see things from the other perspective, and there are a few.

I did live on Malone Road - well a road between that and Lisburn Road - for a few months in 1973. The local newsagent wrapped my Morning Star in another paper (not paid for) if there were others in the shop, so he wouldn't be seen selling it. I knew and spoke to virtually no-one in that area and was glad to get out of it. I got my music and education in the Old House bar in Albert Street, which you may be too young to remember, and from people like Des Wilson, who inherited my piano.

Sorry if it pisses you off, but the coming generation is going to put most of the shit behind it. More and more integrated schools are being opened, and still they can't come close to meeting the rocketing demand for places. Of course, integrated education could have been the norm many years ago if the Catholic church had been prepared to forego some of its baleful influence on young minds. Now people are at last turning their backs on all organised religion anyway, providing further grounds for optimism.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 02 Aug 05 - 08:07 PM

It saddens me that you feel so apart from religion, but it is definitely an individual choice, and I admire you for deciding for yourself where you belong.

I know the phrase, "Sorry if it pisses you off," wasn't addressed to me, but I would like to share nonetheless. Integration and reunification are wonderful things because there is nothing more joyous than the Irish brotherhood coming together after so long, as it always should have been.

And in the days ahead, I pray we can see more unity as dramatic and long-awaited for changes take place within Ireland.

May God keep you, Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 01:31 PM

Regarding integrated education in the north, I went to a Catholic country school which was integrated, there were a small number of Protestant pupils and never once did i see any resenrment directed towards any of these pupils.

The numbers of integrated pupils here is 5%, sure we would all wish to see integrated education, but Peter save your some of your ire which you constantly direct towards the Catholic Church and direct it towards the arch bigot Paisley and his large Protestant following, they are the biggest critics of integrated education.

Did Des Wilson give you the impression of being a bigot, after all he was a Catholic Priest when you knew him.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 05:21 PM

Well said ard. Peter in no way did you piss me off,bitter ? no sorry I don't wear that badge either. I live here on the ground Peter, I work with a lot of protestants and respect their viewpoint and they do mine. I am a proud Republican of 45 years of age. Within that time I have seen,suffered,lost and listened. Never needed to depend on reading newspapers from afar.Last night I spoke my phone to a friend who has a lifetime involvement with Na Fianna Eireann. We did speak of the the youth culture and how so much has changed. I listen to what you have to say Peter, never with insult I might add. I did relay your viewpoint. To a point we agreed with what you are saying regarding our youth. But this is in the upper to middle classes. Try to put your point across it the sprawling housing developements of working class areas, where the numbers are. Peter you would have no case. I have no reason to lie to you, christ the main point you should be making is that we continue to move there numbers towards Sinn Fein, which we are. The numbers are there and that's both sides of the border. I note your post made remarks towards the Catholic Church, sorry can't agree with you there, but can't talk about it either as I no longer attend, since the statement of 1983 when the likes of me were asked to leave. Anyway you hold a viewpoint and I respect it. But always listen to the man on the ground, even if he is in the eyes of many nothing but a bigoted provo bastard, which I'm not. Thanks Jim


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 03 Aug 05 - 05:47 PM

Today I carry with me the remnants of things from my childhood. Often, sometimes daily and other times weekly, we fought the French kids in the neighbourhood. As we got older, the fights escalated to gang wars involving weapons. My best friend was French. He was the fellow who taught me the fundamentals of guitar, and he made much of my later life possible. To this day I don't guite know how to feel about it all. But I do know this: I will never again fight someone based on his language, religion, race, etc. That friend taught me that it's the soul of a man that is important. This has nothing to do with Ireland specifically; I apologze for the thread drift.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 06:11 AM

I fully understand Peace what you are saying. Our fight was not with people because of their faith.Our fight was with the British who came to my country and stole the land from it's people. We fought their army, we fought their rules and we fought those who were planted in our land and defended the crimes of the British.The Provisional Irish Republican Army did not kill people for their faith.Yes I agree the soul of a man is very important. And if I was asked to give my life and soul for this country of mine I would. Regarding your own life experience, you were young, running with the crowd. The beauty of youth is you are allowed to make mistakes, it's what it teaches you that counts. You developed a great friendship which has made your life richer. Good luck with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 07:18 AM

We fought their army, we fought their rules and we fought those who were planted in our land and defended the crimes of the British.

A very romantic but not altogether true picture. Are you forgetting the innocent civilians you also murdered on UK mainland over a thirty year period?

The IRA had no where to go. Public sympathy was at an all time low and you did the sensible thing and declared the armed struggle over. The US turned their backs on you and entertained the McCarthy sisters instead.

It's never a good idea to try and rewrite history. I hope you find a way forward that includes neither carnage or rose tinted glasses.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 07:50 AM

Good morning to who ever is hiding behind the above posting. Yes I do remember British civilans that were killed by active service units in England, or your word for it Mainland. Very much regretted by those volunteers who carried out attacks on property there in response to the events in Ireland. In fact regretted by all within the Republican movement. Do I hear your regrets for the loss of my countrymen coming from you ? Have you ever sat in a English prison talking to a young man flanked by two prison guards, listening to every word. By the time you get back to your home the British have ripped it apart, all because you went to visit a man who in 16 years the British government would stand up and say that him and his five friends should never have been put in prison in the first place ? It's always easy to spot someone like you, two lines is all you can muster,What about innocent civilians ? and the Americans turned their backs on you. Both crap. We all suffered losses. We don't award the taking of innocent lives, unlike the British, proven by the queen awarding eleven gallantry medals to members of the para's on their return from Ulster after 13 civilians were murdered by them in Derry. All of these soldiers were in Derry on the day.As to Americans support, yes some in positions do have make the odd noise to please the Brits, But my friend you want to be there on the ground, they love us. The offices Sinn Fein now have in the states are very popular. Yes we should find a way forward without more carnage as troop numbers drop weekly. No need for rose tinted glasses either, plenty to please the eye here at this moment in time.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: ard mhacha
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 07:55 AM

From 1922 when this little haven for loyal Unionists was set up with a built in majority, the Nationalist people have had to take the dirt dished out to them by a Government which was the envy of every tin pot dictatorship throughout the world.

The Brits turned a blind eye to all that went on, it was a case of being left with a stark choice of submission or resistance, it had to break sometime and now that the IRA have said "no more",[now 11 years from their ceasefire], I hope we can progress to a united Ireland and go forward in peace and prosperity. The Irish Republic has prospered from it rejected the benevolent hand of Britain, this is more than can be said for the fag end of Empire, the sick six counties.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 08:09 AM

Thay have had their day ard. And your right, the ceasefire has been in place for a number of years.I am sure your like myself and listened to what our fathers were subjected to all because they were Catholic by birth. The younger generation I doubt will even take the shit we were dished out in our generation. But then again you may need to ask Peter for the answer to that one !


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Peace
Date: 04 Aug 05 - 05:30 PM

Hi, Curator. I do know the situations are different. Vastly. Your country will soon be free. I wish that for the Irish with all my heart. I also understand your willingness to lay down your life for that Island. I would do the same for Canada.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 05 Aug 05 - 05:15 AM

Thanks for your words of support Peace. When I read the words of many fine Irishmen in the posts above, their strength and grit is what kept us all going. As this thread appears to be coming to an end I would like to thank those fine men who gave an understanding to the climate we once lived in and now leave behind. And go forward in peace with justice.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Tír Eoghain
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 12:38 PM

One minor oversight...

How many percent, I say "HOW MANY PERCENT of the vote did Sinn Féin get in the last elections?"
(Rhetorical)

... and that was without decommissioning....

The more the goal comes into sight, the more the swell towards its achievement is growing.
Like the Curator said, it's being talked about in the 4 corners of this country.

The last vestiges of the 17th Century are about to be swallowed up in the march of progress (cos the future marches on...), and without the continuing armed struggles down through the years, the opportunity would never have presented itself, Peter K, sorry.
Your Utopianism never got beyond the Morning Star, I'm afraid, and now it is too late to see if your method would have worked, or not.

I predict Sinn Fèin's popularity to rise and to keep on rising, as the Old School's star begins to wane.

The Irish are and always have been a resilient people, and we have always been proud to come from our country. Militant or ordinary citizen.

Peter K once again underestimates.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 09 Aug 05 - 02:59 PM

Tír Eoghain
Just thought you would like to know about recent attacks on Catholics in North. 15 attacks on Catholic churches in the last 26 days. In Antrim attacks on Catholic homes daily. Police on television news today issusing all Catholic families free smoke detectors and fire blankets in this area. Will this says it all. We can't hear the D.U.P. now, Little Jeffery not to be see or Big Ian or the child. But can appear on local television talking about P.I.R.A. operations five or ten years ago. We are being pushed to defend our areas by them,but they will not get us to bite. We lived through their shit before and will again. They want us to put a unit on the street and the headlines with photograph will read The New Promise of 14 days. That is their aim. All we hear is the P.I.R.A. will be back on the street from Paisley. Can't accept or desire peace at any price.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Aug 05 - 06:23 PM

Just a correction to a wrong information by the Curator answering a question by Brucie:

The name of the second Nobel recipient was not 'Maread Farrell' but Mairead Corrigan. Nice slip of the keyboard, by the way, mixing Stockholm and Gibraltar.

Wolfgang (glad about that move from the IRA)


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 19 Aug 05 - 04:30 PM

I stand corrected Wolfgang. So happened I was working on an item about that lady on that day, and the name stuck. So hard to forget a great person. Sorry and thanks for pointing it out. And glad you welcomed the Councils statement.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 06:21 AM

And while correcting you I made the mistake of confusing two towns: Stockholm is the town where most Nobel prizes are awarded, the peace prize, however, is awarded in Oslo.

Wolfgang (grinning sheepishly)


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:41 AM

"The IRA had no where to go. Public sympathy was at an all time low"

A - The IRA (if you believe that Gerry Adams was on the Army Council) initiated the whole Peace Process, for Chrissakes!!

What's this 'rewriting history' crap all about?

B - From when I was a kid, I was hearing nothing else except that 'Public sympathy' for the IRA was at an all time low.

Either stay away from impressionable sources GUEST, or go see if there's any powers of discernment on auction over at EBay; second hand would nearly do....

"Re-writing history"???

Sure they never taught it in your schools in the first place.

Give my head peace, for God's sake...


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: The Curator
Date: 24 Aug 05 - 07:24 AM

The IRA have never been on their knees in my living lifetime. The British always use this line about their foe. They even said the Americans were on their kness days before the battle of New Orleans ! If the truth be told, prior to the 1994 ceasefire it was Britain torturing Republicans for talks, I felt that time they were very much against the ropes by some of their contact remarks.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:35 PM

I think it is a good time for a short follow-up:

Provos have been transformed, says monitoring body (GUARDIAN)

from the article (you have to read it all for qualifiers):

The verdict:

Provisional IRA

Committed to following a peaceful path. Running down terrorist capability and disbanding some military structures. Not engaged in terrorism, recruiting or targeting.

Dissident republicans

Active and dangerous. Recruiting and seeking weapons. Arson and bomb attacks. But small in number and often disrupted by arrests.

Irish National Liberation Army

Not capable of sustained campaign.

Ulster Defence Association

Involved in serious crime, including drugs, and sectarian attacks. But signs of desire among some leaders to move away from crime.

Ulster Volunteer Force

Responsible for shooting alleged informer. Some efforts made towards tackling criminality and reducing military capacity. (end of quote)

Looks to me like the IRA is a kind of role model for some other groups.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 05 Oct 06 - 12:40 PM

The campaign is over.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 12:47 PM

You know, I'm pretty sick of outright lies being told about Northern Ireland. Take this BS from "DeeDee" for example:

"I lived here all my life and can remember in the 1960's catholics not being allowed to own a house, get work or a vote. The British government ingored these basic rights and from that grew a generation that fought for it. Sad we had to rise to this, but that's the way it was."

I'm afraid that wasn't "the way it was", by no stretch of the imagination. In the 1960s, Roman Catholics were NOT disallowed ownership of houses. Nor were they denied work or votes.

Now here's the truth: The Northern Ireland Civil Rights Association was formed to ensure equal opportunity for ALL in Northern Ireland. It was started by people of various religions, and its membership included both Roman Catholics and Protestants. When the IRA started infiltrating it, and the organisation became more militant. Its goals shifted from civil rights to the constitutional issue, and many Protestants left it.

One of the main issues was that Northern Ireland had adopted the political system that was in place for the UK as a whole, and this didn't change until 1970. The policy NICRA was concerned with was the fact that business owners had the right to a personal vote AND a vote for each business they owned. Demographics being what they were, Protestants were in the majority. They also had better opportunity in some cases to become business owners, whereas Roman Catholic children, who were often part of larger families, had to go straight to work after leaving school early instead of going on to further and higher education.

The Northern Ireland government passed the law to change the system to that which NICRA had been demanding (One man, one vote), though there was never another election after this because the NI Prime Minister resigned a couple of years later.

Discrimination in the work force did occur - perpetrated by and against both sides. There was never any official policy in Northern Ireland's existance, which excluded them from work.

Another concern of NICRA was housing. Their concerns turned out to be unfounded however, as was shown when the results of the 1971 census were published in 1975. In fact not only was there a higher percentage of Roman Catholics housed by pubic authority housing than Protestants, but roughly the same number of new public houses were built in Northern Ireland as were built in the Republic of Ireland during the post-war period - for half the population!

My apologies if these lies have already been addressed - its an old post I'm responding to (from the summer of 2005).


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 02:10 PM

Sir Basil Brooke,prime minister of Northern Ireland said publicly,

There were a great number of Protestants and Orangemen who employed Roman Catholics. He felt he could speak freely on this subject as he had not a Roman Catholic about his place ... He would point out that the Roman Catholics were endeavouring to get in everywhere and were out with all their force and might to destroy the power and constitution of Ulster. There was a definite plot to overpower the vote of Unionists in the north. He would appeal to Loyalists, therefore, to only employ Protestant lads and lassies.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 02:52 PM

The killing of Robert McCartney was (or so I've read) done by members of the IRA.

But to say that this means "the IRA killed him" is a bit like saying "the US Army rapes children in the Philippines" because individual soldiers do so.
______________________

By the same token of course, the UVF and UDA declared a ceasefire but some members have been involved in criminal activities - mostly involving an internal 'power struggle'.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:02 PM

"I can guarantee that the loyalist politicians will keep harping about the declaration NOT BEING ENOUGH, NOT BEING CLEAR ENOUGH, NOT BEING THIS AND NOT BEING THAT."

Th only Loyalist politicians in contention are the PUP, and they are pro-Belfast Agreement. The Unionist politicians are divided essentially into the DUP and UUP camps, the former being previously anti-Belfast Agreement.. though the recent changes made to the Agreement might be enough to persuade them to form an Assembly if they are satisfied that Sinn Féin/IRA has ceased all criminal activity and if Sinn Féin support the police.


"In short the declaration from the I.R.A will mean zilch if there is no movement from the loyalists."

I disagree. The Loyalist contingent is very small, and things will move on with or without their input pretty much.


All we have heard of late is the McCartney murder while three protestants have been killed by loyalists during the past 2 weeks and hardly a word about it."

More than likely those "protestants" (isn't Protestant a proper noun btw?) that you mention were members of rival organisations. Not many people here (in Northern Ireland) care particularly about them getting killed.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:25 PM

Lord Brookeborough said, in 1934 (before he became Prime Minister), "I recommend those people who are Loyalists not to employ Roman Catholics, 99 per cent of whom are disloyal..."

Indeed you are correct. His successor was much more liberal of course. However, a great many people (politicians amongst them) have said a great many things over the past century or so. It doesn't negate the fact that these three things that were stated by DeeDee are lies.

Roman Catholics were 'allowed' to own houses, get work AND to vote throughout Northern Ireland's history. In just the same way, Presbyterians, Methodists, Anglicans, Evangelists, Jews, and athiests were also 'allowed' these same rights.

Talking of athiests, who was it in federal government of the USA that suggested that "salaries should not be paid to Roman Catholics or atheists"..?


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:30 PM

34 people murdered by loyalists UVF/UFF/LVF since 1998 we tend to hear little about these figures. Go the Village area of Belfast a loyalist stronghold and tell them there's a ceasefire ! Serious internal problems there.

Robert McCartney was murdered by one man who was once a member of the PIRA. The PIRA never sent anyone out to kill him. It was murder by a thug, if only the families of those 34 murdered (most were loyalists who were murdered by loyalists) got the same media coverage.

The father of one loyalist did appear on television and asked the public for help, three months later they tried twice inside the same week to kill him.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:17 PM

And the beat goes on.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 04:57 PM

From: alanabit
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:26 AM

"The weapons of the UDA and attendant splinter groups have to go as well. Has there been any monitoring of that?"

There has indeed been some monitoring of it. In recent months there may even have been some progress towards stability, and a way through this to hopefully persuade these gangsters to disarm, decomission and.. to sit down and be quiet basically.


"Maybe the Nationalist community could press harder on that issue. They should have a good chance of forcing it. If their guns have gone away, they can demand their rights as a simple issue of law and order."

The problem is that its not just nationalists' rights being affected. The criminality of the Loyalist terrorists affects us all. Its not even an issue of rights. The Loyalists should be made to decommission by force, if they won't listen to reason. They have little or no mandate (other than the handful of votes that the PUP gets in some areas).


"If I were in a position of power, I would be tempted to light a fire under the Ulster Protestants' behinds, by telling them that they had (say) two years you make peace with their neighbours."

Really? Only the "Protestants' behinds"? What of the athiests and the Roman Catholics? Your misunderstanding seems to be that you are unaware that the vast majority of Protestant people in Northern Ireland ARE actually at peace with their neighbours and colleagues.

It is with some relief to me that you are not "in a position of power", as you sound rather sectarian in nature to me.


"Then, if they had not reached a workable agreement, they would have full independence - whether they wanted it or not."

"Full independence" from what exactly? Surely to be independent, there must exist a need or desire for indepenence from the perspective of the group of people you talk about. I cannot think of anything that a majority of Protestant people in Northern Ireland would particularly desire to be independent of.


"Believe me, very few Brits on the mainland have a deep sentimental yearning to keep Ulster within the UK!"

Thankfully, in your case, Ulster isn't "within the UK" in the first place.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:00 PM

From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 01:42 PM

"There are figures floating around that show the Protestant population as having plunged, but as I understand it, these are based on misunderstandings of the census figures, which were all-Ireland figures before the Free State (1922-today) but Republic-of-Ireland-only figures from 1922 on; this artificially made it appear that the Protestant population had plunged, since the northern counties are more heavily populated with Protestants."

I'm not aware of what figures you have seen personally, though I can tell you that figures have been produced with proper adjustments made to show the Protestant population of the 26 counties both pre- and post-partition. There was a sharp drop in the number of Protestants for the five or ten years before and after the Free State split from Ireland, and then a steady decline until today. The demographics are aas follows:

The population of Protestants as a percentage of the total population of the 26 counties during the period of 1891 to 1911 remained roughly constant.

The percentage of Protestants dropped sharply from 1911 to 1926 (by 30%: down from around 10% to about 7%).

The population decline of Protestants has continued at a reasonably constant rate from 1926 until the present day: the percentage of Protestants in the Republic of Ireland today is less than 3% - down from 7% in 1926.

Perhaps you have been presented with figures that suggest the Protestant population dropped from over 10% to less than 3%.. which is true. But the reason for that is likely due, by the most part, to an exodus of Protestants from Southern Ireland (particularly from border counties).

It is, I think, more important to focus on the period of relative peace after 1926, and compare any change in population from then until now.


"After all, the 'armed struggle' had fallen virtually silent in the 1960s; it only revived when thousands of Catholics were burned out, driven from their homes and refused civil rights in the late 1960s.

Mostly people become violent as a last resort."

That's certinaly one way of looking at it. Of course, we all know that "the Protestants" just became violent for no reason...


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:03 PM

From: ard mhacha
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 02:45 PM

"Jimmy C is right, I can NEVER see the day when Paisley Robinson and the rest of the DUP will ever agree to sit down with Adams and co and using the language of diplomats discuss their problems in a reasonable manner."

Oddly enough Ard "mhacha", had this been 15 or 20 years ago, I wouldn't have thought it possible to see Sinn Féin/IRA sitting down and discussing problems in a reasonable manner.

Yet this is what has happened.


"It just wont happen, to reason with Paisley is impossible, I can still hear the loud guldering voice shouting, "NEEVARR,NEEVARR,NEEVARR, when he was asked would the day come when he would sit down with Sein Fein and work out a power sharing arrangment."

Mmm-hmmm .. easy to provide maxims and slogans and base a person's character on those, and ignore any complexities, eh? Its called blinkered thinking. For example, I could easily describe how I remember Adams addressing a crowd of nationalists and republicans in Belfast.. when one of them shouted out, clear as day, "Bring back the IRA!" Adams' reaction? A grin, a pause and then, "They haven't gone away, you know!".. to a cheer by the crowd.

Incidentally, I don't recall Paisley's "Never" speech being the answer to a question he had been asked.


"Again I agree with Jimmy C, the Unionists will never agree to a united Ireland,"

Indeed. And why should they? The very definition of the ideology of unionism is that Northern Ireland remain part of the United Kingdom. Is there some expectation that this ideology suddenly sprout wings and change into its opposite..?

As a unionist myself, I wouldn't mind seeing the Republic of Ireland re-unite as part of the UK. But I can't see that it would ever happen, so I don't spend a lot of time fretting about it.


"even when they [Unionists] eventually become the minority,"

Don't you mean "if"..?


"despite the fact that the economy of the six northern Counties are third world in comparsion to the Irish republic."

The "six northern Counties" (hereafter referred to as "Northern Ireland, being that this is its given name) do not have an economy as such. Northern Ireland is part of the United Kingdom, which has something like the 5th strongest economy in the world. Hardly "third world".

However, taken as a separate unit I'm sure that this region not having any natural resources worth talking about (other than manpower), and having gone through more than 30 years of political turmoil (which drove away both national and foreign investment by the way) has a long way to go to catch up with the Republic of Ireland's economic boom.

Its worth noting though, before the last major industrial revolution, Northern Ireland had THE biggest textiles industry in the world, one of the biggest rope manufacturing industries in the world, one of the biggest ship manufacturing industries in the world, had twice the GDP of the Republic of Ireland, produced the same number of new houses as the Republic (in the post-war period).. and had many other better statistics than the struggling, under-developed Republic.

The RoI has blossomed, and its good to see. I'm not sure how long it will take before the recession hits it, but let's hope it doesn't hit too hard (a boom is always followed by a relative collapse in economics apparently).



From: Peace
Date: 31 Jul 05 - 05:31 PM

"Just a bit off topic here--but not much. What were the names of the two women who (I think were nominated or maybe received the Nobel Peace Prize) tried to make peace so many years ago? I recall that one was Protestant and the other Catholic."

Mairead Corrigan and Betty Williams. Both women were Roman Catholic, though Williams was the child of a mixed marraige and married a Protestant man. They shared the Nobel Peace Prize in 1976.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:26 PM

From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:41 AM

"A - The IRA (if you believe that Gerry Adams was on the Army Council) initiated the whole Peace Process, for Chrissakes!!"

Considering Adams resigned publically from the IRA Army Council not so long ago, it'd be hard not to believe he was "on the Army Council".

It wasn't the IRA who initiated the whole "Peace Process" by the way - it was one John Hume. He managed to get the IRA and the British government to sit down with each other and talk the bit out.. tried and tried. The Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 was the first result of these talks, though it was poorly considered and VERY poorly implemented.

I believe nobody deserved the Nobel Peace Prize more than Hume. That's not to say that Trimble didn't deserve his, for he surely played his part. And of course, I have to say that had Adams & Co not agrred to talk, there would undoubtedly be no "peace process" today.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:34 PM

From: Tiocfaidh
Date: 23 Aug 05 - 11:41 AM

"A - The IRA (if you believe that Gerry Adams was on the Army Council) initiated the whole Peace Process, for Chrissakes!!"

Considering Adams resigned publically from the IRA Army Council not so long ago, it'd be hard not to believe he was "on the Army Council".

It wasn't the IRA who initiated the whole "Peace Process" by the way - it was one John Hume. He managed to get the IRA and the British government to sit down with each other and talk the bit out.. tried and tried. The Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985 was the first result of these talks, though it was poorly considered and VERY poorly implemented.

I believe nobody deserved the Nobel Peace Prize (in Northern Ireland) more than Hume. That's not to say that Trimble didn't deserve his, for he surely played his part. And of course, I have to say that had Adams & Co not agrred to talk, there would undoubtedly be no "peace process" today.



From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 03:30 PM

"34 people murdered by loyalists UVF/UFF/LVF since 1998 we tend to hear little about these figures. Go the Village area of Belfast a loyalist stronghold and tell them there's a ceasefire ! Serious internal problems there."

The same Village that has had some of its Loyalist murals painted over with more neutral murals celebrating sports heros etc of Northern Ireland you mean..?

Anyway, isn't this thread about the IRA ceasefire and inactivity..? You feel the need to mention the Loyalist scumbags and thugs because..? (answers on a postcard..)


"Robert McCartney was murdered by one man who was once a member of the PIRA."

Uh-huh.. while the other one jumping up and down on McCartney's head was who..? The guy who gave the orders was who..? His stomach was ripped open by who..? Read the accounts of what actually happened in and outside the bar.


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Divis Sweeney
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:39 PM

There are some other pastimes for a Saturday evening !


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: GUEST,Anony Mouse
Date: 07 Oct 06 - 05:53 PM

Yup - I could be getting on with cleaning out my house! ;)


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Subject: RE: BS: IRA ends armed campaign
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 08 Oct 06 - 04:55 AM

I wish I had noticed before that Dee Dee used to be The Curator.
Here is his last post as Curator.
Why the change of mind DD?


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