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BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???

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Subject: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:20 PM

Well, well, well...

After months and months of Karl Rove and his attorney workin' on getting the story straight according to today's Washington Post article entitled "Rove Told Reporter About Plame Buit Didn't Name Her, Attorney Says", ahhhhh, Karl Rove told Matthew Cooper of Time magazine about Plame but' Didn't name her??????

Hmmmmmmm?

Like how does one actually go about talkin' with someone without namin' them???

If this is the best that Karl "Fat Assed Liar" Rove and his attorney, Robert Luskin can come up with after months of plannin' Rove's defense then I'm real disappopinted in how my tax dollars are being spent...

If I'm gonna be lied to, I DEMAND MORE BELIEVABLE LIES, gol dangit....

I mean, hey, this batch of croopks have always been able to come up with top shelf lies and no this????

Very disappointin', indeed....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:28 PM

The e-mails surrendered by Time Inc., which are largely between Cooper and his editors, show that one of Cooper's sources was White House deputy chief of staff Karl Rove, according to two lawyers who asked not to be identified because they are representing witnesses sympathetic to the White House. Cooper and a Time spokeswoman declined to comment. But in an interview with NEWSWEEK, Rove's lawyer, Robert Luskin, confirmed that Rove had been interviewed by Cooper for the article. It is unclear, however, what passed between Cooper and Rove.

The controversy began three days before the Time piece appeared, when columnist Robert Novak, writing about Wilson's trip, reported that Wilson had been sent at the suggestion of his wife, who was identified by name as a CIA operative. The leak to Novak, apparently intended to discredit Wilson's mission, caused a furor when it turned out that Plame was an undercover agent. It is a crime to knowingly reveal the identity of an undercover CIA official. A special prosecutor was appointed and began subpoenaing reporters to find the source of the leak.

Novak appears to have made some kind of arrangement with the special prosecutor, and other journalists who reported on the Plame story have talked to prosecutors with the permission of their sources. Cooper agreed to discuss his contact with Lewis (Scooter) Libby, Vice President Dick Cheney's top aide, after Libby gave him permission to do so. But Cooper drew the line when special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald asked about other sources.

Initially, Fitzgerald's focus was on Novak's sourcing, since Novak was the first to out Plame. But according to Luskin, Rove's lawyer, Rove spoke to Cooper three or four days before Novak's column appeared. Luskin told NEWSWEEK that Rove "never knowingly disclosed classified information" and that "he did not tell any reporter that Valerie Plame worked for the CIA." Luskin declined, however, to discuss any other details. He did say that Rove himself had testified before the grand jury "two or three times" and signed a waiver authorizing reporters to testify about their conversations with him. "He has answered every question that has been put to him about his conversations with Cooper and anybody else," Luskin said. But one of the two lawyers representing a witness sympathetic to the White House told NEWSWEEK that there was growing "concern" in the White House that the prosecutor is interested in Rove. Fitzgerald declined to comment.




IF Rove is accused of a crime, he should be prosecuted. If he is guilty, he should be punished. He should be held to the same standards that anyone else would be: And if he is found innocent, Bobert should get off his back.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:32 PM

Rove only had to say "Joe Wilson's wife" -- that's not namingher, now is it?

But to the question that titles this thread I retort, scathingly:
IS THE POPE CATHOLIC?

Cheers,
Michael


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: michaelr
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 09:36 PM

BTW, I'm no fan of Judith Miller's -- quite the opposite -- but it's obvious that she's been set up to take the fall (SHE never wrote about the story) while Novak, whose head is the one that should roll, appears to be getting off the hook.

A sordid business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:24 PM

Me neither, michaelr... Judith Miller, during the run up to war in Iraq, made it known that one Scott Ritter, former arms inspector in Iraq and voacl opponent of attackin Iraq, would be treated like he was carryin' uranium in his pockets...

She did as much in gettin' the US into this quagmire in Iraq as Bush becuase it was her falg waving that set the tone for the rest of the nespapers accross America which look to the NY Times and Wsahington Post, which also rolled over, fir their direction...

And, yeah, sayin' that Joe Wilson's wife was a CIA operative ain't exactly like sayin' Val Plame was a CIA agent but, either way, hey, Rove fingered her... And he's not denyin' identifying her as Joe Wilson's wife... Don't take a rocket surgeon to figgure this one out....

But this ain't about who gets convicted.... Think O.J. and Michale Jackson here... Might be Karl Rove's name added to that list... Important people don't get convicted and if so, an appeals court *fixes* everyhting...

Rove "the Crokk of all crooks" will walk... Just like O.J. walked...

Problem with Rove walkin' is that rather than spend his days playin' golf like O.J., he'll be runnin' the country.....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Alba
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:28 PM

I thought it was a trick question Bobert..:>)

Just drop the "is" and the "???" from the Thread title and there you have it.
Snarl Rove, a Big Fat Liar.

Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:47 PM

Bobert-

I really think you're being too hard on Karl Rove. Wouldn't it be sufficient that he simplely hang from a branch, dangled in the breeze for a couple of weeks, with maybe a crow or two riding shotgun on his shoulder plucking out his eyes? Hell's probably full to the brim now or frozen over, and I doubt that any advance reservations have really been made or acknowledged. I doubt if they accept credit cards anyway.

Have a nice day!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:48 PM

LOL, Jude.... I love the "Snarl"... I hadn't read it anywhere else... Is that *yer* original? If so, brilliant!!!....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 10:53 PM

Yer right, Charlie!!!!

(oh the frieght...)

Heck, maybe Hell is full... Hmmmmmm.... Need a backup plan....

Danged....

Ahhhhh, I'm workin' on it, dangit...

Sho nuff am so get loff my case... I din't roll Val Plame unnerthe bus... I'm doin' the best I can... Ain't like I gotta a lot of markers to call in in Hell... Me and Satan ain't been on good terms of late... But I'z workin' on it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: harpgirl
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 11:09 PM

what would anyone expect from a bunch of sociopaths?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 11 Jul 05 - 11:37 PM

...and the bottom line ladies and gentlemen is that we Americans can bitch and complain about this administration and it's policies and it's members but the responsibility for success or failure of this country to live up to it's ideals falls on the shoulders of the
electorate; who, time and time again, year in and year out - fail to come to the plate. We ignore reality, buy into pseudo-patriotic bullshit slogans, DO NOT do our political homework, tear into issues of no substance that are designed to be misleading - and end up electing another set of assholes that are just as bad as the ones we are getting rid of. We do this at the local, the state and the national level - every stinking year, while we sit on our bar stools,
down another pint and shout about how great this American country is.
I am a veteran and I'm sick and tired of calling this shit that we have here a democracy - it is not a democracy any more, rather, it is a corporatocracy - government run for, by and about big business and those connected to it. Hey, next round's on me, and while we're drinkin' you can sit and tell me why this Iraq invasion is so important for securing America's freedom; oh, and you can also tell me why (if that is so) you are not in military uniform - patriot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 09:28 AM

To some on the left, Rove is the epitome of all they despise about the administration. He is Bush's brain, pulling the strings from behind the scenes, injecting politics into every conceivable decision. Rove further infuriated his critics a couple of weeks ago when he seemed to use the 9/11 tragedy to score political points, saying Republicans wanted to wage war and liberals wanted to offer the terrorists therapy.

Add the fact that this controversy is about the runup to the Iraq war and an apparent White House effort to discredit a prominent Bush critic, Joe Wilson, and you have an incendiary mixture. (It was Wilson, Valerie Plame's husband, who once declared that "fun to see Karl Rove frog-marched out of the White House in handcuffs.") And this dovetails nicely with the conviction that the press did a lousy job on WMD before the war and has been too soft on Karl & Co. ever since.

There are two issues here, it seems to me. Legally, what Rove said to Matt Cooper on "double super secret background" (according to this Mike Isikoff piece) may or may not have violated the law against identifying intelligence agents. There are questions about whether Rove knew that Plame was undercover, whether he was "knowingly" outing her, and so forth.

But politically, this is a bombshell. Rove, who has insisted he did not leak Plame's name, had something to do with this effort, even if he didn't "name" her. ( The defense: It all depends on the meaning of the word "leak?") He was attempting to undercut Wilson when he told Cooper that wifey had helped set up Wilson's fact-finding trip to Niger (where Wilson didn't find the facts the administration wanted on Saddam seeking uranium) and that the uranium business could still be true (it wasn't). And didn't the White House promise to fire anyone involved in the leak?

What does Rove do now? Give a couple of interviews and explain his role? Or remain in the background while his lawyer issues carefully parsed statements?

The newspapers all jump on the White House in stonewall mode, beginning with the New York Times :

"Nearly two years after stating that any administration official found to have been involved in leaking the name of an undercover C.I.A. officer would be fired, and assuring that Karl Rove and other senior aides to President Bush had nothing to do with the disclosure, the White House refused on Monday to answer any questions about new evidence of Mr. Rove's role in the matter.

"With the White House silent, Democrats rushed in, demanding that the administration provide a full account of any involvement by Mr. Rove, one of the president's closest advisers, turning up the political heat in the case and leaving some Republicans worried about the possible effects on Mr. Bush's second-term agenda. Senator Harry Reid of Nevada, the Democratic leader, cited Mr. Bush's statements about firing anyone involved in the leak and said, 'I trust they will follow through on this pledge.'. . . .

"In two contentious news briefings, the White House press secretary, Scott McClellan, would not directly address any of a barrage of questions about Mr. Rove's involvement."

"Reporters at Monday's question-and-answer session at the White House peppered spokesman Scott McClellan with 41 questions in 35 minutes," says USA Today .

Chicago Tribune : "Sensing vulnerability on the part of a formidable political adversary, Democrats on Monday urged hearings into the conduct of presidential adviser Karl Rove and demanded his security clearance be revoked as the White House grew close-mouthed about allegations that Rove played a role in revealing a CIA employee's identity."

WP columnist Dana Milbank captures the tone:


"'This is ridiculous!'

"'You're in a bad spot here, Scott.'

"'Have you consulted a personal attorney?'

"The 32-minute pummeling was perhaps the worst McClellan received since he got the job two years ago. His eyes were red and tired. He wiggled his foot nervously behind the lectern and robotically refused to answer no fewer than 35 questions about Rove and the outing of the CIA's Valerie Plame. Twenty-two times McClellan repeated that an 'ongoing' investigation prevented him from explaining the gap between his past statements and the facts."

The Wall Street Journal notes: "In an email message to supporters, Mr. Bush's defeated 2004 election rival, Sen. John Kerry of Massachusetts, wrote: 'It's perfectly clear that Rove -- the person at the center of the slash-and-burn, smear-and-divide tactics that have come to characterize the Bush administration -- has to go.'"

Here are some of the anti-Rove posts:

Slate's Tim Noah : "Inside the Bush administration, lying to reporters doesn't even come close to being a firing offense, so neither Rove nor Scott McClellan, who first called the accusation that Rove exposed Plame "totally ridiculous" and then flat-out said "it is simply not true," need fear for his job on that score. But Rove blew the cover of an undercover CIA official. If Dubya doesn't fire the man he nicknamed "Turd Blossom" for this offense, he's an even bigger hack than I think."

Blanton's and Ashton's

"Way to go Karl. Only in a Bush administration could you still be working at the White House instead of scrubbing toilets in prison. . . .

"Rove is attempting to wiggle away from criminal charges based on a literal interpretation of the law and a lot of weaselly little garbage. For instance, he is making sure to let everyone know he didn't 'name' Valerie Plame. No, he didn't. He just referred to Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife. So he didn't 'name' her, he merely identified her, but not by name, so be careful you don't say that he 'named' her. Dear Karl, do you actually feel good about yourself when you have to rely on that kind of maneuvering to look innocent?"


(Just an excerpt from the heat being aimed, with all justification, at Rove's ugly little head).

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,maire-aine
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:30 PM

I had a chance to watch "Bush's Brain" over the weekend. It's available on DVD now. How appropriate! KR has finally over-stepped, and hopefully he'll face the consequences.

M


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:43 PM

Intimidating people to lie for you or simply coerce them to tell the lies you want them to tell is Rove's specialty.

Working for a family with long standing CIA ties makes this a rather easy job. What ever dirt you want, you can get.
Threatening the well being of a wife or girlfriend is one of the first things even the FBI will do to extort co operation. Its standard operating procedure.

That Rove is caught in a web by a law first proposed By W's father is the height of irony. That he will get off by saying "I didn't know" is very Reaganesque.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 12:50 PM

http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/reagandime.jpg


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Alba
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 01:45 PM

Bobert ma Dear, Ive been calling Rove, Snarl since I watched the film the marie-aine mentioned "Bush's Brain"...what a piece of work this guy is...iky..yuk

LOL

Love to You and P Vine
Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 03:33 PM

Bush will protect Karl Rove because he is the 'brains' behind this administration. I don't think this is the first time he has been caught in a dirty tricks scandal.

Guardian Unlimited:

"Last year, however, Rove's taste for personal politics entangled him in an extraordinary spy scandal. He is reported to have made calls to Washington journalists last July identifying a CIA undercover agent, Valerie Plame, who was married to Joseph Wilson, a former ambassador who had called into question the administration's claims about Iraq's alleged nuclear programme. Rove allegedly told the journalists that Plame was "fair game" because her husband had gone public with his criticism."

Karl Rove thinks its O.K. to endanger the life of the wife because you don't like the husband. WHAT KIND OF PERSON THINKS LIKE THAT?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:40 PM

"Karl Rove thinks its O.K. to endanger the life of the wife because you don't like the husband. WHAT KIND OF PERSON THINKS LIKE THAT?"

A very dangerous one to have as an enemy.

Rove will probably resign soon, to help take the heat off Bush and to ensure his future employment at some conservastive thunk tank.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:47 PM

most anyone could have told you she worked for the farm[cia]before any of this secret info was leaked;ain't it fun telling secrets to people that should be aware of the[sic]secret,before there told(i'm telling mommy,go ahead i told her yesterday.)   makin dang mountains outa mole hills again


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Metchosin
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 04:56 PM

Oh....you knew she worked for the CIA before this was leaked? Well I guess that would be reasonable. In other words, any person with half a brain, knows that any American who has a job or posting outside of the US is a CIA spy. Seems feasible to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:00 PM

If most everybody knew it already, jpk, then what was the point of "leaking" the information? If he leaked it, he must have known it would do some damage, otherwise there would be no incentive to leak.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Alba
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 05:09 PM

I didn't know she worked for the CIA?? Why was I not told before this leak!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Frankham
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 09:26 PM

Karl Rove is worse than a liar. He has a criminal mind. He deliberately outed Valerie Plame to push his power and to punish Wilson for blowing the whistle on Bush's African Uranium scam . Rove is the Republican "Godfather".

Bush will not fire Rove though. Rove has the goods on Bush (like J. Edgar on his "friends") and if Rove decides he can open the Pandora's Box on Bush's former bouts with alcohol and narcotics, and affairs. Bush's frat boy past will be opened up and Rove will cut the strings of his puppet. Bush will make Clinton look like a choirboy.

Frank


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 09:34 PM

Ahhhhh, jpk, are you on drugs 'er what???? Like maybe you'd like to come out with some eveidence to back up yer pathetic Bush/Rove apologistic statement...

Yeah, where's the beef....

I mean if you got the goods there are a lot of media folks who want to talk with you.... Like TONIGHT!!!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Songster Bob
Date: 12 Jul 05 - 11:17 PM

One point about Rove's treason is that, by exposing that Wilson's wife was a CIA operative, her front organization was also exposed, endangering anyone who may have visited it (it was a company, I forget what kind of service -- oil or foreign investments or some such). So any visitor, legit or spying for us, would be supposed by his/her neighborhood baddies, to be a spy, and bingo, another kidnapping or back-alley mugging. When you deal with these mid-Eaast folks, you are in dangerous areas just because you deal with Americans, so if that American is outed as a CIA front, you are in deep doo-doo.

Another point, in a lighter vein. When Triumph, the Insult Dog, was introduced to Karl Rove, he said, "You're the one they call 'Bush's Brain?' I expected someone smaller!"

Bob


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:27 AM

It's a "witch hunt" according to the National Republican Party chairman. Of course he does not clarify which witch is which, or even concede that a crime may have been committed.

I wonder what would happen if someone throw a bucket of water over Mr. Rove. Would he disappear in a puff of smoke, leaving behind only his brown hushpuppies?

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Uncle DaveO
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 10:28 AM

"Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???"

I know that! Doesn't everybody know that?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: saulgoldie
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 01:21 PM

Well, apparently he was telling the truth about Plame. As for the rest of his utterings...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 02:08 PM

In Renaissance Italy, assassination was a fairly standard political tool. A dagger in the back in a dark hallway, a few drops of poison in the wine, and a political problem is solved. With Karl Rove, the aim is the same, but instead of endangering himself by committing or ordering actual murder, he uses character assassination to accomplish his ends. A word here, a rumor there. . . .

The spirit of Niccolò Machiavelli lurks in the hallways of Washington, D. C.   And Karl Rove is the reincarnation of Cesare Borgia.

But Borgia's Renaissance incarnation was better looking.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Uncle DaveO
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 04:55 PM

Questioned about Rove in connection with the Plame thing, Bush says, "I have great faith and confidence in Karl Rove."

Of course! Rove did just what Bush wanted, just like he always does his dirtywork, so why wouldn't he have faith and confidence in him?

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 05:02 PM

you know not what you say;if you would sit back and watch,you would see that both sides play the same games at different times,depending on who is supposidly in power.while those really pulling the strings sit back and laugh[just ask those like marc rich and his 'gang of thugs'(while clutching his clinton pardon)face it,they are all lacking in ethics,morels,and any other redeaming quilties [may be an exception somewhere]
other than it not being a secret,most state dept employies are in the pocket of the farm.works the same for a lot of for.embasses in the us as well[there spies,not ours]nothing new,just newer clothes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,The Phantom of the Uproar
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:02 PM

I'm new here, jpk, but I figure you've got to be either a Republican or a cynic.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:05 PM

I bet he's a libertarian.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

Well, well, well...

Looks like the the Bushites have come up with a new and improved strategy... Blame the Dems fir being trouble-makers??? And keep the blame coming loud and often until Bush nominates a Supreme Court justice which will take the heat off Rove...

The only good thing to come out of all the various and sundry scandlas in the Bush administration is that the Repubs have had to quit barkin' the "personal responisibily" mantra since they are completely unwilling to take responsibily fir their own crimes and misdemeanors...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 07:18 PM

YEah, but that's always been true and they haven't stopped yapping since they first smelled blood...I mean power...have they?

Buncha dog-biscuit-brained meatheads.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:12 PM

the "Turdblossom" bush's nickname for KR is beginning to stink
and its about time..

of course he didnt ever say the name he said it was Wilsons wife.
He was of course talking about Mrs Wilson, Dennis the Menaces neighbour
p


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Peter Woodruff
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 08:55 PM

There is no doubt.

Peter


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:20 PM

I hope you can see this Tom Toles cartoon (Washington Post site)

if not, try this a Yahoo site for same one


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:36 PM

I saw it, Bill... What a hoot this is becomin'... I predicted right here in Mudville almost 2 years ago that Rove had done this but never in my wildest imagination would I ever have thought that the Bushites wouldn't be able to handle the scandal.... They've been so good at keeping the rest of the crap unner the rug...

But, hey, even the Republican owned media had to admit tonight on MSNBC, who fired Phil Donohue fir not toein' the line in the Bush un up to war in Iraq, that Bush ain't too popular with the American people... One of the questions related to the truth factor and now more Americans don't belive Bush than do... This does not bode well fir either the Bushites or America as he tries to dismantle as much of the New Deal that he can while he can....

But I'm gonna go on record of predictin' another 9-11 event in just over a year becuase the Repubs will be in desperate need for one and if they are goina stand any chance of holding the White House, after this dismal 8 years of theivery and lies, they can't do it without another 9/11... Keep in mind that the week before 9/11 Bush had the lowest approval rating of any president since such polls have been taken....

So that's my prediction... Sad... but I'm sticken by it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bill D
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:45 PM

I'd really hate it if you were right, Bobert. I don't care for Bush at all, but I don't want to believe that his group would plan, incite or condone any 9/11 type event for any reason. There are plenty of reasons to say "that's enough" at the next elections...and if all these indications about Rove prove true, that will be one more nail in the conservative coffin.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:45 PM

Turdblossom - One who makes sure that your shit smells sweet.

Without Rove, Bush is in big trouble. He won't have anyone to cover his crap.

Because it involves journalism, lets hope the media keeps this story alive.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:51 PM

Nah, I ain't hopin' fir another 9/11, Bill, but given the Bushite's casual dismissal of the wranings of the Clinton adminstration, plus their lack of intellegent policies followin' 9?11, America is ripe fir the picken'... And the bad guys like Bush becuase whereas he isn't too good at unitin' the American people, he's purdy danged good at unitin' the bad guys....

They love him!!!

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 09:52 PM

Even if he gets fired, that doesn't mean that he won't still be pulling W's strings. He can still do the job... he just won't be getting paid for it out of any of the budgets that are not secret.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Alba
Date: 13 Jul 05 - 10:01 PM

Oh no Carol say that ain't true:>)
I wanted to be able to say that "The Presidents Brain is missing" once Snarl has gone....!

Even if he's given the Boot you can be sure GWB will keep this nasty piece of work close. GWB needs Snarl Rove a lot more then Snarl Rove needs him.
Jude


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Rovegate
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 06:50 AM

Truth or Consequences:

"ROVEGATE -- July 10, 2005 --Newsweek magazine is reporting on the contents of a July 11, 2003 email between reporter Matt Cooper and Time Washington bureau chief Michael Duffy that was handed over, along with other email and notes, to special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald. Although the email shows that Rove talked to Cooper about Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife, there is no mention of how columnist Robert Novak obtained the information on Brewster Jennings & Associates, the carve out brass plate firm that was used by Valerie Plame and her colleagues and which was rolled up as a result of the leak. Rove and his lawyer are trying to limit the spin to Rove "not knowing" Plame's name, let alone that she was a covert CIA agent. Yet Plame's association with a non-official cover (NOC), by default, means that she was covert, pure and simple. Brewster Jennings reportedly "suffered greatly" as a result of the disclosure, according to a knowledgeable source. Another source reported that at least one Brewster Jennings NOC operating in a hostile intelligence environment was executed by counter-intelligence agents as a result of the White House disclosure. Other B&JA assets were forced to abandon their ongoing operations to identify networks involved in weapons of mass destruction proliferation. The CIA has been working on a damage assessment report on the Plame/B&JA disclosures. If no indictments of White House officials result from the Fitzgerald investigation, look for parts of that highly classified report to be leaked and then look for more imprisonments of journalists who refuse to divulge the source(s) of those leaks. Word from intelligence sources is that the damage assessment report is "devastating." "

by Flint on Wed Jul 13th, 2005

Read more HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Wolfgang
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 12:01 PM

He'll has to go.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 12:04 PM

source reported that at least one Brewster Jennings NOC operating in a hostile intelligence environment was executed by counter-intelligence agents as a result of the White House disclosure. Other B&JA assets were forced to abandon their ongoing operations to identify networks involved in weapons of mass destruction proliferation. The CIA has been working on a damage assessment report on the Plame/B&JA disclosures. If no indictments of White House officials result from the Fitzgerald investigation, look for parts of that highly classified report to be leaked and then look for more imprisonments of journalists who refuse to divulge the source(s) of those leaks. Word from intelligence sources is that the damage assessment report is "devastating." "


This makes it murder, not the first by far, but a lot clearer than the generalized responsibility for promoting war, as Rove has done from the beginning. He has been a war-monger ever since he first launched his precious but stupid candidate.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 08:23 PM

of course the big lie is not whether Rove outed the CIA agent to discredit Wilson, but the big lie of wmds that the country went to war.
The WHite HOuse is desperately trying to turn the issue to something else- ie. the reporters being upset since one of their own is in jail.
Or hoping that the public will find it all too complicated and talk about Tom Cruise instead.

Its good to see some backbone by the journalists now.
Bet there will be a supreme court nominee soon to take the media spotlight off this issue.

(I think its quite possible there may be some terrorist event in the US
- it is impossible to protect everyone everywhere -
My wife and I were at the fiddle TUnes festival in Port Townsend Washignton - and had no news all last week , so we didnt know about the London Bombing until were on the ferry across puget sound sunday, it was strange to see a coast guard gunboat accompany the ferry all the way)
however a terror strike in the US would not necessarily gain support for Bush's cause - it might in fact backfire, since clearly the strategy is not working. The fact that the British bombers were British born, indicates that Iraq has increased recruitment for Al Qaeda.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 11:38 PM

Remember when W first got elected and his supporters were waxing rhapsodic about how "now we're going to have some grownups in the
White House"?



hmmmm....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Sorcha
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 10:16 AM

How can you tell if a politican is lying?



The lips are moving.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 06:56 PM

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/07/14/AR2005071401735.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:28 PM

oh yeah well..
http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/07/15/dean.rove/

the leak prosecution precedent
the bush administrations strategy for punishing those who leak may be coming back to bite it on the ass..

In 2002 Jonathan Randel working for the DEA, leaked the fact that Lord Ashcrofts name was in the DEA files, Ashcroft sued and found the source of the leak was Randel and they threw the kitchen sink at him. Facing Potentially 500 years in jail, he pleaded guilty and was sentenced to a year in jail, plus 3probation.

the precedent does not bode well for Rove, whose leak is far more damaging than Randels.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:36 PM

BB-

Well, that's an interesting article in the Washington Post that you've provided a link to.

It does imply that Wilson has selectively marshalled his fact-finding conclusions on the Niger yellow cake Iraqi foray.

However, it also does not exonerate Mr. Rove with regard to disclosing the identity of an undercover CIA agent, Mr. Wilson's wife. I think that charge is gonna stick, like so much tar!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:36 PM

Even the Post doesn't specify Rove at the end of its' editorial. Just a maybe.

Read my lips, 7/15 @ 8:34PM, IT WASN"T ROVE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 08:59 PM

The Post editorial says that Wilson didn't successfully counter the Bush administration's claims about Iraq and Niger yellowcake. From what I remember of that issue at that time, the question wasn't whether or not Saddam had requested any yellowcake... it was whether or not Niger had actually sold any yellowcake to Iraq.

I think I will tend to take whatever this editorialist has to say with a rather large grain of salt now (or would if I knew his or her name). I don't trust people who try to mislead me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 15 Jul 05 - 09:00 PM

Charley,

As I have stated, I am interested in the facts- IF he is guilty, he should be punished.

Just like people who lie to grand juries should be punished for perjury.... But I guess only the ones you don't agree with should have to take responsibility for their actions.....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Frankham
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:20 PM

The definition of a criminal mind is one that refuses to take responsibility for his/her actions. The blame always goes to someone else.

When was the last time you heard Bush or Rove take any responsibility for what they do?

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:36 PM

Karl Rove has no respect for the truth. The only thing he respects is political expediency and winning, no matter what the cost to facts or truth.

For example, the kind of tactic that Karl Rove used when he managed George W. Bush's campaign for governor of Texas:   associating one of the most popular governors in Texas history, the fairly liberal Ann Richards, with "promoting the homosexual agenda" in the minds of the large number of religious fundamentalist Texas voters. There was no basis in fact for this. Nevertheless, with his typical regard for the truth, Karl Rove had volunteer campaign workers descend on church parking lots on Sundays and stick fliers under windshield wipers saying that Ann Richards had a policy of hiring homosexuals in her administration. She had no such policy, either pro- or anti-homosexual. But "repeat an outrageous lie often enough and loudly enough and people will believe it."

Here is an article on the tactics of Karl Rove (clicky). The following is an excerpt
In a show of political savagery never before encountered in American politics, Rove's push polls served the cause of then candidate Governor Bush in South Carolina. Within a short amount of time, John McCain's walk to the White House was disrupted by stories circulating like fire among South Carolina voters, stories push polled into their consciousness, namely that McCain's wife, Cindy, was a drug addict, that the Senator himself was a basket case due to being a POW in Vietnam, and that he was the father of an illegitimate black child following a tryst with a prostitute. How can conservatives and liberals alike not howl in disgust at these tactics?
There are those who say that, although Karl Rove cozies up to the evangelicals, in private, he worships the Devil. Not so. The Devil worships Karl Rove.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 01:51 PM

Will Bush see the light? If he needed to win another election, maybe, but since it serves no purpose to get rid of Rove at this point, Bush will protect him. Besides, if Rove is pushed against the wall, he will probably spill the beans. Bush wouldn't want that, would he?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

From the LA Times:

"That law makes it a crime to intentionally disclose identifying information about a covert agent. Rove's defense appears to be that he was merely trafficking in rumor or gossip, conduct that the law does not appear to cover.

According to the source familiar with Rove's testimony, Novak called Rove on July 9, 2003, in part to discuss his July 14 column. That article would describe a CIA-backed trip that Wilson, Plame's husband, had taken to the African nation of Niger in 2002 to assess claims that Iraq was seeking weapons-grade uranium.

Wilson had just written about his trip in an opinion article for the New York Times, which questioned the intelligence the administration was citing to justify the war in Iraq.

In his column, Novak insinuated that the trip was the product of nepotism and had been arranged by Plame and her CIA connections.

In their conversation, and after Novak laid out his writing plans, the source said, Rove indicated that he, too, had heard about the involvement of Wilson's wife. Rove's comments to Novak appeared to give the columnist at least indirect confirmation of Plame's CIA role.

Rove has told investigators that he had heard this information from yet another journalist — whose identity he has said he could not recall — and that he had no independent knowledge that Wilson's wife was an undercover agent.

James Hamilton, Novak's lawyer, declined to comment on the disclosure."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 02:39 PM

It appears that Karl Rove may have been concerned enough about what he did say to the journalist to try to cover his rear:

It Warn't Me


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 03:06 PM

Ebbie -

It seems that other reporters were involved and that Rove wasn't the only White House leaker. It is a classic case of 'reading between the lines". In any event, Valerie Plame is the victim and it is doubtful if any of those who are truly guilty will ever meet any kind of justice.

I think they are all rumour mongers and get paid big money to do so. Its their job. They were just doing what they get paid to do. I guess they never heard of integrity and right livelihood or ethics for that matter. It just show us how tightly interdependent politicians and journalists have become. They create their own reality.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Tannywheeler
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:05 PM

Say, Bobert, doesn't it (to coin a phrase) depend on "what your definition of the word IS is"?   Tw


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:35 PM

i am a cynic;plus it is kind of funny that wilsons pathitic book isn't selling well[selling better now]and that rove gave the ok to name himself[maybe]
bout the same as woodward's book coming off the press at the same time that deep throat come out o the closet
follow the money maybe;makes you wonder,since most socalled public servants are only in for themself anyway[one way or another]
have a great day anyway and god bless[they won't]


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 04:40 PM

maybe sadam did not have anything an hand but it is known that he had used wmd's before[nerve gas and musturd gas]ask the people in iran,and the kurds.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Jul 05 - 05:12 PM

He had them because we gave them to him. So he could kill the people we wanted killed (in the case of Iran).


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 08:50 AM

LOL, GUEST tAnnywheeler, but it seems that we may be headin' fir yet another defense based on "Depends what the defination of IS... is"... This morning's Washington Post has yet another article on the scandel which is clearer than anything I've read yet.. That's not good for Rove whose attorney is tryin' desperately to keep the issue so muddled that no-one can see it fir what it is..

One thing I can say is that the "Yeah, I heard that, too" defense that Rove's attorney is using now ain't gonna hold up but might get them to the appointment of thwe Supreme and buy them some time... All they are tryin' to do is run out the clock at this point in time...

But the leak came from someone in the Bush administartion and tryin' to blame the press fir the leak, accordin' to the Wes Ginny Slide Rule, is pirdy danged lame...

"Yeah, I heard it, too"??????

My butt...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:57 AM

From SFGate.com today:

"Washington -- Karl Rove had a secret.

In public, he was masterminding President Bush's re-election and brushing off suggestions he had played any part in an unfolding drama: the unmasking of CIA operative Valerie Plame. In private, the senior White House adviser was meeting, on five occasions, with federal prosecutors to tell what he knew about the matter.

The story he would tell prosecutors did not seem to square with the White House's denial that it had played any role in one of the most famous leaks since Watergate. Rove told prosecutors he had discussed Plame in passing with at least two reporters, including the columnist who eventually revealed her name and role in a secret mission that would raise questions about Bush's case for war against Iraq. At the same time, other White House officials were whispering about Plame, too.

It is now clear: There has been an element of pretense to the White House strategy of dealing with the Plame case since the earliest days of the saga. Revelations emerging slowly at first, and in a rapid cascade over the past several days, have made plain that many important pieces of the puzzle were not so mysterious to Rove and others inside the Bush administration. White House officials were aware of Plame and her husband's potentially damaging charge that Bush was "twisting" intelligence about Iraq's nuclear ambitions well before the episode evolved into Washington's latest scandal."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 09:17 PM

Yes, Karl Rove is a big, fat liar but even worse, he's a rumour monger.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 09:30 PM

Agreed... He is very good at what he does and I would guess the Dems would like to have someone with his instincts in their corner but without quite as much evilness... But then again, it's Rove's eveilness that makes him so good???

Can't win...

(No, BObert, ya can win but it's gonna take a lot of evilness...)

Nevermind...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,AR282
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:03 PM

Now it appears the VP's office may have also leaked Plame. The plot thickens.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Linda Mattson
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:35 PM

jpk, it appears you've been watching too much Fox "news." What piece of false Republican propaganda will you come out with next?

The US gave weapons of mass destruction to Sadam Hussein, and then stood by when he used them. Donald Rumsfeld in 1983 congratulated and shook Sadam's hand during the time that Sadam was using them. This picture was broadcast world-wide.

The US government has all too often been in favor of WMD.   No democracy here.

Even Fox "news" had a commentator that stated that the law that karl rove may have violated says a CIA agent's "identity" cannot be revealed. Doesn't mention revealing the _name_ of the agent. The criticisms of Joe Wilson coming up now are just further Republican propaganda.   

I hope Rove gets indicted but I doubt it. Fortunately, the tide is turning for Bush and his cronies.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:45 PM

Yeah, seems that folks just don'ty "believe" them like they once did... Problem with "believin'" is that involves trust and seesm every month, the trucst factor goes down and down fir the Bushites....

No, I wouldn't expect some of the died-in-the-woolers 'round this jojnt to admit it but lookin' much like yer guy is cooked...

I don't think that even if he nominated Ted Kennedy to the Supreme Court that he can salvage his presidency... It's on the ropes and Rove is on the ropes an'...

...and the American people are beginnin' to see it that way for themselves....

Corruption and evilness don't win in the end...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,RoveGate
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 10:54 PM

"Vice President Dick Cheney's top aide was among the sources for a Time magazine reporter's story about the identity of a CIA officer, the reporter said Sunday.

Until last week, the White House had insisted for nearly two years that vice presidential chief of staff Lewis Libby and presidential adviser Karl Rove were not involved in the leaks of CIA officer Valerie Plame's identity...It is hard to fight a political war and a legal war at the same time. The noose tightens."

More
HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Jul 05 - 11:50 PM

I hope they get Cheney at the same time but most of all, I hope its revealed that Bush put them up to it.

I know...I'm dreamin'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Greg F.
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 11:31 AM

July 17, 2005 : The New York Times
Follow the Uranium
By FRANK RICH

"I am saying that if anyone was involved in that type of activity which I referred to, they would not be working here."
- Ron Ziegler, press secretary to Richard Nixon, defending the presidential aide Dwight Chapin on Oct. 18, 1972. Chapin was convicted in April 1974 of perjury in connection with his relationship to the political saboteur Donald Segretti.

"Any individual who works here at the White House has the confidence of the president. They wouldn't be working here at the White House if they didn't have the president's confidence."
- Scott McClellan, press secretary to George W. Bush, defending Karl Rove on Tuesday.

WELL, of course, Karl Rove did it. He may not have violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act of 1982, with its high threshold of criminality for outing a covert agent, but there's no doubt he trashed Joseph Wilson and Valerie Plame. We know this not only because of Matt Cooper's e-mail, but also because of Mr. Rove's own history. Trashing is in his nature, and bad things happen, usually through under-the-radar whispers, to decent people (and their wives) who get in his way. In the 2000 South Carolina primary, John McCain's wife, Cindy, was rumored to be a drug addict (and Senator McCain was rumored to be mentally unstable). In the 1994 Texas governor's race, Ann Richards found herself rumored to be a lesbian. The implication that Mr. Wilson was a John Kerry-ish girlie man beholden to his wife for his meal ticket is of a thematic piece with previous mud splattered on Rove political adversaries. The difference is that this time Mr. Rove got caught.

Even so, we shouldn't get hung up on him - or on most of the other supposed leading figures in this scandal thus far. Not Matt Cooper or Judy Miller or the Wilsons or the bad guy everyone loves to hate, the former CNN star Robert Novak. This scandal is not about them in the end, any more than Watergate was about Dwight Chapin and Donald Segretti or Woodward and Bernstein. It is about the president of the United States. It is about a plot that was hatched at the top of the administration and in which everyone else, Mr. Rove included, are at most secondary players.

To see the main plot, you must sweep away the subplots, starting with the Cooper e-mail. It has been brandished as a smoking gun by Bush bashers and as exculpatory evidence by Bush backers (Mr. Rove, you see, was just trying to ensure that Time had its facts straight). But no one knows what this e-mail means unless it's set against the avalanche of other evidence, most of it secret, including what Mr. Rove said in three appearances before the grand jury. Therein lies the rub, or at least whatever case might be made for perjury.

Another bogus subplot, long popular on the left, has it that Patrick Fitzgerald, the special prosecutor, gave Mr. Novak a free pass out of ideological comradeship. But Mr. Fitzgerald, both young (44) and ambitious, has no record of Starr- or Ashcroft-style partisanship (his contempt for the press notwithstanding) or known proclivity for committing career suicide. What's most likely is that Mr. Novak, more of a common coward than the prince of darkness he fashions himself to be, found a way to spill some beans and avoid Judy Miller's fate. That the investigation has dragged on so long anyway is another indication of the expanded reach of the prosecutorial web.

Apparently this is finally beginning to dawn on Mr. Bush's fiercest defenders and on Mr. Bush himself. Hence, last week's erection of the stonewall manned by the almost poignantly clownish Mr. McClellan, who abruptly rendered inoperative his previous statements that any suspicions about Mr. Rove are "totally ridiculous." The morning after Mr. McClellan went mano a mano with his tormentors in the White House press room - "We've secretly replaced the White House press corps with actual reporters," observed Jon Stewart - the ardently pro-Bush New York Post ran only five paragraphs of a wire-service story on Page 12. That conspicuous burial of what was front-page news beyond Murdochland speaks loudly about the rising anxiety on the right. Since then, White House surrogates have been desperately babbling talking points attacking Joseph Wilson as a partisan and a liar.

These attacks, too, are red herrings. Let me reiterate: This case is not about Joseph Wilson. He is, in Alfred Hitchcock's parlance, a MacGuffin, which, to quote the Oxford English Dictionary, is "a particular event, object, factor, etc., initially presented as being of great significance to the story, but often having little actual importance for the plot as it develops." Mr. Wilson, his mission to Niger to check out Saddam's supposed attempts to secure uranium that might be used in nuclear weapons and even his wife's outing have as much to do with the real story here as Janet Leigh's theft of office cash has to do with the mayhem that ensues at the Bates Motel in "Psycho."

This case is about Iraq, not Niger. The real victims are the American people, not the Wilsons. The real culprit - the big enchilada, to borrow a 1973 John Ehrlichman phrase from the Nixon tapes - is not Mr. Rove but the gang that sent American sons and daughters to war on trumped-up grounds and in so doing diverted finite resources, human and otherwise, from fighting the terrorists who attacked us on 9/11. That's why the stakes are so high: this scandal is about the unmasking of an ill-conceived war, not the unmasking of a C.I.A. operative who posed for Vanity Fair.

So put aside Mr. Wilson's February 2002 trip to Africa. The plot that matters starts a month later, in March, and its omniscient author is Dick Cheney. It was Mr. Cheney (on CNN) who planted the idea that Saddam was "actively pursuing nuclear weapons at this time." The vice president went on to repeat this charge in May on "Meet the Press," in three speeches in August and on "Meet the Press" yet again in September. Along the way the frightening word "uranium" was thrown into the mix.

By September the president was bandying about the u-word too at the United Nations and elsewhere, speaking of how Saddam needed only a softball-size helping of uranium to wreak Armageddon on America. But hardly had Mr. Bush done so than, offstage, out of view of us civilian spectators, the whole premise of this propaganda campaign was being challenged by forces with more official weight than Joseph Wilson. In October, the National Intelligence Estimate, distributed to Congress as it deliberated authorizing war, included the State Department's caveat that "claims of Iraqi pursuit of natural uranium in Africa," made public in a British dossier, were "highly dubious." A C.I.A. assessment, sent to the White House that month, determined that "the evidence is weak" and "the Africa story is overblown."

AS if this weren't enough, a State Department intelligence analyst questioned the legitimacy of some mysterious documents that had surfaced in Italy that fall and were supposed proof of the Iraq-Niger uranium transaction. In fact, they were blatant forgeries. When Mohamed ElBaradei, the director general of the International Atomic Energy Agency, said as much publicly in the days just before "shock and awe," his announcement made none of the three evening newscasts. The administration's apocalyptic uranium rhetoric, sprinkled with mushroom clouds, had been hammered incessantly for more than five months by then - not merely in the State of the Union address - and could not be dislodged. As scenarios go, this one was about as subtle as "Independence Day" and just as unstoppable a crowd-pleaser.

Once we were locked into the war, and no W.M.D.'s could be found, the original plot line was dropped with an alacrity that recalled the "Never mind!" with which Gilda Radner's Emily Litella used to end her misinformed Weekend Update commentaries on "Saturday Night Live." The administration began its dog-ate-my-homework cover-up, asserting that the various warning signs about the uranium claims were lost "in the bowels" of the bureaucracy or that it was all the C.I.A.'s fault or that it didn't matter anyway, because there were new, retroactive rationales to justify the war. But the administration knows how guilty it is. That's why it has so quickly trashed any insider who contradicts its story line about how we got to Iraq, starting with the former Treasury secretary Paul O'Neill and the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke.

Next to White House courtiers of their rank, Mr. Wilson is at most a Rosencrantz or Guildenstern. The brief against the administration's drumbeat for war would be just as damning if he'd never gone to Africa. But by overreacting in panic to his single Op-Ed piece of two years ago, the White House has opened a Pandora's box it can't slam shut. Seasoned audiences of presidential scandal know that there's only one certainty ahead: the timing of a Karl Rove resignation. As always in this genre, the knight takes the fall at exactly that moment when it's essential to protect the king.

    * Copyright 2005 The New York Times Company


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 11:51 AM

"How can conservatives and liberals alike not howl in disgust at these tactics?"

From what I've seen in the Mudcat over the years, most Americans who adopt the label "conservative" seem to have no difficulty whatsoever in shrugging off stuff like that. And my impression is that the other side would would be likely to see that as a sufficient justification for doing the same in reverse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 03:32 PM

*** Frank Rich ***

Three cheers for putting this back stabbing minidrama into perspective.

Lewis Libby and Karl Rove are the bottom feeders. Let's nail the sharks!

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 03:59 PM

Its fun to wait to the end of the thread and watch mudcatters make fools of themselves.   Last week the pundints were on TV saying that Rove was guilty of treason and should be executed.   (Hannity and Colmes)   Another on Micheal Medved said the same.   It didn't matter that he has not even been charged with a crime.   The same people who demand that Ossama get a fair trial, have convicted Rove before he has even been charged with a crime.   What pathetic losers.

A week later and now the democrats liberals and progressives all concede that there was no crime committed.   Does that stop them.   Of course not.   The lemmings go straight ahead making bigger fools of themselves.    They still demand for Rove to be castrated.   And Cheney too if they had their way.   It doesn't matter if he was involved or not.

Matt Cooper was on TV this weekend. He stated that he told Rove about Valerie.   Novac has stated the same.   Lets not let the facts get in the way however.   Cooper also said there was another source.

Any clear thinking (this lets out most of you) person would know that.   Why would Judy Miller be sitting in jail to protect her sources?   it surely wouldn't be to protect Carl Rove.   If matt and Judy had the goods on Rove why would they have not used them during the presidential campaign?

The only liars are democrats, liberals, progressives, and Joseph Wilson.   He stated on record that Cheney sent him to Niger.   Unfortunately, the facts and written documents don't back him up.   His wife sent him.   Than he lied about it over and over.   He says that Iraq didn't buy yellow cakes.   The question is not whether they bought it but whether they ATTEMPTED to buy it. British intelligence stands by their story to this day.   Who do you believe- Wilson the liar or British intelligence.

Of course to maintain her confidentiality, she does a spread in Vanity Fair.   Thats a great idea to keep you identity a secret.   If she need to remain anonamous and nobody could find her, she should have went on Air America.    Air America would be a great witness protection program.

by next week, all the politically driven get rove at any cost partisans will look even more foolish.

2006 is just around the corner. I see us picking up a few more seats.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,The Phantom of the Uproar
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:20 PM

It ain't over 'til it's over, Larry. And it ain't over yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:21 PM

" The only liars are democrats, liberals, progressives, ..." See what I mean?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:32 PM

Poor Larry.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:42 PM

Larry-

Just in case you missed it, Cooper's SECOND SOURCE was Lewis Libby, senior aide to VP Dick Cheney.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 04:49 PM

"The same people who demand that Ossama get a fair trial, have convicted Rove before he has even been charged with a crime."

I think that's stretching it a bit. Perhaps you'd like to name these people so we know who you are referring to.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:32 PM

you know; this is looking like a weed patch[in fact the intire info world is]sow a rumor and it grows and morphs and becomes belived.the media with its he said they said but i can't say who said reporting.
even when it is said to be true,can it be belived,likly not
one person said it so it spreads and becomes gosspiel,lies into thruth and thruth into lies,i can not believe it but even here you read it and agree with it you belive it no matter what.no thought an objectivity what so ever, have a nice day anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Shakey
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 05:38 PM

Would somebody kindly translate that for me.

Thanks in advance


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Metchosin
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:15 PM

Dunno, sounds a bit like English, as spoken by Bush, to me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:32 PM

"You know, this is looking like a weed patch. (In fact the intire info world is.) Sow a rumor and it grows and morphs and becomes believed. The media with its "he said, they said, but I can't say who said reporting", even when it is said to be true, can it be believed? Likely not. One person said it, so it spreads and becomes gospel. Lies into thruth and thruth into lies. I cannot believe it. But even here you read it, and agree with it. You believe it no matter what. No thought (and?) objectivity whatsoever. Have a nice day anyway."

(Am I close?)

Maybe he's talking about all of the lies the Bush administration told (and the news media spread) to get us into war with Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 06:38 PM

*G*


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Kaleea
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:05 PM

A politician lie? What a new concept!
    "I am not a crook."
             -some yahoo that used to work in Washington D.C.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 08:08 PM

larry k's response is laughably infantile.
who do you believe wilson the liar? or how bout Bush the liar..
the Bush administration is number one in credibility..

wasnt that attempt to 'letthem eat yellow cake' evidence printed
on some phoney stationery from some previous administration.
(According to the Italian Secret service, it was a mickey mouse attempt)

oh by the way did you know Rove's lawyer had previously accepted $500,000 US in gold bullion from a colombian drug cartel. Of course were not naming any names.
ONe thing is fairly clear. with the Iraq insurgency somewhere in its death throes or possibly 12 more years -- if the US is in Iraq in 2008 look for a democrat in the WHitehouse.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 09:09 PM

Thanks GregF fir the Frank Rich column... It was a great read and one that larryK apparently didn't want to be bothered reading or he wouldn't have followed it with a response that ptr aptly defines as "laughably infanitle"...

But, whereas I see the logic if Rich's obsevations, and can't find faulth with them, I still would like to see Karl Rove go down... He us a creep and a pathological liar... Folks like that shouldn't be rewarded... If he didn't come from the mneyed calss he;s be doing time in some penitentury...

Like Rich pointed out, whether Rove goes or not, the Bush prersidency is unravelin' and his legacy will be that of the worse president since, ahhhhh, ahhhhhh.....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 09:34 PM

gee...the Republicans sure understood evasion and nit-picky definitions when the statement was:

"I did NOT have sex with that woman, Miss Lewinsky"... but they don't see any problem with:
"I did NOT reveal the woman's name, I only confirmed it when they guessed what I was getting at..."

sheeesh!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 09:52 PM

After a big ol' "You know, the gal married to Joe Wilson" sized HINT!!!!

With "I probably have said more than I should have" as the *kicker* just in case Rove thought that the reporters hadn't grasped the full intent of the hint....

Youi know what??? This whole defense is purdy danged retarded!!! Excuse my political incorrectness but it realy has...

Bobert

(But, BObert... Now Righteos LarryK will jump down yer throat fir using the "r" word... )

Oh, horrors.... Over 100,000 people dead from LaryyK's hero's war and now I'm the culprit??? Typical Repub thinkin' these days... Blame all yer mistakes on others... Normal....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 10:00 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 10:03 PM

thing is, Rove is NOT a dumb fellow. He knows when not to say stuff, and he understands how to keep BUSH from blabbing the wrong things by feeding him short, concise answers for most occasions....but Rove, after 5 years of pulling strings and watching puppets dance, has gotten smug in his power and overconfident in his notion of what is permissible when you fee' 'righteous', and he can't resist pushing his luck and doing one more bit of smearing of his 'enemies'.

Now I don't know whether I hope he is fired, or whether I hope he stays where he is so we can keep an eye on him......


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 18 Jul 05 - 10:12 PM

Larry--

Thanks so much for your (as always) calm, lucid and well-reasoned statement of the case. I wouldn't have expected less from you.

"If she need (sic) to remain anonamous (sic) and nobody could find her (sic) she should have went (sic) on Air America". That one sentence speaks worlds about the people behind Bush's "mandate". I am of course including your good self in that number.

You have however glossed over an unpleasant core fact-- (I wonder why)--cited in the Wall St. Journal (that leftist rag, as I like to say): Wall St Journal, 18 July 2005: "White House spokesman Scott McClellan said two years ago that neither Mr. Rove nor Mr. Libby had been involved in revealing Ms. Plame's identity. Accounts by Mr. Cooper AND MR. ROVE-- (my emphasis added) -- show Mr. Rove was involved in discussions of her CIA employment with reporters who later wrote about it. Mr. Cooper says he discussed the matter with Mr. Libby as well".

As you may have perhaps heard, facts are stubborn things.

Don't bother to quote a Wall St. Journal editorial back to me. My quote is from the reporting. Perhaps someday you can get someone to explain to you the difference, in reputable media, between reporting and editorial comment.






Also, let nobody mistake Rove, Bush, and their apologists for conservatives. They have proven themselves, in spades, to be demogogues and reactionaries of the most blatant stripe.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Greg F.
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:40 AM

Also, let nobody mistake Rove, Bush, and their apologists for conservatives. They have proven themselves, in spades, to be demogogues and reactionaries of the most blatant stripe.

Unfortunately, the real conservatives ain't figured this out and are still toadying to the BuShites.

Kinda like the real Christians [always assuming there are any] are still carrying the can for the "christian"[sic] Fundamentalists.

Only time will tell if either group wakes up....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:46 AM

never heard of Karl Rove -BUT


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Leadfingers
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:46 AM

we'll have another hundredrh!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 09:51 AM

Larry:

Buying slime is a poor choice.

Choose wisely, grasshopper!!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,RoveGate
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:35 AM

"Just a quarter of Americans think the White House is fully cooperating in the federal investigation of the leak of a CIA operative's identity, a number that's declined sharply since the investigation began. And three-quarters say that if presidential adviser Karl Rove was responsible for leaking classified information, it should cost him his job.

President Bush USED to agree with 3/4 of Americans. Not anymore."

More HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 06:05 PM

had a relitive who had an accident and was found to be brain dead.yet his heart was still beating.we did not know what to do with him.you see we never had a liberal in the family before.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 10:55 PM

JPK:

It would be nice if you could raise your head out of the swamp long enough to say something intelligent and articulate.

If it is not clear tyo you that Rove is an unmitigated liar, you must be wearing the thickest rose-colored glasses ever made.

And if all you can offer is mindless half-baked jibes, japes and caterwauls, I'd personally prefer you said nothing at all.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 11:01 PM

Hey, Amos, like why would you expect something intellegent from an unintellegent earth-form???

Hey, a rose is a rose and an idiot is an idiot...

Some things never change...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 19 Jul 05 - 11:01 PM

Amos,

Freedom of speech means letting even people you disagree with talk.

.....


Should I presume you feel that members of the executive branch who commit felonies should lose their jobs?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 12:45 AM

"Our friends and colleagues have difficult jobs gathering the intelligence, which helps, for example, to prevent terrorist attacks against Americans at home and abroad. They sometimes face great personal risk and must spend long hours away from family and friends. They serve because they love this country and are committed to protecting it from threats from abroad and to defending the principles of liberty and freedom. They do not expect public acknowledgement for their work, but they do expect and deserve their government's protection of their covert status.

For the good of our country, we ask you to please stand up for every man and woman who works for the U.S. intelligence community and help protect their ability to live their cover.

Sincerely yours,
Larry C. Johnson, former Analyst, CIA

JOINED BY: Mr. Brent Cavan, former Analyst, CIA
Mr. Vince Cannistraro, former Case Officer, CIA
Mr. Michael Grimaldi, former Analyst, CIA
Mr. Mel Goodman, former senior Analyst, CIA
Col. W. Patrick Lang (US Army retired), former Director, Defense Humint Services, DIA
Mr. David MacMichael, former senior estimates officer, National Intelligence Council, CIA
Mr. James Marcinkowski, former Case Officer, CIA
Mr. Ray McGovern, former senior Analyst and PDB Briefer, CIA
Mr. Jim Smith, former Case Officer, CIA
Mr. William C. Wagner, former Case Officer, CIA"

Posted by David Corn


Its my hope that the CIA gets good and mad at the Bush administration. If they value the principles of liberty and freedom, then maybe, just maybe, they'll expose the whole gang of liars and crooks.

Diana


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:19 AM

What would lead us to believe that the CIA is being honest
with us? Some of the things that are used to criticize past Republican
Administrations were the work of the CIA. And also happened during Democrat regimes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:27 AM

"A Rose is a Rose and an Idiot is an Idiot" - it is becoming increasingly more difficult to differentiate as I remember my Grandmothers advice from years ago,
"NEVER argue with an idiot, someone might walk by and would not be able to tell who's who."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:35 AM

BB:

I didn't ask him not to talk. I asked him to stop talking shit. Surely you see the difference.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:45 AM

I received the following in an e-mail from a friend. In my opinion, it says it all:

"Do you think Charlie McCarthy is going to fire Edgar Bergen?'

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,RoveGate
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 10:10 AM

"It's no wonder the Supreme Court announcement [was made last night]. It's looking like this week's revelations are going to show that Fitzgerald has enough to indict Rove for obstruction of justice [and 18 U.S.C. 1001, the Martha Stewert crime]. "

More HERE


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Metchosin
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 12:31 PM

Rove in trouble for the same crime as Martha Stewart? Don't be silly. Most know that not telling the whole truth about fiddling with stocks and money is a lot more serious crime than jepardizing human life.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 01:22 PM

"Kinda like the real Christians [always assuming there are any] are still carrying the can for the "christian"[sic] Fundamentalists."

Greg, I definitely agree with what you say about real conservatives. I know some, and they tend to alternate between being confused (wanting to speak out, but not wanting to agree with "liberals") and being anywhere from dubious to furious at the actions of the Bush administration.

But just to set the record straight:—    liberal Christians are not just sitting back quietly while the Fundies try to usurp Christianity. There is a fair number of prominent Christians who, for a long time have been speaking out loudly against this narrow view and its adherents' attempts to take over as spokespersons for all Christianity—and take over the government with their "America is a Christian country" war-cry.    One of these is retired Episcopal bishop John Shelby Spong, with his books like Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism and another is Rev. Barbara Rossing with her book, The Rapture Exposed (she wanted to title it The Rapture Racket, but that frightened her publisher). These are only two of hundreds. Not only do they write books and articles, but they go around speaking at churches all over the country and giving lectures in various venues.

One of the most prominent recently is Rev. Jim Wallis. Right now, he's traveling from city to city talking at churches, giving book signings in bookstores, giving lectures, and appearing on television and radio talk shows whenever they have the guts to give him air-time, flogging his recently published book, God's Politics : Why the Right Gets It Wrong and the Left Doesn't Get It (interview HERE).

If the word is not getting around, it's because the media (that horrible "liberal" media) gives the Fundies a lot of air-time and generally tends to ignore people like Wallis. Also, the Fundies can really get vicious about the things Spong, Rossing, Wallis, and others say and sometimes organize boycotts of any station or other media outlet that is willing to give them air-time.

Up until recently, in this country religion, has been relatively safe from government interference. But government is definitely not safe from religion. "Liberal" Christians like Wallis recognize that if groups like the religious Right get the foothold they want in government, then freedom of religion—and freedom from religion—will be a thing of the past. Kiss the First Amendment goodbye.

Karl Rove's perfidy has much more far-reaching implications than most people realize.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 02:04 PM

Tomorrow night - July 21 - a course in disecting God's Politics is going to start at a local hall. The hope is that the subject will be - and is beng - discussed across the country and that the people in response will be heard.

I'm sure that there are people across the country that are trying to be heard, are trying to get grassroots actions going. We're going to try to add our bit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 04:05 PM

Amos,

So, you would only regulate WHAT he says? Sounds like a liberal definition of free speech to me... ( sarcasm)


IF he is talking shit, it only hurts his own cause.

IF he is expressing an opinion, YOU are trying to stifle free expression.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 04:11 PM

bb, choose your windmills- it is difficult, to say the least, to stifle anyone's BS on this forum. *G* However, calling someone on their BS just may make them stop and think.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Frankham
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 04:22 PM

Karl Rove is merely using the Christian Right as a political tool.
He realizes that many of these people are off the wall. If he goes around the corridors of Washington whistling "Onward Christian Soldiers'" it's only because he has a vested interest in the success of these fanatics. He doesn't believe it himself but it makes his Puppet George stronger.

Karl Rove is the unofficial president of the U.S.

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 04:28 PM

I think you're right, Frankham, but it doesn't give one much hope for his being punished. It will be interesting to see how this plays out. At some point, I still believe, the bush administration's shenanigans will beome so blatant that the Great Faithful's eyes will suddenly spring wide open.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:20 PM

the sad thing is,your all beliveing every thing you read,if it is what you want to belive it is all the easer.
you should all know by now that the info media in all its forms,is suspect as to what is/isn't true.
all should be taking this in[regardless of what you want to belive,either way] with a bucket of salt.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,The Phantom of the Uproar
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:26 PM

So, jpk, you are the only one around here with the capacity for judgment? Keep on believing that if it makes you happy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 05:37 PM

who is judging,can not do it with out some facts which no one has.
all we got is he said she said,and being under oath does not mean it is true either.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:14 PM

"and being under oath does not mean it is true either."

Isn't that the main point?

Rove lied. People died-and continue to die {and be severly injured} in a war that is based upon lies.

Not to mention the fact that undercover agents are reported to have died as a result of the outing of Plame's name and the name of corporation where she worked.

Shame on us if there are no indictments and convictions for traitors to American freedom & justice.


Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 06:56 PM

If Rove knew that "Joseph Wilson's wife" was a CIA operative, I don't think there is any doubt but that he knew more than that - including the rumour that Valerie Plame was one of those brought home from her theatre 10-12 years ago when turncoat CIA agent, Ames, waw nabbed, because of fear that she might have been uncovered and put at peril. Intelligence gathering operations by their very nature require long-term, patient relationships. If a foreign power becomes aware of an operative being outed, it might easily be worthwhile to them to trace the relationships they had while they were working in their country. Karl Rove is an arrogant man who thought he could get away with anything. That's my opinion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:21 PM

This is interesting to me. Azizi said "Not to mention the 'fact' that undercover agents are reported to have died as a result of the outing of Plame's name and the name of the corporation where she worked".
I am not doubting you at all, I just want to read this for myself.
Please, when you get time, give us a source we can go to.
Thanks


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 09:32 PM

Jpk - You said, "the sad thing is,your all beliveing every thing you read,if it is what you want to belive it is all the easer.
you should all know by now that the info media in all its forms,is suspect as to what is/isn't true.
all should be taking this in[regardless of what you want to belive,either way] with a bucket of salt."

I have been reading alot about Karl Rove. One of the things I noted was the suspicion that he was a closet "gay". While I don't care if he is gay or not, I do think that if it is true, the religious right might like to know since he has been bilking them for millions.

I take this information with a grain of salt. What about you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 20 Jul 05 - 11:02 PM

BB:

You are missing the point. Slanderous insults are not an effort to communicate, but to upset or shut others up.

I am always interested in anything he or anyone else actually has to say as a communication.

But if all he can do is emit negativity I would prefer he not do it here. That's my preference, and I am voicing it.

You may prefer that he post his stupid little remarks. If so, that's your preference, and welcome to it.

I prefer it when people use their brains instead of their lower GI to communicate.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 11:39 AM

Snippets:

"The paragraph identifying her as the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV was clearly marked to show that it contained classified material at the "secret" level, two sources said. The CIA classifies as "secret" the names of officers whose identities are covert, according to former senior agency officials.

"Anyone reading that paragraph should have been aware that it contained secret information, though that designation was not specifically attached to Plame's name and did not describe her status as covert, the sources said. It is a federal crime, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, for a federal official to knowingly disclose the identity of a covert CIA official if the person knows the government is trying to keep it secret."

And later in the article:

"Almost all of the memo is devoted to describing why State Department intelligence experts did not believe claims that Saddam Hussein had in the recent past sought to purchase uranium from Niger. Only two sentences in the seven-sentence paragraph mention Wilson's wife.

    The memo was delivered to Secretary of State Colin L. Powell on July 7, 2003, as he headed to Africa for a trip with President Bush aboard Air Force One. Plame was unmasked in a syndicated column by Robert D. Novak seven days later."

More


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Stephen L. Rich
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:11 PM

Q:Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar?

A: Karl Rove is not fat. He weighs only thirty-two pounds. He is hollow.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 21 Jul 05 - 10:18 PM

Ahhhhhh, you might want get yer scales rechecked, Steve....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 12:09 AM

Azizi, my post dated 20 July 05 @9:21

?????????????????????????????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 01:16 PM

Guest G,

I appreciate your persistence. However, with much respect, I'mma haveta do a Rove since I don't recall what my source was for that information. Maybe it was here, and maybe it was there {where ever "there" is}.

On second thought I'm not "doin a Rove" since I believe that Rove is lying BIG TIME.

Although I can recall what {as opposed to who} was my source for asserting that one or more secret agents died as a result of Plame's outing, I know that it was the online print media since I gave up watching television news a long time ago.

And, Guest G., I don't know about you, but it stands to reason to me that there could have been severe consequences to outing a secret agent and passing along information in super doober top secret memos {information that isn't even supposed to be shared with 'friendly international governments}. Included in those severe consequences might have been the Valarie Plame's death, the death of other people who could be tied to her, and the compromising of years of undercover activities.

And less we forget, thousands of people have died and been severely injured as a result of the Iraqui war, a war that -IMHO-was based on lies.

Sp Guest G, that's the best that I can do.

If you want more, paraphrasing the lyrics popularized by singer Eykah Badu, "you gotta call Tryone".


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 01:21 PM

Look upthread, guys:

"Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Rovegate - PM
Date: 14 Jul 05 - 06:50 AM

Truth or Consequences:

"ROVEGATE -- July 10, 2005 --Newsweek magazine is reporting on the contents of a July 11, 2003 email between reporter Matt Cooper and Time Washington bureau chief Michael Duffy that was handed over, along with other email and notes, to special prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald. Although the email shows that Rove talked to Cooper about Ambassador Joe Wilson's wife, there is no mention of how columnist Robert Novak obtained the information on Brewster Jennings & Associates, the carve out brass plate firm that was used by Valerie Plame and her colleagues and which was rolled up as a result of the leak. Rove and his lawyer are trying to limit the spin to Rove "not knowing" Plame's name, let alone that she was a covert CIA agent. Yet Plame's association with a non-official cover (NOC), by default, means that she was covert, pure and simple. Brewster Jennings reportedly "suffered greatly" as a result of the disclosure, according to a knowledgeable source. Another source reported that at least one Brewster Jennings NOC operating in a hostile intelligence environment was executed by counter-intelligence agents as a result of the White House disclosure. Other B&JA assets were forced to abandon their ongoing operations to identify networks involved in weapons of mass destruction proliferation."


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 02:06 PM

Thanks, Amos.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:14 PM

the thing that gets me most is wilson on book,#1 it is not worth reading[i tried]#2without the leak bit for an ending[so to speak],it has nothing to say#3wilson was only a minor dept hack[unless you listen to him]#4mrs wilson also was only minor player.
how much money has revolved around this mess and the book,did wilson have a backseat involvement we don't know of.
kind of like the timing of woodwards book and deep throat comeing out.
also whats to be gained by rove telling cooper that it was ok to blab about it.
also is it possible that the one sitting in jail does not want to say she got it all from wilson??

it is possible.but whether it is or isn't,we may never know.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:35 PM

I see. It's okay to out an undercover CIA operative as long as they are only a minor player. Thank goodness the Whitehouse didn't out a biggie. Mighty patriotic of them I say. In fact, they deserve medals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:49 PM

I disagree with most of what you say there, jpk, including your repeated insinuations about Woodward's book coming out so quickly after Deep Throat outed himself. FWIW, Woodward didn't have to start from scratch- Deep Throat's identity was no secret to him.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 05:52 PM

who is saying anything about right or wrong,only pointing out items of possible intrest and interesting thoughts on matter.
also if you dig a little you will find that the cia figured her usefullness[what little there was]was shot when she first took up with wilson.
also take the whole post together,not just snippets of it,it is like a bible thumper taking only parts of book that support what he wants,but when you read the whole thing or a different part,it says something totaly different.
that has happened to this whole mole hill so far,plus to much finger pointing and whinning and not enough real questions being put forth.
like maybe lets start following all the money an see where it goes.
have a good day an god bless!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 06:01 PM

It appears that 'experts' don't agree with you, jpk. Unless you outrank them?

"WASHINGTON - Former U.S. intelligence officers criticized    President Bush on Friday for not disciplining Karl Rove in connection with the leak of the name of a CIA officer, saying Bush's lack of action has jeopardized national security.

"In a hearing held by Senate and House Democrats examining the implications of exposing Valerie Plame's identity, the former intelligence officers said Bush's silence has hampered efforts to recruit informants to help the United States fight the war on terror. Federal law forbids government officials from revealing the identity of an undercover intelligence officer.

"I wouldn't be here this morning if President Bush had done the one thing required of him as commander in chief — protect and defend the Constitution," said Larry Johnson, a former CIA analyst. "The minute that Valerie Plame's identity was outed, he should have delivered a strict and strong message to his employees."

Sez the CIA


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: DougR
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:59 PM

Boy, for a lot of self-professed liberals, some of you are really blood thirsty! I guess it depends on whose blood is shed, right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 07:59 PM

James Marcinkowski, a former CIA case office and a former prosecutor testified:

" There is a very serious message here. Before you shine up your American flag lapel pin and affix your patriotism to your sleeve, think about what the impact your actions will have on the security of the American people. Think about whether your partisan obfuscation is creating confidence in the United States in general and the CIA in particular. If not, a true patriot would shut up.

Those who take pride in their political ability to divert the issue from the fundamental truth ought to be prepared to take their share of the responsibility for the continuing damage done to our national security.

When this unprecedented act first occurred, the president could have immediately demanded the resignation of all persons even tangentially involved. Or, at a minimum, he could have suspended the security clearances of these persons and placed them on administrative leave. Such methods are routine with police forces throughout the country. That would have at least sent the right message around the globe, that we take the security of those risking their lives on behalf of the United States seriously. Instead, we have flooded the foreign airwaves with two years of inaction, political rhetoric, ignorance, and partisan bickering. That's the wrong message. In doing so we have not lessened, but increased the threat to the security and safety of the people of the United States."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:01 PM

Go get 'em!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 08:58 PM

It depends on whose pig is being gored, I guess. And somehow, DougR, you never squeal until it is your pig.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 09:20 PM

And, BTW, Dougie... The tables have turned dramitically since 2000 and ***YOU*** are now the "LIBERAL".... And a mighty radical one at that....

I mean, let's examine the facts... You are for huge deficits. You are for using the US's military might to change governments that you don't like???? LIkie where exactly is the conservatism here, my friend???

Well, no whhere at all... That's where....

Maybe you'd like to talk a little bit about just waht being a conservative means to you??? I'm havin' a little trouble figuring you guys out...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 09:39 PM

Doug, I'd like to recommend a book to you. I think you actually have read it because once you recommended it to me--but I read it already.

The Conscience of a Conservative by Barry Goldwater. Reread it and refresh your memory on what a conservative is.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 10:04 PM

Last night I went to a political meeting- we're hoping that cells like this (gasp! Sounds awfully red) are forming all across the country.

The point was made that we are not dealing with Liberal versus Conservative here- it is Liberal versus Radical. We hope to get some Conservatives to join us.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 10:17 PM

They first have to answer the questions that I posed to Dougie, Ebbie, before they are willing to step back from the "winner's circle" mindset and ask themselves, "Hey, what do I really believe???"

One thing about progressives is that we ain't got that winner's circle syndrome messin' with us so our core values stay purdy much unchanged, Dems, Repubs 'er Whatevers...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Ron Davies
Date: 22 Jul 05 - 10:57 PM

Oh, Rove and Bush are conservatives all right. But, as I pointed out earlier, the word is now spelled differently--either D-E-M-O G-O-G-U-E, in recognition of their mastery of the politics of hate and fear, or R-E-A-C-T-I-O-N-A-R-Y, as in their respect for the natural world and for science.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Frankham
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 03:43 PM

Larry Johnson, Valerie Plame's classmate at the CIA is a registered Republican and gone on record as saying that he is ashamed of the GOP and their tactics.

It appears that the GOP is no longer conservative but proligate, spendthrift, impulsive, rash and irresponsible. Everything that the GOP has accused liberals and dems of having done, they do themselves. They lie, they smear and justify it by discrediting their "enemies". Their smear against Wilson is ongoing.

The actual smear tactic seems to be the standard OP (MO) of the GOP. Rove inherited it from Lee Atwater who used it to advantage during the Dukakis primary.

It may be that Rove and company have committed treason and it would be in the best interest of the US if they were investigated for this. Otherwise, the CIA is compromised. If not, this means that there can be no meaningful security for the US.

Bush has finally managed to alienate the CIA. Who will it be next?

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:18 PM

lets see,nobody wants to have novaks head,or the publishers either.seems that they would be just as responsable as rove,hmmmm.
seems that the very defenders of the cia are the same ones that were beating them up over the iran contra bit[good guy/bad guy,depends on which day and issue i guess]
and you are siting the very people under scrutiney as to there ability,a rather one sided veiw.
and congressional hearing rarely ever bring the truth to lite.
also i am no great fan of rove or any of the rest of the life long politician or public [sic]servant[no such thing]


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 05:59 PM

jpk, Karl Rove is a top-ranked confidant and advisor to the President of the United States. On the other hand, it is Media's job to keep an eye on and report on what a country does. Very different functions, might you agree?

As for Robert Novak- because of the secret deal he has made with SOMEBODY, we don't yet know just what he has done. All we know for sure is that he is the one who first outed Valerie Plame. It may have been- probably was- irresponsible and if so, he'll have to pay a penalty for that. I don't like the man but I'm willing to wait until the facts are on the table.

Ad for how one feels about the job the CIA does, of course it depends "on the day and issue." The CIA is an agency. We are not required to give it our unquestioning love and devotion.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Peace
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 06:01 PM

And thank the Lord for that. They are a disgusting agency with agendas that have no commerce with democracy or the Constitution.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Jul 05 - 10:30 PM

Well, well, well...

Seems that with the Senate havin' scheduled the hearing's on Bush's Supreme Court nominee fir September, if Bush thought that he would be taking the heat off Rove with the nomination.... it has backfired.

Rove is back on the front page of the Washington Post and New York Times... Hmmmmm? Maybe Bush actaully called the shots on this one himself rather tyhan let Rove call them? Get my drift???

Maybe Bush has figgured out that Rove has to go??? Hmmmmm? Tghin about it... Rove goes, or pretends to go, and Bush gats a claen slate... He can get up on his soapbox ans scream, "The Devil made me do it" and all will be forgiven??? Just like the little weizel did when he had a couple DUI's and a few too many lines of a suspiscious powdery substance up the ol' beezer???

Yeah, I can see it now... Bush becomes not only born again but born ***yet*** again... Maybe the masses will think he is the second coming and folks will wait in lines atthe White house gates to be healed of leperasy or, worse yet, being Democrats...

Hmmmmmmm?

Hmmmmmmm, part B????

Think about it...

(Meanwhile, unbeknownst to anyone, in a secret room unner the White House there is a certain little fat man pullin' levers...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 03:55 AM

Ebbie,

"I don't like the man but I'm willing to wait until the facts are on the table."


But only for Novak, and not Rove?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 04:36 AM

Rove has made his statements, bb. By his own admissions, he DID talk about Valerie Plame. Novak hasn't said anything publicly. Yet.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 07:44 AM

Hey, the fact that Rove is downplaying the manner in which he outed out a CIA operative doesn't change the fact that he did it...

It don't matter if it was a casual remark or a serious remark. It don't matter if it happened at the beginnin', middle or end of a conversation. He did it. It doesn't matter if he named her personally since he named her thru husband's name. Or that's his story. But, story or not, in namin' her husband it don't take no rocker sergeon to follow the dots here. He did it.

This defense, if that's what one can call it, is so full of crap it's silly, because bottom, they admit he did it???

What am I missin' here other than why Novak, a Bushite with a typewriter, ain't in jail gettin' the cell all comfy fir his buddy, Fat Boy Karl...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Frankham
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:58 AM

The crime has been committed but the defense rests with the authority of the White House. It's "traitorgate".

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Jul 05 - 09:33 PM

Hmmmmm, Frank, are you insinuatin' that Bush is also a big fat liar and should be arrested fir treason????


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:06 PM

ebbie,as far as disagreeing with me goes,go for it,at least we know we agree we can disagree.be willin ta bet that we could sit ta a cold one an probably get along fine,no letin it get under the skin.
have a nice day an god bless

maybe that is what the big boys need ta try,teeshirts an shorts with a cold bud[or whichever].


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 06:25 PM

Nice thought, jpk, but it doesn't address the point. Politeness, good will and camaraderie are good but dialogue is important. Sitting with a cold one (Make mine Alaska Amber) is good only as far as it goes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:01 PM

Yeah, I unnerstand that Bush can be a fine feller to be around after a few, ahhhhhhh, pretzels....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 09:16 PM

Hey, Bobert's on to something there...

If they get rid of Rove, who's going to administer the "pretzels" when W doesn't behave?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:09 PM

Hoo boy!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:16 PM

Well, in answer to the question asked in the thread title, judging from photos I've seen of him, I'd say that Karl Rove is a little fat liar.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:41 PM

Hey, Don, that's like splittin' hairs here... You don't have to be all that big to be a "big fat liar".... All ya gotta do is, ahhhhh, lie as if you were bigger.... an' fatter.....

Everything is relative...

B:)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 10:56 PM

He's such a little man in so many ways. He looks like a cuddly little cherub and you want to just wrap an arm around his head and give him a noogie.

But you're right. That doesn't stop him from being a big, fat liar.

Machiavelli, at least, had the decency to look a bit villainous.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Greg F.
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:34 PM

That's OK- Rove's buddy Norquist looks a bit more like a villain. Rove's only one of many, anyway- The BuShites have a whole pantheon of these obnoxious little shits doing their dirty work.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: number 6
Date: 25 Jul 05 - 11:54 PM

Is Karl Rove a big fat liar ...

yes .....

and there is nothing we can do about it.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Karl Rove
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 01:03 AM

Ah'm not fat


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 09:50 PM

Ahhhhh, nice to live in world without mirrors.... Yer fat, get over it, ya' big fat liein' weisel....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:12 PM

I notice that Guest Karl Rove {26 Jul 05 - 01:03 AM} didn't deny that he is a big liar.

Hmmm...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: number 6
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 10:51 PM

He's not denying because he did lie....

and he is smug,comfy and secure knowing there is nothing we can do about it.

... and yes he is fat. Fatter than his good buddy and pal Carl Novak.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 26 Jul 05 - 11:18 PM

I think the reason he isn't married is because he probably has some rather large "trust" issues.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Kael Rove
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:19 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: DougR
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:03 AM

I had some catching up to do as I've been in the cool, cool, State of Alaska. I'm back in the hot, hot, State of Arizona now, though, and ready to tackle the difficult questions posed by ole Bobert, Don, Ebbie, etc. My answer: 1964 is a long way behind us folks, and conservatisim hasn't changed that much, but the world has. One thing that never seems to change, though, is the pessimism of the liberals who profess to be progressives (sometimes I really think THEY think they are). It's good to be back!
DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 01:17 AM

Wayyyyyy back!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 02:01 AM

Waaaay back and to the right. *G*

Welcome back, Doug. Where in Alaska did you go? If you were in Juneau, I'm going to be miffed- you don't call, you don't write...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:53 AM

I was wonderin' why things have been so peaceful of late.... Now I got it figgured out... Waaaay Back Dougie been outta town...

Ahhhh, yo Dougie... Just how do Karl Rove's lies make progressive thinking people pessimists, anyway? That's kinda a giant leap of logic fir this ol' hillbilly... Even hurt the Wes Ginny Slide Rule's head...

But good to see yer illogical, yet always the consumate Bush loyalist self, back...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 12:17 PM

You mean conservative principles change when conditions change, Doug? I wonder how Goldwater would view the current batch of "conservatives" deficit spending in a manner that makes even the most hard-charging "tax-and-spend" liberal turn pale. Or start wars of empire. Or compromise civil liberties. Or snoop into people's bedrooms.

That's not conservatism as I understand it.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 05:14 PM

maybe if rove had of gone to the right law school,he could have learned how to get away with it.maybe hill or bill could give him some pointers.and as far as getting hitched, maybe he's looking to find the big score, kinda like kerry[2 time winner in the money marriage racket]


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 06:01 PM

deflect, deflect, deflect


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: number 6
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 07:54 PM

I hear that Karl Rove is getting a rather hefty (yes in fat) salary increase.

And there's nothin' we can do about it

I apologise for my error in my previous response to this thread.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:00 PM

re comments about Rove's marriage status, I understand that he is married, and that this is his 2nd married...

Not that this has anything at all to do with his lying and possibly treasonous actions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jul 05 - 08:01 PM

Let me see...

A memeber of the Executive branch who is being investigated for possibly having commited a felony should be removed from office, even before the investigation has been completed. Is that correct?

From what I hear, the "agent" in question had not been covert for 8 years- and the law gives protection for 5 years after being covert. So, what law was broken?

As for Rove "admitting" anything, Clinton admitted lying to a grand jury ( a felony) and Kerry admitted to actions that were treason. I gues it just depends on whether you think that the law should apply to everyone, or just the people you don't approve of...

Must be that Wes Ginny Slide Rule...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:34 AM

Did anyone see a few days ago where the NY Times said, regarding Rove, that "no crime was committed"? Will have to get that on here.

Secondly, where has all the talk of this horrible "crime" been the last few days? Scouring the NY Times and the W. Post reveals zero.

I honestly think, true or not regarding Rove, that we might have a lot more to fear from the possibility of mad cow disease.
Not to insinuate that several may be posting here.

Yes, Ms. Plame had been an analyst the past 8 years, not covert.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:40 AM

previous post by G.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 04:53 PM

maybe madcow got its start in a political circle,and is just now starting to spread to the more intelligent classes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 05:19 PM

What the newspapers report and what we think doesn't mean doodly-squat.

I'm waiting to see if there will be Grand Jury indictments.

If "justice" still means anything in the USA, there should be a bunch of them since IMO "Treasongate" is far bigger than Iran-Contra, Watergate, and Clinton's affair with Monica.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:10 PM

Azizi

"What the newspapers report and what we think doesn't mean doodly-squat. "

100 % agreement with you on this.



"I'm waiting to see if there will be Grand Jury indictments. "

100% agreement with you on this.



"If "justice" still means anything in the USA, there should be a bunch of them since IMO "Treasongate" is far bigger than Iran-Contra, Watergate, and Clinton's affair with Monica. "

Given your first two points, I do not see where this came from. Did he commit a crime? How do you know? Newspaper reports? No grand jury YET...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 07:39 PM

beardedbruce, I wrote that what the newspapers report or what we say [here or anywhere else] about what some are calling "Treasongate" means nothing at all.

However, I did not mean to imply that newspapers shouldn't be writing about this, or that Americans & others shouldn't be sharing our opinions.

When I googled "Rove outing Plame" today there were 207,000 possible story hits. Here is one of them:

"July 03, 2005
Rove Confirms Meeting, Denies "Outing" Plame
The Houston Chronicle reports that:

Karl Rove, one of President Bush's closest advisers, spoke with a Time magazine reporter days before the name of a CIA operative surfaced in the media but did not leak the information, a lawyer for Rove said Saturday in a new admission in the case.
And the Washington Times reports that Newsweek
... reported on its Web site Saturday that e-mails surrendered by Time Inc. show Rove was one of Cooper's sources. Newsweek based its report on information from lawyers for witnesses "sympathetic to the White House."
Department of Justice Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald is investigating "the alleged outing of Plame by syndicated columnist Robert Novak on July 14, 2003." Rove has testified before the grand jury three times, most recently in October 2004. Fitzgerald's reach has been broad, including both President Bush and Vice President Cheney,

Matt Cooper, the Time reporter, and Judith Miller, of the New York Times, could be jailed on Wednesday for refusing to cooperate with the grand jury investigation. Neither journalist broke the story naming Valerie Plame as a CIA agent; that was Robert Novak, a conservative columnist. Time subsequently published a story naming Plame; theh NY Times did not. The Guardian reports that "Novak has refused to say whether he has testified or been subpoenaed."

According to Newsweek:
Novak appears to have made some kind of arrangement with the special prosecutor, and other journalists who reported on the Plame story have talked to prosecutors with the permission of their sources...

In early October 2003, NEWSWEEK reported that immediately after Novak's column appeared in July, Rove called MSNBC "Hardball" host Chris Matthews and told him that Wilson's wife was "fair game." But White House spokesman Scott McClellan told reporters at the time that any suggestion that Rove had played a role in outing Plame was "totally ridiculous."
Writing in Salon in October 2003, John Dean says that the Bush Administration actions trump former President Nixon:
I thought I had seen political dirty tricks as foul as they could get, but I was wrong. In blowing the cover of CIA agent Valerie Plame to take political revenge on her husband, Ambassador Joseph Wilson, for telling the truth, Bush's people have out-Nixoned Nixon's people. And my former colleagues were not amateurs by any means."

Read more here about Rove Outing Plame

-snip-

After following this story, I have reached the conclusion that Rove and a number of other people are GUILTY AS SIN. But again, my opinion doesn't matter at all.

You might reach the completely opposite opinion-and, with all due respect, it really doesn't matter one way or the other.

What matters is what the Special Prosecuter does and what the Grand Jury concludes.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:07 PM

I agree that they should be writing about it- but your conclusion is like the certainty some in the South had that someone was guilty of a crime because of the color of their skin. "Just because he is a neo-con..." As I said, what was the crime that he commited? The law about covert agents STATES 5 years, and she had been overt for 8- so there was no law broken.... But hell, let's lynch the n*... I mean Neo-con anyway.



I think the matter should be investigated- But I find it interesting how many here who supported Clinton's felony perjury seem to think that people should be held accountable for their crimes... ( not a comment to Azizi, as do not know her opinion of that matter,)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:44 PM

As to the question, was Valerie Plame an undercover agent at the time of her 'outing', apparently the CIA says "yes".

See this article:

The Bush Administration Adopts a Worse-than-Nixonian Tactic:


The Deadly Serious Crime Of Naming CIA Operatives






By JOHN W. DEAN



On July 14, in his syndicated column, Chicago Sun-Times journalist Robert Novak reported that Valerie Plame Wilson - the wife of former ambassador Joseph C. Wilson IV, and mother of three-year-old twins - was a covert CIA agent. (She had been known to her friends as an "energy analyst at a private firm.")

Why was Novak able to learn this highly secret information? It turns out that he didn't have to dig for it. Rather, he has said, the "two senior Administration officials" he had cited as sources sought him out, eager to let him know. And in journalism, that phrase is a term of art reserved for a vice president, cabinet officers, and top White House officials.

On July 17, Time magazine published the same story, attributing it to "government officials." And on July 22, Newsday's Washington Bureau confirmed "that Valerie Plame ... works at the agency [CIA] on weapons of mass destruction issues in an undercover capacity." More specifically, according to a "senior intelligence official," Newsday reported, she worked in the "Directorate of Operations [as an] undercover officer."

In other words, Wilson is/was a spy involved in the clandestine collection of foreign intelligence, covert operations and espionage. She is/was part of a elite corps, the best and brightest, and among those willing to take great risk for their country. Now she has herself been placed at great - and needless - risk.

Why is the Administration so avidly leaking this information? The answer is clear. Former ambassador Wilson is famous, lately, for telling the truth about the Bush Administration's bogus claim that Niger uranium had gone to Saddam Hussein. And the Bush Administration is punishing Wilson by targeting his wife. It is also sending a message to others who might dare to defy it, and reveal the truth.

No doubt the CIA, and Mrs. Wilson, have many years, and much effort, invested in her career and skills. Her future, if not her safety, are now in jeopardy.

After reading Novak's column, The Nation's Washington Editor, David Corn, asked, "Did senior Bush officials blow the cover of a US intelligence officer working covertly in a field of vital importance to national security--and break the law--in order to strike at a Bush administration critic and intimidate others?"

The answer is plainly yes. Now the question is, will they get away with it?"

Read more HERE

****

And beardedbruce, I don't think that ANY government official or anyone else should lie to the Grand Jury {or lie to anyone else} be they Democrat or Republican.

I repeat, I'm waiting to see what will happen with the Grand Jury. It should be interesting.


Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 08:59 PM

No use arguin' with BB, MiziAzizi... He is hooked into the Bush propagand machine and will defend Bush and all his croonies fir any offensse that they have committed...

All you are gettin' is what Rush Limbaugh or some other right winged Bushite apologist has told him to say...

He is a "True Believer" at the highest level...

See, the big twist now is now "Criminal offense" rather than just the act of outing of Valerie Plume... Bush has changed his story just the way he has changed his story about why the US invaded Iraq... Rove admits he did it bit then he says it was done casually, at the end of phone converstaion... Like what kind of defense is that???

But that's what we have...

More lies form the Bushites...

(Yawn)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:11 PM

Bobert,


"No use arguin' with BB, MiziAzizi... He is hooked into the Bush propagand machine and will defend Bush and all his croonies fir any offensse that they have committed..."

I have said that if he commited a crime he should be tried- Bobart lie #1




"All you are gettin' is what Rush Limbaugh or some other right winged Bushite apologist has told him to say..."

I have stated that I do not listen to Rush or any other political shit. Bobert lie #2



"He is a "True Believer" at the highest level..."

I have stated a number of disagreements I have with the Bush administration policy,- Bobert lie #4.



"See, the big twist now is now "Criminal offense" rather than just the act of outing of Valerie Plume... Bush has changed his story just the way he has changed his story about why the US invaded Iraq... Rove admits he did it bit then he says it was done casually, at the end of phone converstaion... Like what kind of defense is that???"


Was a crime commited, or not? I don't have the secret information about guilt that you seem to.



"More lies form the Bushites..."

As I have stated, by your definition I am not a Bushite, and if you continue to call me one I will inflict upon you the threats that YOU have made against those you think have called you a racist.


But I WILL call you a bigot, in matters pertaining to anyone you think of a a conservative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:47 PM

and for those counting...


Bobert's 3rd lie, because of his attacking people rather than discussing the facts-



"Me and Satan ain't been on good terms of late... "


IMO, Bobert, you are on excellent terms.

Try not to burn a cross on my lawn...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 09:47 PM

Well, bb, maybe you'd like to review those disagreements you have with Bush... Seems every time I click on any thing you write it's in defense of Bush or one of his boys....

Yeah you can call me a liar all you want... That is your M.O., just as it it Karl R$ove and Bush's M.O. These folks don't cop to nuthin'... Thay always deflect thier misgivings onto someone else...

And just what are you threatenin' to inflict on me, bb???? Maybe you'd lie to refresh my memory as who called me a racist ans what my response was... Oh, please don't take take it out of context but if yer back into callin' me a racist and a liar then I sho nuff would like you to provide an in depth history of my postings that support your observations...

That's what fairness is all about...

As fir the crime committed???? See Los Angeles v. O.J. Simpson...

Hey, when ya get enough lawyers together and ya got a corrupted administration that lied to the American people about why it had, no, make that HAD, to invade Iraq, hey, ....... "If it don't fit, ya' gotta aquitt...."

Ain't got one thing to do with right or wrong...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:06 PM

INHO, this thread should not become "Beardedbruce vs Bobert" or "Bobert vs Beardedbruce".

Rove is the individual who is-for now-center stage in this national 'gate'.

And it seems to me that the actions that have occurred and may have occurred [and continue to occur??] are of the utmost importance to USA national security: using tainted information to promote a preemptive war; outing a covert agent whose husband wrote an editorial that spoke against the war; passing around a top secret memo; possible lying to the Grand Jury, and possible conspiracy to cover-up wrong doing.

Even if we [Mudcatters] can't "all get along", could we please try hard to stay on-topic in this thread?

And if you guys must carry on your personal dispute about who said what when about racism or whatever else that doesn't specifically refer to Rove and his buddies, perhaps it would be best if you do so by PMing each other.


This is just a suggestion of course....


Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Azizi
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:13 PM

I meant to say IMHO [In my humble opinion].

Sorry about that mistake. I haven't a clue what "INHO" means.

Maybe it means- "I'm not humble, opinions?"

[I was going to say that I wrote "INHO" on purpose to add a bit of comic relief to a thread that was becoming quite emotional tense..But I won't lie. I really didn't do it on purpose.]

But then again....



Positive vibrations,


Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:13 PM

Azizi,

As I stated before being personnaly attacked by Bobert, IF he commited a crime, he should be tried and IF found guilty punished. That is what I have said all along. The question becomes, what are the FACTS of the case, NOT what each side wants to prove. I am waiting for factual points to support what seem to be accusations based on the FACT that some do not like Rove. Hardly enough for me to lynch someone on. Unlike Bobert, who never met a personal attack against a conservative he didn't like, regardless of the facts of the matter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:37 PM

Hey, I've never said that Karl Rove should be fired fir this particular situation but have made no bonez 'bout the fact that I think America would be a lot better off without this little Napoleonic pit bull weizel in such a position to keep Americans divided... He's a one trick pony and the only game he wants to play is dirty friggin' tricks and keepin' American's at each others throats...

I resent this!!!

And I resent thast my hard earned tax dollars go to payin' his salary...

And I resent bb callin' me a liar 'er a racist...

And I resent bb tryin' yet again to divert attention away from the real subject here: Karl Rove's outin' out Valerie Plume...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:48 PM

It looks mighty close to a fact that it was Rove who first revealed Valerie Plame's occupation to the press.

SInce this was classified information, Rove is in violation of the National Security acts relating to classified data, revealing of to hostile forces.

Including the press, the liberal establishment and al Qaeda, all of whom are hostile towards him for different reasons.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:50 PM

Bobert,

You ARE a liar.

I called you a bigot, not a racist. Try learning to read.

The subject is the FACTS of the matter, not the trial in Uber-mensch Bobert's so-called mind.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 10:59 PM

Amos,


"Rove is in violation of the National Security acts relating to classified data, "


If this is true, he should be tried. HOWEVER, the act in question talks about a 5 year time limit, and I understand that she was NOT covert in the last 8 years. Thus, the law was not broken. If the FACTS are otherwise, I am willing to listen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:06 PM

The classification of the information about her identity was current in the memo that Colin Powell carried on Air Force 1 -- it was a current memo and the information relating ot her was tagged SECRET. The fact that she was or was not currently active, covert or over, has no bearing on the fact that the information identifying her was currently flagged as classified information. Divulging information under that class is a violation.



A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 28 Jul 05 - 11:12 PM

Okay, BB, like why am I a bigot????

And, just fir the record, ever heer of transferance? That's where folks with pathoplogical issues pick out someone else and try to pin their own problems on someone else...

You need some serious counselin', my friend, not me...

And I'm speakng as a former social worker who worked in "Adult Services" for many years in Richmond, Va. working with folks who I would pick up from Central State Hospital in Petersburg, Va, the state mental hospital, and get situated back into society...

You are a a psyhopath as far as I can see...

Yeah, you can continue to try to intimidate me but guess what??? I've dealt with murderers, rapist, arsonist. petty thieves, drug addict and just plain ol' messed up people so don't even think you can mess over me, pal... I done worked in the jail house as a GED teacher. I done worked at a half way house in the baddest part of Richmond... If you think yer gonna put no scare into me you is seriously delussioned...

I ain't no liar... I ain't no bigot... and I sho nuff ain't no racist...

And if you keep insinuatin' that I am, I will consider your transgressions to be not only pathological but grounds for defense... And when I mean defense, when dealin' with pathological folks, I mean just what I said...

And I know exactly what that entails... No brag, just fact...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: LadyJean
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 01:31 AM

From Move On.org
Karl Rove, the voice of treason.

Something I read about him in Newsweek seems to suggest that Turdblossom and George W. are well,,, a couple. Which would explain a whole lot.
Even if it isn't true, make sure you spread the story. Karl's been slandering people most of his life. It's high time he got a bit of his own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Alix graa parot
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:12 AM

bobert beardbruce big bozos
peck rove to none


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:29 AM

Geez - someone posted about getting this thread back on track.
Good suggestion. I do take exception to the comment of "keeping Americans at each other throats". Someone is hanging out in the wrong 'hood.

I travel fairly extensively and in the last several years have been semi-astounded at the rapport exhibited in airports, malls and even supermarkets. I think I have heard "excuse me", "you go ahead" and "let me help you with that" more in the past several years than in the past 20. I attributed some to the pulling together after 9/11 when we were made more aware of our vulnerability. AND, I think the fact we have a more average citizen in the White House, like him or not, as opposed to a polished politician has a small effect, perhaps not recognized by many.

Having been involved in probing a persons Psyche, I would find it impossible to determine a persons' mental stability based on a few posts made on any web page, be it an off-topic blues message board or one of the more professional mental health sites. The WWW is both a wonderful and a dismal source of information. Unless it is a substantiated source, i.e., Universities and Encycloypedias, take it with the proverbial grain of salt.

Remember Newsweek and their "Koran gate"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:47 AM

The "she wasn't covert" excuse is straight from the Republicanthugradioechochamberrepeatedbymindlessandroids machine. Here is the response by 11 non-partisan former CIA officers:

"These comments reveal an astonishing ignorance of the intelligence community and the role of cover. The fact is that there are thousands of U.S. intelligence officers who "work at a desk" in the Washington, D.C. area every day who are undercover. Some have official cover, and some have non-official cover. Both classes of cover must and should be protected."

full statement here

In fact, those with non-official cover are in great danger when they travel overseas because they cannot claim diplomatic immunity. They can (and have been) grabbed off the streets and executed.

I bet many of the people spouting this "she wasn't covert" thing sport Support The Troops ribbons on their bumpers.

Mindless idiots.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:48 AM

oops, sorry that was me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: TIA
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 09:49 AM

and I keep losing my cookie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 10:31 AM

I am becoming aware of my inability to discerning who the "mindless idiots" really are. These are simply opinions based on the limited information available to all and does not denote one's ability to
be any more well informed than the next person.

Moveon.org, Buzzflash, etc., should no more be quoted as nonbiased sources amymore than National Review and Shaun Hannity, particularly Hannity.

Name calling is usually the result of not having a better idea or solution to a situation.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 12:10 PM

I appreciate your efforts to be reasonable, Guest G, but this struck me: "I attributed some to the pulling together after 9/11 when we were made more aware of our vulnerability. AND, I think the fact we have a more average citizen in the White House, like him or not, as opposed to a polished politician has a small effect, perhaps not recognized by many."

I dated a German for a number of years and do you know that that is precisely what he said of Hitler? He said that before Hitler, one's bosses were elitest and would not have thought of fraternizing with their men. After Hitler came on, the bosses would come into the bars, sit down with the men, buy an occasional round.

Frankly, I don't want "a more average citizen in the White House". I want someone who is well read and who has a solid grasp of world affairs (and simple geography!) and insight into the interplay of themes, national interests, historical pressures and actions. I want someone who doesn't rely on others to do his/her homework for him/her but surrounds him or herself with bright advisors who have that same understanding. I want someone who has some concept of cause and effect and the many anomolies that are not easily tracked. I want someone who is 'moral'- and by that I do NOT refer to sexual immaturities but to qualities like fairness, concern and assistance for those who need help, compassion and understanding. I want someone in the White House who has no tolerance for thuggery.

I could go on and list what I do NOT want in a President but I fear that it would describe the current resident too clearly for some.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 12:32 PM

Well said, Ebbie.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:13 PM

Bobert,

"And, just fir the record, ever heer of transferance? That's where folks with pathoplogical issues pick out someone else and try to pin their own problems on someone else..."

So that is what yopu have been doing here the last few years?




"You need some serious counselin', my friend, not me..."

I have made no threats to others for disagreeing with my viewpoint- YOU have. If that means I need counseling, sobeit.




"And I'm speakng as a former social worker who worked in "Adult Services" for many years in Richmond, Va. working with folks who I would pick up from Central State Hospital in Petersburg, Va, the state mental hospital, and get situated back into society..."

And I am speaking as a human being, a former AISSR, COMSEC custodian and FSO. So what?




"You are a a psyhopath as far as I can see... "

Than you are blind as well as a liar.




"Yeah, you can continue to try to intimidate me but guess what??? I've dealt with murderers, rapist, arsonist. petty thieves, drug addict and just plain ol' messed up people so don't even think you can mess over me, pal... I done worked in the jail house as a GED teacher. I done worked at a half way house in the baddest part of Richmond... If you think yer gonna put no scare into me you is seriously delussioned..."

If you find the fact that someone might disagree with you, and point out when you tell lies about them intimidating, YOU have a lot more problems than any "scare" I might give you.




"I ain't no liar... I ain't no bigot... and I sho nuff ain't no racist..."

Someone who intentionally tells falsehoods, even after they have been informed the truth,IS a liar. You certainly qualify.

Someone who decides the facts based on their own goals and viewpoint, rather than what happened is a bigot. You qualify there, as well.

I HAVE NOT CALLED YOU A RACIST- and your repitition of this lie is another example of your perverted atitude towards civilized discussion.




"And if you keep insinuatin' that I am, I will consider your transgressions to be not only pathological but grounds for defense... And when I mean defense, when dealin' with pathological folks, I mean just what I said..."


Is this another threat, or just an declaration that I do not have the right of free speech in disagreeing with you?




"And I know exactly what that entails... No brag, just fact..."

And what exactly are you threateniong me with now?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 02:19 PM

excuse me. It should have been:

I HAVE NOT CALLED YOU A RACIST- and your repetition of this lie is another example of your perverted atitude towards civilized discussion and inability to see reality when it is shown to you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Kim C
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 03:47 PM

I just remembered why I don't come around here so often anymore.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 04:58 PM

Right, Kim. When a discussion goes totally irrational and turns into a dung-fling, it becomes a waste of time.

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:08 PM

you know, after going thru this thread,you would start to get the idea that the church had made the wilsons out to be saint's,and the great savior of this country.both with the highest honor.as to his crediabilty,he lied to a congressional hearing about how he came to be involved in the first place.
and azizi,you mentioned all the hits you got on gogol,how many are just made up gigo,and how many might have a shadow of truth to em.
seems that is what blogging is about. bullhut logs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: TIA
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:31 PM

I don't think anyone is making the Wilson's out to be saints. But there are those who are coming to their defense against the right-wing hyper-drive smear machine. That machine sure didn't wait for the whole truth to come out before it went after them. And now, countering the spin and lies is to be considered hasty?


Support the Troops!

but

Out the Operatives!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:36 PM

i still would like to know how much wilson is getting paid for all this.[by one side or the other/s,or maybe both/all]


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: TIA
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:38 PM

This explains it all


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jul 05 - 05:44 PM

close but not close


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 09:02 AM

No arguin' with a sick mind, so other than to again repudiate bb's unfounded charges that I am a bigot and a liar, I am going back to ignorin' bb. He is not worth my time...

Yeah, I am with Ebbie... I don't want folks running the country who are just "average folks" tho I don't consider Rove to be an "average folk" in any manner. It's all about *power* to him and has nuthin' to do with common sense policy issues that help anyonbe but the big cororate Bush campaign donor's interests... Might of fact, that is my main complaint regarding this administartion... Everywhere you look you see Boss Hog's hands in policy decisions... It's no wonder the countyr is in such a mess and isn't dealin' with it... Some folks say, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it" but KI would argue that it is *broke* and way to many folks are in denial... Poverty rates have increased every year since Bush came into office, our schools, especially in the cities, are crumbling, our infastructure is being totally ignored and BUsh and his gang of thugs used lies and half truths to get the country into a useless war...

Like where exactly is the good news?

Oh, and yeah, back to the subject of the thread... Runnin' this crime ring is a power hungry fat man: Karl Rove...

Yeah, someone pointed out the Newsweek incident whetre Rove engineered a frontal assalt on a magazine with charges that the Koran had not been dissed... Yeah, that scared the heck outtta Newsweek and evryone else in thwe media. Yeah, that was the big story... Problem is that, just as lieing about torture at so called detention facilities in Iraq and Cuba, the assalt against Newsweek turned out to be just another homecooked Rove lie...

Can anyone deny that now that evidence is in that the Koran was dissed???

Oh yeah, the Bush apologists will somehow blame the Democrats for that lie... Just like they always do...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: jpk
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 04:30 PM

tired


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 08:41 PM

Then find another thread... Simple... No one has a gun popinted at yer danged head... Go to sleep...

Yeah, yer "tired" post is just part of the overall defense of Rove in tryin' to run out the clock or bore people to sleep...

Hey, you probnably weren't tired when they were tryin' to impeach Slick Willie fir gettin' a little on the side but now that someone could have been killed as a result of a Bush-crook rattin' out a CIA yer tired....

Me too... Tired of the Bush folk dodgin' havin' to pay up in the "personal responsibility" department...

Like when have they ever admitted ot makin' a mistake? Never, that's when. They blame the Democarts... Yeah, guess what! Rovegate is just one of many, many scandals they have tried to keep in the closet... And guess what? The closet ain't big 'nuff fir this administartion to hide in any more... They have outgrown it and looks like someone gonna have to step up and say, "Ahhhhh, yeah, we messed up..."

The number one thing that we keep hearin' from folks in polls after polls is that they no longer trust Bush and his cronies to tell them the truth... The American people ain't half a dumb as Karl Rove owuld like them to be...

Fir y6ou Bush-heads, mark my words, just like I predicted exactly what has come tyo pass in Iraq: Yer man is damaged goods and will go down in history right next to Andrew Johnson as the worst president the country ever had... Mark my words....

Yeah, he can run but he can't hide...

The truth is comin' in fast and furious and it dopn't smell too good...

Biobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 09:32 PM

Yo, Brother BObert!!! Get it SAYYYUDDD!!!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 30 Jul 05 - 09:43 PM

'Bout time someone reminded the Bush-heads that their boy stinks and the further along we get into this second term the worser the stink gonna get... Like how amny scandals do we still have loomin' after Rovegate???? A bunch... You can put a fork in the Shrub... He's done!!!

Yeah, there are folks here who will still defend him... Guess what? They are done... Lie where is Teribus??? Can't show is Bush-head 'round here no more since everything that the anti-invasion folks said would happen has happened....

Bush is history....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Oct 05 - 04:32 PM

Looks like Libby is the one who leaked the name of Valerie Plame.

Libby will probably take the fall for Turdblossom.

I doubt if Libby acted independently. He is, after all, Rove's dog and it was an effort to take the heat off the administration and place the blame for faulty intelligence on the CIA.

From the NY Times:

"At that breakfast meeting, our conversation also turned to Mr. Wilson's wife. My notes contain a phrase inside parentheses: "Wife works at Winpac." Mr. Fitzgerald asked what that meant. Winpac stood for Weapons Intelligence, Non-Proliferation, and Arms Control, the name of a unit within the C.I.A. that, among other things, analyzes the spread of unconventional weapons.

I said I couldn't be certain whether I had known Ms. Plame's identity before this meeting, and I had no clear memory of the context of our conversation that resulted in this notation. But I told the grand jury that I believed that this was the first time I had heard that Mr. Wilson's wife worked for Winpac. In fact, I told the grand jury that when Mr. Libby indicated that Ms. Plame worked for Winpac, I assumed that she worked as an analyst, not as an undercover operative."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: DougR
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 04:31 PM

Well, Bobert, I do have to admit that he is at least half of that.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 09:11 PM

Well, dianavan, what we have here is the "perfect strom" 'cuase both "Scooter' Libby, Cheneey's Chief of Staff and Bush's, Karl Rove, will most likely both be indicted... Or should be!!!!

Both have fessed up to rattin' out Valare Plame to ***two*** different reporters...

Like what is that all about???

Like I said, the Republican Party, in spite of its large jerimandered redisdistrictin' might have misw=places a decimal point here or there in their quest to turn America into their little serfdom...

But, hey, inspite of the the recent revelation, it may be too late???

Being the eternal optomist, I hope and pray not...

No, I don't love the Dems either but these crooks gotta go...

Boberrt


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: number 6
Date: 17 Oct 05 - 10:31 PM

As I posted on the 25th of JUly 2005 .... and I'm posting again


Is Karl Rove a big fat liar ...

yes .....

and there is nothing we can do about it.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 18 Oct 05 - 05:33 PM

Ahh. But where Karl is eventually going, with all that baby-fat, think of the lovely sizzle. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 11:59 AM


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 01:23 PM

Hello Bobert,

Here I am, I tend not to respond to your posts as experience has shown me, that what beardedbruce has said in this thread about you is absolutely correct. That being the case, as I see it, there is no point in attempting to discuss anything with you, your mind is made up irrespective of whatever fact is presented to support a view counter to your own dearly held beliefs.

Byeeeeeee

T.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 03:27 PM

Pots and kettles, Teribus?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 05:54 PM

Agreed Teribus!

However, after reading this thread, it is somewhat obvious to me that no one ever told you not to wake a sleeping baby. If you do, you are likely to end up with more crying and whining with no good reason(s).


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 06:15 PM

Ah, the sanctimony, the condescending certainty, the smugness of the inflexibly right!

How sad the real world does not operate on such frigid certainties.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 06:35 PM

Amos, I thought that was one your gripes, that the world is operating on what you describe as "frigid certainties." Sorry that you have to put up with it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 06:52 PM

I'm surprised to see you here, GUEST A... I laid out some purdy convincing evidence on Katrina on the Bush thread and you choze not to respond to it... Instead, you seem to be hiding behind Teribus's, which he ain't, readings of beardedbruce...

I think if one were to look into BB's opinion of me these days, since the Getaway, that I would guess that his opinion of me has changed just as mine of him has...

But, no matter, the real Teribus would not have taken the chicken's way out so I'll go on reciord of sayin' that this current one is an imposter...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Teribus
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 09:59 PM

Amos - 03 Nov 05 - 06:15 PM

"Ah, the sanctimony, the condescending certainty, the smugness of the inflexibly right!"

You mean something akin to a certain mudcatter's views on a certain President?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 10:17 PM

Hey, Teribus, first of all you ain't Teribus... You stole the name but hey, whover you are, you are a fake... Okay, maybe you think that you are fooling folks but you ain't foolin' nobody... I know the real Teribus and you ain't him... You are phonier than a 4 dollar bill...

I think you are the same person who is impersonatin' Martin Gibson.... Maybe not, but you are a fake!!!!! Complete and total fake!!!! The real teribus has more intellect in his finger nail clippings than you have in yer entire body...

Give it up...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 10:20 PM

Ahhhh, let me put it another way... If Teribus had a frontal Labotomy, he's still be 100 times smarter than you....

Now ya got it??? Get a real handle and leave poor Teribus alone... He doesn't deserve such a light wieght using' his handle....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 03 Nov 05 - 11:02 PM

No Teribus-wannbe, I do not. I make my points on specific offenses and report others' views on them. I am open to correction, but you'll have to forgive me if I take information in support of the current Administration with a grain of salt, given their reputation for inventing stuff and falsifying the record to serve their unspoken purposes. I slam them on instances on issues, not just generalized negative nabobbery backed by drooling sarcasm.

That's what I meant.

All clear now?


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 03:39 AM

"I make my points on specific offenses and report others' views on them. I am open to correction, but you'll have to forgive me if I take information in support of the current Administration with a grain of salt, given their reputation for inventing stuff and falsifying the record to serve their unspoken purposes."

Kinda proves the point regarding -

"Ah, the sanctimony, the condescending certainty, the smugness of the inflexibly right!"

You are only open to correction from sources that you approve of, as they are unlikely to support any contention at odds with your view. If that isn't smug I don't know what is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 07:45 AM

The real Teribus would NEVER use the slang word "kinda".

You are not Teribus.

Terimini?

Teriyugo?

Teriscooter?

Terirollerskate?

Maybe.

But not Teribus.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 07:45 AM

Teribus, real or imposter, projects my feelings better than I do.

Bobert, I elected not to respond to your Katrina comments as you don't have a clue!
Pouring water down a rathole is not my idea of spending ones' time in a wise and productive manner. You coninue to beleive what makes you feel content and smug. Teribus nailed it! And his last 4 lines in his last post exemplify his point.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 07:59 AM

No, GUEST A, it is you that doesn'have a clue... Just as Amos has just stated I provided you with credible sources... I even named them... What I used to make my case isn't like from right wing blog... Ahhhh, it's like rea; tetimony in a Congressional hearin'... It's like DHS's "Nation Response Plan"... All I did was lay it all out there fir you in a very factual basis...

What yopu didn't like is that when presented with facts you found yer position difficult to defend so you go back to yer usual: attackin' the messenger...

You'll do fine with this new Teribus wantabee cause he seems to be cut from the same cloth as you...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 08:38 AM

T,

Yer twisting again. I don't care if I approve of a source or not; what I care about is that the information be reliable. Old Guy, for example, has a point of view I most heartily disagree with on some things, but he almost had me changing my mind about Salman Pak, and I said so as well.

So screw you and yer alphabet friends.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 08:45 AM

"Attack the mesenger."?????????? Now you are accusing me of utilizing your tactics.

"are you on drugs'
"frontal lobotomy", etc.

"factual basis"???? You are delusional! And if I am not careful here, I will cause myself to slip down to your level. Must grab rope as extended by the few straight thinkers here!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 08:55 AM

By the way, Amos, it would appear from your last post that 'Teribus' struck a nerve. It is refreshing to see that you are not a robot.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Amos
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 10:40 AM

Hell, A, I usually try to stay civil even with those who don't see things my way. But, yes, the underhanded needles of some specialists occasionally gets a rise out of me. It just ain't the best way to conduct civilized discourse.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Teribus
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 01:49 PM

GUEST,TIA - 04 Nov 05 - 07:45 AM

The real Teribus would NEVER use the slang word "kinda".

That's why I put it in.

T


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 07:59 PM

In yer dreams, Teribus Wantabee...

You don't even know who Teribus is, much less about his sharp intellect... Wrong positions on the issues but sharp......

Might of fact you are such a bad imposter, think I'll just call you "Terrible"... There, that's yer new handle...

Get a friggin' brain that matchs the real deal and we'll reconsider yer application... Until then, you are "terrible"...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 08:08 PM

Such a way with words!

However, "T",real or imagined, makes more sense than some others I could mention, recent poster included.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 08:51 PM

Like I said, you know nuthin' of the real Teribus... 04 Nov 05-8:08 post enetered as "Exbibit A"...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: number 6
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 08:51 PM

Karl Rove is a Big Fat Liar.

And there is nothin' we can do about it.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 10:05 PM

Oh, horrors, sIx...

Say it ain't so...

Yeah, the boy sho nuff a porker and sho nuff don't have much use fir the truth...

But what would Bush do without him???

(Ahhh, thin Argentina here, Bobert...)

What's that mean???

(Just think about it...)

Hey?!?!?!?!?!?....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: number 6
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 10:17 PM

I have my fears Bobert, I have my fears,

'Ol Bush will go to whatever extremes ..
.. to protect that fat one.

Those flames in the streets of Mar Del Plata are not as hot as
as the inspiration demonstrated by the crowds listening to Hugo Chavez.

But as I said, 'Ol Bush will go to whatever extremes'

(just think about it)

I have my fears, and there is nothing that can be done about it

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Karl Rove
Date: 04 Nov 05 - 11:18 PM

Kick a man when he's down, whydontcha.

I am not fat.

Love and Peece,

K Rove


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,ghost of stan Lauel
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 12:12 AM

You are fat. You are fatter than Ollie. You just hide it well.

luv and peace, and remember folks to keep the on laughing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 07:47 AM

Bobert, Bobert, Bobert! I don't care if that was Teribus or the Pillsbury Doughboy! I was agreeing the words of the poster, no matter who he may be. Now, is that too dificult for you?

Is there any wonder I decided to ignore any further commmentary of Katrina.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: freda underhill
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 08:14 AM

meanwhile....

Bush Orders Staff to Attend Ethics Briefings
White House Counsel to Give 'Refresher' Course; By Jim VandeHei
Washington Post Saturday, November 5, 2005

President Bush has ordered White House staff to attend mandatory briefings beginning next week on ethical behavior and the handling of classified material after the indictment last week of a senior administration official in the CIA leak probe. According to a memo sent to aides yesterday, Bush expects all White House staff to adhere to the "spirit as well as the letter" of all ethics laws and rules. As a result, "the White House counsel's office will conduct a series of presentations next week that will provide refresher lectures on general ethics rules, including the rules of governing the protection of classified information," according to the memo, a copy of which was provided to The Washington Post by a senior White House aide.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 10:17 AM

Bush promoting ethics is like a fish promoting NASCAR.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:37 PM

Obfuscators in the White House? Gee, what a surprise.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Peace
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 02:37 PM

Seems to be lots of that going around lately.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 05 Nov 05 - 05:36 PM

No, GUEST A, the reason you are ignorin' the questions I posed to you about the failin's of the Bush administration is because you don't have any reasonable rebuttal and I think that you realize that I ain't the lightweight you were hopin' I was...

As fir the Teribus thing... Obviously you weren't around here when the real Teribus roamed Mudville... Well, there is not one progressive, not one anti-war poster here who if they were here during those days doesn't have quite a bit of respect fir Teribus... If he were a basketball palyer that owner of the team would probably retire his jersey...

Now fir someone to come in and use Teribus's handle is somewhat disrespectfull to the hard, hard work that Teribus did in defending the Bush admibnistrations run up to war... Seems all this imposter has in common with the real one is being against the anti-war folks here in Mudville... Problem is that The Imposter has nuthin' but insults and anme callin' in his arsenal... Kinda like you...

When the going gets tough both of you tend to fall back to the same worn out attack, attacak, attack defense... Yeah, you may see that on occasion I do a little confrontin' my ownself but, hey, if you were to research the body of my contributions here, you'd find that I just happen to bring a lot of substance, both here and above the line...

But you, firgive me, GUEST A and Teribus, seem to be one trick ponies...

I don't say this to be hurtfull but it would be nice if you two couyld bring in a little substance to the discussions...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 12:34 AM

Someone has suggested that since Cheney is so big on torture, maybe they should apply a little torture to Libby and Rove. We would probably be amazed at what they would reveal.

Hey, Donuel, thats a cartoon!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:06 AM

Busted: Joe Wilson Lied! -Senate Intelligence Committee

The mainstream media is paying little attention to a bombshell in the just-released Senate Intelligence Report on pre-Iraq-war intelligence. The Senate Intelligence Committee basically found that Joe Wilson lied in the course of his histrionics about his trip to Niger, Africa - searching for yellowcake uranium sales to Iraq.

A complete copy of the Senate Intelligence Report, titled "Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community's Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq" issued on July 7, 2004, is provided here.


Busted: Joe Wilson Lied! -Senate Intelligence Committee

As reported in the July 10, 2004, Washington Post:

- - - - - - -

Wilson last year launched a public firestorm with his accusations that the administration had manipulated intelligence to build a case for war. He has said that his trip to Niger should have laid to rest any notion that Iraq sought uranium there and has said his findings were ignored by the White House.

Wilson's assertions -- both about what he found in Niger and what the Bush administration did with the information -- were undermined yesterday in a bipartisan Senate intelligence committee report.

The panel found that Wilson's report, rather than debunking intelligence about purported uranium sales to Iraq, as he has said, bolstered the case for most intelligence analysts. And contrary to Wilson's assertions and even the government's previous statements, the CIA did not tell the White House it had qualms about the reliability of the Africa intelligence that made its way into 16 fateful words in President Bush's January 2003 State of the Union address.

Yesterday's report said that whether Iraq sought to buy lightly enriched "yellowcake" uranium from Niger is one of the few bits of prewar intelligence that remains an open question. Much of the rest of the intelligence suggesting a buildup of weapons of mass destruction was unfounded, the report said.

The report turns a harsh spotlight on what Wilson has said about his role in gathering prewar intelligence, most pointedly by asserting that his wife, CIA employee Valerie Plame, recommended him.

- - - - - - -


- - - - - - -

The report may bolster the rationale that administration officials provided the information not to intentionally expose an undercover CIA employee, but to call into question Wilson's bona fides as an investigator into trafficking of weapons of mass destruction. To charge anyone with a crime, prosecutors need evidence that exposure of a covert officer was intentional.

The report states that a CIA official told the Senate committee that Plame "offered up" Wilson's name for the Niger trip, then on Feb. 12, 2002, sent a memo to a deputy chief in the CIA's Directorate of Operations saying her husband "has good relations with both the PM [prime minister] and the former Minister of Mines (not to mention lots of French contacts), both of whom could possibly shed light on this sort of activity." The next day, the operations official cabled an overseas officer seeking concurrence with the idea of sending Wilson, the report said.

Wilson has asserted that his wife was not involved in the decision to send him to Niger.

"Valerie had nothing to do with the matter," Wilson wrote in a memoir published this year. "She definitely had not proposed that I make the trip."

Wilson stood by his assertion in an interview yesterday, saying Plame was not the person who made the decision to send him. Of her memo, he said: "I don't see it as a recommendation to send me."

The report said Plame told committee staffers that she relayed the CIA's request to her husband, saying, "there's this crazy report" about a purported deal for Niger to sell uranium to Iraq. The committee found Wilson had made an earlier trip to Niger in 1999 for the CIA, also at his wife's suggestion.

The report also said Wilson provided misleading information to The Washington Post last June. He said then that he concluded the Niger intelligence was based on documents that had clearly been forged because "the dates were wrong and the names were wrong."

"Committee staff asked how the former ambassador could have come to the conclusion that the 'dates were wrong and the names were wrong' when he had never seen the CIA reports and had no knowledge of what names and dates were in the reports," the Senate panel said. Wilson told the panel he may have been confused and may have "misspoken" to reporters. The documents -- purported sales agreements between Niger and Iraq -- were not in U.S. hands until eight months after Wilson made his trip to Niger.

Wilson's reports to the CIA added to the evidence that Iraq may have tried to buy uranium in Niger, although officials at the State Department remained highly skeptical, the report said.

Wilson said that a former prime minister of Niger, Ibrahim Assane Mayaki, was unaware of any sales contract with Iraq, but said that in June 1999 a businessman approached him, insisting that he meet with an Iraqi delegation to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between Niger and Iraq -- which Mayaki interpreted to mean they wanted to discuss yellowcake sales. A report CIA officials drafted after debriefing Wilson said that "although the meeting took place, Mayaki let the matter drop due to UN sanctions on Iraq."

According to the former Niger mining minister, Wilson told his CIA contacts, Iraq tried to buy 400 tons of uranium in 1998.

Still, it was the CIA that bore the brunt of the criticism of the Niger intelligence. The panel found that the CIA has not fully investigated possible efforts by Iraq to buy uranium in Niger to this day, citing reports from a foreign service and the U.S. Navy about uranium from Niger destined for Iraq and stored in a warehouse in Benin.

The agency did not examine forged documents that have been widely cited as a reason to dismiss the purported effort by Iraq until months after it obtained them. The panel said it still has "not published an assessment to clarify or correct its position on whether or not Iraq was trying to purchase uranium from Africa."

- - - - - - -

So - Wilson benefitted from a little nepotism. His wife got him an all-expenses-paid little excursion to Niger. And, to make it better, he got a chance to throw mud at the Bush Administration - which was clearly not liked by Mr. Wilson and Ms. Plame from the get-go. As the article makes clear, Ms. Plame had pre-judged the uranium sales story before she even sent her hubby - she pre-judged it as "this crazy report."

In this context, if a "Senior Administration Official" let it be known that Wilson jetted off to Africa to sip sweet tea because his wife got him the gig ... they were right to do so. The fact that Wilson's wife got him the gig - and the fact that Wilson's wife pre-judged the whole purpose of the trip as a "crazy report" - make it crystal clear that Wilson's trip had little value (to put it mildly).

Indeed, as the Senate Intelligence Committee's report made clear, Wilson's trip was so lame that it had the unintended consequence (I'm sure much to Wilson's and Plame's horror) of bolstering the Adminsitration's argument that Iraq had sought uranium in Africa.

http://www.command-post.org/oped/2_archives/013490.html


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 08:33 AM

As was stated elsewhere, Wilson has yet to be "outed".
Mr. Wilson, can you say "Big House"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:10 AM

"He was rather open about his wife working at the CIA,"



Posted: November 5, 2005
1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Art Moore
© 2005 WorldNetDaily.com


Valerie Plame appeared in Vanity Fair magazine with her husband Joseph Wilson in January 2004
A retired Army general says the man at the center of the CIA leak controversy, Ambassador Joseph C. Wilson, revealed his wife Valerie Plame's employment with the agency in a casual conversation more than a year before she allegedly was "outed" by the White House through a columnist.

Maj. Gen. Paul Vallely told WorldNetDaily that Wilson mentioned Plame's status as a CIA employee over the course of at least three, possibly five, conversations in 2002 in the Fox News Channel's "green room" in Washington, D.C., as they waited to appear on air as analysts.

Vallely and Wilson both were contracted by Fox News to discuss the war on terror as the U.S. faced off with Iraq in the run-up to the spring 2003 invasion.

Vallely says, according to his recollection, Wilson mentioned his wife's job in the spring of 2002 – more than a year before Robert Novak's July 14, 2003, column identified her, citing senior administration officials, as "an Agency operative on weapons of mass destruction."

"He was rather open about his wife working at the CIA," said Vallely, who retired in 1991 as the Army's deputy commanding general in the Pacific.

Vallely made his claim in an interview Thursday night on the ABC radio network's John Batchelor show.

Vallely told WND that, in his opinion, it became clear over the course of several conversations that Wilson had his own agenda, as the ambassador's analysis of the war and its surrounding politics strayed from reality.

"He was a total self promoter," Vallely said. "I don't know if it was out of insecurity, to make him feel important, but he's created so much turmoil, he needs to be investigated and put under oath."

The only indictment in Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald's two-year investigation came one week ago when Vice President Dick Cheney's chief of staff, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, was charged with one count of obstruction of justice, two counts of making false statements and two counts of perjury in the case. He could face up to 30 years in prison and $1.25 million in fines if convicted on all five counts.

Vallely said, citing CIA colleagues, that in addition to his conversations with Wilson, the ambassador was proud to introduce Plame at cocktail parties and other social events around Washington as his CIA wife.

"That was pretty common knowledge," he said. "She's been out there on the Washington scene many years."

If Plame were a covert agent at the time, Vallely said, "he would not have paraded her around as he did."

"This whole thing has become the biggest non-story I know," he concluded, "and all created by Joe Wilson."

Fitzgerald has been investigating whether Plame's identity was leaked by the White House as retaliation against Wilson for his assertion that the Bush administration made false claims about Iraq's attempt to buy nuclear material in Africa.

Wilson traveled to Niger in February 2002 on a CIA-sponsored trip to check out the allegations about Iraq and wrote up his findings in a July 6, 2003, New York Times opinion piece titled "What I Didn't Find in Africa."

White House defenders insist the aides simply were setting the record straight about Wilson, seeking to put his credibility in context by pointing out it was Plame who helped him get the CIA consulting job. Wilson denied his wife's role initially, but a bipartisan report by the Senate panel documented it.

Wilson declared in the column that his trip revealed the Iraq-Niger connection was dubious, but his oral report to the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence actually corroborated the controversial "16 words" in President Bush's 2003 State of the Union address: "The British government has learned that Saddam Hussein recently sought significant quantities of uranium from Africa."

Libby's charges pertained only to the investigation itself, not the 1982 act that made it illegal to blow a covert U.S. agent's cover.

The Washington attorney who spearheaded the drafting of that law told WND earlier this year that Plame's circumstances don't meet the statute's criteria.

Victoria Toensing – who worked on the legislation in her role as chief counsel for the chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence – said Plame most likely was not a covert agent when White House aides mentioned her to reporters.

The federal code says the agent must have operated outside the United States within the previous five years. But Plame gave up her role as a covert agent nine years before the Rove interview, according to New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof.

Kristof said the CIA brought Plame back to Washington in 1994 because the agency suspected her undercover security had been compromised by turncoat spy Aldrich Ames.

Wilson's own book, "The Politics of Truth," states he and Plame both returned from overseas assignments in June 1997 and never again were stationed overseas – placing them in Washington at least six years before the 2003 "outing."

Moreover, asserted Toensing, for the law to be violated, White House aides would have had to intentionally reveal Plame's identity with the knowledge that they were disclosing a covert agent.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=47242


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:31 AM

THE PLAME GAME Analyst says Wilson 'outed' wife in 2002

November 5, 2005

Vallely said, citing CIA colleagues, that in addition to his conversations with Wilson, the ambassador was proud to introduce Plame at cocktail parties and other social events around Washington as his CIA wife.

    "That was pretty common knowledge," he said Friday. "She's been out there on the Washington scene many years."

    If Plame were a covert agent at the time, Vallely said, "he would not have paraded her around as he did."

In fact it looks like Wilson even admitted she wasn't a covert agent years ago:

    Victoria Toensing – who worked on the legislation in her role as chief counsel for the chairman of the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence – said Plame most likely was not a covert agent when White House aides mentioned her to reporters.

    The federal code says the agent must have operated outside the United States within the previous five years. But Plame gave up her role as a covert agent nine years before the Rove interview, according to New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof.

    Kristof said the CIA brought Plame back to Washington in 1994 because the agency suspected her undercover security had been compromised by turncoat spy Aldrich Ames.

    Wilson's own book, "The Politics of Truth," states he and Plame both returned from overseas assignments in June 1997 and never again were stationed overseas – placing them in Washington at least six years before the 2003 "outing."

    Moreover, asserted Toensing, for the law to be violated, White House aides would have had to intentionally reveal Plame's identity with the knowledge that they were disclosing a covert agent.

Looks like Joe Wilson is the guy who needs to be investigated.

UPDATE :

Turns out Lt. General Tom McInerney, USAF, who also a FOX News analyst, will join Paul Vallely in claiming Joe Wilson consistently mentioned the fact his wife worked at the CIA. Note that the primary legal concern was the supposed leaking of the fact Valeries worked at the CIA. Her role in getting Joe to Niger twice has not been the focus of investigations - yet.

UPDATE:

The list of people who knew about Plame working for the CIA is getting quite large! From the Kerry Campaign to most of NBC News to Victor Davis Hanson….

Amazing.

END UPDATE

Gen Paul Vallely has come forward and claimed Joe Wilson was talking about his CIA wife in the Fox News Green Room - a charge Wilson is denying with threat of legal action.

    "This is slanderous," Wilson wrote. "I never appeared on tv before at least July 2002 and only saw him maybe twice in the green room at FOX.

Well, when was Wilson possibly in the Green Room with Vallely? In reverse chronological order:

January 10th, 2003 (Vallely, Wilson). Wilson was on John Gibson's show this day. Which is why Gibson has similar recollections to General Vallely. Vallely was on Cavuto which airs right before Gibson's show.

November 18, 2002 (Vallely, Wilson). Vallely was scheduled for 1:10, Wilson was to be on after 3:00 PM.

October 1, 2003 (Vallely, Wilson). Wilson was on Fox and Friends in the morning, Vallely on Cavuto. Depending on when Vallely came in to tape his section they could have met up.

September 12, 2002 - they were on the same show at 3:00 PM.

August 20, 2002 (Vallely, Wilson). Wilson was on Greta and Vallely on Cavuto. Depending on when/if things were taped the could have run into each other.

Well, four good opportunities to run into Wilson in the Green Room. BTW, all the guests listed in the same days as these make for potential witnesses. Not to mention all the times Wilson was at Fox and other networks.

MAJOR UPDATE:

I cannot believe how many people are ready to say Joe Wilson himself outed his wife. Now, through a 3rd party recollection, Victor Davis Hanson also recalled Joe Wilson talking about his CIA wife in a Green Room. What a putz he and Fitzgerald both are.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:37 AM

Let me see... No "crime" is committed, but the grand jury is lied to. If this is a Democrat, he gets off: If this is a Republican, he has to be crucified...


Sounds like the American Justice system to me...









Let he who is without sin cast the first stone...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 09:38 AM

(please note dripping sarcasm...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Crowbar
Date: 10 Nov 05 - 11:01 AM

Fact: Libby is accused of lying to a grand jury.

Fact: Purjury is a crime.

Question: Is he innocent or guilty?

Question: Should a jury decide?

Statement: Examination of the facts will lead to the truth.

Crowbar


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:46 AM

Breaking News! Karl Rove's Garage
Posted by Greg Sheffield on October 17, 2005 - 14:27.

Associated Press writer Darlene Superville wrote a serious expose on Karl Rove's garage. The headline: "Karl Rove's Garage Proves to Be Typical"

Superville wondered if Rove can "organize his own garage? Can the master of Bush's political planning figure out where to put the ladders, paint cans and cardboard boxes?"

Below are the earth shattering revelations uncovered by Superville:

    There was no car in the garage. And the stuff left behind turned out not to be much different from what gathers dust inside most American garages.

    The inventory, seen from outside:

    *Some cardboard file boxes stacked one on top of the other, labeled "Box 6," "Box 4" and what appears to be "Box 7." No sign of boxes 1, 2, 3 and 5.

    *What appear to be paint cans stacked alongside a folded, folding chair.

    *A rather large wood crate marked "FRAGILE" and painted with arrows indicating which way is up. On top of the crate, two coolers.

    *A tall aluminum ladder.

    *A snow shovel leaned in front of another cardboard box.

    *Wicker baskets inside of wicker baskets on top of a shelf running the length of the rear wall. Transparent plastic storage bins crammed with indiscernible stuff. Another cardboard box.

    *In one corner, the rear wheel of a bicycle sticks out, along with what appears to be a helmet.

    *Another ladder, this one green, leaning sideways.

http://newsbusters.org/trackback/2316


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 08:23 PM

Hope you all are havin' fun cause the fun will end when this case goes to court and you find that alot of the cut-n-paste crap is just that: crap, just like all the now debunked reasons that Bush and Co. have given us in gettin' the US bogged down in Iraq-mire...

Sorry, you all seemed to be havin' a good ol time...

Just remember what Jesus told Matthew, "Thetre's nuthin' hidden that one day won't be found and no secrets kept that won't one day be public knowledge..."

Sorry, now back to the Bushite circle-the-wagons-jerk...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 11:06 PM

Bobert:

Why don't you try something positive and upbeat for a change like

"I am a totaly negative, anal rententive retarded asshole but I will work on it"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 11 Nov 05 - 11:21 PM

Glad to see yer goina work on it, GUEST... You need lots of work... I'd suggest Dr. Phil....

As fir me, I'm "Mister Positive n' Upbeat".... Don't believe me??? Check out "Page News and Courier" (Luray, Va.), Vol 138, No. 35" which came out on October 1st 'er 2nd of this year... Piccure of me on the front page talkin' about the old hotel I bought in town and am going to restore.... Nice article... Worth the few minutes to google it up...

But (WARNIN'), if you think I'm a negative person, better strap on yer seat belts before reading the article...

Just negatibe about stupid policies an', unfortuneatly, Bush has 'um runnin' over....

That don't make me nagative... I wakwe up every day thinkin' how I can improve my life and that of my neighbors....

Tell ya what, GUEST.... Get a real name an' I'll give you the names of a couple farmers in this holler where I live that will be glad to tell ya personally what kinda person I am... and it negative....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 10:37 PM

Bobert:

I can't find the Luray thing. Maybe you have a good side. I see some humorous posts here and there.

I would like to say it is my opinion that all this moaning and groaning about the war and blaming it on Bush is self destructive, non constructive and counter productive.

Things are not going to change for the better unless poeple want them to and work toward it.

It sounds like people want America to loose. Otherwise why would they keep saying we are loosing. Makes me think they are imbeded Al quaeda poisoning public opinion. Believing you can win is 75% of winning. Believing you will loose is 90% of loosing.

The same thing goes for that hotel you bought. A big difficult task but doable. I did a big old 1875 house like that. Rehabbed it, kept the "Country Victorian" atmosphere, Rented rooms and made a sucess out of the disaster that the previous owner made out of it.

Positive attitudes accomplish things. Negative attitudes don't.

I don't think it is necessary to throw pro-Bush rallys. Bush ain't my hero. I don't like everything he does, immigration is one, but by God we have to win this one. Otherwise the attacks will come home when we leave Iraq. And not because of the war because we were under attack before the war. We have taken the battle to the enemy.

France is a warning about what will happen here.

So go ahead and spew on Bush. Then tell me if it makes you feel any better.

And yes, progress is being made in Iraq whether you believe it or not. All you have to do is look for it because it does not get through the news media.

All they want is blood and guts, people dying, things exploding, fires burning, anything horrible. How often do you see something good in the news about anything? Even when you can find something it's something like "pistol packing Granny confronts and shoots intruder"


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 10:54 PM

No, GUEST, don't make me feel one bit better to get on Bush about his policies but it is his policies I have problems with... Lotta folks think that I hate Bush... No, I can't say I'm capable of hatin' anyone... Maybe I am but I ain't met anyone yet that I can say I hate... Yeah, I hate some of their actions... That's were Bush come into play... Actually, I don't think Bush has a clue since he is overly dependent on other folks to make policy.... I feel sorry fir him...

But, hey, I come here a couple times a day and vent against what I see as dumb policy... If I went about my business like Bush I would fail... In my real life I understand that I need the entire community behind me and that's why I choose to do my rantin' here.... Over the last 20 years I have organized more communtiy stuff with Repubs than Dems 'er Greens so I know how to live with Repubs... Hey, yeah, they know I'm a Green but guess waht??? If it comes down to gettin' somethjin' done in the communtiy, I'z the guy they want in charge...

Sorry you couldn't find the article... It was good 'un an' the piccure weren't too hatefull considerin' that I had just finished playing two long sets at the Luray Farmer's Market...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: pdq
Date: 12 Nov 05 - 10:57 PM

Great post, guest.

Please take a name and stick around for a while. Mudcat needs more people with common sense.

BTW, I did a compete restoration of an 1888 Victorian, although it was quite small as such buildings go. I helped dig the foundation footing, helped dig a basement, stripped the roof (12 layers in one place!), etc. Every piece of molding had to be re-created with special blades, cut to match pieces of the original molding.

So congratulations on your accomplishment. However, one is enough. Maybe a "frame-off restoration" of a can. Hope so.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 01:04 AM

I ain't defending Bush but he did not create the intelligence mess we have. He inherited it.

He did not want a department of Homeland Security but the Dems wanted it so he gave in. Then the dems wanted FEMA to be in DHS. Bush did not want the but he gave in to the Dems again.

Now every shortcoming is his fault like he created it. Damned if he does and damned if he don't.

The only thing I see he did wrong with FEMA is appoint a totally imcompetent asshole to run it.

If you watch a certain National Geographic Channel documentary on Katrina, they reveal that Nagin, Blanco and Bush met on his plane in N.O. on Friday of the great disaster week. Bush asked the Gov if she wanted the Feds to take over the National Guard. She said no or not yet or something to the effect that the fed could not take it over.

"Normally, the Guard is under the control of the state governor, but the Feds can take over�if the governor asks them to. Nagin suggested that Lt. Gen. Russel Honore, the Pentagon's on-scene commander, be put in charge. According to Senator Vitter, Bush turned to Governor Blanco and said, "Well, what do you think of that, Governor?" Blanco told Bush, "I'd rather talk to you about that privately." To which Nagin responded, "Well, why don't you do that now?"
The meeting broke up. Bush and Blanco disappeared to talk. More than a week later, there was still no agreement. Blanco didn't want to give up her authority, and Bush didn't press."


Now where is Bush's screw up in that affair? Maybe he should have knocked her in the head or arrested her for stupidity and taken over right then.

Also I know from people that live on NO that the entire local government down there is corrupt. You have to make payoffs to open and operate any kind of business there. I heard a tale of one couple that wanted to open a Curves there and refused to make the payoffs. They lost their ass cause they never were able to open.

Now I hear that the levees that broke did not go as deep as specified. It is suspected that the contractor was allowed make payoffs and shortcut the specs.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Nov 05 - 09:53 PM

Tell ya what, Old Guy, I'll be satrtin' anew Katrina threa in a couple days and I think you will be surprised about a lot of stuff that ain;t been reported...

It's too much fir this evenin' and I'll be outta town fir the next cvouple day so look fir it maybe Wedneday night...

On another thread I challnged GUEST A with a little of it and GUEST A went GUEST A-WOL... Couldn't come up with no answers but you can bet this one is gonna lead right to Bush's feet...

Bear wid me, Old Guy... And no cut'n run rebuttals.... So be prepared to do yer own homework... I have...

Okay???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Teribus
Date: 14 Nov 05 - 09:56 AM

Bobert - 13 Nov 05 - 09:53 PM

"Tell ya what, Old Guy, I'll be satrtin' anew Katrina threa in a couple days .... So be prepared to do yer own homework... I have..."

Well that would be a welcome departure from Bobert's Standard Operating Procedure - I wouldn't hold your breath OG, after the summation of all Boberts research, West-Ginny Slide Rule calcs and what he's heard as bein' the Word on the Street, has been blasted to bits by the more rational and reasoning minds on this forum, he will revert to type and commence on personal attack and incomprehensible ranting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 07:30 AM

I will be refreshing to see what the Ol Wes Ginny slide rule says about the corruption in NO. The Government there is a total clusterfuck and the hurricane literally blew them away.

I will cut and paste pertinant text from other sites as I see fit and I invite others to do the same. If he URL is there one can go to the site and determine if it is an evil corporate site or a truthful Moveon.org or George Soros supported site. Scott ritter is one of Boberts truth tellers so Al jazzera is not off limits in the quest for the truth.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 08:18 PM

Ahhhh, fir the record, I have never been to move.on or any other leftie site... I get my stuff from the W=Post, the NY-Times and the TV... Yeah, I'll Google now and then but what you get from me is what I have gleaned from those source... Just gotta stay purdy much off the front pages... There's were the goodies are hidden...

And, not to worry, T, I done up a bunch of homework on Katrina and I think it's gonn have you scratchin' yer head an' shuffelin' fir a rebuttal... Lookin' forward to it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 08:47 PM

Bobert just can't get it.

Bobert, you don't want the truth, you can't understand the truth!

I did not go AWOL - I simply realized what my Grandmother once told me - Never argue with an idiot, someone may walk by and not be able to tell the difference.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Nov 05 - 09:21 PM

Yeah, my graanie tolt me the same thing... That's why I been ignorin' yer ignorant idiot self lately but guess what??? When I ask these folks the same questions I asked you they will clearly see that I have put together one danged difficult siutation for the Bush administartion to fihgt its way out of...

That's why you went AWOL... Ain't got one danged thing in the friggin' world about me other than I yer butt chackmated and so now I get this crap that you don't wnata debatean idiot???? Haha...

We'll see who is the "idiot"...

You better start doing yer research... I have done mine and have over 100 pages of stuff I've printed up on Katrina... And guess what??? Not one is froma leftie blog... Not one... All is purdy much public information and can be found thru Google...

The probkle with you, GUEST A, isi that either you are falt lazy 'er you can't find some right winged blog that has been financed by some right winged rich guy to defend your posotions...

Like I said, I have the done the hard work and I'm gonna loay it out either tomorrow night or Thusday night and then it wil "Time top Rumble"... Maybe you oughtta spend some time trying to find some right winged blog to defend you 'cause when I bring my stuff, yer gonna need help 'er yer going under...

No brag, just fact...

You know the basics so better spend a little less time grandsatnding and little more time doing what I have done: hit the books, pal...

Like I said, no brag, just fact...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 06:58 AM

No change from here.

By the way, the NY Times and the Washington Post are not middle of the road - your previous post with regard to your sources explained a lot about you. TV? you have denigrate it a lot and yet you stil regard it as one of your three sources for information.

Even more enlightenment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 07:40 AM

I ain't talkin' their editorial pages, you knothead. I'm talking their news departments. And I think you'll find that if you throw in the LA Times, which you also probably think is liberal what you have is the 3 newspapers that have a great deal of influence over the the other newspapers accross the country in setting the bar as to how and what national and international news gets reported....

So not to fear, A, this story is all highly verifiable... Maybe you should be going back to my actual case and start doing a little homework of yer own...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,A
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 08:11 AM

I am not questioning if the "story is verifiable", particulary since I have not seen it yet so don't get so defensive.
I might, however, be skeptical with regard to it being factual.

The three papers you mention do have a great deal of influence when it comes to "liberal" thinking people. Personally, I read both sides and try to draw a somewhat fair conclusion. You might attempt to do the same thing sometime.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Desdemona
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 11:48 AM

I dunno if this was mentioned anywhere above, but my favourite nickname for Mr Rove is "Tubby McTreason"!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 12:07 PM

Desdemona, is this a recent news flash? I had not heard of the treason charge.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 02:06 PM

"Has anyone bothered to isolate the facts around this slander? Or are we just beating drums and dancing around the campfire here?"


a quote, from Amos


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 03:13 PM

Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 16 Nov 05 - 03:26 PM

oh, if only lies left semen stains.

the Bush Administrations lies are coming around to bite them in the ass.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 11:20 PM

Hmmmmmm???

A 5th time to testify to the Grand Jury???

The noose is tightenin'....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: number 6
Date: 26 Apr 06 - 11:22 PM

Yes he is a great big fat liar ... and there is nothing you can do about it. :)

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Raggytash
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 05:53 AM

don't know 300


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 27 Apr 06 - 07:43 AM

The above post by Raggytash is the most truthful one of this thread.

July 20th, 05 "Bush is gone"?????????????


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 13 May 06 - 09:49 PM

Hmmmm. Interesting development with unknown consequence. Since Rove has been moved back into the political arm of the administration in preparation for the upcoming elections this fall, it is hard to believe that dubya wouldn't have a plan ready to go for a day like this. However, W has not yet shown any signs of seeing beyond the tip of his nose so who knows?

Karl Rove Indicted

    "During the course of that meeting, Fitzgerald served attorneys for former Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove with an indictment charging the embattled White House official with perjury and lying to investigators related to his role in the CIA leak case, and instructed one of the attorneys to tell Rove that he has 24 hours to get his affairs in order, high level sources with direct knowledge of the meeting said Saturday morning.
    "Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, did not return a call for comment. Sources said Fitzgerald was in Washington, DC, Friday and met with Luskin for about 15 hours to go over the charges against Rove, which include perjury and lying to investigators about how and when Rove discovered that Valerie Plame Wilson was a covert CIA operative and whether he shared that information with reporters, sources with direct knowledge of the meeting said.

    "It was still unknown Saturday whether Fitzgerald charged Rove with a more serious obstruction of justice charge. Sources close to the case said Friday that it appeared very likely that an obstruction charge against Rove would be included with charges of perjury and lying to investigators."



Whither Now


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 May 06 - 09:59 PM

I am so shocked!

But I'll get over it if he's sentenced for 20 years or so of hard labor, in some Eastern European country without central heating.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 13 May 06 - 10:50 PM

Is this really true?

Somebody pinch me... I think I'm dreaming.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 13 May 06 - 11:42 PM

Karl Rove will probably be indicted but Bush will pardon him.

Seems that Cheney may in a little hot water himself. Investigators are still looking at his contempt for Wilson and the possibility that it was Cheney that outed Valerie Plame.

We all know, of course, that they will be pardoned.

They will never do jail time because they have to teach their proteges how to engage in dirty tricks. For every name that goes under, a new name emerges.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 14 May 06 - 10:07 AM

The reports in my home paper today indicate that the prosecutor has filed a copy of Wilson's op-ed piece with Cheney's hand-written comments on it, circles and obscene doddles. Do we have a "smoking gun?"

It seems likely to me that Mr. Libby turned the newspaper article over to the prosecutor as part of his defence that he was only "following orders." But you'll probably read about that tomorrow.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 14 May 06 - 12:53 PM

Ebbie, both you and Truthout deserve a Pulizer for scooping both the NY Times AND the Washington Post.

Blogs ARE better, eh? Well, at least consistent.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 06 - 02:08 PM

Ebbie, both you and Truthout deserve a Pulizer for scooping both the NY Times AND the Washington Post.

It's not so difficult to do, really (regardless of whether or not this one proves to be true).


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 14 May 06 - 06:32 PM

Good Grief!!!!!!!!

First of all, the NY Times and the Post have more WH insiders than Ebbie's source has total personnel.

Plus, notice I left the 't' out the word Pulitzer' - 't' standing for "truth" in this situation.

Dam'n, don't you think by now the NYT and Post would have done something? No one ever said that Blogs have to print the truth.
And, they rarely do - it is all about entertainment.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 14 May 06 - 09:58 PM

First of all, G, Truthout is NOT a Blog.

It may or may not be true- anyone want to bet?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:11 PM

Oh, geeze....

I haven't heard that the big fat lair is going to be indicted but, hey, he is a big fat liar...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:37 PM

Excerpt from Ebbies "scoop" link above:

"Saturday 13 May 2006

    Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald spent more than half a day Friday at the offices of Patton Boggs, the law firm representing Karl Rove.

    During the course of that meeting, Fitzgerald served attorneys for former Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove with an indictment charging the embattled White House official with perjury and lying to investigators related to his role in the CIA leak case, and instructed one of the attorneys to tell Rove that he has 24 business hours to get his affairs in order, high level sources with direct knowledge of the meeting said Saturday morning.

    Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, did not return a call for comment. Sources said Fitzgerald was in Washington, DC, Friday and met with Luskin for about 15 hours to go over the charges against Rove, which include perjury and lying to investigators about how and when Rove discovered that Valerie Plame Wilson was a covert CIA operative and whether he shared that information with reporters, sources with direct knowledge of the meeting said.

    It was still unknown Saturday whether Fitzgerald charged Rove with a more serious obstruction of justice charge. Sources close to the case said Friday that it appeared very likely that an obstruction charge against Rove would be included with charges of perjury and lying to investigators...."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:37 PM

Dam'n, don't you think by now the NYT and Post would have done something?

No, I don't. They only publish what they consider to be in their interests to publish. The fact of their not publishing something is in no way an indication that it didn't happen or isn't true. They don't cover important stuff all the time.

I guess we'll know, eventually, whether or not this story is true or false. But if it's true, I'm going to enjoy it when you come back here to admit you were wrong. You will do that, right?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: heric
Date: 14 May 06 - 11:57 PM

most peculiar.
Here is what Carl Rove's attorney told a reporter for the National Review:

Q: Did Patrick Fitzgerald come to Patton Boggs for 15 hours Friday?
A: No.
Q: Did he come to Patton Boggs for any period of time Friday?
A: No.
Q: Did he meet anywhere else with Karl Rove's representatives?
Q: No.
Q: Did he communicate in any way with Karl Rove's representatives?
A: No.
Q: Did he inform Rove or Rove's representatives that Rove had been indicted?
A: No.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: heric
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:00 AM

sorry, that's from http://www.qando.net/details.aspx?Entry=3870


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: heric
Date: 15 May 06 - 12:05 AM

Not even Donuel's going with the story. Truthout's going to get some jokes about its name, looks like.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:59 AM

SOmebody's going to be very pissed at their "high level sources" if this turns out to have been a mistake, a joke, or an intentional deception.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:00 PM

" Within the last week, Karl Rove told President Bush and Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten, as well as a few other high level administration officials, that he will be indicted in the CIA leak case and will immediately resign his White House job when the special counsel publicly announces the charges against him, according to sources.

" Details of Rove's discussions with the president and Bolten have spread through the corridors of the White House where low-level staffers and senior officials were trying to determine how the indictment would impact an administration that has been mired in a number of high-profile political scandals for nearly a year, said a half-dozen White House aides and two senior officials who work at the Republican National Committee.

"Speaking on condition of anonymity, sources confirmed Rove's indictment is imminent. These individuals requested anonymity saying they were not authorized to speak publicly about Rove's situation. A spokesman in the White House press office said they would not comment on "wildly speculative rumors."

" Rove's attorney, Robert Luskin, did not return a call for comment Friday."

I agree- if it isn't true there will be some red faces


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:00 PM

Apparently, Chris Matthews has also been making some predictions about this as well, although he has been a bit less definite in his predictions than Truthout. It's possible that Fitzgerald is trying to squeeze more out of Rove, and this is a part of that effort.

Time will tell, I guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 May 06 - 01:46 PM

Bloggers on the right are going for blood. Leaving that alone, take a look at what Howard Kurtz wrote about Jason Leopold in the Washington Post in 2005(yes, March, 2005).


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 May 06 - 03:06 PM

Ebbie, if Truthout is not a Blog, then what is it?

And you should also get the various Dictionaries corrected.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 May 06 - 06:00 PM


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 15 May 06 - 06:02 PM

and more than that:

"At a Michigan Trial Lawyers' Association dinner Saturday night in Dearborn, Mich., the group's vice president Robert Raitt announced — according to the Detroit Free Press — that President Bush's longtime strategist had just been indicted. The announcement reportedly prompted a standing ovation by the crowd of 700, which included Sen. Hillary Clinton."
msnbc


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 15 May 06 - 08:11 PM

Karl's indictment day will come.

Cheney's scribbles on the New York Times Op Ed story by Wilson were show this evening on CNN. The scribbles were not particularly obscene, as I've been hoping, but did imply that Wilson's wife may have been responsible for sending him out on a "junket" to Niger. Still looks like a smoking gun to me. It's not clear at this point who turned over the original New York Times with the scribbles, whether it was Cheney's office staff or Libby or some other angel.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:20 PM

Another announcement - the Earth IS flat!

The Dems will cheer at anything, hoping that it is true, as they have no plan of their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:43 PM

http://www.truthout.com/index.htm

Read that and decide for yourself.

G, you gettin' nervous? Your heroes falling into the drek? Fear not. They love it there.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 15 May 06 - 09:47 PM

I notice the article mentions the word "Democrat" a couple of times, but I don't know why they or you, G, are assuming the people in attendance at that dinner were Democrats. There were probably quite a few Republicans there as well and even people with no party affiliation. That just looks like an attempt to smear Democrats on the part of MSNBC.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Teribus
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:57 AM

Now according to the Truthout source the indictment was served on Rove and he was supposedly given 24 hours to put his affairs in order last Saturday, which means if what Truthout reported was correct Rove would have been arrested on Monday.

The mnsbc link that GUEST,heric supplied and quoted in part, in the post of 15 May 06 - 06:02 PM, goes on to state:

"Strange then that a relaxed-looking Rove – not indicted, not out on bail, and wearing a business suit, not orange prison garb -- was in person at the right-wing think tank, American Enterprise Institute Monday morning."

From the WSJ Online (3 hours ago):

"But there is no evidence the Bush adviser was indicted last week. His lawyer says it is plain wrong. Mr. Fitzgerald hasn't commented, and he is expected in coming weeks to make a decision about whether to charge Mr. Rove for perjury or related wrongdoing in the matter."

Very true observations from the same article:

"Politics, and the arguments it stirs, lends itself to the Internet. Bloggers have the latitude to issue one-sided analysis that makes leaps to connect the dots in ways that more-guarded news organizations couldn't."

"...bloggers can focus on one story like the leak probe, scrutinizing each new tidbit -- whether innuendo or fact -- and speculating about how it fits in with information already known."

"Mainstream news organizations say bloggers can say something is going to happen every day for months and then claim to be ahead of the pack when it does -- or forget about it when it doesn't."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: heric
Date: 16 May 06 - 12:59 AM

(When I posted that I wasn't even thinking about Repub v. Democrat. I was only thinking about new media v. corporate media. Truthout obviously has a following, and yet they gave that Leopold guy a loaded pen and set him loose, entirely unsupervised.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 16 May 06 - 02:46 PM

Not getting nervous, I am very confident - keeping in mind I am not totally satisfied with the way everything is being conducted. Your comment is simply wishful thinking on your part.

Any further information on the source "not being a ....Blog" and how are you doing with corrections that need to be made in the Dictionaries?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:25 PM

Leopold says Rove's mouthpieces are liars.

href="http://www.opednews.com/articles/genera_rob_kall_060515_jason_leopold_update.htm">"opednews.com"


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:29 PM

I'm sorry, G- I'm too stupid. I don't understand your comment about the dictionaries.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 16 May 06 - 03:32 PM

By the way CarolC, I can't tell if you are extremely biased or just paranoid. Go back to see what that meeting was for, the one where "everyone stood up and appaluded".


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:22 PM

It was for trial lawyers, Guest,G. Are you saying that all trial lawyers are Democrats?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:53 PM

Very familiar with Michigan and Michigan is a major Dem state and, it is a known fact that the majority of trial lawyers are Dems..


Ebbie, nice try - the Dictionaries definition of 'blog' fits your source to a 'T'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 06 - 04:56 PM

Could you back up your speculation with some documentation and numbers please, Guest,G?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 06 - 06:07 PM

5 entries found for blog.
Main Entry:   blog
Part of Speech:   noun
Definition:   an online diary; a personal chronological log of thoughts published on a Web page; also called Weblog, Web log
Example:   Typically updated daily, blogs often reflect the personality of the author.
Etymology:   shortened form of Weblog
Usage:   blog, blogged, blogging v, blogger n

Not by this definition

Source: Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English, Preview Edition (v 0.9.6)
Copyright © 2003-2005 Lexico Publishing Group, LLC

Main Entry:   blog
Definition:   to author an online diary or chronology of thoughts
Etymology:   19992004; abbr. of Weblog
Usage:   blogged, blogging; blogger, n

Source: Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English, Preview Edition (v 0.9.6)
Copyright © 2003-2005 Lexico Publishing Group, LLC

Nor by this one

Main Entry:   weblog
Part of Speech:   noun
Definition:   a personal Web site that provides updated headlines and news articles of other sites that are of interest to the user, also may include journal entries, commentaries and recommendations compiled by the user; also written web log, Weblog; also called blog
Usage:   computing

Source: Webster's New Millennium™ Dictionary of English, Preview Edition (v 0.9.6)
Copyright © 2003-2005 Lexico Publishing Group, LLC

"...a personal Web site that provides updated headlines and news articles of other sites that are of interest to the user"
Closer in meanig to this but still no cigar. Truthout gathers information from all over.

blog

n : a shared on-line journal where people can post diary entries about their personal experiences and hobbies [syn: web log]

Not by this definition

By the way, G, are you trying hard to be unpleasant or does it come naturally to you? If truth and information have value to you, I would think your reactions would reflect it.

Incidentally, you say you are 'confident'- do you mean that you have confidence in the president? And in the short term future of this country? Please tell me on what you base your confidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 16 May 06 - 08:36 PM

Odd that the "Democratic" state of Michigan had at least 12 years of Republican Governor Engler.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:24 PM

Odd that the state had 80% of the past 40+ years with Repub Governors.............???? But we were not talking about that position, were we?

Ebbie, no, I am a very pleasant and easy going person. However, I will not accept your interpretations of the above. You keep them, no matter how erroneous they are to others. Just take some time and go back over them, particulary Webster's which states "commentaries".


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Teribus
Date: 16 May 06 - 10:27 PM

Question: Has Karl Rove been indicted?

Simple Question requires only a YES or NO answer.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 16 May 06 - 11:11 PM

Amazing how we see ourselves, isn't it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 16 May 06 - 11:15 PM

Still, I think if you want us to take seriously your assertions about how many people at the dinner were Democrats as opposed to Republicans, Guest,G, you'll need to provide some numbers.

I happen to know some trial lawyers who are Republicans, and I also know some Michiganders who are Republicans, and I'm sure they wouldn't appreciate being called "Democrats" by you.

Or, you could consider the possibility that there are Republicans who are upset enough with Karl Rove to want to see him indicted.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 May 06 - 10:22 AM

My son in law is a lawyer, and he is a very conservative Republican. I await the day he wakes up.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 17 May 06 - 12:35 PM

The next to come in was an attorney,
Who'd returned from an arduous journey,
Who'd returned from an arduous journey
For to join with the jovial crew;
He'd traveled this whole wide world around,
He'd searched through cities, he'd searched through towns.
There was no justice to be found!

When Jones' Ale wasnew, me boys,
When Jones' Ale was new!

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,G
Date: 17 May 06 - 03:07 PM

Ebbie said "amazing how we see ourselves, isn't it?"

Yes it is, Ebbie, and that is why you are and CarolC are a constant source of amazement/amusement to me and, I am sure, to some others.

With that comment, and some of the replies I have seen, I am now convinced that anymore commentary in this place would simply be a continued waste of my time. Without a home office, I would not be doing this. Even though I have many work days that are less than 8 hours in length, filling in the remaining time by coming here no longer makes sense.

So, I bid everyone a farewell. (and I know as others have said, 'don't let the door hit me in the a** on the way out'.)

Be sure that I will not allow that to happen.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 06 - 03:29 PM

LOL

But you make a good point, Guest,G. If you can't substantiate your claims in a discussion of this sort, you are probably better off not participating, because people will ask you back your claims up with some documentation. That's how we know you're not just blowing hot air.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,heric
Date: 17 May 06 - 03:42 PM

"Among those who declined to join the standing ovation was Michigan Court of Appeals Chief Judge William Whitbeck, one of the few Republican officeholders in attendance"

Detroit Free Press

(Not that I see any significance to this cavil.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 17 May 06 - 03:58 PM

I wonder how Brian Dickerson determined that the audience was "heavily Democratic". Show of hands, maybe?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 07:56 PM

Again....

Q: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???

A: Evidently not or else he would have at least been indicted the same as Libby.

Drop it.....case closed.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: number 6
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:02 PM

"Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???"

yup

and as I've been saying all along ... "there is nothing we can do about it" .... and unfortunately, today is prove of that.

sIx


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:07 PM

Geeze, Hub, lissen here, I got some ocean-front property in Arizona you should think about buying as a retirement spot...Talk about naive platitudes! I swan.

A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:18 PM

Pond scum floats to the top. Karl Rove is in good company.

Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Arne
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:42 PM

SuSu's Hubby:

Again....

Q: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???

A: Evidently not or else he would have at least been indicted the same as Libby.

Actually, he is. He decided to come clean during his grand jury testimony, apparently, but either he's a liar or McClellan and Dubya are liars (well, Dubya is a liar on so many other things, as was McClellan). Dubya said that no one in the maladministration was responsible (and that he'd fire them if they were; something he has not done for Rove), and McClellan said he talked to Libby and Rove an dthey told him they weren't involved with the Plame outing. Rove was initially saying he'd heard of Plame from journalists, but that just wasn't true. In fact, his latest accounts reportedly show that there were at least six people in the maladministration busy smearing Wilson, and some outing Plame.

He may have dodged a bullet with evasive, ambiguous, or incomplete answers when first questioned, but there's no arguing that he a piece of lying scum.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Alba
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 08:48 PM

Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
Well Duh!
When Ole Scooter goes on Trail, Snarl Rove will be called. So he has a bit of time between now and then to rehearse his next collection of distorted truths. (Good chance however, what with his bad memory and all, he will have forgot the details when he is called to testify!)

So he got himself some breathing space but more importantly, Snarl is around for the November deflections, I mean, Elections.
A Guy that spins Lies for a living would be so stupid as to allow himself to be indicted when the White House is nearly on it's knees seeking approval!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:06 PM

"Actually, he is. He decided to come clean during his grand jury testimony, apparently,"


So if that is the case then he didn't lie to begin with or he would be charged with perjury.

You're talking yourselves in so many circles here that I'm starting to get dizzy.

He wasn't indicted either for the outing or for perjury.

Libby wasn't indicted for the outing. Just for perjury. We'll wait for the trial to see if that holds.

Starting to get the picture here, pal?

You guys are starting to believe the fantasies that you have created in your head due to your hatred of this administration.

Liberals (or progressives or whatever you're calling yourselves today) are still losing ground in the elections. Take the election in CA last week as proof.

I mean...if a liberal loses in California then you guys may as well just stop now and start getting ready for 2012. The mid-terms and the next Presidential election are still safe in conservative hands.

Thank God for that.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 09:49 PM

So Hubby Boy, who exactly is indicted in "Sealed vs. Sealed"

JFGI


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:07 PM

Hubby, you are trying to deal with a mentality that is below average, well below average. Their minds have been programmed long ago and true facts will not alter them.

It is okay, however, as their mindset will permit the the better Party to remain in power.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:18 PM

Only better at winning election because, hey, they are in power and therefore can strongarm/extort money from corporations for campaigns and over the last 20 years the candidate who spent the most oney in all federal elections, wins...

The American people are too buzy beating their brains out trying to keep their heads above water to have the luxary of really sorting thru policies so they just go with the soundbites they catch on the TV... And more $$$$ = more soundbites...

I have learned here that the Bush supporter will not discuss policies... They will attack you personally but they will not discuss or debate policy... There is a reason for this... They can't... They either know that the oplicies they support are indefensable of they are tto ignorant of the specifics to engage in anything greater than rereading some bumper sticker position...

And that definately describes Hubby...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:21 PM

Whoever you are nameless one, I'll measure my mentality against yours any day. You name the metric.

TIA on an F'in rampage tonight...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:27 PM

Tia, go to bed, you are hopelessly outclassed.

And bobert, the economy is rocking, more millionaires being created and I put over $50 worth of gasoline in my pickup today and simply said thanks to my debit card as all the people I know are doing.

Speaking of keeping one's head above water, how are your buildings doing and how is the new house you are building coming along.

God, you are a trip!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Condi
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:32 PM

Another Troll in Training. Must be Trolling Summer School.
Amateurs! Can't live with them but you CAN live without them.
Bue Bye Troll.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:32 PM

Outclassed? By one who doesn't have the nads to sign a name? You're a chicken. You're afraid of me little person. Don't worry, I won't hurt anything but your feelings.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Ron Davies
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:35 PM

Hubby--

"The midterms and the 2008 election are still safe..." It might be slightly premature to start crowing just yet. It ain't over til....

Any argument there?

Sorry to burst your balloon.

It would help if you actually thought before posting--also it would be a pleasant change.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:37 PM

"..if a liberal loses in California..."

A liberal came damn close to winning in one of the safest Republican districts in the country. Sleep tight Hubby.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:38 PM

Now, now, Tia - don't get sore. Besides, I have not a clue what a "Tia" is. Most here use false names so "Guest" means every bit aa much as "Tia".

"Tia".....Nope, doesn't mean a thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:42 PM

If you had half a brain, you could find out exactly who I am, and where I live, and what I do. "Guest" don't mean shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:49 PM

TIA is a registered member who has some level of transparency, including perhaps a bio or photo somewhere in Mudville...

You, Guest, on the other hand are a sniper, just like the the nutballs that shot folks from the safety of their car trunk... You have no transparancy at all...

Not only that, your argument, if that's what you ***think*** you are posting are not arguments at all but just attacks from the safety of yer car trunk...

TIA said you are a chicken... Not too sure about that but you certainly are about the most cowardly creep that's been 'round here for a long time...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Rufus
Date: 13 Jun 06 - 10:49 PM

Looks like Bobert's got his tit in the wringer here tryin' ta keep hold of his creditability.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Arne
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:17 AM

Susu's Hubby:

[Arne]: "Actually, he is. He decided to come clean during his grand jury testimony, apparently,"

So if that is the case then he didn't lie to begin with or he would be charged with perjury.

You're talking yourselves in so many circles here that I'm starting to get dizzy.

I'm not the one having problems thinking. If it could be shown he lied to the grand jury, you can bet there'd be indictments. If what he did was give incomplete, evasive, or even arguably false statements to the FBI and/or first grand juries, he might get off the hook. FWIW, Rove's defence of his changed story (according to his lawyers) was that he "forgot" about certain things, and that the Viveca Novak stuff "refreshed" his memory (well, maybe that and the e-mails) and now he wanted to sing a different tune and fess up to outing Plame.
But there's no disagreement from anyone (including Rove's lawyers) that Rove did indeed change his story. They had to plead that he was 'really, really forgetful' and that he didn't snooker the first questioners on purpose. Fat chance of that for a person as meticulous (and as slimy) as Rove is. Apparently Fitzgerald didn't think he could get a conviction "beyond reasonable doubt" on the evidence. But face it, Rove fibbed the first time and only changed his sotry when it became clear that others wer going to dispute his account.

He wasn't indicted either for the outing or for perjury.

The outing requires a number of elements including "intent" that may have been hard to prove. Fitzgerald explained this in his Libby press conference.

Libby wasn't indicted for the outing. Just for perjury. We'll wait for the trial to see if that holds.

See above. FWIW, the White House outed Plame. There's no doubt on that count. That was wrong. Proving the specific crime was committed by a specific person is the harder part.


Starting to get the picture here, pal?

I've had "the picture" from a long time back, buddy. I've read "Bush's Brain", by James Moore, and know just what kind of a slimeball Rove is. You ought to as well. Would open your eyes up a bit about the folks you're defending.

You guys are starting to believe the fantasies that you have created in your head due to your hatred of this administration.

Ummm, not me. Seems that the person that is seeing hallucinations here is you.

Liberals (or progressives or whatever you're calling yourselves today) are still losing ground in the elections. Take the election in CA last week as proof.

Huh?!? You talking Bixby? She came a lot closer than any Democrat has come in a long time in that district.

I mean...if a liberal loses in California then you guys may as well just stop now and start getting ready for 2012.

I thnk you're just confused. Matter of fact, that's almost a certainty. Do you really think that California has no Republicans in office?

The mid-terms and the next Presidential election are still safe in conservative hands.

Thank God for that.

Oh, so God's on your side. My, I'm quaking. I'd just reference Bobby Zimmerman's views on that....

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:43 AM

"FWIW, the White House outed Plame. There's no doubt on that count. That was wrong. Proving the specific crime was committed by a specific person is the harder part."


I say let's appoint Arne as the special prosecutor then since he knows so much. He's quite sure of himself. He's read a book that says Rove is a bad guy.

Please....you're holding on to an invisible rope that's tied around your neck. But since you do like to believe in your self-created fantasies, go ahead and jump from the coffee table and see what happens.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Barry Finn
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 01:12 AM

The news tonight was that Rove will not be indited by the AG. I'm not a bit suprize & I don't belive anyone will ever be. Can anyone say "WHITE WASH IN THE WHITEHOUSE".
Barry


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Arne
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 01:17 AM

Correction:

I guess it was Viveca Novak's conversation with Luskin that "refreshed" Rove's memory of talking to Cooper. See here.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:09 AM

If Rove lied to the Grand Jury, even a little bit, this Prosecutor would have him in chains. bobert, now who is the liar?

And Tia, I don't need to know who you are, where you are and what you do. How would that change things? Or do you think that my knowing those things would allow me to better understand your frustrations?


Rufus, what credibility for bobert? Appears he has lost the bulk of it.

I am still trying to understand why some in this forum can't simply debate rather than attack the poster. The only purpose that serves is for the attacked to lower their presumed value of the attacker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Arne
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:48 AM

Guest:

There's little argument that Rove changed his story considerably (in part after Matt Cooper agreed to talk about his contacts). Rove knew the jig was up, and decided to come clean about hs role in outing Plame. His "excuse"? "Oh, I forgot about that little conversation with Cooper! Silly me, how could I be so forgteful?" And therfe was the matter of that e-mail Rove-Libby (IIRC) e-mail turning up much later. They just mysteriously "found" it.

Keep in mind that Libby did the same thing; their initial approach was to stone-wall, hoping the reporters would (inexplicably) keep their actions secret, but they both changed their tune after Miller and Cooper started talking (and showed that they both had been spreading the news about Plame).

So did Rove "lie" (that is, make a material statement he believed to be false to a grand jury [or FBI agent] under oath)? You have to prove all three elements beyond reasonable doubt to get a perjury conviction, and maybe Fitzgerald thought there wasn't enough there to sustain that. But did Rove lie (that is, make a false statement)? The anser there is undobtedly yes. But that's SOP for this maladministration. Dubya is an obvious liar, and McClellan was lying all the time.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 10:10 AM

Arne, I agree "there is little aguement that Rove changed his story......, I can not any fact that says he did. Well, speculation.

That unfortunate fellow (Leopold?) that wrote several months ago that Rove HAD been indicated was beside himself yesterday on the Art Schultz program on Air America. Mr Schultz flat told him he had the burden of proof. I would not be surprised if Leopold takes his own life after listening to him. I hope not - any form of Politics is not worth it.

While I still think of my self as a Conservation, I find Art Schultz to be basically "fair and balanced". The 'right' should listen to him and the 'left' should try Limbaugh occasionally.

Ignore Randi Rhoades and Shaun Hannity, however. Those two are mind numbing!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:19 PM

Rove is big, in many senses, and he is certainly plump even after his recent weight loss, so I guess those two characteristics are indisputable. And, I submit, he is professionally by necessity a liar, so immersed in finding the right spin that sticking to facts or truth is a virtue completely lost from view in his world.

So....yes. On all three points.


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: 282RA
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:38 PM

>>While I still think of my self as a Conservation,<<

I still think of myself as a liberation so I guess we're both fulla shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 12:54 PM

282RA - I think I meant Reservation...............

And Arne, Many have been asking for months for one source that could prove that Rove lied. Or "made a false statement". A source please, not an opinion or a couple of people who surmise that.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 01:11 PM

The mid-terms and the next Presidential election are still safe in conservative hands.

Keep telling yourself that, Hubster, if it helps you sleep at night. But the truth is, there is absolutely nothing conservative about the Bush administration.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 04:34 PM

Well then CarolC, let's see if this works for you then...


The mid-terms and the next Presidential election are still safe while not in the control of liberals.


In fact, that does have a sweeter ring to it.


Thanks for urging me to change my wording.


For the rest of you out there, do you still believe everything you read on truthout.org?


They must have hired Dan Rather.



Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:30 PM

Well, well, well...

So Rove now says he forgot talkin' with Matt Cooper??? His first story was that he didn't talk with him...

Then "Exhibit A", an email, confirmed that he lied, intentionally or unintentionally...

Oh, I forgot... Hmmmmmm?

"Okay, seein' as you got therse emails, yeah, looks as if I did talk with Matt Cooper afterall... I forgot about that..."

Yeah, he's a big fat liar and the American people have just seen the largest whitewashing since, ahhhhhhh, maybe never....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: CarolC
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 07:31 PM

LOL

The mid-terms and the next Presidential election are still safe while not in the control of liberals.

This statement would be true even if the mid-terms and the next presidential election were in the control of the Democrats


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:23 PM

Still requesting just one, not two just one, verifiable source that show Rove lied. Feelings don't cut it and neither does 'bobert bullshit'. Ran out of gas on this one, didn't you?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Arne
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:46 PM

Guest:

Art Schultz

Ed Schultz.

... the 'left' should try Limbaugh occasionally.

I do, but far less often nowadays. My fiance thinks I'm masochistic. But outside of perverse curiosity, why??? Why listen to a flaming gasbag like him, except to remind oneself what the ravages of too much Oxy-Contin can do?

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:47 PM

Karl Rove's own admissions...

1.) "I dind't talk with Matt Cooper"

(Enter Exhibit A, an email that shows that Rove did talk with Cooper...)

2.) "Oh, I forgot..."

Conclusion: Rove lied... Hey, the amnesia defense doesn't change the ***fact*** that Rove lied... It just changes the "intent" which is the loophole de'jour for liars...

"Geeze, musta have slipped my mind, silly me...."

Hahahahaha... Rove can name every Republican member of the House of Representatives but somehow can't remember setting up a plot to retaliate agianst Joe Wilson... Hey, Rove lives to hurt folks of the opposition... He get's off on this kinda stuff... To him, it is better than sex... Better than anything... The ultimate dirty trick...

"Ahhhhhh, sorry, guess I forgot that conversation wioth Matt Cooper..."

Yeah right, this is a proven lie!!! His own admissions prove he lied... So lets get past this and argue "intent"..

"Well, I din't mean to lie... I just forgot.."

This is what it boils down to...

Heck, Bill Clinton was impeached for less...

How do you spell "w-h-i-t-e-w-a-s-h???

Geeze...

Beam me up, Scotty... The Bushsh*t is gettin' too deep down here...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:54 PM

Why not Arne? I listen to a flaming gasbag like "Ed" Schultz.

And we have yet to hear what Ed does.

I think I denote a bit of envy - if for no other reason that Conservatives rule the talk show circuit. Probably another one there but I don't care to get personal.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Arne
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 08:54 PM

Guest:

And Arne, Many have been asking for months for one source that could prove that Rove lied. Or "made a false statement". A source please, not an opinion or a couple of people who surmise that.

You may not believe the source here, but:
For one, according to the sources close to the investigation, the likelihood that Rove will be charged with perjury centers on the fact that Rove has testified at least three times that he first discovered that Plame worked for the CIA after her name was printed in a July 2003 newspaper report by conservative columnist Robert Novak. Evidence has since surfaced that shows Rove spoke to Novak about Plame prior to Novak's published report in which Novak outed the undercover CIA officer.

Moreover, Rove did not disclose that he had also been a source for a story about Plame written by Time magazine reporter Matthew Cooper, and Rove testified that he was not involved in a campaign to discredit or attack the credibility of Plame's husband, Ambassador Wilson, when at least two dozen witnesses have testified before the grand jury that Rove was in fact instrumental in the smear campaign on Wilson.
But Google "Cooper", "Rove", "Plame" and such. Ask, and you shall receive.

Here's a more conventional source. Keep in mind that none of this is first hand source, but Robert Luskin is Rove's attorney, and should know a bit about what Rove has said.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Arne
Date: 14 Jun 06 - 09:00 PM

Guest:

I think I denote a bit of envy...

Oh, really?   ;-)

Perhaps. You'd be the best judge of that. And I'd say your vocabulary skills perhaps warrant it.

Cheers,


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:01 AM

Remeber, Guest thinks of himself (herself?) as "a conservation" -- unlike "Art Schultz". Of course he (she) denotes envy.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:26 AM

http://www.truthout.org/fitzgeraldcalling.shtml

Karl Rove Indicted on Charges of Perjury, Lying to Investigators
    By Jason Leopold
    t r u t h o u t | Report

    Saturday 13 May 2006

    Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald spent more than half a day Friday at the offices of Patton Boggs, the law firm representing Karl Rove.

    During the course of that meeting, Fitzgerald served attorneys for former Deputy White House Chief of Staff Karl Rove with an indictment charging the embattled White House official with perjury and lying to investigators related to his role in the CIA leak case, and instructed one of the attorneys to tell Rove that he has 24 business hours to get his affairs in order, high level sources with direct knowledge of the meeting said Saturday morning.

    Robert Luskin, Rove's attorney, did not return a call for comment. Sources said Fitzgerald was in Washington, DC, Friday and met with Luskin for about 15 hours to go over the charges against Rove, which include perjury and lying to investigators about how and when Rove discovered that Valerie Plame Wilson was a covert CIA operative and whether he shared that information with reporters, sources with direct knowledge of the meeting said.

    It was still unknown Saturday whether Fitzgerald charged Rove with a more serious obstruction of justice charge. Sources close to the case said Friday that it appeared very likely that an obstruction charge against Rove would be included with charges of perjury and lying to investigators.

    An announcement by Fitzgerald is expected to come this week, sources close to the case said. However, the day and time is unknown. Randall Samborn, a spokesman for the special prosecutor was unavailable for comment. In the past, Samborn said he could not comment on the case.

    The grand jury hearing evidence in the Plame Wilson case met Friday on other matters while Fitzgerald spent the entire day at Luskin's office. The meeting was a closely guarded secret and seems to have taken place without the knowledge of the media.

    As TruthOut reported Friday evening, Rove told President Bush and Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten, as well as a few other high level administration officials, that he will be indicted in the CIA leak case and will immediately resign his White House job when the special counsel publicly announces the charges against him, according to sources.

    Details of Rove's discussions with the president and Bolten have spread through the corridors of the White House, where low-level staffers and senior officials were trying to determine how the indictment would impact an administration that has been mired in a number of high-profile political scandals for nearly a year, said a half-dozen White House aides and two senior officials who work at the Republican National Committee.

    Speaking on condition of anonymity Friday night, sources confirmed Rove's indictment was imminent. These individuals requested anonymity saying they were not authorized to speak publicly about Rove's situation. A spokesman in the White House press office said they would not comment on "wildly speculative rumors."

    Rove's announcement to President Bush and Bolten comes more than a month after he alerted the new chief of staff to a meeting his attorney had with Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald in which Fitzgerald told Luskin that his case against Rove would soon be coming to a close and that he was leaning toward charging Rove with perjury, obstruction of justice and lying to investigators, according to sources close to the investigation.

    A few weeks after he spoke with Fitzgerald, Luskin arranged for Rove to return to the grand jury for a fifth time to testify in hopes of fending off an indictment related to Rove's role in the CIA leak, sources said.

    That meeting was followed almost immediately by an announcement by newly-appointed White House Chief of Staff Joshua Bolten of changes in the responsibilities of some White House officials, including Rove, who was stripped of his policy duties and would no longer hold the title of deputy White House chief of staff.

    The White House said Rove would focus on the November elections and his change in status in no way reflected his fifth appearance before the grand jury or the possibility of an indictment.

    But since Rove testified two weeks ago, the White House has been coordinating a response to what is sure to be the biggest political scandal it has faced thus far: the loss of a key political operative who has been instrumental in shaping White House policy on a wide range of domestic issues.

    Rove testified that he first found out about Plame Wilson from reading a newspaper report in July 2003 and only after the story was published did he share damaging information about her CIA status with other reporters.

    However, evidence has surfaced during the course of the two-year-old investigation that shows Rove spoke with at least two reporters about Plame Wilson prior to the publication of the column.

    The explanation Rove provided to the grand jury - that he was dealing with more urgent White House matters and therefore forgot - has not convinced Fitzgerald that Rove has been entirely truthful in his testimony and resulted in the indictment.

    Some White House staffers said it's the uncertainty of Rove's status in the leak case that has made it difficult for the administration's domestic policy agenda and that the announcement of an indictment and Rove's subsequent resignation, while serious, would allow the administration to move forward on a wide range of issues.

    "We need to start fresh and we can't do that with the uncertainty of Karl's case hanging over our heads," said one White House aide. "There's no doubt that it will be front page news if and when (an indictment) happens. But eventually it will become old news quickly. The key issue here is that the president or Mr. Bolten respond to the charges immediately, make a statement and then move on to other important policy issues and keep that as the main focus going forward."

    Jason Leopold spent two years covering California's electricity crisis as Los Angeles bureau chief of Dow Jones Newswires. Jason has spent the last year cultivating sources close to the CIA leak investigation, and is a regular contributor to t r u t h o u t. He is the author of the new book NEWS JUNKIE. Visit www.newsjunkiebook.com for a preview.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:31 AM

No, once again I think I meant reservation. lol.. and Remember is spelled as I show it.

and Arne, lets' go for the poster vocabulary skills and not the content of the post. I suppose, though, that is all you have left. You and Guest. I find it both amusing and revealing.

So, it is okay with me and it also provides an outlet for your apparent frustrations.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Woody
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:38 AM

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason_Leopold

< font size=1>

In 2002, Salon.com retracted an article by Leopold which had implicated Bush administration official Thomas White in the Enron scandal after it could not verify that the contents of the article were accurate. Afterwards, Leopold and Salon.com's editor engaged in an online debate over the incident with Leopold sticking to his story and the Salon.com editor accusing Leopold of a separate plagiarism incident. [1] [2]


"Off the Record"

Prior to writing News Junkie, Mr. Leopold had written a book entitled Off the Record. The book's release was permanently cancelled, however, following reported legal threats from Steven Maviglio, allegedly one of the subjects of the book. [3] In that book, Mr. Leopold planned to reveal many secrets of his life as a journalist such as a prior drug addiction, bouts with mental illness and suicide attempts, breaking journalistic rules, and lying to employers about a criminal conviction. [4]


Reports of Karl Rove indictments in 2006
        This article documents a current event.
Information may change rapidly as the event progresses.

On May 13th, 2006, Mr. Leopold reported on the progressive website Truthout.org that Karl Rove had been indicted. [5] The story spread quickly throughout the blogosphere[6]. Rove spokesman Mark Corallo issued a flat denial of Leopold's story, calling it "a complete fabrication". [7] On May 15th, Truthout.org Executive Director Marc Ash defended the story, saying they had more than two sources with corroborating information. [8] On May 18th, Ash provided another update, saying that they had found additional sources as well as three "network level" reporters who offered "off-the-record confirmation and moral support". [9] On May 19th, Ash issued a "partial apology" for "getting too far out in front of the news-cycle". He said "we will be taking the wait-and-see approach for the time being."[10] Currently, Truthout.org is the only news outlet reporting Karl Rove has been indicted [11] and there is still no evidence or confirmation that Rove was indicted on May 12th.[12] [13]

On May 26th, Ash reaffirmed that several independent sources existed to back up Leopold's story, and added that "We know that there were two network news crews outside of the building in Washington, DC that houses the offices of Patton Boggs, the law firm that represents Karl Rove. We know that the 4th floor of that building (where the Patton Boggs offices are located) was locked down all day Friday and into Saturday night. We know that we have not received a request for a retraction from anyone. And we know that White House spokesman Tony Snow now refuses to discuss Karl Rove - at all." Ash speculated: "Rove may be turning state's evidence. We suspect that the scope of Fitzgerald's investigation may have broadened - clearly to Cheney - and according to one 'off the record source' to individuals and events not directly related to the outing of CIA operative Valerie Plame. We believe that the indictment which does exist against Karl Rove is sealed. Finally, we believe that there is currently a great deal of activity in the Plame investigation."[14]

On June 3, 2006, Ash released another follow-up on the story, stating that "Right now we have only general indicators as to why an announcement might not be made when an indictment has been returned. And even though these indicators do exist, we need to more clearly understand exactly what is happening in this case before we can report on them." [15]

On June 12, Leopold wrote claiming that the indictment of Rove was in federal case number 06 cr 128, tantalizingly titled "Sealed vs. Sealed." Leopold acknowledges that the grand jury that handed down this sealed decision also meet to discuss other cases, but contends that "legal experts watching the Plame-Wilson investigation have been paying particularly close attention to Sealed vs. Sealed since the Karl Rove indictment story was published. The legal scholars have said that a federal prosecutor can keep an indictment under seal for weeks or months - something that is commonplace in high-profile criminal cases - especially if an investigation, such as the CIA leak probe, is ongoing."[16]

On June 13, Robert Luskin, Rove's lawyer, released a statement that said Fitzgerald "has formally advised us that he does not anticipate seeking charges [against Rove]...[and] we believe that the Special Counsel's decision should put an end to the baseless speculation about Mr. Rove's conduct." [17] [18] Nevertheless, Ash continued to stand by Leopold's story and questioned the accuracy of Luskin's statement, saying "the information he is providing is directly contradicted by the information we have." [19]


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST
Date: 15 Jun 06 - 07:45 AM

http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/2006/06/12/rove2/index.html

In an editor's note accompanying Jason Leopold's latest story on Karl Rove today, Truthout executive director Marc Ash tried to "clearly separate what we know from what we believe." Among the "things" Ash said "we know for certain" is a claim that we've already shown to be wrong: Ash said "Sealed v. Sealed," the title of the criminal case Truthout "believes" to be "directly related" to the Valerie Plame investigation, is "unusual," and that "typically, a sealed federal indictment will be titled, 'U.S. v. Sealed.'" In fact, as we reported earlier today, all sealed criminal cases in the U.S. District Court for the District of Columbia go by the title "Sealed v. Sealed," and there have been at least 31 such cases filed so far this year.

What about some of the other things Ash said he knows for certain? We tried -- not very successfully -- to learn more about one of them today.

Ash said in his editor's note that he knows for certain that "the federal indictment" -- and we'll assume for now that Case No. 1-06-cr-128 actually involves an indictment -- "was returned by the same grand jury that has been hearing matters related to the Fitzgerald/Plame investigation." We sent Ash an e-mail this morning asking him to explain the basis for that claim. "Good question," he responded. "Let me [get] that 'exact' answer and I'll get back to you."

After a few hours passed, we followed up with a more detailed version of the same question: "In your note, you say you 'know for certain" that 1-06-cr-128 was 'returned by the same grand jury that has been hearing matters related to the Fitzgerald/Plame investigation.' But you also say in your note that claims designated as 'what we know' are based on 'official records and official statements.' What 'official record or statement' supports the claim that 1-06-cr-128 represents an 'indictment returned by the same grand jury that has been hearing matters related to the Fitzgerald/Plame investigation'?"

Ash's response to that question: "Yes, I see your point on ... confirming the information about which grand jury returned 1-06-cr-128. I am contacting those who worked on that and WILL get back to you."

A little later, we asked Ash and Leopold whether Truthout's focus on 1-06-cr-128 might be based on some confusion about a similarly numbered matter (1-06-mc-128) that involves Time's challenge to a subpoena in the Scooter Libby case. Leopold said, "No." Ash said, "Not exactly. This information was provided to us by someone who knows these issues -- first-hand. But before I try to explain to you what they explained to me, I want a detailed clarification. Our interest in 1-06-cr-128 is based on a multitude of factors."

We tried one last time to get an answer late today. Leopold responded by saying: "Marc Ash handles all media inquiries. " Ash, in turn, said he is "frankly reluctant to get into [a] parsing contest" and that Truthout is "pretty comfortable with what we've published."

"We're going to let her ride," Ash said. "Thanks for following up."

-- Tim Grieve


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 21 Aug 06 - 01:04 PM

Seems we may still be waiting to find out. A sealed indictment is still out there, and Patrick Fitzgerald is still on the case. Details.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Karl Rove
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:05 AM

Karl Rove IS a big fat liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Karl Rove
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 07:06 AM

Sorry, I mis-typed my last posting.

Karl Rove IS NOT a big fat liar.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 04:19 PM

I believe attorneys refer to Ken Lay's "I didn't know what was going on," and Karl Rove's "I don't remember," as "The 'I'm an Idiot' Defense."

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Aug 06 - 06:16 PM

Jaysus, Rove lies for a living! That's what the BuShites PAY him to do!
He's lied Baby Bush into the White House. He was the moving force behind the Swift Boat Liars, he's mobilized the same filth merchants against Murtha & on & on & on.

No surprises here. Its a "man bites dog" situation: it might be news if Rove DIDN'T lie for once.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: TIA
Date: 21 Feb 07 - 04:01 PM

Don't know about Rove, but it seems that Cheney might be...

" During closing arguments Tuesday in the obstruction of justice and perjury trial of former vice presidential staffer, I. Lewis "Scooter" Libby, Fitzgerald told jurors that "there is a cloud over the vice president. ... a cloud over the White House over what happened," according to a copy of the transcript of Fitzgerald's statements.

    "We didn't put that cloud there," Fitzgerald said. "That cloud's there because the defendant obstructed justice. That cloud is something you just can't pretend isn't there."

    Moreover, Fitzgerald told jurors that Libby, Cheney's former chief of staff, discussed aspects of the investigation with the vice president only when he was told by investigators not to talk about the probe, according to the transcript. Libby is "not supposed to be talking to other people," Fitzgerald said. But "the only person [Libby] told is the vice president. Think about that."

    The suggestion by Fitzgerald that Cheney was complicit in the unmasking of Valerie Plame Wilson's undercover CIA status led to immediate speculation by pundits that the special prosecutor is widening his probe and may have Cheney in his crosshairs."

source


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:41 AM

Answer.. probably but I don't care, I got 300!!!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 04:42 AM

Actually it was 400... even better!

LTS


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: TIA
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 08:57 AM

On the stat sheet, do I get credit for the assist?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:05 PM

Standard #1: Libby says the can't remember = unaccaptable.

Standard #2: Russert says he can't remember = acceptable.

Russert's testimony:

Wells: Do you remember saying to Katie Couric about the indictment, "It's huge… first time in 130 years"?

Tim Russert: No, I don't question that I said it, but I just don't remember.

W: Do you have a bad memory?

T: No.

W: You don't remember going on TV to discuss a historic indictment, where you were personally involved?

T: I do television a lot, a lot of stories and interviews.

Fitzgerald: Which is bigger news, possible indictment or actual indictment?

T: Actual indictment.

F: What do you remember personally from October 28, 2005?

T: Press conference was a network interrupt, which was significant — and then hearing my name, which was jolting. And then Brian Williams talking me about the case and asking me to explain my role, which I did. First time in my life I'd heard my name spoken by a prosecutor.

Wells: Do you recall appearing on the Imus show the morning of the 28th?

T: (meekly) No.

W: Do you recall whether the Today show reported that Libby would be [indicted]?

T: I don't.

W: Do you remember being on the Today show yourself and discussing possible charges against Libby?

T: I don't.

W: Do you deny it?

T: I don't deny it, I just don't deny it.

W: Remember the phrase "first time in a hundred years"?

T: No.

W: You don't remember talking about this on Today show?

T: I appear on Today show several times a week.

W: How many times do you appear on the Today show to discuss possible indictment of chief of staff of VP, in a case where you were involved — first time in your life, right?

T: Yes.

W: So you don't recall

T: No. I do recall watching (Fitzgerald) news conference and discussing it with Brian Williams. (is shown Today show transcript) I don't recall this, sorry.

W: Given your personal involvement… you have no recollection of that day?

T: No, I said I remember news conf and going on air with Brian Williams

W: Don't recall Today show?

T: No.

W: Don't recall Imus show?

T: No.

W: Do you remember saying to Katie Couric about the indictment, "It's huge… first time in 130 years"?

T: No, I don't question that I said it, but I just don't remember.

W: Do you have a bad memory?

T: No.

W: You don't remember going on TV to discuss a historic indictment, where you were personally involved?

T: I do television a lot, a lot of stories and interviews.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:17 PM

The problem is that Tim Russert isn't paid by tax dollars to sit in private sessions to discuss ways yo discredit foes of the administration's policies...

... and that's a rather *****BIG***** difference...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 22 Feb 07 - 09:25 PM

Oh, an' Tim Russert was a big-time Bush cheerleader during the 2000 election and even after Greg Palist had come up with the proof that Bush had indeeed stolen the election never ***bothered*** to say anything about it on the air... It wasn't until the public opinion polls reached 60% saying the Iraq war was not worth fighting that Russert, the ever political journalist, stepped back from Bush...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 02:32 PM

So it is OK if a reporter can't remember what he told a government official but it is not OK for a government official to not remember what he told a reporter?

According to TIA: "I must point out *again* that without a control group, the polling data are meaningless."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 02:41 PM

You're confused Dickey. I know the word "poll" has come up in this thread and the other, but we're not talking about the same thing, so your out-of-context quoting of me is meaningless here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: beardedbruce
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 03:24 PM

context:

"GUEST,TIA - PM
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 02:46 PM

"No Dickey. I'm not saying I don't trust the polls. You are saying that the poll numbers are proof of something else, and I am saying you cannot make that leap without other evidence."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 03:41 PM

Ah, and then BB jumped in. Now we have a smidgeon of context. But still, this relates to this thread how?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 23 Feb 07 - 06:36 PM

Ahhhh, there's abig difference between a two hour meeting exclusively on discreditin' Joe Wilson and a somewhat casual conversation over lunch in which many topics were discusssed...

Libby has lied thru his teeth on this one... Too bad that he has been chosen as the scapegoat to protect the real crooks: Cheney and Rove...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 12:07 AM

What is the difference Bobert? Where and when was this two hour meeting held exclusively on descrediting Joe lawsuit Wilson?

I wish TIA could tell us which polls are meaningless and which are not.

TIA: It is now your obligation to pop up whenever someone cites a poll and tell us wether it is meaningless or not.

Otherwise I will have to assume they are all meaningless now that you are casting doubt on them.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 05:01 AM

Dickey was the first one to mention a poll on this thread. What poll are you talking about, Dickey?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 09:39 AM

Dickey,

Washington Post,Feb 23, 2007, Page A-3, "A Nonpartisan Reputation at Stake" by Carol D. Leonnig

"The trial has given Fitgerald cahnces to show his well-known mastery of facts and his expertise at cross examining.

When Libby's former deputy, John Hanna, testified for the defense on the overqwhelming nature of Libby's job, Hanna said that at the time, Libby was monitoring al-Qaeda plots, the Iraq war and other national security threats.

Hannah, who said he was lucky to get a few minutes to talk to Libby, was supposed to help butress Libby's argument that ha had more important things to remember when he spoke to investigators than conversations with reporters.

With two quick questions, Fitzgerald drew Hanna to the week of July 6, 2003, when, the jurors had been told, Libby met for two hours with Times reporter Judith Miller to complain about Wilson.

   "And so, if you look at what was going on... if he gave    someone an hour or two during that week, it was something that Mr. Libby thought would be important, correct?" [Fitzgerald]

Hannah paused, but had to agree: "With regard to me, yes."

********************************************************************

So, Dickey... Realy hate to interupt yer little Bushite cut 'n paste but there are some inconvient facts here, regardless of the verdict in this case... Think O.J. Simpson here... Crooks don't always get nailed...

Speaklin' on crooks that don't get nailed... Dick Cheney is a crook of the highest order with Karl "Crook" right behind him and with Libby set up to take the fall (or not, think O.J., Part B) there is a good chance that the corrupt Justice Department will not so much as make an attempt tp bring these two repulsive individuals to justice...

And just a side bar pop quiz question:

How much did the government spend to investigate Bill Clinton during his presidency??? And ho much has the government spent in investigating the Bush admininsrations efforts to discredit Joe Wilson???

Give up???






























Clinton $71M

Snitch-gate $1.4M

Hmmmmmmmmm???

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 01:10 PM

Dickey,

You are an idiot. I never said polls are meaningless. I said that YOU cannot interpret a poll a particular way without a further key piece of evidence.

You say the polls only went up a little, therefore the propaganda campaign doesn't exist.

I take may dog out to pee every morning, then the sun comes up. So, I say my dog peeing makes the sun come up.

Should make perfect sense to you Dickey.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 24 Feb 07 - 04:50 PM

Well, while most polls are purdy much meaningless, others are fairly accurate... It all depends on the wording, meathodology and the motives of the pollster/s... I don't trust any poll that is released by a party that has soemthing to gain from the results of the poll... This, of course, includes all politicans and political parties and many so-called objective organizations which have their own axes to grind...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 02:44 AM

"when, the jurors had been told, Libby met for two hours with Times reporter Judith Miller to complain about Wilson."

Told by Whom?

And what Bushite cut and paste was that? Is everybody that disagrees with Bobert a Bushite?

According to Bobert when "It wasn't until the public opinion polls reached 60% saying the Iraq war was not worth fighting that Russert, the ever political journalist, stepped back from Bush"

So could TIA say with certainty tah the polls caused Russert to flip flop? Were those polls accurate? Was Bobert an idiot for citing polls?

Were the polls cited by Bobert "released by a party that has soemthing to gain from the results of the poll"?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 03:01 AM

Does the fact that less people believed that Saddam Hussein was involved with 9/11 during the alleged propaganda campaign than before the alleged campaign mean that the campaign, if there was a campaign, support the assertion that it was brilliant and highly successfull?

It was from Bobert's source of the truth, the Washington Post.
        
Washington Post Poll:
Saddam Hussein and the Sept. 11 Attacks

Saturday, September 6, 2003

The latest Washington Post poll is based on telephone interviews with 1,003 randomly selected adults nationwide, and was conducted Aug. 7-11, 2003. The margin of sampling error for overall results is plus or minus 3 percentage points. Sampling error is only one of many potential sources of error in this or any other public opinion poll. Interviewing was conducted by TNS Intersearch of Horsham, Pa.

*= less than 0.5 percent

How likely is it that Saddam Hussein (INSERT ITEM) ? Would you say that it is very likely, somewhat likely, not very likely, or not at all likely?

                                  --------Likely------- -------Not Likely------   No
                                  NET   Very   Somewhat NET   Not very   At all opin.
a. was personally involved in
   the September 11 terrorist
   attacks                         69    32       37      28      15       12      3
b. has provided assistance to
   Osama bin Laden and his
   terrorist network               82    51       31      14       8         6      4
c. was trying to develop weapons
   of mass destruction             84    62       22      14       9         5      3
d. had already developed weapons
   of mass destruction             78    51       27      19      12         7      3

a. was personally involved in the September 11 terrorist attacks

               --------Likely------- -------Not Likely------   No
               NET   Very   Somewhat NET   Not very   At all opin.
8/11/03         69    32       37      28      15       12      3
2/6/03*         72    34       38      25      16         9      3
10/24/02       71    34       37      25      16         9      4
9/13/01#       78    34       44      12       9         3      9

* 2/6/03 and previous - Time/CNN. "…personally involved in the terrorist attacks
(on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon) on September 11th (2001) -- very likely,
somewhat likely…"
# "How likely is it that Saddam Hussein is personally involved in Tuesday's terrorist
attacks..."
b,c,d. No trend.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 09:15 AM

Well, Dickey, if you had read, rather than skimmed my post that quioted the Wsahigton Post article you wouldn't have to ask brought up the two hour meeting but for review:

Fitzgerald asked the question which was based on information that had been provided to him druing the investigative stage... Had it been a meeting that never occured than Libby's defense team would most certainly have objected and the judge most certainly would have sustained the defenses objection...

The polls I am referring to are really a combination of several non-partisan polling organizations that I pay some attention to including the New York Times, the Washington Post and even the network polls... While these organizations do represent the ruling class on the whole, they are at the very least somewhat in the ball part evn if they tend to scew toward the folks in power so when I see them admitting that 60% of the American people thought that the Iraq invasion was a mistake then in my mind I factor in the "corporate/establishment variable" which means that the number is probably somewhat higher... Learned that in "Statistics 201" which dealt alot with polls...

Now to your 2003 poll??? Well, yeah, at the time the American people were being bombarded with super-patriotism and lies so it's no wonder they held the opinions that they held... Even a year later after the Saddam/al-Qaeda connection had been debunked and the nuke lie had been debunked there were still a lot of people who still believed both of those lies...

Why is that??? Well, Hitler put it very well when he noted that people will believe "the big lie" and so the million$ that went into proaganda were well spent...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 02:48 PM

Yes Bobert, People will believe the big lie if it comes from the Washington Post or the New York Times:

The Washington Post Jan. 29, 2001, "Of all the booby traps left behind by the Clinton administration, none is more dangerous or more urgent than the situation in Iraq. Over the last year, Mr. Clinton and his team quietly avoided dealing with, or calling attention to, the almost complete unraveling of a decade's efforts to isolate the regime of Saddam Hussein and prevent it from rebuilding its weapons of mass destruction. That leaves President Bush to confront a dismaying panorama in the Persian Gulf," including "intelligence photos that show the reconstruction of factories long suspected of producing chemical and biological weapons."

The Source of the Trouble

"Pulitzer Prize winner Judith Miller’s series of exclusives about weapons of mass destruction in Iraqâ€"courtesy of the now-notorious Ahmad Chalabiâ€"helped the New York Times keep up with the competition and the Bush administration bolster the case for war. How the very same talents that caused her to get the story also caused her to get it wrong."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: GUEST,Dickey
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 05:51 PM

Bobert:

"Now to your 2003 poll???" It was a Washington post poll. How about the 2001 poll compared to the 2002 poll?

And is the "nuke lie" you are referencing the one from The Guardian in 2000:

"SADDAM HUSSEIN has ordered his scientists to resume work on a programme aimed at making a nuclear bomb, a defector warned yesterday.

The Iraqi dictator, whose efforts to make atomic weapons were thwarted by United Nations inspectors after the Gulf war in 1991, revived the plans two years ago, the defector said.

Scientists who had previously worked on the weapons programme were made to return to their duties in August 1998, four months before Saddam expelled the inspectors. "


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 25 Feb 07 - 08:15 PM

Well, Dickey, it was ***you***, not me who chose to use a four year old poll to try to defend a current day issue... Heck, if that is your M.O., you could justify slavery if you dug back far 'nuff...

And, just to show that you perghaps are incabable of discussing ***current*** events you drag up some ancient paragraph, which most likely came from the editorial page, to try to prove a point, whatyever yoar particular point is, that is...

Can you bring yourself to the here and now, or at least a little closer than scrounging up 6 and 7 year old obscure editorials??? 'Er is this too much to ask??? BTW, whatever Bushite blog that you are usin' sucks... There are much better ones, I'm sure, than this one that gives you editorials that were printed over a half a decade ago to argue pionts with...

...but I do always enjoy you Bushites bringin' up Bill Clinton as the root of all Bush's problems... Always good fir a chuckle... Not that I liked Clinton, mind you, but it a sorry stae of affairs in the Bushite circle when here yer guy has been in the white house for over half a decade an' all his screw=ups are Clinton's fault???

Hahahaha...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 06:34 PM

Well, I just heard a spokesman for the Scotter Libby trial say that the jury was concerned that Libby was being made a scpaegoat for both Rove and Cheney...

Hmmmmmm???

Yeah, nither will be brought to justice but, like O.J. Simpson, thet will both me marked men until the day they die...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Donuel
Date: 06 Mar 07 - 10:20 PM

Ha Ha Ha, Dickey always takes the absurd position a mile to the right of Pat Buchannon just to get your goat.

Will prison make Libby flip?

He sure could if put in general prison population right off rt. 1 in Burtonsville.
If however he gets the brig at Camp David he could do 2 years in a 4 room suite with a private chef for his meals.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Amos
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:48 PM

(Huffington Post, May 15 2008):

"Just off the House floor today, the Crypt overheard House Judiciary Committee Chairman John Conyers tell two other people: "We're closing in on Rove. Someone's got to kick his ass."

Asked a few minutes later for a more official explanation, Conyers told us that Rove has a week to appear before his committee. If he doesn't, said Conyers, "We'll do what any self-respecting committee would do. We'd hold him in contempt. Either that or go and have him arrested."

"


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 19 May 08 - 12:57 PM

Hmmmmmm.... Better move over Scooter... Karl's movin' in....


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Sawzaw
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 10:01 AM

What happened to your prediction Bobert?

Were you WRONG again?

But I'm gonna go on record of predictin' another 9-11 event in just over a year becuase the Repubs will be in desperate need for one and if they are goina stand any chance of holding the White House, after this dismal 8 years of theivery and lies, they can't do it without another 9/11... Keep in mind that the week before 9/11 Bush had the lowest approval rating of any president since such polls have been taken....

So that's my prediction... Sad... but I'm sticken by it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Bobert
Date: 27 Jun 10 - 08:35 PM

Call yer Betty Ford counselor, Sawz...

B~


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Sawzaw
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 08:58 AM

Still waiting for an explanation for your WRONG prediction Bobster.

First of all, I am very rarely wrong!!! No brag, just pure fact!!!

Ever notice how Bobert brags about not bragging?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Greg F.
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 09:30 AM

Blow Me.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Jack the Sailor
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 09:57 AM

So what if this particular prediction did not come true? It would not even diminish his statement about being rarely wrong, much.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is Karl Rove a Big Fat Liar???
From: Stringsinger
Date: 29 Sep 12 - 10:36 AM

No one is going to prosecute Karl. He is above the law. He also is responsible
for incarcerating Alabama Governor as well.

He is a powerful operative who controls the GOP.

Anything he says should be totally mistrusted.


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