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BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths

Donuel 27 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM
Donuel 27 Jun 05 - 05:58 PM
sixtieschick 27 Jun 05 - 06:17 PM
Donuel 27 Jun 05 - 06:30 PM
Big Al Whittle 27 Jun 05 - 06:35 PM
*daylia* 27 Jun 05 - 06:43 PM
CarolC 27 Jun 05 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,Chongo Chimp 27 Jun 05 - 09:48 PM
beardedbruce 27 Jun 05 - 10:12 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 27 Jun 05 - 10:20 PM
dianavan 27 Jun 05 - 10:41 PM
Stilly River Sage 27 Jun 05 - 11:21 PM
GUEST 28 Jun 05 - 02:04 AM
Wolfgang 28 Jun 05 - 05:36 AM
JohnInKansas 28 Jun 05 - 05:46 AM
freda underhill 28 Jun 05 - 06:50 AM
*daylia* 28 Jun 05 - 06:52 AM
Fibula Mattock 28 Jun 05 - 07:01 AM
GUEST 28 Jun 05 - 07:19 AM
Wolfgang 28 Jun 05 - 07:38 AM
freda underhill 28 Jun 05 - 07:41 AM
freda underhill 28 Jun 05 - 07:51 AM
freda underhill 28 Jun 05 - 07:55 AM
Donuel 28 Jun 05 - 08:00 AM
Fibula Mattock 28 Jun 05 - 08:36 AM
Little Hawk 28 Jun 05 - 10:46 AM
*daylia* 28 Jun 05 - 11:02 AM
freda underhill 28 Jun 05 - 11:08 AM
GUEST 28 Jun 05 - 02:46 PM
GUEST,leeneia 28 Jun 05 - 02:55 PM
Rapparee 28 Jun 05 - 04:45 PM
GUEST 28 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM
Little Hawk 28 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM
*daylia* 28 Jun 05 - 06:18 PM
jpk 28 Jun 05 - 06:38 PM
jpk 28 Jun 05 - 06:50 PM
JohnInKansas 29 Jun 05 - 05:06 AM
Wolfgang 29 Jun 05 - 06:50 AM
harpgirl 29 Jun 05 - 08:08 AM
Donuel 29 Jun 05 - 08:21 AM
Wolfgang 29 Jun 05 - 11:30 AM
harpgirl 29 Jun 05 - 12:13 PM
GUEST,leeneia 29 Jun 05 - 03:53 PM
jpk 29 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM
jpk 29 Jun 05 - 05:08 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 29 Jun 05 - 05:08 PM
jpk 29 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 30 Jun 05 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,McGrath of Harlow 30 Jun 05 - 01:28 PM
GUEST,HARPGIRL 30 Jun 05 - 03:20 PM
GUEST, Ebbie 30 Jun 05 - 04:12 PM
GUEST,jpk 30 Jun 05 - 05:15 PM
GUEST 30 Jun 05 - 05:35 PM
GUEST 30 Jun 05 - 05:37 PM
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Subject: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM

According to Prof. David Buss of the University of Texas 4% of all males have the cluster attributes that add up to being a social psychopaths. This does not mean they are serial killers but have the potential to be. A social psychopath has no remorse or conscience and will test having no affect in the presence of horrific violence.
They will simply not get upset over the things that Carol C or dianavan might find reprehensible. Maybe we should consider the minds we may be trying to change are psychopaths. There is no cure for social psychopathy.

Many psychopathic serial killers act out revenge in that they are not getting the recognition they think they deserve.

....................
Everyday I try to solve a problem


today's problem solved:


This 4% sounds like the ideal candidates that the Army recruiters should be looking for.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 05:58 PM

Dr. Buss went on to say there is a stronger likelyhood that social psychopaths can be found among identical or fraternal twins.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: sixtieschick
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 06:17 PM

How about the percentage among those holding political office?

M.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Donuel
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 06:30 PM

4 out of 100 might be small. Seems to me, people who feel they are not getting the respect they deserve, go into politics. Those that pride themselmes on tough dispassionate decisions may in fact be social psychopaths.

An interesting study might reveal that more Republicans are divorced compared to Democrats* as well as having more Social psychopaths among their members.


* I have long believed that Republicans cry out for family values because they have more families ; )


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 06:35 PM

That gives an idea for a song!


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: *daylia*
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 06:43 PM

Dr. Buss went on to say there is a stronger likelyhood that social psychopaths can be found among identical or fraternal twins.

???? I'd like to see some evidence of this! The twins I've known - including my own identical twin sons - seem to be gifted socially; friendly, gregarious and "empathically" sensitive to the needs and feelings of others.

Bet Dr Buss is not a twin!


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: CarolC
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 07:09 PM

So does this mean that everyone who says or does anything I find reprehensible is a psychopath? Did Dr. Buss name me specifically in his study?

;-)

( ...interesting thought there)


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST,Chongo Chimp
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 09:48 PM

No big deal. In my experience, 55% of all male gorillas are psychopaths. The females ain't so bad. Seems to me that humans ain't got much to complain about when it comes to this.

- Chongo


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: beardedbruce
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 10:12 PM

incomplete data. What percentage of women? Need something to compare it to.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 10:20 PM

My brother-in-law said that many of the snipers he knew in Viet Nam seemed to be psychopaths. Or anyway some kind of nut: not people you wanted to socialize with.

Not all were psychopathic of course. Some were decent guys who were finally emotionally destroyed by what they did, I'm told a number of them are still living on the Olympic peninsula and in like wilderness areas. They can't bear to be around people.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: dianavan
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 10:41 PM

Clint - I think you are right about that. I know that my brother and two friends joined the Marines when they were eighteen or nineteen. They couldn't find work and didn't want to go to school so... thats what you did in those days.

These were sweet, gentle boys. By the time they had finished basic training, the sparkle was gone from their eyes. Two ended up as snipers. One ended up as an instructor on the rifle range.

When they returned, they headed for the Olympic penninsula.

Yes, its true. They didn't want to live in the so-called civilized society anymore. They grew up too fast and their hearts were broken. Are they psychopaths? No, they were trained killers. Back home, they just didn't trust themselves anymore. Seemed it would be better for everyone if they went back to Nature to try to find some harmony.

Thirty years later they are still working odd jobs and living on the fringes of society. They aren't bad people, just broken hearted and disillusioned. They didn't have much of a chance really, they were just too young and innocent to withstand the horror of war. It is young men like this that pay the biggest price of all. Vietnam stole their youth.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 27 Jun 05 - 11:21 PM

Are you sure about that psychopath part of that information? I heard a radio talk show on NPR a couple of months back and the doctor/writer was talking about sociopaths, and there is a big difference. He postulated a number similar to what you suggest, or even higher.

SRS


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 02:04 AM

100% of men are also supposed to be 'potential' rapists.

There has not been a better time to take steps for all men to become women.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 05:36 AM

Daylia,

most probably Donuel has misrepresented or misunderstood what he has read. What he actually writes re twins makes not much sense. What he probably meant to write was the following:

If one twin is a social psychopath the probability that the other is a social psychopath as well is higher than 4 %, even more so for identical twins. (That would make sense if genetic factors play a role beside other factors).

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 05:46 AM

My Google on Prof. Buss didn't produce much in the way of direct info on his theories. He's written several "pop psych" books, and they're still selling well; so of course there are few direct quotes or samples to be found.

I did find a number of reviews by other psych(o) professors of speeches and/or classes by Prof. Buss. Most of them were to an extent critical of his work, and of course the few citations included in their reviews convincingly proved each and every one of their points.

Having reviewed reviews by at least a half dozen reviewers, and having read some 30 or 40 pages of their reviews, I did observe that there were fewer than a half dozen complete grammatical sentences in the entirety of all the articles I looked at. This leads me to the conclusion that 100% of psychologists, in the research fields related to the work of Dr. Buss, suffer from some personality defect that prevents them from forming complete thoughts, and/or expressing them in ordinary grammatical forms.

I think that's enough research for me for this morning.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 06:50 AM

There is a woman in my workplace who is consoidered to be a psychopath by her staff.

here is some food for thought... psychopaths in suits (no, it's not a musical!!)


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 06:52 AM

That makes a lot more sense, Wolfgang. IF you're looking for the possible genetic components of any trait or behavior, twin studies are a great place to start. Of course this does NOT mean that twins are more likely to display the trait or behavior - just that twins are ideal subjects for this type of study. This article from the Economist about a recent twin study in London supports what you've said ...

...behavioural traits with a large genetic component are more likely to be shared by identical twins than fraternal twins. Conversely, those traits with a large environmental component will be shared by identical and fraternal twins in equal measure. Applying appropriate statistical techniques to the actual amount of shared behaviour observed allows the relative contributions of genes and environment to be worked out....

Based on the teachers' assessments, the researchers identified the naughtiest 10% of the individuals in their sample—in other words those with severe conduct disorder. They then subdivided these children into those with psychopathic traits and those without and asked, in each case, whether an individual's twin showed bad behaviour, psychopathy, or both.

Their analysis showed that bad behaviour without psychopathy has relatively little genetic component—less than a third. By contrast, four-fifths of the difference in behaviour between the general population and children with psychopathic traits seems to lie in the genes.


Hmmmm... that last paragraph is a bit of a head-scratcher though...


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 07:01 AM

Hmmm. There's no formal medical diagnosis of "psychopath" though, is there...? So it's all moot!


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 07:19 AM

It was found during WWII that all but 2% of American soldiers were unable to withstand three months of unrelieved combat without suffering some degree of "nervous breakdown." In other words, they had become so emotionally beaten that they could no longer function on or near a battlefield.

The 2% that did not suffer such breakdowns tested as "psychopathic personalities."


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Wolfgang
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 07:38 AM

The Psychopathic personality

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 07:41 AM

info from the web...

The prevalence of APD [antisocial personality disorder] is estimated at three percent in males and one percent in females (American Psychiatric Association, 1994, p. 648), but the rate of psychopathy according to the Cleckley/Hare criteria is probably about one percent (Hare, 1993, p. 74).
________________________________________________________________

"Psychopaths are social predators who charm, manipulate and ruthlessly plow their way through life, leaving a broad trail of broken hearts, shattered expectations without the slightest sense of guilt or regret. Their bewildered victims desperately ask, 'Who are these people?'"

We often think of psychopaths as the disturbed criminals who capture headlines and crowd the nation's prisons. But not all psychopaths are killers. They are more likely to be men and women you know who move through life with supreme self-confidence -- but without a conscience. - Robert D Hare, "Without Conscience"
_________________________________________________________________

..the modern concept of 'psychopathy' was put forward by Hervey Cleckley (1903-1984) in his classic work The Mask of Sanity (1941). According to Cleckley's criteria a psychopath is an intelligent person characterised by poverty of emotions, who has no sense of shame, is superficially charming, is manipulative, who shows irresponsible behaviour, and is inadequately motivated. Interspersed in Cleckley's vivid clinical descriptions are phrases such as 'shrewdness and agility of mind,' 'talks entertainingly,' and 'exceptional charm' (Hare, 1993, p. 27).
____________________________________________________________________

Robert Hare remarks 'I can find no convincing evidence that psychopathy is the direct result of early social or environmental factors' (Hare, 1993, p. 170).
____________________________________________________________________

Is Psychopathy an Adaptation?


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 07:51 AM

Hervey Cleckley, who first observed and defined the psychopath, came up with this 16 point checklist of symptoms:

1. Considerable superficial charm and average or above average intelligence.

2. Absence of delusions and other signs of irrational thinking

3. Absence of anxiety or other "neurotic" symptoms considerable poise, calmness, and verbal facility.

4. Unreliability, disregard for obligations no sense of responsibility, in matters of little and great import.

5.Untruthfulness and insincerity

7. Antisocial behavior which is inadequately motivated and poorly planned, seeming to stem from an inexplicable impulsiveness.

7.Inadequately motivated antisocial behavior

8.Poor judgment and failure to learn from experience

9. Pathological egocentricity. Total self-centeredness incapacity for real love and attachment.

10. General poverty ot deep and lasting emotions.

11. Lack of any true insight, inability to see oneself as others do.

12. Ingratitude for any special considerations, kindness, and trust.

13. Fantastic and objectionable behavior, after drinking and sometimes even when not drinking--vulgarity, rudeness, quick mood shifts, pranks.

14. No history of genuine suicide attempts.

15. An impersonal, trivial, and poorly integrated seX life.

16. Failure to have a life plan and to live in any ordered way, unless it be one promoting self-defeat.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 07:55 AM

Cleckley's checklist can be found in his book The Mask of Sanity. Dr Robert Hare took this further:

Hare's Checklist

1. GLIB and SUPERFICIAL CHARM -- the tendency to be smooth, engaging, charming, slick, and verbally facile. Psychopathic charm is not in the least shy, self-conscious, or afraid to say anything. A psychopath never gets tongue-tied. They have freed themselves from the social conventions about taking turns in talking, for example.

2. GRANDIOSE SELF-WORTH -- a grossly inflated view of one's abilities and self-worth, self-assured, opinionated, cocky, a braggart. Psychopaths are arrogant people who believe they are superior human beings.

3. NEED FOR STIMULATION or PRONENESS TO BOREDOM -- an excessive need for novel, thrilling, and exciting stimulation; taking chances and doing things that are risky. Psychopaths often have a low self-discipline in carrying tasks through to completion because they get bored easily. They fail to work at the same job for any length of time, for example, or to finish tasks that they consider dull or routine.

4. PATHOLOGICAL LYING -- can be moderate or high; in moderate form, they will be shrewd, crafty, cunning, sly, and clever; in extreme form, they will be deceptive, deceitful, underhanded, unscrupulous, manipulative, and dishonest.

5. CONNING AND MANIPULATIVENESS- the use of deceit and deception to cheat, con, or defraud others for personal gain; distinguished from Item #4 in the degree to which exploitation and callous ruthlessness is present, as reflected in a lack of concern for the feelings and suffering of one's victims.

6. LACK OF REMORSE OR GUILT -- a lack of feelings or concern for the losses, pain, and suffering of victims; a tendency to be unconcerned, dispassionate, coldhearted, and unempathic. This item is usually demonstrated by a disdain for one's victims.

7. SHALLOW AFFECT -- emotional poverty or a limited range or depth of feelings; interpersonal coldness in spite of signs of open gregariousness.

8. CALLOUSNESS and LACK OF EMPATHY -- a lack of feelings toward people in general; cold, contemptuous, inconsiderate, and tactless.

9. PARASITIC LIFESTYLE -- an intentional, manipulative, selfish, and exploitative financial dependence on others as reflected in a lack of motivation, low self-discipline, and inability to begin or complete responsibilities.

10. POOR BEHAVIORAL CONTROLS -- expressions of irritability, annoyance, impatience, threats, aggression, and verbal abuse; inadequate control of anger and temper; acting hastily.

11. PROMISCUOUS SEXUAL BEHAVIOR -- a variety of brief, superficial relations, numerous affairs, and an indiscriminate selection of sexual partners; the maintenance of several relationships at the same time; a history of attempts to sexually coerce others into sexual activity or taking great pride at discussing sexual exploits or conquests.

12. EARLY BEHAVIOR PROBLEMS -- a variety of behaviors prior to age 13, including lying, theft, cheating, vandalism, bullying, sexual activity, fire-setting, glue-sniffing, alcohol use, and running away from home.

13. LACK OF REALISTIC, LONG-TERM GOALS -- an inability or persistent failure to develop and execute long-term plans and goals; a nomadic existence, aimless, lacking direction in life.

14. IMPULSIVITY -- the occurrence of behaviors that are unpremeditated and lack reflection or planning; inability to resist temptation, frustrations, and urges; a lack of deliberation without considering the consequences; foolhardy, rash, unpredictable, erratic, and reckless.

15. IRRESPONSIBILITY -- repeated failure to fulfill or honor obligations and commitments; such as not paying bills, defaulting on loans, performing sloppy work, being absent or late to work, failing to honor contractual agreements.

16. FAILURE TO ACCEPT RESPONSIBILITY FOR OWN ACTIONS -- a failure to accept responsibility for one's actions reflected in low conscientiousness, an absence of dutifulness, antagonistic manipulation, denial of responsibility, and an effort to manipulate others through this denial.

17. MANY SHORT-TERM MARITAL RELATIONSHIPS -- a lack of commitment to a long-term relationship reflected in inconsistent, undependable, and unreliable commitments in life, including marital.

18. JUVENILE DELINQUENCY -- behavior problems between the ages of 13-18; mostly behaviors that are crimes or clearly involve aspects of antagonism, exploitation, aggression, manipulation, or a callous, ruthless tough-mindedness.

19. REVOCATION OF CONDITION RELEASE -- a revocation of probation or other conditional release due to technical violations, such as carelessness, low deliberation, or failing to appear.

20. CRIMINAL VERSATILITY -- a diversity of types of criminal offenses, regardless if the person has been arrested or convicted for them; taking great pride at getting away with crimes.      

(Hare, R. (1991) The Hare Psychopathy Checklist-Revised. Toronto: Multi-Health Systems.)

these are the symptoims that define or charcterise a sociopath.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Donuel
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 08:00 AM

Prof. Buss was on CNN as a quick interview pertaining to the BTK killer. He has a book out on serial killers. The part about twins I strained to hear from another room so I could have misinterpolated that part. maybe a CNN search has the transcript. I would interested as to what was said of twins.

I have never known an evil twin.

I do have 2 neighbors who I could imagine as psychopaths. One is a very charming biker who is always in full biker regalia. Extremely intelligent and capable of being very funny or very scary. But he has a full range of emotions so scratch that one.

The other is an accountant who shows absolutely no emotion at all. A cold fish to the extreme and owns a cache of guns that no one person could possibly carry.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Fibula Mattock
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 08:36 AM

I know, but a 16 point checklist does not make a DSM-IV disgnosis. I'm interested in peoples' conceptions about mental health, and sometimes labels can be used that can be circular in their reasoning ("he's a psychopath because he behaves like this; he behaves like this because he is a psychopath").

On a tenuously related note, I see that twat Tom Cruise has claimed psychiatry is a "pseudo-science" and criticises Brooke Shields for taking anti-depressants for post-natal depression. Bit hypocritical coming from a scientologist...


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 10:46 AM

I would be entirely willing to become a woman...in my next incarnation, that is. I would also like a chance to pick which woman when I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:02 AM

Wow freda, thanks for the info. Scary thing is, most people I know - including myself - tend toward at least a couple of those (many) traits.

All the best, LH! Just remember, the grass always looks greener ....

I think I wanna be a Siamese fighting fish. I'd be SOOO pretty, I'd get my own private bowl, and I wouldn't have to share my space or my food with anyone or anything!!!

egads ... that sounds kinda psychopathic doesn't it?!?


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: freda underhill
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 11:08 AM

You know daylia, those psychopaths are ok once you get to know them a little (I used to work with a bunch of crims at one stage), its those femopaths that really freak me out!

f.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 02:46 PM

I once had a boss who would have merited many ticks on those scary checklists. Fortunately his boss cracked before I did - and fired him!
While the Human Race insists on believing that tough-minded ruthlessness is a virtue, we're all in danger.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 02:55 PM

It seems to me that the experts are being awfully careless here. If a psychopath possesses glib and superficial charm, then Dennis Rader (the so-called BTK killer) does not quality. Neither was he parasitic, and he did not have many short-term marital relationships.

There is no doubt that there is something terribly wrong with the man. But "psychopath" is not the proper term for him, and a professional going public ought to know that.

As for the twin study described in the London Economist, how in the world could one apply the definition of psychopath to young children? Perhaps their empathy simply hasn't developed yet.

A teacher only sees the public face of a family. Perhaps the children they regard as psychopathic are abused at home, perhaps they live with someone insane, perhaps they are exposed to an unusual amount of violent media, perhaps their caregivers are giving them drugs...

My sister-in-law works in a children's hospital. It is not unusual for them to find illegal drugs in the blood of young children. Maybe the babysitter wants them to calm down... etc etc


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Rapparee
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 04:45 PM

Does this then mean that 96% of all females are psychopaths?


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 05:17 PM

What a huge load of kaka.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM

It's "caca", isn't it?


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: *daylia*
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 06:18 PM

One-a-Kaka

two-a-kaka

three-a-kaka

four;


five-a-caca

six-a-caca

wanna see some more?


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: jpk
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 06:38 PM

only FOUR%,just shows how much the profs really know


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: jpk
Date: 28 Jun 05 - 06:50 PM

please consider too that most people limiting contact with so called civil society,do so because they relize that most of the so called gentel civil society,are noyhing more than phonies and not worth dealing with,bet more people limit there close contact with others,a lot more than they realize,and or will admit to.have a great day


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:06 AM

freda

28 Jun 05 - 07:41 AM: excellent article. I found a couple of things to disagree with, that I'll have to look into a bit. I'm not sure that my experience agrees with the "losers are more likely to cheat" bit, for example. My experience was that the guys on the "teams" - obviously(?) advantaged in the mating game - were most likely to think they "deserved success without effort" and hence did more deliberate "cheating" without feeling guilty. The ones "ill equipped for reproductive success" mostly were ill equipped to manage effective cheating. Perhaps it's just an out of context observation.

Note that "teams" can apply to the high school/college jocks, or to first level and/or middle managagement in business.

leenia

I wouldn't dismiss Rader's "glib and superficial charm." He had a responsible job, was an elected leader in his church, led a boy scout troop, and one person has stated her intention, having met him since his arrest, to write a book about him to show that "he is a fine and decent person, and a good Christian."

He probaly read William Whyte's The Organization Man about the time he started his crimes. Its peak popularity was in the 70s to early 80s. (UPenn Text has six chapters posted, but not the one on "How to Cheat on Personality Tests.")

While he had a long term marriage, he was certainly "promiscuous," since he confessed, believably, that his killings were "sexual acts."

Charming...and promiscuous.

John


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 06:50 AM

from the link to the Economist article:

They then subdivided these children into those with psychopathic traits and those without and asked, in each case, whether an individual's twin showed bad behaviour, psychopathy, or both.

Their analysis showed that bad behaviour without psychopathy has relatively little genetic component—less than a third. By contrast, four-fifths of the difference in behaviour between the general population and children with psychopathic traits seems to lie in the genes.


Leeneia, your general critique of the research methodology just does not apply in a meaningful sense to the article you have read. If you look at the differential results I have copied here, for most of your points to apply you would have to make quite unusual assumptions. Why should the exposure to violent media be different for identical twins in comparison to fraternal? Why should identical twins be given more or other drugs than fraternal?

In addition to that, newspaper articles rarely report fully about research articles. You wouldn't judge a music performance from reading one review, would you? The full article will be available soon if you want to judge for yourself:

Viding, E., Blair, R. J. R., Moffitt, T. E., & Plomin, R. (in press). Evidence for substantial genetic risk for psychopathy in 7-year-olds. Journal of Child Psychology and Psychiatry

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:08 AM

So what's Martha? Oh, and I've got dibs on her in my next life!


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Donuel
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 08:21 AM

random responses:

The 16 point checklist is like reading a pathology textbook. One can begin to imagine they have a symptom and therefore the disease.

Tom Cruise should pick on some one his own size.

Wolfgang: You seem well versed in scientific method/ publications.

freda When I think of femopaths I think of nurse Cratchit or Katherine Harris. How about Ann Coulter? http://www.angelfire.com/md2/customviolins/cheerleader.jpg

A recently retired Army sniper wrote a book of his experience. Interviewed on NPR he made a good case that he was not a social psychopath. The interviewer managed to leave the question in your mind without ever stating it.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: Wolfgang
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 11:30 AM

It's my job, Donuel.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 12:13 PM

Possessing glibness or superficial charm doesn't mean you merely have a charming personality, in this context. It means you know how to present yourself in a situation to create a desired reaction. That is, believability. It is a conscious choice to manipulate someone through the force of your personality. Thus, one can be charming and influential, without necessarily being a psychopath. But a psychopath will consciously choose such personality characteristics to manipulate someone's impression of them to achieve their aim. This might be murder or it might be getting votes to achieve a position of power. This glibness and charm thus becomes predatory and not genuine.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 03:53 PM

Re: They then subdivided these children into those with psychopathic traits and those without...

I consider it unscientific and unethical to label mere children "psychopathic". They cannot defend themselves, cannot even explain what pressures are being placed upon them in life.

As for not reading the whole article, I don't consider that important. If the media pick up on an article and disseminate ideas from it (such as that children may safely be branded psychopathic) then I have the right to object to the media's behavior.

(Don't nobody start telling me that I didn't use "media" grammatically above.)


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:04 PM

keep in mind that the psycho feilds are not science,only self styled voodoo.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:08 PM

ps most psycho docs spend there time trying to solve every one else problems because they can't solve their own[not always true but much more so than not]


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:08 PM

I was once told that the difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is that the sociopath commits felonies while the psychopath merely "uses" people. This distinction seems not be observed anymore (if it ever was), "sociopath" now being the professional term.

Was there ever a genuine distinction between the two labels?


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: jpk
Date: 29 Jun 05 - 05:40 PM

do not know but it sounds like the new breed of proffesional people coming out today[ceo's cfo's lawyers,etc][then again lawyers always been like that]


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 12:02 PM

Leeneia,

If you reread your post and my critique of your post you'll see that my only point was your way of argumentation. Your argumentation showed that had not understood what the research was really about for otherwise you would not have attacked it with arguments that do not make sense in that context.

You may be mad about labeling and about how the media report an article but if you give words to your negative emotion which amount to a critique of an article which is an invalid critique you may expect that to be pointed out.


Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST,McGrath of Harlow
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 01:28 PM

Looking at those lists of characteristics, most of the way down they read like person-specs for candidates for political officer, fast track promotion in business, or stardom in the entertainment industry.

I suspect that if anyone analysed lists of people (men or women) who have been described early in their careers as "most likely to succeed" , and looked at what happened subsequently, that could be very interesting in this context.   

My guess would be that in a lot of cases they would actually go on to "successful" - where they didn't, for some reason or other, that's perhaps where the real nastiness would be likely to happen. The high achievers who don't in fact achieve.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST,HARPGIRL
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 03:20 PM

sO NOW i KNOW YOU THINK AND WRITE IN STEREOTYPES, jpk. dO YOU BEHAVE IN A STEREOTYPICAL WAY AS WELL?


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST, Ebbie
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 04:12 PM

Whew! When I began reading the checklist, I feared I was reading about myself, but when I got a bit farther I got myself off the hook.

Some of the details depend upon context surely? Might we all incorporate some of those traits sometimes?

I remember- in fact, shall never forget - the one time I consciously utilized a well-known "female" ploy to get my own way. I got it- but I've never been happy that it worked.


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST,jpk
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:15 PM

yeh i do;damn southern redneck biker swamprat transplant in southern idaho[thing is,in somecases sterotypes,happen to fit better than what we would like for ideal to be][show me a lawyer that is not twofaced money hungry lying snake and i will show you a statistical anomaly].


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:35 PM

ps harp girl.sorry but i do tend to distrust people who do not work for a living but make a living off of other peoples work,there are far to many out there whose job does not contribute anthing to society as a whole.then again maybe i'm just a nutcase[IM A PSYCHO but ain't been told so yet].


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Subject: RE: BS: 4% of all males are psychopaths
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jun 05 - 05:37 PM

sorry that was me above jpk not use to the backdoor


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