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Lyr Req: Pronunciation req's for British Subjects

chico 02 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM
IanC 02 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM
Banjo-Flower 02 Jun 05 - 06:07 PM
Banjo-Flower 02 Jun 05 - 06:14 PM
GUEST,Allen 02 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Jun 05 - 06:40 PM
GUEST,Peter from Essex 02 Jun 05 - 06:51 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 05 - 07:01 PM
GUEST 02 Jun 05 - 07:12 PM
Ebbie 02 Jun 05 - 07:28 PM
chico 02 Jun 05 - 07:32 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 02 Jun 05 - 07:33 PM
Leadfingers 02 Jun 05 - 07:59 PM
chico 02 Jun 05 - 08:03 PM
Bunnahabhain 02 Jun 05 - 08:17 PM
Malcolm Douglas 02 Jun 05 - 08:43 PM
GUEST,leeneia 03 Jun 05 - 07:52 AM
GUEST,Paul Burke 03 Jun 05 - 08:15 AM
Dave Hanson 03 Jun 05 - 08:45 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jun 05 - 09:58 AM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 05 - 11:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jun 05 - 11:39 AM
Doug Chadwick 03 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM
Ebbie 03 Jun 05 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Allen 03 Jun 05 - 02:03 PM
Sorcha 03 Jun 05 - 02:20 PM
brid widder 03 Jun 05 - 04:12 PM
GUEST 03 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM
Santa 03 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM
Doug Chadwick 03 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM
GUEST,Allen 03 Jun 05 - 05:37 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM
Ebbie 03 Jun 05 - 06:00 PM
GUEST,Vice68 03 Jun 05 - 06:02 PM
JohnInKansas 03 Jun 05 - 06:11 PM
GUEST,Vice68 03 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM
RobbieWilson 03 Jun 05 - 06:25 PM
Don(Wyziwyg)T 03 Jun 05 - 06:34 PM
wildlone 04 Jun 05 - 02:49 AM
Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House 04 Jun 05 - 03:20 AM
Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House 04 Jun 05 - 03:22 AM
Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House 04 Jun 05 - 03:33 AM
GUEST 04 Jun 05 - 04:30 AM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Jun 05 - 07:54 AM
GUEST,padgett 04 Jun 05 - 08:20 AM
GUEST,crazy little woman 04 Jun 05 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,leeneia 04 Jun 05 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Allen 04 Jun 05 - 12:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 04 Jun 05 - 01:26 PM
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Subject: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: chico
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:41 PM

Can any linguistical expert elucidate the proper pronouciations for these words:


Grosvenor ( silent s or not?)
Edinburgh ('Borough' or "Burg"?)
Musselburgh (Mussel like 'muscle')?
Tichbourne ('sh' or hard 'ch' sound?)
Hotham (Hot-ham? or hoTHam like Gotham?)
Elizabeth (16th century usuage: long or short 'i', like Eliza is pronounced today?)
Tyburn (place of execution/beheading of Charles II. What is the 'y' sound, long or short?)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:53 PM

Grovenor (silent s)

Tie- burn (like neck tie, then burn)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: IanC
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 05:57 PM

Growvna
Edinbra
Musselbra
Titchburn
Hot-ham
Elizabeth isn't eliiza beth
Tie-burn

:-)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:07 PM

No 1 Grosvenor=Grove-ner
No2 Edinburgh (ask a Scot not an Englishman)
No 3 Musselburgh (As Above)
NO 4 Tichbourne = Titch- born
5& 6 =?
No 7 = Tie or Ty(as in Ty Hardin)Burn

Boy am I leaving myself wideopen here

Gerry


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Banjo-Flower
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:14 PM

Or should Tyburn be pronounced Tie-bun?

Gerry
even deeper in the mire


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:27 PM

Grove-ner.
Edinbra.
Muscelbra.
Titchburn.
Hot-ham (said quickly).
Elizabeth (short not like Eliza).
Tie-burn.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:40 PM

"...place of execution/beheading of Charles II" - not an episode known to the historical record. Charles died in his own time. And his father Charles the First was executed in Whitehall, down the other end of London.

Tyburn (pronounced with a tie) is at Marble Arch,and a very popular place of execution for the generality - highwaymen, and Catholic priests and so forth. It's quite near Speakers' Corner - I wonder if that tradition might have been a carry over from the crowds of spectators that used to attend on executions there for hundreds of years, and no doubt got haranged by orators on the scaffold and off it.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: GUEST,Peter from Essex
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 06:51 PM

Hotham

Difficult, it depends on the derivation of the name and local usage. The element "ham" in a place name should correctly be pronounced separately but modern usage has often changed that. If you are looking for period pronounciation it may be different from modern.

On the London / Essex border Walthamstow was historically pronounced walt-ham-stow but that changed to walth-'am-stow in the 19th century.

On the other side of London the town of Chesham is pronouced Chesh-ham by incomers but you can still find locals who say ches-ham


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:01 PM

I thought that Charles I was beheaded at the Banqueting House in Whitehall


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:12 PM

So why do you pronounce the letter R as "Aw" but when a word ends with the letter A you add an R to the pronunciation?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:28 PM

Because 'tis English, don' chew know. :)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: chico
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:32 PM

I accidentaly typed in an extra "I", I meant Charles I.

The song in question is "lawyer's lamentation of charing-cross"

The last words are:

Now, WHIGS, I would advise you all,
'Tis what I'd have you do;
For fear the King should come again,
Pray pull down TYBURN too.

This was written in 1647 2years before the beheading. Was this a premonition of the regicide, and the predicted spot? (whether or not it actually occured there?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:33 PM

BTW Chico,

In the UK, it's not Pronounciation, but (following the Latin root) Pronunciation.

I think you'll find most locals calling Hotham   "Hottum".
And Elizabeth is definitely short i, not like Eliza.

For the rest, Gerry (Banjo-Flower) is right in his first post, including asking a Scot for Scottish pronunciations.

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Leadfingers
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 07:59 PM

The reference to pulling down Tyburn too is that was where the Whigs were likely to finish up themselves , for rebelling against the Monarch !


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: chico
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:03 PM

The contemporary pro. of Elizabeth is short, but are you sure the period (time of Shakespeare 1550-1630) pronunciation of Elizabeth is short 'i'? At the time, words like "wind" were pronounced with a long 'i' (like to wind up a toy). The short i is mostly a modern creation in english as the language simplified (short i is easily to say).


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: Bunnahabhain
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:17 PM

Well done to the original poster for remebering we are subjects, not citizens.

I agree with the consesnus on all the pronunciations, BTW.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Jun 05 - 08:43 PM

As a rule, final -gh isn't voiced; that's what the "h" is for. I've only ever heard Edinburgh prounced with a final "g" by foreigners (they sometimes also say "Edin-broe". That's wrong, too). It should make no difference at all whether you ask a Scottish or English person; the only variation would be whether the final part is pronounced "bra" or "burra"; and that's merely down to how fast you say it.

That "wined/winned" business is a red herring, really, as poetic diction doesn't reflect contemporary usage. "Mind" and "wind" used to rhyme, true; but neither word was pronounced quite as it is today. "Mind" used to have a shorter vowel sound than it does now.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 07:52 AM

That said, how does one pronounce the given name Gervase? Or is it Gervaise?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: GUEST,Paul Burke
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:15 AM

For everything you want to know about Edinburgh, its history and its music, see Jack Campin's wonderful CD "Embro, Embro". That might give you a clue to at least one pronunciation too!

Embro, Embro

The American price gives you a very generous exchange rate just now!

As for Tyburn, that's where executions were carried out, and where several of the Regicides (those who signed Charles I's death warrant) were hanged, drawn and quartered after the restoration.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 08:45 AM

'ow would banjflower know, he's just a yellowbelly.

eric


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 09:58 AM

I don't think that the term "whig" would have come into use as early as 1647, but not for another 30 years. I'd have thoiught a song with a verse like that woudl have been more likely from a Jacobite source, dating from a tiem after the coup that sent James II into exile.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:01 AM

In view of the fact that just about everyone agreed with him, Eric, I should say he proved that he knows...............He Knaws ye Knaw!

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 11:39 AM

"...we are subjects, not citizens"

Not true, though it's a common assertion. People are subjects of the Queen (or King as may be), and citizens of the country, whichever country that might be, both at the same time.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:24 PM

Well done to the original poster for remebering we are subjects, not citizens

Bunnahabhain, you may be a subject but I am a citizen.

Doug C


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 12:42 PM

If you noticed, DougR, we may not be called that, but we too are definitely subject to the vagaries of the government of the country we are citizens of.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:03 PM

Jarv-ace.

Anyway, instead of arguing over how to pronunce Edinburgh, why not say Auld Reekie.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: Sorcha
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 02:20 PM

My all time favorite is Woolfardisworthy.....Woolsey!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: brid widder
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:12 PM

I think Hotham is Hoth'm or Hothum


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 04:56 PM

McGrath of Harlow, why do you say James II? I suppose you say Edward VII and not Edward II?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Santa
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM

Interesting to see the Chesh-ham/Ches-ham bit. Up here in Kirkham Lancashire, the adjacent village is Wesham: Wesh-um to most but Wess-um to some inhabitants. Or Wizzum. The next village is Greenhalgh - Greenhalsh or Greenhash. But Lytham is always Li-thum, never Light-ham or anything similar.

In a more civilised county there's Alnwick - Annik. But everywhere in England you'll find similar.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Doug Chadwick
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:13 PM

"If you noticed, DougR,....."

Wrong Doug, Ebbie

DC


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:37 PM

Woolfardisworthy doesn't beat Featherstonehaugh- Fanshaw!
English is full of names like Mainwaring which should be said Mannering.

Why does he say James II? Because that was the monarch's name perchance?


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 05:56 PM

James II of England, Wales, Ireland, and a few other places, James VII of Scotland. But that's a bit of a mouthful.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:00 PM

So right, Doug C - my apologies.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Vice68
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:02 PM

Round here, in Leith, (important distinction) it's(Edinburgh) pronounced "Embra"
James II ruled from 1437 to 1460. Elizabeth the first is now on the throne. Her son would be Charles the third. Funny how "his" kids are William and Henry, good ecumenical/non-masonic names both.....


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: JohnInKansas
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:11 PM

This debate seems to be one of the few truly enduring traditions that some parts of the US inherited and retained from the Brits.

I once lived in Boston on a street where the "proper pronunciation of the street name had divided residents for decades. The city had somewhat ameliorated the bitterness of the debate by placing a street sign at the end of the block, where those who lived on one side would likely enter so they could park in front without a U-turn, could use their favorite ROSS-e-ter, while at the other end of the block those of other inclination could see their preferred ros-ETT-er. One elderly person persistently went to the other end of the block, walked half way down and crossed in the middle because he said they put his sign on the wrong end of the block.

A short way down the road, the divisions in sentiment and "certain and indisputible historical knowledge" had force the city to erect SEVEN separate signs, each with a different spelling, to identify the "roundabout" called Kosciuzko Circle. Locals all had their firmly held convictions about which was the correct spelling, although not all who agreed on the spelling had the same pronunciation. Significantly, none of them could tell you who "Ol' Kozzy" was, or why they named the circle after him.

John


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Vice68
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:16 PM

also......
I really HATE that way of saying (eg) "withdrawing" as if there's a 2nd R. AAAAAAAAARGH!


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:25 PM

So what about these, some Scottish, some English;
Strathaven
Milngavie
Brewood
Cholmondley
Menzies
StJohn






































Strathaven      Stray ven

















Milngavie                Mull guy



















Brewood          Brood














Cholmondley               chum lay




















St John               sin gin















Menzies                        Mingus ( like Charley)


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Don(Wyziwyg)T
Date: 03 Jun 05 - 06:34 PM

That last is more usually Ming-ies (pronounced like us, i.e. singies).

Don T.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: wildlone
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 02:49 AM

Cholmondley-----Chum lee
I went to school there


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:20 AM

What about "Beau le eaux" - BOLLOCKS
I believe it derives from the late 11th century Norman.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:22 AM

Sorry that should have read "Beau les eaux" plural of course. the singular being "Testique alle"


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: Sliding Down The Bannister At My Auntie's House
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 03:33 AM

Whats all that cobblers about "ask a Scot, not an Englishman"? If something is posted here is it now autamaticaly classed as asking an Englishman? I thought it was addressed to the mnuddy community in general.

Anyway Edinburgh is the ENGLISH name for Důn Čideann (Fort of Aidan) which is the correct gaelic name for the town.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 04:30 AM

McGrath of Harlow, Edward VII was king of England, Ireland and Wales, but Edward Ist of Scotland, also a bit of a mouthful? Or why not be honest and admit you only use English titles.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 07:54 AM

I really HATE that way of saying...

But why? The world is full of variation. The languages we talk varies, the way we look and the way we dress and the way we behave, and the music we play. That's how it's supposed to be. Surely it's entertaining living in a world like that, not something to "hate".

................
As for the citizen/subject stuff, just have a look at a UK passport some time. It unambiguously uses the term "citizen".


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,padgett
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 08:20 AM

Try Higham = Hickham

Barugh = Bark

Notton (palindrome)

Cudworth = Cuderth (Michael Parkinson's birthplace)

Dodworth = Doderth

All around Barnsley, Sth Yorkshire


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,crazy little woman
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 11:23 AM

Re: The world is full of variation. The languages we talk varies, the way we look and the way we dress and the way we behave, and the music we play.
--------
Well said and done, McGrath.

I live in Missouri, and even the people who live here don't agree on how to pronounce it. I'm of the Missour-ee school, myself, along with most of the western part of the state.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 11:23 AM

I still want to know how to pronounce Gervase.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subjcts
From: GUEST,Allen
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 12:34 PM

Jarv-ace (emphasis on second syllable I think).

Surprised nobody mentioned the village of twocester- TOASTER.


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Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Pronounciation req's for British Subj
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Jun 05 - 01:26 PM

For that matter there's "London".   Or "Washington", when you think about it.


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