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BS: Bobert's Race Thread

Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 10:27 PM
John Hardly 13 Apr 05 - 10:36 PM
GUEST,TIA 13 Apr 05 - 10:50 PM
beardedbruce 13 Apr 05 - 10:54 PM
Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 11:01 PM
GUEST,WYS 13 Apr 05 - 11:11 PM
Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM
jacqui.c 13 Apr 05 - 11:14 PM
Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 11:16 PM
Bobert 13 Apr 05 - 11:21 PM
GUEST,WYS 13 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM
GUEST 13 Apr 05 - 11:33 PM
GUEST,Azizi 13 Apr 05 - 11:34 PM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 12:12 AM
dianavan 14 Apr 05 - 12:54 AM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 07:02 AM
John MacKenzie 14 Apr 05 - 07:55 AM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 08:32 AM
GUEST,WYS 14 Apr 05 - 09:56 AM
John Hardly 14 Apr 05 - 10:26 AM
GUEST,WYS 14 Apr 05 - 10:43 AM
Susu's Hubby 14 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM
robomatic 14 Apr 05 - 12:49 PM
John MacKenzie 14 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM
susu 14 Apr 05 - 02:02 PM
John MacKenzie 14 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 03:01 PM
Azizi 14 Apr 05 - 03:43 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM
Azizi 14 Apr 05 - 04:07 PM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 04:58 PM
John Hardly 14 Apr 05 - 05:12 PM
robomatic 14 Apr 05 - 05:35 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM
SINSULL 14 Apr 05 - 06:20 PM
Burke 14 Apr 05 - 07:10 PM
PoppaGator 14 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM
Once Famous 14 Apr 05 - 09:33 PM
harpgirl 14 Apr 05 - 09:41 PM
harpgirl 14 Apr 05 - 10:00 PM
Bobert 14 Apr 05 - 10:09 PM
SINSULL 14 Apr 05 - 10:56 PM
dianavan 15 Apr 05 - 01:23 AM
Bobert 15 Apr 05 - 07:53 AM
Once Famous 15 Apr 05 - 12:24 PM
wysiwyg 15 Apr 05 - 01:09 PM
CarolC 15 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM
Azizi 15 Apr 05 - 02:43 PM
Once Famous 15 Apr 05 - 03:58 PM
robomatic 15 Apr 05 - 05:20 PM
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Subject: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:27 PM

Well, well, well...

Seems that things goin' left over in the "offensive" thread so I figured I'd jus' set me up a big ol' tent here and camp out...

Yeah, ol' John Hardly accused ol' me o' being some kinda self appointercated white African American 'cause the way I talk an' then I tried to explain my dialection an' then folks said this and folks said that an' so I figgured that I might as well just ley it all hang out...

First of all, in case folks got their history from Rush Limbaugh 'er George Bush 'er George Wallace, black peole din't exactly sign on to be stuffed into boats and be brougth to the New World to be slaves. No, weren't like that at all... Ain't none volunteered... Lets get that straight from the jump... That's like, ahhhh, none... And who was doing this stuff? Well, sure ytou can find a few black people who profited from stealing other black people but this weren't the norm but the rare exception... The folks that were doing this were white folks...

Fast forward to Lincoln's proclaimation... Hey, what was that all about? Ya got nuthin, yer gonna get nuthin' but yer free... What a crock! And who did this. A white guy, that's who!

Then it was 90 years of Jim Crow and the KKK, the John Birchers, the Minutemen, ect, etc, etc..... of terrorism... Yeah, terrorism practiced against black folks, none of whom had anything to do with why they were in the "New World"...

And "New World" my butt.... It wasn't like "new world" excewt to whom?Well, I'll tell ya. White people. For the indiginous folks the only thing new was getting killed and robbed by, ahhhhhh, white people...

Now we have a bunch of self rightous white people, some of whom post here in Mudville, saying that stuff like Affirmative Action" is discriminating against them? And they support an administration that takes funding away from nutritional programs and educational programs and medical programs that help black people, who were dumped along the side of the road officially in 1865 and unofficially when they were rounded up in 1619??? Like what's that all about???

So now because I happen to stand up and say "Hey, what's this all about" am accused of being the resident "self appointed white African American"???

First, I am ashamed of what white folks have done in what now comprises the United States. They have killed off a lot of non white people for land. And look what they have done to the native Americans... Put them in concentartion camps (reservations) where poverty is the norm rather than the exception... And look what white folks have done to the the kids and grandkids of slaves... Stuck them in concentration camps (housing projects)...

Second, what white folks owe non whites, given the great wealth creted in the the "United States" are repairations.... And lots of them since it has been white folks who have broken families, and bodies, and minds, and spirits and thrust non white folks into concentration camps... Yeah, that's exactly what white America OWES black and indiginous folks. And OWES these folks big time!!! Firget Affirmative Action... That ain't even the shadow of the tip of the iceburg when it come to what black and indigibnous folks have given up, either in land, resorces or labor, to create the wealth that white folks enjoy! Not even the mist over the shadow of the tip of the iceburg!!!!....

Third, yes, I am ashamed to be white because it means that every non white I meet I have to go thru the Dance of the Dieing Duck... I don't enjoy having to to that but for white folks like me it is something that we do... Yeah, it is embaressin'... But we do it. And why? Well, I'll tell ya why... Because there are a lot of white folks out there- I mean a lot- who continue to stack the deck against America *ever* gettin' it's stuff together and doing the right thing to correct it's sins... The Bible says "sin no more" yet white America is so caught up in sin that it is sinning to cover its past sins....

So, no, I ain't no self appointed white African American... But I'm a Christain and Jesus wouldn't like what white folks is doing, lots of them in His name... No, rather than think myself some appointed *whatever* I'd rather just think myself a follower of Christ... If that pisses off some folks then so be it but Jesus wouldn't have stood for what white folks have been doing for way too long...

Peace

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:36 PM

"Yeah, ol' John Hardly accused ol' me o' being some kinda self appointercated white African American 'cause the way I talk"

No. I did not. Not on the basis of the way you talk.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,TIA
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:50 PM

Hey Bobert - Amen Brother.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: beardedbruce
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 10:54 PM

Sonnet 27/09/04 On the Opening of NMAI CMXXXIII

I listen to the songs of life, as told
By dark-eyed beauties, hair the color of
True wisdom: Quiet words that power hold
To speak of family, work; hopes, tears, and love.
I see the flash of fire in eyes, that tell
Of old injustice, but a smile for all.
What have we done, to past redeem, or spell
Out what we owe for what greed let befall?
I feel the beat of drums: Power to move
Both feet and hearts. What will the future show?
How can this nation honest fairness prove
Unless we make amends for what we know?
We have no reason, now, to debt deny:
How will our conscience to this call reply?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:01 PM

Thanks, TIA... I kinda thought when I hut the "submit" clicker that I was sealin' my fate in Mudville... Like I was gonna be lynched... And I know what it's like to be lynched 'round this joint...

I would hope that as folks bomb around this thread that folks will strip away all the rationalizations and mythologies as to how we exactly got here...

This discussion is way over due...

I know why it can't take place in George Bush's governemnt but it doesn't prevent the citizenry from going ahead without him otr his cohorts... And I could say the same for the Clintonites...

Thanks again, TIA...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:11 PM

:~(

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:12 PM

Right on, beardedbruce, right on... Yeah, *how* will our conscience reply? That's what I'm talkin' 'bout... It's called "repairations"... The root word is "repair"....

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: jacqui.c
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:14 PM

Bobert - those that have got to know you take you for what you are and, speaking for myself, I reckon you're a pretty nice guy with a good way of communicating.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:16 PM

Sorry, WYSusan.... The Devil done got in me an' made me do it... Jus' funnin' but I knew that I was gonna get a little quiet time in WYSusan's "Quiet Corner" and, hey, I did the crime so, ahhhhh, how much time do I got.... An' do you still give 5 minute bathroom breaks every hour????

(Yer humbled) Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:21 PM

Well gol danged, jacqui, I love's ya fir sayin' that.. If Kendall ever goes thur a little mid life crisis 'bout the same time that the P-Vine has the same little situation then....

Ignore this ol' fool...

Just nice readin' that folks ain't pokin' pins in Bobert voodoo dolls...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:22 PM

I LOVE you guys! Yer BOTH better than this! Take my word for it! Call yerselves Christians. Huh, SHOW me that!

You miserable dopes! Can't you even see you are on the same damn SIDE? Don't you know the first thing racism does is it sets the people who agree, against each other, to distract them from noticing from the bad things being done to the folk about to be shit on? I could smack you both with a wet, I dunno what-- a wet cat!

"Humbled," my ass! Where's that damn cat. It will be a FERAL one from Wis-f*cking-sconsin! It will wish it had been shot!

~Disgusted


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:33 PM

In the "Why do you offend so easily" thread John Hardly called Bobert a White African American.

I repeat my response to that comment:

"For the record: Bobert is way cool with me. He and P-vine are my friends.

Just because a person wasn't born Black doesn't mean he or she can't be accepted by Black people as for real, positive people.

I don't take offense to anything Bobert has said or the way he has said it.

I'm not even sure what the heck you are talking about John.

I'm sure that Bobert can speak for himself. But I will say that if something Bobert said or the way he said it is a bit much for you, then that's on you [which you already know]. "

-snip-

John also took exception to Bobert's statement that he is comfortable hanging with Black people. He wrote:

"To say I'm "comfy" hanging out with blacks would imply a simplicity that is not there. Blacks are much too broad a group for one to assume comfort or discomfort with. (Wasn't it King who said that the goal was to judge on character, not skin color?). So, what? ..comfort with the poor innercity black? ...the affluent suburbanite black?"
-snip-

John then asked "What is your inference about the people to whom he refers when Bobert says he's "comfy" hanging out with black folk?"

I believed that that question was directed to me, and I answered:

"If a White person says that he or she is comfortable hanging out with Black people that does not mean he or she is patronizing Black people or lumping all Black people together into one homogeneous group.

I'm an African American who hangs out on Mudcat and there doesn't appear to be any other acknowledged African American who post here YET.

I believe that the overwhelming majority of 'Catters are White and
I'm comfortable here. Does that mean that I think that all 'Catters are the same? Does it mean that I think that all White people are the same?

No to both questions.

Maybe your definition of comfort means that the group has to be homogeneous. That's not my definition."

-snip-

I have PMed Bobert and told him that I have his back regarding this issue.

This does not mean that I am in total agreement with everything he has said in his first post of this thread or anything he will say in the future. For instance, I believe that a number of African ethnic groups where extensively involved over a great deal of time in the African chattel slavery. There were also some Black people who owned slaves.

Be that as it may, I totally agree with Bobert that he is comfortable with Black people. I feel that this statement is true for Bobert and and at least a few other Mudcatters who I have conversed with.

Why? Because I believe them when they say that they paid their "dues". These dues were paid in actions on behalf of Black people during Civil Rights days, with work in African American communities, and otherwise.

And as far as I'm concerned, actions speak louder than words.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,Azizi
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:34 PM

That last post was mine.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:12 AM

I would love to bridge the gap, WYSusan, with John... I don't hear John sayin' the same things I am sayin'. I wish I did but I don't... I don't wnat to sound too generalizin' but it seems that John doesn't see any reason why white America owes anything to black America... Hey, that is one long bridge to build...

I believe that white America has screwed black folks and indiginous folks and has profited greatly from the screwin' an' it time to pay the fiddler...

Now if John and I were so closely alligned in out thinking then I would think that John would step to the plate and say, "Hey, maybe Bobert's right on this one. Heck, he was due since he has been wrong on everything else. But he's right"

But I don't hear that???

And I don't hear that from white America???

The blame always comes down to the victims...

"Yeah, if "these" people want to get anywhere "they" are gonna have to pull "themselves" up by "their" bootstraps...

Like, ahhhhhhm "they" got any bootstraps???

(Two more hours in WYSusan's "quiet corner", Bobert...)

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:54 AM

I grew up believing that 'God loved all the little children." When I found out that there was racial discrimination, my world shattered. I cried and then I raged against my folks because it seemed that they had lied to me. When it finally calmed down, my mother urged me not to carry the weight of the world on my shoulders...

Nasty bit, racism.

I, too, am comfortable with people from other cultures and a rainbow of colours. Not because I associate with a particular group but because I associate with many different individuals and many different groups of people. When it all comes down, our similarities outweigh our differences.

I have three God-children all from different sets of parents. They range in colour from Namibian Black to Caribbean Cinnamon. I am also visited regularly by three other kids (young adults), all unrelated, that I have known since they were toddlers. None are Afro-American - all are light brown. They are more than comfortable with me and I can assure you that my heart would break if they stopped visiting me because of my colour. We have far more in common than the guys down the street(from Fiji)that call them sisters and brothers.

The colour of your skin means nothing to me. Its who you are to me that counts.

...and Bobert, at least, is a man that can be trusted. He said he would send me some climbing hydrangea and he did! What colour are you anyway? I always suspected that you were sort of pinkish with straight white hair but I never held it against you.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:02 AM

Oh gosh, d, I forgot about them beans I dent you... Ahhhh, hate to trell ya but they aren't hydrangeas but hyacinths and are annuals but, hey, they climb...

Ahhhhh, not too pink. Ma that is... Kinda pale but you go the hair absolutley right and gettin' whiter with every day I knock heads here in Mudburg... BTW, fir an accuratness of my paleness you can check out my "pic" in the photo section (compliments to Bill D...).

Yo, WYSusan, can I get up now. I gotta tinkle...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:55 AM

Bobert you're OK from where I sit over here in the UK. You don't normally get upset by what people post, and I wonder why this one got through. You can't feel the guilt for a whole nations wrongdoing, and you're doing what you think is right to make up for perceived wrongs. You can't however atone for all the sins of all the forebears of the US of A. What I do is take folks as they come whatever colour, and if I end up not liking them I don't let it worry me if they happen to have a different skin colour. It's a bit like kids, you get people who say "I love kids", well I defy you to love all kids as some of them are totally unlovable. I don't feel guilty because some people reckon all kids are lovely; that's crap!!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 08:32 AM

Couldn't agree with you more about kids, Giok! That's the best part about havin' grandkids... You can sent the little monsters back home when you've had 'nuff o' them...

As fir color, or lack there of, I agree wid ya. I take 'um as they come and, sniff, I must admit that I like most people and while I'm in the confessional mode... I wasn't really all that riled up by what John said and prolly shouldn't have said nuthin' at all that had anything to do with him but just started the thread anyway for the sake of discussion...

Sorry, John...

Now can I go pee, WYSusan?

Pleeeze...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:56 AM

OK, Bobert.

Hey Bobert, and Hey John Hardly,

Do you both by any chance agree that racism sucks, that it has hurt a lot of people, and that it would be great to get rid of it?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:26 AM

Susan,

Racism more than "sucks". It is evil. But it is also insidious -- and the "getting rid of" part is the sticky part.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: GUEST,WYS
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:43 AM

JH,

Can we please take this in tiny baby steps. Would you agree with my statement? Perhaps it does not go far enough, or perhaps the words are not quite yours. But is it a statement you can basically agree with?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Susu's Hubby
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:15 PM

This thread has the makings of something really ugly so let's swing it to what the issue really is.

I think that the issue really has to do with where we are as a country as opposed to where we were and how far we need to go from this point on.

I think that the country as a whole is on the right track as far as race relations are concerned and is there a lot of room for improvement? Of course there is. But let me throw out a question.

Does the continued outcry for racial equality really help or hinder the forward movement? Some are of the opinion that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. This is true for a lot of instances and is what eventually put the spark under the CR and equality movement. But some others are of the opinion that if people would stop bringing extreme cases to the forefront as everyday happenings then true racial equality has the chance to exceed even present levels.

This goes for reparations as well. Why would somebody be OK with the thought that they are going to be punished and economically hit for something that was done by their great grandparents or gg grandparents or even ggg grandparents. They didn't ask to be born white, black, mexican, or asian. So why should they be asked to be responsible for actions of their predecessors? The courts have ruled time and time again about the same reasoning used in cases where war spoiles collected by victorious troops in Germany and Japan where the families of the owners of the original items have sued to be somehow compensated for the losses of the property of their familial predecessors. The courts have ruled that even though the losses were indeed unfortunate, the current owners of the property were not responsible for any monetary reparation for the disputed property because of the fact that it wasn't them who directly was responsible for their loss in the first place.

The slavery era was one of if not the darkest moment in US history. But for people to keep that era in the forefront and keep beating the same drum, IMO, is turning more people off than keeping the continued struggle of gaining even more ground and truly being thought of as equals.


Hubby


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:49 PM

I don't see anything wrong with what Bobert says or how he says it. But he doesn't speak for black people. He is - maybe - trying to speak, sorta like he thinks some black people speak. I am not clear as to whether the written accent is meant to be simply his own 'brand' or is to be identified with 'black' speech. He doesn't seem in a hurry to make this clear here.

If I were to venture a guess, I'd say Bobert is trying to speak in his distinctive manner, kinda like the aw-shucks barndance caller or the simple country preacher, Andy Griffith style, with the stamp of the common man but in reality a mind sharp as a heading axe or a two-bit carny con. It can be fun if you keep your hand on your wallet.

I volunteered at a radio station where one of the R&B DJ's liked to speak in his own kind of special 'ergot' which gave the strong impression that he was a white dude trying to sound black. I never tried to plumb the depths of this with him and the first few times I listened to his show I didn't mind it, but over time it began to creep me out.

There is nothing wrong with John Hardly's sentiments either. He's entitled to make observations on his fellow thread-folk. There is a certain ambiguity and imprecision in a lot of Bobert's 'folksy' ways which call this forth.

I've lived with, and worked with, black folk. That gives me no right whatsoever to feel that I speak for black folk. What it does give me is some real life experience which may (or may not) be useful.

As for reparations, I noticed that Bobert made a big deal on the word without getting specific as to cold hard cash. In the sense that the descendants of slavery deserve some special acknowledgement, I don't disagree, so long as it is truly helpful.

I think The Civil War counts for a lot.

As for affirmative action, I was too young to be a political supporter of The Great Society Programs, but I 'would have' been in favor of them. The question now is what good have they done and what steps are to be taken in the light of present knowledge. Yesterday's solutions are not those of today.

If there are eventually reparations offered from the non-involved to the distantly related, I'm going to be very interested in filing a claim against the Egyptians with the World Court.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM

You sayin' Ol' Hill Billy Bobert's gotten a disease?
Ergot
Giok ¦¬]


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: susu
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:02 PM

Okay, here are some points I didn't see mentioned.
1) Not all black people are here as a result of slavery.
2) Not all white people owned slaves, some even disagreed with slavery. Go figure.
3) Some white people in this country were not here during the time there were slaves.
4) Not all slaves were black, look at the Chinese who built the railroads and were enslaved in the west.
5) There were some black people who actually sold family members into slavery.
6) Some slaves, while not originally here of their own free will, when set free, chose to stay with the family they served.

Yes, what some people in the past did was deplorable, but the thought that reparations will make amends is ludicrous. How would you propose that someone prove who are true descendants of slaves? And why should anyone be made to pay for the mistakes of their forefathers? If you were a descendant of a murderer, should you be punished, being made to pay restitution damages to their family (families)? No. This is no different. My family did not come to this country until after the civil war, so why should I have to pay for the sins that are not even a part of my family's history? Justify that Bobert!


http://www.opinionjournal.com/best/?id=95001074

http://overlawyered.com/archives/01/sept1.html#0906c


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 02:36 PM

Oh dear! I hear the sound of a can of worms opening.
G..


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:01 PM

bobert's folksy dialect is totally phony, contrived, and strained.

I completely disrespect him for it because it seems about as natural as sodium benzoate.

Behind the Andy Griffith is a cunning and scheming radical.


susu's hubby had a lot of realistic things to say above on this.

Now, I have a serious question for Azizi, who's posts I like to read and get her perspective on things. WHY are you the only Afro-American on Mudcat? Why is there none others here?


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:43 PM

Hello Martin.

Thanks for the compliment.

Let me clarify that I think that there may indeed be other African Americans who have posted on Mudcat as Guests...but it certainly appears as though I'm the only 'acknowledged' African American who regularly posts here.

I'd love to know why...

I know that I encouraged an African American girlfriend to join Mudcat. She lurked for a while and she posted a couple of times. But she told me that the Darkie Days thread turned her off..and said she was through..

If people would pardon my saying so, Mudcat is not the most aesthetically appealing website..and if people are unfamiliar with text based discussion forums and aren't knowledgeable about British folk music the music threads are rather daunting to get through.

The first time I came to this site, I didn't get it..It took me two years coming back and forth a couple of times before I got Internet savy enough to figure out what it's all about. I finally figured out that 'threads' were like conversations that you could join..or you could check out the subjects of older threads and re-start the conversation again..or you could introduce a new subject that you are interested in and others might also be interested in.

I KNOW that I not the only African American who is interested in engaging in intellectual exchanges..Or witty funny exchanges, or the dozens or...well you get my drift...

And more and more Black people have home computers..so that can't be it...

Bottom line, I think this is a matter of letting people know about Mudcat.

I'm tellin other people I know and I have a hyperlink on my website Cocojams..not that very many people know about that either.

???? so who knows????


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 03:47 PM

Thanks for your reply, azizy.

Yeah, the Brit music scene is about as dauunting as their humor. At least that mouth full of marbles accent is not heard in a text format.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:07 PM

You're welcome Martin.

Well that multi-faceted American folk music scene is kinda daunting too.

But if people take the time, IMO Mudcat can be well worth it..

I've certainly learned alot since I've been here.

And I've met some interesting people, yourself included.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 04:58 PM

Hey, are we havin' any fun yet? Didn't think so...

This is a tough conversationt but a conversation that none-the-less is way overdue in Anerica...

First of all, everyone who thinks that I try to sound black, raise yer hands. (Hmmmmmmm? That's a fair amount there, Bobert) Hey, Iz tried to explainerate this a couple times and ain't gettin' nowhere with it so I'll just go on record of sayin' " I ain't trying to sound like nobody but me!" **There, that is my official statement on the subject!!!** PERIOD!!! Don't think so, PM anyone who knows me personally an' they'll tell ya that I talk jus' 'bout the way I write... If any of you have a particular psycholgical need to think I'm jus' tryin' to put somethin' over here in Mudville then please fell free to nurture that need, take two Tylenol's and talk to a good counseler... Lotta poly-morphorse-perverse-guilt going 'round these days in Mudville...

Now as fir "repairations"... Yeah it's easy for someone to say, hey, I ain't responsible fir nothin' that grandaddy did... But lets look at it another way... Much of the wealth this country enjoys come from the labors of those who came before us and a disporportionate amount of the infastrccture upon which todays wealth is enjoyed was built by black folks??? Now fast forward and we still find a disporportionate number of balck folks living in poverty... Hmmmmmm? Now, I'm not gonna lay out a plan for repairation but would like for folks who have been the first to say "I ain't tesponsible fir what grand daddy did" to at least give their position on the issue a rethinkeratin'...

Niff fir now, I'm spoded to be out playin' with Mr. shovel...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: John Hardly
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:12 PM

and I might as well link this here too, since this seems not to be limited to one thread.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: robomatic
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:35 PM

You sayin' Ol' Hill Billy Bobert's gotten a disease?
Ergot
Giok ¦¬]


cogito, ergo 'ergot' argot!

My mistake!

'robo'


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:43 PM

bobert, I'm not saying that you write "black." Just with an air of snobbish and forced folksiness.

If that is indeed the way you talk, you should be doing commercials for middle class America or be the narrator for a show like Desperate Housewives.

If this is the way you always write, I would suggest that you take a writing course in your local community college and learn how to fucking spell and use punctuation. You are not coming across as Mark Twain.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 06:20 PM

Bobert,
My observations:
Slavery destroyed black families, forced them into a matriarchal hierarchy, and black men (in general) never recovered.
Fast forward:
While other racial groups can assimilate if they choose into a white society by learning the customs, the language, whatever, blacks stand out because they are black. Racism whether based on race or religion will always exist because there will always be a disenfranchised group that needs a scapegoat.
Discrimination against blacks exists in housing, employment, education. I have seen it first hand and it has nothing to do with credentials, qualifications, etc. Behind their backs even the black executive is referred to as the "schwartzer" by other executives. Sad and ugly but true.
I worked for one company that routinely hired based on capability and experience. Most of the management happened to be black - strong, aggressive business men who attracted other strong aggressive black businessmen. Funny but both the white and the black administrative staff resented them. Go figure.

Martin - this is one of those times when your enforced distancing from in-person meetings has led you astray. Bobert is genuine. His "voice" is consistent. A "cunning scheming radical???? Please explain.

There is a strong probability that Jesus was black or at least dark skinned. A black Jew - wonder how he would fare in Hometown USA.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Burke
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:10 PM

"every non white I meet I have to go thru the Dance of the Dieing Duck"

I have never heard this expression & really do not understand what you mean by it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: PoppaGator
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 07:17 PM

I agree wholeheartedly with all of Bobert's historical analysis. It is undeniable that slave labor, as well as the underpaid labor of emancipated blacks (and also, perhaps to a lesser extent, that of various similarly exploited immigrant groups), created much of the USA's infrastructure.

On the other hand, I can't go along with any reparations proposal that I've yet seen, or any such proposal that I can imagine:

1) WHO PAYS:

If there were a way to make it work, perhaps it would be fair to collect from those white folks who (a) are wealthy, and (b) whose personal wealth can be more-or-less-directly attributed to exploitation of black folks. But really, how could that possibly work?

Please don't look at me ~ I'm not in desperate poverty, but I'm living from paycheck to paycheck, as did my parents, and none of my grandparents were born in the US and therefore were not here until well after the abolition of slavery. None of their families ever profited from the slave trade, either, by the way: all of 'em were simple peasant farmers before they sailed across the sea ~ sharecroppers, basically.

Three of the four grandparents, in fact, came from a country colonized by Britain, where many generations of their ancestors were forbidden to learn to read, to own property, to decide which crops they might grow to feed themselves, or to practice their religion. Not at all unlike African slaves in America, when you think about it ~ except that, while they had the supposed "dignity" of freedom from literal enslavement, they also had to face the reality that no one controlling the means of survival cared if they lived or died, since they were not the bosses' "property." And this is not ancient history; these conditions prevailed well into the mid-19th century, just about as long as slavery existed in the American South.

2) WHO GETS PAID?

In real-life practical terms, I'm very skeptical that fully equal shares of any "reparations" fund would ever find their way to the folks most in need and most deserving. The usual crowd of hustlers and politically connected hotshots would immediately be filing papers to prove that they're 1/32 African (or whatever the crtierion might be), lining up to "administer" the program (i.e., rake a nice hefty percentage off the top), and/or dreaming up their own original scams to exploit the guilt and good intentions of others.

Back in the 1960s, I was naive enough to think that when black folks began to vote and to put some of their own people into elective office, the new officeholders would be as virtuous and idealistic as Dr. Martin Luther King. Boy, was I ever wrong! Here in Louisiana, anyway, the new breed of African-American politicians are every bit as corrupt as their white predecessors, from whom they learned whole bagsful of dirty tricks.

I'm not saying today's black politicians are any worse than whites ~ quite the contrary: one bunch of crooks is just as bad as the other. (Of course, there are also a variety of good and half-decent ones, of any and all races.) Indeed, I think that the fact that those attracted to public life are equally likely to yield to temptation proves that all people are basically the same, regardless of "race."

Oh yeah, one more thing about Bobert: I heartily endorse (and enjoy) his written diction, and absolutely believe him when he tells us that it's pretty much the way he speaks in person. I speak in a similar manner myself, mixing colloquial and even deliberately incorrect "folksy" usage with an occasional highfalutin' big word when no other word will serve. I just write in a much more formal manner than I speak ~ probably just because I write technical manuals for a living.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:33 PM

I'm not paying.

Pay me for all the slavery and abuse that Jews have gone through. Or pay the Indians.

and Sinsull, I have no reason at all to believe you. And who cares if Jesus was a black Jew? Look at his image in every damn church and you will see who cares. I hope he was a black Jew. He would still not be the messiah.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 09:41 PM

Actually, Sinsull, postmodern technological society has done more damage to both black and white families than slavery ever did. We made a mistake when we linked capitalism and free market economies with technological advances. The need for automobiles has done more damage to black and white families, than slavery.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: harpgirl
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:00 PM

Here's an interesting point of view:

"The conservatives are fools: They whine about the decay of traditional values, yet they enthusiastically support technological progress and economic growth. Apparently it never occurs to them that you can't make rapid, drastic changes in the technology and the economy of a society with out causing rapid changes in all other aspects of the society as well, and that such rapid changes inevitably break down traditional values."

Traditional values such as concern for the other guy, protecting the weak, providing for the underprivileged? The corporate world at the very top selects for sociopathy. That is why we see so many of these CEO's doing grossly antisocial things.

The provision of health care in the Unites States is so expensive now that it will likely be shed as a benefit of corporate employment. But that is because it is technoloigcally driven and much more expensive. Chinese health care is still much much cheaper. But that will change, too, I suspect. Convincing us that we don't deserve it as a perk is just a smoke screen for the real causal problem. It's technologically and profit driven. That is the problem.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:09 PM

Well gol danged, Martin ol buddy, we sho nuff agree that indiginous folks also need ot be compensated... Ain' too sure where Jews come in to repairation on the US landscape but may you'll enlighten me... European? Yeah... American? Ahhhh, I can't see it...

Bobert


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: SINSULL
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 10:56 PM

Martin,
We are in agreement on Jesus, the Messiah and Who Cares if he were black. My point is that many of the Christians who worship him as the Messiah have no use for a black Jewish blue collar worker.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:23 AM

Bobert - I was only funnin' you about the climbing hydrangea (I mean hyacinth). I'll believe it when I see it.

Your 'dialect' does not sound Afro-American to me. You sound more like a a hillbilly. Since this a folk site, I think its perfectly appropriate.

Azizi - Do you write the way you speak or do you clean it up to sound a little closer to standard English? I know that most of the novels written by Afro-American women use the Afro-American speech patterns.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Bobert
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 07:53 AM

d,

Remember "Jack and the Bean Stalk"?

B;)


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 12:24 PM

And of course sinsull you speak for many Christians.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 01:09 PM

No one should be accused of pretending to speak for others if one is offering a personal opinion and observation, which is what I see SINSULL doing.

And BTW I thought it was a POWERFUL and, in some settings, hugely accurate observation, which I will be using with a ministry discussion group next week!

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: CarolC
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

There were also some Jewish slave traders. Christians were not the only people who profited from the slave trade.

I don't have any good answers on the subject of reparations, but I do think we owe it to the people who come from families of exploited peoples to provide them with the best education possible. And that means adequately funding programs like Head Start, and also after-school programs that can help students function more effectively in academic settings.

Many of the children of such families don't get enough parental supervision because their parents have to work more than one job just to survive. These children need more nurturing adult influences in their lives, and if it requres some tax payer money to make it happen, it's much more to the benefit of society as a whole to provide it for these things than it is to use it to kill people in other countries for oil.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Azizi
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:43 PM

Dianavan, see my comments in the brackets to the questions yyou asked me:

"Do you write the way you speak [Yes. Of course-like everyone else- the way I speak depends on the context. I consider posting on Mudcat to be an informal pastime. And my writing reflects that. Sometimes I am more formal than this, and sometimes I am less formal.]

or do you clean it up to sound a little closer to standard English?"
['a little closer to standard English'!??!..Dianavan, because you're cool with me, girlfirend, I'll give you some slack for the implication that my writing might need to be 'cleaned up' or that my writing is only 'close to Standard English'.

LOL!! It's all good.

I think my writing and speech IS standard...True, I like hip-hop slang and other Black folk sayings and I sprinkle some of them in my writing and talking here and there to enhance the flava. But I know that I'm doing it and it's real.. Anyway, it seems to me that using slang and folk sayings is a standard practice in informal converations and writing for some individuals regardless of race or ethnicity].

"I know that most of the novels written by Afro-American women use the Afro-American speech patterns." [I'm not really in to novels as much as I am non-fiction..So I can't confirm that 'most' African American [the current correct referent] use any particular form of African American speech pattern. However, since there are soooo many different African American communities-regions/class/ethnicity etc-
I would rather doubt that all or most African Americans female
{or male} novelists use the same speech patterns for all their characters. That would be stereotypical, and boring wouldn't you think?]

Like I said, Dianavan, you are cool with me. Neither one of us needs to trip on anything written in these particular exchanges. But since you publicly asked, I felt I had to publicly respond.

Peace,
Azizi


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 03:58 PM

Of course there were some Jewish slave traders, CarolC. there were also Hindu, ones, Moslem ones, and probably even some who prayed to the Great god Calu on the planet Mongo.

but I doubt if there's been many Jewish trailer court residents.


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Subject: RE: BS: Bobert's Race Thread
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:20 PM

but I doubt if there's been many Jewish trailer court residents.
I know a few. Can't say I've done analysis statistically on 'em, but Bubba Cohen is okay with me. Pays his taxes, talks good on movies we seen, and is all around a good ol' soul from the navel out in ever direction!

And I've done time in trailers more'n oncet and it never hurt me none. Just gotta be familiar with flame retardant undies.

and if my trailer's a rockin' don't come knockin' or I'll wrap your martin around your gilbert.


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