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BS: This is democracy?

dianavan 30 Mar 05 - 08:52 PM
Once Famous 30 Mar 05 - 08:55 PM
Once Famous 30 Mar 05 - 09:03 PM
Rapparee 30 Mar 05 - 09:11 PM
Once Famous 30 Mar 05 - 09:20 PM
Gurney 31 Mar 05 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 31 Mar 05 - 08:06 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 05 - 05:05 PM
Once Famous 31 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM
The Fooles Troupe 31 Mar 05 - 06:49 PM
Nerd 31 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM
dianavan 31 Mar 05 - 07:50 PM
Greg F. 31 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM
Once Famous 31 Mar 05 - 10:42 PM
Once Famous 31 Mar 05 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 31 Mar 05 - 11:07 PM
Once Famous 31 Mar 05 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 31 Mar 05 - 11:56 PM
Gurney 01 Apr 05 - 01:13 AM
dianavan 01 Apr 05 - 02:19 AM
Metchosin 01 Apr 05 - 03:18 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 01 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM
Once Famous 01 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Apr 05 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 01 Apr 05 - 02:09 PM
dianavan 02 Apr 05 - 12:22 AM
DougR 02 Apr 05 - 01:51 PM
Peace 02 Apr 05 - 01:55 PM
dianavan 02 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM
GUEST 02 Apr 05 - 07:41 PM
Peace 02 Apr 05 - 07:47 PM
dianavan 02 Apr 05 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 02 Apr 05 - 09:55 PM
dianavan 02 Apr 05 - 10:20 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 03 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 03 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM
DougR 03 Apr 05 - 03:09 PM
Peace 03 Apr 05 - 03:37 PM
dianavan 03 Apr 05 - 03:42 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 03 Apr 05 - 04:51 PM
Chief Chaos 03 Apr 05 - 10:32 PM
Greg F. 03 Apr 05 - 10:43 PM
Once Famous 04 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 04 Apr 05 - 07:28 PM
GUEST,Guy Who Thinks 04 Apr 05 - 07:58 PM
dianavan 04 Apr 05 - 08:52 PM
Nerd 05 Apr 05 - 12:05 AM
Little Hawk 05 Apr 05 - 12:18 AM
Wolfgang 05 Apr 05 - 07:13 AM
GUEST,Larry K 05 Apr 05 - 09:45 AM
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Subject: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:52 PM

From BBC: A U.N. report on hunger

"When Saddam Hussein was overthrown, about 4% of Iraqi children under five were going hungry; now that figure has almost doubled to 8%, his report says."

Way to go Bush!!!

This is superior to U.N. oil for food?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:55 PM

Yeah, Hilary can fix it.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:03 PM

BTW, it's not democracy yet you whiner.

But the idea is to get it to be one.

[bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Get a life, dianavan. Or at least get laid.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:11 PM

dianavan, democracy is a political system. It has nothing at all to do with feeding children.

You might have been entitled this thread "This is compassion?"


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:20 PM

Or she could have entitlede the thread,[bleep] (for antisocial behavior) "I just had another orgasm by bashing America."


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Gurney
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:26 AM

Under Saddam, a percentage of children died from poison gas, too. Where do they fit into the equation? Who's statistic was that 4%, anyway? It had to come from pre-invasion Iraqi figures, surely, and who'd believe them?

I've never forgotten that no-one died of lung cancer in France until recently, because the government had a tobacco monopoly. (That's from an Ian Fleming book. Don't know if it is true.)
Lies, bloody lies, statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 08:06 AM

In Germany too, hunger was much worse (for the German children) in the winters of 1945 and 1946 than in the years from 1939 through 1944, and that was without bombs and other attacks. So what are we to infer from such statistics? Democracy feeds worse than a dictatorship?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:05 PM

Very good Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM

anti-social behavior?

How about anti-American behavior? I find that offensive and anti-social.

How about calling it, "democracy according to someone who is whinging about it in Canada?"

Gee, that doesn't sound to anti-social now, does it, pal?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:49 PM

Not I.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM

There is a difference, though, Wolfgang (or actually many differences):

For one, now that the Weapons of Mass Destruction thing turned out to be a red herring, the stated reason why we invaded Iraq was to improve the lives of Iraqis. The Allies did not invade Germany to liberate the Germans from Hitler and make life easier for Germans. Luckily, they helped that along as a long-term goal, but it was not the main point of the invasion.

Second, Food Aid to Germany was a tough sell in those days; there were few if any countries who wanted to help the axis powers too much. I suspect if the US were willing to work internationally with other countries, they could find plenty of donors in the Islamic world. The lack of will to help the Iraqis (who after all did not attack or invade any other country since the 1980s, and when they did it was one small country) is not as understandable, I think, as the lack of will to help Germany, which had practically taken over Europe.

In general, Wolfgang is right, Statistics don't mean anything on their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:50 PM

Gurney - If you want to figure poison gas into the equation you had better find some facts and figures about Fallujah.

Nerd is right. Considering the WMD's were trumped up allegations, how can we justify the rise in starvation? Is democracy worth it to the people of Iran?

BTW - I thought of entitling this thread, What Price Freedom?, but I was sure to get blasted so I used the present title.

I know that it is impossible to equate democracy with starvation but I am still wondering how Martin and others can justify these very solid facts. Does a push for democracy mean that more children must die because the U.S. thinks that Saddam was a bad man with dangerous weapons and that the U.N. oil for food program was corrupt?

Seems to me that war is far more corrupt and the statistics prove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM

I am still wondering how Martin and others can justify these very solid facts

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side. He has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."
... George Orwell


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:42 PM

George Orwell is so long dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:44 PM

Joe, please remove the Guestt post in this thread for being offensive and anti-social and stop picking on me when you do not censor others.

Or do you just censor Jewish guys?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:07 PM

Zzzzzzz.......................................


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:12 PM

[bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Wesley, if you would only get off the weed you wouldn't pass out right in the middle of class?

Jesus is disappointed in you I guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:56 PM

"George Orwell is so long dead."

Moses too.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:13 AM

http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/his/Khaledtext.html

This is what I had in mind, Dianavan.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:19 AM

Thats a very informative article, Gurney. Believe me when I say I have absolutely no doubt that the Kurds were the victims of genocide. I do not see that anyone, including the U.S., is doing anything to ease their suffering and starvation. I believe it was Iran who last went to the aid of the Kurds. The war in Iraq is not and has never been a war to ease the suffering of the Kurds.

If we are talking about starving children - how does trying to create a democracy in Iraq help the starving children? It looks to me as if the starvation rate has doubled.

We are not talking about the number of children who have been killed by collateral damage. We are talking about the availability of food and medicine. If you want to talk about the number of civilian casualties, you'll have to ask the U.S. govt. Last I heard they weren't even counting.

Two wrongs don't make a right.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Metchosin
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:18 AM

don't worry dianavan, the food will be there for some....you know....those deserving souls who can pull their own weight...and who appreciate the trickle down effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM

You're right, of course, Nerd, there are many differences. Those you have mentioned and: One particular reason that the German children were comparably well fed was that the Germans took everything they could get from the occupied countries. They didn't mind starving prisoners and people in occupied countries as long as their own were fed.

What I had in mind was only this: That number mentioned in the first post doesn't mean anything really and is in no menaingful connection to the theme of the thread. That's why I cited another meaningless figure.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM

Pretty stupid thread dianavan.

amazing how you just have to rip America everyday.

glad you are gone and have zero impact.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:27 PM

Surely the fact that in many respects the day to day lives of Iraquis have become far worse, and the profits from the eventual reconstruction of the country will go to the nation that caused the damage ought to cause us to think.

At least, those of us inclined to think, to exclude some obvious candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:09 PM

You're right, of course, Nerd, there are many differences. Those you have mentioned and: One particular reason that the German children were comparably well fed was that the Germans took everything they could get from the occupied countries. They didn't mind starving prisoners and people in occupied countries as long as their own were fed.

What I had in mind was only this: That number mentioned in the first post doesn't mean anything really and is in no menaingful connection to the theme of the thread. That's why I cited another meaningless figure.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 12:22 AM

Wolfgang - Maybe it is meaningless to you because I took it out of context. If you look at the entire U.N. report, it might make more sense. I don't think it is too hard to understand that the rate of starvation among Iraqi children has doubled since Bush decided to liberate them.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 01:51 PM

dianavan: just curious, if the UN report had stated that Iraqi children are better off now than they were when Saddam was in power, would you have started a thread reporting it?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 01:55 PM

You would have, Doug, thus obviating D'van's need to do so. However, y'ain't been startin' too many positive threads lately about how good things are in Iraq. There a reason for that?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

Just to satisfy your curiosity, DougR - I wouldn't have started a thread stating that the U.S. cares about the lives of Iraqi children, because it is so unlikely, nobody would have believed me.

I'm curious - what do you think about the increase in the rate of starvation among Iraqi children? It seems to me that you have nothing to say about it. Does that indicate your approval?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 07:41 PM

I don't understand people who can't separate America from Bush. They are NOT the same thing. I love America, I don't love Bush. What is so hard about that to understand?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 07:47 PM

I love America, too. Not as much as I love Canada, but lots.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 09:45 PM

Guest - It is Bush that is leading the U.S. but it is the apathy of the citizens who are responsible for his power. Obviously, not all U.S. citizens support Bush but it is just as obvious that many do. If you don't support his actions, do something about it. You live in a democracy don't you? Seems to me its pretty easy to love America but not quite as easy to put your money where your mouth is. If you love America you'd better do something, quick, because the America you love is dying.

When those soldiers return from Iraq with visions of starving children in the land they 'liberated', you will all pay the price. It is society who will be living with the guilt of the men and women who can no longer function as productive members of society. It is you who will see your soldiers homeless and starving on the streets.

What goes around, comes around and you had better be prepared for the cost of this war in terms of human lives whether they be American soldiers or Iraqi children. Ultimately, it is America who will pay, not George Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 09:55 PM

The statistic is very questionable because it's hard to imagine how or why it should be true. The Coalition has every reason, pragmatic (or "cynical" if you prefer) as well as humanitarian, to feed Iraqis, including children.

Does your source explain why this should be happening? There was time long ago when the BBC's word, much like CBS's, was usually unimpeachable, but sadly those days are gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 10:20 PM

Read the article yourself or go to the U.N. homepage.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

A search of the U.N. News Centre for "Iraq" + "children" over the past was unhelpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

Sorry. "Past month."


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:09 PM

Uh, dianavan, perhaps you are not aware of it, but your exhortation for citizens of America to do something about Bush ..well, he is serving his second term in office as a result ot winning the last election. He cannot be re-elected. So what are you suggesting that those who do not like Bush do?

In reply to your question: no one in their right mind approves of children going hungry. Why not blame the insurgents for the unrest (read killing) in Iraq instead of Bush (America)? If Iraq was a safe place, the children would have little to fear and plenty to eat.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:37 PM

That's kinda like blaming a rape victim for blinding the attacker, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:42 PM

DougR -
There were no insurgents prior to the U.S. invasion that I know of. The invasion by the U.S. created a war that increased the rate of child starvation. Do you value the attempt to democratize Iraq more than the lives of starving children?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 04:51 PM

To use your analogy, more like blaming a rape victim who blinds the attacker and then goes on to machinegun the kids down the street.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 10:32 PM

Dianavan,

There are some of us that would very much like to do something about bush. He could be impeached, if he and his staff didn't bathe in teflon every night. I bleed every time I hear about this sort of thing. Fortunately we have certain laws in this country that keep us from overthrowing our government every time 50% of us don't like what they've done. Right now it may seem like we're in our darkest hour but imagine how it would be if we were totally ineffective because we kept dissolving our government. We still do a hell of a lot of good in the world. Unfortunatley right now we have an administration that believes that the interests of the US outrank the interests of everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 10:43 PM

Almost- they believe their own PERSONAL interests- in particular financial interests- outrank those of everyone else.

The Spirit That Made America Great!

Greed.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM

Greg F.

do you have any financial interests?

Didn't think so.

want to borrow a dollar?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 07:28 PM

A search for "Iraq" + "starvation" over the past 45 days likewise finds nothing. Could the U.N. have no interest in this story?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 07:58 PM

The story, based on a U.N. report, appears at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4395525.stm

But a much fuller treatment is at

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12923-2005Mar30.html


"[Jean]Ziegler [a U.N. "specialist on hunger"] did not mention the role of Iraq's insurgency in the nutrition problem, something often cited by aid groups." In the words of the BBC, Ziegler simply blames "the war led by coalition forces."

According to the Washington Post story, "The authors of the [source]report in the British-based medical journal The Lancet - researchers from Johns Hopkins University, Columbia University and the Al-Mustansiriya University in Baghdad - conceded their data were of 'limited precision.'"

Ziegler's report is not focused specifically on Iraq but on hunger around the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 08:52 PM

So now that you have read it, do you dispute the fact that the number of Iraqi children that are starving is double what it was before the war?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 12:05 AM

Ooohhh, their data were of "limited precision." There's an admission of guilt. Guess what? ALL study data is of limited precision.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 12:18 AM

All Earthly experience, period, is of limited precision.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 07:13 AM

Of course it is trivially true that all data are of 'limited precision'. Such an information is completely pointless without giving the additional information how much limited.

But that was not what was meant in the context of this study. If I may translate 'limited precision' into the vernacular, it means here that the possible margin of error is so large that the main finding may not be correct after all.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 09:45 AM

Prior to democracy in Iraq, elections took about 3 minutes.   Sadaam got 105% of the vote and his two sons were put in charge.   Very neat.

Democracy is more messy.   People in Iraq need to negotiate power for the first time in their lives.   Prior to the election (58% of the population were willing to risk their lives for democracy) if there was one dollar either you would get the dollar or I would get the dollar.   Now they have to figure out how to split the dollar.   Very different. Look how long it took our founding fathers to creat the constitution and how many fights ensued over it.   Why would we expect it to be easy for Iraq.

The real question is whether people in Iraq are better off today than they were under Sadaam.   In polls over 70% of people in Iraq are optimistic about the future.   Someone asked in a previous thread if democracy was worth it.   Damn right it is.   How many of you would criticize your government if you lived in Iran, China, Syria, Saudi Arabia, or a number of other countries?


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