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BS: This is democracy?

dianavan 30 Mar 05 - 08:52 PM
Once Famous 30 Mar 05 - 08:55 PM
Once Famous 30 Mar 05 - 09:03 PM
Rapparee 30 Mar 05 - 09:11 PM
Once Famous 30 Mar 05 - 09:20 PM
Gurney 31 Mar 05 - 04:26 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 31 Mar 05 - 08:06 AM
GUEST 31 Mar 05 - 05:05 PM
Once Famous 31 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM
The Fooles Troupe 31 Mar 05 - 06:49 PM
Nerd 31 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM
dianavan 31 Mar 05 - 07:50 PM
Greg F. 31 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM
Once Famous 31 Mar 05 - 10:42 PM
Once Famous 31 Mar 05 - 10:44 PM
GUEST,Wesley S 31 Mar 05 - 11:07 PM
Once Famous 31 Mar 05 - 11:12 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 31 Mar 05 - 11:56 PM
Gurney 01 Apr 05 - 01:13 AM
dianavan 01 Apr 05 - 02:19 AM
Metchosin 01 Apr 05 - 03:18 AM
GUEST,Wolfgang 01 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM
Once Famous 01 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM
Richard Bridge 01 Apr 05 - 01:27 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 01 Apr 05 - 02:09 PM
dianavan 02 Apr 05 - 12:22 AM
DougR 02 Apr 05 - 01:51 PM
Peace 02 Apr 05 - 01:55 PM
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Subject: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:52 PM

From BBC: A U.N. report on hunger

"When Saddam Hussein was overthrown, about 4% of Iraqi children under five were going hungry; now that figure has almost doubled to 8%, his report says."

Way to go Bush!!!

This is superior to U.N. oil for food?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 08:55 PM

Yeah, Hilary can fix it.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:03 PM

BTW, it's not democracy yet you whiner.

But the idea is to get it to be one.

[bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Get a life, dianavan. Or at least get laid.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Rapparee
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:11 PM

dianavan, democracy is a political system. It has nothing at all to do with feeding children.

You might have been entitled this thread "This is compassion?"


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 30 Mar 05 - 09:20 PM

Or she could have entitlede the thread,[bleep] (for antisocial behavior) "I just had another orgasm by bashing America."


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Gurney
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 04:26 AM

Under Saddam, a percentage of children died from poison gas, too. Where do they fit into the equation? Who's statistic was that 4%, anyway? It had to come from pre-invasion Iraqi figures, surely, and who'd believe them?

I've never forgotten that no-one died of lung cancer in France until recently, because the government had a tobacco monopoly. (That's from an Ian Fleming book. Don't know if it is true.)
Lies, bloody lies, statistics.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 08:06 AM

In Germany too, hunger was much worse (for the German children) in the winters of 1945 and 1946 than in the years from 1939 through 1944, and that was without bombs and other attacks. So what are we to infer from such statistics? Democracy feeds worse than a dictatorship?

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:05 PM

Very good Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 05:10 PM

anti-social behavior?

How about anti-American behavior? I find that offensive and anti-social.

How about calling it, "democracy according to someone who is whinging about it in Canada?"

Gee, that doesn't sound to anti-social now, does it, pal?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: The Fooles Troupe
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 06:49 PM

Not I.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Nerd
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:19 PM

There is a difference, though, Wolfgang (or actually many differences):

For one, now that the Weapons of Mass Destruction thing turned out to be a red herring, the stated reason why we invaded Iraq was to improve the lives of Iraqis. The Allies did not invade Germany to liberate the Germans from Hitler and make life easier for Germans. Luckily, they helped that along as a long-term goal, but it was not the main point of the invasion.

Second, Food Aid to Germany was a tough sell in those days; there were few if any countries who wanted to help the axis powers too much. I suspect if the US were willing to work internationally with other countries, they could find plenty of donors in the Islamic world. The lack of will to help the Iraqis (who after all did not attack or invade any other country since the 1980s, and when they did it was one small country) is not as understandable, I think, as the lack of will to help Germany, which had practically taken over Europe.

In general, Wolfgang is right, Statistics don't mean anything on their own.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 07:50 PM

Gurney - If you want to figure poison gas into the equation you had better find some facts and figures about Fallujah.

Nerd is right. Considering the WMD's were trumped up allegations, how can we justify the rise in starvation? Is democracy worth it to the people of Iran?

BTW - I thought of entitling this thread, What Price Freedom?, but I was sure to get blasted so I used the present title.

I know that it is impossible to equate democracy with starvation but I am still wondering how Martin and others can justify these very solid facts. Does a push for democracy mean that more children must die because the U.S. thinks that Saddam was a bad man with dangerous weapons and that the U.N. oil for food program was corrupt?

Seems to me that war is far more corrupt and the statistics prove it.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Greg F.
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:39 PM

I am still wondering how Martin and others can justify these very solid facts

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side. He has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them."
... George Orwell


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:42 PM

George Orwell is so long dead.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 10:44 PM

Joe, please remove the Guestt post in this thread for being offensive and anti-social and stop picking on me when you do not censor others.

Or do you just censor Jewish guys?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Wesley S
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:07 PM

Zzzzzzz.......................................


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:12 PM

[bleep] (for antisocial behavior)Wesley, if you would only get off the weed you wouldn't pass out right in the middle of class?

Jesus is disappointed in you I guess.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Clint Keller
Date: 31 Mar 05 - 11:56 PM

"George Orwell is so long dead."

Moses too.

clint


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Gurney
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:13 AM

http://www.xs4all.nl/~tank/kurdish/htdocs/his/Khaledtext.html

This is what I had in mind, Dianavan.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:19 AM

Thats a very informative article, Gurney. Believe me when I say I have absolutely no doubt that the Kurds were the victims of genocide. I do not see that anyone, including the U.S., is doing anything to ease their suffering and starvation. I believe it was Iran who last went to the aid of the Kurds. The war in Iraq is not and has never been a war to ease the suffering of the Kurds.

If we are talking about starving children - how does trying to create a democracy in Iraq help the starving children? It looks to me as if the starvation rate has doubled.

We are not talking about the number of children who have been killed by collateral damage. We are talking about the availability of food and medicine. If you want to talk about the number of civilian casualties, you'll have to ask the U.S. govt. Last I heard they weren't even counting.

Two wrongs don't make a right.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Metchosin
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 03:18 AM

don't worry dianavan, the food will be there for some....you know....those deserving souls who can pull their own weight...and who appreciate the trickle down effect.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM

You're right, of course, Nerd, there are many differences. Those you have mentioned and: One particular reason that the German children were comparably well fed was that the Germans took everything they could get from the occupied countries. They didn't mind starving prisoners and people in occupied countries as long as their own were fed.

What I had in mind was only this: That number mentioned in the first post doesn't mean anything really and is in no menaingful connection to the theme of the thread. That's why I cited another meaningless figure.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 11:42 AM

Pretty stupid thread dianavan.

amazing how you just have to rip America everyday.

glad you are gone and have zero impact.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 01:27 PM

Surely the fact that in many respects the day to day lives of Iraquis have become far worse, and the profits from the eventual reconstruction of the country will go to the nation that caused the damage ought to cause us to think.

At least, those of us inclined to think, to exclude some obvious candidates.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Wolfgang
Date: 01 Apr 05 - 02:09 PM

You're right, of course, Nerd, there are many differences. Those you have mentioned and: One particular reason that the German children were comparably well fed was that the Germans took everything they could get from the occupied countries. They didn't mind starving prisoners and people in occupied countries as long as their own were fed.

What I had in mind was only this: That number mentioned in the first post doesn't mean anything really and is in no menaingful connection to the theme of the thread. That's why I cited another meaningless figure.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 12:22 AM

Wolfgang - Maybe it is meaningless to you because I took it out of context. If you look at the entire U.N. report, it might make more sense. I don't think it is too hard to understand that the rate of starvation among Iraqi children has doubled since Bush decided to liberate them.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 01:51 PM

dianavan: just curious, if the UN report had stated that Iraqi children are better off now than they were when Saddam was in power, would you have started a thread reporting it?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 01:55 PM

You would have, Doug, thus obviating D'van's need to do so. However, y'ain't been startin' too many positive threads lately about how good things are in Iraq. There a reason for that?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 02:01 PM

Just to satisfy your curiosity, DougR - I wouldn't have started a thread stating that the U.S. cares about the lives of Iraqi children, because it is so unlikely, nobody would have believed me.

I'm curious - what do you think about the increase in the rate of starvation among Iraqi children? It seems to me that you have nothing to say about it. Does that indicate your approval?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 07:41 PM

I don't understand people who can't separate America from Bush. They are NOT the same thing. I love America, I don't love Bush. What is so hard about that to understand?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 07:47 PM

I love America, too. Not as much as I love Canada, but lots.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 09:45 PM

Guest - It is Bush that is leading the U.S. but it is the apathy of the citizens who are responsible for his power. Obviously, not all U.S. citizens support Bush but it is just as obvious that many do. If you don't support his actions, do something about it. You live in a democracy don't you? Seems to me its pretty easy to love America but not quite as easy to put your money where your mouth is. If you love America you'd better do something, quick, because the America you love is dying.

When those soldiers return from Iraq with visions of starving children in the land they 'liberated', you will all pay the price. It is society who will be living with the guilt of the men and women who can no longer function as productive members of society. It is you who will see your soldiers homeless and starving on the streets.

What goes around, comes around and you had better be prepared for the cost of this war in terms of human lives whether they be American soldiers or Iraqi children. Ultimately, it is America who will pay, not George Bush.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 09:55 PM

The statistic is very questionable because it's hard to imagine how or why it should be true. The Coalition has every reason, pragmatic (or "cynical" if you prefer) as well as humanitarian, to feed Iraqis, including children.

Does your source explain why this should be happening? There was time long ago when the BBC's word, much like CBS's, was usually unimpeachable, but sadly those days are gone.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 02 Apr 05 - 10:20 PM

Read the article yourself or go to the U.N. homepage.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

A search of the U.N. News Centre for "Iraq" + "children" over the past was unhelpful.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 02:33 PM

Sorry. "Past month."


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:09 PM

Uh, dianavan, perhaps you are not aware of it, but your exhortation for citizens of America to do something about Bush ..well, he is serving his second term in office as a result ot winning the last election. He cannot be re-elected. So what are you suggesting that those who do not like Bush do?

In reply to your question: no one in their right mind approves of children going hungry. Why not blame the insurgents for the unrest (read killing) in Iraq instead of Bush (America)? If Iraq was a safe place, the children would have little to fear and plenty to eat.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:37 PM

That's kinda like blaming a rape victim for blinding the attacker, IMO.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 03:42 PM

DougR -
There were no insurgents prior to the U.S. invasion that I know of. The invasion by the U.S. created a war that increased the rate of child starvation. Do you value the attempt to democratize Iraq more than the lives of starving children?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 04:51 PM

To use your analogy, more like blaming a rape victim who blinds the attacker and then goes on to machinegun the kids down the street.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Chief Chaos
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 10:32 PM

Dianavan,

There are some of us that would very much like to do something about bush. He could be impeached, if he and his staff didn't bathe in teflon every night. I bleed every time I hear about this sort of thing. Fortunately we have certain laws in this country that keep us from overthrowing our government every time 50% of us don't like what they've done. Right now it may seem like we're in our darkest hour but imagine how it would be if we were totally ineffective because we kept dissolving our government. We still do a hell of a lot of good in the world. Unfortunatley right now we have an administration that believes that the interests of the US outrank the interests of everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Greg F.
Date: 03 Apr 05 - 10:43 PM

Almost- they believe their own PERSONAL interests- in particular financial interests- outrank those of everyone else.

The Spirit That Made America Great!

Greed.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 05:36 PM

Greg F.

do you have any financial interests?

Didn't think so.

want to borrow a dollar?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 07:28 PM

A search for "Iraq" + "starvation" over the past 45 days likewise finds nothing. Could the U.N. have no interest in this story?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 07:58 PM

The story, based on a U.N. report, appears at

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4395525.stm

But a much fuller treatment is at

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A12923-2005Mar30.html


"[Jean]Ziegler [a U.N. "specialist on hunger"] did not mention the role of Iraq's insurgency in the nutrition problem, something often cited by aid groups." In the words of the BBC, Ziegler simply blames "the war led by coalition forces."

According to the Washington Post story, "The authors of the [source]report in the British-based medical journal The Lancet - researchers from Johns Hopkins University, Columbia University and the Al-Mustansiriya University in Baghdad - conceded their data were of 'limited precision.'"

Ziegler's report is not focused specifically on Iraq but on hunger around the world.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 04 Apr 05 - 08:52 PM

So now that you have read it, do you dispute the fact that the number of Iraqi children that are starving is double what it was before the war?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Nerd
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 12:05 AM

Ooohhh, their data were of "limited precision." There's an admission of guilt. Guess what? ALL study data is of limited precision.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 12:18 AM

All Earthly experience, period, is of limited precision.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 07:13 AM

Of course it is trivially true that all data are of 'limited precision'. Such an information is completely pointless without giving the additional information how much limited.

But that was not what was meant in the context of this study. If I may translate 'limited precision' into the vernacular, it means here that the possible margin of error is so large that the main finding may not be correct after all.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Larry K
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 09:45 AM

Prior to democracy in Iraq, elections took about 3 minutes.   Sadaam got 105% of the vote and his two sons were put in charge.   Very neat.

Democracy is more messy.   People in Iraq need to negotiate power for the first time in their lives.   Prior to the election (58% of the population were willing to risk their lives for democracy) if there was one dollar either you would get the dollar or I would get the dollar.   Now they have to figure out how to split the dollar.   Very different. Look how long it took our founding fathers to creat the constitution and how many fights ensued over it.   Why would we expect it to be easy for Iraq.

The real question is whether people in Iraq are better off today than they were under Sadaam.   In polls over 70% of people in Iraq are optimistic about the future.   Someone asked in a previous thread if democracy was worth it.   Damn right it is.   How many of you would criticize your government if you lived in Iran, China, Syria, Saudi Arabia, or a number of other countries?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Old Guy
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 10:39 AM

This must be a democracy because blind idiots are allowed vent their warped ideas.

Spew on.

Old Guy


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 10:52 AM

As Wolfgang observes, when professional researchers go out of their way to warn that "the data is of limited precision," they certainly don't mean to imply "like everything else." They mean they don't have much confidence in it themselves. This is especially true wen they talk about "limited precision" without giving an actual statistical "margin of error," which is usually only a few percentage points. (If a real "margin of error" was reported, the above accounts make no mention of it.)

Yers, I am still skeptical of the reported findings. The news accounts are at least at third hand (original source to named researchers to Ziegler to UN site or Washington Post to us). We do not yet know the the basis of the information (which could simply be unanalyzed or unsourced press reports from, say, Algerian TV), and it is still not clear why the reported phenomenon, even if true, should be occurring at all.

I see no adequate basis, therefore, for the bland statement that the Coalition presence in Iraq is causing children to starve.

By the way, it would be equally insupportable, on the basis of the little we know, to say that starvation in Iraq would be far worse without the availability of Coalition assistance.

But that *could* be the truth, for all we know.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 02:32 PM

I also agree with Gurney's post. The original assertion that 4% of Iraqi children were starving (as a result of US actions in particular) seems to be of unknown origin, unless it came from the Hussein government itself.

If either is the case, the asserted figure will have credibility only for those who are ready to believe it regardless.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 03:00 PM

Dianavan: do I value the effort to democratize above the needs of starving children? As in any war, innocent people suffer. Before the war in Iraq is over, there will be many more. If the insurgents were not trying to prevent democratization, which plays hell with the infrastructure in that country, there would be no starving children.

IMO there is no way to place a price on what democratization in Iraq, and the rest of that region, will mean to the whole world. The trouble spots in the world are not democracies, they are countries governed by tyrants like Saddam.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 03:17 PM

"...countries governed by tyrants like Saddam."

Or like Musharaf (U.S. Ally)

Or like the Saudi Royal Family (U.S. Ally)

Or like Pinochet (former U.S. Ally)

Or like Marcos, the Shah of Iran, Pol Pot, the Nicaraguan Contras ...... (former U.S. Allies)

Or like ____________ (fill in any one of dozens of tyrannical regimes the U.S. presently supports)

Or even like Saddam himself! (former U.S. Ally)


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 06:29 PM

Your point being?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 06:38 PM

I wasn't aware that Saddam Hussein was still in charge.

Any news about him, BTW?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Greg F.
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 10:28 PM

ONE point might be that the U.S. (and Douggie, too!) has one hell of a nerve pontificating about "democratization" and the price that other peoples should be willing to pay for it.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 05 Apr 05 - 10:41 PM

I'm pretty sure that "limited precision" is largely due to the fact that the original figures were compiled while Saddam (not a very good statistician) was in power and the present figures were derived during the occupation. My guess is that the U.N. report on hunger is probably the best estimate that we have. Does anyone have any other figures about starvation rates amongst Iraqi children?

DougR - You said, "If the insurgents were not trying to prevent democratization, which plays hell with the infrastructure in that country, there would be no starving children." Are you sure?

If there was no U.S. military there would be no insurgency.

Larry K - You said, "Prior to the election (58% of the population were willing to risk their lives for democracy)..." Where did you get that figure? You also said, "In polls over 70% of people in Iraq are optimistic about the future." What polls?

Guest, Guy - Please tell me how the coalition is assisting the starving children of Iraq.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Little Hawk
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 01:36 AM

Blind idiots vent their ideas in dictatorships too, Old Guy. :-) Just listen to the government announcements on a regular basis in any dictatorship...or for that matter, most democracies too.

What you seem to be complaining about is when the idiocy in question is a different kind of idiocy from your favorite variety of idiocy.

If I may quote Bob Dylan, "We're idiots, babe! It's a wonder we can even feed ourselves." You could say that about most people in most societies and be at least half right half the time, in my opinion. I look back at the stuff my and my young friends used to say when I was in my teens or twenties. Much of it was idiocy. We thought the older people were idiots. They thought we were idiots. The scary part is, we were probably ALL at least half right about that! Maybe more so.

Be more tolerant of other idiots. They may have far more in common with you than you realize.

Besides, without idiots to propose ideas different from the idiotic ideas of the people on the opposite side of any given dispute, we wouldn't be able to decide who to vote for at election time, because everyone would be getting along too well.

Can't have that!!!! It would destroy the whole political system. Be thankful that there are other idiots willing to oppose your chosen brand of idiocy, and thereby give it meaning in a ruthlessly competitive system.

Idiocy is the hallmark of partisanship! Do not reject it out of hand, lest you destroy the very foundation on which you stand.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 01:58 AM

Thanks, LH - That says it all.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 02:23 AM

Democracy--some great thoughts.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 02:53 AM

Great link brucie. Definitely food for thought.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 02:55 PM

You might start your quest for a different point of view here,

http://www.usaid.gov/iraq/accomplishments/health.html

Probably the level of accomplishment is somewhat exaggerated, but I'd still prefer USAID over sources unknown and/or the former Baathist information ministry.

And if everything we read is just propaganda anyway, we may as well close this thread now.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Greg F.
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 06:45 PM

So you think Bush's propaganda agency - the Bush of WMD's,of Nook-yew-ler capability, of the Swift Boat Liars, of the Social Security "Crisis" etc. etc. etc, is more truthful than the Baathist propaganda machine...... Jesus, that's a tough call ...... more of a primo inter pares kinda thing.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 07:00 PM

primo inter pares

That sounds like a delicate yet robust pasta sauce.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 08:13 PM

Where'd you get the idea that USAID made the claim that Iraq had WMDs?

Allow me to suggest that those who assert a basic equivalence between Bush and Hussein, or between USAID and the Baath Party, or that the pronunciation of the word "nuclear" is a key to character, make unpersuasive judges of either tyranny or democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 06 Apr 05 - 11:07 PM

I don't think you can call the U.N. report sources unknown, Guy, but for the record, here's the latest from BBC:

"US and UK officials have denied reports that increasing numbers of children in Iraq are facing chronic food shortages and malnourishment.
A UN report last week said malnutrition in under-fives had almost doubled since the US-led invasion of 2003."

Of course the US and Uk would deny this scathing report. They have to justify their invasion, don't they? So far, none of their claims have been truthful. Why should we believe them now?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Greg F.
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:23 AM

It is, Bruce- you want to serve it with a nice Barolo.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 12:34 PM

website address says it all really    "www.usaid.gov".

More impartial than the UN? I think not.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Guy Who Thinks
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 12:55 PM

Which strikes you as more likely? That the U.N. report cincerning world hunger is mistaken in this case or that the report of USAID is a tissue of easily exposable lies?

Remember that at least one of Ziegler's acknowledged sources says that the data "lacks precision" and that the U.S./U.K.-led coalition has every reason to feed as many Iraqis as possible, as well as the means to do it.

Under those circumstances, why on earth would we stand by and let people starve while spending billions to secure their goodwill?

The election of a Kurdish interim President in Iraq is a hopeful sign. Limited, but still hopeful.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Donuel
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 01:32 PM

Our BILL OF RIGHTS preserves of Democracy

However there have been some slight changes recently...


For easy reference, I include the original wording of each amendment in parentheses, following each proposed new amendment.

Amendment I

Congress shall subjugate all forms of religious expression to the will of the State, particularly Christianity, and draw an absolute wall between personal religious beliefs and any and all public expressions thereof. All manner of speech is to be carefully monitored, filtered and censored to ensure that nothing offensive to the ruling class is communicated to or from any individual or form of media. The people will be allowed to assemble only when and where the State directs. Government at all levels will be immune to petitions and lawsuits of any sort brought by citizens.

(Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.)

Amendment II

Citizen militias are forbidden. The carrying of small arms, when permitted, will be closely regulated by the State, with licensing and registration of all firearms required. At no time shall any weapon of military significance be possessed by citizens except when citizens are pressed into the service of America's standing armed forces.

(A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed.)

Amendment III

By Executive Order, Code Red, a declaration of martial law or any other enforcement of emminent domain, any toxin, poison , virus or hazardous biological agent including vaccines may be dispersed in around or below the home of Americans. Compensation for loss of life or property will be limited to $250,000.

(No soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.)

Amendment IV

Citizens may be stopped at any time and any place and be required to produce identification and a justification for their presence. Citizens and their possessions, including vehicles and houses, may be searched at any time and in any manner, including secretly, with or without justification and without warrants. A right to privacy is retained exclusively to the State and its agents and in no case possessed by any private citizen.

(The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.)

Amendment V

Citizens may be held indefinitely, with or without charges being made, upon the direction of government officials. Citizens may be tried repeatedly for the same offense, both by differing jurisdictions and by way of differing charges, both simultaneously and at different times and places. Citizens may be required to testify against themselves, save only in specified circumstances and during actual public trials. The property of any citizen may be seized upon the direction of government officials, with no review by any tribunal and with or without compensation.

(No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a grand jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the militia, when in actual service in time of war or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.)

Amendment VI

At no time shall any citizen accused of a criminal offense be entitled to a hearing or a trial, either public or private, except when government officials shall so determine. At trial, no citizen shall be entitled to a jury, except when allowed by the judge presiding. Citizens may be held indefinitely without charges and without being informed of the nature and charge, if any, of accusations against themselves. Citizens shall have no right to confront witnesses against themselves or to compel the attendance of witnesses in their favor. When allowed by government officials to retain counsel, citizens may hire only certain preapproved attorneys and, when allowed by the presiding judge, be appointed only attorneys beholden to the State.

(In all criminal prosecutions, the accused shall enjoy the right to a speedy and public trial, by an impartial jury of the state and district wherein the crime shall have been committed, which district shall have been previously ascertained by law, and to be informed of the nature and cause of the accusation; to be confronted with the witnesses against him; to have compulsory process for obtaining witnesses in his favor, and to have the assistance of counsel for his defense.)

Amendment VII

In no suits at common law, civil or otherwise, shall any party be entitled to a jury, except as allowed by the judge presiding. When allowed, juries may determine only those facts allowed them by the judge, who, in every case, shall be the sole arbiter of applicable law. All facts determined by juries may be rejected or affirmed, either by the judge presiding or upon appeal.

(In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.)

Amendment VIII

Bail of any amount may be prescribed and may be denied altogether. Fines may be imposed and punishments inflicted at the direction of government officials, legislatures and judges presiding over trials. No fine or punishment so imposed shall be deemed excessive, cruel or unusual. Certain citizens, designated by government officials and legislatures, may summarily be executed without formal proceeding, by way of either abortion or euthanasia. Citizens placed in prisons and jails may not be protected from other inmates.

(Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted.)

Amendment IX

The enumeration in the Constitution of certain rights shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the government.

(The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.)

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the states by the Constitution, nor granted to citizens, are reserved to the Federal government.

(The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.)















Or, perhaps this would be a good time for you to reread that excerpt from the Declaration of Independence provided at the outset of this article. In fact, this would be a good time to reread all of the Declaration, not to mention the entirety of the U.S. Constitution.

New America. An idea whose time is now.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 06:53 PM

Dinavan: a question for you. Do you think that if the U. S. and other countries able and willing were to solve the hungry children problem that terrorism would go away and bother us no more?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 07:11 PM

Pardon me for butting in: It's not hard to get hungry people to do things if you feed 'em. Well-fed people seldom rebel.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 07 Apr 05 - 10:08 PM

LOL

I can just imagine you as a student in high school.

LOLOL


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 01:37 AM

So, brucie, we set up a chow line in Iraq, and our troubles, and the troubles of the Iraqi people are over? All we have to do is feed the terrorists, and all the children in Iraq, and it's all over? The troops can come home? Piece of cake!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 03:30 AM

I have a question for you DougR - Were there more starving children in Iraq, before or after the war on terrorism?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,gheh
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:12 PM

Take any group of people who live in mutual awareness of each other, sharing a common space, and see that things are set up so a few eat well, a few more eat not too well, and a good many others starve. Watch what happens...

Violence, that's what.

Yes, to put it very simply, if everyone in the world had enough food and the other basic necessities of life, you would not have terrorism...UNLESS it was launched by someone powerful who wanted to get things back to the barbaric way they used to be in the "good old days" (our days) when a lot of people starved. He would want to do that so that he could divide and conquer, and have way MORE than anyone could ever need. Some people are like that. They call it "being a winner". They are psychologically very ill...like Al Capone was, for example. Or Hitler.

World poverty, however, is not the sole responsibility of the USA to fix. It's everyone's responsibility to some extent.

What the USA is at fault for in Iraq is launching a needless and unprovoked war for its own material gain.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,Noddy
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:27 PM

So vapid, so predictable, so lame.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 05:40 PM

Doug,

What I said is that people who eat regularly don't have as much to revolt about as people who don't. Dianavan's question to you is a good one. I will ask the same. Were there more starving kids in Iraq before or after the US invasion?

Bruce


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:07 PM

Dianavan hasn't addressed my question yet brucie, but according to the figures she supplied, there are more now. Personally, I don't know.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 08 Apr 05 - 08:34 PM

OK. Thanks, Doug.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 12:32 AM

Dianavan: your reply?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:11 PM

Hello, dianavan, are you still among us?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:33 PM

No, she quit and is out jamming a hot dog in her face, sideways.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:05 PM

DougR - I see no evidence that terrorism creates starvation. I do see that war creates starvation among children.

I don't like terrorism any more than you do but I would like to think that while the U.S. is waging war, they are also transporting food to hungry children. I have seen no evidence of this. In fact the starvation rate has increased.

While you and I have very little to say about terrorist activities, we do have something to say about the conduct of elected governments. Seems to me that it is the responsibility of the U.S. government to insure that innocent children (not terrorists) are fed.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:44 PM

dianavan,

You seem to be missing some news. The US troops that are bring food into the various parts of Iraq are the ones whom the terrorists are specifically targeting. This has been the state of affairs for over a year now. Care to criticise the terrorists, now?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 09:54 PM

oh, btw- the terrorist actions in targeting the relief supplies for civlians is in direct violation of the Geneva Conventions.... In case you care.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 10:00 PM

children

Parties to a conflict must respect children, provide them with any care or aid they require, and protect them from any form of indecent assault (Protocol I, Art. 77, Sec. 1).

Children under 15 must not participate in hostilities and must not be recruited into the armed forces. (Protocol I, Art. 77, Sec. 2; Protocol II, Art. 4, Sec. 3C)

Those children who do participate in hostilities do not lose their protections under the Geneva Conventions, including the right to an education. (Protocol II, Art. 4, Sec. 3d)

Children who have committed an offense related to the armed conflict before their 18th birthday cannot be subject to the death penalty. (Protocol I, Art. 77, Sec. 5)

If arrested, detained or interned, children must be held in separate quarters from adults, unless they are with their families. (Protocol I, Art. 77, Sec. 4)

Warring parties must try to make local agreements to allow the removal of children from besieged or encircled areas. (Convention IV, Art. 17)

Warring parties must allow the free passage of medicine, food and clothing intended for children under 15. (Convention IV, Art. 23)

Warring parties must ensure that orphans or lost children are not left alone, and that they are taken care of and allowed to practice their religion and pursue their education in their cultural tradition if possible. (Convention IV, Art. 24)

Mothers with dependent infants should not be, if at all possible, sentenced to the death penalty for an offense related to the armed conflict, and such sentences must not be carried out. (Protocol I, Art. 76, Sec. 3)

http://www.genevaconventions.org/


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 11:34 PM

Dianavan: your last post about the U. S. willingness to feed starving children only proves to me what I suspected. You are so anti-American that you have no idea what you are raving about. Check out any major disaster in modern history and see who are the major contributors to those in need. I think you will find the U. S. close to the top in support. You might want to begin with U. S. support of Tsumani victims.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 03:59 PM

Your right, Doug.

She absolutely hates this country, is a complete ex-patriot, and looks for ways everyday to vent her anger at it here and probably other places, also.

I'm glad that she quit being an American.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Apr 05 - 10:56 PM

Actually, being an American is my birthright, Martin. I am being a good American by exposing tyranny.

I would like to see some evidence that the insurgents are "specifically targetting" convoys of food. I have seen no evidence of this. Please provide a reputable source.

I must have hit a nerve if it takes all three of you to try to intimidate me.

Doug - The U.S. should be donating as much or more than other countries because they are one of the richest countries in the world. Are you talking about private donations or govt. donations? I'd like to see that list.

Does it include govt. provision of food and transport to the starving children of Iraq? Since they are the invading force over there, don't you think they have some responsibility for providing food to the innocent civilians?

Just for the record - People who condone the actions of the present U.S. administration are the ones engaging in unamerican activities. An American cherishes the Constitution and the Bill of Rights as the cornerstones of democracy. An American wants to see fair and open elections. An American makes sure that there is equal opportunity for all of its citizens. An American believes in separation of church and state. An American has the right to worship as they say fit. An American doesn't have to live in America.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 01:47 AM

Well, Martin, I hope that she is happy in the country of her choice. I don't wish to be unkind, but my feeling is if she fled this country because of dissatisfaction with the government, Democrat or Republican, I say good riddance.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 04:44 AM

Well, America's loss is Canada's gain. Send more, SVP.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Donuel
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 11:00 AM

Now This Is Democracy... http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0316-08.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:46 PM

You didn't hit a nerve, dianavan. As doug R said, good riddance.

Occassionally you find a nut case who leaves the U.S. Everyday, there are many more who kiss the ground here when they arrive.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: mg
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:02 AM

You don't see that terrorism creates starvation? But war does?

Terrorism unchecked ...is a war with only one side. At least in a war someone is trying to stop them.

How can food be grown where there is terrorism? As in parts of Africa?

How can it be transported? The roads will be blown up etc.

The terrorists will implant themselves in orphanages and dare you to strike them.

The water will be poisoned. They throw bodies down wells etc.

The populace is too shellshocked to do daily activities like cooking, watching their children etc. sometimes. All sorts of pathologies ensue..drug and alcohol use, domestic violence..

Holy Heart of Mary...are we blatently apologizing for the terrorists these days? mg


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:17 AM

Mary Garvey: it would appear so.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:35 AM

I hate moving political threads up the page , but I cant resist . . .


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Leadfingers
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:35 AM

The Hundredth Post !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Wolfgang
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 08:48 AM

Democracy seems to be creeping forward in Iraq, if not in the wider Arab world (from the Guardian)

...one of several recent signs that US-driven attempts to cultivate democracy in Iraq may be approaching a fork in the road, if not quite a turning point.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: robomatic
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 09:00 AM

Dianavan you wrote:
There were no insurgents prior to the U.S. invasion that I know of. The invasion by the U.S. created a war that increased the rate of child starvation. Do you value the attempt to democratize Iraq more than the lives of starving children?

I take it you prefer well fed slaves to hungry freedmen?

You are taking a situation in a state of rapid flux and trying to make a point about an overall situation. The facts as I have them are that the current occupation and the Iraqi government are working to repair and install a crimiinally negligent infrastructure, and the current insurgency is doing everything to prevent and reverse this. The reason there were no insurgents prior to the US invasion is that the insurgents were running the country.

You do seem to be not so much interested in the welfare of the Iraqis as in slamming US efforts whatever they be. You remind me of Reverend Lovejoy's wife whose stock refrain in any situation is: "What about the children" thus making them your debating tool rather than a real concern. If you had a real concern you would note the robust condition of the Kurds and the improved lot of the Shiites, both of whom were repressed as children, as men, as women. The Sunnis have a tougher row to hoe, as they were as a group over-entitled under the Saddam regime, and they make up a greater portion of the insurgency.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 12:03 PM

Robo just wrote above of dianavan:

"You do seem to be not so much interested in the welfare of the Iraqis as in slamming US efforts whatever they be"

Bullseye!
Ringer!
Home Run!
Touchdown!
3-pointer!
Goaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaallllllllllllllllllllllll!


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 01:07 PM

Yep, Martin, I believe he nailed dianavan.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:44 PM

Wasn't hard to do.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:53 PM

robomatic - You said, "The reason there were no insurgents prior to the US invasion is that the insurgents were running the country." Yes, I know that. I also know that they were puppets of the U.S. govt. I also know that the terrorist training camps (including Osama's) were originally funded by the U.S. govt.

The U.S. has been creating alot of problems in the middle east for a very long time. Its called meddling. I blame them for the turmoil and for the fact that the starvation rate of children in Iraq has increased since the occupation.

Mary Garvey - I said, "I would like to see some evidence that the insurgents are "specifically targetting" convoys of food. I have seen no evidence of this. Please provide a reputable source."

There would be no insurgency if there was no occupation. Its time for the U.S. to either help the starving or get out.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,mg
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:53 AM

That is just not true. It is a sweet sentiment but it is just not how the world works. If there were no occupation, there would be all sorts of bad nasties jockeying for power, and there would be 1,000 times the terrorism that there is now. We are doing something for the starving children..we are putting our bodies between them and the bullets that would take them out. We are killing and capturing the bad guys so that the good guys can grow the food, drive the food on safe roads, cook the food in homes or roadside stands etc. They would not be alive long enough to starve if we weren't there. mg


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 12:56 AM

Thats just plain ridiculous.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:08 PM

"Yes, I know that. I also know they (the insurgents) were puppets of the U. S. government". - dianavan.

Now THAT statement is what I would call ridiculous.

You failed to mention, also dianavan, the when the U. S. aided Osama it was in Afghanstan when the insurgents were fighting Russians.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 14 Apr 05 - 05:46 PM

She failed to mention that her breakfast this morning was insurgent.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 02:13 AM

...and you failed to mention that for breakfast this morning you ate shit.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: robomatic
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:41 PM

OKAY! THIS IS DEMOCRACY!


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:51 PM

LOL, dianavan!

Joe, please see dianavan's personal attack and kindly bleep it out as anti-social.

We shouldn't have to put up with that crap here!

What a riot.
    Sorry, Martin, in the entire history of Mudcat, only YOU have earned the honor of full review of all your posts. Now you have to live with your history.
    Dianavan can be obnoxious, but she hasn't crossed the line.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 05:56 PM

"Democracy is a political system. It has nothing at all to do with feeding children."

Any political system that "has nothing at all to do with feeding children" is pretty suspect.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 15 Apr 05 - 10:32 PM

Sorry, Martin, if I offended you.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 12:21 PM

I do not favour the Sunnis over the Shiites or even the Kurds for that matter. I think it is wrong for the U.S. to destroy a country and the infrastructure in the name of democracy. I am also alarmed that the rate of starvation has increased.

Mary, you have stated that the insurgents have been targetting convoys of food. Please provide evidence for this statement. You also seem to believe that if the children weren't starving they'd be dead. I also see no evidence of that. The statements you are making are based on emotion and fed by propaganda.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:38 PM

Wouldn't want to be influenced by progaganda would we dianavan? That's why we should only read the New York Times and THe Los Angeles Times in the U. S. and those who live in GB should only read The Guardian. In the U. S., where we have lots of TV choices, we should only watch CNN and the national news networks. That way we will never be exposed to propaganda.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 03:59 PM

If you have sources, cite them. I will read them.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 08:03 PM

Would you accept any sources offered dianavan?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: mg
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 09:37 PM

a. I don't think I said so. I did say they would blow up the roads, which they will if they can.
b. I don't jump just because someone tells me to.

mg


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 16 Apr 05 - 10:01 PM

I will read all sources but it doesn't mean I will believe them.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:50 PM

Joe, I'm deeply honored.

I love history.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 01:51 PM

And joe, I'll remember your double standard.

You probably ate shit for breakfast, also.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 02:54 PM

So then, dianavan, you will accept "acceptable" sources. I assume those that do not support your point of view would not be acceptable. Right?

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 04:28 PM

Exactly, Doug R.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 08:43 PM

Doug - I don't care if they support my point of view or not I just want to know if you (or Mary Garvey) have any source for your information or if you're just talking off the top your head.

Since neither you nor Mary seem to have anything to offer in the way of sources, I can only assume that you are making wild assumptions based on Nationalistic pride, much like the Germans of Nazi Germany.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 09:41 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20050418/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq_activist_killed


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 17 Apr 05 - 10:14 PM

Is nationalistic pride strictly a German Nazi thing? How stupid.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:19 AM

bb - I didn't read that she was targetted because she was counting casualties. I believe the Americans would call this collateral damage.

That article does not provide a source for the outlandish statement that insurgents have been targetting convoys of food.

In fact, it was U.S. troops that have blocked access to hospitals, roads and markets. In addition, the infrastructure has been demolished by the U.S. How are the Iraqis expected to overcome this and feed their children?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 01:30 AM

dianavan: I'm sure your are right. The insurgents are probably providing armed escorts to ensure that the needy get the aid the coalition forces are providing. Right.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 03:11 AM

I didn't say that Doug. You are putting words in my mouth and making wild assumptions.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 10:03 AM

Dianavan,
I have just read through the thread again from start to finish and notice that no-one has anywhere come up with anything to show that your initial statement was untrue.

The whole thread is a processon of bullying "might is right" invective and anyone who challenges the mighty is an apologist for terorism.

I think it may have been a mistake though to think that the obliteration of Iraq had anything to do with democracy. There are any number of dictatorships and totalitarian states around the world whose people would have been happier for intervention than yhe people of Iraq are proving to be.

Nor was it about terrorism. On 9/11 Americans were killed and as a result someone had to pay. America could not strike at the home of the terrorists or their financial backers because they were our oil rich friends in Saudia Arabia, which may lack democracy and keep its foreign workforce as virtual slaves but which shares a common financial interest, so a bogeyman had to be identified.

Government lies were put out; That Iraq could strike at Europe with nuclear warheads within 45 minutes, that the chemical weapons we had sold them in order to fight our political oponents in Iran still existed though we knew them to have ben destroyed years ago, that Iraq was responsible for 9/11, that we were seeking a peaceful verification on WMD months after the decision to assault Iraq had been taken.

It would seem to me quite simple really; if we believed in Global Democracy we would strengthen the hand of the UN and not undermine it. Democracy is supposed to be a system which stops the interests of the strongest or most violent overwhelming everyone else.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: robomatic
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 12:59 PM

GUEST with no name:

You are missing the point. Without giving details from the report I find it hard to believe. As I stated earlier, there has to be a breakdown of who is starving. I believe that Kurds for example are not. The main Iraq on Iraqi violence is mostly by Sunni/ Baathist forces on any government body and on Shiite civilians. But the main point is why this should relate to democracy. This is a case of picking something statistical while it is in the midst of change, and using it to slam something political (also in the midst of change).
It is like saying "Besides THAT, Mrs. Lincoln, how did you enjoy the play?"


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:05 PM

On the contrary, guest with no name, is bang on the point.

The war on Iraq, was never about installing democracy there, it was because of trumped up propaganda about wmds, and the constant repetetion of Iraq Saddam 9/11 Alqaeda in one sentence by the neocons until more than 50% of Americans believed there was a connection. - the reasons later shifted to installing democracy, doing the moral thing by removing a tyrant etc. when wmds were obviously not found, and when (even as GWBush admitted there was no known connection between Hussein and AlQaeda.

If installing democracy was the question, why not, Zimbabwe, or North Korea (which has wmd?s), Burma or ...the list goes on.

In many ways GW Bush is more dangerous than Hussein ever was (not a minority view as more than 50% of Europeans believed in a recent survey). He is more dangerous than Saddam could be because he and the NEoCons want to establish Pax Americana, undermine the concept of international law and dialogue in the UN, and go back to the Law of the Jungle, (essentially what we had prior to WWII).

Its silly of course to assume that a nation that has 4% of the worlds population and 20% (rapidly declining) of the world economy can hope to establish itself as the world leader and policeman. (It was a total surprise to the neocons that very few nations lined up behind its coalition of the willing.

THe US might have the biggest military in the world, but its practically useless in a war against a modern power, (the American electorate would never tolerate an optional war with more than 10,000   casualties and the extra taxes that come along with it)
Its military is only useful in beating 5th rate armies in 3rd world nations. Its like beating up a baby with a baseball bat.

when only 2% of the IRaqi population see the US as liberators its time to go home. The insurgents wont go home, because they already are home.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 04:19 PM

Fine, let's get out and leave the children and the hungry to the insurgents. maybe they can be lined up against the wall and done away with as Saddam would have done. That's how the problem can be solved.

Let's let the insurgents win!


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:26 PM

Guest Petr: everyone is entitled to his/her opinion but your last post was, in my opinion of course, pure unadulterated hog wash.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:36 PM

"Its military is only useful in beating 5th rate armies in 3rd world nations."

I would and do disagree with this statement. The USA has a remarkable military with technology to back it up. The problem has always been and continues to be that of 'legs'. The US is more than capable of fighting a war in Irag. In fact, it is doing so. However, the days of being able to fight TWO wars overseas are gone. That it can no longer do without invoking ABC warfare. That is what we ALL should be worried about. The American leadership is facing bankruptcy and the possibility of civil unrest (else why have 'detention' camps set to go). IMO, it has NO option BUT to push for global control. What does it have to lose but its national debt which has to be close on six TRILLION dollars. The Euro is becoming THE currency, and China (PRC) is breating fire into the world economy. The Neocons are more than aware of this--it being they who have helped bring the situation about.

And, it being they who have so much control in DC right now.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Peace
Date: 18 Apr 05 - 08:36 PM

PS

Democracy is dead. Has been for many years now.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:35 AM

...and with democracy in Iraq we are once again faced with the problem of a Kurdish homeland. Turkey is standing at attention and so is Iran. The U.S. is backing the Kurds for the time being and the Turks and the Iranians don't like it one bit.

They should have carved out a bit of the middle east for the Kurds following World War II but back then nobody cared. Now that the oil fields are up for grabs, the U.S. is being ever so nice to the Kurds. We back your independence and you give us the oil. Pretty cozy if you ask me.

In the meantime, water is contaminated, ambulances cannot get to hospitals, people can't get to markets and children are starving.

Evil, just plain evil!


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 01:18 AM

Right, dianavan, no doubt about it, Iraq and it's people were so much better off with Saddam. All you have to do is visit the mass graves to confirm that!

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 08:05 AM

Sorry about the anon posting yesterday, I didn't realise I was in cookieless.

Whether Doug likes it or not, the vast majority of Iraqi people were better off before the invasion, and even more relevantly were much better off before 10 years of sanctions by the worlds richest nation and everyone else it could bully into joining in.

Iraqi hospitals and health care were the best in the region and open to all comers. We know this because in those days the UN and Western journalists could travel about the country and see for themselves.

Saddams regime was brutal and dictatorial, however this is not unusual in a areas of constant war where the the conflict is continually stoked and armed by external forces.

The true road to peace and Democracy lies in making peace and democracy more successful than war and oppression.   You cannot teach the world to respect international law and standards when you are the most visible violator of that law and those standards. When you set up Guantanamo to be outside of any law or jurisdiction. When you say in the run up to invading another country that it does not matter what the UN says you are going to wreak destruction on a much smaller and weaker nation how can you criticise any violent actions from anyone with a cause to espouse?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: DougR
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:48 PM

Whether I like it or not is irrelevant. The eight million or so Iraqis who turned out to vote for democracy are the ones who count. I seriously doubt, given the choice, they would return to Saddam's regime over what they have now. You may think otherwise, but that's your right.

DougR


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 12:52 PM

Sure DougR. Let's let Saddam go and go back to Iraq and take over again.

That would please a few dopes here I believe.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 02:03 PM

well DOugr & Martin Gibson your posts are hogwash too in my opinion, but
who cares, back it up with facts..

brucie, sure the US military is the most powerful in the world, with more spending than anyone else this is not surprising. HOwever the American public takes a dim view of high casualties, and in a battle with modern military power (not an underequipped, demoralized third world army such as Iraqs) they would have much higher casualties.
If you had more than 10,000 killed in an optional war the US public would not accept that nor the taxes that come with it.

what the Iraq war was about was global hegemony for the US, as the project of the Alqaeda Islamists collided with and energized the project of the Neocons.
The irony is that the US already enjoyed much of those benefits of being the dominant economic power. And the danger is that the international law and dialogue of the UN kept the major powers at bay for the last 60 years. Now the US has taken the step to go back to alliances and the law of the jungle (that we had prior to wwII).
Notice that Russia has also claimed the right to use preventive wars in its own defence.

another undeniable fact is, that the US economy (and with it its power ) is declining the Dollar is going the way of the pound sterling.
The US $ has dropped 50% in value to the EUro, not only are Europeans
going on shopping trips to the US they are buying up their puffed up real estate.

of course even though many other countries might like to see a collapse of the US $ to teach America a lesson, it in their interest to prevent that ..because it would hurt the whole global economy.

Its only a matter of time before China outpaces the US economy (how many flat screens are manufactured in the US? zero, its all moved to Asia) even innovation is being outsourced, tech manufacturers have moved design and engineering over to Asia, and concentrate on the marketing after slapping on a design or brand (read Marchs Business Week)

if youre probably fed a diet of Fox, Hannity, and the typical biased US media you might want to look up some alternative views.
such as this
or read his book Future Tense..

the neocons goal of Pax Americana is not some kind of conspiracy theory - they ve outlined it in speeches and publications. Wolfowitz readily admitted in Vanity Fair that they "finally settled on Iraqs WMD for various bureaucratic reasons..."


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 19 Apr 05 - 03:21 PM

Petr, want to buy an "e"?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: beardedbruce
Date: 20 Apr 05 - 04:16 PM

brucie,

"However, the days of being able to fight TWO wars overseas are gone. That it can no longer do without invoking ABC warfare. That is what we ALL should be worried about. "


First of all, I agree with the first statement. The US can no longer fight two major wars at the same time, thanks to the Clinton Administration. This DOES force us to consider the use of nuclear weapons, where would would not have needed to, before. A pity that the liberals will not take responsibility for their actions in reducing US military capability.



"The American leadership is facing bankruptcy and the possibility of civil unrest (else why have 'detention' camps set to go)."

This has no basis in anyy facts you have presented- it is merely your opinion. I have given you alternate reasons for the camps, and the lack of publicity, but YOU insist they are for detention of civilians due to political unrest- the burden of proof of this is on you.
Your statement about


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: dianavan
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:00 PM

From UCBerkeley News:

"Despite what he called the "farce of an election" in January, Jamail said, the vast majority of Iraqis want the U.S. to leave. The reasons, he added, are all too obvious: Security remains inadequate, car bombs are "almost an everyday occurrence," and most of the country has electricity no more than three hours a day. With death and disease rampant, the healthcare system is in crisis, as hospitals grapple with shortages of medicine, supplies, and clean water, a lack of working equipment, and an ongoing "brain drain" of doctors fleeing the country for safety.

In Falluja, a stronghold of Iraqi insurgents where U.S. forces staged an all-out assault last November, conditions are far worse, Jamail said. Most of the city has been "bombed to the ground," he said, creating a massive refugee crisis in which "people with literally nothing" have nowhere to return to: "There's no water, no electricity, no jobs, and no reconstruction."

Do you still think Iraqis are 'better off' now that the U.S. is there promoting democracy?


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 11:13 PM

Yes, I do.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,RobbieWilson
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 05:04 AM

It is telling when you see people lamenting US ability to conduct two wars overseas simultaneously. Why anyone should aspire to conducting wars overseas is beyond me. Of course when you have huge industrial and financial investment in producing weaponry you have an interest in creating the demand for weaponary.

The massive investment in technological weaponary has focussed on being able to wreak destruction and death from a safe distance. That way it is so much easier to ignore the fact that people are being slaughtered. It makes destruction posssible but does not help in anyway create conditions for a peaceful hatred. Rather it builds a well of resentment and rejection of Western values which will last for generations.

It seems to me unlikely that any of this is accidental. The destruction of the infrastructure, in particular water, sewage,power and communications had nothing to defeating Saddams army but was a key ingredient in ensuring that Iraq was not an independent and strong economy with a place in world affairs because of the oil under its land.

The whole point of Democracy is that the biggest strongest and most violent member of the community does not dominate what happens but that even the powerful attempt to convince the rest of the community and abide by the majority position. When you start a war making it clear that regardless of what the UN say you are going ahead anyway, threaten smaller nations that to not support you is to open yourself to financial sanctions and ruin you need to be pretty thick skinned to pretend that this has anything to do with democracy.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:47 AM

when youre talking about conducting two wars simultaneously, in the case of the US it would be low level wars against 3rd world nations -
because any modern army would inflict high casualties..

the real question is not technological superiority, but rather the willingness of the US population to absorb high casualties and high taxes that are part of the package. In the case of Iraq, the Bush administration still played on the fear after 9/11. but had not 9/11 occurred it unlikely that there would be much support for an optional war.


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Subject: RE: BS: This is democracy?
From: Once Famous
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 03:16 PM

Overcoming Liberalism: A 12-Step Program
Written by Jeremy Robb
Monday, January 06, 2003


       Several months ago, I heard radio host Michael Savage refer to liberalism as a "mental disorder." As odd as this concept might seem, I think I actually agree with him. I've seen liberalism turn some of the most intelligent people I know into propaganda-spewing robots who care only about the message, not the inaccuracies behind the message. Emotion always trumps logic for them, regardless of the blatantly obvious.



       Given the difficulty in bringing liberals into the light, I thought it might be helpful to provide them with a 12-step program that could make it easier for a successful transition into reality. As conservatives, we have to remember that we can only be supportive to liberals in this program. They cannot do it alone, but we also cannot do it for them.



The Program:



Step 1: Admitting that you're a liberal
       This is the first step for every liberal on the way to recovery. It is important to understand that you're not "progressive," "moderate," or "enlightened." You're a liberal, and you need to be honest with yourself about that fact.



Step 2: Pledge to support your beliefs with facts
       Realize that truth is more important than moral superiority and is the only way to come over to reality. You must research beyond propaganda from the Sierra Club, Hillary Clinton, and CNN (the Communist News Network) to understand things as they really exist in the world. You can no longer argue based on "feelings" or emotion. You will actually need to back up your arguments with real information. This is a difficult step, because it means you can't be lazy any more.



Step 3: Love America
       This may be the most difficult step for those of you who are hippies and peaceniks. Admitting that the country you hate actually stands as a beacon to defend freedom throughout the world can make some of you physically ill. You might want to make a visit to a military cemetery to better understand that these men and women gave their lives so that you could spew hatred. Otherwise, you would currently be living in a police state that would never let you wear that nasty patchouli oil, let alone speak out against your government.



Step 4: Take a college level economics class
       I've always defined a Socialist as someone who's never taken an economics class. Most Socialists I've spoke with would have a hard time balancing their checkbooks, let alone explaining the simple concept of supply-and-demand. It's time to flush your complete ignorance of basic economics down the toilet and understand how the world actually functions. This concept will be very important for the next steps that involve communism, facts about corporations, and the inefficiencies of government.



Step 5: Say "no" to Communism and Socialism
       While this concept is obvious to most of the free world, it is an important step in your recovery process. If you have difficulty with this step, spend a week living and working in Cuba.



Step 6: Corporations are not evil
       If you're reading this article online or in an e-mail, it's thanks to corporations. If you get some kind of paycheck, you can thank corporations. If you work for a non-profit or the government, you still have to thank corporations. The non-profit sector and the government wouldn't have any money to pay you without corporations. It is also important that you understand that making a profit doesn't equate to "greed" or exploitation. Capitalism has created the greatest society in our world's history. Even communist countries need corporations to survive, so enjoy a nice, hot cup of reality.



Step 7: The government is inefficient
       If you are one of those liberals who believe the government should tax us more in order to take care of society, you need to pay special attention to this step. You need to realize that government bureaucracy will waste most of your tax dollars, while the private sector will put your money to much better use. Even most Democrat politicians understand this to some degree, which is why Hillary's socialist healthcare proposal was voted down by a majority of both Democrats and Republicans. Go to your local post office or call the IRS to ask a tax question if you need a reminder about government inefficiency.



Step 8: The earth is not your "mother," and she's not dying
       The time has now come to stop your donations to Greenpeace, The Sierra Club, and every other EnviroNazi organization to which you belong. Face the reality that the earth, society, and our environment are better off today than ever in recorded history and that they are continuing to improve. I realize that many of you tree huggers will have a very difficult time letting go of the Douglas Fir on this one. I would suggest reading The Skeptical Environmentalist by Bjorn Lomborg. Mr. Lomborg is a former member of Greenpeace and is currently a statistics professor at a university in Denmark. He set out to prove the world was in bad shape and ended up surprising himself by proving the exact opposite.



Step 9: Stop smoking the wacky tobaccy
       Okay, some of you might need to enter another 12-step program to complete this step. Marijuana is distorting your sense of reality, and you need to stop using it. Besides, you'll save a fortune on snacks.



Step 10: Eat a hamburger
       If God didn't intend for us to eat animals, he wouldn't have made them out of meat. You can put your sprouts and tofu on the hamburger, but get some meat into you. You'll look and feel better than you ever imagined. You can always remind yourself that Adolf Hitler was a vegetarian to get you through this step.



Step 11: Stop re-writing political history
       It's now time to admit that Bill Clinton is a lying-cheating-sexist-racist-rapist jackass, Hillary Clinton is one of the worst role models for women in this country, Al Gore really did lose the 2000 election by every vote tabulation you attempt, Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War and didn't create the homeless problem, John McCain is not a typical Republican, and Jimmy Carter is a nice man but has one of the worst presidential records of anyone in history.



Step 12: Be a missionary
       Once you have completed the previous steps to overcoming liberalism, it's time for you to share this awakening with others who are not as fortunate. Go out amongst the liberal sheep and spread the good word of your freedom from the chains of ignorance that once bound you. Congratulations, and welcome to reality.


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Mudcat time: 11 August 12:27 AM EDT

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