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The Horrors of Darfur

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BS: Darfur (190)


Amos 23 Feb 05 - 05:11 AM
Wolfgang 23 Feb 05 - 07:33 AM
SINSULL 23 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM
Rapparee 23 Feb 05 - 07:50 PM
Amos 23 Feb 05 - 08:05 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 23 Feb 05 - 08:54 PM
open mike 24 Feb 05 - 04:02 AM
beardedbruce 24 Feb 05 - 04:10 AM
beardedbruce 24 Feb 05 - 07:20 AM
Amos 24 Feb 05 - 09:18 AM
beardedbruce 24 Feb 05 - 09:26 AM
Wolfgang 24 Feb 05 - 09:46 AM
Wolfgang 24 Feb 05 - 09:51 AM
Azizi 24 Feb 05 - 09:56 AM
bflat 24 Feb 05 - 10:09 AM
Amos 24 Feb 05 - 10:14 AM
dianavan 24 Feb 05 - 12:11 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 25 Feb 05 - 11:37 AM
Wolfgang 10 Mar 05 - 07:49 AM
robomatic 10 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM
GUEST,troll 10 Mar 05 - 11:35 PM
Troll 10 Mar 05 - 11:39 PM
DougR 10 Mar 05 - 11:45 PM
dianavan 11 Mar 05 - 02:03 AM
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Subject: Folklore: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 05:11 AM

The murder of hundreds of people is being promoted every day by the government of the Sudan; teenage girls are raped and burned by gangsters hired out as soldiers. The world, on the whole, has kept silence.

This morning the New York Times put four photos from an archive of misery and grotesque, criminal, foaming madness and genocide on their editorial page. This is unusual for the Times. But it is not as unusual as the scale and venomous barbarianism of this wholesale murder of black Africans on a huge scale in an effort to purge Darfur of non-Muslims.

A quote from the Times' coverage, The Secret Genocide Archiive

"'Im sorry for inflicting these horrific photos on you. But the real obscenity isn't in printing pictures of dead babies - it's in our passivity, which allows these people to be slaughtered.

During past genocides against Armenians, Jews and Cambodians, it was possible to claim that we didn't fully know what was going on. This time, President Bush, Congress and the European Parliament have already declared genocide to be under way. And we have photos.

This time, we have no excuse.

E-mail: nicholas@nytimes.com"

A.


See also this thread


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Subject: RE: Folklore: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Wolfgang
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:33 AM

The UN security council also would have called it genocide but for China threatening a veto.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Folklore: The Horrors of Darfur
From: SINSULL
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:47 PM

I have emailed my senators Amos asking what they are doing about genocide in the Sudan. I expect a form letter back. We'll see.
M.


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Subject: RE: Folklore: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Rapparee
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 07:50 PM

Not to be picky, but shouldn't this be BS instead of Folklore?


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Subject: RE: Folklore: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Amos
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:05 PM

I was unwilling to refer to so grave a human tragedy by so flippant a label, so I chose the next best thing.

A


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Subject: RE: Folklore: The Horrors of Darfur
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 23 Feb 05 - 08:54 PM

The thread title chosen - said it.


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: open mike
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:02 AM

I REC'E THIS REQUEST TODAY-IT CONTAINS A LINK TO E-MAIL YOUR U.S. GOV'T REPRESENTATIVES

Subject: Stop the killing...


Read this message and, if your heart guides you,
please forward it to your elected officials...

February 23, 2005
IMPORTANT TO KNOW, IMPORTANT TO ACT
Dear Friends,

I have been increasingly dismayed by reports of genocide in the Sudan, and today I read an article by Nicholas Kristof in the New York Times that broke my heart.

A Sudanese government-backed militia called the Janjaweed is seeking to clear the area of all non-Arabs, pillaging and burning African villages, and already having killed at least 70,000 people. Horribly similar to the Rwandan genocide several years ago, this insanely brutal activity will only continue if we fail to act.

The late Senator Paul Simon said after the Rwandan genocide, "If every member of the (U.S.) House and Senate had received 100 letters from people back home saying we have to do something about Rwanda, when the crisis was first developing, then I think the response would have been different." Former President Bill Clinton has said that his greatest regret is not having taken more action in Rwanda at that time. Genocide in Rwanda is seen in hindsight; however, the tragedy in the Sudan is unfolding right now.

We have power to help stop this, if we use it; you and I can make sure that our Congressional representatives know we care and want to see action. There are in fact various things our government can do -- from sanctions to freezing the assets of those Sudanese officials who support the genocide -- but our government will assuredly not act unless we, the people, raise our voices.

Please go to www.congress.org if you do not already know where to email your Senator and Congressman. Tell them you want the American government to use its strongest influence to stop this tragedy. You can look on www.savedarfur.org or www.darfurgenocide.org for further information about the crisis, in which men, women and children are dying the most horrible deaths even as we speak.

This is a moment to use our democracy, to raise our voices loudly and clearly, and extend our love to those in desperate need. Let us pray for our Sudanese brothers and sisters in need, and do what we can to save them.

All my best,

Marianne Williamson

P.S. Please pass this note along to your friends.


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 04:10 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=73826&messages=97

From Sunday's Washington Post:

"the admnistration will continue to press other countries to press the United Nations to press Sudan's government. The uncertainty of this strataegy was immediately apparent after Mr Powell spoke. Brushing aside the evidence, France and Germany declined to call the killings genocide. ... China, the leading foreign investor in Sudan's burgeoning oil fields, said it might veto a tough Security Council resolution."


thread.cfm?threadid=69879&messages=48



A true pity, Amos, that when the Bush adminstration called it genocide, and the UN disagreed, you felt it was nothing to be concerned over.


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 07:20 AM

thread.cfm?threadid=68040&messages=10


thread.cfm?threadid=68040&messages=10


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:18 AM

A true pity, and a nasty statement on your part, Bruce. I wasn't following the story at the time, true. But there are a million stories I am not following and some of them are really worthy of concern. So what is your point? Did you start a thread about the subject?

I wish you'd get over your mad, whatever it is.

I do see you have spent time posting on the Darfur issue and acknowledge that-- you were involved with it long before I was. And if the Bushites called it genocide, good for them. It certainly looks that way, from the data I have seen.



A


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: beardedbruce
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:26 AM

Whereas the democraps seemed to think the UN was doing just fine....


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:46 AM

Bearded Bruce is too modest to add to the links the first one about Sudan in Mudcat, namely the one he has started:

Sudan

The word 'genocide' has some legal obligations that's why it is still not used in UN documents about Darfur (see the article "Darfur, Sudan: Genocide? What Genocide?"). Many of the reasons for that avoidance I do not share. I think at least political and economic sanctions should be organised by the UNO. As for military action, I am reluctant, for a recent example shows that the effect of such action could be counterproductive, even if the motivation was noble.

As for motives, the motive I see for the US government to insist on the word 'genocide' (demanding UN action) is to ask for a bit of retrospective UN approval of the Iraq adventure or to use it as a distraction. The motives of those who complain about the deaths following the Iraq war but post rarely if at all about this genocide in which Muslims are on the dealing out and on the receiving end are less obvious to me.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Wolfgang
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:51 AM

One link I forgot:
Why Should We Shield the Killers?

(The reasons of the US government to object to prosecution of Sudanese officials for crimes against humanity)

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Azizi
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 09:56 AM

Just because people have not posted to Mudcat threads on Darfur doesn't mean that they are not following the story, acting pro-actively regarding that horrific situation, and/or doing other things to make the world a better place for all.

That being said, I appreciate the concern for humanity exemplified by this thread-but I personally wish it wouldn't deteriorate into a Republicans or vs Democratics match-up.

Azizi


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: bflat
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:09 AM

I've written to my senators and the White House urging them to do something to stop the genocide. I have no clout but to add my voice. My tears aren't going to change anything. I feel helpless. I can't begin to understand the horror these poor people are suffering. i wish I could do more, much more. Nicholas D. Kristof's OP-ED piece in Wednesday's NYTimes should galvanize opinion.

Ellen


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 10:14 AM

Just had to stick the ole blade in, huh? I don't know anyone who says the UN is doing fine, do you? Are are you just projecting again?


A


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: dianavan
Date: 24 Feb 05 - 12:11 PM

I don't think anyone denies that atrocities are happening in Darfur. I agree with Wolfgang that the U.N. is reluctant to use the term genocide because of political implications. I would also agree with Azizi that this thread should not deteriorate into a Republican vs Democrat and I add a Muslim vs Non-Muslim thread. As usual, it is about oil and who controls the oil fields. In this case the people dying are Black Africans. The people in power are Arabs.

The U.N. has been working toward achieving peace in the region but so far nothing has worked. This doesn't mean that the problem is being ignored. It does mean that we should be paying attention and pressuring our govts. to do more.

What I see happening there is Arab and American interests struggling over the oil fields. Unfortunately, it is the Black African farmers that are being forced off their land and slaughtered. Once again it is the innocents who are being killed. Doesn't matter who wins this battle, neither side wants the farmers on that valuable piece of real estate.

So what is the answer? Should the farmers be left to tend the fields in peace? Of course, but it is unlikely. There is too much greed in the world and neither side of this battle will allow that to happen. That is why the whole issue is so confusing. Both sides of the battle will have us believe that it is the other guy who is to blame when, in fact, nobody wants the people of Darfur to retain their homeland.


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 25 Feb 05 - 11:37 AM

No one wants them to stay or return to their homeland. The people don't wish to leave. But just as importantly - no other country really wants them either and they will find many good reasons why these people should stay, suffer and die.

So what is happening and is what has always happened in these circumstances - is that women and children (just like us) will first suffer and eventually be killed (most of the men have already been killed).

While our Governments and official bodies play around with the meaning of words and we allow them to.........Then when it is too late and the full horror eventually is known or can't be denied any longer- everyone will wring their hands and say - 'well if only we had known'.

The world knew in 1942 that the few jewish people who did manage to escape the Nazi's mad intentions, would be returning to more suffering and certain death. That did not stop many counties from returning them at their borders - for the fear of the problem being passed to them.

When countries don't want certain groups of people and there is nowhere to escape to - the results are inevitable - whatever the word you chose to describe it.


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Wolfgang
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 07:49 AM

UN-coordinator Egeland coming back from Sudan speaks of more than 200,000 dead. He blames the African countries (the AU so far insists on African peacekeepers) for not sending enough soldiers (1,400 to date).

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: robomatic
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 08:49 AM

I commend to you all a book I have started: "A Problem From Hell: America In The Age Of Genocide" by Samantha Power. I'm only part way into it but I have found it emininently readable, and contributing in knowledge to the problem and why the world reacts as it does. Ms. Power starts with the killings of the Armenians by the Turks in 1915, and onward and through Rwanda. Since I haven't finished the book, I'll just leave my message here, it's a useful work and would inform this thread.


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: GUEST,troll
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 11:35 PM

If the UN is trying to achieve peace in Sudanat the same level that they tried in Rwanda, the innocents of Darfur are doomed.

troll


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: Troll
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 11:39 PM

'heh' Lost ma cookie.

troll


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: DougR
Date: 10 Mar 05 - 11:45 PM

Open Mike: No offense, but having spent a couple of years working in Washington, D. C., let me assure you, and others, that sending form letters to your Congressperson/Senator has little impact. A hand written message or personalized typed letter is given much more attention than a form letter.

DougR


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Subject: RE: The Horrors of Darfur
From: dianavan
Date: 11 Mar 05 - 02:03 AM

Thats good advice, DougR.


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