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BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.

Leadfingers 31 Jan 05 - 07:28 PM
Leadfingers 31 Jan 05 - 07:29 PM
Amos 31 Jan 05 - 07:45 PM
beardedbruce 31 Jan 05 - 07:57 PM
Joe Offer 31 Jan 05 - 08:31 PM
Once Famous 31 Jan 05 - 09:03 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 31 Jan 05 - 09:43 PM
Boab 31 Jan 05 - 10:12 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 05 - 01:04 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 01 Feb 05 - 01:51 AM
GUEST,Clint Keller 01 Feb 05 - 01:54 AM
Georgiansilver 01 Feb 05 - 03:39 AM
Nerd 01 Feb 05 - 03:55 AM
robomatic 01 Feb 05 - 07:17 AM
Jim Tailor 01 Feb 05 - 07:55 AM
Jerry Rasmussen 01 Feb 05 - 08:34 AM
Davetnova 01 Feb 05 - 08:53 AM
Jim Tailor 01 Feb 05 - 09:02 AM
Amos 01 Feb 05 - 09:24 AM
The DeanMeister 01 Feb 05 - 10:23 AM
EagleWing 01 Feb 05 - 02:33 PM
EagleWing 01 Feb 05 - 02:38 PM
EagleWing 01 Feb 05 - 02:41 PM
Ebbie 01 Feb 05 - 02:42 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 01 Feb 05 - 02:44 PM
EagleWing 01 Feb 05 - 02:45 PM
Nerd 01 Feb 05 - 02:53 PM
Jim Tailor 01 Feb 05 - 03:03 PM
robomatic 01 Feb 05 - 03:27 PM
Rustic Rebel 01 Feb 05 - 04:20 PM
GUEST,Frank 01 Feb 05 - 06:01 PM
Mr Red 01 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM
Joe Offer 01 Feb 05 - 08:04 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 01 Feb 05 - 08:29 PM
Amos 01 Feb 05 - 08:30 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 05 - 08:33 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 05 - 08:43 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 01 Feb 05 - 09:24 PM
GUEST,Clint Keller 01 Feb 05 - 09:33 PM
Once Famous 01 Feb 05 - 10:06 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 05 - 10:21 PM
Jerry Rasmussen 01 Feb 05 - 10:25 PM
Little Hawk 01 Feb 05 - 10:32 PM
Amos 01 Feb 05 - 11:21 PM
GUEST,Wolfgang 02 Feb 05 - 09:07 AM
GUEST,Amos 02 Feb 05 - 09:15 AM
Wolfgang 02 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM
Little Hawk 03 Feb 05 - 01:59 AM
dianavan 03 Feb 05 - 02:49 AM
Nerd 03 Feb 05 - 10:37 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:28 PM

100 !!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Leadfingers
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:29 PM

Well it would have been if Rustic hadnt been posting at the same time as me !!


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Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Amos
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:45 PM

This thread is reee-dickle-dockle!!


A


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Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: beardedbruce
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 07:57 PM

GS,
I am glad you have found what you have, but...

Matthew 24:23- So if you need to tell us about it, are you not (possibly) deceived?


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Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
From: Joe Offer
Date: 31 Jan 05 - 08:31 PM

Hmmmm. We certainly have been heavy on religion the last several days. All I see is bigotry, in all directions. Is there a way we can find tolerance and respect in all this?
  • Is there a way for an atheist to look at an evangelical Christian who's a good person, and see that person's beliefs as an integral and valuable part of what that person is?
  • Can an evangelical Christian look at an atheist and see the same?
  • Can a progressive Christian look at an Evangelical and see goodness?
  • Evangelicals, can you look at "liberals" and see goodness and intelligence and wisdom?

  • Why not?
    -Joe Offer-


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:03 PM

    I would say without any humming whatsover, Joe

    No.
    Because.
      Aw, darn, Martin.
      Say it isn't so.
      -Joe-


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Jerry Rasmussen
    Date: 31 Jan 05 - 09:43 PM

    Would it were so, Joe. Again, I go back to the opening post of the Religous Left thread. There was a time when people could march together, working for a common good. There are still people like that on here, Joe. They just get ridiculed or fouled out by the few. I don't know if intolerance is greater in Mudcat than in the real world today or not. But, I also remember a time when the folk community prided itself on being welcoming of all people without prejudice. It was one of the things that drew me, and many of us I'm sure to the folk community. Now, it seems like the folk community welcomes people who think like the folk community. It was probably always that way. I just didn't notice, I guess.

    Jerry


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Boab
    Date: 31 Jan 05 - 10:12 PM

    Toungue in cheek, like Rabbie Burns---"He tried His 'prentice haund on man---and then He made the Lasses!"
       Ribaldry aside, if My God was ever known in the Old Testament, it was never mentioned in the writings there. I found some marvellous scripture in the O.T.---Proverbs, Song of Solomon are but two examples, ---but I also found some air-headed balderdash about the Earth being mass-produced in six days, Adam and his spare rib, Charlton Heston talking to a burning bush and reappearing with Ten Commandments all neatly sculpted from "tablets of Stone" [was that before or after the Red Sea suddenly dried up just exactly where Moses and his friends needed to keep their feet dry?], Noah and his ark, Lot's wife, and the poor guys who can't "enter the congregation of the Lord" because of some injury to their goolies.
    And a multitude of pointless "begats". Pointless, at least to anything other than Hebrew history, pure and simple.
    The True God got the first emphatic mention in the voice of the Baptist, who saw in Jesus of Nazareth the personification of pure Love.
       He proclaimed the identity of our God then and there. And both John and Jesus died in misery and degradation. I don't think either would approve of Mike's view of Christianity----"Be our kind of Christian, or you'll burn in Hell!" A faith that depends for its existence on direct threats or promise of material reward is no kind of faith at all.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:04 AM

    To answer your questions, Joe...

    Yes.

    To all of them.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: GUEST,Clint Keller
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:51 AM

    I hear that a word for the creator in the Old Testament usually translated as "God" -- "Elohim," if I remember rightly -- is the feminine plural.

    Goddesses, Mr Gibson, GODDESSES!!!

    Can you dig it?

    clint

    No grammatical rationalizations, please.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: GUEST,Clint Keller
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 01:54 AM

    And Christianity can't be disproved, proved, or even defined.

    clint


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Georgiansilver
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:39 AM

    Beardedbruce, I take your quote and do also know to expect false prophets but if you read Matthew 28 v's 19/20..you may understand where my beliefs take me. However, I do acknowledge that I started this thread under pressure and in frustration...because like everyone else...however hard I try to get it right..I fail often.
    I should not have allowed my feelings to rise in the way they did and I have gone some way towards apologising for that.
    Like every other thread on the "Cat" I try to learn something from it in keeping with my beliefs and opinions.
    As for someone suggesting that I have done it for the "attention" mentioned in one of my posts. The attention mentioned refers to the post, not to me personally.
    I have a lot of fun on Mudcat and put in a lot of one liners to try to give others a laugh...to lighten a thread where it gets too intense.
    Perhaps I should stick to doing just that although I do like to see lively debate.
    Best wishes.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Nerd
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:55 AM

    I don't think that's right, Clint. I don't think Elohim is specifically feminine plural.


    El or Eloh=root word for "god" or "deity" (same word as Arabic Allah)
    im=suffix denoting plural

    This is where we get "eloheynu" from also eloh+eynu (our).

    In some areas of the bible, "elohim" refers to various gods of the Hebrews' pagan neighbors, such as the Canaanites' Baal. In other places, it seems to be a "majestic plural" sort of like the "royal we." So if god is referred to as Elohim it does not necessarily mean plural OR female.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: robomatic
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:17 AM

    Mike:
    I guess it depends on what you mean by 'prove.' If one starts out as a disinterested onlooker trying to figure out which is the 'correct' religion (and God hasn't told you already), you could:
    1) Look at the one with most adherents
    2) Look at the one which has changed the least over its history
    3) Look at the one which is most recent
    4) Look at the one which most coincided with your personal beliefs, desires, fears, or habits
    5) Dispassionately compare all with a common yardstick based on the most objective standards you can find
    6) Put all the distinct religious sects you can isolate on pieces of paper, put them in a barrel, and draw one out.

    As it stands, there are more expressions of belief out there than can possibly be true.

    My father's definition of religion is: "The Awe in which we hold our ignorance."


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Jim Tailor
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 07:55 AM

    "I also remember a time when the folk community prided itself on being welcoming of all people without prejudice. It was one of the things that drew me, and many of us I'm sure to the folk community. Now, it seems like the folk community welcomes people who think like the folk community."

    That may be true of your experience, Jerry, but looking at the last fifty years of what we call "Folk", it just doesn't seem objectively probable.

    One of the most significant, influential elements of "Folk" for those fifty years (and longer) has been "protest". If you include labor songs with protest songs you've just included the most significant body of folk in those fifty years.

    And the whole idea behind labor and protest music is to objectify and demonize the enemy as percieved (whether right or wrong in the characterization or not misses the point -- in fact, the harder you argue that "Folk" got it right with their characterization of that enemy, the more you reinforce my point).

    In short, no, "folk" is not inclusive or without prejudice. Its populist and popular strength is in that prejudice.

    It may, in part, explain much rancor that occurs here. When a conservative pops his head up in here (because he enjoys folk from the music angle, or its elements that are not protest oriented) he is intruding in, and threatening the comfort of a closed society that takes great comfort in their unity of belief.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Jerry Rasmussen
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:34 AM

    Interesting comments, Jim:

    I came into the folk community in the early 60's, just before Dylan and the surge of protest songs. Protest songs certainly became a larger part of the folk music repertoire for a few years, although there were plenty of Puff The Magic Dragon's, Michael Row The Boat Ashore, Tom Dooley, Cottonfields songs that were also enormously popular. I think, like everything else, each of us defines folk music by what we bring into it. I marched and sang in anti-war demonstrations and wrote some protest songs of my own, but as such, protest songs were never my primary interest in folk music. I loved the old ballads, fiddle tunes, southern mountain music and old gospel most. Given a choice of listening to the Carter Family or a song about Joe Hill, the choice was easy for me.

    Back in the late 50's and early 60's, I felt welcomed and very comfortable in the folk community. Felt right at home. Politics and religion were rarely talked about (this was in Greenwich Village,) although I know there were circles where politics WERE very important.
    There was a fair amount of experimenting with drugs, but I could move in the folk circle, being "straight," without a problem.

    (I think I'll start a thread on this, Jim... I'd appreciate your perspective on it...)

    Jerry


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Davetnova
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:53 AM

    Chistianity exists. It is a provable fact. There are many, many people who subscibe to it as a religion and who believe sincerely in it's tenets and derive much comfort and solace from it. What cannot be proved (or disproved) are the premises that it is built around. These are a matter of faith and faith needs no proof. Every man has his own and each man's faithis right in his own heart.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Jim Tailor
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:02 AM

    "faith needs no proof."

    Maybe. And ultimately. But it is rarely, if ever, arrived at without evidence. And it is ever held in tension by understanding that not all can ever be known on the one hand, and constant re-examination of data on the other.

    Have a splendid day!


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Amos
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:24 AM

    The Awe in which we hold our ignorance

    What a perfectly splendid description of the mass silliness which passes for spiritual pursuits in many parts of this weary planet, Robo.

    The whole idea of proselytization, which began this thread, is paradoxical, since it is an organizational and material response to what is notionally a highly personal and revealed metaphysical event.

    I feel like Spock with that puzzled look on his face, saying "This is not LOGical!". :D Which makes the invitation to use a logical process on it even more absurd.

    If I were to assert my views with the same fervor as Mike has seen fit to offer to others in this thread, it would start some cats among the pigeons indeed, and no one would be the better for it, so I shall considerately bite my lip.

    A

    A


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: The DeanMeister
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:23 AM

    What a load of b*llocks.

    I love my life, I love my friends, I love my family. I don't feel the need to conform to mass brainwashing in order to belong.

    Face it, guys, we're here for a few years. Enjoy it, be nice to people, look after our world, and then die. Whatever "faith" I may have had died sometime ago. People kill themselves, and others, every day because of their particular "faith". It's rather overrated as a force for good, in my opinion.

    It's about time all that stopped, don't you think? When man finally stops inventing crap about a ficticious afterlife, he may start to make the one we live in a better place.

    Incidentally, I was an altar boy. Shalom.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: EagleWing
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:33 PM

    "God created man in his image.
    He didn't create man in her image.
    She came next from his rib if I remember right.
    So cut the crap, please. I'm certainly not buying that shit."

    Since you can't be bothered to do your own research, Gen: 1v27 reads "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them."

    The verse numbering may be different in the Torah but you will find that passage there. The rib bit (if you want to take any of this literally) is about method, not priority.

    Frank L


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: EagleWing
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:38 PM

    Rustic Rebel says "but I would like to say that all this bogus crap about women in the bible"

    Quote me some, Rustic. Then perhaps we can discuss it.

    Frank L.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: EagleWing
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:41 PM

    Joe Offer says "Hmmmm. We certainly have been heavy on religion the last several days. All I see is bigotry, in all directions. Is there a way we can find tolerance and respect in all this?
    Is there a way for an atheist to look at an evangelical Christian who's a good person, and see that person's beliefs as an integral and valuable part of what that person is?
    Can an evangelical Christian look at an atheist and see the same?
    Can a progressive Christian look at an Evangelical and see goodness?
    Evangelicals, can you look at "liberals" and see goodness and intelligence and wisdom?"

    I am an evangelical Christian and the answer to all those questions is "Yes".

    But maybe it's different in the US?

    Frank L


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Ebbie
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:42 PM

    This reminds me of a conversation I had years ago. I had remarked that if the story of Adam and Eve is true, those people did not have navels. The person said, Why not?? I said, Think about it- why do we have navels? If we had not been born, we would not have navels.

    He said, Well, God could give them one. I think they had one.

    End of conversation.

    As to a god being judged male or female in a male-dominated society, the answer isn't hard to guess. Kind of like some people's idea of heaven having streets of gold. Gold is sterile; nothing would grow. It is just aknowledging man's vision of wealth and well being. If there is a heaven, it is overwhelmingly green, the color of life. IMO


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: GUEST,Clint Keller
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:44 PM

    C'mon, Nerd, I specifically asked for no grammatical rationalizations.

    How about this:
    " …1 Samuel 28:13. The witch of Endor tells Saul that she sees 'gods' (elohim) coming up out of the earth; this seems to indicate that the term was indeed used simply to mean something like 'divine beings' in ancient Israel."

    The way I heard it "El" or "Eloh" or "Eloah" is grammatically feminine, although "-im" is a masculine suffix.

    I think there's no doubt that Elohim is plural, though. The "majestic plural" was doubtless devised by monotheistic revisionists.

    On the other hand, I don't know any Hebrew; it's all hearsay to me. Just wanted to needle Mr Gibson a little.

    clint


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: EagleWing
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:45 PM

    Clint said "I hear that a word for the creator in the Old Testament usually translated as "God" -- "Elohim," if I remember rightly -- is the feminine plural." and NERD disagreed.

    Actually I think it is "El Shaddai" that has feminine connotations - but if anyone with a better knowledge of Hebrew than mine disagrees, I'll back down on that.

    Frank L.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Nerd
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 02:53 PM

    I learned Hebrew as a child and forgot most of it. But I do have the advantage of you on that!

    I don't think the majestic plural was made up any more than the royal we is made up.

    People do weird things with grammar when power relations are concerned. And as for the elohim meaning "deities," yes, that's exactly what I said: "'elohim' refers to various gods of the Hebrews' pagan neighbors, such as the Canaanites' Baal."

    There is actually a strong feminine aspect to god in mystical Judaism, and "el Shaddai" is part of it, I think. Oddly, Leonard Nimoy was involved in a book about this a few years ago...the second time Spock has come up on this thread!


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Jim Tailor
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:03 PM

    But maybe it's different in the US?

    Not in my experience.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: robomatic
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 03:27 PM

    I have long had an immediate antagonistic reaction to the notion of proselytizing. BUT, I have also lived long enough to learn that a lot of my immediate reactions are misplaced or fear based. And I was once in the Bishop Museum in Honolulu where the Polynesian guide went on about the 'moral incursions' made by missionaries in her community. "But," she said, "they also brought us the written language and that was worth everything else!"

    Re: masculine or feminine God. Dennis Prager gave a talk on that that I attended. He's a conservative Jewish opiner who is not as intransigent as Rush but a lot smarter than Bill. He has a limited radio syndication and a website. His take on God was that obviously God encompassed male and female, but Prager favored continuing to use the male reference as is traditional because while you must love God you must also fear God. I'm concatenating his thought process but that's how I understood it.

    Reform Jewish prayer is tending to equalize male and female references within prayer readings, and using neutral references to God. I personally find it awkward. Reconstructionist Jewish prayer is more through in pursuing these ends than is Reform. I haven't been to a Conservative Jewish service lately so I don't know what they're doing. All branches of Jewish worship allow female rabbis except for the Orthodox.

    Rightly or wrongly I think the result is to emasculate God without feminizing God. I don't see the benefit.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Rustic Rebel
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 04:20 PM

    I see I'm getting pulled back into this conversation. (There is another thread that I posted to, as I mentioned, but just for you Frank
    (Posted previous)-Timothy 2:8-15

    8-I want men everywhere to lift up holy hands in prayer, without anger or disputing.
    9-I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, 10-but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.
    11-A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12-I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. 13-For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14-And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. 15-But women will be saved through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
    That's a start on what I mean by bogus- More-
    Proverbs 12:4
    A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband; but she that maketh him ashamed is as rottenness in his bones.
    How about this one- Leviticus 20:18
    If a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness, he hath discovered her fountain,and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from their people. How about -
    Leviticus 21:7
    Thou shall not take a wife that is a whore or profane; neither shall they take a woman put away from her husband: for he is holy unto god.

    Okay really that's more than I want to say on this, I was actually trying to make things light on the subject but you asked.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: GUEST,Frank
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:01 PM

    Mike, your proselytizing has no teeth. It's robotic. It's jingoism,
    sloganism and not coming from a place of compassion because it rolls off your tongue like a recording.

    No one in their right mind wants to disprove Christianty. Many might question it's validity. You are not completely right just because you say you are by parroting phrases.

    A true conviction comes from humility and having lived life. You are consigning people to the devil which immediately invalidates your conviction. Who are you to do so?

    Jesus was, if nothing else, compassionate for those who suffered indecision and doubt. When you read what we know of his words, he didn't rant and rave at disbelievers the way you do.
    He did rail at injustice as any human being, religious, atheist, agnostic who has real compassion does.

    But if we have to quote the Bible, remember the part that says,
    "Those who sayeth Lord Lord may not always enter the Kingdom."

    In short, cool it. If you really believe it, it will show in your actions and not in your harrangues.

    Frank


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Mr Red
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 06:45 PM

    I believe but I can't prove that belief is beyond proof.

    Not original but still wit and wisdom in one.

    Flesh is normal, provable. Spiritual is not - we believe it though. Well some do. Personally I absorb spirits. by Osmosis, and too much of that and you get to talk to god on the big white telephone.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Joe Offer
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:04 PM

    Well, it's beyond proof, but it's reasonably reasonable...

    Those of us who believe have experienced what we believe in one way or another. I can't prove my wife loves me, either - but I certainly have experienced it, and it's a wonderful, joyful, mysterious thing.

    -Joe Offer-


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Jerry Rasmussen
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:29 PM

    Good point, Joe... always gets back to love. Trying to witness for Christianity by talking about people who don't agree with going to Hell might be done out of love, I suppose, but it sure don't come off much that way.

    As they say, "the proof is in the pudding." If you want to show the value and integrity of the Christian message, just live it.

    Jerry


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Amos
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:30 PM

    All actual belief brings about the experience called for by the belief. This is not true of intellectual belief, but it is true of the deeper-seated core beliefs that make up the actual construction of world-views, by postulating structures of knowing in which to view and operate in the world.   This also extends to a hypnotic belief in the materiality of all space-time.


    A


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:33 PM

    Yup. Always gets back to Love. If it's loving, it's of God. If it's not, it isn't.

    Clearly, I do not buy into the idea of a wrathful God, a vengeful God, a jealous God, a punishing God...or that one should "fear" God. Not one bit do I buy into any of that.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 08:43 PM

    Amos - You are so right.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Jerry Rasmussen
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:24 PM

    "A hypnotic belief in the materiality of all space-time?"

    Is that anything like the incongruent plurality of bimodal clandestiny?

    Speeka da English, Amos... :-)

    Jerry


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: GUEST,Clint Keller
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 09:33 PM

    "El Shaddai" might be what I was thinking of; as I said I don't know any Hebrew.

    I would suspect that originally the "gods" created the world, but after the Jews became monotheists "gods" became the Majestic Plural to reconcile present practice with past records.

    And the royal (& editorial) "we" must have been made up at some time. Language is a creation of humankind.

    But I'm not presenting any of this as scholarship. Just pokinig fun at a nonsensical premise of G. Silver's and some nonsensical assertions by Martin.

    clint


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Once Famous
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:06 PM

    Robo, I listen to Dennis Prager when I can. Overall, I believe he really has his act together. I also like the traditionalism he referred to and don't really appreciate it being it rewritten in order to be politically correct.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:21 PM

    Jerry - In regard to what Amos said, I shall quote from Bob Dylan concerning Man:

    Man thinks 'cause he rules the earth he can do with it as he please
    And if things don't change soon, he will.
    Oh, man has invented his doom,
    First step was touching the moon.

    Now, there's a woman on my block,
    She just sit there as the night grows still.
    She say who gonna take away his license to kill?

    Now, they take him and they teach him and they groom him for life
    And they set him on a path where he's bound to get ill,
    Then they bury him with stars,
    Sell his body like they do used cars.

    Now, there's a woman on my block,
    She just sit there facin' the hill.
    She say who gonna take away his license to kill?

    Now, he's hell-bent for destruction, he's afraid and confused,
    And his brain has been mismanaged with great skill.
    All he believes are his eyes
    And his eyes, they just tell him lies.


    But there's a woman on my block,
    Sitting there in a cold chill.
    She say who gonna take away his license to kill?

    Ya may be a noisemaker, spirit maker,
    Heartbreaker, backbreaker,
    Leave no stone unturned.
    May be an actor in a plot,
    That might be all that you got
    'Til your error you clearly learn.

    Now he worships at an altar of a stagnant pool
    And when he sees his reflection, he's fulfilled.
    Oh, man is opposed to fair play,
    He wants it all and he wants it his way.

    Now, there's a woman on my block,
    She just sit there as the night grows still.
    She say who gonna take away his license to kill?


    (In particular: note the lines in italics.)

    Other than that, I can direct you to at least 2 books that are great, and they explain exactly what Amos was alluding to.

    George


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Jerry Rasmussen
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:25 PM

    Maybe you can translate my friend Amos into English, LH? :-)

    Jerry


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 10:32 PM

    He's a very heady guy with words, Jerry. :-) I'll PM you about the books.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Amos
    Date: 01 Feb 05 - 11:21 PM

    Jerry:

    Core beliefs, the kind that you build with your very being, are often transparent because you are so much one with them they appear as your point of view, not as something you see from your point of view.

    This includes the kind of "blind faith in scientific proof" that dictates to the believer that it doesn't matter what he believes, mechanism is what rules.

    Belief brings about experience. If the deep belief is that this is not the case, then that is what will be experienced. It happens that way because belief brings about experience.

    To change a belief of this sort you have to be able to exist at an energy level that is higher than the energy level you used to construct the belief. Sometimes this seems difficult, depending on the belief system you hold.

    Does this make any more sense?


    A


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: GUEST,Wolfgang
    Date: 02 Feb 05 - 09:07 AM

    Disproving another person's opinion is about as foolish an undertaking as inviting another to disprove one;s own.

    Opinions ain't facts and can't be facts
    (Amos)

    Very wise words. You have said what had bothered me most about GS's approach. Georgiansilver comes over for me like a man having no respect for people not sharing his opinions.

    I know you couldn't deal with too much praise, Amos, therefore:
    ...a hypnotic belief in the materiality of all space-time. (Amos) really can't be understood (third time today, BTW, in completely unrelated threads, that Little Hawk praises a post which I thought made no good sense). 'Hypnotic' means inducing hypnosis or sleep. Let me guess you meant 'hypnotized'.

    Wolfgang


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: GUEST,Amos
    Date: 02 Feb 05 - 09:15 AM

    I think I meant hypnotic; once you agree that materiality is all-dominant and all-embracing (i.e., that spiritual existence is non-entitiy), then you are limited in your being to that of a view point in the material universe; the consequence of which is that you are sitting at the receipt of incoming signal all the time, light and sound and nervous impulses constantly coming in in orders of magnitude far beyond an individual ability to match. This tends to fixate the attention and have a hypnotic effect which induces a sort of dulled, half-witted, unimaginative state of mind. That's my take on it, anyway.

    A


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Wolfgang
    Date: 02 Feb 05 - 03:08 PM

    I know what you mean, Amos, and it doesn't really spirit.
    But, on the content side, why do you consider this belief of all possible hypnotic and not for instance the belief you have? Because your belief does not induce a sort of dulled, half-witted, unimaginative state of mind? Your tolerance level for other approaches to the world seems to approach GS's level.

    Wolfgang


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Little Hawk
    Date: 03 Feb 05 - 01:59 AM

    Well, it's just an alternative viewpoint, that's all. And it's worth considering.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: dianavan
    Date: 03 Feb 05 - 02:49 AM

    Its well worth considering, Amos, when you see it everyday like I do.

    When people become fixated on material gain, their thoughts are so directed that they do not allow themselves to be swayed from their objective by spiritual affairs or imaginative endeavors.

    The balanced human being makes room for all that life has to offer and doesn't separate or try to establish a strict heirarchy of need.

    Not quite there myself but its certainly something to strive for and leaves plenty of room for respect.


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    Subject: RE: BS: Disprove 'Christianity'...You can't.
    From: Nerd
    Date: 03 Feb 05 - 10:37 AM

    Nice try, Clint, with "all grammar is invented." But what I was actually disagreeing with was your statement that:

    "The 'majestic plural' was doubtless devised by monotheistic revisionists."

    In other words, invented after the fact to rationalize the appearance of the plural. I was saying that it is common where power relations are concerned for the plural to be used for singular entities, as with the "royal we." If in five thousand years someone tried to claim that England's monarchy REALLY consisted of a junta who remained behind closed doors, and used as evidence "we are not amused," they'd be making the same argument as you: The Hebrews REALLY believed in many gods, and here is this plural word to prove it. It's not a very convincing argument to anyone with a background in sociolinguistics.

    Having said that, early Judaism isn't really clear on the question of whether other gods even exist. Even in the ten commandments it says "no other gods BEFORE ME," suggesting that other gods might be okay, as long as they were subservient to God. And the bible does use "elohim" to refer to the many pagan gods that other peoples believed in.

    By now, I hope this is getting far to esoteric to be offensive!


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