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BS: Censorship on Mudcat

Bill D 24 Apr 05 - 05:44 PM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 05:27 PM
GUEST,Veteran Member 24 Apr 05 - 05:17 PM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 04:04 PM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 01:00 PM
Bill D 24 Apr 05 - 12:56 PM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 12:43 PM
Bill D 24 Apr 05 - 12:14 PM
GUEST,Jon 24 Apr 05 - 07:39 AM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 07:01 AM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 06:46 AM
GUEST,Jon 24 Apr 05 - 06:20 AM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 06:12 AM
George Papavgeris 24 Apr 05 - 04:59 AM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 04:40 AM
GUEST,Jon 24 Apr 05 - 03:34 AM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 03:02 AM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 02:54 AM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 02:38 AM
The Shambles 24 Apr 05 - 02:36 AM
The Shambles 22 Apr 05 - 12:06 PM
Joe Offer 22 Apr 05 - 11:47 AM
Paco Rabanne 22 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Apr 05 - 11:11 AM
GUEST 22 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM
Paco Rabanne 22 Apr 05 - 11:04 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Apr 05 - 10:55 AM
GUEST 22 Apr 05 - 09:48 AM
Paco Rabanne 22 Apr 05 - 09:47 AM
Paco Rabanne 22 Apr 05 - 09:39 AM
George Papavgeris 22 Apr 05 - 09:33 AM
George Papavgeris 22 Apr 05 - 09:32 AM
George Papavgeris 22 Apr 05 - 09:31 AM
George Papavgeris 22 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM
George Papavgeris 22 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM
Paco Rabanne 22 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM
John MacKenzie 22 Apr 05 - 08:47 AM
The Shambles 22 Apr 05 - 07:41 AM
The Shambles 22 Apr 05 - 07:14 AM
Paco Rabanne 22 Apr 05 - 06:58 AM
Ebbie 21 Apr 05 - 06:42 PM
John MacKenzie 21 Apr 05 - 06:33 PM
frogprince 21 Apr 05 - 06:27 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 21 Apr 05 - 01:44 PM
GUEST,jeffp 21 Apr 05 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,The Shambles 21 Apr 05 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,jeffp 21 Apr 05 - 10:42 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 21 Apr 05 - 10:34 AM
GUEST,jeffp 21 Apr 05 - 10:22 AM
GUEST,The Shambles 21 Apr 05 - 10:05 AM
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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:44 PM

from what I've see, El Greco has no problem signing his posts.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:27 PM

Is that El Greko again?


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Veteran Member
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 05:17 PM

This thread is getting a bit like Little Hawk's process for making "Shatner" into a Mudcat icon-- LH deliberately repeated the name/concept frequently enough that it would become part of Mudcat reality that Wiliam Shatner IS an icon. He says himelf that he set out to do just that. And it worked.

Now it's Shambles, attempting to construct a negative icon. See him including references in nearly every post now that what Joe does when he edits is "impose his personal taste."

I don't think Joe actually does that.... instead, as an editor should, he does a pretty good job of reflecting the broad diversity of Mudcat when he consolidates and retitles things.

That's exactly what an editor is supposed to do. Anyone who does that job in any setting carries that responsibility. They are entrusted with that responsibility because they will be loyal NOT to their personal tastes and opinions, but to the task they have been given and the tastes of the material's market.

I think Shambles actually has hurt feelings over a very few editing actions and editor's insertions that had to do with his own posts, and that he's using the hurt as a basis for slanting his evaluation of ALL Joe does. He's not honest enough to say he felt hurt, and launches a censorship battle instead. To equate hurt feelings and "the sky is falling" over "lost freedom" is really not fair play.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:04 PM

The indexing of a library's contents - do not involve re-naming the author's titles to the personal tastes of those employed by the library. I suspect these individuals would not be employed for very long - if they attempted such an impractical thing which showed so little respect for their authors.

After posting the above - I had to smile when I saw these two thread titles together.

Self-test For Literature Abusers   
Censorship on Mudcat


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 01:00 PM

Subject: RE: BS: Ratzinger is the new Pope
From: Tam the man - PM
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 11:27 AM

Why are these 'guests' frightend to give their names, as I say these 'guests' are cowards.

I mean if you're going to run down everyone on this site including please have the balls to give a name.


As it is clear that anonymous posting never has and never will be generally thought a good thing - perhaps the idea that it is OK for anonymous volunteers - (who are not prepared to use their name) to impose their judgement on fellow posters - (who are) - can be reviewed?


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 12:56 PM

Max, himself, already judged that he wanted a few editors, with one chief editor. Most everyone seems to be happy with that arrangement...only one member chews on the issue until it is ragged and soggy.

But, a boy needs a hobby......


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 12:43 PM

You only require one 'editor' imposing arbitary judgements based on their persoanl taste - for us to argue forever about the merits of each imposed change. That is what it appears that we have been doing ever since this routine imposition was introduced and what we will continue to do - if there is not a review and a change.

If these changes to thread titles and general tinkering are thought to be needed - why was the imposed change to the 'Romans' thread thought by Joe Offer to be going too far - and changed back by him? This as a result of his personal opinion and taste - when in the personal opinion and taste of the still and equally trusted volunteer - it was a change that required to be imposed.

To avoid all of this - perhaps it will be better from now on for us to have no 'editor' and to leave what a poster chooses to say - as a mattter for them only? And for our volunteers to concentrate on enabling this by only responding to requests from posters for changes to their own contributions? Max himself can judge if he wishes the few extreme contributions to remain on his website


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Bill D
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 12:14 PM

"We could all argue forever about the merits of each imposed change..."...yup...seems like forever already.

- "(that is why it is better not to impose one's personal taste and judgement upon others)"...nope...contrawise. That is why it is better to have a limited number of 'editors' acting on one one basic set of guidelines.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:39 AM

What is so wrong with the advanced search?

There is not a lot wrong with the search facilities here, Only problem is if you have 20 threads on a subject they might find 20 threads for a user to wade through whereas if threads are combined a user has fewer and it's much easier reading through one consolidated thread that skipping through several.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 07:01 AM

Such as.....

0.7967 - Thread - Message - RE: Cyril Tawney - Dec 1 2002 9:56PM -   Joe Offer
Summary: Somebody mentioned Stanley the Rat in a thread, and that motivated me to cross-index all our Cyril Tawney threads and songs. For me, Cyril Tawney was one of the high points of Whitby Folk Week this year, and I made a point to see him several times during the week. He's like an overgrown elf, with a perpetual twinkle in his eye.


Were this an artist that was not to Joe Offer's personal taste - perhaps they would not have been subject to the special treatment that Joe Offer decided to give to Cyril? In that case - they or their supported may think The Mudcat Forum is subject to the personal tastes of one contributor...........?


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:46 AM

What is so wrong with the advanced search?

It would seem that - without any imposition by any anonymous volunteers upon fellow posters (without their knowledge or agreement) - it is now perfectly possible (using this facility) to find anything that any poster could possibly wish to find on our forum.........


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:20 AM

It is simply asking that all contributions be equally respected - as generally they have been.

They are in the sense that all contributions may be subject to editorial action performed by the people entrusted by Max to perform such tasks,


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 06:12 AM

The indexing of a library's contents - do not involve re-naming the author's titles to the personal tastes of those employed by the library. I suspect these individuals would not be employed for very long - if they attempted such an impractical thing which showed so little respect for their authors.

If it were a matter of accepting an imperfect world - would any attempt to improve it be equally futile?

I think that I am asking for acceptance of this imperfect world - where contributors say and do what they wish and not what someone would prefer they said or did.

I am not asking that these changes do not take place - simply that they are not imposed without the poster's knowledge or agreement. That is not expecting any sort of world perfection. It is simply asking that all contributions be equally respected - as generally they have been.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:59 AM

Roger, you said "My main point is that "our" indexing process does not seem to involve obtaining the agreement of the contributors. When the issues here - like whether a thread is combined into one - left as the poster made it - or have a link to others - are largely a question of personal taste - as Jon's post indicates..

It is a logical point, but not a practical one, for the same reason that libraries do not obtain the authors' or publishers' permission when they index their material, but they do the indexing according to their own, often arbitrary rules. But we live with that, even if sometimes you find Terry Pratchett variously under "Comedy", or "Science Fiction", or whatever. If the author or publisher feels strongly about the indexing of their work, they can complain and in some cases (not always) effect a change. Most importantly, nobody accuses the libraries of high-handedness for this practice.

If we can live with this practice in the more important world of books and libraries, I contend that we can certainly do so in a web forum.

Your point would be good for a perfect world, where there is ample time to take care of details. In the imperfect world we are landed with, we compromise, because life is too short for the alternative.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 04:40 AM

Music threads are routinely retitled and consolidated and cross-indexed as part of our indexing process, to help make it easier for people to find songs by song title or songwriter name. If space permits, the original thread title is retained, with clarifying words added. Non-music threads are occasionally retitled for clarity, but the need to retitle non-music threads does not arise as frequently because non-music threads are not used for reference.
-Joe Offer-


Yes it is mostly well-intention but perhaps it is as well to forget the fancy words and the 'spin'? Routine censorship imposed by anonymous volunteer posters - upon the invited contributions of fellow posters - without their prior knowledge or permission is what we are talking about here.

My main point is that "our" indexing process does not seem to involve obtaining the agreement of the contributors. When the issues here - like whether a thread is combined into one - left as the poster made it - or have a link to others - are largely a question of personal taste - as Jon's post indicates.

The question is - whose personal taste? Why not mine, Jon's or your's?

As you can't please all of the people all of the time - perhaps it is better that the personal tastes of each contributor are respected and any changes to their contribution are only made with their agreement?   

We could all argue forever about the merits of each imposed change - (that is why it is better not to impose one's personal taste and judgement upon others). But Jon mentioned the Cyril Tawney thread so I will express my personal view on that imposed change.

A link to the two threads would have been better as one was started when he was alive (if very ill) and the others was started after his death. The originator of the later thread - did have the option of refreshing an existing one - but chose to start a new one.

Perhaps poster's freely made choices like this - can be respected by all our volunteers (especially the anonymous ones) - from now on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,Jon
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 03:34 AM

Is a fine folk artist and writer not allowed by our volunteers to have their own separate thread for folk to comment on their passsing?

Isn't that exactly what he has in "Cyril Tawney Obit"?

Each to their own of course but it makes more sense to me to have all the obit messages in one thread rather than having them scattered between 2 threads. The closed (illness) thread contains a link to the thread so it is easy enough follow from one thread to another.

I don't suppose I'd agree with every thread title change, movement of message, etc. (any more than I would agree with every single other editing action) but I neither expect to or need to nor would bother kicking up a fuss it a post of mine was moved or a thread was retitled.

One of the criticisms I had about Mudcat was the difficulties in going back to find information because posts were spread out into multiple threads, some threads contained more than one topic, meaningless thread titles, etc. As such, I think efforts towards making "research" easier are to be applauded.

I suppose it does depend on how you view Mudcat - as a place just for conversation or as a place that allows conversation but also an archive of knowledge. I know Joe is of the same school of thought as me but I would also assume the actions are approved of from above - I can't think why the ability to cross reference threads and the ability to move threads were added by Jeff (under the authority of Max) otherwise - I know of no-one who would program in new facilites that they don't want to be used.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 03:02 AM

This thread title was thought to be perfectly sufficient for 4 years!

Lyr Req: Oh, I was born... [Lunatic's Lullaby]
    Music threads are routinely retitled and consolidated and cross-indexed as part of our indexing process, to help make it easier for people to find songs by song title or songwriter name. If space permits, the original thread title is retained, with clarifying words added. Non-music threads are occasionally retitled for clarity, but the need to retitle non-music threads does not arise as frequently because non-music threads are not used for reference.
    -Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:54 AM

RE: Lyr Req: 'A Thousand Years Today' (Paul Metser)

Changes on the title of this one were imposed twice!

The helpful first reply from open mike (below) was surely enough to ensure that the poster be encouraged, would not be inhibited from posting again and next time they would have posted a more informative title? Without any need for any volunteers to impose any changes?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Lyrics Request
From: open mike - PM
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 08:55 PM

you will be more likely to get a reply if you specify the title of the
song in the title of the thread. (Lyric Request is already labelled as such if you specify that) Welcome to Mud cat and i hope you find
the song. there may be a helper/editor who can fix this for you..
this is an amazing place--glad to have you here.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:38 AM

Cyril Tawney Obit   [21 April 2004]


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 24 Apr 05 - 02:36 AM

Why the 'tinkering' with these? Were any of the originators of these two threads consulted before all these change was imposed? Is a fine folk artist and writer not allowed by our volunteers to have their own separate thread for folk to comment on their passsing? Or as many threads as individual posters may wish to start?

Is it really showing posters (and the subject) respect? And is it so important to interfere with threads in this manner and for volunteers to impose their personal prefences upon fellow posters?

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=80498&messages=104>Cyril Tawney Obit   [21 April 2004]

Messages from multiple threads combined. Most of the messages below are from a new thread.
-Joe Offer-

At least there was a editing comment to say this change had been imposed - but this fact would have been rather obvious anyway.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 12:06 PM

Is anonymous posting to be encouraged?   [Closed]


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:47 AM

Sorry, Ted. I think you miscounted...

Looks like Giok slipped in ahead of you. Sneaky son-of-a-gun, isn't he?
I feel your pain, Ted, but it appears you lost this one. 750 is a really significant number, though....
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:12 AM

700


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:11 AM

Preferred you under the pseudenym George!
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:10 AM

On your marks...........


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 11:04 AM

Thanks for the post though, you miserable sod!


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 10:55 AM

School's out again!
G


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:48 AM

go for it


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:47 AM

But then again.......


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:39 AM

Ta El Greek type person, I will be magnanimous and leave the 700th for Lead Head.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:33 AM

Ted.
(a little help from your friends)


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:32 AM

wouldn't,


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:31 AM

sure you


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM

am


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: George Papavgeris
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 09:30 AM

I


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:54 AM

No no Shambles, I simply posted on the wrong thread. I was looking for pseuds corner. As if I would post simply to beat Leadfingers to the 700th!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 08:47 AM

The Shambles
The Shambles is a bank with several shoal heads three miles East of Portland Bill which should be avoided at all times. In response to numerous requests from the Admiralty and shipowners, Trinity House placed two navigation buoys over the bank in 1824 which were later replaced by a lightvessel in 1859. Today the Shambles Bank is marked by the red sector light from Portland Bill lighthouse and lighted buoys at the east and western extremes of the bank.

The waves go higher than I thought
Giok


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 07:41 AM

Poll-Stop Flaming and Abusive Posting (Closed)


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: The Shambles
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 07:14 AM

Ted - you may just make 700th yet?


Recognize the man in the mirror, Roger?

No just this bloody Arrdvark looking back at me..... [Does someone who calls himself The Shambles - really need to be called any further names?]

Ebbie - I have no wish to have any more power than any other poster. Perhaps it would be wise for you to be a little more suspicious of - and openly question - those who do wish to have more power than other posters?

The facts remain as I evidence here. As I ask is that you and others judge from this evidence.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Paco Rabanne
Date: 22 Apr 05 - 06:58 AM

I saw no synthesis between poetry and ideology, save perchance, the dialectic between chance and reason... oh... sorry... wrong thread!


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: Ebbie
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:42 PM

"Those who (for their own ends) would wish to rule us - have always found that the best way to stay in power - is to invent an outside enemy - for them to protact us from." Roger/ The Shambles

Recognize the man in the mirror, Roger?


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: John MacKenzie
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:33 PM

Aardvark never killed anybody
G


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: frogprince
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 06:27 PM

Now after lovin' me late at night
When it's good for you, babe
And you're feelin' alright
Well you just roll over and turn out the light
And you don't bring me aardvarks anymore


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 01:44 PM

Are these here monologues as tasty as termites?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/2676377.stm

From the above site.

The ancient ancestor of all mammals that give birth to live young - including humans - probably had genetic similarities with the aardvark. The elusive African mammal is a close match to our early cousin in the way its DNA is packaged into distinct bundles, or chromosomes, say scientists.

The last common ancestor of all placental mammals - possibly a shrew-like creature - scurried over the planet hundreds of millions of years ago. It was probably nothing like the modern-day aardvark but could have had a similar set of chromosomes.


All mammals essentially had one common ancestor if you go back in distant time
Prof Terence Robinson


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,jeffp
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 12:02 PM

True


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:45 AM

Yes - I shouldn't waste your time on us 'Earth Pigs'.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,jeffp
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:42 AM

Demonstrating that you are not really interested in dialogue, but rather monologue.


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:34 AM

Us AARDVARKS are just really terrible like that - I guess....


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,jeffp
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:22 AM

Two questions, The Shambles:

What percentage of your day is taken up on tyhis subject?
Have you not got anything better to do?


Reasonable questions. Why are you ducking them?


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Subject: RE: BS: Censorship on Mudcat
From: GUEST,The Shambles
Date: 21 Apr 05 - 10:05 AM

Don't you know that it is official?

Roger isn't the problem anymore. Those that feed him are.

Mick


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